Transcripts For CSPAN Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20240622

They had to use their weapons. That is an example of the applicability of this. If you combine the blindness with this broad reach. And we face a challenge if not seen before. This is not your grandfathers al qaeda. This is a very new threat that we face. Some people say you have all kinds of other information. We live in the golden age of surveillance. I think of it differently. I think with over the golden age of communication. Osama bin laden would never have dreamed that he could speak simultaneously to hundreds of americans, find them, and the task of them in ways that Law Enforcement could not see. The golden age of communication is posting enormous challenges for us. Im not here to scare folks for us. There is a problem. I do not know the answer. A whole lot of good people that said it is too hard. It will all fall down and we will have a disaster. Maybe that is so. My reaction is, im not sure we really tried. I think Silicon Valley is full of great people that were told their dreams are too hard. Thank goodness they did not listen. I think we have the talent to think about this in a good way. My hope is that folks will realize that this really matters. We are telling people we have to talk about this. I see the present, and the future, which in many ways is more troubling. The fbi is not an Occupying Force imposed on the American People from abroad. We belong to the American People. We only have the tools have given us through you. Im here to tell the American People that the tools you have given us are not working the way you expect them to work. I need help figuring out what to do about that. Companies are run by good people, they see the challenge. We have to figure out a way to solve this. I think this country has never been made up of people who say it cant be done. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss that with the committee. Senator burr i think it is safe to restate that we are at the start of the debate, even though we have had the conversations were sometime privately. We have watched encryption grow more dominant. Really, as you said, it is become the default. It is almost automatic now. It places a huge challenge on your ability to fulfill your mandate. And our challenge is to work with you as an extension of the American People. I think as we go to this debate we will figure out where that is. I will turn to the vicechairman for her questions. Vicechairman . Senator feinstein thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I think this book very eloquently director comey. Can you tell us how often the fbi acting pursuant to a warrant or other lawful process encounters in printed information you cannot access . Director comey thank you, senator feinstein. The answer is a really cannot at this point. We are the beginning of this. Get the thing is it is a bit like proving a negative. When my folks you did something is encrypted they move on. We have incidents where wiretaps were issued than encryption was encountered, but i dont have good enough numbers yet. Senator feinstein i think it will be helpful if the department could gather some numbers to quantify this. The next question is, bsa, known as the software alliance, send a letter to this committee stating that calls for weakened encryption can create artificial disadvantages for United States companies and barriers to market access. I would like to have your reaction to that statement. Director comey first, i think i take issue with the notion of weakening encryption. I also take issue with the whole backdoor notion. What smart people of told me is there are number of companies are pretty out there that you strong encryption that have the ability to access the data and comply with court orders. They are able to do both and a robust way. In all different sectors. In the isp world, and finance, and other places. I dont know it will be a case of weakening encryption. It with figuring out how to be comply with a judges order. I dont that the government is smart enough to be able to impose a onesizefitsall solution. I also think youre right that they are competitive and there are international implications. I do think there are International Applications to be considered. Every country the cares of the rule of law is grappling with this right now. All of them are trying to figure out to maximize safety on the internet. And maximize Public Safety, and do it under the rule of law. Our friends in the u. K. Are doing it right now. I agree there are implications internationally. Senator feinstein let me ask you to respond to another quote requiring technology that provides Law Enforcement access to technologies also risks undermining the security of all electronic medications and digitally stored information. Would you comment on that . As i understand it, what you would be talking about is some kind of front door key . Director comey again my reaction is maybe. If that is the case, i guess we are stuck. I dont think the great innovative people of america, if they put their minds to this, i believe there are companies that provide significant portions that have strongly encrypt the data and have the ability to see the data and comply with court orders. Senator feinstein you are saying some do and some dont. Director comey theyve managed to do it without the entire system crashing, or their own business being vulnerable. There is no such thing as secure. There is mold ability and every system. What can we do to maximize Public Safety. I think a lot of smart people should be trying to figure that out. Senator wyden every senator that servants committee understand it is a dangerous world. The challenge is to make sure that we pursue approaches that promote security while not diminishing our liberty. Too often we of not been able to do that. I want to emphasize how exactly we got here. Executive Branch Agencies are now dealing with a problem that they largely created. Senior officials made the choice to secretly twist of the law to support an illconceived Sticker Program that vacuumed up millions of email records. A number of us spent years warning what the consequences would be. Obviously, Public Confidence was genetically diminished. That led to a curious public backlash. As senator feinstein read, companies and celebrated their efforts to provide customers with stronger protections. This great real challenges. I will tell the u. S. Of this morning, statements are being made that do not inspire a lot of confidence. You talk about the need to strike the right balance theres not been a lot of balance in the past. What i heard this morning, there is still not too much balance. The Deputy Attorney general seems to suggest this morning that company should retain a stockpile of Encryption Keys for the government to access, making this a mandatory requirement would present huge problems sent any such stockpile would be vulnerable to compromise or abuse. In my judgment a mandate like that would be a huge gift to foreign hackers and criminals. What i want to do with my time is put this into context on a matter we all care about, which is Cyber Security. I have had companies in oregon hacked for espionage. My constituents are not alone. On the topic of encryption, has the executive branch done any analysis of the impact that a requirement for u. S. Companies to build weaker encryptions, or stockpile these Encryption Keys would have on u. S. Cyber security . Director comey not that im aware of. That forms part of our concern. I do not understand or to be saying that. I understood her to realize that the end we want is that companies however they choose to do it will be able to comply with judges orders. We dont want to impose a onesizefitsall. We want to figure out what works for you. Senator wyden she was suggesting that there be a stockpile of these keys. Once youre going down that route i think it is trouble. Having said that you are not aware of any study, is it fair to say that strong encryption improve Cyber Security . Director comey yes. Strong encryption is great. Senator wyden if a stockpile of Encryption Keys was created somewhere. I took mr. Yatess comment not be the government. If you had a stockpile of these keys created somewhere, would you be able to guarantee that these keys would never be stolen . Director comey the hypothetical stockpile of keys . Surely not. I dont know what the answer is. Senator wyden i think youre right. Based on my 14 years of service on this committee, i dont have a lot of confidence that a stockpile of these Encryption Keys and i heard there ought to be some kind of arrangement that these Encryption Keys somewhere. Im not confident it would not be compromised. That is the flaw in the concept. Chairman burr senator heinrich . Senator heinrich if id one in particular it would be that we are missing experts who have valid concerns around these ideas. So, one of the things i was suggest is that we consider holding a followup public hearing where we can hear from some of those individuals as well, particularly in the technology space. In the meantime, i ask you getting this consent that a number of letters and Background Materials that you did not include in your earlier unanimous consent be made part of the hearing. Chairman burr without objection. Senator heinrich lets see, director comey, this issue of losing access to encrypted communications is complex. Particularly from a technological point of view. I guess them at the start by commending you, and nsa director rogers, for your willingness to address this publicly. One of the challenges is that it would be very hard to address this issue without a specific technological proposal. To be able to discuss it. Back in the 90s we had a first crack at this which came apart at the seams once it became solidified around a particular piece of technology. That is what i am concerned about the day. I will submit the rest of my Opening Statement for the records like to get a couple of questions. I think that will be at the crux of this conversation for a while. We need to know what a potential fix looks like. What those look like in order to know if a fix is better or if it creates weaknesses that are exploitable by these talented nefarious actors. As you know, yesterday several respected Cyber Security experts, people really well renowned in the area of cryptography, released a report that concluded that you cannot reliably provide the government with exceptional access to Software Applications without introducing weaknesses in that encryption. Given your interest in this issue, one of the things i am concerned about that it seems like these are talking past one another. When you dig the technology pieces of this on the table so that they can all agree we are talking about the same thing. I think it would be a mistake, with regard to exceptional access, to be the solution to a congress that i would argue is not always the best judge of technical things. As you mentioned, there are a lot of people in Silicon Valley who are doing a really good job of trying to manage these things. Can you give some examples of programs that currently use some form of endtoend encryption . Also, that are able to respond to the Law Enforcement warrants . Director comey thank you, senator. I agree, which is why im excited about this opportunity i think things like this hearing will drive the conversation. We need to do with together. We need their help in solving this. I never heard, until i read the executive summary, exceptional access. My reaction is that i dont want to exceptional access i want ordinary access, where folks are able to comply with a judge. That are providers who because of their Business Model strongly Encrypt Communications but are visible on their servers that they control. They want to sell you ads, so they need to see the content. For those providers, some of them are huge providers, we are able to serve a judges order and to the content of communications that the judges authorized us to do. I dont think those folks think their system is materially vulnerable. I wonder whether that isnt an example that we should use in our conversations with the companies. Every company will be different. Some companies that the terrorist use our three guys in a garage. Our ability to work with and may be very different. I dont think we want to be seen as imposing this fix on all of you. I dont want to demonize the companies either. They love their country, they care about Public Safety. It is about how do we maximize both of these . Maybe it is impossible. Im not ready to give up on it yet. Senator heinrich i guess everyone has this concern about having been one of the people that got a letter recently. The government might not be the right folks to be holding the keys for and an encryption. When he divided more elegant approach. Chairman burr mr. Cotton. Senator cotton to be sure i understand the issue, were talking about not some kind of extraordinary surveillance not something that is unknown to the user of a device, but Encryption Technology that would thwart a lawful court order by Law Enforcement authorities to get access to data. Then you go to a company and the company says sorry we cannot provide you this information. Director comey that is correct. And with respect to a device that blocks, and the same judge issues a search warrant. And they said they cant because they designed the phones that cannot be unlocked. Senator cotton i know you testified in front of the Judiciary Committee this is an issue not just for terrorist operations but i would presume for things like child molesters, child pornographers, kidnappers. Director comey yes. This is an overwhelming issue. Especially the data that is on a device that cannot be opened because they tell me that is a feature the could also tell you someone is not guilty. It is important in all their work. Senator cotton i spent some time in the little rock fbi field office. First they want to commend the agents you have in that field office for their dedicated public service. It was a very important afternoon for me. They specifically brought up the going dark issue. And the way it is worded their issues. Furthermore, i was able to see in their lab and effort to get access to a locked device. They got access and it allowed them to recover a young girl who had gone missing. They said they were fortunate there were able to do that. In all 50 states in our union is this an ongoing problem . Director comey yes. The companies senator cotton do they realize that it is being used by the most heinous criminals in our society . Director comey they do, and it bothers them which is why we are starting to have better conversations. Senator cotton we are not the only society to encounter this problem. One argument you can make is that they need to compete in the International Market because most people dont live in the United States. Have you taken a look at how countries like the United Kingdom or france have addressed this issue . Director comey they are both grappling with this theyre both a little bit ahead of us. They have passed legislation that will require providers to give access with appropriate authority in the course of investigations. Theyre grappling with this just as we are. Everybody who cares of the rule of law and Public Safety has to grapple with the same thing. Senator cotton about 20 years ago this Congress Passed a law saying on telephones that Telephone Companies had to provide the ability to let Law Enforcement with a lawful court order put in a wiretap. Could you look to what other country said don to address the Going Dark Program have done to address the Going Dark Program . Director comey it is one of the things being talked about, cannot be adapted for this challenge . Were still working on that. By us, not just the government but private sector has to be part of that as well. Chairman burr does the executive senator cotton does the Second Branch have proposals take honored by cement . Is that because you are working with his Company Still . Director comey yes. The president sees the problem. We care about intention and that it is a really hard problem. One of the issues is to figure out which legislation would make sense. Senator cotton thank you very much for your testimony. You keep us safe fund is that the fourth of july. I urge you to get the proposal to us as quickly as possible. Also ensure that Law Enforcement has the tools they need not just to stop terrorism but stop the most heinous crimes imaginable. Chairman burr senator coates. Senator coates director, you having a very worthwhile discussion and i appreciate you being here. And also your openmindedness in terms of finding humility in the sense of saying we dont know all the answers. But there are a lot of cooperative and smart people out there that can help us find the answers. They hopefully obtain that balance. I dont envy you, or your job, because everyday at the got the paper or turn on the television and there is an inducted child a criminal act, there is a threat from abroad. The American Public is demanding that your agency do Everything Possible to prevent that from happening. And everything to address the blatant use of communication devices and so forth. By the same token, you get it from the other side by saying dont you dare do anything that would give you violate someones privacy. That is a very narrow path to walk down. I think your statement relative to the fact that we need to turn to those very people that are providing the encryption in order to protect peoples privacy is an essential part of the solution. My question is, while we can make patriotic requests to all these Technical Companies to help us through this, we also know that there are countries around the world that have no intent of helping us whatsoever. Within those countries, or even some of those lawless areas like isil, the last thing they want to do is cooperate with us in terms of finding a solution to this particular problem. So it would be very easy well, that turns is the difficulty of no matter how much we do we are a Global Communication system. It is easily to turn somewhere else. We have seen offshore gambling because we passed laws saying you cant do gambling in the United States. Recently find an island in the caribbean and set up. I am wondering, you can continue to have the agency perform its role without some thought of authority to allow you to, within the legal system, address the problem. Obviously, it will take time to develop any kind of solution. What do you have to do relative to manpower costs to fill the gap between now and then . Director comey thank you, senator. I know you are tired. My folks are bone tired, but they stopped on july 4. They are on to the next thing. Thank you for that. We love walking the fine line between safety and Civil Liberties. We care about the things we care about. We have to figure out an approach. What we do will set the tone and pattern for the rest of the world. We can drive it. We try to fill the gap by a of i cannot see the communications of a terrorist, i have to figure out, can i follow him 24 7 for weeks and weeks . My folks will keep working on no matter how tired they are. Its just that the tools the American People thought we had are being diminished. Senator hirono i would like to get a little more information about your ability to see information. For example, in how may cases have you sought a warrant for a device that was completely thrwarted and unable to progress because of encryption . Dir. Comey i dont know the answer to that. I am going to try and see if we can collect data on that. I am not confident that it is going to be reliable for you. Our investigators, if they see that they are on an app that is encrypted, they will not seek a wiretap for that. So we dont count that as a wiretap thwarted. We try to find another way to assess the situation. We are going to try to do that for you, but i am not optimistic we can get you a great data set. The logic of this is, all of our papers will eventually be covered by strong encryption. I hope everybody agrees that will have profound consequences for Law Enforcement. Senator hirono it always helps to define the extent of the problem and the current situation. And as you say, no system is secure so we need to weigh what the risks are. At the same time, we have this very robust group for saying companies to provide a backdoor to encryption and is going to result into possibly unintended consequences, including some of our companies will lose competitive advantage. If our companies have to provide a back door way to get to this information and Foreign Companies dont, then they are in a comparative disadvantage. There are a lot of issues we have to weigh. Did i understand you to say that expanding kelly a is just one of the things on the table . I thought you had said at another forum perhaps that you think it should be expanded to include encryption apps. Dir. Comey i dont know if i said that. If i said it, i am smarter now than i was then. I think that is something that folks are discussing but i dont know what the answer is. That is why we havent come to the hearing with a proposal. We are trying to show humility by saying that we dont know what would be best. But i agree with the competitive points. Senator hirono companies are providing more and more tests. What legislative action would enable you to get access to information and yet still provide companies with the kind of environment that they would like us to provide . What is the timeframe . Dir. Comey i dont know. I do think this is one of the most complicated problems i have ever seen in government. We dont want to damage the engine of innovation that is america. We have to figure out how can we maximize safety on the internet and Public Safety in a way that makes sense for america. We have to figure out what makes sense for our country, but we have to do that in league with International Partners so we dont create a situation where america is the only mover and that causes harm to our companies. Senator hirono i think that is an important aspect Going Forward. It would be very unfair to our companies if we are the only country that requires a backdoor way to this information. Im glad that that is on the table in our discussions with other countries. So the president s review group that is something other people have already mentioned. They said very strongly that we should not require a back doorway. So in these discussions, the Technology Companies, are they going to be at the table as we discussed Going Forward and what might be appropriate legislative action . Dir. Comey they have to be. I think we all think no size fits all. We have to figure out what works for different companies. As i said before, i think that is the source of the innovation, the creativity that we have to harness. Senator mikulski it is very nice to see you again. Mr. Chairman, thank you for having this hearing as well as the vice chair. I would like to pick up on senator heinrichs recommendation about an additional hearing on the subject. In our briefing, i saw a lot of criticism of what we are pursuing here for some type of opportunity to not go dark. But i did not see any solutions. I saw a lot of criticisms, a lot of critiques, but i did not see solutions. We have tremendous technical knowhow and i believe that the people in Silicon Valley are indeed very patriotic people and they dont want drug dealers and international traffickers and pornographers to get away with various things. So if we could get from those as well as the Civil Liberties Community Start working towards a solution, that would be great. In this years appropriations funding, we worked very hard to support you. It is now senator shelby. We have now put in 8. 4 billion to fund you for this coming year. My question to you is do you feel that those resources and the type of workforce you have is able to be flexible enough to meet the ongoing threat . I am not being critical of what you have, but as you talk about the recruitment tolls of isil, who are very talented at using social media, that is a whole different generation, a different generation from the other Cyber Warriors of your predecessor. So do you have enough resources to recruit the people needed to deal with this as well as the administrative flexibility to bring in teams . This is not going to be your traditional agent. We could have the best law in the world, but unless you have the best workforce and the flexibility and the resources to hire it, we are just providing hollow opportunities. Dir. Comey i think the answer is yes and no. Yes, i believe that the senate and this congress is giving us the resources i need for next year. The money i can responsibly spend. But i face a threat that continues to grow so i will be back to ask for additional help. But you have given us what we can reasonably spend, reasonably invest in. Yes, i think i can attract the talent. I cannot compete on dough. You did not come here to get rich. But so many young people want to make a difference in the life of this country that they dont care about the dough. They want to be a part of addressing these threats. That is pretty exciting. I am optimistic. Once i get them in and they are here five or six years and they have a family and there are no costofliving adjustments, i may lose them. Senator mikulski what about the flexibility . You are now operating in the social media. Your predecessor faced al qaeda. You face a variety of other challenges. Do you have the administrative flexibility to bring on people as you need them that might not be the traditional trade route for recruitment of fbi personnel . Dir. Comey i think so. There is a couple of things around that that i am thinking about. But in the main, the answer is yes. One of the things we have to consider is you look at a different career proposition for people. Once people come to the fbi, they never leave. They get addicted to it. But then they go and do something in the private sector and then come back. That is something we have not done before. But that is a model we need to look at. But in the main, yes, you have given me the flexability. Senator mikulski we have three socalled coincidences today. The fact that technology failed at united airlines, the new york stock exchange, as well as the wall street journal. I dont believe in coincidence. Is the fbi investigating these as breaches . Have you not been called in or are you are not able to say . I am very troubled. Dir. Comey obviously, that caught my attention. We are not big believers in coincidence either. We want to dig into that. We have been in contact with all three companies to understand what is going on and we do not see any indication of a cyber breach or cyber attack. The wall street journal piece is connected to people flooding their website in connection to the new york stock exchange. It does appear that there is not a cyber intrusion involved. Senator collins director, you talked about the impact on terrorism cases and your counterterrorism efforts and you said it is very difficult to quantify what the impact is. But it is my understanding that this morning, in testimony before the Judiciary Committee the foreman had said that, in the past six months alone, there had been 74 cases where Law Enforcement had been stymied because they were unable to get information from policeseized cell phones. Is that accurate . Dir. Comey i saw that in the testimony. I believe it to be accurate. Senator collins as i look at this problem as it obviously has ramifications for criminal cases as well as for counterterrorism investigations, would an option be to require the companies themselves to be able to access the information to comply with a lawful court order, not the government having the keys or backdoor in, but the company itself . Might that be a solution to this problem . Dir. Comey yes. It is possible to imagine a world where the companies figure out how to comply in a way that maximizes security of their information and complies with the judges order. Yes, that is a possible outcome. Senator collins most companies i suspect that are involved in developing this and to and encryption endtoend encryption, do you believe there are some companies that have intentionally developed this kind of system in order to thwart their ability to respond to a lawful court order . Dir. Comey i dont know with respect to the intent question. I know there are companies, once they made the decision advertised it as a solution that would be immune to a search warrant. But i dont know if the intent of the original change was to a us that result. Senator collins it does to me. If a companys advertising that information would be safe from a search warrant, that is troubling to me. That implies to me and intent to keep information away from Law Enforcement despite the issuance of a lawful court order. I think most people involved in the encryption process and developmentbased products would not want to thwart Law Enforcement, whether it is for a criminal case or terrorism. I do want to switch to access to a different kind of information. Information that suggests how much we need computer Cyber Security law. I just met with the ceo of a large bank. He relayed to me an incident where the fbi knew that his bank had been targeted for cyber attack. Here is what he told me had to happen. He said that the fbi, under current law, could not immediately go to this bank and convey information. First, they had to go to the bank regulators, the occ regional office. Then the information had to go from there to the occ in washington. From there, it had to go to the department of Homeland Security. Then the department of Homeland Security approved the fbi contacting the bank to warn them of this eminent attack. He said this all occurred over a weekend so it was difficult to reach people. There were cell phones involved, etc. That is a terrible system. We need to be able to empower the fbi in real time to be able to notify a Financial Services organization, the electric grid, the air Traffic Control System Critical infrastructure of an impending attack. Would you agree with that . Dir. Comey very much. That surprises me. The way we operate, we call them. Maybe you can privately give me the information. It is not the way i understand it works or it is supposed to work. Senator collins this incident really troubles me because by the time the information got to the proper people at the bank, it is nothing short of a miracle that the cyber attack hadnt already occurred. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator warner thank you, mr. Chairman. Let me add my comments to the good work you do and the people of the fbi do. Building on senator collinss comment, even though this is a oneoff and there is not clarity of a civil point of contact speaks volumes of the need to at least take forward legislation in a bipartisan way. I dont think that it would solve all the problems, but it would be a significant step forward. I have had some conversations with companies in the i. T. Space, in the encryption space who once they have created this entity, i think they are searching to understand the potential problems being created. Can you speak to any of that in terms of a recognition, under the guise of privacy or Better Business protections, a growing recognition within particularly the i. T. Community that this is your much a doubleedged sword and may have created a monster that is not controllable . Dir. Comey i met what i said. I think they are good people. It is not their job to worry about Public Safety so i do not think that it is something that is front and center for them. Particularly this isil threat, how real it is and everywhere, it has focused of them. So we are having reductive conversations. They do want people to die. They dont want kids to be kidnapped. These are regular folks. They are good people who want to have successful businesses and they want to protect their country. Again, i am not a naysayer. People write papers who say it is too hard. I am not buying that. I dont think that the people of Silicon Valley i do think that the people of Silicon Valley are saying lets see what we can do to protect what we have built and poet and protect our country. Senator warner a lot of i. T. Companies in virginia woke up to how strong this threat is. I am going to raise another issue. I think there has been a great deal of confusion around the opm breach. We are literally months into this now and continue to get a series of different answers in terms of numbers. I have been buried disappointed by opms reaction. Those federal employees, current and past, what action the countrys got take to protect them. Some contractors have been illequipped. But if you can perhaps give a little more clarity about the overall scope of that within the context of this public hearing there are a lot of people listening for those kinds of answers. Dir. Comey it is something that i need to approach carefully. I know the administration, opm in particular, is working and is close to a public and more detailed accounting of what we think was lost. But it is an enormous breach and a huge amount of data that is personal and sensitive to federal employees, former federal employees, people who have applied for federal employment that was available to the adversary. We have to assume that it was looked at or expelled. We are talking about millions and millions of people affected by this. The challenge of it is, im sure the adversary has my fs 86. It lists everywhere i have lived since i was 18, every foreign travel i have ever taken, all of my family, their addresses. It is not just my identity that is affected. I have siblings. I have five kids. All of that information is in there. So it is a huge deal. Senator warner we are now more than a year from the first breach and the lack of a single answer or some sense of an answer overall from the administration is troubling. Senator mccain is it true you have stated on several occasions that isis poses over time a direct threat to the United States of america . Dir. Comey yes. Senator mccain and that is the case today. Dir. Comey yes, every day they are trying to motivate people to kill people on their behalf. Senator mccain and every day, they take advantage of this use of the internet, which you have described, by going to unbreakable efforts of communicating, the more people are recruited and motivated here in the United States and other countries to attack the United States of america. Is that true . Dir. Comey yes, sir. Senator mccain so this is not a static situation. This is a growing problem as isis makes various effective use of the internet. Dir. Comey that is correct, sir. Senator mccain with all due respect to your opening comments, this is more than a conversation that is needed. It is action that is needed. Isnt it true that, over time, the ability of us to respond is diminished as the threat grows and we maintain the status quo . Dir. Comey i think thats fair. Senator mccain so we are now and i have heard my colleagues with all due respect, talking about attacks on privacy and our Constitutional Rights, etc. But it seems to me that our first obligation is the protection of our citizenry against attack, which you agree is growing. Is that a fact . Dir. Comey i agree that is our first responsibility. Senator mccain so the status quo is not acceptable if we support the assertion that our duty is to protect the lives and property of our fellow citizenry as our first priority. Do you agree with that . Dir. Comey i agree that this is something we have to figure out what to do about. Senator mccain now we have a situation where the major corporations are not cooperating and saying that, if we give the government access to their internet, that somehow it will compromise their ability to do business. Is that correct also . Dir. Comey it is a fair summary of what some have said. Senator mccain we are discussing a situation where in the u. S. Government, i. E. Law enforcement and the Intelligence Community, lack the capability to do that which they had the authority to do. Is that correct . Dir. Comey certainly with interception of devices with encryption and locked devices, yes. Senator mccain we are in an interesting situation where your obligation is to defend the country and, at the same time, you are unable to do so because these telecommunications, these organizations are saying that you cant and are devising methodology which prevents you from doing so if it is a single key use only by the user. Is that correct . Dir. Comey i would not agree that i am unable to discharge my ability to serve the country. Senator mccain are you able to have access to those systems which only have one key . Dir. Comey no, we cannot break strong encryption. Senator mccain that is a mechanism which is installed by the manufacturer to prevent you from using that there is only one key that is available to them to you. Dir. Comey correct. Senator mccain suppose that we had legislation which required two keys required to w keys one for the user and one, given a court order, required by court order, that you would be able to with substantial reason, motivation to do so, would want to go into that particular site . What is the problem with that . Dir. Comey a lot of smart people, smarter than i come us say that would have a disastrous impact on broader security across the internet, which is also part of my responsibility. Senator mccain do you believe that . Dir. Comey i am skeptical that we cannot find a solution that overcomes that harm. But a lot of serious people say, you dont realize, a russian to something and it will be a disaster for your country because it will kill if you rush into something, it will be a disaster but that causes me to at least pause. Mccain bang senator mccain but isis is rushing to kill americans. They are. Senator mccain i say with respect to my colleagues that we are facing a determined enemy who is as we speak seeking to attack america destroy america, and kill americans. It seems to me that the object should be to find a way not only to protect americans rights but to protect american lives. I hope you will devote some of your efforts, and i hope the congress will, understand the nature of this threat and to have, to say that we cant protect Constitutional Rights and at the same time protect and at the same time protect america is something that i simply wont accept. I thank you, director comey. Chairman burr senator blunt. Senator blunt thank you for being here, and the work you do. What are we really focused on here the recruitment of someone not already in the Terror Network . It seems to me that if you want to using cryptic equipment from some other country, and two of you were committed to do that that you could do that. I can get on the internet outside of the country, use the each other on devices they got somewhere else. Is there something here i dont understand . The other part of the question is, is our real target to monitor the recruiting efforts or the internal efforts of people talking in the United States among themselves about doing terrorist things . Director comey thank you, senator. The recruitment and to take place in a way that we can see it. Either on twitter, or direct messaging, which are not encrypted. Then, if it looks productive, they move them to the end and encrypted communication. Of major concern is one of the guys in syria telling these guys and what they telling them back . And what are they saying to their bodies using encrypted platforms . And the local senator blunt the international encrypted equipment is Still Available is there anything we can do that stops that from being a problem that you cant penetrate . Director comey i think the answer is if the servers are located outside the United States, we would have a heck of a time enforcing a regime giving us access. Penetrate . If there is somewhere we can impose our will on it, i just dont know that well enough. I do the one of the challenges people raise is that even if we fix our problem, yet to address it internationally. If there is somewhere we can to solve your problem, america has to get its act together. It is the big dog. Then your colleagues in western europe have to get their acts together to major the isnt a safe haven there. People might move their infrastructure somewhere else, but you will always have a small part of the problem. I think the main part to be dealt with with north america and europe focusing on it. Senator blunt as you are focusing on it . Director comey yes. U. K. And france are ahead of us. France in particular, and brits, i know the british better have legislation that requires the of the structure is in the United States in which they want to compel access. So trying to figure out how to deal with that is something we are still trying to figure out. Senator blunt the infrastructure is really the target. Even if the device is encrypted. Whats infrastructure it goes through may not accept that message . Director comey that would give you the ability to compel, to impose a requirement that the provider comply with american law. The challenges if the infrastructure is not in the United States who were you compelling . Senator blunt i think i am joining the group that suggests we have a more technical, not to diminish either your United States who were you abilities are mine, probably at a closed session, so we can ask questions without telling everyone things they dont need to know. I think we have a bigger problem than we can deal with on our own. You fight a big fight here that is easily evaded by someone wants to evade it would be of concern to me. In conjunction with others who are perhaps even ahead of us on this, i think the director makes a good point that we need to understand. Chairman burr we were up conversing already about how to put together another hearing, if not a series of hearings, to get us deeper into better understanding along with the put together another hearing director what our options might be as we proceed forward. This is something of recommend to all the members that they become educated in on a periodic basis. This is not the end of technological advancements. Therefore, it is not the last challenge we will face. Senator lankford . Senator lankford it is just the latest. Our appreciation for what they did for the nation. We do appreciate their work very much. You have a terrific team. The challenge we face on this is not only on the technology side, it is also the benefit that is gained from this. I would tell you the folks at opm would be glad to talk about encryption. If it kept the data in a more secure area. We are benefiting from encryption that is been invented. Whatever like to talk about is that we need to have a balance in the conversation because we absolutely need include the technology because we are very exposed in finding that all the ways in our information is exposed. We need that to continue to advance on one side, but a basic Law Enforcement we have had a different ability. Talk to me but some legal frameworks year. If someone goes on social media and their child pornography, that is a criminal issue. Talk to me about the legal frameworks. There is a step before this that is the recruiting. That is recruiting based on people that actually believe that we do which is not the problem but will also act out and kill people. Director comey if someone is on social media talking about the possibility or offering and the criminal activity which includes terrorism, that is predicate for an investigation and us using our lawful tools to find out what is going on there. Senator lankford im really talking about the step before that. That social media side. What does that trigger . Does that begin investigation . You try to track this down. That social media side. They are encouraging a criminal act on american soil. Director comey they are broadcasting out this poison through twitter. Their 21,000 followers in english. They will have twitter following communications, then that may be direct messaging, all of which with lawful process we can get access to and evaluate. If it looks like someone if through twitter. The person appears to be serious, they will then say moved to this mobile messaging senator lankford the social media platforms, they still see no issue once it is clearly known that this is an illegal activity . Is their response to say you cant do that on our platform . Or are they just open to everything . Director comey i misunderstood the question, sorry. There being quite good about this. It is gotten increasingly good over the last year. Twitter does not want people engaging in criminal activity of any sort on their social media platform. Their big particularly aggressive at shutting down isil related sites. Isil threatened to kill their ceo which help them understand the threat than a better way. There be quite good about that. Senator lankford you alluded twice now to the u. K. And france that are ahead of us in this. You said they are discussing can you give us greater details to what they are discussing . It is a rare moment for europe to be ahead of us of anything. Help me understand what you mean. Director comey i dont want to swell the brits heads. They have passed legislation that imposes Data Retention requirements on communications providers. It also imposes Access Requirements that the providers must comply with lawful borders. They are ahead of us in that their past a legislative package that addresses impart what were talking about here. But they have to figure out how will that work when all the providers are in the United States . How will they enforce the legislation if they want data from someone was located in california . How will they make that a reality . Senator lankford thank you, i feel better. The top question is this whole thing has gotten the point with the most serious problem are these lone wolf people who are either inspired or directed from out of their country to do something. The most recent example is what happened in tunisia just last week. Without i would like to give an opportunity to talk to the American People how this fits into your priorities, and what youre doing about this and matters that are important. Director comey isil is reaching into the United States trying to reach troubled souls and increasingly kids to either come to the caliphate or kill where they are. This actually works. It works to sell shoes, it works to motivate souls to do bad things. We are now reaping the results of a yearlong media push. That is why is he so many arrests we are to this stopping people. This is going on all over the place. I want the American People to know about it because it is an important thing. We also need their help. In a most every case someone saw something. Because of the weird that did not look right. Saw something. Because of the weird that did not look right. We have to get folks to tell us. If it is just a bad day, there wont be a problem. We investigated secret. We have to get people to say that guy doesnt seem right. We need the help because the spans all 50 states. If they see something that seems out of place, just say something. You can tell any Deputy Sheriff in the United States. That information will get within minutes to the right people. Senator risch thank you for that. I appreciate what you do and what your organization does. We all know you have to be right every day 100 of the time. You are doing a good job. Chairman burr will take just a few more questions. With a series of five stacked votes. I want to wrap a lot of things that you talked about because people of asked individual pieces of this question on going dark. Time. Is your greatest concern finding the balance between what we Ask Phone Companies or Service Providers or finding the balance between what we Ask Phone Companies or Service Providers or manufacturers to do to their products or systems, and where the breakpoint is before they become a Foreign Company versus a domestic company. I would take from what your folks said to you when you get to the point that you chase them out of the country you just major problem much worse. Can you help us dissect that . Director comey yes. The reason this is the hardest problem ive seen in my career is that we have important Public Safety issues be of talk about. I think everyone agrees they are implicated by the universal strong encryption. With innovation which is unbelievably important. We have security. I care a lot about Cyber Security. I love strong encryption. How do we take those things we care about innovation, and jobs, and security for people, how do we maximize them all . As i said, some smart people say if you do anything it will destroy the internet or chase of the business overseas. I do think we have to engage on a technical solution, and we need to think about an International Aspect of this. They can agree upon a framework. Sometimes you will say to me if we do this for you we have do it for china. My response is china want you to do for me, show probable cause, get a written order that would be great for the chinese people. I dont think china want you to do it i wanted to do. I am less worried about that but i am worried about chasing businesses to other parts of the western world. I think we have to be thoughtful about it. Chairman burr we certainly get that part and will follow that up with some tech company questions. Before i turned to the vicechairman, i want to give you one opportunity, if theres of the you want to share with the American People that you have not already talked about as it relates to the bureau. I want to give you the opportunity to do that about your folks at the bureau and what it does and why the American People should care whether you are successful. Director comey we work for the American People. I hope a lot of folks know people in the bureau. We use the tools you gave us. I am here not to scare the American People what to say i have a problem, i need help fixing it so that i can continue to do my job. Make no mistake, the folks that work for me was say added every single day around the clock. If this goes away, we will do our absolute best. We think it would be irresponsible to not tell the challenges that we face. My folks, on tv sometimes we look great, sometimes good sometimes not. We are ordinary people were chosen to live a different kind of life. We love this work. We love working for you. We are here to give you a status report on how it is going given the tools are given us. Senator feinstein this committee passed its intelligence authorization bill unto 24th. In that bill we put a provision that would require Technology Companies to tell the appropriate authorities. This is modeled after an existing law which requires Technology Companies to notify authorities about cases of child pornography. It does not require companies to monitor any user subscriber or customer. It is the beginning of saying, look, you have a responsibility, too. What you think of that . Director comey it is an interesting idea. I have heard about it. I havent studied it. It is an interesting idea. I do find them pretty good at telling us what they see. Senator feinstein we do that for child pornography. Dont do think we should do that for possible terrorist acts . Director comey maybe. I would want to hear the other side. Senator feinstein oh, dear. Director comey i want to make sure im not missing something. I am dumb enough when i know something. Senator feinstein ok. One last question. If the United States were to require our company doing business here to ensure government access to encrypted communications, which you expect that foreign governments would create the same requirements for Companies Operating there . Director comey i think they might. Senator wyden i think that would clearly be the outcome. I think it would make businesses more vulnerable. I want to leave you with one last thought. I have been on this committee for 14 years. Where this is headed is towards proposals for some kind of stockpile of Encryption Keys. I think it would make businesses more vulnerable. Where senators will want to go. I get the sense that is where this is going. There should be a stockpile for the government to access. I wanted to know that i willing to work with you on ideas, but i think this proposal is a i dont think were fleshed out bigtime loser. On security grounds, for reasons ive mentioned, it is a retreat on privacy, and i think it will do great damage to our cuttingedge Digital Companies that have jobs and take good wages. I hope we will not go there. And wanted to know my sense having listened to a couple of hours of this where i think this is headed. I think it is the wrong way to proceed. Chairman burr senator heinrich. Senator heinrich police thank all of your personnel, not just for their efforts in recent weeks but the efforts to go on song year in and year out. I want to thank you in particular for the amount of humility that youve shown today. I think it is really helpful to wrap our heads around how we should proceed on this. I think the most dangerous thing is to jump to a solution that turns out to be the wrong solution. I have some ideas that i wont share in open session, that i will share with you here about places we should be investing in right now to address some of these concerns. I will just reiterate, i think we would making a mistake if we immediately jumped forward and pass a law tomorrow the prohibited strong encryption. Effectively what we did under that scenario, or what i would fear, is it the terrorist would simply download an app from pakistan or somewhere else that would allow them to get around this scenario. It would put our american data at risk while protecting theirs. I think we need to think through all of that to make sure we are getting at the people who are causing the problem and not building in weakness into the protection of our own data. Whether the government, or just individuals that expect their data, all the things we use online to remain private. With that, once again, i would ask you to share any thoughts and thank you for realizing that there will be a lot of questions and realizing that we will not have all the answers immediately. We should not jump to answers before we completely understand the problem. Director comey thank you, senator. I agree that something has to be approached carefully. I think it is the hardest problem i have seen the government. The stakes are very high. We care about the same things whether from industry or government. That is one of the great things about this country. We do hard stuff. Especially when the whole effort is around shared values. Senator heinrich i believe you with one last thought. We heard a lot about the amazing innovations of Silicon Valley. I would tend to agree, incredible stuff comes out of their. As we seek a solution, we should not forget the incredible innovations that come out of our laboratories. Some of those solutions may make even better sense in this scenario. Chairman burr i would think less of you if he did not get the plugin there. I wont speak for the vicechairman, but i have been frustrated that nobody in the ministration has come up to say here is what we think we need. We have been talking about going dark for some time. I think you deserve a tremendous amount of credit for your restraint. I dont know that we know the answer yet, therefore we are not laying proposals on the table. We arent saying here is a solution we think might work. We, when we know we have one we will work. I havent heard anybody talk about thousands of keys until today. Im sure there some that sit at home tonight and are concerned that maybe that is the choice we will make. If it was that easy a think we would already have a solution proposed. We would be hashing it out with our members. The fact is we know that will not meet the test of getting legislation through congress, or signed into law. I think we are just as challenges you are about what the solution is. We want to be part of the solution. I think it is safe to say that we will probably have some hearings. Maybe closed, maybe open, with ceos of tech companies. Not with the belief that we will come up with a solution but we will be knowledgeable enough as a good on that road together to write legislation. Both sides are confident of where we are going. Where fairly confident that it will be beneficial to the end goal which is defending the American People. Let the just add one note, when i left prior to the fourth after doing this for 15 years, i was convinced that we would have an incident before he came back this monday. It did not happen. I am convinced it did not happen because the bureau and Intelligence Community work like it was designed to work. You asked your folks to go on a different schedule. They did, and run the tempo for weeks. The fact is we were able to thwart a lot of things early. Maybe things that might have happened. Your folks deserve a tremendous amount of credit. The entire agency does. We know this is not going away with the fourth of july, ramadan stays vibrant for a few more weeks. The will be another national holiday. We also have to recognize the fact that we have some areas that we will be making decisions without the information we have had in the past because the communication tools that these folk are using. We want to be able to address this as quickly as we can so that they can return to as robust an and information sharing between intelligence and Law Enforcement to let your folks feel confident they can do what they are asked to do. We just hope were putting on a good enough face on saturday that were scaring the enemy. You deserve a tremendous amount of credit. The bureau has defended the American People. For that, give our regards to all of the bureau. With that, thank you for being here. Sorry you had to pull a doubleheader here today. Hopefully your achilles is still there. Were adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2015] captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption contents and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org it is a great honor for me to be able to address the democratic forme in europe. It is an honor to address the representives of the people of europe at a crucial time for my own country of greece and indeed a crucial time for the euro zone and the European Union as a whole. Only a few days after the resounding verdict of the greek people, after the agreement was reached to give the floor directly to ask the greek people directly for their views and to be an active part of the negotiations affecting their own future. A few days after this verdict we have been given a mandate to redouble our efforts in order to get a socially just and economically sustainable solution to the greek problem without repeating the mistakes of the past which affect the Greek Economy. To a period of never ending and impact of austerity which trapped our economy in a recessionary vicious circle. The response by the greek people at the time when there was such pressures with the banks closing with the campaigns and the media terror criesing them into feeling that no end to talks with europe, an end to negotiations with europe. I think they showed they stood up and were counted. This was a voice of democracy. We have to listen to what they said. As i was saying. This was a courageous choice by the greek people and this is not a decision of breaking off negotiations with europe. It is one of going back instead of turn to the defending principles of unification at the start of democracy and of solidarity going back to Mutual Respect and going back to equality. It is a Crystal Clear message. This is a Crystal Clear message that europe, our common european and edfiss, European Union, will either be democratic or it will have immense difficulties in surviving under the current circumstances. The ongoing negotiations between the greek government and the congress to reconfirm the dual forms of respect in europe both for the grand rules of the European Union and also full respect for the democratic choice of our peoples. My government i myself personally and our government 51 2 months ago however, the bailout programs, the programs have been in force for the past 51 2 years and i fully asslume this responsibility for what has happened in the course of these 51 2 months. However, i think that we must know if we are being sincere, we must recognize that the basic responsibility for the impasse that the Greek Economy currently finds itself in and the impass which europe overall dont extend just 51 2 months. They extend 51 2 years. Then quite apart from the crisis we will continue with our reform undertaken. But lets not forget the fact that for the past 5 years the greek people have made a tremendous effort for adjustment, a very harsh and difficult process of adjustment. But this has exhausted the resilience and the patience of the greek people. And this is not just something which has been confined to grease. Other countries, we respect the sacrifices and efts they made and the difficult decisions governments in other countries have taken as well. In many other countries ause steer programs have been put into effect. However, nowhere have those programs been so harsh and long lasting as in greece. It is no exaggeration to say that my country over the past five years has been transformed into a laboratory. However, this experiment, all of us have to accept has not been a success. Over the years we have seen sky rocketing of poverty unemployment has soared. Social margelization has increased, as has the public debt. Which is now 180 of g. D. P. And has increased, as today the majority of the greek people, quite apart from our own assessment, this is the simple part we have to face and accept the greek people feel they have no choice other than to demand that they be given a way out of this impasse. They have expressed this in the most directic way possible and we have to implement that decision. We are we demanned we are with our neighbors but one which gives us a sign that we are exciting with the crisis which will demonstrate to us that there is light at the end of the tunnel. An agreement which will bring about the credible and necessary reforms. That is clearly necessary. But we have to recognize that over the past 51 2 years the problems have been in place which have been abundant on what pensioners can take, what employers can put up with, what they can stand. And ordinary citizens. We need policies of redistribution of unnecessary sh that are necessary for the middle class, for the working class, and we must have a basis on which we can proceed in a sustainable development. The proposal we have made to our partners are ones which involve credible reforms with an acceptable degree which does not bring recessionable effects with it. We need to ensure the medium term of our country with development and growth programs because we have to put on the table an agenda for brotesdz. Because otherwise there is no way we are going to exit from this crisis. The prime objective needs to be to come back bring back employment and entrepreneurship. Our proposal contains the demands for an immediate undertaking that we will see genuine dialogue and negotiation in order to get an answer to the question about sustainability of public debt. We cannot have any taboo subjects. We must be able to look reality in the face and find solutions to the real problems however difficult those solutions may be in practice. Our proposal has been submitted is one which meets those requirements. At the summit which we had yesterday of the euro zone. Today we are working with the supports arrangements in the next two or three days we have undertaken to bring forward concrete proposals in detail. And confident in the next few days we will be able to meet the obligations of those crucial times in the best interest of greece and also the euro zone. Can i say this must not be economic. It is also in the best interests politically of the European Union. Let me be Crystal Clear in this area. The proposals by the greek government for the funding of its obligations and the restruct trg of its debt are not designed to provide an extra burden for europe tean taxpayers. The money which has been affordrd to greece never trickled down to the greek people. This is money which was given in order to save the greek and european banks but they never trickled down to the ordinary greek men and women. And in addition, starting if august of 2014 we have got to disperse and entraven under the bailout which continues until the 30th of june and repayment of 7. 2 billion and it was not our government which was in power from august of 2014 until 2015. The fact is that the program has not been implemented. The program was not implemented then not because at the time there was some geological circumstances we currently have. It was because the program then and the program now did not have social acceptance in order it is not sufficient for it to be right. It has got to have the public support and acceptance. Ladies and gentlemen members, over the same period greece has been involved in negotiations because of that 7. 2 billion in disbursements. We also had and were under an obligation to repay to the same institutions which provide it had finance repayments of 17. 5 billion euros. And that was money which was taken from the resources of the greek people. Despite all that i have said, i am not one of those politicians who claim that those responsible for the loss of greece are the wicked foreigners. Greece has got to bankruptcy because for many, many years governments the gots of greece have been creating a government then strengthened and enhanced corruption. They have created and nurtrd a nexus between political and economic power. They have allowed tax evasion to run and it is not right. In accordance with the figures 10 of greece currently have 10 of the wealth and 10 of ause territory they have not carried their share of the pressure. This is major injustice flt and the programs, the bailout programs and the programs have not made it better on the contrary they have made things worse. They were supposed to bring about rereforms but these have not improved the tax collecting mechanisms which collapsed under the excessive power of the officials. None of the rea forms have helped when it comes to the nexus between the political establishment, the olegarks and the banks in that threesided ring. None of the reforms have improved the functioning and the efficiency of the mechanisms of state which has now become enured to working with the selfist and vested interests rather than the common good. These proposals have not been put on the table. Our proposals they are based on genuine reforms to change the face of greece. These are reforms of a regime did not want to put in place. They did not want these changes to take place in greece. That was not the purpose of the bailouts. Effectively tackling the olegarky and the cartel of vested interests we have now got to turn the page of that. The way that National Finances and unemployment and indeed the labor market are covered we must now get a handle on development in those areas. We must be able to implement the priorities of our government and get a handle on those and those priorities are ones we are going to look at with our partners. Today we come with a strong mandate from the greek people and we are determined not to have a clash with europe but to tackle head on the establishments in our country and to change the mindset which has taken us and taken the euro zone down. Ladies and gentlemen europe finds itself at a crucial crossroads. The greek our country and to change the mindset which has taken us and taken the euro zone crisis is only a manifestation of the inability of the euro zone to find a lasting solution to the selffueling debt crisis. And what we now need is a european this is not exclusively a greek problem this is a european problem. And european problems require european solutions. European history is a history of conflict but conflict leading to compromise. And it is also a history of convergence and enlargements. It is a history of unity and not divisions. And this is why we talk about a united europe of and that is not not allow it to become a devicive europe. That is time we are told to produce effective and fair compromise which will voice avoid a break in negotiations. This is in line with the traditions of European Union. All of us have taken the measure of the situation. I believe that together we can right rise to this historical challenge. Thank you very much. [applause] thank you very much. Thank you. Now, we move on. Welcome to the European Parliament. And before i address the situation in greece, i have a request to the council. I believe that the European Parliament also should be involved in the deliberations of the European Council in the presence of our president. Affecting the case in the past. I am not talking about Economic Policy and budget figures today. Today i am going to talk about european culture. Decency partnership and the way we deal with each other as friends. About european culture. Decency partnership and the way we the government these things in recent weeks. The defense minister said there would likely be an unleashing of migrants to the rest of europe if settlements were not made and we were told that i would believe that if the minister of greece comes to us he should apologize. Unfortunately he has passed over them in silence. Let us discuss the liability in confidence of the european country. In february 2015 you guaranteed that greece would present a reformed program. Up until now there are no specific proposals from greece. But from the basis of negotiations and indeed yesterday people were meeting without a basis for such negotiation. You are destroying confidence in europe. You are losing confidence in the rest of europe. Dignity means strength honesty, and the government has said to degree people as said to the greek people that the banks are closing. The ecb is ratcheting up the pressure. The banks are open on tuesday, it is closed it is wednesday. You are not telling your people the truth. And that is not dignified politics. I would like to continue to discuss the indignity involved in terms of who your friends are. Look around this chamber. You will see to the far left and the far right you have applause. Mr. Tsipras i think fidel castro wrote you a letter of congratulations on your magnificent triumph. It seems you are surrounding yourself with the wrong friends. Please continue. May i say coming else about the dignity of others in europe. If you do not like the people, it is not extraneous Financial Institutions who will pay for this. Is going to be stained with 24 billion euros, it will be poland and france it seems to me we must look at those peoples dignity, people another eu countries. Mr. President , i would also like to bring up the principal the concept is in dire straits. You also know what the situation is of the people in bulgaria. How can you tell work area in terms of solidarity, how can you tell the people in bulgaria in terms of solidarity, that five eu countries, the standard is living lower than greece. I would like to add that european culture, people on this continent need hope. They need hope in the future. Latvia, the situation yesterday. In 2009, they were facing an economic catastrophe. But the parties there did not resort to a referendum. They sorted out their budgets, their fiscal situation. They have faith in the future and in their people. It seems to me you are not standing for hope. In your approach. You are not concert to democracy. One moment please. One moment please, mr. President. If you try to shout him down, he is unable to use his time effectively. If it is quiet, he will be able to use his speaking time. On democracy, democracy involves people sitting and listening. They all know that. Mr. Weber, you have the floor once more. Mr. Weber im grateful for the applause. It shows the extremists here trying to destroy europe. Alexis tsipras is standing here as a representative of greek democracy, saying he carried out a referendum of vote. Is he a socialist . He is also thinking about organizing referendum, because the slovakians are fed up with shelling out for the greeks. There are sufficient National Perspectives in europe. Europe is not the sum, it is compromise. Sadly, you have departed from that path. Mr. President , please conclude. I would say that alexis tsipras, with respect to being presented of this country, we are at loggerheads with you. You engage in provocation. We engage in compromise. You are looking at failure, we are looking at success. You do not like europe, we love europe. And i hope you will be able to come up with a program, finally. Thank you