Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing Examines Benefits Of Self-Driving Trucks 20170916

Good morning. Ourrtainly want to express support for and thoughts and prayers for all of the victims of the recent hurricanes and, in the state of florida our colleague and, raking member of this committee senator nelson. He ended sen. Rubio there today, as they should be he ended senator rubio are there today. We certainly want to express our support. This committee has been working for some time in a bipartisan fashion to address the advancement of economist vehicles. I want to thank Autonomous Vehicle. Unfortunately unable to join us today, we put a lot of work into this effort to date. I look forward to continue to work with my colleagues to introduce and pass bipartisan legislation. Broadthis committees jurisdiction over transportation interstate commerce and Vehicle Safety, we are wellpositioned to oversee a draft and emergence of this transformative technology. Beginning last congress, we held t two hearing two hearings and it will take a look closer with promise and implications of this technology for trucks and larger vehicles. Automated Vehicle Technology , spanningpromise mobility, reducing traffic congestion, and related admissions. Increasing productivity around other benefits. Themost exciting aspect is potential to save thousands of lives every year on our nations highways. 35 thousande than people died in major car crashes in the United States. More than 90 of those deaths attributable to human error. Automated vehicles have the potential to reduce the numbers drastically. Too many lives lost on our roads, i look forward to hearing about how Automated Vehicles, including trucks can help us with this. Trucks in the conversation about Automated Vehicles is important as we seek to improve safety. It also puts our economy on a level Playing Field as other countries around the world deploy automated trade trucks. Trucks traveled over 280 billion miles to carry over 70 of the goods on a roadways. In 2017, Energy Administration information studies suggested our trucks could yield fuel savings between 6. 7 and 18. 6 , improving our akamai competitive economic competitiveness. Im glad that mr. Speaker has joined us to speak on the impact of trucking on our economy, and the role of big trucks in our innovation. Testing and development is already ongoing, Companies Like hubert. Google, starsky, and others have invested in automated truck technology. Truck manufacturers like navistar actively pursuing Automated Technologies and trucks. , scott fernandez, who joins us today sees this technology firsthand. He participated in a test of auto, now the truck start up, which drove 120 miles on interstate 25 in colorado. As other countries devote significant attention and effort, strong federal leadership will be necessary to maintain our position as local leader and ensure these vehicles are tested and deployed safety safely. The department of transportation has updated his policy guides on Automated Vehicles. Im pleased to see action on this transformative technology. The new guidance improves on similar efforts by the prior administration, takes the same position. Under the same Regulatory Framework. Passedthat have Automated Vehicle legislations cover all the eagles cars and trucks. Addressedo, they have automated voter vehicles without leaving out certain classes. Its important to consider all impasse of this new technology. Its crucial that we hear about the potential impact on jobs, and engage in a clear at discussion about the best prepare for the future. Im glad mr. Hall was able to join us today. 3 million commercial drivers in the u. S. , they are the backbone of the economy. Technological advancements have the potential to expect them in very different ways. Including positive ways. Technology should make the drivers life easier and safer, which would improve the rest of our Transportation System and those who use it everyday. Automation will bring many benefits and challenges, but they are not new challenges. In response to the challenges of his term, automation is not our enemy, it can be the ally of our prosperity if we look ahead. We will understand what was to come and we will set our course wisely after planning for the future. Im glad we are continuing the discussion today. I look forward to hearing from all of our witnesses as we move forward to address Automated Vehicles. Turn to senator peters for his opening statement. You for calling this a very important to hearing. As the chairman mentioned, im in a this seat because senator nelson is back home and his great state of florida, helping to begin the very long recovery after the devastating hurricane irma. Our thoughts and prayers are with the senator nelson with all of the people of the state of florida. As the chairman to mention, and self driving, which is the result of months of collaborative effort, countless meetings with stakeholders across the spectrum of interest, and further bipartisan work from senator nelson. I want to think chairman blown and his staff or the many long hours and effort that have gone into this bipartisan draft. Provideislation will the first ever changes in federal law, targeted at ushering in a new era of mobility and transportation innovation. Will facilitate the safe developments and adoption of self driving cars, reduce existing regulatory barriers and establish a new Regulatory Framework to support this innovation Going Forward. Alsotantly, it will lecture that the United States leads the International Race to deploy these new technologies. We must develop and build them here in our country, creating a new 21st century manufacturing jobs as well. The remainder of this month, we will work diligently to resolve and finalize the outstanding issues in this draft legislation , including the topic in todays hearing. Whether highly automated trucks and buses should be part of this particular legislation, or addressed in some future piece of legislation. While gathering feedback on chairman blown and my draft, many stakeholders were clear that the prospect of self driving trucks raises a very different set of issues from selfdriving car. Ultimately, those same stakeholders expressed serious concerns with including self driving trucks in this bill without a much more robust discussion and evaluation of their impact by industry academia, and the government. Draft legislation was informed by two Congress Committee hearings in march of 2016, and june of 2017. Two iterations of the federal Automated Vehicle policy. All of which were focused on highly automated, lightweight, passenger cars. Finally, i will note that the house recently passed its self driving vehicle legislation unanimously without the inclusion of self driving trucks weighing over 10,001 pounds. It is indisputable that the Trucking Industry is important to our economy and the day today moremer needs delivering than 10 billion tons of freight over your, deploying more than 3 million americans as Truck Drivers. The bus industry provides important Transportation Options for many americans, and create thousands of jobs. Major changes to these industries, brought on by have levels of automation will have major impact on jobs, transportation, and the economy, not to mention roadway safety. We need to make sure that when we do establish a Regulatory Framework for so having trucks, we get it right. After having considered all of the implications. We need to be able to answer fundamental questions, for example, what is the Trucking Industry timeline of highly automated truck . What they deployed levels for five automated trucks, or stick to lower levels of automation . What specific federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards will highly automated trucks need exemptions from . Do the unique characteristics of the Trucking Industry require additional safeguards for highly automated trucks, particularly for safety and Cyber Security issues . How will changes to the Vehicle Safety standards impact operations and enforcement . Should we be considering those impacts now . What are the job impacts of highly automated trucks, and what are the industries plans for retaining or assigning the drivers who are in danger of losing their jobs . Discussions, we have not gotten as clear of an understanding on issues related to self driving trucks as we have during our countless discussions on self driving cars. As a result, im of the mind that holly automated trucks are not right for inclusion in this bill. Before i close, i want to be clear that improving safety on our highways is important to me. It is one of the reasons why advancing self driving car legislation is so important to me, as well. I also recognize that in the longterm, self driving trucks and buses are also intended to improve safety on our highways. I question assertions that excluding self driving cars excluding self driving trucks from this particular bill will result in a less safe roads, and they dont merit special considerations Going Forward. We cannot allow such premature conclusions to stand in this committees way of talking specifics and getting the answers we need to have a more complete understanding of the safety, workforce and policy implications of highly automated trucks. I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today, and for helping start this very important conversation. I look forward to the testimony. We will move to our panel. We want to thank you all for being here, i look forward to hearing from you. We would ask if you can define your oral remarks as close to five minutes. Your statement will be included, but it will maximize the opportunity for members of the committee to ask questions. We will start on my left with colonel scott hernandez, chief colorado patrol. Then to mr. Troy clark, chief executive officer at navistar. Deborah herdsman, the president executive job officer of the National Safety cancer. Crispier, president and chief executive officer of the American Trucking association. And mr. Ken of all, secretarytreasurer of. Colonel hernandez, if you would proceed . Good morning chairman soon, senator peters, and members of the community. Thank you for holding this important hearing and inviting me here today to discuss the role Automated Vehicles will play in the future, and how they can improve safety on our nations highways. Im the kernel of the state patrol, im honored to lead 1200 thread troops whose goal is to save lives on our highways. This year, for 10 people have been killed on colorado roadways, a staggering number. We are committed to reducing the number of People Killed 20. The Enforcement Community to zero. The Enforcement Community and economist vehicles. Our commitment is to reduce crashes, injuries, and fatalities on our nations highways. We know Automated Technology has already saved lives through the elimination of human error, such as distracted driving, and many other unsafe driving habits. I am also a member of the commercial Vehicle Safety alliance. It works to improve commercial Vehicle Safety and uniformity bite truck and bus regulatory Safety Agencies together. With industry regulators to solve highway transportation and safety problems. Cva hasing the benefits long been a supporter of legislation, regulation, and policies that encourage the deployment of the Safety Technologies to improve cnb safety. Even to preventing crashes, or mitigating the severity of crashes, Autonomous Vehicles are the natural next progression in the pool Safety Technology and Enforcement Community stands ready to assist in making sure these technologies are deployed as seamlessly and as effectively as possible. Of 2016, theymmer approached colorado interested in expressing an interest aid delivery in another Thomas Emerson vehicle autonomous commercial vehicle. There was no law prohibiting the use of Autonomous Vehicles to include this scenario in colorado, we chose to partner with auto two major it remained paramount. We also understood the potential for government enforcement to learn from the process to participate in relations in the future. Of octobery hours 20, 2016, an autonomous commercial vehicle delivered a product traveling 120 miles from Fort Collins Colorado to guard springs in a level for autonomous demonstration. After entering southbound i25, on the fort collins port of entry, the driver placed the vehicle in autonomous mode and retreated to the space behind and between the passenger seat. It traveled southbound on i25 for over 120 miles until the driver took over the control. The demonstration highlighted the future possibility and use of autonomous commercial vehicles. The current state patrol and state of transportation to reduce the risk associated with this menstruation. We used federal Autonomous Vehicle policy and californias economist vehicle laws for rules and guidance. Preevent testing was monitored for consistency and achievement through specific safety performance dates. Raging from offroad testing to on drug testing. The truck was inspected and deemed by certified safety anpectors to ensure it had appropriate level of Safety Management system in place to safely operate in commerce. State patrol and department of transportation received detailed, weekly briefings on performance through required safety and testing order calls, including testing of scenario plans for risk and fall back. In an effort to ensure the demonstration was comedic completed in a safe matter, the state escorted the economist vehicle in a similar fan at fashion as a motorcade spectra demand. Andtoring safety protocols situational assessment. While we will still need to work to total solutions, they may progress to understanding the perspective of other governmental agencies, understanding Autonomous Vehicle fashion investigations, understanding light Cyber Security will be essential. Understanding how the Vehicle Systems work, and how they begin advancing the process of standardized procedures. Understanding the development of a unique Regulatory Framework and how to better partner with all stakeholders. This demonstration illustrated the probability that autonomous mercia Motor Vehicles, when operated at the right locations, time, and location, can reduce stress traffic risks and congestion. They have provided enforcement apartment Important Information to the partners responsible for establishing the necessary legal and Regulatory Framework for the implementation of Autonomous Vehicle technologies. Clearly, technical advances in the past have saved lives. This technology will continue to save lives in the future. Eric sprinted colorado makes it clear that its time to begin planning our experience in colorado makes it clear that time to begin planning. Guidetional framework to the department of Autonomous Vehicles. We believe that consideration must be given to the industry. We all have many questions that need to be addressed as we work toward deployment of these technologies. Many questions need to be answered before Autonomous Vehicles can be allowed to enter the driving population. That is the purpose of these questions, its not too slow innovation or create roadblocks to the technology. The Enforcement Community recognizes the safety benefits and welcomes any changes that improve roadway safety. That inspectors, investigators, and the industry understand the role of this technology and how it will impact cnb enforcement programs. We strongly urge you to consider all facets of this issue, including what to do once the vehicles are on the roads. Doing so will help avoid uncertainty for the motor carrier industry and Enforcement Community. I appreciate this opportunity to appreciate artist may in this timely discussion on automated commercial vehicles. Good morning. I am honored to be her this morning to discuss an important topic in our industry autonomous applications in commercial trucks. The german serve as president , chief executive officer of navistar incorporated, a manufacturer of interNational Trucks, diesel engines, and military vehicles. Headquartered in lyell, illinois, outside of chicago. There are over 12,000 employees worldwide. I would like to provide a quick overview of our industry. There are four major commercial truck manufacturers in our country today. It is a small, highly Competitive Industry expected to produce 325,000 vehicles this year, a small fraction compared to the small car and light truck market. Vehicles to independent drivers operating only one truck. We build trucks and buses via mass customization. The one tailored to meet specific needs of a particular customer. For liability and upfront cost, all impact decisions. From truck ranges in price 60,000 to 150,000. They represent major capital investment. The only generate revenue for customers when they are up and running. Given all of this, our customers invest in the latest Safety Technology to protect their valuable capital assets, as well as their most important human capital, the driver. This explains why rates for technologies like electronic stability control, cruise control, cameras for object detection, lane Departure Warning systems, have been increasing every year. We call these advanced driver systems systems, or a. Many of them also serve as the Building Blocks to greater automation. Navistars is Autonomous Technology as an extension of safety Technology Already in place. We believe this will help reduce human error, which accounts for approximately 94 of all Motor Vehicle accidents. Before we arrive at the future, however, our customers tell me they have much more immediate needs. They already have driverless trucks, thats because they have trouble recruiting and maintaining drivers. Drivers,tire trained our customers do as we continue to develop the technologies that could lead to Autonomous Vehicles. We will make much of that available to provide to drivers with peter ease of use, comfort, and safety productivity, and efficiency, factors that i believe will attract more people to this profession. Personally, i believe drivers will become more like airline pilots, even more highly trained and skilled than they are today. They will be employed to manage multiple 8 00 for the vehicles. Ensuring the safe and secure operation of the trucks under their care. Autonomous technology is not being traded, our industry is developing vehicle to Vehicle Systems to allow cars and trucks to talk to one another. As federal regulations are being drafted, we wanted to ensure that passenger and commercial vehicles are following similar safety and Design Standards for optimal compatibility on the highway. Otherwise, passenger cars equipped with the will to Vehicle Technology may not be able to communicate effectively with large commercial vehicles and could create blank spots that could create inadvertent hazards. Our industry of businesstobusiness transactions, the Development Rates are long, adoption take more time than in the Light Vehicle industry. Wen we test on the road, have to match the conditions our customers face, so we test trucks in many different states and climates. Trucks cross multiple state lines daily, and sometimes traversed the same place multiple times in one day. Its important for us to our desperate dismay in safe advanced driving technologies now. Reading clerk regarding that providing clarity will meet the future needs of our customers while minimally is rubbing the industry. Advanced driving and economist technologies will come to our industry. A driverl displayed in is not likely to happen. Technologiesese will improve safety, productivity, and lower costs, as well as lead to more efficient use of the existing infrastructure. In the commercial vehicle industry, we have proven that regulations and technology can Work Together to advance the interest of all stakeholders. I bought the committee for holding this year so we can begin dialogue on this issue. I welcome any questions at the right time. Thank you chairman thune, Ranking Member peters, and members of the committee. As president and ceo of the National Safety council, i strive to realize our mission of. Elating preventable deaths we believe all crash fatalities are data that preventable. Today, over 100 people die on our road every day in our vehicles, and in crashes involving our vehicles. We can help reduce these statistics with technology. In 2004, i had the privilege to serve as a member and chairman of the national Transportation Safety board. During my 10 years there, i thought too many commercial Motor Vehicle crashes that could have prevented. They could have been prevented by advanced technology. The ntsb first called on putting advanced technology in commercial vehicles back in 1995. It is an issue that is on their most wanted list today. We have certainly gone beyond the level two technology that they had hoped for and envisioned back in 1995, and are talking about fully operated Automated Vehicles. You have read our testimonies, there are facts and figures, in my long written testimonies and like to take my time with you this morning to share a personal story. Last year, i came home from a trip and my 10yearold son met me at the door. He said mommy did you see your car . Thats not a good thing when you walk in the door from a trip. I said what happened to my car . He took me into the garage and showed me. This picture appeared on the screen, my car. Ironic, the license plates is the safer on it. My husband was coming home to our house on a lower speed roadway, and was rearended by another vehicle as he slowed to allow an Emergency Vehicle to turn into the firehouse in front of him. Myng a former investigator, first questions to my husband worked what happened, what was going on, what was the situation, the circumstances, . Unfortunately, he didnt have a lot of good answers for me. The gentleman was a little bit older, and there was a dog in the car. For the next couple of days, i spent my time thinking what happened . Could it have been prevented . Did involve distractions . Did involve fatigue . Could it have been prevented . About three weeks later, i came home, and my husband was in a pretty somber mood. He told me he had received a call from the insurance adjuster was managing our claim. The insurance adjuster had just called the gentleman who was the driver of the jeep liberty, who had hit our car, mr. Nor in. When he asked to speak to mr. Norton,s son said that he had been killed in a crash. The insurance adjuster said i thought there were no injuries in the crash. He said my dad was killed on friday. Because we knew the information about the driver, we went to google, trying to find something out. Norton hadat mr. Been in an intersection crash in his jeep liberty shortly before. In this picture, this is what was in the newspaper. Again, the same questions started to run through my head. . What happened how did this happen . Who was at fault . Could this have been prevented . Didnt have something to do with what had happened three weeks before . As a safety professional who spent decades working on how to prevent transportation events and incidents, i realized well its important for us to understand why something happens, whats most important is to understand how we can prevent these things im occurring again. Preventthe ability to these fatalities that occur on our roads every day. Day, mr. Norton was a father, a member of a community, he had an extended network. That happens 100 times every day, and we can do more, we can do better. We can address this issue and help save lives. 20 if going to get we are going to get to zero we have to do all the things we can do to prevent them. This conversation begins that discussion. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. This testimony captures the importance of this issue. Its a great contribution to the safety story. The American Trucking federation has more than 30,000 member companiess, spanning all parts of the Trucking Industry from every size, type, and class of motor carrier operation. Companies,s, tech Diverse Membership is important for discussions like this one. When the Trucking Industrys key role in our economy meets rapidly developing technology. There are more than 7 Million People employed in the Trucking Industry. In in trucking related drugs the u. S. , including 3. 5 million Truck Drivers. One in 16 jobs in the u. S. Are trucking related, Truck Driving jobs are the top job in 29 states. Truck drivers who ata is celebrated this week as part of National Truck driver appreciation week, move more than 70 of our nations freight tonnage. Every corner of the country every day. Stores, factories, schools, hospitals, and is you are seeing today, they are on the front lines of disaster response, delivering supplies to help people in texas and florida live and rebuild after two historic storms. ,hose same drivers we believe will be a part of our industry for a long haul. Term some people use the anonymous and driverless interchangeably, the world of its Automated Vehicles will still have an Important Role for the drivers. Just as pilots play a key role in our Airline Industry, Truck Drivers will do the same on the ground by leveraging the benefits of Automated Technology while navigating the cityscapes and handling the customer pickups and deliveries. The Trucking Industry spends over 9 billion dollars annually on safety, including Technology Enhancements to help insure drivers and passengers of all vehicles make it safely to their destinations. The technology we are discussing today is the next step in Safety Technology the Trucking Industry is already investing in. This technologies becoming more robust in commercial and Passenger Vehicles to fully maximize the safety of other benefits of automated driving technology, it makes sense to provide protections and incentives for innovations in commercial vehicles, not just Passenger Vehicles. This includes federal preemption to ensure that state and federal regulations do not impede interstate commerce. It also includes the ability to receive exemptions from existing federal regulations so that new technology can be developed and tested both in commercial and noncommercial vehicles. We are at a critical moment in the development of economist technology. There are many questions to be answered, including those about Cyber Security, about the impact on trucking operations and how vehicles will interact with one another, as well as infrastructure. What is clear is that those questions should be answered for commercial and Passenger Vehicles at the same time. As you draft legislation intended to address many of these questions, i would respectfully ask that the committee considered the following points. First, ensure that the federal government has the sole to regulate automated Vehicle Technology. As an industry that routinely crosses state lines, the rules of the road must be the same across the to regulate automated Vehicle Technology. Country in order to maintain a free flow of goods. Our industry cannot be subject to a pass work of conflicting state rules. We service the entire country and the Trucking Industry needs uniform rules to effectively do not. Believe state governments must commit to supporting country in order to maintain innovation for both commercial and Passenger Vehicles using existing regulatory exemptions to allow manufacturers and Technology Companies to test and develop new systems. 30 federal agencies must coordinate their own missions with respect to Automated Vehicles. We believe the benefits of Automated Vehicles would be greatly enhanced by Vehicle Connectivity using the 5. 9 gigahertz safety spectrum. The use of this communication channel for vehicle to vehicle and a vehicle to Infrastructure Systems willfully unlock the potential of Automated Vehicles to improve safety, reduce traffic congestion, and decrease emissions. We encouraged the federal Communications Commission to preserve all seven channels of 5. 9 gigahertz spectrumf or safety and to take no action that could harm the initiatives the department of transportation is pursuing with this spectrum. Finally we urge the federal government to consider the existing slate of federal motor carrier safety regulations and how they might be impacted by increased automation as well as how regulations can accommodate this new technology and improve safety, productivity, and the environment. This should include the impact of Automated Vehicle use on csa scores, liability, and insurance regulations, speed limiters, and hours rules. This is not to say these regulations should be changed, but dot should first determine how an automated environment would impact the industry it regulates to minimize disruption and confusion as this Technology Becomes more robust and widely available. This concludes my testimony. Members of the committee, i thank you for the opportunity to testify on this important subject and look forward to questions. Thune, thank you for the opportunity to testify. I in the general secretarytreasurer of the union, the nations largest Transportation Union representing workers in the most every Transportation Industry. Teamsters members could be delivering anything from bakery goods to concrete to your latest online package, or getting you to work on time and safely transporting your kids to school. While nearly 600,000 of our 1. 4 million members turn a key and a stroke to start their workday u turn a key in a truck to start their workday, this does not just impact vehicles for a living. The future of fully Autonomous Vehicles could change the nature of work for those in nearly every part of the Transportation Industry in our country. Planning for the future and incorporating new technologies into our members daily life is not new to me or my union. In addition to my duties as general secretarytreasurer for over 20 years, i also served as director of the Union Package division. I ran the teamsters daily interactions with ups under the single largest collective Bargaining Agreement in north america. The issues facing the 250,000 teamsters that work for ups are inextricably tied to the corporation of new technology. The Logistics Industry has changed extraordinarily over time, and teamsters have been in the thick of it. We have strived to balance the corporation of countless pieces of new technology into the workplace while ensuring workers are guaranteed a right to avoid harassment and to always feel safe on the job. My career show me that new technologies can exist in an environment where workers are still taken care of. It takes strong and aggressive action from those workers to make sure that happens. Selfdriving vehicles have the change theo Transportation Industry. That can be for the better or for the worst, depending on the actions this committee, workers and others take in guiding their implementation onto our roads. Change the Transportation Industry. That can be for the better or for theit is incumbent upon this committee to assure workers are not left behind in this process. It is essential that American Workers are not treated as guinea pigs for unproven technologies that could put their lives at risk. The issues facing autonomous commercial trucks are different and more calamitous than those facing passenger cars. And once their own careful consideration. Consequent is for getting this wrong can be deadly both for workers and other drivers on the road. The discussion on Autonomous Vehicles has tended to focus on the impact two small personal cars on our daily lives, increasing mobility for the disabled and alleviating congestion in cities. These are all important topics. Taking a cookiecutter approach in dealing with those issues and applying it to heavy vehicles is reckless. I have yet to hear a serious discussion about how we will make sure an 80,000 pound automated truck will be able to maneuver around a warehouse or yard and not injure the countless workers occupying the same space. Or how he would make sure that the rules governing Driver Training requirement would be updated the moment one of those new vehicles is put on the road. We havent got to the largest issue, the potential impact on the likelihood and wages of millions of your constituents. These issues should be considered carefully and deliberately, not after the fact. Fall the discussion about the potential benefits that make a company this technology, i urge you can since it urge you to consider a healthy dose of realism. I urge you to recall some of the other issues this committee has so furiously worked on this year. This committee has spearheaded investigations into volkswagen knowingly cheating its customers out of emissions benefits, the airbag manufacturer takata knowingly sold defective airbags that claimed the lives of citizens. Market forces did not convince these companies not to cheat and push the envelope will walk what was safe. Envelope beyond what was safe. In a trucking, margins are tight and competition is fierce. New generation of Autonomous Vehicles will provide limitless opportunity for the same reckless behavior. There are so many an extra consider. Unchecked this technology could open up our citizens to having privacy breached to personal data sold. Issues such as worker harassment and tracking would be intertwined with existing collective Bargaining Agreement and workplace policies. Truck drivera will have to think about having his rig hacked and used as the next weapon in a barcelona style attack. And millions of americans could have paychecks decreased because half of their job has been automated away and their employer thinks they can get away with no longer paying them a full wage. A applaud you for having this hearing with the teamsters voice at the table. Withk forward to working the committee to ensure priorities and concerns of working families remain at the center of this debate and all aspects of automation, especially when we are considering commercial Motor Vehicles, it is more important to get it done correctly rather just got done quickly. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Thanks all of you for your testimony. We will have an opportunity to have members of the committee asked questions. They saw on your years of experience, do you believe autonomous Vehicle Technology can invent safety for trucks . Absolutely. As we have heard, it already has in many ways. Witnessing what happened on october 20 last year, it was clear there were some advantages. A couple those i did not capture in my initial testimony was that the hours give demonstration was at night when there was reduced traffic. That was up for safety concerns, and will be in the future. Just the timing possibilities. It was a level 4 demonstration. What that meant was there was still a driver there to get a vehicle onto the highway and into the terminal area. That driver was involved in that process. But without a doubt i believe there are some advantages. I think the key is that we are all at the table to discuss with them to discuss this together through the process and make sure that commercial vehicles are not left out. The fact that they have already demonstrated this puts us ind, and it shouldnt left shouldnt be left further behind in the process. Sen. Thune the crashes even highlight in your testimony are horrible and could have been mitigated with crash avoidance technology. You mentioned we can do things the same way. Since trucks are involved in some of the most jarring examples, would you say accelerating deployment of Automated Vehicle trucks should provide significant safety benefits . Ms. Hersman yes. With proper testing and controls, i think this is the game changer when it comes to highway fatalities. Advanced technology can solve many problems we struggled with for decades. It is important to have the conversations and issues you have outlined in your bill, whether it is data sharing, testing protocols, engagement of all the right stakeholders. These are all things we need to begin to discuss. Clark, is there any reason to think when it comes to Automated Vehicles that federal Safety Standards governing core Automated Technologies, things like sensor and radar, should be fundamentally different for developed atrs and different speeds . The basic Sensor Technology and that componentry you would put on the truck is similar to what is in cars. However our heavy vehicles are cars. Ifferent than they take longer to stop. They have high centers of gravity. One of the reasons why we need to advance at the right we are is because cars. They take longer to stop thts because these advances have yet to be engineered. We need the data from enhancers by Real Customers to understand what the proper validation practices will be, or what the engineering problems are we need to solve. We see no reason why commercial trucks should move forward at a different timetable than Light Vehicles. Sen. Thune this appears to be an instance in which many Trucking Companies and manufacturers are pushing for more federal regulation of the industry. Could you explain the reasons why you think more leadership from the federal government will accelerate the safety benefits of this new technology . Mr. Spear i would not say more regulation, but one seamless federal standard. That comes from federal leadership. We would advocate heavily for that as opposed to 50 different regulatory regimes. We move the economy. 70 of the freight was in your opening remarks. That is no small figure. We cross state lines every day. It is a reality our drivers face every day. Compliance with multiple state regimes would be very disruptive to the economy, to these companies, and i think it would be a johns issue over time if jobs issue over time if we are not able to move freight in a safe and profitable way. Having one seamless standard at the federal level is what we would advocate. It is certainly a much better approach in our view rather than a patchwork of conflicting state laws. Sen. Thune thank you. Peters thank you to each of our witnesses for outstanding testimony as we begin this important discussion about trucks and autonomy. I couldnt agree more that we need to get this right, that there is a great deal of potential in this technology. We have to be thoughtful about it. Haves certainly why we spent so much time on this issue related to automobiles. Hours and hours of conversations with all stakeholders. It has been a cumbrian program as we focus on automobiles. Trucks are different than automobiles. One deals with the employment impact, which you stated clearly. States. Job in over 20 folks who we represent in our communities could potentially have a significant impact. One we have to think carefully about, the impact they will have on our communities. In your testimony you said the ata believes the driver will retain an Important Role in trucking, even in Automated Vehicles. May paraphrase, i think that is in your written testimony. I think we can agree we dont want to see largescale job losses. I do not see in your testimony any data, studies, best practices, or Business Plans that address how a Company Operating today is prepared to address driver displacement. Mr. Clark mentioned drivers would still have a role in platooning as an example, but even that means a displacement of drivers. If you are platooning trucks, you have several trucks driving together. Normally you have each of those trucks with a driver in the front. Now you just may have one driver in front of a platoon. There are differences. My question what are you doing internally to prepare for possible driver displacement as a result of highly automated trucks . Quite frankly we dont view it as a displacement issue because we dont believe level 5, no steering will, no pedals, it imminent. We are driving we are focused on Driver Assist technology. If that is acceptable in this community, then we are talking about how to make their equipment more friendly, less congestion. These are measurable returns our fleets will invest in and good for drivers as well. We want them to be better community,rested. If technology can play a role in that, that is good for the entire motoring public. In terms of driver displacement we already have a 55,000 Driver Shortage as it stands. If that trend continues it will be doubled in five years. We have to hire 960,000 employees over the next decade into this industry. We are pushing hard to bring more talent into the industry. That is what our fleets are preparing for, not for displacement. To the degree it is Driver Assist technology, we welcome that. The ways we can measure lower emissions, less congestion those areto the degree it is drr things we would be interested in. That is why we feel trucks need to be part of this legislation. Driverless level five is decades away. It is not even in the scope of our fleets vision. Level two and three are. Driver assist is much more reasonable and why we are not concerned about displacement at this time. Say peters would you Driverless Technology for trucks is decades away, yet for automobiles is just a few years. Mr. Spear i would agree with mr. Hall. He is struggling to find an argument where you would have a driverless truck doing a drop off or pick up. We wouldnt argue with that. We think the driver will still be in the seat. It is really the long haul where you will see a lot of the value come from Driver Assist technology, level two and three. We dont believe that will be a threat. We think drivers will play an intricate role in the pickups and deliveries. In terms of the long haul where you can see efficiencies to lowering emissions, Better Safety by having conductivity between cars and infrastructure, those are all good things that will improve safety. We dont look at it as a threat. Certainly not in the nearterm. Sen. Peters you have a different perspective. I would like to hear more about your perspective after mr. Spears testimony. Hall i was certainly happy to hear his testimony. First of all, let me be clear, our union has always been willing to talk about new technology. If you look at the workplaces we represent, they look very un similar to warehousing and all these other aspects of industries we represent. They were much different than when i began as a teamster. There is much of a difference when we talk about having an 80,000 pound vehicle barreling down the road. We are not opposed to looking at some of the changes we have heard here. But to have a tractortrailer going down the road without a driver, which is what i believe is coming, then i think there are lots of reasons we should be concerned about that, not the least of which is Cyber Security. No matter what technology you put into these trucks, we have seen already in areas around the world where large trucks have been used to essentially attacked the citizens of those particular areas. Attack the citizens of those particular areas. That is one thing we have to do before we advance with the larger trucks. Sen. Peters thank you. Wicker. Ne sen. Sen. Wicker what do you say to that argument mr. Hall raised . Mr. Spear i think it is an important issue. Nobody wants their equipment to be compromised. I think putting together very strong protocols in concert with federal policies. We work regularly with dot and dhs. I would agree with mr. Hall. I dont think you want a tank truck that is driverless in an isis world. That is not something we are advocating. Going back to the discussion about driver displacement, that is not something we believe is in the foreseeable future. Where we can use technology to enhance the safety and productivity of the fleets and the driver, we are all in. Wicker just as we guard against Cyber Threats, we can answer that question with the trucking question. Mr. Spear i think so. Fbi,rk closely with dhs dod on testing. Now with the Auto Industry information sharing advisory committee, they are accepting our companies to be a participant in that room. You will have the auto and Trucking Industry comparing best practices to make sure there is a seamless protocol. Sen. Wicker let me get to another couple topics. Do you agree that we do have an impending truck Driver Shortage . Is that your position mr. Spear and mr. Hall . Mr. Spear it is. Mr. Hall it is. Sen. Wicker it seems to me based on your testimony that going to a level two or three, you are saying that is not going to be an answer to the trucker shortage because we are still going to need basically the same number of Truck Drivers, is that correct . Mr. Spear it is not a clearly defined answer. I like to use the analogy of generational gaps. I can usually fix a lot of things on my phone and laptop, but it is easier to hand to my kids. What we would like to see in terms of the new generation of drivers and technicians is to speak to that generation. This technology does that. To make trucking cool and attractive, tech savvy in this generation, i think is a good fit. We are assuring in a lot of new talent that will cope with this technology and make it work to the benefit of society. We believe in that. It may be more indirect but we think that is an attractive element. So we can enter the workforce. Let me ask you about the 5. 9 gigahertz safety spectrum. If we dont get the exclusive use of that, as your testimony advocates, what would that mean . Mr. Spear i think it will be a huge setback. Bullish on this issue than others. We work closely with the National Safety council on this issue and feel that having conductivity between cars, trucks, and infrastructure bulle than others. Is in my opinion the secret sauce. You dont have cars cutting off trucks. Two thirds of the accidents involving trucks involved driver behavior, speeding, texting. Conductivity plays a key role as that becomes more of a problem. Eliminating congestion these are huge issues that gain from conductivity through that 5. 9. Is in myif we dont have that, you wil be working off of other applications. Bluetooth for instance. We look at trucks trailing trucks. That is done on a bluetooth platform. I am not saying that is a bad platform to work from, but a much more robust and safer platform would be 5. 9. Preserving that for safety is something we would advocate. Sen. Wicker we have information in our committee brief about advances in our competitor countries in this regard. Germany, united kingdom, south korea, even china are working hard at this. Who is ahead of whom in this area, and what can we learn from the experiences of the other countries . And if you can touch on the conductivity issue that mr. Spear touched on. connected vehicles see much further than any driver. Connected vehicles can be prepared to avoid certain circumstances and can engage the driver in ways that are not possible today. We in miles ahead of ather, congestion. It is the secret sauce and one of the keys to unlocking this technology. Sen. Wicker how are our global competitors doing . Mr. Clark this is the space race of our industry. There are a number of technologies coming together. Very interestingly a number of those Technology Leads come out of the United States. The Sensor Technology, the ai and Machine Learning Technology Necessary to take advantage of sophisticated threedimensional light arm maps to run this software, this is where we have the edge. Sen. Wicker we are ahead of germany, united kingdom, south korea and china in the basic regard . Clark what we need to do is press forward with the integration of these into real platforms, putting them into real service so we can collect the data and analytics to bring forward the right type of applications. Sen. Wicker thank you. Sen. Thune i would agree. In terms of the transformative effects of this technology, closest thing in recent memory would be the internet. This will transform the way we do things. I concur with the statement made about truckers anecdotally. Trucking companies in my state cannot find enough drivers. There is a real shortage. Next up is senator young. Sen. Young i really enjoyed this conversation. It is important to my home state of indiana where we have a robust Logistics Industry. A very serious shortage of Truck Drivers to the industry going. Keep the industry going. We might have a part of the solution presented today. In 15 there were over 35,000 lives taken for one reason or another on our nation highways. Over 800 of those fatalities were on highways in my home state of indiana. Ntsas estimate that 94 of crashes can be attributed to human driver error. You can see the potential it brings in terms of lives saved. Another benefit to hoosiers. That is not the story. It can change the lives of individuals who rely on friends and families and others to drive themselves around our communities. You think of the blind, disabled, elderly and others that could have a far greater quality of life when av is allowed to become more independent. Also more integrated into the daytoday lives of our communities. The National Council on disability noted in a previous hearing that we held that Automated Vehicles hold great promise to advance social inclusion by offering people with disabilities independent mobility to get to schools, jobs, and all places that go each day. To get to the point where avs can provide such a societal benefit, compass will have to allow the technology to go each. To get to the point where advane for both vehicles below 10,000 pounds and most likely for vehicles above 10,000 pounds. Im a fried if we bifurcate i am afraid if we bifurcate the regulations we will lose these lifesaving benefits av can bring to all americans. Mr. Spear, regarding the threat of ai becoming net job losses for our economy, you have predicted that truckers will be more like airline pilots. That is a compelling thought. I think it offers promise to our future Truck Drivers or operators to work in a profession where they have more atue or earn higher wages, least as you have styled it. Could you expand on that . The popular perception is that when you get on a commercial airline, the pilot is controlling the plane the entire time. We know that is not the case. The would the role of trucker be in the future . Mr. Spear i think it will be very similar. I know this place off of mr. Halls testimony. What many dont see are the pickups, deliveries, navigating of city states. There is complex maneuvering with this equipment that takes a lot of talent behind the wheel. With all the variables they are dealing with, they are not automated. They are not level five. Unless we are going to remove all human error from all vehicles on the road, you are going to need drivers in the seat and a link 80,000 pound vehicles in the seat handling 80,000 pound vehicles. The taxiways, the landings are all handled by the pilot. It is really the long haul and where the automatic pilot comes on where you see the value of that technology takeover. The pilots can take over if conditions warrant that. Same stands true for drivers and trucks. I have not heard the Airline Industry discuss eliminating pilots and going fully automated. And they could right now. I dont want to put in a plug for my former employer. Working for honeywell for eight years, you all fly. The automation in these planes can take off, fly, and land all on their own. Over the years we have seen an increase in the number of pilots. Our Airline Industry used to involve more pilot intervention along the way. Saw an also indicate we increase in membership in their unions as well. That is notable. Im not entirely sureunions as. That is notable. Could you discuss platooning . What the role of the operator would be in a platooning process. Mr. Spear it would involve a concept where a driver would be and pursuantruck, trucks would follow, possibly without a driver eventually. Up to two or three trailer trucks would follow the lead driver and would be connected. Right now that is being tested through bluetooth technology. That is why we feel 5. 9 be a much better platform to connect vehicles, because then you can include connecting cars. The accident left ms. Hersman put up, if you have cars and trucks talking to one another, you start to mitigate risk. Sen. Young this strikes me as meaningful work when you think about the future of trucking. One where we might attract more people to the labor market. Thank you so much. Sen. Blumenthal thanks mr. Chairman come and thank you and senator peters for your work on thethank you so much. Sen. Legislation that raises soe of the issues we bring here today. We need rules and regulations in this area, rules that will guarantee safety. Disappointed by the guidance issued yesterday which struck me as anemic. In effect, a giveaway to the industry. Lostuld result in lives unless we have enforceable rules and regulations that protect the traveling public, not just the folks who may be behind the wheel, but also passengers in vehicles out on the roads today. Driving continues to be one of the deadliest activities, as you observed ms. Hersman. Thank you for all your good work in this area. Yesterday concern me so greatly because it depends on voluntary selfassessment by the industry rules. Sed to mandatory it was termed by one report, the less burdensome than voluntary one issued under the obama administration. Leavet effect would be to enforcement virtually toothless. I am putting to you the question, to all of the witnesses here today, isnt it necessary to have mandatory rules and regulations enforced by the government, by the department of transportation for some enforcer, to protect the traveling public . I think it is absolutely true. We have seen too many examples. That is one of our concerns, whether or not there will be the oversight necessary to protect the american public. We have seen too many cases, for example in the case of volkswagen, where everyone assumed they were doing the right thing. While it is a different issue with emissions, it is still the same issue thatexample in the cf if a company is allowed to produce vehicles, whether it is automobiles or in particular when it is 80,000 pound rigs, there must be oversight. That is why i think it is ink that theseh commercial vehicles should be included at this time. I am hopeful that we are willing to guarantee we will protect those drivers jobs. We are open to talking about anything that improves safety. I am concerned when i know about the issues that have happened with a driver killed that we just saw a report yesterday about, when uber spent lots of money in pittsburgh in making sure that they measured down to the centimeter every street in that city, yet one of the vehicles went the wrong way down a wrong way street. On a oneway street, maybe there is a way to control them. Weve got to have more thought. Not that there isnt going to be a time i agree with some of my colleagues here i understand we are going to see some changes. Sen. Blumenthal does anyone on this panel think that the nhtsa guidance offers an adequate basis to go forward . Say that it say that it is an end all issue. Sen. Blumenthal is hardly a robust first step, would you agree . I would say it is a first step, and it is better than nothing. It will be a lot more. We are going to have a framework. At the same time the only region the only reason we are having this discussion is because innovation is driving this outcome, not regulation. Sen. Blumenthal the rules are as important as the technology, would you agree . I agree. It is getting the federal government on a Good Foundation to where it has great understanding of where this technology is going to take us. In my testimony we advocate a federal role. Sen. Blumenthal rules have to besen. Blumenthal enforceable and they have to be enforced. That is the direction we are going. That is why we think trucks have to be part of it. Sen. Blumenthal rules have to keep pace with the technology, correct . Mr. Spear i think eventually they will. Sen. Blumenthal the eventually part is what concerns me. In the meantime there will be a lot more death and industry death and injury if those rules failed to keep pace. Mr. Spear i think the same is true if you get the rules wrong. Excluding the commercial industry would be a big detriment to safety. Inclusivity and getting this right from the start we all share the road. Soleng a federal role, s authority, not a patchwork of state laws that deals with all motorists on the road, would be the best approach. Sen. Blumenthal but relying on andntary selfassessments foregoing public oversight and enforcement i think is a mistake that would discredit the goal that we share of making Technology Available and acceptable to as many people as possible, and increasing safety through the use of technology. I think revisiting this guidance is something that has to be done and i hope it will be done. Senator lee. Sen. Lee thanks to all of you who have joined us today as witnesses. As we consider the issue of Autonomous Vehicles this month, it is becoming more and more clear that the future of American Transportation is inextricably intertwined with the advent of Automated Technology. It is important that we think about this issue a lot and we move forward with an eye toward allowing it to be developed. Automation is inevitable. I think it would be neither wise nor appropriate nor necessary for congress to stifle the advancement of this technology. At issue in this debate is not whether congress should restrict slow down the development of this technology, but rather how congress can vest establish a Regulatory Framework, one that encourages and facilitates the development of lifesaving technology. Technology that will make the American People safer and more productive. Fhe research and development o Autonomous Car shall of autonomous commercial Motor Vehicles is critical to this type of innovation and should therefore be included in any legislation that we put forward this month. According to the u. S. Department of labors bureau of labor statistics, trucking transportation occupations account for more workrelated fatalities than perhaps any other profession. That 87 understanding of truck related collisions are caused by human error. Not because the people driving them are bad. To the contrary, they are well trained, but human beings make mistakes. Human error can lead to fatalities. I will start with ms. Hersman. Given that trucks are involved in a disproportionate share of vehiclefatalities. Crashes, wouldnt automated tracking Technology Makes sense and have the potential to have an outsized benefit for american drivers . Ms. Hersman yes. Technology has the potential to be that game changer when it comes to reducing fatalities. There is Technology Available today that can do this. Rear end collisions are a great example. Three times more fatal if you are involved in a rear end collision with a truck than a passenger car. We can all understand the physics of that. Automatic emergency braking, vehicle to Vehicle Technology can help with that. Automated vehicles are an extension of those technologies. Sen. Lee in light of that fact, why would it make sense for us to put them on two different tracks . One where we allow for development in the case of Passenger Vehicles, but not in the area of commercial vehicles . Ms. Hersman we dont think it does make sense. In situations where we put passenger cars on a fasttrack, and we have not addressed commercial vehicles electronic stability control is a good example. After there were some issues involving ford explorers, this committee required electronic stability control be mandated on Passenger Vehicles. We are looking at not involvingd explorers, having vehicles forrcial many more years. That doesnt make sense. We need one level of safety for everyone on the vehicles for many more roadways. House Autonomous Vehicle station is clearly limited to addressing vehicle Design Standards administered by nhtsa. This is what i have always done for cars and cmvs. There is a lot of debate and interest over the ultimate operation of autonomous cmv;s. The current bills simply dont address that. They are assuring everyones safety. That said, would there be any reason to delay the fundamental safety framework for automated cmv design . Col. Hernandez no, not at all. Live example in colorado where it has jumped out front. It would be a lot better for us in the Enforcement Community to be united and ahead of it a fro. S it relates to commercial Motor Vehicles. We have many questions that are the same in and Enforcement Community, such as how to investigate a crash. The advantage for us to understand how these technologies work and work with the industry to learn how to better and reasonably regulate and enforce laws will have a much better advantage than separating the two in my opinion. Sen. Lee sounds like a considerable Public Safety gain. Thank you mr. Chairman. Sen. Thune i would point out for those that think that the nhtsa guidance is not strong enough, that would argue to me why we ought to have all these covered by the legislation. Witnesses,of the please enter yes or no. Do you believe as this committee actively works on legislation to promote the deployment of Autonomous Vehicles, that we should also create policies to help working americans who will lose their jobs because of these emerging technologies . Col. Hernandez yes i believe that should be considered. Ms. Hersman yes. No. Hopefully wet that are going to have a situation where we are not going to lose jobs. As i have listened to various speakers talk about here today. Sen. Markey there is always disruption. ,hen they invented the talkies all of the piano players in silent movie theaters lost their jobs. Make sure you have a plan in place to make sure that kind of protection is there. These are already computers on wheels and will continue to accelerate in that direction as the technology deploys. Obviously there are going to be vast opportunities for Cyber Threats to be launched against these vehicles. They will be computers for all intents and purposes. Do you believe that we should proactively develop robust mandatory regulations so that vehicles are protected against Cyber Attacks as they are moving down the streets of our country . Vehiclesmr. Hall i absolutely. That is one of the biggest concerns i have. As i have said earlier, the Teamsters Union has worked with companies and industries all on innovationtry and to make companies more competitive. In this on innovation and to make companies more competitive. In this case, particularly the case of Cyber Security, it is terrifying to me to think that we have tractortrailers rolling down the road that can be hacked. And to say that they cant in todays world there has to be more information, more studies to ensure we will not have that issue. No one thought we would have the credit card issue we had in the past week where millions of peoples information has been made public. Sen. Markey i agree with you 100 . In fact, we were warned about all these things, that they could happen. Equifax didnt know it could happen, it is not that the Auto Industry does not know these vehicles can be hacked. It is all there. I agree with you mr. Hall. Do you agree with that mr. Spear, that we need robust mandatory protections that are built in as rules of the road Going Forward . Mr. Spear i think that is where we are headed. Stepnk it is a first towards something much more robust. This legislation you are now considering is a remarkable significant step toward formalizing the federal role. I think that is exactly where we are headed. We know this is reality. It is across the board. Sen. Markey i appreciate it. That is why i have introduced act that addresses to nhtsa for Cyber Security protections for all vehicles. Act thati think we should be cg that at the same time we are talking about this new era unfolding. Privacy,n the issue of since they are computers on wheels, there can be a vast amount of information about all americans that will be gathered as they are moving around this country. Do you think we should be ensuring that this information gathered, by Auto Companies and by others about all of our all of thehabits, information that can be gathered as these computers are being used, should be able to be resold as information about the permission of the family . I really dont know that i am qualified to answer that question. I think perhaps that information may be out there with cell phones and others now. That is something that sen. Markey do you have a view if we should be providing privacy protections to people . Mr. Hall i do think that. There is no question we continue to see we are talking about protecting peoples privacy involving a lot of things, including getting involved when you are talking of someones personal lives, you are talking about their finances, a lot of issues that have major problems that we have to protect against. Thank you mr. Chairman and think you to the witnesses. Welcome to the committee colonel hernandez. You have served with Colorado State patrol for over 30 years. Thank you. You have i dont know if you marked the calendar or not. February 19 is president s day, a monday. It is also a great ski weekend. Monday night, you know what happens. Everyone is going back to the front range. How many new tunnels through the eisenhower tunnel do you think would it take for us to provide capacity for the number of vehicles we would see . Col. Hernandez it would take many tunnels. And we are sadly not going to do it. Do you see autonomous Vehicle Technology as a way to manage traffic through those chokepoints through the eisenhower tunnel . I believe it may be the only way to manage that type of traffic. Sen. Gardner i think so too. I want to commend you on your leadership. Trooper cody donahue was killed on i25 by a vehicle that didnt move over when he was assisting another crash on the side of the road. Vehicle to Vehicle Technology would be used to assist in this type of a situation, perhaps to avoid that type of accident. Could it be used that way . Col. Hernandez absolutely. The technology is there to be able to do that. Very hard on the agency and hard on me. Hard on the family. It could have been avoided. I think through this technology it absolutely could have been avoided because there was a prior crash. So often these are secondary crashes. That takes the lives of many people. I think that is one of the huge advantages to this type of technology, both in cars and commercial vehicles. Sen. Gardner one of the challenges we have is not whether or if we get there, but how we do it in a way that manages safety. One out of every 20 jobs in colorado is a Truck Driving job. I grew up in a small town. We have a lot of Truck Drivers there. One of them came up to me one day and said, did you see the truck delivery from Colorado Springs you talked about in your opening comments . One of them came up to me one i says, wasnt it great . He said yeah, what is going to happen to me . He is a truck driver. We as policymakers have to answer that question of what will happen to them. The answer wont be, there will be fewer jobs and fewer opportunities. With innovations we achieve in this country, we will have progress, innovation, and more jobs we have had before. We have to say that in a way that is helping people see and understand that and know they are going to be ok. Until we can answer that question, there is going to be an uncertainty. It will be an unsettling part of peoples lives. We need help in answering that question. We are going to create more jobs as a result. The secondary impacts will be phenomenal. We need to articulate to an uncertain american populace Going Forward. I am excited about the future we have. We had a hearing with the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in denver. The 11. 5 million miles of highresolution data fleets have taken. How do we use that data to move forward on a system of and safetyvehicles need to make this work . Need to make this work . I used fcc as a primary example. It is not dot and nhtsa. It is cyber, it is also epa on emissions. There are a whole host of benefactor agencies at the that need to be more that need to be more squarely at the table on this, labs included. We work a lot with dod, not just on cyber but with logistics and testing. There is a lot that can be done on the military bases to advance this and states where we have proven grounds. We dont discriminate between either one of them. We welcome everyone to the table. The more inclusivity you have, the more robust this platform will be an easier to understand from a legislative and regulatory point of view. Inclusivity in the labs need to be squarely at the table and drive the outcome. If the legislation can speak to that, that would be a good thing. Sen. Gardner thank you for your time and testimony today. Chair and thank you to the panelists. A very engaging an important discussion today. Mr. Spear, let me start with you and m sure i understandake what i am hearing today. Make sure i understand what im hearing today. You would be comfortable if we passed federal legislation that only went to level two authority. It limits any type of future technology specifically to Driver Assisted technology level, and we dont open the door to level five, Driverless Technology for commercial trucks. Is that correct . Mr. Spear let me stipulate i am not suggesting the committee earmark at level two or three. That is the reality we see for the foreseeable future, Driver Assist, not level five driverless. If that reality is acceptable, that to us is not a threat, that driver displacement. It is a catalyst to beneficial things. Level two and three are where we see the technology for the foreseeable future. If the legislation speaks to that, that is a decision you all make. We just dont believe displacement or level five no steering will and no pedals is in the foreseeable future. If we were to limit it to level two and three, because you dont see that in the foreseeable future as driverless , and we want to make sure we are addressing that worker displacement, but also the Cyber Security issues well have concerns about, as well as addressing safety on the roads, you would be comfortable with that legislation . Mr. Spear absolutely. Sen. Cortez masto would you become to roll with that legislation if we limited it to just Driver Assisted technology and understanding the evolution of that technology for commercial trucks . I certainly would be. I would be happy to see that type of limitation. By the same token i also think we have to address the many safety concerns before we make any of these changes. Sen. Cortez masto when you talk about the many safety i certain. Concerns, that is including the worker safety concerns as well as the discussion we have had today, correct . Mr. Hall correct. Sen. Cortez masto this is an important discussion. I think for all of us, the challenge will be how we balance the emergence of this new technology that mr. Spear said is theres a demand for it. It is going to happen whether we are part of this discussion or not. And how we balance that with Worker Protections and worker placement, because the last thing i cant speak for all of my colleagues but i would imagine is that worker displacement. It would harm our economy. It would harm our workers. It would harm our jobs. Thats not what were trying to do here. There has to be a balance. Thats what im hoping everyone will come to the table and help us at a federal level find that balance to Work Together to have not only the ability to embrace this new technology but address the worker issue and worker displacement to make sure that does not happen. So, do you think there is an ability to Work Together to do that . Absolutely. I think theres an ability to do that. Thank you. The reason why i am really excited and interested in this space is because there are a lot there is a lot of work that is happening in the vatican right now as you all know, with this new technology, both for a time of vehicles and for Driver Assistant trucks. I think it is the future, and we need to embrace it but we need , to put those guardrails in place that weve all talked about today. Just in nevada, the Transportation Commission of Washoe County is currently testing and taking data on an autonomous bus that will move many of my con stitch went many of my constituents back and forth in the region. Who has followed this issue knows how Autonomous Vehicles and transportation relies on technology and conductivity. Thats why i am excited to be able to be introducing legislation to promote smart cities and communities. My bill will ensure that the federal government provides the seed money. To provide these Transportation Systems in cities and Rural Communities throughout the country. My colleague is lead sponsor on this. Im very excited to work with him. That is our future, the Internet Connectivity of things and i want to make sure were in that space of innovation. I think we can address the Security Issues miss herdsman the you have talked about, the safe the the safety of our roads. Mr. Hernandez as well, also make sure that we are training that workforce for the future. That were involving them in this discussion when were talking about the new technology. Thank you for the conversations today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, senator. Senator inhofe . Sen. Inhofe thank you, mr. Chairman. The reason youre experiencing some redundance in questions, is we have 50 of the Committee Also on the environment and public works committee. So we find ourselves having to go back and forth and its very difficult. The question that was asked mr. Clark, let me first of all say how much we enjoy you, the citizens in my city of tulsa, have been in the operation many times. It is a great benefit to us and , i appreciate your presence and all the contributions youve made to our local communities very much. When you were asked by senator wicker some things i think are kind of interesting. That is where are we it was a difficult question to answer. He only asked you, and not the rest of you but for the rest of you, there is an assumption by the American People that were always number one, were always the first there. I served as Ranking Member of the Senate Armed Services committee. We know there are many countries out there that are developing Missile Technology and other things. Were not always number one. But in this, this is something that is new. I would like to know, if it is appropriate to ask each one of you kind of where are we right , now in terms of other countries. Weve heard germany, japan, china, other countries that are advancing. Where are we in the mix right now . Youve already answered, mr. Clark, when it comes to other countries in fatalities, we are trailing. Sen. Inhofe no, im talking about this technology thats the subject of this meeting today. So the other countries have made more progress. Some of that is because they have embraced technology. Things like automatic emergency braking, not required here on trucks, looking at that in europe. So they have that in europe. When we look at automated enforcement, other countries are embracing some of these technologies at a more rapid clip than the United States. Sen. Inhofe anybody else, any thoughts on that . That explains the european end but, we get asked these questions, what are other countries doing . We do benchmarks, senator with other countries in europe. We think the proving grounds and the development at the local and state level in the United States is a bit more advanced. I think thats in large part to the environment. Were seeing multiple states and communities stepping up to really attract innovators to their states and cities. I think smart cities were mentioned. We are creating those environments where technology can be tested in a safe way. Thats a good thing. I think that those investments are going to accelerate with the adoption of the technology. When senator markey asked a question, it was kind of resumed that this mass exodus of jobs in america and so its a difficult question for you to answer yes or no to. I guess id hike to have a i would like to have a comment from each one of you, because i have heard from this committee that there are some , arguments that were actually going to be employing more people. Were getting into other technology. But how do you see us . When this washes out, are we going to have the massive jobs declines that were kind of assumed in the question that was asked of you before . Would you comment on that . I think i struggled just with that straightforward question, just because i start thinking about the number of lives in that we have lost on our roadways and highways and how to reduce that. And then just that im not the subject Matter Expert on this key point, but primarily driven by our goal to get to zero and what that will look like. I will tell you from a lawenforcement perspective ive , been involved for 30 years, like the senator said. And every time we get more technology, it seems to take more people than less. To manage those technology systems. Sen. Inhofe any other comments on that . The type of job descriptions that we will see over the next 20 years for drivers and technicians is going to make these employees more marketable. Theyre going to be better skilled and trained. Employers are investing a lot more in their capabilities, to make sure that this equipment is up and running and done in a safe way. We are already facing a shortage. The reason i answer no to that is that we simply do not believe that it is a displacement issue. Sen. Inhofe well, from your perspective, the last thing i wanted to ask is, do you believe that heavy trucks should be included in the drafting of the legislation . Absolutely, senator. Sen. Inhofe does anyone not beliefve that . I dont believe they should be part of this current legislation because and i dont want to over simplify this but all the discussion has , been about Passenger Vehicles. And i think we have to recognize that there is a vast difference between a 4,000 pound car and an 80,000 pound vehicle. Sen. Inhofe youve made that point. I appreciate that very much. Did the other three of you mostly agree with mr. Spear . Alright, thank you mr. Chairman. Thank you senator inhofe. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And thanks to you and senator peters for all your work on this issue. And thank you to the panelists for being here today. There is no doubt that Automated Vehicles have tremendous potential to save lives. The reduction of nearly 4,000 deaths caused by large truck accidents each year and the over 30,000 annual traffic fa fatalities on our nations highways. How can we guard against potential harms of this technology from and out of state actors who are looking to harm us . I do not want to trade one set of harms for another. I will tell you, i spent some of my homework period visiting summer camps in new hampshire. I was visiting one a couple of weeks ago. It was for a group of adolescents. They wanted to know what a senator does. I talked a little bit about the work of this committee and said that this committee had jurisdiction over Automated Vehicles from the legislation around it. And i described what the future technology looks like. And within seconds there were kids 13, 14 years old raising their hands going do you know how easy it would be to hack those . Since theyre the Digital Natives among us, i tend to listen to young people when they talk to us about technology. So i am very concerned that were all assuming that there are going to be levels of Cyber Security built into this technology, when to senator markeys point, weve seen in all various Industry Sectors that sometimes we think about Cyber Security after the harm is done. Given the lives at stake and the potential of out of state actors who want to use vehicles now for a different purpose, i am very concerned that we get the Cyber Security right at the front end and not wait for something bad to happen. We also know there are Critical Thinking components to operating a vehicle that im not sure translate to automated machinery just yet, which is why i think were seeing the Different Levels of automation described in this legislation. But, to all of you if trucks are , added to this bill, what more bill to done the on the rd against the risks of the potential Cyber Security risks of automation . Im not a Cyber Security expert. But i would say it makes a lot more sense to me to make sure that its incorporated so that Autonomous Vehicles are secure whether it is a car or a commercial vehicle. Sen. Hassan on thank you. Mr. Clark . It is a great question and great topic area and this whole issue around Cyber Security is an immediate issue and it is an issue now in our industry. Both navistar as well as the competitors in the industry currently have some number of connected vehicles, probably in the neighborhood of 40 of the vehicles on the road today are connected telematically. We do different things. We offer services. We provide updates to some of the control software. This is an immediate need for us today. I would say that the recognition of these needs has energized our industry to Work Together like few things that i have seen. We are committed to get it right and we will not go to market nor test without the proper safeguards. We welcome the oversight and we in thatulatory bodies space. I would say that it is a rapidly changing area, we do not believe thatight and is to mandate technology, but certainly we stand ready and willing to participate in the regulatory process to provide the right safeguards. Is. Hassan because my time running out, i would like for the rest of the group to address it, that it would make sense to have a set of standards that everybody has to meet in place . Senator, i think that is what we are trying to work toward, even without legislation. The commercial sector as well as the automated sector which is up and running for a couple of years, really developing protocols that are seen across all vehicles. I think it speaks to why this legislation is important. So that you get that seem less protocol. Seamless i would say that there were earlier questions about the voluntary nature of whats going on now. This is exactly why this body needs to get involved. If we dont like whats happening out there, its because people dont i feel like they have the authority or direction. And they think it is really important for you all to at least set some of those high bars. Set the floor to where you want folks to go so that they can figure out how to do it. We do not have anything now, so it is a bit of the wild west out there and there needs to be a sheriff. And i think the opportunity to do that is having these conversations and this legislation, not putting it off. Sen. Hassan thank you. Mr. Hall . I think there needs to be regulation and strong regulation. Because while there are certainly Reputable Companies including people represented here in this hearing today, there are bad actors out there. And we have repeatedly seen that where with the volkswagen scandal, if that happens with the Cyber Security, we have got a huge problem. And i guess the thing that i see is perhaps as they say in west virginia, we have to make sure were not getting the cart before the horse. We need to insure the stability and safety of these vehicles before we start rolling them out and furthering legislation to put them on the road. Sen. Hassan on thank you, and thank you for your indulgence. Ill put some questions into the record about workforce training. Thanks. Thank you. Senator caputo. Sen. Capito thank you for the hearing. Thank you mr. Chairman. Havent been in the entire time, but you have a great panel because you have two west virginians on the panel. [laughter] i recently returned from a trip to israel. And when the question was asked what countries are really at the cutting edge, they talked a lot in israel about selfdriving and Automated Vehicles. And i think they have a very small, very flat country as well. But i think theyre really working on the technologies there. So i wanted to bring that up. I have a question. And it may be that im kind of f on how these things work. So mr. Clark, this is one of directed at you. We live in a state that has spotty connectivity, even on our main arteries. Through even our wireless on our interstates. It cuts in and out. And i have some concerns that if we move forward on this or as the technology moves forward, how much connectivity in all the different areas plays into being able to run this efficiently and safely . Could you speak to that please . Mr. Clark thank you mr. Senator, for the quest thank you senator, for the question. The basic Autonomous System on a vehicle is intended to in fact drive in a very autonomous way. It does not have to be a connected vehicle to be an Autonomous Vehicle. It operates with a very detailed 3d map. Its looking and comparing using cameras and detectors and making constant comparisons to whats in its memory, looking for things that arent there and making decisions, are those objects moving or fixed and what decisions should be taken. Not the least of which is i think i dont understand. Im just going to pull over. So even in a nonconnected environment, the vehicles can operate autonomously. Their safety advocacy is significantly enhanced when they do operate in a connected fashion, either connected to other vehicles or connected to portions of the infrastructure or in many cases for our testing purposes connected back to us. So that we can collect that data that can be used by regulators and analyzed for future purposes. Sen. Capito well, you mentioned in your previous question that 40 of your trucks were connected telematics lead telematically, what do you i would like you to think about that the truck itself has like every couple seconds, its sending us a message on the condition of the mechanical conditions of the vehicle. Sen. Capito through the wireless. Okay, thank you. Mr. Hall, on the concerns about the workforce impacts, obviously, west virginia, we have a lot of Truck Drivers. Its a great occupation. I notice as were looking at the Different Levels, i dont know, level one to level four, theres somebody in the car thats being , or in the truck. But i started thinking, so why is mr. Hall worried about, if youre going to have a teamster in the truck anyway. Do you envision that it is a lower paying, lower type drive that doesnt have maybe the same beginning salaries that somebody who is a member of the teamsters might have . It that your concern . Because it looks as though at least from the very beginning and except in very urban situations, theres somebody in the vehicle. Well, thats obviously one of my concerns. I mean, first, yes. We dont want to see just, you know, its been mentioned here today that some comparison to we still have pilots in airplanes even though theyre very much automated. So certainly, its a concern of ours because people make a good living doing that. But also, our concern is the safety of all of the drivers as well as the general public in saying that it shouldnt be we dont believe that you should just include 80,000pound trucks without further study. I dont think you can say because we have been talking about automobiles that then it just makes sense. Its no more than, you know, i bought my grandson a bb gun, but i dont think that means i should give him a highpowered rifle because hes learned to shoot a bb gun. We need to make sure that were taking the time to look at some of the aspects that are so much different about trucks than they are automobiles. But you are right. One of my concerns is that there be regulation so that we dont have those bad actors, and most of the companies that we deal with are up front and do the right thing. We dont want bad actors who are putting people on the road at the low end, considering the lowest cost of the risk of safety for the general public. At the risk of safety for the general public. Sen. Capito you know, its hard to imagine living in the terrain that we live in, that an Autonomous Vehicle, there are certain places im not getting in an Autonomous Vehicle to get up to my house. I can tell you that, it is a pretty windy, windy road. There are lots of areas where this is not going to work, but ms. Hersman, lets take i81. I dont know what the percentage of truck traffic is on that piece of highway, but its enormous. How do you see this technology evolving in terms of safety on a very crowded highway like that, that is pretty highspeed . I think that is a great example because thats exactly , the kind of corridor where i think this technology could work the best. Very predictable. Repeatable. Youve got good coverage. You have mapped it out. Its not unknown. And those are the kinds of spaces where i think vehicles can talk to each other. Its a very controlled environment. Youve got widely spaced lanes. Youve got shoulders where people can pull over. That environment, i think, is probably one of the spaces where were talking about using Technology Like this first. It could control speeds. Im sure if you drive on 81, there are some speed racers on that road, in addition to it being a truck alley, theres a lot of people moving really quickly. We can look at a lot of safety issues that can be addressed through this technology. Traffic flow, management, but safety is the first and most important thing. Thank you. Sen. Capito thank you, mr. Chair. Mr. Chairman senator duckworth. sen. Duckworth thank you, mr. Chairman. I would like to quickly recognize our two illinois natives, good panel. Ms. Hersman and mr. Clarke, welcome to the panel. Briefly touching on what mr. Hall just said, i think the name captain Sully Sullenberger is a great example of the importance of a human being Decision Maker at the controls of any type of a large vehicle. With the advent of level three, four, and five technologies, i think we face a truly Game Changing opportunity and associated challenges as well. You know, in my own lifetime, theres been few technologies with more potential to improve the mobility and independence for individuals with disabilities than Autonomous Vehicles. It would be freeing for those with visual impairments, for those that are unable to drive, to be able to actually leave their homes and gain mobility. Clearly, the potential to greatly reduce the 30,000 annual roadway fatalities is also truly exciting. . I do know that we should expet growing pains and unintended consequences. What i would like to focus my discussion on is on how Autonomous Vehicles would challenge our existing transportation infrastructure and what that means for our local municipalities and states. And also the future of labor. So mr. Clarke, what existing and future infrastructure considerations should manufacturers take into account when designing vehicles at level three and above . Thats a great question, senator. And it certainly reflects your understanding that commercial vehicles actually operate in a system or an environment that includes the infrastructure. Things such as not just the highways but entrance and exits. You know, toll plazas. Even something as simple as where can the vehicle pull over during that application. Whats exciting about this opportunity is that we can concurrently discover as were validating the technologies those Cost Effective or the most , Cost Effective methods to get , what will ultimately be some infrastructure needs. As the point has been made, Autonomous Vehicles, even the most sophisticated, if everything worked perfect, are probably just not suited to some roads in america or some circumstances. But, you know, they are suited to a number of other places as well. Things like, we have already talked about vehicle to vehicle communications, but we could talk about vehicle to infrastructure communication where the road itself, okay, and its condition can talk to the vehicle for incidents that maybe are miles and miles in advance. And last but not least, look. These technologies, you would only think of deploying these technologies in the immediate term in a place where the vehicle always has available to it the ability to pull itself over and stop. Which kind of dictates its riding in the righthand lane. So now we have to reassess the capacity of that particular thoroughfare because all the trucks will be in the righthand lane. There will be traffic and speed control, but it always needs to ability to pull itself off. Or in the place of platooning, which we talked about previously, decel lanes on freeways or limited access highways may need to be extended so entire vehicles could pull over and still leave room for Passenger Vehicles to navigate their way off the highway as well. And then last but not least, another very simple example would be the vehicle needs to be driven once it gets off the highway. And perhaps at that point in time, there will be the need for marshaling areas or cross docking facilities or the ability to pull the vehicle over very close to an entrance or exit to make the right inspections, to create the right certifications, so that we know that the vehicle is capable of performing the next challenge, so to speak, in its task. So the opportunity to bring this technology in a very controlled manner for the purpose of developing data that will fuel regulations and Infrastructure Research is the exact opportunity we look forward to. I think i speak for our entire industry. Sen. Hassan sen. Duckworth thank you. I think its important to talk about the point beyond getting off of the interstate, off the major roadways as well, because in many of our municipalities, the roads through cities and towns into the industrial areas, into the loading docks are 1960s and 1970s era, very narrow. Theres nothing to replace a human being to negotiate through those. And miss hersman, i think everyone agrees that the safety potential of Av Technology is enormous. From a safety perspective, could you speak to the infrastructure challenge for states, municipalities, in terms of accommodating future av technologies . On this issue, it is really important for state and municipalities oversight agencies, to have a seat at the table. When we look at whats happening, its happening in controlled environments. They need to be notified of testing going on in their states so they know how to respond, but there may also be changes in design that we need to do Going Forward. We talked about vtoi. Vehicle to infrastructure. We have a lot of great crossings in illinois. Thats a great opportunity to kind of connect industries. So how do we keep from having grade crossing fatalities. Likewise, we have seen pedestrian and bicycle fatalities going up. How do we insure were thinking about all road users wherer were talking about trucks and cars today, but theres a lot of fatalities that occur on our roadways. I think states and municipalities have to be at the table whether were talking about lane markings and how we have systems that interact with each other, or about the rules of the road that we set. No ones really talked about consumer education. One of the Biggest Challenges that we have is how do people understand how these vehicles are behaving . Whether its a large truck or whether its a car, really important to bring people in the loop, and i think the state and local leaders have a role in that. Sen. Duckworth thank you. I yield back, mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman thank you. senator cantwell. Sen. Cantwell thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks for this hearing. I wanted to ask mr. Clarke, obviously, the super truck program, which is both about moving forward more from an efficiency perspective. I know pat car in our state was awarded one of the doe for developing more fuel efficient engines. How do you see these two things working together in the challenges we face on competitiveness of moving u. S products and keeping costs down . How is increasing fuel efficiency and automation going handinhand . Yeah, senator, thank you so much. Boy, i couldnt have asked for a better setup. You know, all of the major truck manufacturers in america participated in the doe super truck program, and as a program itself, the super truck program, how it was managed, it was managed in an outstanding way that created the very technologies that were putting on our vehicles today. To improve not only their efficiency and operation and how clean they are and the environment, but it really gave us a test bed to test many of these connected technologies and many of the, well, for instance, many of these technologies that are in fact the basis of Autonomous Vehicles Going Forward. For instance, in our super truck program, we had such a successful experience with Collision Mitigation and avoidance that in the middle of the program, we decided to put it on our brandnew tractor called the lt, and we made it standard. So Collision Mitigation is standard. You can delete the option if you so choose. But surprising to us, the tick grade on that has been 35 . And in fact, those vehicles who are equipped with Collision Mitigation and mitigation style braking already prove, the data would suggest, 24 reduction in those type of accidents, the very accidents it was intended to avoid. It did give us confidence to move forward with that technology in a test platform where we could do it outside of the commercial venue, and the supertrucks were all tested on highways. So we were able to test it in multiple customer environments all across the United States, and again, it gave us this rapid validation and feedback that let us do something really good, not just commercially for us, but we think for the drivers as well. Well, its kind of hand in glove, right . Its not just, you know, are you going to have automated trucks. Its what are the efficiencies youre going to drive in to trucks or reducing costs. When we see this from the aerospace industry, huge wins in the marketplace because the customer wants a more fuel efficient plane. I would assume driving down the cost in these fuel areas and efficiency areas also give you a more competitive advantage when youre out there marketing cost and moving product. Yes, senator. Ours is a highly regulated business environment. You know, that is aimed at safety, efficiency and Clean Products and the environment. There are no Better Safety regulators in the world than nhtsa and federal motor carrier Safety Administration. We have historically worked together to not only bring products to the market that improve safety, reduce operating costs, but create a cleaner environment. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator cantwell. Senator peters. Sen. Peters thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for letting me have another round here. I appreciate your indulgence, and again, thank you to our witnesses here today. Ms. Hersman, the advocates for highway and auto safety have expressed concerns to my office about including trucks in this legislation. And they have recommended several ways to congress, the d. O. T. , nhtsa, fm, csa can insure safety of highly automated trucks. They have a little different perspective or at least are raising a number of i think are important issue ss. Issues. The advocates for highway and auto safety believe automated trucks that do not comply with federal Motor Vehicle standards should not be exempt to exemptions, would you agree with that . Are you talking about for testing environments . I think that if we have very specific testing environments, we want to think about how were what were testing. What equipment were testing. But i do think as theyre operating out on the road, with the public, they need to be subjected to the same standards as other vehicles out there. So youre in agreement with that stand . Yeah, but i would say, you know, certainly when we look at test environments, we talked about a situation where we had a unique test, and they created specific parameters around it, so i would say we have to sometimes put technologies and systems out there if were testing them to understand what its like in the real world. Its important not to say we wouldnt want to allow anything, but i think we have to have major controls around those things. Sen. Peters fair enough. Have you considered what would be an appropriate number of exemptions for highly automated trucks Going Forward . I think its possible, i know the committee has a number in their bill. You could think about a pro rata share based on the number of vehicles that are out there, Passenger Vehicles versus commercial vehicles. Certainly it is in the purview of the committee to put that out there but what were talking , about as far as fully Automated Vehicles, were just not seeing those numbers now. Sen. Peters under current law, current law allows 2500. Would 2,500 be sufficient for trucks, and my understanding is that there are about 300,000 produced in the country versus 17 million automobiles. Is 2500 sufficient . Im not sure that 2,500 is the right number. I might defer to some of my colleagues who have more real experience with respect to putting vehicles out on the roads. But i think its really important for this committee to engage in this issue and set some guidelines and some escalation for how that could occur in a thoughtful way, because right now, there are none. Sen. Peters . Right. Realize 2,500 is current, but if we change that, we obviously need some thoughtful consideration of that and get some data and evidence to determine that. I appreciate that answer. The advocates for highway and auto safety also believe automated trucks must have an operator with a valid commercial drivers license while in the vehicle at all times and are advocating for the secretary to issue a standard for driver engagement. Does the National Safety council have recommendations for insuring that an operator is behind the wheel. I would say youre asking me about other folks recommendations, i can absolutely share with you what some of our recommendations are. Sen. Peters is that one of your recommendations . We do feelfor us, depending on the level of automation, that there are absolutely needs to be a qualified driver behind the wheel. One of the things we havent talked about that this issue goes to, that the advocates are raising, is i know we talked about displacement and Training Programs, but i think what we really need to talk about are Training Programs Going Forward, making sure that there are opportunities for people to be qualified on advanced technologies. I held a commercial drivers license. There are endorsements for those licenses, whether its air brakes, school bus, passenger endorsements. I think its important for us to think through technology as we advance. How do we train and qualify people for advanced technology. Because these systems are going to be complex, and its going to require a different set of skills. Sen. Peters well, thats actually really leading into my next question, because the advocates raised concerns about Driver Training, as you just expressed. They believe drivers operating a highly automated truck must have an endorsement on their cdl to make sure theyre trained to monitor and drive the vehicle. And if need be, take over the control of that highly automated truck. They believe this training should include a minimum number of hours behind the wheel. It sounds like the direction youre going to, its something we need to think through. I absolutely think as long as human beings are engaged, we have to make sure that we do it safely. I know everyone is talking about level two, three, four, five. But i would posit that one of the most dangerous environments are when the human being and the vehicle are sharing control, and how we handle those handoffs and how we structure the notifications, the warnings, and the training are very important. This is where we have seen in the Aviation Industry mode confusion, overreliance on automation. These are really important conversations for us to have, even about level two and three before we get to four and five. Its going to be a very messy environment, and we need to talk about those things. Sen. Peters yes, absolutely. I agree. Point, they are also suggesting that Motor Carriers using highly automated trucks apply for additional operating authority. Has the National Safety Council Consider that issue . I think its important that they apply for operating authority as theyre required to do so today. I think its really important for the federal Motor Carriers Safety Administration to identify what that means, and they need to be part of the conversation with respect to vehicle standards, that nits is responsible for but its a new world out there. , everybody has to come along and identify what that means. All right. I appreciate those answers. Its clear we need to do a whole lot more thinking about that. I appreciate your response. Thank you. Mr. Chairman thank you, senator peters. And again, thank you for our panel today. Sen. Kaine its been a great conversation and discussion. I think its shed a lot of light on important issues as were we try to shape our bill, and we have been working, as i said, senator peters and i and senator nelson and others on the committee in working some time to try to craft a bill that really does enable the technology to move forward and with maximum emphasis on safety. And so were trying to figure out how to thread that needle. I would argue that it makes sense not to have two Safety Standards out there, one for trucks and one for automobiles. And that as we think about these things, we want to have, make sure that were providing the safest environment for all motorists on the highways, but thats a point that we continue to talk about in terms of the final bill that we end up filing. So we have a draft out there. I know many of you have looked at it, and we welcome your thoughts and input, and certainly the testimony this morning and the response to your questions has been very helpful in that regard. And i would simply say for , members of the committee who have questions for the record, to submit those and if we could have all of you respond within a twoweek time period, it would be very appreciated. And we will make all of that part of the hearing record. So thank you again for being here. With that, this hearing is adjourned. Announcer sunday, on book tv, live coverage of the brooke crain book festil