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The amanpour. Hour. Heres where were headed this week it took a sickening video of violence for Sean Diddy Combs to finally admitted it and apologize for abusing his then girlfriend. I think a lot of assets, survivors will recognize our perpetrators in him, but a week later, we redirect the spotlight squarely onto survivors with an incredible panel of women on both sides of the pond and there are so many women, men, and children who are watching this and i just want them i want them to know that they are not alone, then the dean of columbia Journalism School, jelani cobb, on balancing Freedom Of Speech and security and fighting disinformation in a critical Election Year we havent come to any real conclusions about what should be done with disinformation, plus, how the sudden death of irans president could reboot its relationship with them america, moving towards the more middle gives more room for the United States to engage your on. Also, this our israeli author and public intellectual youve are noah harari on breaking the Cycle Of Violence since in the middle east, i think the entire jewish people is a historical junction. And in the wake of my exclusive interview with the icc Chief Prosecutor on seeking Arrest Warrants for leaders because of hamas and israel, nobody is above the law from my archive when yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic became the first city Head Of State to be tried by an International Criminal tribunals i consider this Tribunal Force tribunal in die expense, four indictments. It is illegal welcome to the program, everyone. Im Christiana Amanpour in london, and we start with the persistent and pernicious violence against women. And the lack of action and accountability to protect them this week, two more women accused Sean Diddy Combs of Sexual Assault and other offenses. This comes after cnn obtained sickening video of the rapper attacking his girlfriend back then, Cassie Ventura are horrific assault that combs has now been forced to confront after years of denials now we wont victimize casie again by showing her being attacked, but you can see combs in this short clip chasing her. Since its surface, weve been scouring the reaction to the assault and we found very little bit focused on the women instead, its been on combs, his stardom, his business, his career in a statement Cassie Ventura for i offer my hand to those still living in fear. Now worldwide, one in three women have experienced physical or Sexual Violence and women of color suffer the most ive been speaking about all of this within esteemed panel of women, the Rights Attorney gloria or read along with Laylah Taotie and April Hernandez theres castillo, who are both survivors and advocates April Hernandez castillo, i want to turn to you. Did you see the video . Im interested because some have said people should see it because that shows exactly what happens. So people have different views. Im interested in yours i did watch it. I watched it and immediately my body felt all of the trauma come back up and as hard as it was to watch honestly, i was finally happy that the world can see what what Domestic Violence looks like im going to get terrifying. Im going to get your experiences in a moment after i bring in gloria already. As i said, the renowned womens rights defender and attorney, gloria, again, this is a week later, weeks since cnn actually was able to get this video and show the world what actually had happened what is your reaction to that and to the whole Legal Process that simply doesnt seem to put women at the center. Those women who are clearly victims, as this video shows, youre so right, christiana, because we live in a celebrity culture, so becomes all about the celebrity pretty. But what about the victims . As you point out it was interesting because when Cassie Ventura filed her lawsuit and then of course, there were denials by Sean Diddy Combs and suggestions that this was all about a pay day. And he denied that and also a number, the allegations that a number of other civil lawsuits that were filed, he did that knowing that there was a video, but it hadnt become public. And the reason they knew there was a video was because many years ago, reportedly, he bought that video from the now closed intercom and thatll hotel in century city. So he knew it was there. Now, he had to admit it and stop the denial. And he said he was sorry and he was getting therapy and so forth. But there needs to be consequences for violence against women thats what we saw in the video. We saw him dragging, kicking, an otherwise treating Cassie Ventura as though shes an object that he owns a piece of property rather than a human being. I would like to ask you later if you dont mind. To maybe tell us what your experience was, what led you to become an advocate so actually what led me to doing my work is very much like gloria says, a lot of times we focus on the perpetrator. Weve become obsessed with the pathology of why they perpetrate, why did they do this . And we stop focusing on the victims and survivors themselves. So we become statistics and identities are completely lost where anonymous. What i found was after fleeing my purple i looked around and i thought, well, what do i do now . Where do i go now . Who do i turn to now . And there was just nothing and it wasnt even that the support was lacking in quality, just didnt exist at all. And it was very much a moment where i thought i was desperate to find women somewhere who would just like me who had experienced without experience, which is why i turned to social media and start to share in stories on behalf of the women in the community. And pretty much overnight, a community of survivors formed and it was really indicative of that desperate need to have that safe space where women have come forward and share their stories would happen come to you if you dont mind saying what i experienced was norfolk strangulation. It was i mean, it was diverse amount of violence. It was from pushes and shoves, two black eyes to nonfatal strangulation to been through through a glass door, which i still have scars on my arm today and then on top of that, weve actually got the stuff that really aprils the abuse even more, which is the emotional and mental abuse which is economical abuse, which is the gaslight and the trauma bonding. So there was a big Big Array Overview that i suffered. Let me turn to you april what happened to you . I was abused from the age of 16 to about 19. 5. I was physically and emotionally abused to the point where my abuser nearly took my life and then i began to have and suffer from suicidal ideations and it wasnt until that moment where i didnt want to wake up anymore because of the shame and pain that i felt or i realized at that moment, i have to leave and i found the courage to finally say, im done. Its enough. And so i made a decision to leave and also to live my life and make the choice that i would use it when i was being abused. I was a teenager and so i didnt dare share my story. No one knew about my abuse absolutely. No one not even my parents and so it took me about ten years to find the courage to finally share my story. And i grew up with a mother and a father who loved on me who set the foundation for me. My mother told me that my voice was powerful. My father was saying a man should love you in uplift you. And yet i found myself in a situation where i was fighting for my life in silence and im so happy that i made it out and my father is my hero. And i never forgot my fathers voice. And it really gave me the strength and i set a promise when i survived and i left, i said, i will speak to whomever i will use my voice because that is what abuse does is silences your voice. And there are so many women, men, and children who are watching this. And i just want them, i want them to know that they are not alone. And your Voice Matters and you matter by the way. One thing that is common to all of these situations is a Power Imbalance where the victim does not feel that she has the power, whether its in the workplace, whether its in sports business, entertainment, religion, that she doesnt have the power thats batter or does. So we have to empower her and thats important. But we also have to make sure that we have enough women in office to make sure that this becomes a priority eliminating, preventing, and imposing consequences for the battery first, who commit an inflict these injustices against women. So we have to have also more women judges and more women in Boards Commissions agencies until we have an equal structure involving women and men, and those who are also diverse in many ways, we are not going to end violence against women were not going to be able to enjoy true equal partnerships between women and men, keeping the focus where it belongs and coming up next, the dean of columbias Journalism School, jelani cobb, on Fighting Election disinformation and how to responsibly cover the first us president to be criminally indited donald trump conference final Stars Of David Dallas in a whole new used to climb to the Western Conference final presented by guy go. Coverage begins tonight. Its seven on tnt water would help us. Its dry spots. 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Do it, savory chicken. Chris veggies oh, wrap these maps are amazing people can hear my thoughts thats a problem stay fresh out there. All new reps from subway make this assembler to share and save during the qia Summer Sticker sales event in one of our capable suvs this summer, visit, your local kia dealer and get 1. 9 apr for 48 months plus 1,000 bonus cash on especially tags 2024, sportage Minister Manto vehicles. This is a secret. A secrets and spy premier sunday, june 2, attempt on cnn welcome back to the program now right after he was first inaugurated, president in 2017, donald trump branded the free and independent preska the enemy of the american people. Now, despite fighting multiple criminal indictments, including alleged election interference, and the capital insurrection on january 6, he is, of course, the republican nominee. But with disinformation including an avalanche from russia and chinas thriving in siloed online forums and press freedom get them in decline in the us and globally. Itll be harder than ever for actual journalism to defend democracy in the upcoming election. Joining me now is jelani cobb. Hes dean of columbias Journalism School, and a staff writer for the new yorker welcome to the program. Thank you. Okay so what do you make of the challenge for all of us and for you as the dean of the major Journalism School of whats happening right now, as i said, theres avalanche of disinformation right around yet another important election so i think this is not a new problem. No, obviously its getting worse, getting worse, and the problem that i think we really confront is the Learning Curve for us socially as democratic societies and professionally particularly in the Journalism World we have not quite figured out the formula that we need in order to address how we operate in a Disinformation Ecosystem and all the things are coming to a head as we see this wave of elections around the world and this is going to be a defining issue. How would you think the mainstream media, lets just say televisions is ron television . Is covering trump in now, taking everything that he says live and all the rest of it. So i mean, i think that we see things like still treating him as if he were a normal candidate still reporting on him and the kinds of protocols you would use for a normal candidate . See not kinda drilling down on facts being susceptible to the distractions. If he says or does something outrageous and we chase after it, like a pet chasing a shiny toy as opposed to drilling down on fact, after fact, after fact, doing the things that are boring, quite frankly the things that are less spectacular, but the things that really go to the heart the same who this person is, what hes actually stands for, what the threats, the potential threats to the United States, our democratic system in the by implication, the threats globally that could be a product of his presidency if he were to be elected again thats the work that i think that we have to really emphasize all the historic examples that you teach at the Journalism School, or that we should be aware of. I mean, i remember reading, im just going to get this a little fuzzy. But i think it was one of the Main National newspapers back at the height of mccarthys lies basically and is red scare as in his black lists and destroying the lives of people. They decided that they would not any longer print stuff. Did not want reach the level that could be defended in a chord, right and so heres the, heres amazing thing about this. That the parallels with a joe mccarthy era in American History are astounding one of the things that began to happen and as a result, in mccarthy would say outrageous things and newspapers would just print them or put them on the headlines but they had a builtin Conflict Of Interest because if he said something outrageous, you knew that people were going to pick up the paper and buy it. But over the time, as people began to see the corrosive effects of what they were doing they began to correct him in headlines Parenthetically Mccarthy accuses congressmen of being a communist parentheses, no evidence this is true and so there was a Learning Curve where they recognize the real danger of what theyve been doing and what did that do to his the potency of his of his lies and is red bag well, its certainly it certainly made it more difficult for him to be able to do that. And the other part of it was that justice he had been a product of the news media. It was Television Media that brought him down. And so it was kind almost immune response would are moreau Forensic Digging into it, embed is exactly that the case study he that we use. Okay. How is anybody meant to know which has the socalled Good Housekeeping seal of approval in terms of journalism, we havent come to any real conclusions about what should be done with disinformation about whether protected speech includes lies thats a really complicated area of american law. And you are, as i said, the dean of columbia Journalism School a practicing journalists how did you grapple with what was happening on your campus protests, calling in the police essentially, the struggle between protest and and speech. Sure. So at the Journalism School, we kind of looked at this slide. I think maybe slightly differently from other, some of the other institutions that columbia, because this is something we would report on. And so we follow the protocols of any News Organization there were some people who were legitimately dangerous who found their way onto campus who outsiders is it . Some farright groups actually were proud boys and a presence there. And so those are things that complicated the scenario. But for us, we err on the side of free speech and free press at every turn. Jelani cobb, dean of the columbia Journalism School. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for being here and coming up next. Never let a crisis go to waste could he wrongs new leadership backing, Reboot Relations with the United States . Hey expert insight from former Senior State Department adviser, valley nasa leadership battle, Reboot Relations with the United States expert insight from former Senior State Department adviser valley nasa and theyre all coming . Those who are still with us, yes. Grandpa whats this . Your wings. Light em up gentlemen, its a beautiful. Day to fly. The countrys iran, that was especially here iran with this massive precession is one part of the processions to lay, the people were not ella proper brass Cnn International correspondent fred pleitgen, that covering the funeral of iranian president Ebrahim Raisi and one week later, do we know anymore about how rice hes deaths will affect iran internally . Whether it will reshape the rounds relationship with america and the west for answers i turn, to historian valley nasa, whos a former Senior Adviser to the us state department, valley nasa. Welcome back to the program. Thank you. Good to be with you. We want to get your analysis. Youre the goto person about iran but can i just ask you boldly does his death actually matter . Lets just first hey in terms of relations with the us and he was not a big voice in redirecting policies on the region on the Nuclear Issue or visavis israel. All of these decisions were made by the office of the Supreme Leader and the National Security council in iraq valley. You mean that is really ayatollah harmony, right . Is this so . Of course Supreme Leader who makes all the decisions and is that likely to change . No, its not likely to change. It is a Supreme Leader who makes all the decisions, but theres a National Security table in iran. And usually the president and the fire Foreign Minister could be big voices in there. They could move the policy at least even in certain degrees in One Direction or the other. But raisi unlike his predecessor, president rouhani, was not a big voice at that table. And therefore, he was not a big source of support for either talking to the United States or capping the nuclear program, or retaliate against israel. And his silence where his more muted presence at the table resulted in that the Supreme Leader and the commander of the irgc and the Security Forces became even more dominant in charting irans Foreign Policy. So what do you think now with the death of raisi and with harmony having to reread jiggle the puzzles what will happen in terms of its proxies in the middle east and in terms of relations with saudi arabia is also the us is trying to get a grand bargain in the region i mean, the policies were already in place before raisi weiss was killed the regional issues that proxy issues are in the hands of the revolutionary guards. There were there before raisi arrived and they will be there after racy. And in terms of normalization with saudi arabia. Now this is something that is embraced by the system as a whole and it is the consensus so the system, however, depending on who replaces racy we can have a bigger momentum in terms of engaging the us and the region and perhaps even moving towards some kind of a Nuclear Understanding with United States and valley. What about internally . Because many times when there are shifts of any kind, whether its the uprising of the death of mahsa amini, or whether its this many on the outside its like theyre sitting on the edge of their seats hoping that theres going to be some internal upheaval that will finally get rid of the ayatollahs i dont see that happening now. I mean, raisi was not that kind of a consequential figure but it can be, it can be an important change in iran, raisi was blamed for the hijab issue that caused the mahsa amini protests. And then for the suppression of it, he didnt do well in addressing irans economic issue whos and was increasingly blamed for the performance of the iranian economy now, this means that now going into president ial elections, theres a possibility that the Supreme Leader would allow a more experienced and better known manager to take over the presidency. Somebody that who would be politically more moderate than reis if, if that pans out, what would your recommendation be, for instance, for the United States, so others even in the region, trying to deal with iran i think that trend with talking to iran and iran engaging on deescalation was already in place. Even if moderately more moderate candidate would, would give even more impetus to these kinds of engagements with their own. In other words, under racy, irans Foreign Policy already hit its most maximum extreme that had been the case for decades and now, moving towards the more middle gives more room for the United States to engage your on more room for saudi arabia to engage your arm. And one other factor here is that everybody expected the iranian president ial election to come after the american president ial election. Night is going to come before the president ial election, which allows as the new administration in the us or the democratic or republican to reboot with iran more quickly than it had anticipated to be the case valley nasa. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I once tried to interview raisi in new york right after the death of mahsa amini. But he refused to sit down with me unless i wore the hijab. Now, coming up next, slings and arrows directed at the icc. After my interview with the Chief Prosecutor on the Arrest Warrants for leaders of hamas and israel. And then from my archive flashback to a Resting Uga Stop president Slobodan Milosevic. The first sitting Head Of State to be tried by an International Criminal tribunals the nba playoffs. I always get emotional, you more concerned about whats going on inside the nba, then whats going on inside of you, you know, doc, right . And thats all the time we have. Thanks for watching. Are you cutting to a commercial Western Conference finals presented by at t, continue on into why choose asleep, clever, smart, bad climate. My sayyed software my side firmer, sleep number. Does that now say 50 of asleep Number Limited Edition smart bet plus reihan, olivia, when you add any base jump now and sleep number. Com, theres not the belen the subway serious footlong, except when you add on all new footlong zach kick, were talking about 2 footlong to row 3,000 footlong pretzel kind of 5 footlong cookie. 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Yahya sinwar, and israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu war crimes and Crimes Against Humanity over the october 7 attacks on israel and the war on gaza he also seeks Arrest Warrants for israels defense minister yoav gallant and two other top hamas leaders, naming netanyahu makes it the first time the court has gone after a democratically elected leader prompting an outcry in israel and in the United States, where even before the announcements, republican lawmakers made this direct threat in a letter to the prosecutor, quote, target israel, and we will target you if you move forward with the measures indicated in the report, we will move to end all americans support for the icc sanction your employees and associates and bar you and your families from the United States, you have been warned heres what khan told me in response theres hotheads everywhere in this people that are mature, statesman and states, women and and leaders that are those that have fidelity, something greater than themselves. Whether its their constitutions. But ultimately its the rule of law the good news is i think for the last twoandahalf years, weve had very positive engagement with the Biden Administration in the United States, were working across a range of situations, whether its in ukraine or die for. And ive said to distinguish members on the hill and to the administration that rome statute values are quintessential American Values against bullying. Its against the untrammeled power against the most vulnerable. Its the rights, the dignity of the individual is the protection of babies. I mean, these are fundamental American Values that should engender bipartisan support. Now, of course, this situation unfortunately lies on the San Andreas Fault of International Politics and Strategic Interests and of course, ive had some Electrode Leaders speak to me and very be very blunt this court is built for africa and for thugs like putin was what one Senior Leader told me we dont view it like that this court is the legacy of nuremberg. This court is a sad indictment of humanity. This court should be the triumph of law over power and brute force grabbed what you can take, what you want, do what you will. And were going to simply be an were not itd be dissuaded by threats or any other activities because in the end, we have to fulfill our responsibilities as prosecutors, as the men and women of the office, as judges, as the registry, to something bigger than ourselves, which is the fidelity to justice and were not going to be swayed by the different types of threats, some of which are public and some maybe not and yet the Biden Administration is also considering sanctioning the icc but its investigation harks back to another leader who was indicted in the middle of a war yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic was handed over to a un war crimes tribunals for his role in the wars in kosovo and bosnia and the Srebrenica Genocide from my archive this week, the first time a sitting Head Of State was tried by an International Criminal tribunal in the middle of your experiences in a moment after i bring in gloria already, as i said, the renowned womens rights defender and attorney, gloria, again, this is a week later, weeks since cnn i actually was able to get this video showed the world what actually had happened what is your reaction to that and to the whole Legal Process that simply doesnt seem to put women at the center. Those women who are clearly victims as this video shows youre so right, christiana, because we live in a celebrity culture. So becomes all about the celebrity. But what about the victims . As you point out it was interesting because when Cassie Ventura filed her lawsuit and then of course, there were denials by Sean Diddy Combs and you know, suggestions that this was all about a paid he seven the prosecutor versus Slobodan Milosevic at his arraignment, milosevic play the chord as though he was still president i consider distributional forced rebuke and in indictments folks in documents it is illegal decade milosevic had taken his conscience three into four walls losing forge, a million dead. Were left scattered across the balkans despite the blood that flowed in croatia and bosnia. It was in milosevics own serbian province of cost servo that the tribunals prosecutors, saw their first chance to hold him personally responsible. For the crimes of war when milosevics Security Forces battled cassava, Albanian Separatists observers were alarmed by what looked like civilian casualties one, five, i repeat one, five bodies clustered together. It looks like there were all shot trying to escape over this scene from kosovo in january 1999, would confirm the prosecutors hunch its been be headed here. I drag jack and in places like it lay milosevics undoing. Give officially score jesus a few months later, an albanian dr. Shot this footage 127, mostly old men slaughtered in the hamlet of izbat say what he saw would match these us Satellite Photos of graves in the same area. Slobodan milosevic is the first ever sitting Head Of State to be indicted by an international court. And he continues to deny the charges against him. But prosecutors here, the tribunals say they can prove their case. But proving a president s criminal responsibility will take more than just videotape more than even the corpses and it would take years. Milosevic died alone in his prison cell before a verdict could be reached. But almost two decades after committing their crimes, milosevics henchmen, rather than carriage and ratko mladic, known as the butcher of bosnia, were convicted of genocide and they would jailed for life coming up. Israeli author and public intellectual Yuval Noah Harari on the root tragedy of this war. And breaking the historical Cycle Of Violence tuesday the evidence is the testimony has ended, but its not over yet before the jury gets the final say. Prosecutors and trumps defense team, give the final word live coverage of closing in arguments in the trump hush money trial begin tuesday at nine eastern. All new subway routes are packed with delicious ingredients in a pillar, we lavage wrap valley or refreshing lunch that Taster Murphy for pro athletes like me, right . 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Com from roger to we there yet so many ways to save life ready, while it had thats 3605 by Whole Foods Market have you ever felt your heart stop and race at the same time . The triple crown awarded three Rokia Ev Nine Qia Movement that inspires was that your grandfather leading armies to battle . Was that your great aunt keeping armies alive drafting the plans . Taking the pictures. Was it your Family Members who flew, who fixed who fought, who rose to the occasion when the world needed them. Most discover, preserve, and share the stories of your familys [sfx] water lapping. [sfx] water splashing. [sfx] ambient laughing. Wait, scan the code now and ask about the bosley guarantee more than liebermann at the pentagon. And this cnn n a broader perspective i know that a lot of accusations against the Icc Of Making Comparisons between netanyahu and sinwar and so forth. This is really a spin trying, i mean, if the question is not the comparison, the question is the allegations and the evidence that backs them and the other thing, looking at the whole episode as a whole issue from a broad perspective, is whether we would like to live in a world will lead eaters are held accountable to International Law or not whether we would like to live in an orderly world, a world of International Law. Youve said in your about, about the future. Theres enough land between the jordan and the mediterranean to build houses, schools, roads, hospitals for everyone but it can be realized only if each side can honestly say that even if it had Unlimited Power and zero restrictions, that it would not wish to expel the other. You just described it that no matter what injustices they committed against us and what threats they still pose, we nevertheless respect their right to live dignified lives in their country of birth. You say this Needs Leadership and currently, you havent been able to identify that kind of leadership. And so, so far, the israeli Prime Minister, and as you say, his coalition does not want a palestinian state or even palestinians to run gaza after this war. Where do you, where do you think . Where do you see on the Israeli Bailey sides some kind of flipping the switch towards some kind of solution from this untrammeled war i dont know at present the netanyahu coalition, its not only one person he has a majority of 64 out of 120 knesset members. They are all supporting him. After october 7 me and many other israeli, we were sure that this government will follow in a matter of weeks its still is extremely stable it enjoys widespread support but history is never linear. And we can still hope that people will, will come to their senses what is at stake . I think is really its not just israel. I think the entire jewish people is at a historical junction that when we need to reflect on the history of the jewish people, you know, for 2000 years if you go back 2000 years to the Great Jewish Revolt against the romans in the First Century ce it was led by religious zealots who thought that god will help them to defeat the roman empire. And they were wrong. They brought a terrible disaster on the heads of the head if the jewish people, and i think netanyahu is building up to beam the next simon bar kokhba, who led one of these disastrous revolts and when the romans destroyed the jerusalem and the temple, they changed the nature of judaism judaism then was religion of the temple in the priests with all the bloody sacrifices. And the romans destroyed that and judaism became a religion of Learning Jews for 2000 years, they were a religion of learning. Everybody today were and then they built their state. Which we build our state. And the big question is, what did we learn in 2000 years . And if you ask netanyahu and his colleagues like smotrich and ben gvir we learned only the joy of power, of feeling superior, The Dark Ecstasy crushing weaker people under our feet. Now, if this is what we learned in 2000 years, this was such a waste of time because we could have just asked the romans, they could have told us 2000 years ago how to destroy city and how to enjoy feeling like being superior to others and so forth and i think its a real question that i think jews should in israel and elsewhere reflect what did we learn in 2000 years that the romans didnt already know . Im going to reflect on that Yuval Noah Harari is always good to have you. Thank you so much indeed. Thank you you can watch are full conversation online at amanpour. Com. Up next, was it really her the latest twist in the ai chat . But saga with Actress Scarlett Johansson the nba playoffs, i always get emotional. You more concerned about whats going on inside the nba and whats going on inside of you, you know, doc, right . And thats all the time we have. Thanks for watching. Or you cutting to a commercial Western Conference finals . A product of his presidency if he were to be elected again thats the work that i think that we have to really emphasize. Or their historic examples that you teach at the Journalism School, or that we should be aware of. I mean, i remember reading and im just going to get this a little fuzzy. But i think it was one of the Main National newspapers back at the height of mccarthys lot is basically and is red scares and his blacklists and destroying the lives of people. They decided that they would not any longer print staff. Did not reach the level that could be defended in a chord, right . So heres the, heres the amazing thing about this that the parallels with the joe mccarthy era in an American History are astounding. One of the things that began to happen as a result in mccarthy would say outrageous things and newspapers would just print them or put them on the headlines. They had a builtin Conflict Of Interest because if he said something outrageous, you knew that people were going to pick up the paper and buy it. But over the time, as people began to see the corrosive effects of what they were doing, they began to correct him in headlines Parenthetically Mccarthy accuses congressmen of being a communist parentheses, no evidence this is true and so there was a Learning Curve where they recognize its a real danger of what theyve been doing. And what did that do to his the potency of his of his lies and is red, but it certainly, it certainly made it more difficult for him to be able to do that. And the other part of it was that justice he had been a product of the news media. It was Television Media that brought him down. And so it was kind of almost immune response moreover, door moreau, thats right. Forensic digging into it embed is exactly the case study that we use. Okay. How is anybody meant to know which has the socalled Good Housekeeping seal of approval in terms of journalism, we havent come to any real conclusions. About what should be done with disinformation about whether protected speech includes lies thats a really complicated area of american law and you are, as i said, the dean of columbia Journalism School a practicing journalists how did you grapple with what was happening on your campus protests, calling in the police, essentially, the struggle between protest and speech. So ever Journalism School, we looked at this slide. I think maybe slightly differently from other, some of the other institutions that columbia, because this is something we would report on. And so we follow the protocols of any News Organization there were some people who were legitimately dangerous who found their way onto campus who outsiders is that some farright groups actually were proud boys and a presence there those are things that complicated the scenario. But for us, we err on the side of free speech and free press at every turn. Jelani cobb, dean of the columbia Journalism School. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Coming up next never let a crisis go to waste. Could he wrongs new leadership battle, reboot . Patients with the United States expert