Transcripts For CSPAN Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20240622

Southern lawmakers in particular in a tough spot on the record on if they supported the flag by graves. The story quoting republican representative jody hice of georges saying this morning he plans to support the amendment. The amendment that is coming to the floor simply codifies existing law that has been in place for five years that allows the states to recognize historical significance on dates of their choosing while at the same time recognizing sensitivities that many have with the flag. While some republicans spoke about the Confederate Flag issue it was mostly the house to make rest that spoke on the floor. In a news briefing about it. Here is that briefing. Nancy pelosi good afternoon. Today we had action on the floor. I presented a privilege resolution that would have captured the action put forth two weeks ago. It was referred to the committee on House Administration never to be heard from again. That is intolerable. I put forth mr. Thompsons similar resolution and that was referred to the committee of House Administration. It has to be doubt with expeditiously, we hope. But we shall see. I had an inquiry to ask what is the status of the resolution of two weeks ago, they were not prepared. The chair said he could not tell us anything about that. Here we are on the 147th anniversary of the 14th amendment, which guarantees equal protection under the law here we are on the day when the state of South Carolina by an act of legislature and the signature of the governor will be taking down the flag. The house of representatives republicans in the house voting down in the discussion of the battle flag and the capital of the United States. I couldnt be prouder of our members. This is a matter of value, of principle, of who we are as americans. I want to acknowledge them and in doing so i want to yield to our distinguished assistant leader. And thank him for the inspiration he has been to our nation and the last few weeks. For this and the sympathies for the loss he has suffered in his state and his district and thank him for his leadership. Mr. Clyburn. Thank you madam leader. Today is an interesting day. We are celebrating the days after happened to of been the state that ratified the 14th amend met on this day bringing the number of states necessary to be a part of our constitution on this day. The day the governor signed a piece of legislation taking that flag across the grounds of the state house. They remove it at 10 00 in the morning. The interesting thing about this is this is a picture of the statehouse in columbia, South Carolina, and the confederate battle flag. The flag of the army of northern virginia. That is what that is. There are three versions of the Confederate Flag. This was never one of them. The proponents of this flag tried forever to have it adopted and given official status, the daughters of the confederacy rejected it. When robert e lee surrendered at appomattox, he urged all of his followers to furl the flag. In one statement he said put it in your addicts. Antics. He didnt want to be buried in his confederate uniform. He said this was a symbol and the uniform is a dress of treason. That is the history of this flag. Why it is that we are having such a hard time today on the day that South Carolina becomes the last state to take it off of the rounds, we have decided we are going to make it mandatory that our National Parks this play on their grounds. Now, after the funeral, there was a long possession in procession to where he was to be laid to rest. On that route, through the towns , people came to the curbs stood on the side of the road, waving the United States flag. One flag. Black, white, young, old. All waving, and pledge of allegiance to that one flag. Our leader talks about our motto. Out of many, one. One flag. One nation. Indivisible. With liberty and justice for all. One flag. One nation. With that, i would like to yield to my longtime friend. We have known each other for 4550 years. One of the things we joke about is South Carolina was the first to see mississippi South Carolina was the first to secede, mississippi was not far behind. What you have seen over the last two weeks is an effort by members of the Democratic Caucus to put closure to an open wound that has been here for a long time. I live in mississippi. I have lived my entire life. Ive had to endure a lot of atrocities that africanamericans have had to enter at the hands of officials who waive this flag. When the civil war started South Carolina and mississippi had more africanamericans living in its state than they had any other race. But they were all slaves. This war was fought over slavery. The symbol was a confederate battle flag. People still see this flag is a symbol that the war is not over that it is heritage and not taped. You lost the war. It is time for you to join the rest of the country and be the United States of america. We should have a place for those things to be. Over our capitals, and be representatives of the states that we live in is an insult because of what they stand for. Racism, bigotry, all those things in a democracy have no place. Our effort is to have the United States house of representatives provide the leadership necessary to begin the complete healing by removing those symbols of hatredand bigotry that we can no longer afford to live with as a country. That is where my resolution was offered. And all these other maneuvers to avoid making tough decisions can only delay the process. We have to get beyond this. We have to get Republican Leadership in this institution to let us take a vote, let us not make referrals. There is enough history, enough on the record as to what the symbols stand for that there is no reason to conduct any hearings to do that. I would like to introduce congressman jeffers of new york who was instrumental in helping us bring this issue to the forefront. Also instrumental in getting our interior appropriations canceled. [laughter] thank you leader pelosi and the distinguished gentleman from mississippi. Earlier this week, i introduced collectively three amendments whose purpose was to prohibit the use of federal funds connected with the purchase sale, or display of the confederate battle flag on national grounds. House republicans were prepared to do the right thing and help to banish the symbol of racial hatred and depression. Then the ghosts of the confederacy were invaded the Republican Congress. As a result, less than 24 hours in a dramatic turnaround, in the dead of night House Republicans reversed course. And set forth to legislatively legitimize the display and the fail of the Confederate Flag. They have made the decision to refer mr. Thompsons resolution to a committee for a hearing. I am perplexed. The members of the Republican Congress who support the battle flag argue that this is about heritage and tradition. What exactly is the tradition the confederate battle flag is meant to represent . Is it slavery . Race . Kidnap . Genocide treason, or all of the above . The confederate battle flag is a symbol of racial hatred and depression. It stood for the defense of the institution of slavery. It is time to banish it to the dustbin of history which is where it belongs. It is my honor and privilege to yield to the distinguished gentleman, from the great state of california i may put in a motion to make him an honorary member of the Congressional Black Caucus. [laughter] thank you very much. Two days ago i was proud to introduce along with my colleague one of the amendments at issue here. Amendments that would ban the sale of confederate battle flags and in our National Parks and prevent the display of these symbols on National Cemetery gravesites. I was cleaned i was pleased when it passed by voice vote. Hopefully throughout the south in the same way that we have seen Corporate America stuff up on this issue and realize we have to stop providing nostalgic cover for the symbols of racism and segregation and hatred and slavery, i thought we were there. In the last 24 hours, to see the reversal within the Republican Caucuses shocking and disappointing. Two seed in the context of the procedural maneuvers and obstructionist tactics they have taken to prevent the resolution from having a vote in this house is also shocking and disappointing. I have no doubt the u. S. Congress will do the right thing read we will step up and vote to get rid of the symbols of hatred and segregation and slavery as we should have long ago. Unfortunately we are unable to speak with one voice on this issue today because of a faction within the Republican Caucus that is out of step with the times we live then, would swear the country wants us to go on this issue, and the values our country holds dear. I hope that we will get through this and have that vote and do the right thing. Unfortunately we are unable to do that today. With that it is my honor to yield to my friend from louisiana or my friend from minnesota. Who without whose work on the floor late last night to catch what looks like an innocuous technical amendment, we may not be here with the opportunity to have a recorded vote on this. [applause] well, the interior bill is a polluters dream profiteering from pollution for those who want to not follow the law. It had one bright spot and it. Funding for our native american brothers and sisters. Because of the amendments of mr. Jefferson mr. Hoffman, it had two more bright spots added to a terrible bill. I sat on the floor when these gentlemen introduce their amendments. I was proud of the fact that there was no objection raised from the other side of the aisle. I thought, america at its best. We are doing better. And then last night around 8 00 when we were ready to wrap up the bill, there was a flurry of activity. Then a little bit of disruption as the chairman of the committee started talking about wildfires in striking the last word. People coming to the floor from the leadership offices of speaker boehner. I noticed the parliamentarian was called off in the speakers lobby to discuss something. Then we were presented with an amendment that you couldnt tell what it was going to do. The staff on the Appropriations Committee was very quick to point out what it was doing. The amendment adopted by the whole house ban the sale of Confederate Flag items and the amendment that was offered by chairman caliber was a attempt to negate this important amendments. It also went as far as to block the june 24 National Park memorandum into law. Which is what mr. Hoffman was doing. It even tied the agencys hand to take action against other partners who would ignore park service requests, or voluntarily withdraw the confederate sale items. Then it went further. It started moving toward keeping us from having her voice expressed as a house. An amendment that is not transparent and clear in what it is doing is an amendment that is deceitful. I believe it was deceived on the entire house of representatives to have an amendment come forward that didnt mention Confederate Flag in it once. Im very sad we have come to a point where the will of the house to speak out against hate to speak out against racism was to be undone without any transparency at all. We called for a rollcall vote. They obviously needed as we found out cents, leadership. The film wasnt bad enough for some republicans. To put in hate, to put in racism permanently into it by not allowing our park service to withdraw these objectionable items. Im pleased that we have brought this to everyones attention with the underlying issue is, that we need to put an end to the confederate battle flag in our public spaces. I would yield to mr. Richmond from louisiana. Thank you so much. I came up here and was going to start with something my grandmother used to always tell me often, forgive them for they know not what they do. The sad part your today, and the part that frightens me is that they know exactly what they are doing. Also, being the son and grandson of southern parents and grandparents who raised me in mississippi and louisiana the one thing that they stressed to me was the new testament. Watching those families in South Carolina who exhibited the best of the best by showing grace and mercy as they forgave the perpetrator. I stand here today praying for my republican colleagues who cant find the courage in their hearts, in their souls who are letting big hits and people who would reaffirm inferiority racism, and negative things. They are letting them win. The own thing i can do, the only thing we can do as a caucuses continue to fight for what we believe then i continue to pray for them that they will see the light. This is one nation with one flag. That we will only be a better country when we learn to love. It is sad to say that we have a body that represents this United States, and half of this body today let hate when you we will continue to love let hate win. We will continue to love. This nation is better than what we exhibited today. We will win and show love has a place in this country. We welcome everybody in it and everybody is fit. This is not a symbol of anything that we stand for, and the notion of the south will rise again is not something that we look forward to. We look forward to this country rising above hate and rising toward love. Thank you. With that, i will introduce our share of our hispanic caucus and the best member of the baseball team, that will be linda sanchez. Thank rep. Sanchez im proud to stand with my colleagues behind me. Im not quite sure how we got here, but im disappointed we have to be here today, fighting something that is a divisive symbol for this country. My parents are immigrants to this country. They love this country. One thing i remember my father talking about growing up was that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Yet here we are, in the 21st century, talking about argument fighting over symbols that are symbols of racism, oppression obtain, and for many minority communities, even interrogated 10terror. The only place the Confederate Flag lungs the pages of history. As the chair of the hispanic caucus, we will stand, b vogel, and we will be allowed. How ironic on a day when South Carolinas Legislature Took action to ban the flag here we are in the United States congress in the halls of the United States congress having to fight that battle. I sincerely hope that my republican majority can come to the same conclusion that we do. Devices symbols have no place above our federal public spaces. [speaking spanish] and now it is my pleasure to introduce our final speaker, the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, mr. Butterfield. Rep. Butterfield thank you very much. As the congresswoman said, im the last speaker so i will be brief so we can open up the process for questions and answers. I am indeed the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus. We have 26 members, 20 of the house Democratic Caucus, and 10 of the house of representatives. We are vitally interested in the work of the house of representatives. What happened today at offense all of us to say the least. Let me publicly thank beautiful oc for bringing this privileged resolution today. It was a very thoughtful resolution and it was certainly necessary and i asked the question after 150 years since slavery came to an end must we still have a debate over the Confederate Flag. Most of you certainly know that i too am from a southern state. I live in North Carolina and i remember seeing the Confederate Flag all of my life. Confederate flags still fly in my hometown every day. They are on cars and trucks and oliver our community. All over our community could it is not the heritage question that ought to be addressed. It is that we are one nation, like mr. Richman said, and the Confederate Flag has no place in our committees could without question the Confederate Flag offends the Congressional Black Caucus b. It offends all decent americans everywhere. We are so proud of what happened in South Carolina last night. The South Carolina legislature had the courage to do the right thing that we must. Now we must focus on mississippi. We asked the leadership to expedite consideration of ms. Policies resolution as well as mr. Thompsons resolution because america is waiting for an answer. I call all my colleagues to be thoughtful and rivers the actions of last evening. Let us get busy with the business that the American People care about. That is creating jobs and expanding medicaid and doing things that will power empower americas families to be better. Lets put the Confederate Flag issue to rest. Thank you very much. Rep. Pelosi i think it is important to note that the coincidences of time are remarkable. On the 47th anniversary of the 14th amendment, on the very day that South Carolina will have the bill signed to take down the flag, on that very day the republicans had to take down that appropriations bill. It is important to note this. The reason they proposed the calvert amendment last night was because, as their chairman said, they feared losing 100 of their members because of the jefferieshoffman amendment. Is that remarkable . 100 of their members would vote against the bill as congresswoman mccollum said. The bill was not bad enough for them. They needed something worse. The police and and the specialinterest, but they needed hatred in the bill as well. That is what is interesting. We have this conversation with you here for one reason. We were not able to speak on the floor. It is highly unusual for a privileged resolution offered by the leader of one of the parties on the floor to be denied any not one minute of the day. They yielded that all of their time because they were afraid of what our colleagues said. I tell you that they were more afraid of what those 100 members of Congress Might come to the floor and say in defense of the calvert amendment. Here we are on this day of so many coincidences. Letting do not let me not paint the brush of the south of those 100 members of the republican side. Many of them fought under the american flag. Patriotism lives there as well. This is not about them. It is about us. And who we are and how committed we are to when we take that oath, i pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of america and one nation under god, indivisible, with liberty justice, justice for all. That is what we want right now. Justice for all. Im so pleased to have so many of our colleagues here with the resource to answer any questions you may have. Speaker weiner said he wanted a bipartisan conversation from a formal Bipartisan Group to talk about congressional response to the Confederate Flag. Im eager to hear others as well. Leader nancy pelosi, can you describe what he had whether you had conversations . Rep. Pelosi what do we have to study . We have to study hatred in the Confederate Flag . It is simple. It is about time. Two weeks since june 25, now they are referring my resolution to committee. Now they want to set up a commission. Let us not wait one more minutes and take down that flag in the capital. Rep. Butterfield i recall president obamas usually and he addressed the question of whether we need to continue to have the conversation. The answer is no. We need action. We have had this conversation for 150 years now and it is time for thoughtful people to do what president Abraham Lincoln did at the end of the civil war, and that was to take Decisive Action and rid this country of White Supremacy and bigotry and hatred. Though, i do not support the idea of a commission. The time for talking and having a conversation is over. I think it is time for action. The house of representatives needs to act immediately. What does it say to you about the Republican Party . Do they just not get it on the offensive symbol or do they not care . What is the next step if you cannot force a a vote . Rep. Pelosi public sentiment is everything. You can account was almost anything with it. They will be waiting a flight felt white flag soon on the republican side to end this issue of taking down the confederate battle flag. I think you can make your own judgment about a party that says we will lose 100 of our members on the appropriations bill if we have legislation in there that limits the opportunity for people to buy the Confederate Flag. Anybody else want to speak to that . Under any circumstances, even in a limited way, could there ever be a time in the future with the flag could be in a confined way displayed . Rep. Butterfield the privileged resolution spoke to putting it in museums or localities where other artifacts of history are held. There is no way of trying to push it off. But the question is it needs to be in its rightful place. Where the symbols are now according to my privileged resolution, is not the right place. What about your own state flag . Where should that be in the conversation now . Rep. Jeffries theres not much difference in the Confederate Flag symbol that is being take them down in South Carolina in my state like it it is a major issue. Some of my colleagues paid attention to it for the first time. They jumped when they saw it because of the symbol. What we are trying to do, and im trying to say even to my people back home, we can do better. The good thing is that rc republican United States senators said we need to change it. For that very same reason, hopefully we can get enough Energy Without situations like South Carolina happening to get a change. What my question. One more question. Are you looking or calling for the removal the Mississippi State flag and other flag seem to be influenced by the Confederate Flag. Are you just looking for mississippi . Rep. Richmond my resolution only speaks to the mississippi flag in its present form. There are other symbols or artifacts, but it speaks specifically to the flag. There are certain areas where we fly it. It gives them out to those members from mississippi to choose to fly it in front of their offices. We respect that, but there are certain other areas here on the house side where we fly it. Rep. Thompson i clearly think thats inappropriate. Rep. Pelosi thank you all very much. I think my colleagues and i think all of you being here. We could not speak on the floor, but we will. I want to thank Betty Mccollum again because she was the linchpin for catching what we were doing in the appropriations bill. Thank you, betty. The ruckus over the Confederate Flag in the u. S. House began wednesday night and debate on the 2016 interior environment spending bill. A late amendment by ken calvert of california. For perspective, we are joined by devon henry with the help. He is from capitol hill. What was the amendment do . Devon the house passed to democratic amendments to diminish the flight. The amendments would ban small flags from confederate gravesites at the cemeteries and then future sales. Calvins amendment would basically undo both of us. It would go back to to current policies that are on the books right now, basically allowing the small flags to be put at gravesites and allowing the sale of merchandise. That amendment came up and debate Late Wednesday evening. Thursday morning comes around and speeches happen on the house floor, particularly from democrats about this amendment. What happened after that . Devon public leadership hold the bill. He had a lot of questions on this. He did not want the flight to become a political football and he wanted it to be a more serious discussion on this lack. He knew it would become a distraction for this bill. He didnt hold the amendment but the phone bill itself. The full bill itself. From your perspective, was democratic leadership taken by surprise by this amendment on wednesday night and the reaction on thursday morning . Devin Betty Mccollum was managing debate for democrats and she said that she was really surprised and taken aback at the back of this amendment would come up, especially so soon after democrats were able to insert their amendments. They really rallied around this issue. They had a series of speakers ready to go on the floor on thursday morning they had a printout of the life of a used on the floor and they were slamming both the flag and the decision to take up this amendment they were ready to go and try to defeat this. Dimension John Boehners reaction. You tweeted about that thing, boehner on flag, i believe it is time for some members to sit down and have a conversation on how to deal with this issue in a responsible way. Any indication of what he is looking for there . Devin my guess is that if this is a longerlasting story, he may have to lay out how he needs. A lot of states are considering their flag displays. It has been an issue that has come up on the help with regards to flags that incorporate that image around the capitol complex. It may be something that there needs to be a bigger reckoning on at some point. On that issue, democrats are looking to have the Mississippi State like, which has become ever that a flag in it removed from house buildings on the capitol complex. Where does that stand . Devin that was the amendment that nancy pelosi put on the floor, forcing republicans to vote on whether or not remove that flag. Republicans said no. They did that with another democratic resolution on the same matter earlier a couple weeks ago. She really caused a bit of ruckus on the floor. There was a raucous debate on the floor because of that with a lot of chancellor and everything like that. It was more of a protest than anything else. Republicans were not going to back that bill at the time. It allowed democrats to go after republicans. The amendment was proposed by ken calvert of california. He released a statement saying that he was asked by gop leadership to put forth this amendment based on the request of some southern republicans. What was behind that . Devin southern republicans have come up to say that they were upset that these democratic amendments were attached to the bill without the being able to vote on it. There was concern on the public and leadership that they may not be enough votes to pass the underlying bill. If a vulcans did not get the chance to vote on some these amendments obviously. Republicans were upset that they were attached and they wanted a chance to vote on it. Representative calvert said yes, i put up this amendment for a vote, but it was what leadership wanted to try to push the overall interior environment appropriations bill across the finish line. Devin is there any indication that the timing of this Governor Haley signing the bill into law in South Carolina on thursday that the timing of this vote would have happened at the same time . Any indication that House Republicans were mindful of that . Devin the issues they addressed on this were really about the issues that congress was dealing with the fact that these two amendments were attached on tuesday and that republicans wanted to repeal and undo those amendments. I do not think what happened in South Carolina played into that as well. It was the opposite result in South Carolina as well. They are not done with this issue, but they delayed the final consideration. What happens when it finally comes up . Devin that is what to do the interesting part. That bill has been very hard to pass. Already have a kratz were opposed to this bill because of the cuts to the Environmental Protection agency and the ways it went about blocking Obama Administration climate rules. This Confederate Flag issue put them over the top. Betty mccollum said that they went from a mail on this bill to a hell no on this bill. They have to resolve this flag is you and they want to get the bill on the floor entered the house. They will not have help from democrats to do it. They have the find a way to get around the flag issue first. Devin thursday afternoon surrounded by the families of the nine victims of the shooting at the church in South Carolina, governor nikki haley signed a bill to remove the Confederate Flag from the statehouse. The nine pens used to sign the legislation will go to the victims families. The ceremony lasted 10 minutes. Governor haley it is hard for us to look at what is happening in today and not think back to 22 days ago. It seems like so long ago. You because the grieving has been so hard. At the same time, we have all been struck by what was a tragedy that we did not think we would ever encounter. Nine amazing people that forever changed South Carolinas history. Having said that, i have to acknowledge the series of events in that took place through all of this. Because it is the true story of South Carolina, the actions that took place on what will go down in the history books. Nine people took in someone who did not look like them or act like them. And with true love and true faith and sure acceptance, they sat and prayed with him for an hour. That love and faith was so strong that it brought grace to their family. It showed them how to forget it then we saw the actions of forgiveness. We saw the family show the world what true forgiveness and grace looks like. That forgiveness and grace set off another action, and action of compassion by people all across South Carolina and all across this country. They stopped looking at each others differences. They started looking at each others similarities. Because we are all experiencing the same pain. Then you take that compassion and that compassion motivated action. That compassion motivated people wanting to do something about it. The action was taken by the in general assembly. A and what we saw in that swift action by both the house and senate was we saw members start to see what it was like to be in each others shoes. Start to see what it felt like. We heard about the true honor of heritage and tradition. We heard about the true pain that many have felt. A and we took the time to understand it. I saw passions get hot. I saw passions get low, but i saw commitment never ending date what we saw was another action. That action is that the Confederate Flag is coming off the grounds of the South Carolina statehouse. [applause] [cheering] [applause] Governor Haley tomorrow morning at 10 00 a. M. , we will see the Confederate Flag come down. We are a state that believes in tradition. We are state that believes in history. We are a state that believes in respect. We will bring it down with dignity and we will make sure it is put in its rightful place. But this is a story about action. This is a story about a history of South Carolina. And how the action of nine individuals laid out this long chain of events that forever show the state of South Carolina what love and forgiveness looks like. And i will tell you that now this is to our children. When they go back and look at the history books, while we are still grieving, and the grieving is going to last for a long time, when the emotion starts to fade, the history of the action that took place by everyone in South Carolina to get us to this moment is one that we can all be proud of. 22 days ago, i do not know that i would ever be able to say this again, but today i am very proud to say that it is a great day in South Carolina. [applause] Governor Haley so with that, we do not want to wait any longer. We are now going to sign the bill. I want to say it was with great pride that im surrounded by members of the emanuel nine family. I want to thank them for coming. I want to thank the former governors and senators who came together to say, while we have been a part of South Carolinas last, we want to see this part of South Carolinas future going into the right direction. I want to thank everybody who is with me today. Governor haley with that, im proud to say the bill has been signed. I do want to acknowledge these nine pens are going to the families of the emmanuel nine. [applause] Governor Haley may we never forget the actions that those people took to get us to this point today. And then ive got a couple of other pens. Many people have talked about the courage that took place by so many across the state. But one person start this almost two decades ago. That was governor david beasley. The last time i saw him, i said, you started it. He said, now i need you to finish it. [applause] Governor Haley and the second one is someone who also understands what this can feel like, what the intentions can feel like, what it to do something. He worked very hard and was the person to bring the Confederate Flag off the dome. I want to thank you for all you have done for South Carolina. Thank you. [applause] Governor Haley and these two are for me. With that, i will tell you thank you very much. Thank you for making it another great day in South Carolina. We are looking forward to the future and the future of our children. Thank you very much and god bless. [applause] in the call for the removal of the Confederate Flag was prompted to the killing of nine people at the historic emmanuel ame church in charleston on june 17. The flag will be taken down from the South Carolina statehouse at 10 00 a. M. On friday. On the next washington journal, congressman bobby scott of virginia is here to discuss the no trial the no child left behind and other education issues. And we look at the impact of the Environmental Protection agency. Our guest is Bruce Westermann of arkansas. Washington journal, live every morning at 7 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan. You can join the conversation through your calls and conversation on twitter. Today, the Heritage Foundation holds a discussion on the threat of isis and other terrorist organizations. And the ongoing regional and International Effort to combat them. See it live starting at noon eastern on cspan3. This week on first ladies, influence and image, we learn about Lucretia Garfield and Mary Arthur Mcelroy. Lucretia garfield, create or her friends, was an educated woman and a believer in womens rights, when her husband resident James Garfield was assassinated, she returned to ohio and insured his legacy by making their home into the early version of the president ial library. Chester arthur, becomes president and his sister, Mary Arthur Mcelroy took the role of first lady and establishes white house etiquette used by future first ladies for decades. Lucretia garfield and Mary Arthur Mcelroy, the sunday night at 8 00 p. M. On cspans original series, first ladies insolence and images. Influence and images. Sundays at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3. Cspan gives you the best access to congress. Live coverage of the u. S. House, congressional hearings and news conferences. Bringing you events that shape public policy. Every morning, washington journal is lied. With elected officials policymakers and journalists and your comments by phone facebook, and twitter. Cspan, created by american Cable Companies and brought to you as a Public Service by your local cable or satellite provider. Last month the Supreme Court ruled 54 against the Environmental Protection agencys 2011 emissions rules citing increased utility cost for consumers. Thursday coming epa Administrator Gina Mccarthy testified about her agencys regulatory agenda. And answered questions about the status of subpoenaed documents and transparency issues. This house science face and Technology Committee hearing is three hours. The committee on science, space, and technology will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the committee at any time and welcome to todays hearing entitled examining epas regulatory overreach. I will recognize myself to give fiveminute seven Opening Statement and then the Ranking Member. Over the last year, the Environmental Protection agency has released some of the most expensive and expansive regulations in its history. These rules will cost billions of dollars, burden American Families, and diminished the competitiveness of American Industries around the world. Todays hearing will examine this unprecedented regulatory agenda and the manner in which epa refused secret science interpretations and flawed analysis tumor two per noteo promote these rules. This is nothing more than a power grab to get the government more control over americans daily lives. Destroy american jobs and increase energy prices. That means everything will cost more from electricity to gasoline to food, which disproportionately hurts low income americans. Even epa data shows that these regulations would reduce Sea Level Rise by one 100th of an inch, the thickness of three sheets of paper. This rule represents massive costs without significant benefits. In other words, it is all pain no gain. Epa also seeks to impose stricter ozone sandals. Standards. Epas own figures show that since 1980, ozone levels have decreased by 33 . Todays air quality will continue to improve with the expected development of practical new technologies. Last week, the Supreme Court issued a ruling that is an important step towards reining in the extreme actions of the epa. A world that the epa must consider the cost of its decisions and way these costs against any potential benefits. For two years, the committee requested the voluntary production of the data that epa uses to justify cleanair regulations. The epas refusal to provide the data led to Science Committee to issue its first subpoena in 21 years to retrieve that information. Earlier this year, the committee was forced to issue a second subpoena to obtain information related to administrator deletion of almost 6000 Text Messages sent and received on her official from agency mobile devices. The administration claimed that all but one was personal. Most recently the committee requested information and documents related to the epas the committee was again forced to notice its intention to issue a subpoena for the information. Following this latest notice e. P. A. Has begun to produce a limited number of documents to the committee. However, producing documents in bits and pieces after months or years of delay are not the actions of an open and transparent administration. They are the actions of an agency and however, producing administration that has something to hide. Earlier this year, the house passed h. R. 1030, the secret signs reform act. This legislation requires the e. P. A. To base its information on public pli available data. Why would the e. P. A. Twoont hide this information from the American People . The e. P. A. Has a responsibility to be open and transparent with the people it serves and whose money it spends. I hope the administrator will tell us today if she will produce the data and other information the committee has requested. Then if she will help the president keep his pledge to maintain an open and transparent information. That concludes my Opening Statement and the Ranking Member is recognized for hers. E. P. A. s job is as hard as it is important. For two generations we have relied on e. P. A. To be the one federal agency to protect the public and the environment from the pollution that comes with being an industrial society. Standing against you are corporations that helped build their profits on a business model, that view rivers, lakes oceans and the sky as their dumping ground. However, two generations of Economic Growth and innovation have shown us that we can clean up the environment and grow our economy. If we were to rely just on the majority of assertions we would think everything e. P. A. Does is wrong. For example, the chairman has on a number of occasions cast majority of e. P. A. As a Secretive Organization setting out an aggressive regulatory agenda that ig no, sir Public Comments and throttles the American Economy. In fact, the reality of the situation is far different than the caricature. The reality is that the Obama Administration has done far more than the previous one to make sure that the water we drink and the air we breathe are clean. The administration is pursuing a pro Health Oriented environmental agenda that include reducing Carbon Emissions and slowing the path of global warming. These actions are immensely popular with the vast majority of americans. The economic results that the Obama Administration has delivered. As of january, the economy had gained almost 5 times more jobs under president obama than it did under the presidency of george w. Bush. Corporate profits are nearly doubled and stock prices have grown proportionately. This may come as news to my friends on the other side of the aisle but we are seeing e. P. A. Actually enforce the law something that the Prior Administration was reluctant to do. While also producing jobs and profits. It turns out that these are not mutually exclusive outcomes. Now the chairman is trying to paint a picture of the e. P. A. Trying to deal secret. He has made much of the administers deleting Text Messages the use of private email by e. P. A. Employees and the use of social media to reach out to americans to let them know of regulatory proposals. The truth is that no other agency in our jurisdiction has had to develop a more publicly discussed agenda than deal secret. E. P. A. This committee is not expert in regulatory processes so perhaps the majority is unaware of the multiple public sessions, the hundreds of formal filings and the hundreds of thousands of comments that e. P. A. Gets and processes in their regulatory action. It takes years and years of effort but e. P. A. To move a regulation from a proposal to a final rule. You have to ignore all of the Public Comments to believe that there is something secretive about e. P. A. s rule making. Finally, the use of social media to communicate with the American People is nothing more than recognition of how our sout communicates these days. I suspect every member of the committee uses twitter and facebook and the internet to communicate with our constituents and the broader public. Engaging the public and providing opportunities to shape regulation appear to me to be a positive step toward a more democratic government. In the past few years, ive heard many members of the majority complain that e. P. A. Needs to listen more to the public as they move proposals forward. However, the public consists of more than regulated industry with their highpriced lobbyists. So i cannot see how using social media does not fit with the broad belief of members on both sides of the aisle that people should have a voice in policy making. Let me close by encouraging you to not let the investigative theater of this hearing get to you. There are some in think tanks and industry lobby shops and perhaps even on this committee Whose Mission seems to be attack the reputation of the agency as a way to slow down your work. However, it is violetly important that e. P. A. Keep working to protect Public Health and improve our environment. The agency has been doing a remarkable job on that score and i hope and trust that you will not lose sight of the importance of your great public task. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you ms. Johnson. Our witness today is the honorable Jeana Mccarthy administer of the Environmental Protection agency. Prior to her appointment as administrator she was the assistant administrator for e. P. A. s office of air and laidation. Previously she served as the commissioner of the Connecticut Department of Environmental Protection. During her career which spans over 30 years she has worked at both the state and local levels on Environmental Issues and helped coordinate policies on Energy Transportation and the environment. Administer mccarthy received a bachelor of arts degree from the university of massachusetts and a masters of science in Environmental Health engineering and planning. Administrative mccarthy, we welcome you and if you would begin. Admin mccarthy thank you, chairman smith for inviting me here to testify on it the environmental regulatory efforts. The mission of epa is protection of Public Health and the environment and regulatory efforts in furtherance of those goals. We are guided in science and of the law which serve as the backbone of each of the agencies actions. I will focus and provide more details on three wheels which will hopefully provide tremendous benefit not only to share this information about tremendous benefit to the Public Health. Approximately 170 million americans which is one in three americans get their Drinking Water from streams without clear protection. The clean water rule will help to protect the waters vital to our health and economy. The clean water bill protects water and provide clarity on which waters are covered by the clean water act so they can be protected from pollution. The rule provides a clearer definition to establish which waters or jurisdictional and which are not and places boundaries for the first time it has limits case specific analysis. It makes clear it only applies when someone intends pollute or destroy a water because only then it does the need for a federal permit arise. It is not only maintains statutory exemptions from normal agricultural but expands regulatory exclusions to make it clear the rule does not add any additional permitting. And developing a rule, we held more than 400 meetings and reviewed over one million of Public Comments and listened carefully to perspectives from all sides. In addition, the agency is in the process of completing two significant rules. Because the air we breathe is so important to our Overall Health the Clean Air Act will review the ambient standards every five years to make sure they continue to protect Public Health with an adequate margin of safety. Based on the law, acer review and recommendations independent science and the assessment of epa scientists and technical experts, we issued a proposed rule last year taking comment on strengthening 75 pavilion. So with the adequately protect American Health and welfare. We invited comments, including an alternative level as low as 60 parts per billion and interest among some stakeholders in comments of the existing standards. We are currently reviewing the comments and will issue a final rule by october 1 of this year. Our Clean Power Plant. This summer, epa will finalize the clean power at which will cut carbon cut with that Carbon Pollution which is the largest stationary of co2 emissions in the country. Epa sought to provide a range of flexibility that will cut Carbon Pollution while maintaining affordable and safe guiding system liability. Climate change is affecting communities all across the United States and impacts will increase in the future burdening our children, grandchildren with health and economic challenges. The efforts and fell 4. 3 million comments we received has provided a tremendous amount of information. We expect to make changes to address many of the issues that have been right. A key consideration reinforced by many stakeholders before the proposal and during the comments is a need to design the role in a way we expect the urgency of Climate Change as well as the time it takes to plan and invest and the Electricity Sector in ways that ensure reliability and affordability. We have paid close attention to other comments and will finalize a rule that take them into account. Again, let me thank the committee for inviting me to speak and to use the best available science to implement our nations environmental laws so we can adequately and effectively protect health. I will forward to taking your questions. Chairman smith thank you. Let me say because of the interest today and the time limitations and expected votes and how many members are present, i will need to strictly enforce the fiveminute rule even on my cell. When you will not start until i asked my questions. Administrative mccarthy, my first question goes to the secret science reform act i introduce that passed the house and the Relevant Committee in the senate. President obamas science advisor testified before the committee and said the data on which regulatory decisions and other decisions based should be made available to the committee and made public. Why dont you agree with the size advisor and agree this data you used to justify should be made public . If you know it does not take a position and not making a judgment call and saying to the American People and other scientists desert to see it, i hope you have changed your mind. If so, we welcome that. Admin mccarthy let me first say epa totally supports transparency as well as a strong peerreviewed independent science process. The bill, i am afraid, will not get us there. We have had conversations before. The way in which our science works for signed it chairman smith why not make it public . Admin mccarthy the information you are asking us to reveal is chairman smith we have talked about it many times. It could be redacted. Why cant you release the information . Admin mccarthy the fundamental difference of opinion is i do not need the raw data. Chairman smith why cant you get at the data . Surely you have it. Admin mccarthy epa has it the authority and need to get information we have provided to you. Chairman smith you are saying you cannot give it because it is personal and now you say you do not have a print which is it . Admin mccarthy when we receive it, we cannot release it and much we do not have the Authority Chairman smith the president s size advisor saying you should make a public and we will be happy to redacted. No reason why other scientists cannot review it and why the American People should not see it. Admin mccarthy we are in line with the science advisor. He is not indicating every study that epa looks at to determine to of a body of chairman smith i am saying the studies you relied upon to justify admin mccarthy the body of data we do not generate, generating and science. Chairman smith i wish the epa you have nothing to hide and it looks like youre hiding a lot from the American People. Admin mccarthy just protecting peoples privacy. Chairman smith their own ways to do and every body does except for the epa. I think the epa needs to look at it. The Clean Power Plant, a secretary said it will reduce global temperature by only 0. 01 of a degree celsius and increase electricity and hurt the lowest income americans. How do you justify such an expensive, burdensome rule that will not do much good . Isnt this all pain and no gain . Admin mccarthy i do not agree. If you look at the ira we did, it is enormously beneficial. The value of this chairman smith do you think. 01 of a degree celsius is beneficial . Admin mccarthy it can trigger Global Action chairman smith do you disagree with my figure . Admin mccarthy i am not disagreeing that it will not make all of the difference. What i am saying is if we do not take action domestically chairman smith looking at the results, the results can not justify admin mccarthy cost beneficial chairman smith we will disagree on that. The production of documents and i appreciate you have been more forthcoming. Chairman smith do you disagree when can we expect to have all of the documents we have either requested or subpoenaed . Admin mccarthy epa is committed to transparency and compliance chairman smith can you give me a date when you will produce the documents . Admin mccarthy there are a number and so were still discussing chairman smith any kind the date . Admin mccarthy i am happy to continue those discussions. Chairman smith they have not led to the production. If you are not willing to give me a date in way you will try to give us the documents, i cannot believe the epa is acting in good faith. When is it . Admin mccarthy you have a number of requests and i want to make sure i do not give a date i cannot achieve. Chairman smith any target date . Admin mccarthy i cannot. The staff begins to discuss chairman smith it continues a pattern of obstruction we have been seeing a it would be easy for you to say i will get my best in the next 30 days. The fact you are not willing is disappointing. We are talking about largely with of these regulations is all pain and no gain admin mccarthy we will do it as quickly as we possibly can and make every effort. I am trying to avoid give you a date that anticipates chairman smith i just want a target date, a good faith a day. I am not hearing that. Thank you for your testimony today. To the Ranking Member. Rep. Johnson i want to remind you went one minute over. Chairman smith the Ranking Member is correct. She gets an additional minute. She is the last person who needs an additional minute. Rep. Johnson mrs. Mccarthy, the house is in the process of passing an appropriations bill that cuts your agencys budget by more than 750 million. It includes an amendment by the chairman to cut your office and funded by the office of ledges by more than 750 million. And of affairs based on a continuing pattern of obstruction and delays of committees request. I believe the chairman has signed or cosigned 11 document request letters in the first 26 weeks of this congress. Basically a letter every other week. Each of these letters have either a new request or an expansion of the previous request. I have three questions and i will ask at one time. What is your account all the letters from this committee and congress as a whole . How many documents have you provided to the committee to date, pages or document, however you keep track . Can you describe the impact of the cuts and the policy writers in the house appropriation bill would have your agency . Admin mccarthy since january 1 of this year, we have received 10 letters and was subpoena from this committee which is generated responses in over 15,000 pages of documents of the request and we are continuing to make production of documents to the committee. We held approximately 10 Conference Calls and communicated by email or phone with Committee Staff on over 35 occasions. We try to be as responsive as we can recognizing our commitment to transparency and important work of this committee. In terms of the budget cuts, the budget cuts proposed in the appropriations bill and variety of amendments that have been added would seriously threaten of the ability of epa to do is core work. I understand if there are disagreements and moving forward with symbols like our Clean Power Plant or our new ozone but this goes well beyond that to impact our ability to deliver clean water, clean air healthy land and work with states. This would be a devastating proposal in terms of disallowing us to move forward with the real problems we are facing today in what would be a series problem in terms of rolling back all of the work we would be able to accomplish the because no boots on the ground anymore. Rep. Johnson i have seen documents rolled in here from your agency on research that was not done by the federal government on Research Done 25 years ago on tobacco and lung disease. Are you still being badgered for information you do not have . Admin mccarthy part of the challenge with the secret science bill if it asks us to gather information we have no right to gather. In order to release it that publicly. Frankly the way in which science works in this country is we do not look as scientists do not exchange all of the raw data. They do not have to in order to do science and peerreviewed which is how the core the country has done science forever. Rep. Johnson is a true the American Cancer Society did research independently of the federal government . Admin mccarthy the two issues that started secret science was the development of studies that was developed by the American Cancer Society. Well thought of entities and if they had information that we saw that we were given the information and the authorities to gather and offered opportunities for the data to be reviewed by researchers. They are a cohort studies. They are followed for many years. Great studies and we rely on it. They are so filled with personal information it would be impossible to redact that. We are doing the best we can together the information out to people allowed to release but in no way does the allow the access of raw data allowing gus to rely on studies. Rep. Johnson thank you very much. Do i get an extra minute . What do you think this committee will do when they get it . We are now researchers. We have we have not done anything with a yet. Getting more and more, what is your opinion . Is it a value to us . Admin mccarthy one of the reasons why we rely on peerreviewed science is to allow raw data and science to be done by the scientists. My job is to rely on their judgment and make sure i follow all of the practice that congress has laid out to rely on peerreviewed science. I do not know of what value raw data is to the general public. I certainly will provide any information i have the authority to provide and i will do it in a way that still protects peoples interest. Rep. Johnson thank you. Chairman smith the gentleman from oklahoma. Mr. Lucas. Rep. Lucas the comments that stated the data used to justify regulations should be made public and available and the data to make conclusions as scientific studies should be made available and it is worth remembering the science advisorys testimony their regulatory decisions and others are based and should be available to the committee and made public. We should remember that. Having said that administrative, the epas use of data consistent with the agencys scientific integrity policy . Are you doing things consistent with your own integrity . Admin mccarthy yes, we are. Rep. Lucas i will be honest with you, administrator. Im a little sensitive about the waters. Can you guarantee me the all data supporting the final lotus role will be 100 public we available . Admin mccarthy it was published in the federal register a short time ago. All of the data into our conductivity study is already publicly available and the technical documents provided rep. Lucas in a particular area, have you may public how the epa develops 4000 feet of high tide line for ordinary High Water Mark in the final rule but was not the proposed rule . 1500 feet within 100 and the final rule . All of the waters within 100 feet of a ordinary High Water Mark, has that information is made available . Admin mccarthy it is available in the docket. The good news about attracting a million comments is allows us to make changes between proposal and finals raised on better signs a better understanding of how the agencys has been managing it for years. The knowledge and expertise of our staff, the information we receive from the Public Comments on the science available to us. Rep. Lucas i hope the information you say available is available and will be added to. I was simply observing many members and the public, the chairman and the president s science advisor make a good point. I was told there is a fine line between doing things for people and doing things to people. You are the agency may believe you are doing things for people but there is a perception out to their were the construction or variety of places, and all of these rules in you are not doing things for people. You are inevitably doing things to people. That is unfortunate set of circumstances. We in congress serve an important role. Going all the way back to our predecessors on the other side of the ocean. Our responsibility to protect the citizens from the king and his government. You are the president s administrator and our responsibility to make sure our constituents interests are taking care of erie and the king, using an old term, remembers the public. That said, mr. Chairman, i love forward to this information promised to us. I know with had substantial amount in recent days and maybe we need to have more hearings. Rep. Edwards we held joint hearings for the senate and the same issues and Data Committee and administrators and the administrator is here and i feel in some ways with a asked so many of these questions though many times. Frankly with the clean water rule, since the majority is already voted to gut it, it seems unclear why we are considering get today. Nonetheless, later in the day we are going to vote on the interior environment appropriations bill for fiscal year 2016 which includes the prevention of the epa proposing a standard lower than 75 parts per billion. During the debate i offered an amendment to strike that because of the testimony we have heard before this committee which told us the current standard is not aligned with the current science. In testimony we receive from dr. Mary rice in march on the Health Impacts of ozone, she indicated the research has grown stronger since the last time epa considered revising standards. One area was new evidence but with higher ozone levels and increase mortality. Administrator mccarthy, can you describe how the epa incorporates his changes into the rulemaking process . Some of my colleagues claim the science epa uses for is ozone regulation is somehow secret. Can you respond to those claims in your own words . What policies or processes does the epa have in place on the science that epa is considering . You could have a balance of my three minutes to do that. Admin mccarthy does Science Behind ozone is one of the most robust bodies of science that we have available to us. There are thousands of studies that have been done for decades that underpinned two ozone standards, sorry to read the agency has put out. And will underpin our next review. This is developed using our office a research and development and office of air and radiation or Work Together to present information that can they call an independent science assessment. They bring to a clean air i am sorry, a case act committee which is a faca. Directed, by congress to us to do. They are independent and a peerreviewed the science. A public process, Public Comments hearings, telephone calls. And then case asked provides advice to us as we take a look at it that and the staff also integrate what are regulatory standards are that are the basis of judgment of what that science means. They propose to the administrator usually a range of standards that i might consider that would be appropriate on the basis of the science, recognizes i have to look at what is with a margin of safety. I have to look at adding to what they give to add my policy judgment. The process is a lengthy one and takes years to develop. The body of signs is robust and looked at with Public Comment by independent peerreviewed scientists. The case of the ozone standard they articulated they think the current staggers of 75 parts not a way to protect Public Welfare and said i should be thinking about a range of 6070 ppb as the most appropriate basis of science available which is well understood and has been commented on. They went on to say that i recognize i have a policy judgment to make as well on this issue of using a margin of safety to make sure is adequately protected. On the basis of that, i developed a rulemaking which is also public which we proposed last year, late last year and we will finalize on october 1 or before of this year. In that, a look at the standard between 65 and 70 taking comment down to 60 and recognize people will want to talk about 75 again. Very clear to me on the base of case act, and open and credible process. Rep. Edwards thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, with the unanimous consent i would ask that i be allowed to enter letters into the record from my constituents including a girl scout troop saying we need to get on with this. Chairman smith without objection, thank you. Mr. Sensenbrenners recognized. Rep. Sensenbrenner i would like to ask a few questions about the Climate Change talks in paris the president is committed to reaching a deal. Do you support National Negotiations on Greenhouse Gas emissions . Admin mccarthy i support efforts to develop a global plan to move forward. Rep. Sensenbrenner global plan ends resulting in increases in the price of carbon, are you concerned about the fact that would disproportionately hurt poor and middle income people rather than people were in the upper 1 . Admin mccarthy i believe that the actions we take on a green will protect all of us of a more importantly those most vulnerable to changes in climate. Rep. Sensenbrenner i think poor and middle income people will be most concerned about what happens to their expenses it should the price of gas and electricity and natural gas and anything else carbon related go up if you guys go along with the increase in carbon. Are you concerned about the Economic Impact on the poor people . Admin mccarthy absolutely. Two different ways to reduce the Carbon Pollution threatening them and do it in a way that allows them to economically grow and become part of the middle class. Rep. Sensenbrenner how do you do that by increasing their cost . I have seen economic studies that indicate that the inquiries in and cost per family would be thousands of dollars and our have a much bigger impact on poor people then the ceos. Admin mccarthy congresss designed program for a costbenefit analysis and well done that with the Clean Power Plan. No way to history tells us that the sacrifice peoples income and jobs to continue to make improvements environmentally and carbon is no exception. You do exactly the way we designed the Clean Power Plan to allow tremendous flexibility and time to make reductions in a way that keeps our electricity reliable and affordable and rep. Sensenbrenner that is not what i have seen projecting things out. You know, i would ask you to have a preferential option to economically protect poor people that does not result in some goofy politically designed Redistribution Program or collects the money and then you tax and send it back according to designed good social engineering. Will you commit you will do it . Yes or no . Admin mccarthy i have not proposed a rep. Sensenbrenner i am looking for admin mccarthy that is not how it works. Rep. Sensenbrenner i have a couple of other questions. One of the problems we have had in these Climate Change negotiations is that china and india and russia do not want to have any reductions in their growth rates. The president kind of went along with reducing our Greenhouse Gas emissions but letting china do business as usual. Would you support an International Agreement that less china and russia and india off of the hook and not have the same reductions in Greenhouse Gases over the same Accounting Period as United States . Admin mccarthy i am not reading what is having the same way rep. Sensenbrenner no, no, would you support that . Admin mccarthy that is not rep. Sensenbrenner please answer the question i ask, would you support it . The president is supporting Something Like this in the past and maybe we should stop doing that given china an opportunity not to reduce its Greenhouse Gases until 2030. We have to reduce hours between 26 percent by 2018 and that does not seem like a good for america. Admin mccarthy i understand rep. Sensenbrenner do you think it is good . Admin mccarthy i understand Everybody Needs to act and china and the u. S. And other large economies it need to move forward to reduce Carbon Pollution rep. Sensenbrenner then i guess the deal the president hatched with the chinese when he was in beijing does not fall within your markers that everybody has to step up to the plate. They are sitting in the dugout or some other place. I yield back. Chairman smith thank you. The gentlewoman is recognized. Rep. Bonamici thank you administrator mccarthy for appearing and the important work to protect the health of oregonians and america. I am optimistic and im happy to hear my colleagues are concerned about the needs of low income people. That is good news today. I want to thank you for the epa commitment to the cleanup of the oregon and i look forward to the investigation study and we know it has been a challenge of costeffective cleanup methods that will allow local parties to stay on track toward the goal of presenting and proposed cleanup plan in 2016. After many years, we are more than ready to resolve the situation of the Portland Harbor and i look forward. Admin mccarthy the state has been a wonderful partner and we will get this over the finish line. Rep. Bonamici i appreciated that. I got back from oregon and i was there last week when it was close to 100 degrees and high 90s. People are concerned about Climate Change and warming temperatures particularly with the risk associated, our water temperatures, habitats to the extent core populations of some fish could become extinct. Where deal of withdrawal, my neighbors to the south more seriously we are dealing with the drought, my names to the south more seriously. A situation in oregon. Can you mention how the work you are doing will help with some of the issues . Admin mccarthy let me be very quick. The work to implement the president s Climate Action plan which is domestic that will reduce Carbon Pollution but also maintain the growth in our environment we are all looking forward to continuing. And epa in particular is moving forward in ways to take action to reduce Carbon Pollution. The good news is it was done a strategy to get engagement to happen. It needs a global solution. That is what is happening. Rep. Bonamici thank you. I want to point out that there has been a lot of conversation about the cost of regulation. Last year, the omb estimated rules promulgated by the epa in that decade created between 165 billion and 180 billion in benefits. That sounds like a good number. I really glad youre working on the Clean Power Plant and reducing toxins in our air and water. So, so witnesses before this committee have offered the opinion that some of my colleagues they epa regulation should only be environmentally Beneficial Technology is widely available. Other support is a long history of technology but coming available after the epa determined they are feasible. Does regulation drive innovation and technology to reduce renewables . Emphasizing the epa regulations, in absence, not generally an incentive for widespread deployment. We tackled acid rain under the george bush administration. Could you comment on the proposed rule to reduce Greenhouse Gas emissions from new power plants will incentivize new innovation . Admin mccarthy the Clean Air Act was designed and tested tasks sections that were moving technology forward. Technology spurring. The section we are regulating and the power place under the Carbon Pollution is one of those Solutions Bring it to does say we need to continue to bring forward under our new standards. What we have done is set a standard it that is 30 years away. We have set a standard that is an investment signal in order to tell states they have every flexibility to get to that standard. Also a signal to the market, it will tell People Investment in renewables are not only affordable today but will get more affordable. This is a marketbased approach to address a compounding problem in a way that states can drive it and works best for them and develops the business they want and the jobs they want to take advantage of. Rep. Bonamici in our state will we passed a tariff for solar. A lot of potential for innovation. I yield back. Chairman smith the gentleman from california is recognized. Rep. Rorrabacher thank you very much. Obviously very articulate and hardworking person and we respect and that even though we may have differences. I just do you know in your background of any examples where scientists or people involved in policy were ignoring certain raw data in order to achieve a certain conclusion . Have you ever come across that . Admin mccarthy not individuals i have worked with. Rep. Rorrabacher do you know examples . You do not know in examples where people do not fulfill admin mccarthy personally no. Rep. Rorrabacher will i would have to suggest that maybe you are a little naave in that area, those who have been around have seen this. Several occasions. Not knowing any examples, you feel totally secure in telling us we must entrust admin mccarthy no, sir. No, sir. No, sir. I clearly i read about instances where science has not has been manipulated. That is why we work through an independent peerreviewed body to be able to provide us advice rep. Rorrabacher what about us . We are elected. Your peerreviewed as not elected we are elected every excuse me one moment the we are elected by the people to make sure their interest are watched out for preyou are asking us to trust instead of trying to look at whatever data is used for these decisionmaking yourself. Admin mccarthy there is no trust me. You have given me a job this government has provided the structure by which i do my job including rep. Rorrabacher the structure was set up was the constitution that Left Congress primarily responsible to watch out directly for the interest of the American People because they vote for us. You are undermining that basic constitutional privilege when you tell us theres information you will not give us. Admin mccarthy no, sir giving you Sensitive Information. Rep. Rorrabacher Sensitive Information not a given to the people elected by the voters of this country is an insult to the people, our constitution everything this country is supposed to be about including freedom and openness, etc. What percentage of the atmosphere is co2 . Admin mccarthy what percentage of the atmosphere co2 . I do not have a calculation for you, sir. Rep. Rorrabacher maybe you could tell us your personal guess is a what percentage. Admin mccarthy i do not make those guesses, sir. Rep. Rorrabacher you are the head of the epa in you do not know. You have all of these laws, you will get your staffer to tell you now. You did not know what percentage and now you are pacing pop policies on the American People and do not know what the content of co2 in the atmosphere was which is not which is a justification for the policies you are talking about . Admin mccarthy if youre asking me how much still to is in the atmosphere, not a percentage of but how much levels of rep. Rorrabacher i thought this was clear and it is clear you do not know. Co2 from what i understand is only one half of 1 10 of 1 of the atmosphere. And you believe this minimal tiny element and only 10 of that from what i understand is actually manmade and of course, whatever you are suggesting and being suggested as the basis for creating what we consider draconian rules is 1 10 that is manmade of the one half of what 10th of one half of 1 will have an impact on the weather to the point it will impact peoples health. Chairman smith the gentlemans time has expired. The gentlewoman ms. Clark is recognized. Rep. Clark thank you. I appreciate you being here and your testimony and i especially appreciate the correct pronunciation of carbon. Rep. Clark i wanted to ask you another percentage question, what percentage do you think of low income people, in fact all people would be affected by Climate Change if we do not do something to address it . Admin mccarthy i believe everybody, 100 is affected and will be more severely affected if we do not take action now. Rep. Clark willoughby felt first by low income people . Admin mccarthy it usually is pretty it is well known across the world a you are seeing get played out right away. We need to check out the changes already happening. People in low income areas do not have the wherewithal to adapt that many of us actually enjoy. It is up to us to meet our moral responsibility not just to them but our kids future. Rep. Clark we have had a lot of discussion today about raw data. Could you go into independent peerreviewed and how we actually review and determine what is valid science to base our regulations on . I do not have scientific training. I am an attorney. I do not think i am qualified to look their raw data and if we acted to make a mistake to redacted to make of this redacted to make an assessment. Admin mccarthy the way it works is we have to have our science independently peerreviewed. You need to have an open process that is transparent when you pick experts with the knowledge in that field. Rep. Clark without releasing every bit of a raw data . Admin mccarthy we do how transparency and picking those experts and in picking the discussion of what they think about of those documents. We have public review and comment on those documents. That is before we can really rely on of them as the basis of regulatory action. We was just looking at one document. We look at a huge, robust document, series of science. In order to underpin our major rulemaking. The scientist to do not look at the raw data. They can if they want and region agreement with the researcher who on the data and sometimes own some of the modeling. They do not need to. They look within the context of their knowledge of the science and all brought a broad body of knowledge we look at to see if it is being done correctly according to the science and if the factors that should be discussed and within the context and further it can be replicated by others. They do not all sit around and say i will take another four years and give me the raw data. That is not the way science is done. That is the way science cannot get done. Rep. Clark do you see other agencies also looking at science where that is the process, as are going back to the raw data . Admin mccarthy if you name an agency in the United States that is a credible science agency, that is how they do their work. That is what the National Academies is. That is how you do it. Rep. Clark speaking government analysis, the union all caps are scientists came out the report and the union of concerned scientists came out with a report of laws resulted in 31 states making commitments to put them halfway towards their 2020 benchmarks pretty do you think we will be surprised at how easily states are going to be able to meet these benchmarks even if the plan was not there . Admin mccarthy i think the challenge prize is to make sure that it through our rulemaking we do what the law is to reduce carbon. The way to do that affordable as to look at how the Energy Transition is happening. Instead of thinking you have to go away in front of it, you go behind and keep pushing. That is how it works. I would not be surprised either the utilities of the states go away further then we require. That is usually what happens. It is called good regulation and rulemaking. It is exactly what we did with the Carbon Pollution. We give every state the flexibility to design the plan for the house. We are setting the standard. Far enough away that the technology will get better if we send the right signals. An opportunity for us to continue that Energy Transition to clean energy and low carbon. Rep. Clark thank you. Chairman smith the gentleman from alabama, mr. Brooks. Rep. Brooks the proposed regulations admit the agencys rule cost america at a minimum 3. 9 billion per year at 70 parts per billion and 15 billion at 65 parts per billion. In contrast a study by the National Economic Research Associates estimates that an epa ozone limit of 65 parts per billion would cut americas Gross Domestic Product by 74 billion per year in real dollar terms totaling 1. 7 trillion in lost between 2017 and 2040. Thus denying struggling American Families and average of 1. 4 million jobs per year through 2040. Administrator mccarthy, i hope you will concur the more damage the epa regulations due to the American Economy, the poorer the American Economy is and the less money america has to pay for and ensure to americans have clean water. Anecdotally, you can look at any number of poor, heavily Populated Areas around the globe that does not have the economic means to pay for pollution resulting in some of the worst polluted areas on the planet. In february, alabama governor sent you a letter emphasizing that the proposed also regulations and do more damage than good. Mr. Chairman, i would like to submit governor bentleys letter to the pa, more specifically the honorable Gina Mccarthy for the record. Chairman smith without objection. Rep. Brooks the proposed ozone rule v administrator knows the determination of what constitutes an adequate margin of safety is expressly left to the judgment of the epa administrator. Administrative mccarthy, it appears your quote calculation will determine the epas ozone parts per billion standard and what kind of damage will be done to the American Economy and jobs. Is that accurate . The standard is what epa will go by . Yes, no, i do not know . Admin mccarthy that is what the statute requires. Rep. Brooks since the ozone regulations may be the costliest in apa history which is saying quite a bit, America Needs and deserves a precise and clear definition of adequate margin of safety means. What is your precise definition of and a specific scientific methodology you intend to use to define adequate margin of safety . Admin mccarthy it is in the statue given as a policy judgment i wouldve made. Safety . Definition as you try to wrestle with what it means . I assume you use scientific methodologies and perhaps sound economic as you try to rep. Brooks what is your determine war are rather vague terms. Admin mccarthy you will be able to see in the rules a very good discussion of what my judgment is and the basis. It will not run the basis of cost. It is a Health Standard to protect Public Health. Cost is not a consideration. Rep. Brooks how can you say health is not a consideration of cost . It is a function of what we can pay for . Admin mccarthy a way what we estimate to be the illustrative cause. In terms of how you determine is not considered until implementation. It is a function of what we can pay for . Rep. Brooks are you going to share with us today your definition, your understanding your methodology of what the phrase adequate margin of safety means. Admin mccarthy that will be shared