cohen van help today, pick can help you get started with your idea called now 807 >> 100020 and good evening, thanks for joining us. >> it went from early this morning late into the evening and adjust wrapped up first the defense and the prosecution, the first criminal trial ever of a former president and having their final say, jurors will get the case. >> tamara and hadn't prosecutor joshua steinglass until moments go walking them step by step by step through the former president's hush money payment to stormy daniels shortly before the 2016 election. >> and the alleged scheme to hide it from voters. now, he emphasized how much of the case in his telling did not rely solely on the testimony of former fixer, michael cohen, who's faults. he acknowledged saying, quote we didn't pick him up. the witness store. as for defense attorney todd blanche, he accused cohen of lying to the jury, calling him the mvp of liars and the gloat which he said stands for greatest liar of all time. he wrapped up by listing ten justifications for reasonable doubt. the final one being michael cohen blanche also earned a scolding from the judge for saying, quote, you cannot send somebody to prison unquote based on cohen's word, judges make that decision not juries. the judge will instruct jurors on the relevant points of law tomorrow afterwards, the former president is fate will be in their hands as for him he wanted to today complaining online, the prosecution gets the last it's worth complaining during a break this afternoon that the prosecution's closing arguments were, boring when see if he'll have anything to say tonight with us is new york criminal defense attorney arthur aidala, cnn legal analyst, norm eisen, cnn news night. abby phillip, the sources, kaitlan collins, all three were in the court also see didn't senior legal analyst elie honig and cnn's caroll first canal outside the courthouse in lower manhattan carolyn, start with you. what was the mood like in these historic and lengthy, lengthy closing arguments? >> the marathon of closing arguments the jury's attention was wrapped throughout this day. they had been inside that coordinate for more than ten hours listening, what almost seems like could have been yesterday to donald trump's team give their closing arguments, and then the prosecutor, joshua steinglass, adjust finishing moments ago, his closing arguments was lasted almost five hours, four hours, and 41 minutes they were focused on both of the attorneys as they spoke. i've looked at them multiple times and they were all looking directly at the lawyer, looking down at the monitors in front of them when evidence was put up on the screen, the lawyers, both of them went through excerpts of transcripts some of these text messages, the phone logs, all to remind the jury in the prosecution's case that they do have evidence that there is evidenced beyond michael cohen and that they should find donald trump guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. and then in the defense's case, trying to poke holes in the testimony of cohen, and in some of the other evidence that they have suggested saying that if this was really a big conspiracy, why wasn't david pecker involved in the ultimate payment to stormy daniels so a lot of focus and attention by the jury today, donald trump for his part, had actually turned his chair about 90 degrees at one point to watch his lawyer give the closings and watch the jury as they were taking all of this in during the prosecution's closing arguments, trump was facing forward. he didn't really seem to be paying much attention to that. occasionally leaning into look at the monitor himself about some of the emails and text messages that were put up. but along they day that really tested the patients people in there. but the jury did seem to be wrapped the sep judge check with them several times to see if they wanted to keep going. and at one point, he asked them publicly in front of us not having an officer du it behind the scenes and the juror nodded their heads in agreement that they wanted to stay. but this now finally coming to an end. just a few moments ago, anderson norm, you were there both for the morning session in the afternoon session, what jumped out at you? what were the high highs, low, lows? >> well, it was a long day i thought the jury hung in there. the first thing you look for is the jury continuing to pay attention and they did it was fascinating to me, the strategy he of the defense and the prosecution, anderson, because they were opposite strategies. the defense honed in on the three critical issues in this case and said you can't prove these 34 records were false you can't prove trump intended to defraud with these false records that he knew they were not income, that they were reimbursements. and you can't show that he was covering up an election conspiracy so they used kind of an inductive approach. they organize the evidence. todd blanche, by those three issues the prosecution to be exact opposite a chronological or a deductive approach review, it felt like they reviewed all 200 plus exhibits that they can put into evidence this case. at times, it was painful. that's when we were watching the jury as kara said, de hung in, but i thought that was necessary. don't as a prosecutor, don't leave anything on the table if the judge will give you the time, if the jury says, i'll stay till 8:00, argue till seven, 7509, and the weight the overwhelming weight of the evidence that was the prosecution approach. >> i mean, it was striking how different the two closing arguments were because michael cohen loomed over both of them, but in very different ways, todd blanche was trying to basically eviscerate michael cohen and any credibility he had with these jurors repeatedly saying he lied to you and trying to make get personal almost for them. josh steinglass, the prosecutor, took a very different approach and he kind of had this very conversational style. he was almost incredulous at some of the arguments that todd blanche had made. he made no hesitation and turning back to point and todd blanche's direction or pointed donald trump, who almost never referred to as donald trump pages referred to him as the defendant. the defendant. the defendant repeatedly, and he was kind of scuffing almost what todd blanche had said in his closing arguments and he would say, i'll get back to that ridiculous point later or they really want you to believe this, trying to create this idea that whatever todd blanche had said in his closing argument was just not believable for whether that's the trump motorcade leaving, which is notable because trump didn't speak leaving court, which he normally does. but the other thing that they tried to do with michael cohen that stood out to me because i was in there this afternoon as he was in his lengthy closing arguments for the prosecution, as he was saying, this isn't all on michael cohen, the documents that we have here which he referred to because the smoking gun in this case, which is the one that has the math jotted down on how they would pay michael cohen back didn't come from michael cohen. it came from jeff mcconney and trump organization employee who as the prosecution noted, has no ax to grind with donald trump. >> i did think just reflecting back on the morning session where i was in the court the trump team. they did present some things that were just beyond belief. i mean, the idea that no one in trump's orbit thought that the national enquirer running negative stories are positive stories about trump would influence the election in any way beyond belief, those the whole point that of vector that was the whole point of the meeting the other donald trump just as a person would not believe that. so look, the good news for the defense is that they don't have to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. it's not on them to do that, but it did make me wonder some of those moments where maybe even some cases they were twisting the evidence in ways that did not actually comport with what the evidence actually was. in ways that they asserted things like, for example, they call the access hollywood moment. basically nothing burger in the campaign. again a ridiculous assertion if you were, you were there, you were a human being and od united states of america, when it occurred those moments, i think cut against their credibility in some crude we shall ways will it make or break this case? i don't know what part of the argument that they were trying to make to the jury is that michael cohen cannot be believed. michael cohen is the person who is the serial liar, the fabulous and yet i think the prosecution tried to make this point when they got their turn and closing statements, you cannot also make statements that are beyond belief and then have the jury want to believe you and disregard everything that michael cohen, one here for worth and i an lea a second. but for those of you who are in the courtroom, it's different when you're inside versus what we on the outside in the morning, we're reading from our folks inside todd blanche's his closing statement felt meandering when you're just reading the text on the outside. we did it play meandering in the room and i'm wondering for the prosecution's closing, did it feel like five hours? >> it felt like more than five hours i'm very restless. person, but i thought it was the right thing to do for them to use all that time. blanche is a meander. he is not a linear person. we saw this in his cross-examination of michael cohen, was that strategy? here's just lack of experience. and it was a strategy because he wanted to hone in on all the places where there can be reasonable doubt in the order. he thought of the difficulty of bruce. he wanted to go from stronger, less strong, two weak as he hit them with the best shot but it did meander at times. the jury does not. i think the jury does not like todd blanche. i think they prefer mo beauvais. they like susan necheles better. i don't think they're fond of your leg by the way, this jury this is a jury that does not show a lot. >> so that tells me you have been analyzing them. >> smile several times as steinglass was making his, which it did go on at length and there were some dry moments where he was going through the documents, but he also would pepper in these quotes, like the one where he said donald trump didn't pay a porn star or pay a lawyer, but he was paying a porn star funneling money through an attorney when he was talking about he didn't go to the witness store to get michael cohen. he was making the point, this is who donald trump chose to surround himself with. so it was really long, but he had these little leinz i saw some of the jurors smiling at some of steinglass says leinz, which is a big deal because they don't have expressions typically only are there lots here for i i'm definitely going to defer to the people who are in the room because there's no replacement for that. i mean, i'm looking at it like our viewers watching the each individual update come up ordinarily, i would think a five-hour closing is outrageous. it goes against everything i was taught goes against everything i've ever done. i never gave a closing anywhere near five hours. you lose the jury. it's a terrible idea, but hearing norm say that the jury, first of all, they were asked, do you want to stay and indicated yes. and that they continued to pay attention. that makes a difference for me if you still have their attention, i don't think it's disastrous to do this. i agree based on what we were able to see, i thought todd blanche's closing did meander. i don't think meanderings a strategy. i think it's a fault. you can attack a prosecution case aggressively and effectively in a direct and compelling way. and to me, the whole argument about this had nothing to do with the campaign from six weeks ago in this case started struck me as a stretch. and i think it remains a stretch now, under the evidence, i would have dropped that, honestly, the whole part about you don't concede. it explains let's just just give it the back of the hand. stormy daniels denied this ever happened right? hope hicks told you it was about the family focused on the documents and connecting trump to the documents. that's where the defense lies. that's where i think blanche i just better moments. >> it had a feel of throwing everything at the wall that might stick. >> okay. so i'm going to take a page out of ellie's book can i'm going to defer to the people in the courtroom, but i'm sitting here with three national anchors and all three of you know, it's all about editing right? you, you could go on, i could give you guys all right we're going to talk for three hours. you'll figure out something to say. it's all about editing it down and you'll ellie talked about his training. i was blessed to be trained in the brooklyn da's office i remember angela morella. i thought i gave a great summation. he's like shut up, shut up, arthur enough. you're going on and on. but i was 26 years old. i was 27 years old, i was 28 years old. so i learned and it's honestly it's a similar skill set on television. you can go on and on, you get this, you get 30 seconds, 15, and then you've got to count down. it's the same think with a jury. you have to be like, okay, there's a limited amount of time. i get that they're they're looking at them just because they are looking at them. you don't know where their brain is that well, that was a really good burger. i had a memorial day like you don't know where they're thinking and where their lapsing in and out. but abby, when you talk about losing credibility to me, that's the most important part. it's one thing for a jury not to like the lawyer, not to like have cooled by out with the lawyer, but it's another thing to not believe him or think he or she is trying to sell them a bill of goods that just doesn't make any sense. and the example you use, i do agree with saying that that it says hollywood thing was nothing. i mean, i know that summer day sitting at home, it was not a bit of nothing. it was a big deal. >> yeah. i mean, there were so many moments like that they described they were trying to poke holes in the recording of donald trump. fair enough. >> but the way that they tried to poke holes in it, i thought also really stretched credibility suggesting that trump didn't say things that you could hear him saying on the call, even describing how the call ended inaccurately by saying that michael cohen, you couldn't hear michael cohen picking up the other call that's not at all what happened. >> he was recording on his phone, received an incoming call which ended the recording. and so to look if you have an iphone you know how that goes and misrepresenting that to the jury, i think does not hurt care. i mean the court the other thing that one of the things he misrepresented was implying that well, the national enquirer doesn't matter because it's circulation was 350,000 at this time. >> when in truth the impact of the national enquirer story can be far beyond the number of actual subscribers who pay money to read the national enquirer or look at it even on the checkout stand, it has a ripple effect to other people do reporting based often yeah. >> i mean, one of the things that blanche had said was that the national enquirer had such a low subscriber, a compared to the new york times. but then on closing arguments by the prosecution they said that that was kind of absurd, that everybody who's in a supermarket who checks out at the register is going to walk past and see the headlines of the national enquirer. remember david pecker had testified that he didn't want to get involved with the story for me, daniels deal because he didn't want to do a story about a porn star because of these record, because his tabloid is on the supermarket shelves and that some of these supermarkets wouldn't want to see that. so certainly prosecution came back at that point by saying that even though this circulation may be lower than that of the new york times, it doesn't mean that the number of eyeballs that aren't happiness when everyone is checking out at the grocery store, they're still going to see that. they tried to correct that part of it. and yeah, it's true if the national enquirer does have a true story then that would be something that other national organizations would follow and try to match. >> there was also a testimony during the trial that david pecker didn't even care what was inside the pages of the national enquirer. all he cared about was the front cover because the impact of that checkout line and just people seeing that front cover that for him was such a huge priority. kara scannell. thank you. you got to take a quick break. john berman joins us. he's been going through the transcripts of tonight's extended closing arguments. we'll talk about what could stand out for the jury. and later, journalist ronan farrow joins as soon as reporting on catch and kill gave us such an early and clear window into the world of jurors have been shown in this trial a heart attack, do they have life insurance? >> no. >> but we have life insurance john, i'm trying to find something we can afford fortunately, it only a few minutes, select poke down john, a $500,000 policy for only $29 a month and his wife and a $500,000 policy for only $21 a month go to select quote.com now and get the insurance your family meets at a price you can afford. select quote, we shop you save over 13 million americans were affected by identity theft in 2022. and the threats go way beyond just credit card fraud. today's identity thieves can use your information in ways that are easy to miss by just monitoring accounts and credit like opening loans, transferring home titles, even committing crimes. >> so when got my social security number made a driver's license 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five hours worth tomorrow morning after hearing instructions from the judge jurors will have the case and the former president's fate will be in their hands joining us. cnn's john berman has been going through the trial transcripts for us tonight. we mentioned this moment when judge merchan scolded trump's attorney todd blanche, how did that play on? >> and he came right at the end of todd blanche is summation where he was once again saying that michael cohen is a liar. >> you can't convict just based on michael cohen when todd blanche said cohen came in here, he raised his right hand and he lie to each of you. repeatedly? repeatedly. you can cannot you cannot send somebody to prison. you cannot convict somebody. josh steinglass, the prosecutor says objection, judge masan says sustained. blanche then goes on. you cannot convict some somebody based upon words of michael cohen. now, that was at the very end of the summation, the jury then left the room. they want on their lunch break, and there was a conference here in the judge scolded todd blanche for what he said here. he said, i'm going to give a curative instruction. i think that saying that was outrageous, mr. blanche, please have a seat for when who has been a prosecutor as long as you have ended defense attorney, as long as you have you know that making a comment like that is highly inappropriate, it's simply not allowed, period. it's hard for me to imagine how that was accidental in any way. >> it's also interesting that as soon as steinglass said objection and it was sustained todd blanche didn't need instruction about what the objection was about. he knew instantly what he had said was inappropriate. right. i mean, because he corrected himself by just taking out the prison party. i like to push the envelope in summation, but that's you can't say jail. you just you just can't say j. you can say you use your common sense. people don't tell you to check, leave your common sense outside. we all know what happens at the end of a trial. that's enough for you to decide this up from the judge, but you can't eat if he can't say jail, you didn't push the envelope. he tore the envelope and ripped it into little pieces. >> zhao zhao are sure this saturday yeah. >> no, that's a red line. you do not to the arteries why that is a read lock as it is so powerfully prejudicial for. >> the jury, but it's all of them in sentencing. that is the role of the judge will put telling them that you potentially you're sending the form of prison united states should present. that's prejudicial. there's three jobs. the job of the jury is to weigh the facts. the job of the judge is to instruct them on the loss so they can apply the law to the facts and then depending on the verdict, it comes back to the judge to sentence. but in defense of todd, i will say it seemed to me as soon as he said it, he knew he'd gone too far. he kind of stopped himself. it was like a little hiccup. i think he just got carried away in the moment and it was not an intentional mistake. he slept but he was so hard on michael cohen for his mistake when he did he did night now that is not going to get unwrung. >> okay. i'm sorry, but it's not going to get unwrung because it's always been in the atmosphere. in this case. ultimately, this jury is they're not stupid people. they understand that this case is about finding themselves in trump tower, a former president donald trump. guilty of a felony, which would involve some kind of punishment. and i think that they know that todd blanche evoked it and put it back on the table. i don't think that there's anything that can be done to take that out of their mind. >> i have a hard time. i have a hard time believing that it was inadvertent. i know. no, it's trying to extend the benefit of the doubt and i'll tell you why. at the southern district of new york prosecutor's office word todd used to work where i used to work. we're alvin bragg, his work we were paranoid about exactly that happening. >> you did not want to defend slur whoops, slipping in. if you convict, he'll go to jail or go to jail for decades, or you'll separate him from his family until his kids are full-grown. and i was so paranoid about it. i would say the judges right before closing, judge obviously they're not going to be mentioning the potential of prison here. judge, would always look at the defense like you're not doing that right? defense, are we got of course not. that is that was a serious overstep by todd blanche's lucky. it was only a curative and john will give it to you because steinglass acted out a conversation between cohen trump, and keeps your live bodyguard because this was that devastating moment when michael cohen was on the stand. todd blanche revealed are got pointed out that there was a 14-year-old had been harassing michael cohen on the phone and cohen had called schiller or texted schiller about what can i do about this 14 year-old initially, cohen hit testified that that phone call for which there is a record, that that phone call was with trump to tell him that the payment to stormy daniel's was going through. you were there for the testimony todd blanche elicited that it looks like there was a phone call at exactly that time with quiche earlier where they talked about this 14 year-old boy and then cohen on the stand basically ended up saying, well, maybe i talked about both things. so josh steinglass, the prosecutor here, tried to show that you could talk about both things inside the length of the phone call, which was 96 seconds because they have a record for that. so what josh steinglass did is he goes out there before the jury today. any basically times himself and he says let's try a little experiment. i will be cohen and he fix a call here. hey, keith how's it going? it seems like this prankster might be a 14-year-old kid. if i text you the number, can you call and talk to his family, see if you can let them know how serious this is it's not a joke uh-huh. >> yeah. >> alright thanks, pal. hey, is the boss near you? can you pass on the phone for a minute? i will wait just a couple of seconds and then he pauses and waits for schiller to fake hand the phone to make trump, and then he goes, hey boss, i know you're busy, but i just wanted to let you know that the other thing is moving forward. my friend keith and the other party that we just discussed its back on track. i'm going to try one last time to get our friend david to pay. but if it's not, it's going to be us to take care of it. uh-huh. yeah. all right. good luck in tampa. >> by what he was 49 seconds, which is way less than the 96 seconds of the actual sales. >> very surprised that this was allowed to happen then because i felt like he injected hypothetical things that did not actually happen into the minds of the jury. that's kinda remarkable about it was actually a really strong moment when you were in the room in court because josh steinglass held is a fake phone up to his ear as he did this and he did or didn't do that? >> yeah, sorry. i would've told you before him, but he did pause for a few seconds when he was saying, okay, wait to pass the phone to the boss and it was actually a powerful moment in court because what he was trying to do was restore michael cohen's credibility from that moment a few weeks ago, the question is, of course, the jury just had a week off did they remember that moment? was it distilled in their mind or was today actually more helpful in making the case that multiple things could be discussed on that call. and the point that he drove home after that was that the defense wants the jury to believe that michael cohen is coming in near to say anything he can to get trump convicted and josh shine losses saying, well, if he was why wouldn't he have gone further than the moments where he said actually trump denied to me having a relationship with stormy daniels or trump. did this i don't recall about that conversation. he was saying michael cohen can forget things that doesn't mean he's lying to you the bit with the phone is a good piece of stagecraft, like i respect that i'm envious of that i wish i would have done something like that as a prosecutor, but it's also a cheap gimmick that's not the point of what michael cohen got caught in there. the point is not he couldn't possibly have discussed both things in a minute, 36 obviously, you could easily he could've the point is, michael cohen never said a word about the texts with the 14 year-old kid in the grand jury in his prior statements to the prosecutor on direct undirected was a very clean story. i just called donald trump. it was about stormy daniel's. then he gets caught, then you see him backtrack in real time. and come up with this. oh, well, maybe it was both things. that's the point that goes to his credibility. they really it's a nice, not uberman, nice piece of stagecraft by the phone, i'm sorry. by the by the prosecutor, but to me, it's actually misdirection. >> john berman. thank you. everyone. stay with us. there's a lot more to discuss gonna be joined by the attorney of the man at the center of both closing arguments might cause i'm getting vaccinated by ssrs pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia already gotten pneumonia vaccine. but i'm asking about the added protection of krever 20. >> if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia, prevnar 20 is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that caused pneumococcal pneumonia in justice one dose. don't get prevnar 20 if you've had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients, adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects for pain and swelling at the injection site muscle pain, 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we made meet out of plants because we aren't quitters impossible. we're solving the meat problem with more meat. we had to take our old gas, heating. that was a huge project. i was so overwhelmed because i started contacting people off of anjie to work with people that knew what they were doing. it was ae doctors preferred better science, better results. close captioning brought to you by guilt, visit guilt.com today for up to 70% off designer brands, it has a designer's hey, you heart racing had inside a prices new every day, hurry. there'll be gone in a flash designer sales at up to 70% are sop guilty.com today as the transcripts we've been reading show the defense aimed a lot their rhetorical ammunition and the credibility of michael cohen quoting the former president's attorney, todd blanche, saying, and the last thing i'm going to talk about that gives you a reasonable doubt is what i've been talking about for the past several hours. >> michael cohen, he's the human embodiment of reasonable doubt, literally during his now is michael cohen's attorney, danya perry, who is also a former federal prosecutor first of all, you're i'm wondering what you made of todd blanche, all the things he said about your client, about michael cohen on the stand today? were you surprised by any of it? >> i wasn't surprised because he gave a full preview of his argument during the lengthy cross-examination. and it obviously was the theme that they hit over and over again, beginning with opening statements. and i think that's pretty much all the ammunition that he had. and he obviously hit it very hard. michael cohen just told me that by his count, at least he called mr. blanche, called mr. cohen lie or at five times? i don't know if anyone's actually counted that, but it sounds like it was a lot of times and i think that that was a miscalculation, not just because i'm here to support my clients credibility. i think he was very credible, very honest very forthright, very composed on the stand. and he gave no reason for the joint to believe that he wasn't telling the full and complete truth. actually, sometimes he overallocated to things that you know, at some point the defense that so you lied to congress on this in this date and michael said, yes he hadn't. so he's over admitting to crimes and to bad conduct, if anything. i think he handle themselves very well on the stand. and it's it's no wonder that the defense went after him. >> they clearly were trying to rile him up at times when he was on the stand. he remained very calm, really throughout, which is sort of a sayyed of michael cohen. a lot of people haven't seen people were surprised by that. there was that moment when todd blanche got into the 14 year-old boy phone call, that michael cohen had not previously disclosed or talked about? i don't know if prosecutors had not caught it as that occurring before the keith schiller phone call how how does how do you explain? >> the fact that michael cohen had not identified the involvement of the 14-year-old as part of that phone call? it's exactly as you say, he had been many years, right? that was in 2016. and he simply have forgotten what was a much less salient point from that conversation? once he was reminded of it, it did come back to mine. it had been a young prankster who basically made it impossible for mr. cohen to conduct his business. and so it did come back to him, but it wasn't the most impactful part of that conversation and as soon as he was refreshed he recalled it and truthfully and i think in a very common sense way that oh yeah, that did happen. but look how much we're able to accomplish and other conversations. and i think the prosecutor made made a really strong point of that is summation. and i think even the korda conversation that related to karen mcdougal which was less than 96 seconds in the important part of it, also makes the point that a lot can be accomplished. and so i don't think that was the aha moment that todd blanche tried to make it out to be and in fact, i think it kind of came back to hurt him once the evidence that yes, both these things can happen at the same time was brought back to bear. >> you said that you talked to michael cohen. i'm assuming that's today. i mean, what did he make of it was both sides talking about his credibility in the sense of obviously, todd blanche called him the gloat, the greatest fireball time. and in his closing argument, he did use the word liar. it seemed like every other five seconds and conjunction with michael cohen's name. but then josh steinglass also address that with the jury and said, you know, we didn't go and pick him up from the witness story is not an ideal witness. it was essentially is implication there saying that trump was the one who surrounded himself with michael cohen. i wonder what he made but testimony today for that was ali will back me up on this. that's a tried and true trick of the prosecution. they say, we would like to bring nuns and boy scouts to you as witnesses, but we're not the ones who pick them. it's the defendant who picks them as they're coconspirator. so that was expected and i think i have to hand it to the prosecution. a lot of times a prosecutors will eat eat that, and just say look, we know he's not he's lied alive and he's done this in that here. i think they were really honorable in supporting him and all the different ways in which she was corroborated in which also the jury could count on the fact that he was now telling the truth that he has turned a corner, as he said, i think in a part of the testimony that was really emotional and really impactful, and i watched the jury listening to michael cohen talk about his journey and about how we came to this place that has really cost him and his family so much. you're representing michael cohen but but you also know todd blanche. >> what did you make of him saying to the jury, don't send donald trump to prison based on michael cohen's words, which he was later represented by the judge over yeah, la la and i have seen that trick also many times there are a lot of tricks here, right? i mean, people who have who've been around the courtroom will see them and it's a classic jury nullification argument. they are trying a little back door trick, right? to tell the jury like, don't don't put this guy in prison. this is where he'll end up, particularly in the case of this magnitude. and that's so unprecedented when you have a former president and a presidential candidate, they, he wanted to back-channel to the, to the jury that the import of what they meant i'd be doing by convicting him and it's totally against the rules. the judge was right to admonish him and he thought, why not go for it? because if we if we get an acquittal were done and if i may as well just just just go for it. he's not gonna be reversed on it on yeah. >> i know you can't talk about the preparation in the attorney-client privilege that you did with michael, but i do want to ask you about one signature moment that really stood out for me in cohen's testimony and his connection with the jury. and maybe you'll tell us how they came to be. i noticed that as he got comfortable on this the and he would turn away from hoffinger, who was examining him and talk directly to the jury and the jury would focus on him almost like they were having a conversation together. was that something just tell us one thing was that something you practiced in prep well, i appreciate you noting that and anderson i appreciate your noting his demeanor on the stand. >> and as you say, that's not that michael cohen, everyone knows but i will say yes, we spent a lot of time in preparation, but this was truly all heartfelt. i do believe he's turned a corner and he's a different person than the michael cohen that you heard on those recordings or even that he the way he presents sometimes on his podcast, there was a moment where michael was very cool and his demeanor was understated. and then there was a moment where that would todd blanche played oh my god i was there for was like, oh my i was like, i hadn't heard the podcast it's like, oh, my god, that's a persona. you know, he takes on this drawing that you've been on a thought, you've been on his podcast. i've been on his back as he, you know, he presents in a certain way, he's an entertainer. but that's not the michael cohen that showed up for court is the michael cohen who did have a change of heart and decided as much as it put him in harm's way and his family that he was going to wear the white hat and do what he thinks is the right thing. danya perry. thank you so much. really good to have you appreciate it everyone else stay with us just hey, we're going to dive deep from the stormy daniels payment catch-and-kill scheme at the heart of this case was someone who knows the details very well. ronan farrow his investigative reporting. this has been extraordinary over the years, will 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finding hope just got a little easier. >> sign up is shining through cip.com be heard, be hopeful this is a secret, war, secrets and spies, premiere sunday at ten on cnn welcome back one return focus to what prosecutors claim is powerful evidence that exist beyond the testimony of michael cohen, they were speaking the testimony former national enquirer publisher david and evidence detailing what became known as the catch and kill scheme involving among other, stormy daniels and karen mcdougal's something. our next guest has reported extensively on. we're joined now by journalist ronan farrow, author of the 2019 bestseller, catch and kill, which explored the hush money scheme, the center of this trial and revealed a lot about it running. so the prosecution, they call with the former ceo of the national enquirer's parent company, utterly devastating. they call this testimony and that it eliminates the whole notion that this was politics as usual, to you, is pecker. among the most important of all the witnesses called? >> i think one of the canny's moves the prosecution made and how they built this case was to emphasize pecker to the extent that they have and also to put him first, you have to understand, although the charges are about these payments to stormy daniel's and the question of intent behind them, whether and how they were concealed and obviously in the very protracted close today from steinglass, the prosecutor, we got a tiktok of that in almost brutalizing detail that said the prosecution needed to recontextualized all of that with the prerequisite knowledge that this was part of, as you said, what they say is a catch-and-kill scheme an effort to subvert the election hatched in that meeting that they talked about so much would that pecker was present four in trump tower. so especially in light of the fact that the later case about the stormy payments specifically had to deal with this double-edged sword of michael cohen being important connective tissue that they were conveying to the jurors and michael cohen having some evidence, questions about his credibility and his checkered history in the public eye. that of course we saw the defense really seize on today, especially in light of all of that anderson pecker became very important and the argument that the prosecution made today, two jurors into the public, that pecker was italy. their star witness, rather than michael cohen, became very important in todd blanche when in his sort of meandering closing statement went down this road, are talking about catch and kill saying essentially the karen mcdougal wasn't catch and kill, sort of raising questions that does catch-and-kill even exist well, to give you a sense of that, i was in touch with sources around my reporting on ami than the parent company of the national enquirer just today. >> and the prevailing opinion within those circles, including senior ami folks who were really involved in an oversight role as this play this scheme was playing now the prevailing opinion seems to be that it's strains credulity to accept the defense's argument here that donald trump just had no knowledge of this. and today, todd blanche argued, well, to assert that donald trump always knew about his business dealings. the prosecution had to deal with decades old books saying he's a microphone for manager. but it's really more than that. this is a clear cut case where his representative, michael cohen, was doing something quite extraordinary as an act of loyalty. and one piece of evidence after another, what the prosecution called a mountain of evidence seems to suggest that he was behind it. so the question really here is not whether or there's an evidence surface level case. it's going to hinge on. is it beyond a reasonable doubt? and can they get all of those jurors on board? >> now, some time has passed. i'm wondering what you make of the importance of stormy daniels testimony in this trial? >> well stormy daniels was a really volatile courtroom moment and i think like michael cohen putting her on the stand was something of a risky maneuver for prosecutors. it was a double-edged sword it certainly diverted the case they were making into tawdry underlying facts that aren't really the germane to the charges being asserted. but they made a calculation that that was important to anderson. it was important to establish that donald trump was in a state of urgency and desperation when this scheme was undertaken that he really needed to conceal this in that particular window of time in order to remain electable, especially with women voters voters, that's also a course why they fought to introduce as much as they could about the access hollywood tape and only 60% to a limited extent. but the prosecution is hoping that all of that will add up to juror saying, okay, we get why this scheme was undertaken. >> it was also one of the things that todd blanche spent a fair amount of time today on essentially saying, well, that just wasn't the case, that the access hollywood tape really wasn't as big a deal is most people would probably remember it being or that that these things were not as important as the prosecution is making them out to be and i think hope hicks his testimony was like stormy daniel's quite pivotal in conveying to jurors or at least prosecutors attempting to convey to jurors that that's not quite right, that this was a campaign and a circle of people around donald trump that were thrust into crisis and that there was a reason for him to undertake this extraordinary effort to in the prosecution's terms, subvert the election, whether jurors will care and whether the public will care as they process the information from this case. >> that's another question, but i do think in terms of making what was a pretty difficult case on the prosecutor? fusion is part it this could have gone sideways and a lot of ways that it didn't they really, they cleared a lot of the hurdles they were looking to ronen great stock to ronan farrow. >> thank you so much. >> great. thanks, anderson. all right. >> more now, with the panel, do you think the jury, arthur fully realizes the catch-and-kill scheme? >> it is as tawdry. >> i mean, todd blanche from is essentially saying today that this is just how campaigns are, that this was just sort of business as usual. >> i have to five hours for the prosecution if he didn't do a good job somewhere in there explaining it, then shame on him. i think so there are times in the trial when you have to have guts as a defense attorney to stand up after a prosecution witnesses saying, i have no questions, then in summation, you say, you know what an ask me question? can we dan has any questions? she doesn't matter. she doesn't matter. they only called her to embarrass him. they only called her to prejudice you. it doesn't matter if they fooled around and they didn't fluoride you don't want she really is. no, you heard it was heard testimony, folks. >> she's an extortionist she's an absolute extortion as she wanted money. >> she wanted money for her story. the same way. she wanted money for sex or whole leinz should point out that todd blanche did not say it doesn't matter whether or not this happened. he said my client denies it. yeah. >> and i for his i disagree i disagree with that strategy and that's why as a defense attorney in my retainer agreement to this day it says the attorney shall determine the strategy of the case. so with the exception of whether the client testifies or not, the client overrules me but in terms of what i say or what i don't say, they put it they signed on the dotted line. i determine how we question or what. >> so you're an attorney who actually does have a retainer agreement anything over 3,500 bucks. >> i got it. that's the law in new york state. >> and that line in arthur's agreement is one of the reasons he's not representing donald prompt. >> i'm going to take the fifth, but not when there are all these aphorisms among trial lawyers slim to win, less is more slim to win slim to win means shrink your case down, remove everything that is not essential do not keep the jury until 8:00 it's it's these are theories of discipline, but the problem is that when you have donald trump for a client, there's plenty of evidence that he makes demands. we had reporting caitlin had reporting that he was pushing for robert costello. that was an absolute disaster for his case apparently those of you who are there, stella mentioned in paisley, it was mentioned castula came up today? >> yeah. i mean, it wasn't a lot size fence mentioned him to very briefly to talk about how he michael cohen claimed that they didn't have much of a relationship. they didn't have a legal relationship when that was not the case it was a very far very didn't they say sayyed of the jury like, well, you heard his testimony, so you know what that is i don't value that one of the things sitting in the courtroom just listening to all the various parts of this case. >> is that sometimes it does feel like you need to be a lawyer to sort through some of the things that are being discussed here. and that's not what they've got. they have a jury except, for those two lawyers, but they have a jury of just regular people. and i do wonder sometimes how this is all going to go down because it is, it, it's gotten in the weeds, both because the defense has brought things to the table that they shouldn't have. and also because the prosecution has to it's gotten complicated and i'm not sure who that's going to benefit at the end of the de to build on that point what's going to happen? the first thing tomorrow morning is the judge is going to spend an hour plus reading a 50, 60 page jury instruction. you want to talk about weeds. just wait for tomorrow. it's going to get deep and then because it's new york state, the written jury instruction does not go back into the jury room with them, so we're going to see he notes throughout the week saying, hey, can you explain to us again the third element of the second crime so you're right, abby, the whole trick here is taking it out of the weeds and making it comprehensible to a human being. >> more new, new details, excuse me, from inside court coming up. also hear from stormy daniels, attorney and get his take on closing arguments plus the pivotal moment ahead. for the former president with jury getting the case tomorrow morning you will never smell better everywhere, like you will with looming it's so easy to use. >> just a pea-sized amount like this, rubs in like a lotion controls owner for three days, pits, feet, privates, anywhere you have odor but wish you didn't. now before you say isn't that what soap and water is? i'm here to tell you that your shower doesn't work as well as you think get us and lumi is clinically proven to work better than a shower with soap give lumia, try and see what happens because your body has never been so 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better results. >> violent earth with liev schreiber, premiere sunday at nine on cnn it is just before 9:00 p.m. here in new york, the end of nearly 12 hour day for jurors in the first, the former president is four criminal trials. look at the case tomorrow with it a job they know jury has ever had before deciding whether or not to convict if former president united states and current candidate for the office again of as many as 34 felonies today was the final chance for both sides to persuade them we're talking about it tonight, joining the panel, retired new york city criminal judge george grosso and jury consultant alan. alan tuerkheimer. just grosso. it is great to have you with all your experience here. what do you make up closing arguments tonight? i mean five hours two-and-a-half, three hos.s