Include a fourth bracket for high income workers. Details are being finalized. From the New York Times, on senator john mccain in his twilight, and unfettered voice against trumpism. The president heads to asia for a 12 nation trip including stops theapan, vietnam and philippines. It is the president s foreign policies that we begin this morning. A New York Times editorial under Trump America surrenders. We want to get your calls on America First. S 202 7488001, republicans. 202 7488000, democrats. And you can join us on twitter or facebook. Thank you for being with us. Thes this editorial from New York Times this morning we want to begin our conversation on globalism versus America First. Under mr. Trump, america surrenders. It reads, in part, as follows. Every president has chosen retreat. T versus he was the president last month at the United Nations. For the diverse nations of the world, this is our hope. We want harmony and friendship. Not conflict and strife. We are guided by outcomes. We have a policy of principal goalsm rooted in shared and values. Confront everyto leader in every nation in this room. Past withidell the complacency, numb to the challenges, threats and wars that we face. Or, do we have enough strength and pride to confront those . Angers today so our citizens can enjoy peace and prosperity tomorrow . If we desire to lift up our then we must fulfill our sovereign duties for the people that we represent. We must protect our nation, interests and their future. We must reject threats to sovereignty from ukraine to the south china sea. We must uphold respect for the orders andt for respect for cultures. And the peaceful engagement these allow. Says went the president peaceful engagement and America First, what does that mean to you . What is the term Foreign Policy mean for you . Comment. Send us a we will show highlights of john mccain in philadelphia giving a speech this past tuesday. And george w. Bush in new york city with a speech in which he did not mention trump by name. Lets get to phone calls. 202 7488001, republicans. , democrats. 00 charles is first up. Good morning. Caller good morning. Yes. Host go ahead, charles. Caller yes. You know, i have always wondered scan they all need to have a cat scan because there could really be something wrong with their brains. Host thank you for the call. Lets go back to the president with the argument about America First saying that terms can apply to different positions that america, for too long, has been losing. The president promises to achieve for and retrench and put America First while condemning it to a secondary role in global deliberations. That was the editorial from the New York Times. To you agree or disagree . Chicago, good morning. I believe in putting America First. If you dont actually q r first, trump is not setting a good example. Be first,are going to we have to be great and donald trump has not set a good example for us being first. That is my comment. Host 202 7488000, democrats. 202 7488001, republicans. Independent callers, 202 7488002. Let me go back to the editorials. Work, the end of the every president has chosen engagement. Ronald reagan consigning the soviet union to the ash heap of do armswent on to controls. There been plenty of examples as a test of the United States and raising questions about the wisdom of policies but on the whole, the world has benefited greatly from americas guidance and willingness to engage in allies every step of the way. Gilbert is up next from birmingham, alabama. Caller this is an interesting topic. Globalism, iabout think of it as a day too late. You cannot even buy products in this country, i cant find a good pair of work shoes that were not made in china. It is a little too late for the America First. Globalism is taking over the economy and where to be go from here . That is why we have a shortfall of jobs. There was no interesting line in the wall street journal concerning about whether we cant make anything of quality in this nation and it is a little bit too late. Host tony, youre next. Good morning. Caller i wanted to make a quick comment about the Charity Event for the hurricane victims . And im so proud of our former president s. I wish that this president would act as though he cares about all formerple as much as our president sue. Politics aside. I didnt agree with a lot of policies of bush and carter and i still respect them. A level of dignity. And there was class in the white house. With this president that we have now . What theseerstand Trump Supporters see in him. I really dont. I wish someone would explain it to me. Because they defend this man no matter what. And i dont understand how they can keep looking the other way. No rules applied to him that has apply to all the former president s and that is what really gets to me. It is like he took the president ial will book with the taxes and everything out the window for the sky. Lets hear republicans colin and respond. Host thank you. We go to jim walsh America First, save america from tyranny. America is the hunger games. Trump doesntt is have a Foreign Policy. He doesnt even know his next move. He wants to be an island. Washingtonle before journal began in texas, this is what it looked like with jimmy carter speaking, joined by george h. W. Bush, george w. Bush, bill clinton, barack obama. All fiveflag living former president s got on stage together in College Station to kick off a benefit concert to raise money for hurricane victims. Trump was not in attendance. This is available on her website. Their public line from philadelphia, good morning. Caller good morning. Are you steve . You guys are all great. Thank you for taking my call. Everybody says that because this is a great show. , wanted to answer the call or maybe it was tony . Trump supporters . I dont see with the big flag is about trump. I havent really seen him do anything super dramatic. I have no diminishing you know, immigrants or anything those populations may have a difference. This is my opinion. To keep my support for trump suppressed around people i know because they react because of too much emotion. Everybody got along. Keep god first. Hopefully i can look back on this and 20 years and trump was ok . I dont even know what the past president s did that was so great. Host thank you for the call. If globalism means invading countries, overthrowing governments, funding rebels that i am against it. On the republican line, john from oregon. Caller good morning. Yes, ok. On the wrong is policy, if he has any policy at all. We have hadwar to republicans and democrats who afford together, number one. And number two, we work with other countries. If we think in the future that we can work alone, we are mistaken. The world is too big and too diverse for one belief. Host thank you, calling in on the republican line. From this past week we have seen nationalism distorted into nagel is him into nativism. We see a fading confidence in the value of free confidence in market and trade. , theyct, instability follow in the wake of protectionism. Security that american threats such as to resume and criminal gangs and Drug Trafficking tend to emerge. In all of these ways. Americans have a great advantage and we only need to remember our values. Host that was george w. Bush speaking this past week. All of our programs are Available Online at cspan. Org. We are using this as a jumping off point to get your thoughts on globalism versus America First. In seeking to liberate the United States from International Obligations and in waging war on multilateral institutions, he has not only destroyed americas remediation as a trusted ally to theted the future same aggressive powers, especially to the authoritarian regimes of china and russia that he purports to protect americans from. The president will be traveling to asia next month. He leaves november 14. Your take on all of this . Caller looking at the picture earlier where trump was addressing u. N. Allies, im wondering, looking at their faces, you can read what they were thinking. They were going back to a time of bush and cheney where there is my way or the highway attitude. When colin powell gave the phony iraq, those countries ask for locations and we wouldnt give it to them. And getting on a bigger point, for george w. Bush to come out eight years of a dead zone with his presidency invading a country that did nothing to us and blowing up the middle east. And then two years after invading iraq said there was no al qaeda in iraq until we invaded it. And now we have trump on steroids and bush is doing a victory lap . Give me a break. Saying the Mainstream Media has bought into the criticized trump move. Annette joins us. Do you agree with the New York Times editorial on americas foreignpolicy . Caller i disagree with what they are saying. And i proud republican respect my President Trump. Global islieve that the opportunity now. Our peoplefocus on in the United States. Clamp am proud of my president and every single day we heard nothing but bashing. I think it is time for the democrats to accept the fact that my president is the president. This is awful. Every single day i have 10 grandchildren and we have a military family with to provide hearts. And every day i have to get on and defend with these people calling me and attacking trump. He hasnt even been in their year. If you have the answers, why dont you run for congress . Number 45, shame on you guys. What example he setting for your children . Host thank you for the call. We go back to the New York Times editorial which reads President Trump is an exuberant realist who thinks in the world in terms of the national interest. The economic powers improving the life of a citizen is useful to the primary goals. It includes employment and predictability in pursuing national ends. Joining us now from lafayette, indiana. Good morning. Caller people should give a. Hought to this if we fail, what will be the consequences . Help us if isis wins. Do you think spain will take care of everybody . In orlando,to sandy florida. Good morning. Caller thank you for taking my call. Listen to how everybody is supporting donald trump but i have a question every day about America First. Why doesnt he, as the first president who wants to bring all of this money in and all this business and stuff back into the United States, by does this Family Business and his business operate all over the world . Especially in terms of manufacturing. Is in trump, her business china. He should set an example. I would like to hear any republicans be able to defend that. Why can they keep their businesses offshore and out of the United States when everything is supposed to be America First and economically trying to drive the business here in the United States . A lot of tweets are coming in, including the following. Rather thanhin , good starting place is to bring troops home from foreign bases. Enough. This, America First is negotiating for america and not withdrawing from the world. From new york city, your take on the Foreign Policy . Caller what is wrong with America First . Theres nothing wrong with that. I dont understand and all of the liberals are knocking from the left. Class, and young say you are disappointed. Instead of saying that we lost, we should try to get together. It is all the liberals, the left , there is nothing wrong. Hillary clinton gave away this country to other countries but what is wrong with trying to help ourselves . We sat down with the former first lady in new york. We will show that tonight at 8 00 eastern time. We have highlights coming up in just a moment. A tweet from charles saying the former president since the collapse of the soviet union made a disaster of the Foreign Policy, especially in the middle east. Send us a tweet. Reporting on meijer reporting on niger. From the hell. Com, the piece begins with the following. Lawmakers are pressing the Trump Administration over the depth of four soldiers earlier this month, questioning the United States presence in the african nation and the support in the region. The pentagon and the white house have faced questions over the incident after it was revealed that the body of one of the soldiers killed in the ambush was recovered two days after the was with reports saying he found nearly a mile from the attack. President trumps delayed response to the ambush has drawn question. We are getting your take on the president s foreignpolicy approach. , republicans. 202 7488000, democrats. The pennsylvania on republican line, diane. Good morning. Comment to the whats would be this policy is viable . America last . That is my comment. I will listen off the air. Host thank you. From oklahoma, on the line for the independent colors. Good morning. Caller good morning. Can you hear me . Host we sure can. Caller yes. I think weocrat but have forgotten the sanctity of the office. With the past president s, even though i may not agree with their policies, i feel they were president. It is the same with donald trump President Trump he is the president. So even though i may not agree with everything he says, i do agree with the sanctity of the office and i think the right and the left want to disagree with each other so much that we are getting nothing done. Office has each separate power. I do not agree with donald trump. Host denniss next from ohio on the democrats line. Good morning. Caller i am confused by the tenor of comments today. Folks who say we should support the president no matter what he does, no matter how he acts . I cant support a man like donald trump. He is in president ial. He has never been president ial. He doesnt know how to be president ial. America first . It involves negotiating. Meanserica first also trying to create jobs here in the United States but his daughter make shoes in china. The reason why she cant bring those jobs back is because there is nobody here that can make women shoes in the United States. Weve lost that ability. Host thank you for the call. Rick says this fiasco is worse than benghazi. Lets begin. We are being led by a failed usedcar salesman. And another tweet that says America First left us for world war ii. America first was proven to be a failure, just like trickledown economics. Mike is next from texas. Caller it is time to start handing out spoons to the press people. We give them a spoon and we tell protest was a host thank you for taking my jarrett is next. Caller thank you for taking my call. Every time i hear someone say the mx the american taxpayer must lead. Foreignbeen policy doing everything they can to shift the tax burden away from themselves. Someone has to pay it and i know it will be the middle class. It is wrong. Every time i hear someone say that the wealthy pay the majority of the taxes . Want to hear them say that they take the majority of the income also. My call. For taking host the fundraiser yesterday in texas raised over 30 million with the five former president s on hand for the event. This is from inside the New York Times sunday afternoon magazine. State of chaos with an isolated later and a demoralized. Emocratic core the America First policy is adrift in the world. Hillary clinton, ook, what happened was doing hisson job, you try to get us on a diplomatic track which is what we must do, bringing the chinese into the forefront as well as south korea and others, Rex Tillerson was doing his job in beijing and basically the president tweets, forget about it. Theres only one way to go. If you are the secretary of state, you have to be perceived as speaking for the president and for the nation. He basically humiliated him. Host that was Hillary Clinton happened. , what the full interview airs at 2 15 eastern time on cspan twos book atand on our website cspan. Org. Nancy from texas, good morning. Caller trump must have globalists scared because they are fighting back. He hasnt done as good as i wish. E had done if people think global is a is the answer, do you understand work on chip overseas . Do not want sovereignty for our own laws and congress . Because that is what those the transpacific partnership, that is what that is all about. I wish people would wake up. America has to be first. Host in the New York Times jimmy carter at a trust posting. People would run away screaming at the thought of working for a boss who humiliate subordinates in public and demands constant flattery, spending all day watching cable tv and behaving in an unpredictable way. And yet there is someone who is eager to work for President Trump. Democrathat he is a and even curiouser is that he is a member of the former president s club. And someone who trump has disparaged on twitter. Nobody knows it better than jimmy carter. Beat brain odds to cancer. The 93yearold would like to pull another rabbit out of the hat. And enter into a Productive Partnership with trump over north korea. Timess from the new york the piece on jimmy carter. We have the event from last night on the website where more than 30 million were raised. Larry is on the republican line. Of theu think president s Foreign Policy . Caller i think the Democratic Party should respect trump because he is the president. Democrats turn it into a communist country. I dont think its right. And let the republicans do what they have to do to bring the country back to where its ought to be. Host thank you for the call. On theo Michigan Democrats line. Good morning. Caller good morning, steve. Was thethink that America First, the president s treating the people in puerto rico as if they are not americans. They are not coming first. They are being left last. Last in everything. Resistance amount of amount of assistance that they got. And the person who said something about how after Hillary Clinton lost, why didnt she accept it and say that we are not going to resist . That i believe the reason she didnt is because the secret service told her and donald trump that the russians were involved in our election and that oruld never admit accept the fact that they were. He has defended russia. So this is why we have to continue to fight. Because they are still wrapped up in our elections. Thank you. Host thank you. A couple more tweets. Too bad we elected a more on inside of a real person. Thanks Trump Supporters. Everywhere, it trump has needlessly started fights everywhere, north korea, iran, venezuela even with llies. Washington post. Com, trump pledges his own money to help for his aides. S he is pledging his own money to help cover the cost of the ongoing relation investigation ongoing investigations of russian meddling in last years election. Trump and donald trump jr. Have been involved in multiple investigations. As a saying it isnt meant reimbursement but it doesnt preclude trump from doing that at a later time or increasing the amount available. This jury immediate criticism from walter schaub, the former director of the u. S. Office of government ethics whose suggested on twitter that it is rife with ethical conflict. We go now to Fort LauderdaleFort Lauderdale. Good morning. Caller a lot of things get under my skin as far as criticism of donald trump. But the one thing that gets under my skin is people trying to portray him as being against free trade. There has never been free trade. If there was free trade and we wouldnt have trade agreements. Inesses could simple businesses could simply conduct other businesses without the government and goods would flow in other directions. So the truth is that we have never had free trade. Trying to doump is is eliminate the shenanigans and imbalances that foreign governments put into the trade agreements. Putting our products at a disadvantage. Try to count the number of products that go into japan from the United States. How the number of products into of thesed china all countries for that matter, mexico and canada. These countries get these agreements and destroy companies in the United States. And if i may, i would like to tell you something that brings this into perspective. I ago, why wife and years ago, my wife and i traveled to buy furniture for our house. We came across a small shop that had fantastic recliners. Bring aanted to recliner back to our house so we wee want to of them want two of them and they said they were the last to recliners that they had. A greatid, for such product, how can that be . And they explained to me that the recliners were no longer being made in the United States and they were being made in china. And theto the store recliner that was supposed to be the same recliner as the one we were buying that was made in the United States didnt match up anywhere near the recliners that we bought. Forit is a great example the guy who talked about the shoe manufacturing. We havent just lost product but we have lost craftsmanship and skill and pride in our industries. And that has been the biggest part of the devastation. Host a tweet from another viewer saying the reason u. S. Products dont sell overseas is because we stink at manufacturing. Join in on the conversation. Newt gingrich will be joining us at the top of our for his take on american foreignpolicy and relationships with republicans on capitol hill. This is from david who says Donald TrumpsAmerica First is his usual and only policy. Me first. Now, japan is on the ropes, the same with china. The independent line is up next. Good morning. Caller good morning. Im sorry. These people amaze me. Believe innot America First. He believes in himself first. And these callers confuse me. I dont know. Im confused by all of this. Caller we go to harry on the line for independence. Caller good morning to you. I have something to say here it will take me a minute. States took on a job was tos ago which shepherd the world into the future. , 20ears before i was born Million People died in ukraine because Joseph Stalin starved them to death. Born naziefore i was germany was industrially killing people. The United States won this war in 1945 or whatever. Then, under its stewardship, we have seen more peace and prosperity over the last 70 years then under any empire,ewardship of any under the British Empire and the spanish and anybody. So i would like somebody to tell me why the United States should not continue to try and manage this world in such a way as that we dont have the mass killing of people that he used to happen. N a regular basis and people forget that. Millions of people died in the century i was born in. Industriallyople or by government decisions. Union, theet collectivization of farms . It was incredible. Host thank you for sharing your thoughts. On our twitter page, anthony says i blame clinton for working with the republicans to pass a trade deal. And from good point caller, trump isnt about America First. It is trump first. Send us your tweets. We hear from senator john mccain in just a moment more now from the New York Times editorial past week that we were using as a jumping off point for the president s foreignpolicy as he prepares for his most expensive his most extensive trip yet. The New York Times, there been plenty of mistakes that have raised questions about the wisdom of policies but on the whole, the world has benefited greatly from americas guidance and willingness to engage with allies every step of the way. More from senator mccain speech this past week. To fear the world weve organized and led for three quarters of a century, to abandon the ideals we have advanced around the globe. To refuse the obligations of International Leadership and our duty to remain the last best hope of earth for the sake of nationalismked cooked up by people who would rather find state notes then solve problems [applause] [cheers] john mccain is as unpatriotic as attachment any other prior dogma of the past that americans history. To the host lets get to your calls. Nicholas on the republican line. Good morning. Caller i got back about a week ago and i started off in germany. That nobody walks the streets anymore. There are so many refugees that the crime rate is out of control to the point where they dont walk out at night anymore. If you walk into squares and the security guards have machine guns. Everybody has machine guns out there. And it gives you an idea of how lucky we are to be in the and i states of america and how blessed we are. The Foreign Policy, if you look at it one way, you see that it on the other side, things like they put themselves second and everybody else first and you really create problems for the whole country. That is a point i wanted to make. Only look around the world, we can learn from othersmistakes and make ourselves better. Have a great day. Host a couple of headlines from the New York Times. Above the fold. Bill oreilly settled the claim and got a new fox deal. And from the Washington Times bill oreilly reaching a Million Dollar settlement before fox news gave him a pay raise. Here are some of the details from the Washington Times. Bill oreilly agreed to pay 32 million to resolve a Sexual Harassment claim launched by a frequent guest on his Fox News Program in an enormous undisclosed settlement reached weeks before the disgraced pundit received a pay raise from the networks parent. A 32 million deal with liz while in january, six months after fox news ousted the former chairman over separate allegations of Sexual Harassment and a month before 20th century up to his salary to 25 million. He left fox news three months after reaching that settlement. Featuredhen carlson is this week on her new book had this from the headline. Nobody pays a 32 million fee for fake allegations. Nobody. You can read the full story online. Back to the phone calls on the president s America First and u. S. Foreignpolicy. Republican line, good morning. Caller good morning. I would like to talk about putting god first. I think if we do not take care of ourselves first, we cant take care of the people. It is like when you get on an airplane, they tell you to put your oxygen mask on first so then you can take care of your baby. If you die then your baby dies. And it is the same way if we dont take care of our country. It is it selfish. We must take care of ourselves so we can take care of others. Andica is a great country we were called upon to do this. Everyone should take it seriously. We are a great country. Following,t says the americans love being foods bed love being spoonfed by the media o. Donna on the democrats line from oklahoma, good morning. Caller good morning to you. Donald trump that seems to be out of touch with reality. Shengs that he said wants people to worship him. But it is a working out and its never going to work out. That we have elected this man and he has done everything he can to destroy america. That is my comment. Thank you very much, have a wonderful day. A the Washington Post world of weinstein. Taking a look at harvey allegations ofis sexual abuse. Protest. D states of jeffrey is up next. Globalism or America First . Your take . I have respected your call time limit. I come from a manufacturing town where we have lost tons of manufacturers. I have to directly dispute publicans who say we cant make anything good in america. We make excellent products. We have a manufacturing plant and i bet you anyone in america has a trw part in their car. Trw is one of the largest manufacturers in the world for auto parts. But im off track. The track is that we move these ofpanies offshore because union busting. Ever since the reagan administration, we have been hardline negotiating with unions the power of labor and collective bargaining and we used to have excellent medical ruled 60 ofunions the households but you cant buy a pair of levis anymore. They used to be made in america. Inan remember 20 levis 1975. We made sneakers and underwear and you cant buy a pair of because theyre made in china. Recently i made a trip to the Salvation Army and i found two neckties with the donald trump logo that were made in china. Donald trump, bring them to america. For 75 inll them the Upscale Department stores but i bet you could pay union labor 11 and still charge 75 in a Department Store for your phony silk ties that are pretty ugly. Host the cover story of the weekly John Mccormick writing about the senators uphill battle against the trepidation of the gop and inside the weekly nation. S entitled saying that one out of every 10 that americans earned goes to medicare, medicaid or Social Security and the present trend continues that will grow by 2047. 5 the payments cannot simply be reduced in budget negotiations. The federal government is legally obliged to pay set rates and amounts to current and future beneficiaries and cant do otherwise without changing the law. And as the government struggles to pay for the programs, the number of beneficiaries grows larger and larger. There was a debate in the house on cspan. Will be joining us in 10 minutes. Up next is gordon from michigan. Good morning. Caller in mourning. Caller gooday morning. I wanted to say that our species can control destiny. We will be taken up at the plague or a killer asteroid. We have the power to control our destiny of the first time in our history. And unless you believe in a deity that will come down and destroy the world or save the world then we have to think globally. Ause no individual planet no individual nation in this planet has the resources for us to leave the planet which we will eventually have to do. For the call. U bill oreillys book is number one this week. In poweright years is number two and Hillary Clintons what happened is. Umber three next is joe from pennsylvania on the independent line. Caller how are you doing . I was thinking, you just showed john mccain and it is a. Iscredit to show the hasbeens the politician to a been there for 30 and 40 years. It doesnt do any good, whatsoever. Mccain, mcconnell, schumer they are out of touch with the American People. It is a disgrace. I think you guys shouldnt show them. Host let me jump in. He is a senator from arizona. The chair of the Senate Armed Services committee. A leading public figure. Why wouldnt we include his voice in the conversation . Caller he is out of touch with the American People. It is similar to the media. System. One party host dont you think we should collectively hear from different voices and then draw our own conclusions . Yes, i do agree in diverse views back and forth. Host so what is wrong with hearing from senator mccain . Everybody bashes trump. You guys are leftwingers. Host thats not true. You now that if you have seen this program 17 years ago, democrats said we were beating up on obama. Caller eating up the president is good. Think there is a line that you shouldnt cross. He is our president. Lets get back to reality. People. The american not for yourselves and your pocketbook but for everybody and i dont believe they are doing that. I think the 30 year and fortyyear politicians need to be voted out. Get new blood in there. Everybody wants to put it on race and turn us into something that we are not that we had in black president which proves the United States is not a racist country anymore. Hate will be here forever. We need to live our lives and our neighbors and enjoy each other. Host women on the rise. A powerful owner class emerges in the age of trump. The cover of gq weekly the cover of cq weekly. Caller everybody is bashing trump. If you dont like him, vote him out. Host frederick is next from arkansas. Good morning. Caller good morning. Good morning. How are you doing . Host im doing great, how are you . Caller im doing fine. Host do you have a comment . Caller i do. President trump has taken this. Ountry so far apart people were living good and doing good until he got into office. People living on Social Security they cant get enough money to live. Talking about putting America First . Host thank you. Washington post, david letterman. From the Kennedy CenterMark Twain Awards being harrys dad. Steve from South Carolina on the republican line. Welcome, good morning. Caller thank you for taking my call. From oklahoma who called it earlier and said trump is ruining the country and what bashing the president , it goes on and on. Deal is with President Trump is that he has put America First and the illegals coming across our border down there have been has taken since he office. Trillions created 6 in our stock market. That never happened under obama. We were only a 2 growth or less. 3. 2 . Now up to in our economy growth. Mean, trump only talks about putting America First and the gentleman who called in and disabilitying about i was disabled under president obama and my check hasnt changed. So that is a bunch of nonsense. Give him a chance. He is trying to make a difference. People who want to see him fail that is whats going on in this country. Democrats cant stand it. They were stunned when Hillary Clinton lost. And ita crooked person is coming out in this investigation with the uranium deal that they are finally bringing to the front. Another issue we brought up with the Hillary Clinton and view that airs this afternoon, see that on book tv. One headline under trump, america surrenders. Sometimes with surprising outcomes. Reagan confined his union withgotiate arms control gorbachev. Welcome to the conversation. Ar one short comment lot of folks think that we have the right to be happy but we dont. We have the right to pursue happiness. And the dollar is the reserve currency of the world. This country deserves a more fiduciary responsibility to impose our rallies around the world. The dollars at risk for that. Thank you. Host we go to randy in newport. Caller good morning, america. Politicst is that in and in america, we see the pendulum swing. It swings to the left and now we see it swing to the right. And i would like to see someone like trump in office because he was an outsider and we need outside influence coming in to politics. That is what politics was originally made for. Up in just a moment, our conversation with House SpeakerNewt Gingrich, first elected in the late 1970s, he will be joining us to talk about President Trump. Peniel joseph is joining us later in the program from the university of texas in austin. More of the debate around nfl athletes who neil during the National Anthem. The director of the National Counterterrorism center talked about where isis is gaining strength around the world. Here is a portion. [video clip] Southeast Asia is one where i see the trajectory on and up thatard direction particularlye because in the 2004 through 2006 with ane were dealing Al Qaedalinked terrorist group that carried out the bali bombings in indonesia that were quite devastating. There is a capacity within Southeast Asia for extremism to manifest itself in terrorism. If isis taps into that successfully, that could create a regional threat of the sort we have not seen the last several years. I would also point to north africa, not just west africa, but north africa. A wide range of terrorist and extremist groups even predating algeria,ate in libya, morocco. The arrival of isis on the scene only added another player to a was already a difficult terrorism situation there. I would characterize it as largely a localized problem, a significant threat to our interests in the region rather is something than something truly transnational. You dont have to look closely at a map to know that north africa edges close to the Southern Tier of europe. Just iraq or syriabased foreign fighters we worry about, but those are from north africa we worry about transporting onto the european. Host newsmakers airing after washington journal. Nicholas rasmussen, the National Counterterrorism center director. We welcome back former House SpeakerNewt Gingrich, out with a new book. We will talk about that in just a moment. And your wife and her new posting. Lets talk about president george w. Bush. Politicsh, he says seems to be more vulnerable conspiracy theories or outright fabrication. He took aim at the present without mentioning him specifically. Your reaction. Guest i think there are very real differences between president bush and senator mccain, who also had a tough speech this week, and President Trump. Part of the republican primary fight in 2015 and 2016 is which of those two worldviews did Republican Voters want. By a decisive margin, they thought the past was not to their advantage, and they want to change. I can appreciate trump was not recruited by the establishment. He won a hostile takeover. I can appreciate the losing side is not happy. Host we have been talking about globalism versus America First. Where would you put the president s Foreign Policy . Guest i think there is a tendency on the part of the people want to defend globalism to not be honest about what it is. Globalism in its essence, so we can look at the john kerry, Hillary Clinton, barack obama version is the subordination of the United States to a series of International Agreements often dominated by countries that are not democracies. Nk we should be in the General Assembly of the United Nations . Yes. Should we take it seriously . No. There is some reason to believe that they conflate ring involved with the international order, which donald trump is for, with globalism, which is the domination of the United States by multinational agreements where we give away our sovereignty to countries, many of which do not share our values, many of which are dictatorships. I dont think the current venezuela government is the moral equivalent of the United States government. Host is this a dramatic shift from postworld war ii engagement with have seen from the u. S. . Guest i dont think it is a dramatic shift from engagement. It is a dramatic shift in the solution. When george h. W. Bush called the new world order, there is no new world order. The chinese are trying to become at a minimum our competitor and a maximum dominators. You have chaos in a whole number of countries. Whohave islamic radicals ambush americans and occupy cities. This is not a world order. The question becomes what is the best baseline in which to defend American Values and interests. I think sovereignty is useful and healthy. Warsaw,rumps speech in the United Nations, these are serious speeches outlining a sovereignty based International Commitment as opposed to a globalist lawyer diplomatic base, which is a failed model. Host senator robert taft of ohio, Dwight Eisenhower became the nominee and leader of your party for eight years. The circumstances have changed them up but is it similar to the debate we saw in the 1950s . Taft really did want to avoid engaging the soviet union. He wanted to revert to a preworld war ii isolationism. Trump is not an isolationist. He clearly understands there is a larger world. We are more engaged in korea. We are more engaged in syria. There are a range of places where he is trying to get congress to agree to rebuild the military. He wants to base his International Activities on american sovereignty and american interests. Im not sure i understand why people think having an american president believe their job is to worry about american interests, why is that a big shock . I understand why it is with the New York Times. They live in a fantasy world. Host should the president korea . D to the dmz in guest i leave that entirely up to the president and the commander in south korea. Was is nato working as it intended . Guest it cannot be. There is no longer the soviet union. Nato was intended to contain the soviet union. It worked. One morning the soviet union disappeared, and nato headquarters was faced with a crisis. What do we do now . They have held the Alliance Together for 26 years since the soviets disappeared. Nato overall is useful. I will give you an example. Im a phd in european history. I have lived in europe a number of times. When the chancellor of germany, who is a very smart woman, smart leader, when she says it is time for the europeans to leave. I got hit with this when i was in kiev the other day. I say, the morning she increases defense spending, i will take it seriously. The germans dont have a military Strong Enough to lead anywhere. They would be lucky to get to the german order. The europeans have to decide who they want to be. They have lived on American Security and american strength since 1945. We are saying to them, george h. W. Bush said to them, Donald Rumsfeld said that you have to do more, youre not doing your fair share. Germany is one of the largest economies on the planet. They should be able to defend themselves even if they are not able to defend the rest of europe. Im happy to be there to reinforce everybody. The person who leads these negotiations, Rex Tillerson, is he doing so in a position of strength or weakness . Guest i think he is doing so from a position of confusion. I think he is a very smart man and ran exxon mobil, which is a giant corporation, with great capabilities. Ultimately, the secretary of state is a staff job. You are not the head of the corporation anymore. I think he has a very different job. My sense overall is that there is agreement between secretary tillerson, secretary of defense mattis, mcmaster, and john kelly, the agreement is very high. They try to present the president with serious options, most of which i think he engages with successfully. Their track record after all the noise and arguments is that they are probably achieving the strategies they believe in. Host our conversation with former House SpeakerNewt Gingrich, when was the first time you were on this network . Do you remember . Guest i think you were a child at the time. Host march of 1979. I have not been born. Guest is that true . Host no. Guest i was going to say. Ofas sworn in in january 1979. You guys showed up in march. You have to check the archives out of purdue, my guess is i was on cspan by june or july. Host lets remind our audience, we will get you post in just a moment. Out with the new book, who knew, a fiction thriller. What is this about . Guest it is about terrorists getting to tankers of oil and making dirty bombs in joining saudi arabia and israel to find the terrorists before they can set off the bonds that make the city uninhabitable. I think it is a dynamic story. I think it is very real in the sense that i think it helps Shape National defense thinking in two ways. You have to have an all capabilities analysis of your enemy. You cant save the north koreans theyre just going to build missiles. What else can they do . You cannot think of a binary korea,ith u. S. North u. S. Iran, you have to think of a networked world. Yourself, what is the enemy network doing, not just what is one single country doing . Host how much is fiction and how much is nonfiction . Guest the action is fiction, but the underlying principles are nonfiction. Anyone who reads it will understand how much we have to be prepared to stop bad people from doing horrifying things. Host your wife spoke, remember the ladies. Which ellisis in the elephant teaches fouryearolds to eightyearolds about the first lady. Forhich they dont, not another 100 years. It is a great book. Ellis is a terrific character. Little kids like the book. Susan arturo does the drawings. They leave off the pages. It is sort of frustrated because now that she has been nominated and confirmed as the ambassador, she cannot go on tv and talk about it because she is now a government employee. Host you just did. Guest im trying to carry the family torch. Host a quick question because we sat down with Hillary Clinton lastly, and in her book she quotes the john adams letter to his wife, make good and honest men live in this way has come and she says she would not what donald trump in that category. Guest of course she went, he beat her. She lost toid if mccain or romney, she would have been ok with it. Guest donald trump is a much bigger break with the old order. Donald trump was a decision by the American People, first in the primaries, and that in the general election, that they wanted a dramatically different election. They are getting it in judges. They are getting it in deregulation. Theyre getting it in policy recommendations. Reagan would have been seen the same way in 1981. In 1981, he was a very disruptive figure and an enormous shock to the republican and democratic establishments. Host peter, republican line. Good morning. Caller good morning. Good morning, mr. Speaker. I am an avid watcher. What i want to speak about is the molar investigation. Just ahearing from volatile, greg jarrett, no one seems to understand why attorney general Jeff Sessions doesnt appoint a special counsel to investigate uranium, fast and myious, the irs scandal, and analysis, and i watch a lot of news, is i think President Trump those guys keep saying, are attorney he can order attorney general Jeff Sessions anytime he wants. I think President Trump doesnt want to do it, why . Because he is afraid. This special mueller wash mr. Appointed to hold a sort of damocles above his head. This can go on for years. Host thank you. We will get a response. Guest i was very encouraged last week when sen. Grassley chairman of the judiciary committee, indicated he was opening an investigation into the entire deal with uranium with the russians and the potential that the russians in bribing thesically Clinton Foundation in order to affect the secretary of state. I am tweeting out today a copy of an article which really outlines in a compelling way the whole story of uranium and the russians and the scale of bribery involved at the Clinton Foundation. I think people will find it interesting. Host the will go to robert in arkansas. Good morning. Caller good morning. Running,president was he had a policy that he was going to be hard on communist china. I understood he was going to do a 45 tariff. Then it got down to a 35 tariff. Most assuredly he was going to call them a currency manipulator. In reality, he did none of that. A few years ago, i was going to hang my flag. The hardware was made by Coke Industries in communist china, the rope made by communist china in vietnam. Koch industries also owns georgiapacific. The first thing the president of the United States does is put a 20 tariff on canada. Now when we got a time when we got these hurricanes, fires in california, lumber has gone berserk. Our lumber is still coming from canada. Tell me, why is it i cannot get any of my congressman to say anything boldly against the president for this tariff on canada, and yet he has refused to put it on communist china . I think tillerson is doing a job for the present an excellent job for the president. I think the. Guest administration is getting steadily tougher with the chinese. I think the process is slow down by north korea. I think the administration leaves that the only potential short of war is the chinese, so they are conflicted between the desire to break the north Korean Nuclear program and the fact that they are increasingly angry about chinese economic activity. I think they were waiting until after the Party Congress that just finished because i think they thought it was much more volatile to take on china during that period leading up to the Party Congress. I will be surprised if they are not very tough with the chinese. I know from internal conversations they fully understand how much the chinese sheet, and i think you will see the administration taking stronger efforts. In terms of the canadian thing, we have had an ongoing since the 1920s argument about timber. The current outcome was a specific action taken as part of a very long, historic pattern. It may well be suspended as you point out as you have this skyrocketing timber cost in the United States because of the hurricanes and fires in california and need to build so much, including in puerto rico. Host listening on cspan radio or series xm, this program is carried live every sunday. Former House SpeakerNewt Gingrich out with his newest boo k he has written. 35. We have heard from paul ryan that there could be a fourth line in this tax reform plan, which by all estimates would great 2 trillion in Economic Growth over the next decade but also explode the deficit. Guest the number one goal has to be accelerated the economy. The economy this is the weakest economy since the great depression. It has been since trump was elected up until obama. At 1. 8 or we were 1. 9 . The difference doesnt sound much, but when you have an economy like ours, a one over 10 yearsnt is trillions of dollars. That is more americans have jobs, and it also means states that have a pension crisis have more revenue to deal with their pensions. There are a lot of Different Things this is why i was so much for writing. I think Economic Growth reagan. I think Economic Growth is key. You cannot take care of the social services you need. If you are not growing economically. I would rather risk the deficit and have massive Economic Growth economye a very weak and smaller deficit. Host when do the alarm bells ring . Guest i am the only speaker in the house to balance the budget in four years. If you grow the economy enough, you will get to a balanced budget. Whether or not they do it in the next year or two, and they frankly need to win the election in 2018 to have the kind of reforms you need. Kenny is next, florida. Guest caller good morning. I want to ask you about the death tax and why that money is and ifhen you earned it, you save it, it is taxed, and if you die, it is taxed again. Liberals say it is only going to affect millionaires and multimillionaires. That is not necessarily true. If you could explain that to our liberal friends, i would appreciate it. Thanks. Have a good day. Guest the death tax is a good example of where we need the kind of debate where the country can sort out what really believes. The truth is people most current by the death tax are Farming Families and Small Business owners because often they have to sell the farm or Small Business in order to pay the tax when the Founding Member dies or the father or grandfather dies, which is usually the case. It can also be the founding mother. There are two different items. The moral argument, you earn the money and pay taxes on the money, and you build net worth on aftertax income, why should the government retax you on something you have already paid taxes on . The second argument is practical. If we could eliminate all the extra games that are played with lawyers and accountants to get around the death tax and allow people to do things rationally that create money and create jobs and lead to growth, you would probably get a substantial increase in Economic Growth by eliminating the death tax. You see these really rich guys say they dont mind the death tax. They all have billiondollar foundations. They dont mind the death tax because they are not going to pay it. You talk about the guys who are most willing to say it is fine, all of them have billiondollar foundations to avoid the tax. Host you have a new title, president to the u. S. Investor to the holy see. Guest she was very honored to be nominated, and the Senate Last Week confirmed her as investor to the holy see. As a devout catholic, i think being able to communicate between the pope and the president is something she finds as one of the greatest honors of her life. I took a four day course. Host spouse school. Guest i learned a lot of things. It was very interesting. She took a fourweek course on being the investor. Host one thing you learned . Guest they had an hour and a half on doing interviews. Everyone thought they knew had to do interviews, but not as the spouse of the investor. I can say anything as Newt Gingrich, but if i come here as the investors has been, i have to be ambassadors husband, i have to be careful. I cannot be seen as speaking for her because i might be making policy that is not the president s policy. It is helpful to be reminded that i have these two radically different roles. As the spouse, i am there to be her helper. As an individual commentator, i can say anything i want. Francise influence pope has had on the church and the dialogue in the world. Guest i think he has had a huge impact. He has an amazing number of twitter followers. He and trump can compare notes on that. I think he has broadened the appeal of the church. He is very aware of the poor around the planet. He is a serious moral leader. He shakes up america some. He is from argentina. Doesntian capitalism equal american capitalism. Interesting, when he reallyre, i think he was amazed at how generous and committed americans are to the church and how different our model of Free Enterprise is from the argentinian model. Host President Trump has been critical of the pope, especially on issues like climate change. Guest they have a very different view of climate change. I think the pope was very critical of trump first. The pope doesnt hold back. Trump doesnt hold back. Im told, the president thought they had a very good meeting. It lasted about an hour. The president thought it was a very positive, very productive meeting. Everything she has heard from the church hierarchy, they are excited she is coming, and they look forward to having a positive relationship with her. Host you are moving next month . Guest we are looking to move in early november. Host democrats line. Caller mr. Gingrich caller guest yes, maam. Caller i would like you to expand to me and the American People about nafta. Wasnt Ronald Reagan and george nafta sh that drafted . You the speaker of the house got after bill clinton about that nafta deal. Guest that is a great question. Ronald reagan first proposed in north american trade agreement in 1979 when he was announcing for president. It was negotiated for years. We had a u. S. Canada freetrade toeement in 1988, which led Prime Minister maroni winning the argument that they should have free trade with the u. S. We finally got the agreement signed in the very late days of the bush presidency, and in a key moment, jimmy carter went to North Carolina and met with then candidate bill clinton that he should before and after, that the longterm future be for nafta. As republican whip at the time, i helped pas it. At balance, it was a positive step. It has done a great guilt to stabilize mexico. If you think of the north american region, canada, the United States, and mexico competing with china, i think it has helped us keep jobs in north america. I think it can be renegotiated. I think it will be renegotiated. I think there are things, particularly in the Auto Industry where trade has been onesided towards mexico, i think youll see significant concessions. I think on balance it was a good thing to do at the time. It is now over 20 years old. It is reasonable to renegotiate it and modify it. I would hope they could get is as counsel a successful negotiation because i think it would lead to a substantial problem if we were to break it off and leave mexico isolated. Frankly, the mexicans would turn almost immediately to the chinese. Host independent line. Good morning. Caller good morning. You will hear the republican amy. In me. After the republican debates, i went independent. I read a couple of your books. The one that impressed me the most was the one about the judges. The president now has a full congress of republicans. I dont understand how come he is not filling the seats below the lower seats of the judges that are open right now. Me issue for republicans and as a social conservative, you are not going to get rid of roe, but you can sure attack partialbirth abortions. Legislation from the bench, gay marriage, all these things that have an impact on conservatives, but he is not filling those seats. Host im going to cut you off there because we are short on time. Guest Mitch Mcconnell deserves more credit than he gets a senate leader, they have now approved twice as many judges as barack obama got at the same point in his first year. They have a close relationship with the federal society. They are producing a generation of conservative judges. On average, they are eight or nine years younger than the judges obama was appointing. Donald trump has a chance to reshape the judiciary for the next 40 years. I think you will see a continued stream of nominations, and i think the senate is going to get a lot of judges confir med. Host the president is tweeting. I want to get your comment. This is from donald trump, it reads, whacky congresswoman wilson is the gift that keeps on giving the republican party, a disaster for dems, vote republican. This is getting personal. Guest of course it is personal. If you decide to go on television and take on a retired fourstar marine general, who is ily, youa gold star fam understand. Host he made a claim that was not true. Guest yes. He has since regretted that. The president called to express condolences on the loss of a loved one. General kelly was in the room for the call and is somebody who has had to deal with a lot of people in his command dying. He thought what the president said was totally appropriate. Most of the combat people i forgot think it was totally appropriate. The congresswoman listened in on the call and gave her interpretation. Now you have a mess. I think it is a i thought the other day that general kelly was extraordinarily articulate and powerful in saying, you know, there were things that used to be sacred in america, things we used to honor, things that used to bring us together. The idea that you would end up in a political fight over a phone call about an american who gave their life for the country, as kelly himself second it shook him so badly he spent an hour to have Walking Around arlington. Know, democrats are now saying this is going to be Donald Trumps benghazi. For me to seeard how this ends up being Donald Trumps benghazi. Benghazi was a case where the ambassador had asked secretary clinton for security, and the state department turned the ambassador down for five or six months, and the ambassador was killed. What this is is an ambush pulled off against it control that a patrol. That is going to happen. We have to be honest about this. We are in a war with people across the planet who want to kill us. Occasionally there are going to be bad things that happened whether it is in afghanistan or iraq or the philippines. When you look at the number of places we are fighting, it is going to go on for a long time, maybe three or four generations. It is not going to end anytime soon. The question is, should we have more forces there . I am for strengthening the american military. That requires a bigger budget. It requires the congress do its job. It requires that the office of management and budget understands this is a war budg et. Host i know you have a busy morning. We will take two more calls. Keith, minnesota, democrat line. Good morning. Caller the question i have is election,this last when trump got in there, the w orking class didnt get a pay increase that are retired, and who am onlly, disability, did get an increase. I dont think its fair for the middle class and the poor people who have to suffer. Guest i agree with you. I hope you will call your senators and house members to vote for the tax cut. It will be a 4000 increase in takehome pay for every middleclass family. It takes a huge number of people off taxes entirely. Passur point, if we can the tax cut this fall, every middleclass family in america is going to get a substantial increase in takehome pay. I think your point is well made. Host let me ask about your relationship with the congressional leadership and the present. Guest i thought paul ryan was brilliant the other night. Host we carried it. It is on our network. Guest if you do not see it, it is worth watching. It is as good as i can member, speaking at the else met dinner all smith dinner. The relationship is gradually getting better. Trump attacks people. You have to deal with it. Get over it. That is good advice. Senator mcconnell went down, and they had lunch. They had an almost hourlong conference, which i am sure mitch thought was one of the wilder experiences of his career. He wrote a great book, a terrific memoir about his life in the senate and his values. Donald trump is unique. We have never had somebody who has never held public office, never won an election, shows up as president of the United States, and he has his strengths and weaknesses. You get a personality that strong, and you will have some things that are quirky that are downsides, things i wish you would not do. Host which are . 10 to 15 oft his tweets, 20 maybe our selfdestructive. He is relentless. Was talking to Claire Christiansen who works with us, and it hit me that we have not give him enough credit yet. Trump has this remarkable ability of being comfortable with being drunk. He trump. He knows he has strengths and weaknesses. He gets up every morning and runs at full speed. He is unashamedly donald trump. That means sometimes he does things the whole exchange with corker make no sense to me. Senator corker is remarkably important, very smart senator, who he needs for the tax cut and Foreign Policy. It is a piece of the larger complexity of trump. I think paul ryan have it exactly right. You are not going to deal with the guy you wish was president. Youre not going to even do with the trump you wish was present, you are dealing with the trump that is. Lets go to lunch and work out something. Host the book is called pensions, the latest venge ance, the latest book by Newt Gingrich. Guest im thinking about how many revolutions are underway simultaneously, whether it is black lives matter, or the revolution in technology and biology. I am trying to understand if i can do a book that tries to explain where we are, with the skill of choices in 2018 the on just normal politics. It is a different world. Host author, fox news contributor, former House Speaker, and now the husband to the new ambassador to the vatican. Guest the last one is important. Host thank you for doing with us. He will turn out to athletes, the nfl, and kneeling. Peniel joseph of enormously of texas. University of texas. Later, shon hopwood. This weekend we go to portland, maine for our cities tour. Here is my gps and radar. It helps us figure out where we are. S with amark my trap gps. I kind of do it by feel. That bad boy. Its a male. About 75 toere is 80. Host the cspan cities tour traveling to portland, maine, and you can see it this weekend on cspan2 and cspan3s American History tv. Close your eyes for a moment and stretch. Close your eyes. I see you. [laughter] trust me, empathy. I want you to stretch your imagination. [crash] open your eyes. That is how fast it happens. In a blink, no warning. Tonight on q a, executive director of paralyzed veterans of America Sherman gillums, junior, talks about his own paralysis and his work to help paralyzed veterans. Im trying to tell them, as is what i see from a policy perspective, from an advocate perspective. You have to empathize. That is what will make it the ideal provider for veterans who have sacrificed. Tonight at 8 00 eastern on cspans q a. Washington journal continues. Host joining us from austin, texas, is peniel joseph, director of the center for the study of race in democracy and professor of history at the university of texas in austin. Good sunday morning. Thank you for being with us. Lets talk about what we might see or may not see today on the field on this nfl sunday, especially in light of what we heard from Roger Goodell this past sunday in new york. Guest i think you may still see some players who take an individual stands by taking the knee in protest against Racial Discrimination and Racial Injustice in the United States. I dont think we will see the same kind of, necessarily, broadbased taking of the knee we saw in the aftermath of the president s comments. Host can you explain what this debate is all about . Certainly, we have heard from the players, Colin Kaepernick and others, it is much larger than just Race Relations in america. Guest one thing i agree with your previous guest, Newt Gingrich, is there are different revolutions taking place across the country. I think black lives matter is one of those revolutions. That Movement Comes out of the state of Police Violence against African American women and men and boys and girls that, unfortunately for americans, is part of our history, but in the last five, 6, 7 years we have seen social media and other people videotaping some of these shootings. Rice in cleveland. Certainly, Trayvon Martin wasnt killed by a police officer, but he was the victim of racial violence in florida. From that, you got this black lives matter hashtag from three women, radical activists, clear identified queer identified, and it is this idea that the Racial Justice system is a gateway to many Different Levels gender a, economic, prescient. Inspiredernick is by the activism in this social movement, and i would argue is the largest social movement we have seen since the iraq Civil Rights Movement in the racial rebellion of the 1970s. They are talking about Racial Justice, economic justice, gender justice. They are questioning the fundamentals of american democracy. I think that is truly revolutionary. In a way they are bringing us back to what dr. King calls those great wells of democracy that were dug deep by the founders. Host just elaborate further on what you just said, testing made these protesting made these athletes patriots. Whether they are taking a need to protest Police Treatment of black americans or express solidarity with their team, the hundreds of nfl players now under scrutiny represent a longstanding american tradition of social justice advocacy among american athletes. Guest when we think about our africanamerican athletes, also black citizens, take one of the most vicious, racist myths, this idea that African American athletes are not patriotic or somehow hate the United States of america. Black people in this country are the most patriotic people the country has ever produced. From racial slavery, you have africanamericans that have volunteered to fight it every single war this country has ever fought in. Even when the army was segregated, africanamericans fought because they were trying to transform american democracy domestically and promote freedom across the world. In the 1940s, it was something called a double v campaign, victory against fascists abroad, and victory against jim crow at home. Those who criticize those who are taking a knee, what people dont understand is the flag belongs to all of us. The greatness of america, as dr. King said, lies in the right to protest for rights. No single group owns the flag. We have the right as american citizens to critique aspects of society that we feel are not working. What the Young Athletes are doing, and remember Jackie Robinson says in his memoir that he did not want to stand up for the National Anthem because of the Racial Discrimination he faced rating cover line in 1947, becoming the first africanamerican player in major league baseball. Not standing up for the flag or a National Anthem, there is a tradition of that because people love the country and are trying to transform it into living up to its ideas. There is a gap between American Democratic rhetoric and its practice. What these players are trying to do and the larger black lives Matter Movement is trying to do is to make the country finally come to grips with being true with what it put down on paper about all people being equal and having the right to pursue happiness and have social, political, and economic justice. Host the president says it is disrespecting the flag, we are americans, and we should stand united when it comes to the National Anthem. Guest i think we should all stand united as americans, but we should all support each others right to protest injustice. When we think about the flag, it is only a society that is not a mature Political Society that tries to attack and demonized fellow citizens who are engaging in peaceful acts of protest. Flagtanding up for the when youre protest is against Racial Injustice and economic injustice and all these communities that are marginalize, it is an active courage and patriotism. I think conflating those issues of patriotism, the flag, Racial Injustice just confuses the situation we are in. It is a time of great confusion, but it is important for all of us to remember that the greatness of america lies in the right to protest. Women have done this. The Labor Movement has done this. Lgbtq communities have done this. Native american activists, asianamerican activists, the tino activists, and those lat ino activists, and those engaging for immigrant rights. They have engaged in peaceful movements and have engaged in changing terrible issues that continue to plague our society. Host our guest is peniel joseph, a professor at the university of texas in austin, the director for the center of the study of race and democracy and the author of a number of books, including stokely, the life of stokely carmichael. Lets get to your phone calls. From georgia, democrats line, good morning. Caller good morning, professor. Was walter scott who was shot in South Carolina. Guest thank you. Caller Colin Kaepernick was disgruntled by the San Francisco 49ers for relegating him from a starting position to third string, and when he was a starter with San Francisco, i did not hear all of this talk about social injustice when he took them to the super bowl. Host we will get a response. Guest he was third string, but he started after injuries to the starting quarterback. For those who follow Colin Kaepernick, he was always wearing shirts and connected to protesting against social injustice. Last year is when he started to publicly say he was refusing to stand for the anthem because of the protests surrounding the black lives Matter Movement. I dont think his protest had anything to do with his position in the San Francisco 49ers. I think like many people, including musical artists, intellectuals, movements inspire and transform people. When we think about the Civil Rights Movement, we had celebrities like Harry Belafonte who were part of that movement because they got inspired by movements against social and Racial Injustice where they could no longer stand quiet. I think that is what happened to Colin Kaepernick. Host our line for independence, charles, you are next. Caller good morning. I have another take on this, and i think it was in 1969, donald trump was a majority holder in a Football League called the usfl. He wanted to merge that with the nfl. The nfl told donald trump to go take a hike. We know this president doesnt work on lets come together. He works on vengeance and revenge. I think that is one of the reasons he did this. With his followers, he could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody in the face, and they would not care. I have friends now who are not watching the nfl because of this. Maybe bob kostis was right. Maybe they shouldnt do it during the them, maybe right after the last note, take a moment of silence or something. Donald trump is a divisive person, and now the country is even more divided. Host thank you. We will get a response. Guest the president did have an interest in the United StatesFootball League in the 1980s. He has had a starcrossed relationship with the nfl. He was not able to get an nfl team. I think there could be something to this idea that he has a critique of the nfl already. I think one of the reasons he has criticized the nfl is that it is a league with majority black players, and the president has had tense relationships with the Africanamerican Community in general, both before assuming the office and since. Those tensions continue to abound. I think this is one area where we see those tensions manifest publicly. Host rockford, michigan, is where our next caller is coming from. Joe, go ahead. Caller hi. My comment is why does it seem like every morning i wake up, and there is some problem some black person having a grievance against a white person . Black people dont ever want to assimilate to be part of this regular society. They think they have to be above everybody else. That is my comment. Thank you. Host we will get a response. Guest i think that is wrong historically. When we think about africanamericans, what you are dismissing his able history of racial slavery, racial segregation. It is not that black people have not wanted to assimilate. They have fought historically to be racially integrated in American Society and to really have their Citizenship Rights respected by both the law and fellow citizens. What we have seen historically is a country that is promoting racial segregation, promoting jim crow, promoting racial violence and apartheid against africanamericans and extracting the well from africanamericans and distributing that wealth to white americans. We are not to talk about racial slavery. Were talking of the new deal, the g. I. Bill, the federal Housing Administration that gave on loans to whites but not blacks, levittowns that prevented blacks from buying homes. The creation of wealth in the american middle class in postwar america, africanamericans were by and large shut out of that emitted wealth. This is a forgotten history. One of my missions as a scholar and a teacher is to promote American History as to a mythology of why Race Relations are the way they are. S triedople have alway to be part of an integrated community. Martin luther king jr. Called it a beloved community. That would include people of all callers and all background c colors and all backgrounds. Host two quick comments from some tweets we have been getting. One viewer saying, i always find it funny when white people to black people how they should protest. An ironythink there is to that. One of the things we have learned from dr. King and not colmnext in the 1960s mal x in the 1960s, those were two different ways of protesting. Malcolm talked about selfdefense. King had a critique, but he talked about nonviolent civil disobedience. The idea of telling as people who are oppressed, what are the parameters through which they can show their dissatisfaction with society, it is one of the ironies of being part of an oppressed group in this country. Host this is from one of our regular viewers, stop playing the National Anthem at sports events, simple. Guest that is something that has happened very recently. The nfl around 2009, certainly people started baseball has had a rich tradition of doing it, and after 9 11 in the seventh inning, they added another layer of patriotism to support the military come first responders, all citizens after the tragedy of 9 11. One of the things the nfl has uneasy combined in an way these images of war, the National Anthem, images, over to images of what some people the finest patriotism in terms of the flag and others have a different perspective on, and i think we need to have immature conversation of what these symbols mean and their connection to our larger society. There is no simple that should be offlimits in a free and open society from criticizing. Critique is not disrespect. We need to have more political maturity as americans to understand and come to terms with that. Host next. Caller the gentleman was talking about every time you wake up in the morning its another black person killed by another whilet person it gets too ridiculous. If people werent carrying around guns cops wouldnt be shooting them. If they wouldnt run when Police Say Stop they wouldnt get shot. And this anthem stop playing it . Thats crazy. And make peopling scared, make them respect us thats all ive got to say. Guest well, i think the call is reflective of theres a long history of rationalizing antiblack violence by not just the police but by the entire nation states and i think thats unfortunate but thats really in some corners and some segments where we are. Thats why the movement for is so important, because this idea of black lives mattering when historicically for many they havent is very, very important to raise that banner is so impo because this idea and raise that flag, but also connect that to gaining enough political power and leverage to transforming Public Policy at the local station and National Level to ensure that future generations arent going to be faced with being victims of state violence, and also having at least some fellow citizens not care about that violence because theyre rationalizing when that violence happens against black bodies. Ost robert next, in washington, d. C. Caller good morning. I think basically this the two sides of this issue feel theres a group washington, d. C. That feels tha although america is not perfect, throughout history its pretty much the best government the government the has ever seen. Weve helped so many people throughout the world and you all know where im coming from with this all the stats on it. And theres another group that seems like they basically, instead want to improve the system, they want to fundamentally change america to totally something else. We feel as if whatever you change it into isnt going to be as good. So lets get together on what weve got combrks prove it, and lets all live in harmony together. Host thanks, robert. Guest i think its more complicated than that. I think theres multiple visions and competing visions of what america and american democracy means. I think historicically African Americans have been at the cutting edge of wanting the expansive vision of american democracy ever imagined. When we think about just not just Martin Luther king jr. , its share croppers who were testifying at the 1964 convention why they were there in Atlantic City to be delegates at the Democratic National convention and all the racial violence theyve experienced in small towns in mississippi, alabama, throughout the south, but also segregation and violence that theyre facing in the north. Thats a history that Many Americans dont want to confront. That we confront south africa had a truth and reconciliation committee. Until we confront the way in which institutional racism and not just institutional and Structural Racism but really the politics and practices of hite privilege and white premsy has impacted all of our citizens, both black, latino, but also white citizens and making them have a distorted view of American History, were never going to be able to come together. Because really right now even at the local and the state and federal level, there are tens of millions of African Americans who are margalized really sentenced going to terrible schools, racially segregated ghettos in the United States, incarcerated at hugely disproportionate rates from their white counterparts. All these things are happening cause of the continued institutional racism in our Public Policy, in the way in which our communities are organized, in the lack institutional racism in our Public Policy, in the way in which our communities are organized, in the lack of access that black communities have by in large to environmentally safe neighborhoods, to employment, to good schools, to good housing. Until we can come to terms with that we are always going to be at odds. So when we think about america and american democracy we have competing visions of american democracy, and what advocates of Racial Justice want is really to transform the nation state in a way that is going to promote equality and justice and fair not just opportunities but fair outcomes for all people. Host let me add another voice to all of this. Host bill from illinois independent line. Good morning. Caller good morning. I was raised by the only nonracial person ive ever met in my life, my father. Wounded veerm veteran and my vietnam veteran. My position is i dont think that has l player been a first responder, police officer, or in the military has a right to protest police officer, or in the military has a right to protest the National Anthem. I will not watch any sports organizations or support them as long as this goes on. Host your response. Guest well, certainly that thats gentlemans right. I think that this idea that their s somehow abdicate silingtssns rights because they may be well paid or athletes is unfortunate. I think historicically athletes have been part of the social justice movement, whether at the high school level, at the collegiate level, or host your professionally. Black women and men who are athletes have been part of these movements and at times other people of color and white allies as well. So the idea that as american citizens we cannot engage in nonviolent protests is really unfortunate. And i would say that part of whats going on in the 21st century is really a loss of memory and a willful historical amnesia about how we got to the place that we are at today. And the idea that we can no longer engage in nonviolent peaceful protests against any symbol of American Authority really fundamentally portrays who we are as a nation. The nation is founded as a nation that does not have a state religion, that has freedom of speech, freedom of assembly directly in protest against other nation states that were founded differently. We have no stakered objects in is nation that people cannot protest against nonviolently. And thats what makes us libertys surest guardian. We are only libertys surest guardian when we are true to our core American Values. I think whats stunning is that millions of americans do not understand core american value, which is really one of the first entries of citizenship is understanding what are the fundamental principals of the nation that im a citizen of . People need to read the declaration of independence, read the constitution, understand what the nation is founded on, the principles, and then realize that what those young people are doing all around the nation actually even if you disagree with it personally, act are are in line with the fundamental core values that the nation is founded on. Were focusing on the n. F. L. , athletes in general and the National Anthem. Our guest tt director for of race the study and democracy. We have time for one or two more calls. George, democrats line good morning. Caller good morning. Im a veteran for the Second World War and the korean war and i will never watch another game al League Football as game as long as this thing continues. Now, i was born and raised among all black people, we had farms together, we helped, we worked together and helped each other out. I dont see any color barrier whatsoever. The good lord made us all the same. Theres five different colors. He made them in different parts of the world for his reasons. And why we cant get along and why they keep bringing up the color as a race thing, i cannot i dont see any color understand. If something dont go their way they bring up the race thing right away. And that is wrong. Many of my black friends agree with what im saying. In fact, theres two or three of them here with me and they agree with that. As soon as they cant get something their way they go to the race card. Host thank you. Guest well, i would want to help you understand why people go to what you are calling the race card. There really is no race card. Black people historicically and contame prainsly are resisting institutional segregation, institutional racism, structural inequality, at multiple levels. The violence against black people by the police is part of a larger pan ramic system of race and class and gender and Sexual Orientation impression, what some people call intersectionality against African Americans in this country. So the struggle for black equality and the struggle for black dignity that may make people uncomfortable but athes not happening because an individual is upset that they have not gotten their way. The idea of in fant liesing black people and saying they have all kinds of grievances because theyre just like a child whose not getting what they want is really pernicious and not only is it age historical but it is really offensive because it misunderstands the history of racial slavery, the 100 years f formal legal segregation and apart tide the last half century the way weve only moved towards progress in fiss and starts. So African Americans are underrepresented in every positive indicater in the United States and overrepresented in all the negative. That is not because of behavioral differences. That is because we have institutions within our Democratic Society that marnlalize and that oppress and that constrain black advancement even in the aftermath of Civil Rights ActVoting Rights act legislation and efforts to ameal yor rate Racial Injustice. So weve only had efforts and weve not broken through. So even with the election of a tpwhrack president , the age of obama coexisted alongside the age of fergsun, the age of baltimore. And right now we see that the age of the current president coexists alongside the age of charlottesville and open white supremacist rally. So until we achieve racial and and gender justice, and until we achieve that we will not achieve what James Baldwin and called achieving ou country. Achieving our country is connected to what king called a beloved community where race its not about race not mattering. Race would not be something that injures people. Neither would gender, neither would class. Were always going to recognize difference among us. And difference is vital. Difference strengthens us. But we wouldnt cannot difference with any kind of negative Public Policy or negative political or personal feelings. Our guest from texas, the author of a number of books. Host we want to turn our attention to a piece you might ave seen last sunday, a chance to talk with the professor at Georgetown Professor school of law. He will explain his story from prison to being a lawyer and his fight as he stands. Washington journal continues. We are back in a moment. Washington journal continues host in just a moment well introduce you to shawn. Heres an excerpt from the cbs 60 minutes piece last sunday night. Question one is was there a constitutional violation . In his first semester, professor is teaching criminal law. The first statement unlawfuly obtained . The irony isnt lost on him or his students who know that he is a convicted felon and that less than a decade ago was an inmate at the Federal Correctional Institution in illinois. Youre a professor at one of the finest law schools in the country. Is that something you thought you would be able to do . No. It makes me laugh hearing you say it out loud, because there are days where it doesnt make sense to me and ive lived it. So i can see why it doesnt make sense to hardly anyone else. Host an excerpt on what was a 14minute story. We want to welcome shawn. Thanks for being with us. Guest thanks for having me here. Host so tell us your story. Guest my story starts with me standing in front of a federal judge as im being sentenced to months in three federal prison foy my role in five armed bank robberies. And then i go to prison and find that i have a love and aptitude for the law. I start writing briefs for other prisoners, the Supreme Court grants two of those briefs and i get out and go to law school and become a law professor at georgetown. Host im going to ask you the same question steve asked you. 38 hours of interviews for a 14 minute piece . Guest yes. Theyre very indepth there. Host what were you thinking before you decided to rob the banks . Guest i wasnt. Thats the problem. I was 21, wild, and reckless, and imma tour. I had kind of spiraled downward with both depression and drug and alcohol use. But the big thing was i just didnt think of the consequences. I just was a reckless foolish young man. Host where did these robberies take place . Guest all around rural nebraska caught . D how were you guest caught . Guest i dont know. The f. B. I. Caught me and they found 150,000 directly traceable to the bank in the trunk of my car. Host then walk us through the transformation that you went through. Youre in a prison cell. And then what happens . Guest i get a job in the prison law library. When i first start working there all i do is just hand out books. The reason was those books when did pull them off the shelves were very big and thick and intimidating. And it felt like they were written in another language. But then in june of 2000, the Supreme Court handed down a that i and every federal prisonner in the country thought could lead to a sentence reduction. So i started studying the law and prepared a brief for myself and sent it off to court and that was the start of my legal career. Host you are now married, father of two children. Guest daughter and son. Host and your wife is studying at Catholic University . At s she as in law school Catholic University. Host when did you decide to be a lawyer . Guest there were a lot of people who told me i should go to law school. For every person who said you can go to law school, i had probably a hundred lawyers tell go oull never be able to to law school. Even if you can youll never be given a license by any state. Host so you can speak about this from a very personal point of view. What can you tell us about your 11th years in prison guest well, i would say that i learned a lot while i was in prison. T for the last five or six years i was just warehoused. And by that i mean, the first five years i had made pretty substantial change in my life. I had to have responsibility in part because i was representing these other prisoners and i had really grown out of a lot of the immaturity that i came to prison with. Then the last five years i was just kind of stuck there. The reason is our prison systems do not reward a pursuit of excellence. No matter how much you change in your life, no matter how successful you become, it esnt matter to the prison system. Host do you know the percentage of those in prison come out and go back into prison . Guest it depends on which system youre talking about, whether its the federal system or some of the state systems. But the system. Host do you know the percentage of those in fiveyea rate is anywhere from 45 all the way up to 75 . Zphroo so our prisons are not producing great outcomes in part because, again, prison is not the place for personal growth. At least to how prisons are constituted in the United States. Host have your son or daughter asked you about your time or do them to . Guest weve had discussions about it. My son came to an event that i did last year, with the federal judge that sentenced me. That was the first time i had seen the judge since the day of sentencing. And my 7yearold son came and listened and asked a few questions. But for the most part my kids, they dont care what dad did prior to having them. In some ways ive kind of been reborn with my wife and kids. Host what was that like to be with the judge who sentenced you . Guest ive never had any animosity. He gave me the lowest he could at the time under mandatory federal sentencing guidelines. I used to think that my sentence was there was noth wrong with it, but thats in part because i compared it to all the sentences i saw in federal prison. And what i tell you now is for most crimes, if were just looking at deterg that individual person from commiting new crimes, sentences over 10 years are way too long. Host our guest is shawn, now an associate professor at Georgetown University school of law. We are dividing our phone lines among parties. We also have a line for those who have served time in prison. You can also send us a tweet. Guest theres something fundamentally incompatible about saying on the one hand that we are the land of liberty and on the other recognizing that we incarcerate our citizens at a greater rate than any country on the planet. Or at least the ones that we can get accurate statistics from. Host the numbers are on the your screen. Caller thank you for taking my call. I want to begin by there was another story in the Washington Post about a Supreme Court law clerk who also grew up here in washington. So all the odds are stacked against her but she somehow made it to become a law clerk in the highest court here in our country. So your story and her story are both very admirable. I wanted to ask about these Educational Programs for reintroducing these prisoners from the criminal Justice System to society. And there was a lot of pushback. I believe there was some Financial Aid that they were giving out to prisoners so they could learn a trade or a skill so they can hopefully get another job when they reenter society. But naturally, americans pushed back against that because they just viewed it as us giving money to people who are convicted felons. And on one hand there is some validity to that. But on the other hand, its sort of what you mentioned with people are damned based on their prior lives and theyre just trying to make it again in society. Our country gives second, third, fourth chances. And i just want to get your thoughts. But the reality that people arent really supportive. Guest thanks for first bringing up the story you were talking about, is tiffany wright. I served with her when i clerked for the d. C. Circuit and she is now clerking tor Justice Sotomayor and has a remarkable story how she got there as well. To answer your question, i agree it feels strange to give prisoners Educational Opportunities and job training considering they have committed crimes. T that view is also very shortsighted if what we want is that while people are serving punishment is for them change their lives around and have job skills and job training, so that when they come out they arent commiting new crimes of endangering the Public Safety. We want, eally what spending a little bit of money on the front end help those people when they get out. Its going to save a high we wa spending a little number on the back end when we dont have to reprosecute and reincarcerate that person. The institution has done several studies on this. Of incarcerating one person for one year in prison is anywhere from 30,000 to 80,000 a year. Of its very expensive and dangerous when you just warehouse people for decades, kick them out to the streets and then wonder why a miracle doesnt happen and they dont have success. Ost the book lawman, my story of robbing banks winning Supreme Court cases and finding redemption. Hes also the Founding Partner of the website prison profess sors. Com. Tell us your story, sandra. Wiveragetsdz caller my story is not as dramatic. I am a twice convicted felon over 22, 25 years ago. Drug since gone to rehabilitation through a Charity Program over 20 years a happily have lived useful and sober existence since. A happy life. And today im in the legal profession. Im a masters graduate and i would like to go on to law school. At this time im a family mediater and i see all the time that the family goes through eones ess of som conviction, and the family either flourishes in the change to that convicted felons life or either falls with that felon en theres no outreach, when theres no link between what youve done to what you could do or who you could become. When theres no link to that, when theres no hand saying here if youre willing, here it is. Without that, i certainly would i dont know. I would probably be dead at this point. But through the grace of many people that have encouraged me to go forward and ive had a lot of doors closed. Interviewed by people that just loved everything, loved my credentials but the moment i told them honestly before this interview closes i would like to let you know i am a convicted felon but since been awarded clemsy years ago and even through all that i ave been turned down for jobs. Housing even. I applied for an apartment down in the keys some years ago and they told me i couldnt live there because i was a convicted felon. Host im going to jump in. Thank you for telling us your story. Well get a response. Guest this is part of the problem with the criminal Justice System. We dont incentivize people while theyre in prison to make the right changes. And then our punishment scheme goes on forever. I think people naturally think that when someone serves time in prison and theyre done, the punishment ends. But the punishment really just begins there. Here are 3 to 4,000 collateral convictions. Be denied jobs, employment, federal benefits, the right to vote, and thousands of other things. It creates a system where people that have felony conviction ks then never really truly assimilate back into society and get on their feet because we put so many hurdles in their way. When i was released from federal prison i had never been on the internet, never seen an ipad, an i phone, an ipod. These sorts of Little Things like training for computer skills could have cost me jobs. And if that would have happened i would not be sitting here today. So we need to take a more longer term view of what we want from the criminal Justice System. Because right now where we send people to prison and make it more likely than not that they will get out and commit new crimes doesnt really benefit anyone, tax payers, crime victims, or the prisoners themselves. Host this is from debbie. God bless you. Guest there is this huge trial penalty. In part because congress has created a lot of federal laws and written them very broadly and gives prosecutors the discretion. And when they have these mandatory minimums they can basically stack charges upon someone so that if they do go to trial theres a huge pement. Ill give you an example. I have a friend in federal committed adam, almost the identical crimes i did. No one was hurt. He only difference between his case and my case was i pled guilty case and my case was i pled guilty he went to trial. I had a good defense lawyer he did not. I had a reasonable prosecuter he did not. I received a sentence of 12 years, three months, adam received a sentence of 215 years in federal prison for exercising his right to trial by jury. Ost from patrick. Next up is jared. Tell us your story. Caller hi, cspan. My story about nine years ago, i had a few drink and i went in to knock nd i tried on the neighbors door, the persons door, to see, you know, because it was winter time here in minnesota it gets awfully cold, and there was no answer. So i seen their car. I ended up taking it and i ended up getting caught. In the a few months county. In here in minnesota its like a year and a day. So i spent one day in prison. Well then i ended up straightening out my life. But i also wanted to say this aint the land of the free because where you have 5 of the population but 25 of the prisoners of the world, that is ot land of the free. Host thank you, sir. Guest i agree with that. Thats in part because we have too much criminal law. Just for just the federal system alone there are over 5,000 regulations and statutes carrying criminal pement. Its hard for me to conceive of 5,000 things a person can do that are so egregious that it would wasnt actually putting that person in jail or prison as a punishment. We have too much criminal law, we have too much discretion in the hands of prosecutors. We dont fund indigent defense sufficiently enough. We have all of these procedural protections in the constitution. But if you dont have a lawyer that can weaponize that and trying to uphold your rights in court, those rights dont mean a great deal. So, again, we really have to consider what were wanting from the trying to uphold your rights in court, criminal system. If just punishment is all were after and were not concerned about Public Safety and rehabilitation, then we have the perfect system. But if we want better outcomes, people coming out of prison and ading lawabiding successful lives, then we really need to change things. Host you have used the term a couple of times ware housing. How did you spend your days and how were you treated by the guards . Guest i spent my days in prison reading a lot of legal books. Deal re werent a great of programs for people while i was inside. To give you one example, the prison i was at had a really great Welding Program. People were learning how to weld. This was a skill that when you get out employers dont necessarily care about whether you have a criminal background. If you can do the job theyll hire you. And i had friends that were coming out making 25 an hour welding out deal of programs for people while of is for prisoners thats kind of the gold standard. And a new warden came in, changed the program, took the Welding Program out, and replaced it with a an Associates Degree program in business management. We all know that when people get out of prison the first thing people want to do is hire them to manage their business. These were the kinds of decisions i saw in the federal bureau of prisons all the time that made very little sense. And its no wonder that the reresidivism rates are so high for people coming out. Host where did you serve . Guest i served in a federal prison in illinois. Host lets go to bob. Good morning. Caller hi, professor. Im a one of the greatest advantages in this country as far as im concerned is opportunity. I would like to find out whether youve had any studies people tell us whether like hispanics or blacks who have gotten out of prison and risen to the level you have. Guest thank you. Of people. One of my partners or prison professors, cofounder served 26 straight years in federal prison. While he was in prison he got a bachelors degree, two masters degrees, wrote seven books and became a blogger for Huffington Post and forbes all while serving at 18 different federal institutions. Michael now has been out for ree years and manages 3 president 5 million in properties. He goes to speak at prisons and conferences all over. I have another friend named dwayne who graduated from yale his law , received license from connecticut, and who is doing work on Public Defense and parole and will soon be his law doing the phd p at yale, and he is an African American man. The problem is we just dont have enough of these Success Stories coming from any race, in part because, again, the prison systems do not reward any sort of pursuit of excellence. And we dont insent vise prisoners. California has come up with a new proposition where it said we are going to insent vise prisoners to take programs and better their lives so when they ome out of prison they are not commiting new commiting new offenses. I think thats the approach that most jurisdictions need to ake. Host you were not alone in robbing these banks. What happened to your colleague . Guest host they are all theyre all doing various things and i like to say you dont have to be a georgetown law professor to have success coming out of prison. So they are all doing various jobs and have not gone back to prison. Im just very proud of them ticks are he stats out. So bad. And they too have managed to overcome that. Host here is a tweet. Uest i have mixed thoughts. I have not seen enough studies to determine whether or not it actually works in that people with felony convictions are employers. Red by im not convinced that that if we are putting the question on the employers. Application, pushing the question down to the interview process. If thats the case maybe thats not the way to handle it. I just dont know because ive not studyd it enough. What i would like to see is corporations come out and say we are going to hire people with felony convictions, and getting businesses to come out and affirmtively do that. I think maybe another way to ban the box legislation. Host the book is called lawman. My story of robbing banks, winning Supreme Court convictions, and finding redemption. Welcome to the program. Caller i wanted to say good morning and thanks for having me on. I have a question. I was just wondering, i did four years here in maine state correctional facility for possession of oxycodone. When i got up there, i never had a criminal history or nothing. I dont have a violent history. I grew up in a good family all that stuff. I even hired a lawyer, paid cash, all that. Didnt go through the system and have them pay for me. So they i get up there, i take the plea deal of four years. I kind of got sand bagged. I got up there and theres serial sex offenders everywhere, all through the prison systems and theyre doing nine months and a day to a yearandahalf, two years. I dont understand why they would hand these are pills that the government ol loud doctors and pharmaceutical companies to hand out and then they get in hands of somebody like me, 18, 19, im 32 now. I dont know how theyll let a sex offender out on the street and then they dont care it seems like. Then put them right across in portland city here, right in the city of maine, right near a high school. And just set them out when they get out. Then they allow them to live near schools, in portland they put them near a boys and girls club. Guest i dont know how things work in maine, so i cant speak about that. But i tell you that in the federal system in most states people who commit sex offenses are punished incredibly harshly in the federal system its usually a mandatory minimum, sometimes 10, 15, 20 years. Greatly. E punished the question is whether or not those punishments work. And one of the things that undergirds sentencing in america is this belief that if we punish one person harshly it will deter everyone else from commiting that crime. The problem is i dont think gr the question is whether or not those punishments that actually happens. It doesnt happen because the people that commit crimes are young men who dont think about the consequences or theyre people with drug addiction, alcohol addiction, mental health, impulse control. So these are not people that were able to weigh out the consequences. But even if they did they would have to learn, then they would a 500 page guideline manual that lawyers and judges misapply every day in federal court. And to think that someone would actually do that and take into punishment the a 500 page before they commit crimes, ive never seen it. In 11 years in federal prison i never met one person who knew how much time they were facing. So this thought of general deterrence i just have never seen any ed of it. Host did you have any interest in the law punishment before as a teenager . Guest i did not. I couldnt have named a right in the bill of rights when i entered federal prison. Host i will share a couple weets. Guest i think thats right. I think that in this counterry weve made the decision that were just going to punish. And we only think about the in terms of incarceration. And we dont think about all the punishments that follow once you have that felony in te and stigma. I was denied an apartment as recently as three years ago when i was clerking for judge brown on the d. C. Circuit. The apartment complex called and said we just cant rent an apartment to you. And i said im soon to be a lawyer and clerk on the second most Important Court in the country. I think you can trust me. The response was i dont know what clerk but felony conviction is an oosh salute bar here. So no matter how much i transcended what i did in my past, i will continually be punished for it forever. And thats part of the reason why we dont have much success with people being rehabilitated in the country. Host how did you end up at georgetown . Guest when i was finished with my clerkship, i applied for a teaching fellowship there, a place that helps courts of appeals. We take cases on appointment. Usually the clients are indigent litigants, criminals, dchts, people going through the immigration system. I was at georgetown for two years there and then i applied fulltime teaching position at law schools over the fulltime teaching position at law schools over the country and georgetown was the one that said yes. Host and your criminal record was not a hindrance. Guest in fact, i think the faculty at georgetown view it as i can bring something to the students that most law schools dont have. Which is experience inside the criminal Justice System and out. So ive seen it from the inside, ive litigated cases from the outside. Host you mentioned something earlier. Youre in prison, you come out and you see an ipad, you see the web, you see email, you twitter and all this new technology that is out there. What went through your mind . Was it twitter and all surreal . Guest it was overwhelming. Im not one that has a great deal of anxiety but the first 0 days out of federal prison, i was consuming 5,000 to 6,000 calories a day and losing weight just because i was overwhelmed with choice. I remember one day just standing in a walmart, in the aisle because i needed some tooth paste and i was not used to an entire wall of choices. So it was a big hurdle for me to overcome that. I got a job working in a place that helps lawyers all over the country file briefs to the u. S. Supreme court and the woman who was training me, we would type in information in these forms, she would often say just cut and paste. I didnt know what that meant. When i thought cut and paste im thinking paper and scissors and had no idea because i was computer ill lit rat. And it really hindered my progress. Host our next caller greg republican line. Good morning. Caller thanks for taking my all. You cited figures of federal incarceration figures from the Southern Poverty Law Center. My problem is i cant see where you and the Mainstream Media can use the Southern Poverty Law Center as an objective goto source for these kinds of figures. The hate center has me on its watch list. Ok . Just because im an evangelical christian and i support james dobson and the Family Research council that he founded and the American Family center. These are at the heart of main street evangelicalism yet im on their hate list just because of who i am. The federal figures you cited, i wonder if theyre artificially high because the cases are being tried in federal court instead of the local courts around the country. Host thank you for the call. Guest those figures are not just cited by the southern poverty center. Those are figures that almost all the nonprofits use. Everyone recognizes. I dont think anyone in the government would disagree that we have a higher incarceration rate here in the United States than almost any other place on the planet. But going to your other point, there is no group of people who should be more for criminal reform than christians. Christians should understand kind of grace and why thats important and why that is missing in the system that punishes people for things they did for punishes people forever for the worst day theyve had, the worst month, or the worse year. We need to have a little more forgiveness for people who commit crimes, because if he if we dont well have this perpetual system of people in and out of prison forever and it leads to just more crime. In addition to his book, shawn was featured on 60 minutes last week. Its available on the website. Another question that steve not only robbed one bank but you did it how many times . Guest five. Host after the first time what were you thinking . Guest after the first time i just spired further. One bank but you did it how many times . Guest five. Host after the first time what and alcohol to try and forget what i had done. Use i make no mistake, i had a good family who taught me right from wrong. I knew what i was doing was wrong. The remorse and the guilt was i. Ake awful. So i turned to drugs and alcohol to get through that. Host how did you meet your wife . Guest my wife and i are from the same hometown. A sprawling metropolitan of 2500 people in nebraska. My wife became friends with my mom because my mom worked for her father, and my wife and i started writing and corresponding in prison and became really good friends through awful. Calls rned to 300 letters phone and visits. I got out in 2008, 2009. This was the height of the recession. No one was finding work let alone the guy that just did 11 years in federal prison and my secret n marie is the of most of my success. Host good morning. Caller good morning. Thank you for taking our calls and discussing things with us. Mine as twopart question. Looking at the Prison Industrial Complex from the corporate perspective. Theres great incentives for corporations, some of whom may e convicted felons themselves, to profit from the growth of private prisons and the need for prisoners to keep that business going. Perhaps you can discuss how that may impede Prison Reform and social justice or criminal justice reforms. Guest well, between the Law Enforcement lobby and the lobby for all these private companies that feed the mass incarceration criminal Justice System in america, they are much more effective lobbying group than prisoners are. So it does impede some of the efforts to make criminal justice reform. But im not necessarily convinced that private prisons are as awful as people tend to think they are. If you did change the incentive structures and required them to treat prisoners better and evaluated their performance by the reresidivism rate of people coming out, i think private prisons could be a good thing. But as theyre currently constituted, the incentive is for them to treat people badly and have them come back time and time again because they have to fill that bed which then gives the company a profit margin. Host next, st. Louis. A former inmate himself. Caller my name is rodney and i what my point is i had served 12 years in the missouri prison. En i came home, i was trying job. Rt looking for a whats gone on now, you know, im unemployed and im trying to find a job. Host how long have you been out of prison . Caller ive been out close to years. Douff skills to be applied to any particular position or douff skills to be applied to any particular position or positions . Guest i basically have experience in warehouse, fork lift. Host what would you say . Guest i understand. Its really hard to overcome that felony label. And you probably received very few job training and actual life skillswhile you served those 12 years in the missouri system. This is the dilemma prisoners face. I think when people view prisoners they dont understand why they revert back to crime. But a lot of times its not that the person wants to revert back to crime. They cannot make it because they cannot find employment or a place to live. Again, thats why we need to focus on people the day they come they cannot make it because they cannot in the pris getting them to take programs and understand that they need to make serious life changes so that the day they are released theyre ready. Host if our audience wants to get more information on your work, one website is the clarity and criminal law review. You said, tolerating unclear in the criminal arena has always been problematic because of the threat to liberty posed by unchecked prosecutorial discretion. Guest im not the only one to think that. I would tell you that the biggest believer in what you just said right there was justice scleia who said we allow congress to pass these broadlyworded laws, and he says the fuzzy leave the details to the courts to be sorted out. He says that causes all sorts of problems for the criminal Justice System. And he was a big believer in that we needed to make clearer laws and require congress to make the hard choices, rather than pushing it off to prosecute rgs and the courts about how to define the contours of our United States criminal code. Host chuck from springfield, oregon. Welcome to the conversation. Caller thank you for taking my call. I was convicted of a felony in 1982. I went to prison, was sentenced to five years. I just put in for a pardon in 2015, with the state of idaho. My hearing was on the 5th of 2017, this month. And it was 12 days ago i havent heard anything yet. But what would my Legal Options be if i am denied a pardon . I havent been to prison since 1984. I havent been in any trouble. Guest unfortunately, im not not aware of what the options would be for the state of idaho just because ive not studied that state and its laws. For most pardons you either have to go to the state governor, state pardon board, or the president of the United States. In your case, if it was a state conviction you would have to get that from the state of idaho. But, again, this raise it is issue about we do not incentivize people even when they get out and lead a lawabiding successful life, to overcome that felony conviction. Florida, for example, if you wrote a bad check for 300, 25 ars ago, served a few months in prison and have led a lawabiding and successful life since, you are precluded from voting, forever. And we do not again, centivize people to do the right thing and eventually overcome the stigma of being a felon. Host our last call from right thi new jersey mfment liz, good morning. Caller good morning. Ive enjoyed your program today. Adult literacy teacher at a state prison here in new jersey for almost 15 years. I think that one point needs to be brought out, that we are doing more ware housing, even in states like new jersey, which are more progressive. Than we should be. A chance dont get to improve their academic standings and their get their high school diploma, at least. Youre almost ensuring that theyre probably going to be back with the exception ive noticed the time i was there that men who were paroled after about age 230 have a much lower age 30, have a much lower reresidivism rate than those paroled say between 1929. Host thank you. Guest post secondary education is the great equalizer. When prisoners come to me and returning citizens come and ask what can we do to kind of get past this . I always tell them education. The more education you get the more likely people are willing to overlook your felony conviction. But you also raised a good point about how people age out and the re residivism rate is lower for people coming out of their 30s and 40s. This is the exact reason we dont want to impose 20year sentences on 20yearolds. The reason they have committed crimes is probably because their brains have not matured at the level necessary to process what the consequences are of their actions on others. But they probably will by the time theyre in their 30s and 40s. People tend to age out of crime, but if we continue to incarcerate them when theyve aged out of crime were not really increasing Public Safety. Were just ware housing people. And almost all studies have indicated the longer one spends in prison the less likely they are to come out and be a success. Host your book law man my story of robbing banks, winning Supreme Court cases, and finding redemption ufment thank you so much for being with us. Guest thanks for having me. Host a reminder, our conversation with Hillary Clinton on the 2016 campaign and her book what happened. Also her views on the trump presidency. Not very well. Sad to me. I take no pleasure in any of this. I knew the kind of campaign he ran which i found deeply sad to disturbing. I said many times i didnt think he had the experience or the temperament that would qualify him to be president. But people say and do things in campaigns all the time. You cover this from start to finish. So i was hoping that we would see a donald trump emerge who understood the gravity of the position he was about to assume. I think it has not worked out the way i would have wanted for our country. Instead, i believe we are still seeing starting on inauguration day, a lot of the same irresponsible, impulsive behavior that is sending Hillary Clinton on President Trump and her book this afternoon at 2 15 eastern time and tonight at 11 05 eastern time on book tv. Tomorrow morning, we look a head at a busy week in washington. At housing aid tomorrow morning at 7 00 a. M. Eastern time, four clock on the west coast. Newsmakers is next