Transcripts For CNNW Anderson 20240703

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The former president block poster because after what has at times been a meandering crossexamination and the prosecutions most important witness, Michael Cohen today, trump attorney todd blanche was able to repeatedly raised questions about cohens honesty, not just in the past, but his honesty in his testimony before this jury this week i was in the courtroom this morning just before the lunch break. Blanche presented Text Messages to cohen between him and former trump bodyguard Keith Schiller. The messages were from october 24, 2016 and they appear to contradict testimony. Cohen gave monday on direct examination that goes to the heart of the alleged scheme to falsify Business Records earlier in the week, cohen testified about texting schiller. He said under oath that he needed to talk to trump are urgently and schiller was always by his side. He testified that he you schillers phone to speak to the former president cohen told the jury in his earlier testimony that the purpose of the call was, quote, to discuss the Stormy Daniels matter and the resolution of it but today, todd blanche did something that prosecutors had apparently not done, or at least not discussed with Michael Cohen owning their questioning of him on the witness stand. Blanche read previous Text Messages cohen had received shortly before he texted schiller, and they showed that cohen was responding to a 14yearold crank color who had been pranking him by phone for days. Cohen texted schiller informing him about the prank calls and wanting help from schiller about the calls and that at appears is why he then called Schiller Blanche appeared to have trapped cohen arguing that the subsequent call between him and schiller last only 96 seconds. In question whether in this quote comes to us from our reporters in the room, you had enough time to update schiller about all the problems you were having and also update President Trump about the status of the Stormy Daniels situation its important to remember that cohen had never mentioned this 14yearold crank color and testimony, blanche directly stated that he lied under oath earlier this week about speaking within Candidate Trump on that day, it was a major moment on a day thats all several other notable developments, including sources tell cnn the defense its may call a former attorney for cohen, Robert Costello, to continue the Defense Argument that the onetime fixer for the former president is a liar, who have the judge also suggested summations could begin next week, theres a lot to talk to with our panel joining us as Robert Ray Of Former president s council during his first impeachment trial. Former federal prosecutors jeffrey tubingen, cnn anchor abby phillip, also, three more who witnessed that Pivotal Moment in a courtroom today was cnns anchor Kaitlan Collins went after the lunch break. Norm eisen, who is the council that was democrats during that first impeachment, was there this morning and correspondent Kara Scannell kara, what was that moment . The one that stood out to you owe by far . Absolutely. I mean, it was the big moment of the day and the way that todd blanche did it spent a lot of the morning on these inconsistent statements drawing out when Michael Cohen may have lied and then he gets to this phone call and he begins by saying, you spoke with the former you testified de on monday, you spoke with trump on the 24th cohen says yes and he says, do you remember was on Speaker Phone or did schiller hand the phone comes like, oh, i dont remember. So hes hes setting it up in such a way that you think youre going back to this. And then he says what about these Text Messages . And then goes exactly as you just described, just confronting cohen with these Text Messages in the timestamps that were so close and that showed Keith Schiller saying to him cohens complaining about this 14 real calling him. Shiller says at 8 02, call me coming calls him at 8 02. Its a 96 second phone call and cohen then says, well, you know, blanche is just building this crescendo. He is focusing in on this on cohen and hes like admitted you lied and you made up this call and cohen says im not sure thats accurate later on, he tried to correct that a bit and said that the reason why he remembered this specificly was because this was as he put it, so important such a critical thing. And so he had it in his memory has been telling the story for six years. Im not sure that that did the job though. Norm. I mean, did you believe Michael Cohen in what his response to this was because his response and basically evolved into well, i was doing both when he was cornered, he could have basically either said you know what, i misremembered this, which would have been devastating or what he did which was i did both. I both talked to Keith Schiller about this 14 yearold boy who i want to get vengeance against, which was bizarre enough and i had time to tell President Trump is crucial piece of information, which is im going ahead with stormy deal and trump agreed and there was a ferocious debate in the courtroom between the people who thought it was a true perry mason moment. And some in my row who said really, yes, george, our friend George Conway he said, what is everybody getting so exercise i think the same demand is around, brought looted, sitting just just in front of anderson. I i. Wanted to grab you and be like, oh, my god, norm, are you hearing we had a quick conversation about it. It was a good moment of cross. It was a very professional and powerful moment of cross i think if cohen had been shown those texts by the prosecution on the direct examination, if they had refresh his recollection, theres nothing implausible about, but thats what you write know, i think both subject it seems like a huge muscle thank by prosecutors was not the best. It was not there. They nine and no. Did they not look at what the texas there it was not their finest home and i my experience has been it wasnt it was a blow on the chin, but my experience, 30 years of doing this is that it takes more than one punch to knock out a witness. This is a witness that the jury had believed but watching the jury at the time, i did not think it was a knockout blow. Heres the thing if im a juror and again, its possible to reduce jurors. But if im a juror and ive heard and ive been warned that Michael Cohen lies the prosecutors have said this. Theyve set it up. Ive prepared for that. Im prepared for hes lied in the past repeatedly. I dont know if a juror is prepared for he lied to this jury two days ago, but now hes really telling the truth. I mean, i dont know. Does that does a juror make a difference between oh, yeah. Those he is old lives, but hes really now telling the truth. Jurors understand neat, clean this up in the he was stronger after lunch. Memory is not perfect. Okay. People do not have perfect recollection, but youre gonna get read witnesses, accept for an inveterate liar. So let me just show you whats really hard oranges started. You want to think is out before its going to leave my mind, which is if this phone call if his testimony previously was it was so urgent that i talked to trump because i got to check in with the boss on everything i do and im Going Forward at the Stormy Daniels payment and hes got to approve it. So im calling him now. Its going to be a quick phone call. I called Keith Schiller because i want to talk to the boss. If that was so urgent and in his mind why is he obsessing about a 14 yearold boy who was allegedly prank calling him, and contacting Keith Schiller saying, i got to talk up to you about this weird phone number that shows up. Its not i got to talk to the boss or something really urgent. And calling Keith Schiller and talking the boss. And then after that conversation is over shell say new chiller. Oh, by the way, theres his phone number is not it seems like the 14 yearold boy is the reason hes calling what theyre asking. I mean, you just basically made the defenses case for that. Memories are not perfect. That is exactly what theyre saying to Michael Cohen that your memory is not perfect and you dont remember were exactly that you even spoke to donald trump on this phone goal. I mean, his most devastating line after the texts the 14 yearold was i believe i spoke with mr. Trump. He didnt even double down on it after he was pressed on it. And so that is exactly their entire case here that theyve been saying Michael Cohen, how can you not remember this . But then you remember this phone call with donald trump the best . Florida crossexamination was todd blanche has followup, which was the jury is not interested in what you believe she got objective, doesnt matter those thats the kind of comment that you make. You dont care whether that objection sustained, youre communicating to the journey said that, right . Looking at the jurors absolutely absolutely. Right . I as caitlin, sad luck. I think the issue with Michael Cohen is that particularly when you have animus toward another person which they have demonstrated pretty clearly it is also plausible for the jury to believe that your memory is colored by your desire to see donald trump behind bars. And thats why this moment i think is so devastating because he is so Crystal Clear on everything that is bad for Donald Trumps case. But on everything from the mundane to other things that apparently at the time he was really worked up about. He cannot remember it. And that is both the problem from the cases perspective, but i just think in general from Michael Cohen, this is the issue with him, is that you cannot always be sure yes, hes been telling the story for six years, but in those six years, hes been trying to get donald trump convicted of crimes is also fascinating. The guardian today, because i had not, i must admit i have not listed come to Michael Cohens podcasts. May of culpa but it was shocking, but it was play a moment of it was playing in the courtroom today, and it was so fascinating because, you know, Michael Cohens testimony has been very even keeled and demean very rational, very yes, maam. No, sir. All this and suddenly they played this thing and theres a guys screaming in the room like using know, it just know my nose regular hi somebody who does a podcast. I was like, is this his actual normal speaking voice to podcasts . Because its literally yelling and its clearly written down because hes speaking in a way thats not so hes written down these yells, like its gotta be all in caps. I mean, it was shocking. I was like twain between that just the volume of him and compared with his very close demeanor that was i was like, whoa, i mean, it fills the courtroom. I dont know if somebody who turned up the volume. Its loud. I was like did they is this intentionally too loud . Im told we have a clip of the pockets. Lets play it and play it loud. It was quite loud in them the courtroom. Am i gotta tell you thats your volume i truly hope that this man ends up in prison. It will bring back the year that i lost or the damage done to my family but revenge is a dish best served cold. And you Better Believe i want this man to go down and rot and for what he did to me and my family so thats what was played played in court a little biased. I dont know but there is i think a fundamental question about Michael Cohen as a witness, which is is the jury going to listen to him . And the cross and the history of lying and say, the hell with this guy. I mean, just write him off or are they going to say, look, hes had this traumatic experience. He went to prison because he thought he was helping donald trump. Lets parse each statement and see whether those statements are corroborated. And this is really i think the prosecutions great hope, and this is why they examined him the way they did on direct, which was scaffolding his testimony with Test Messages phone records. Now the big problem of width today is those Text Messages came back to bite him, at least in this one exchange, but it is also worth mentioning that he had years of contact with donald trump. Its not in debate that whether he could whether he was in touch with him if hes mistaken about this one phone call, one prosecution responses. So why not . He was in touch for ten years, but its not just this one phone call, one. You also to remember there are two attorneys on this jury who are listening to Michael Cohen admit that he agrees its unethical for an attorney to record their client. Theyre listening to that. Todd blanche is trying to catch him. In other inconsistencies. He seems like hes about to catch him in and out on monday. This is something im watching because he asked him about Recording Conversations with reporters, which Michael Cohen said he did pretty often, but he said he stopped after the 2016 campaign and then todd blanche pressed him on that. He said, i would have to check and todd blanche responded with this knowing tone. Will well check together in a minute . So it seems like hes just kept catching. Maybe it doesnt change the actual documents, but it could really undermine the credibility. Kaitlan, this is a controversial view, but attorneys are also human beings and they understand that sometimes people do stupid things. Sometimes people say when things, when theyre angry and they, they hold grudges that doesnt mean every word they say is a lie and thats the challenge for the prosecutors to say, look, we know he lied and they brought out a lot of that on direct. Unfortunately, for them, not everything. I mean, they certainly should have brought out this whole thing about the 14yearold, but this wasnt a total surprise. To the jury. I suspect obviously, i dont thats why this case from day one, starting with david pecker and the aug august 2015 meeting in trump tower where you have pecker agreeing that there is going to be this activity, this catch and kill activity to benefit the Campaign Going all throughout the testimony with those corroborating notes in Allen Weisselbergs hand. There. This is one tile in a mosaic. And even today, cohen was much stronger in the afternoon and the jury does not necessarily fixate on that one moment is also three because all during the i mean, for until the exciting in bright before the lunch break, i kept sitting there wondering, well, all todd blanche is talking about is just laws by Michael Cohen about things in general, not anything to do with a document that was signed about Stormy Daniels or anything to do with stormy downs or anything to do with Hush Money Payments and to me it felt very meandering and you know, was like, okay, yeah, we know the guy has lied a lot and thats except for one thing and thats another Blockbuster Area of this testimony, which i think is extraordinary, doesnt seem to be something many people have picked up on and that is the following. It is an extraordinary thing in my experience for a cooperating witness to take the stand and admit under oath at our trial that they pleaded guilty to something that they didnt commit in other words, per during themselves at the time of the plea allocution. Now, i know theres all kinds of stuff here about replaying the how many times can he be on truthful and how many times is the untruthful under oath . But i have to tell you. I mean, at least as i learned, being a prosecutor, if you have a cooperating witness that cant Tell The Truth at a plea allocution. That means that that witness is basically worthless he testified he lied to the judge wright in this prior case and his plea was voluntary. And then when he was when todd blanche asked him, well what do you think the judge would have thought of . You wouldnt dont you think the judge would like to have known you were lying . I mean, dont you think that would have impact . His decision and it would have and Michael Cohen was like, i dont know how he said the judge was in on it. The assistant us attorneys i was in on it. I im pretty and the top lunches for crossexamination. So basically, whenever you get into a problem, its always blame somebody else, blame President Trump, blame the judge, blamed the justice department, blamed the Us Attorneys Office from district of new york, blame congress. I mean, how many places do you have to go where this guy has lied . Many times under oath and its always somebody elses fault. Thats not his fault. I mean, ill get to tell you in summation thats pretty powerful evidence to a jury to say you shouldnt believe anything. This guy says. And if you have to rely on his testimony in any fashion whatsoever in order to convict donald while trump iee an order to fix Donald Trumps intent, you have a reasonable doubt. You cant have anything else. But a reasonable doubt and yet in that moment, when blanche tried to push him and said, so youre not accepting responsibility, said, i do accept responsibility. He stood up to max, but he doesnt accept responsibility. Norm for the most important thing which is hes saying that he didnt plead guilty to a crime and coincides 20 saying no he is say that he accepts responsibility. He was the meaning is so i dont seem to accept responsibility. But the phrase he uses, the phrase, i accept full responsibility constant and there cant be any daylight there because if there is daylight that is a huge problem for the prosecution to get a break and were gonna have a lot more Kara Scannell. Thank you so much as always, everyone elses im going to stay here silver com we just received the image, the defense used of that texts cohen sent to schiller about the crank color will show you that plus john berman is through todays transcripts from roger two, we there yet so many ways to say life ready while it happen. Thats 3605 by Whole Foods Market power comes from within and smart leinz knows that protecting the vehicle starts from the inside. Our custom bit leinz are designed to provide full coverage from whatever life brings. Make this smart choice. Choose smart liner thats how you make, like it never even happened. Serve for your mom gutters can cause big problems fast until now, call a33 lee filter today for your free gutter inspection, ive had terrible Flooding Problems on my porch. Now i understand why right now, lee filter is offering a free inspected on your schedule. 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They say we should stop eating so much meat so we made meet out of plants because we arent quitters impossible norman, bad news. I never graduated from med school. What . But the good news is. Xfinity mobile just got even better now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. Plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. I gotta get this deal. Thats like 20 a month per unlimited line. I dont want to miss that. Thats amazing doc. Mobile savings are calling. Visit xfinitymobile. Com to learn more. Doc . Raise join me and trying. Com short time ago we received images of that Text Exchange between Michael Cohen and then kennedy trumps bodyguard, Keith Schiller, the defense attorney has showed today, again, it was approved. Their assertion that cohen did not ask to speak to trump about Stormy Daniels as he tests fight earlier in the week, but he wanted to talk to the bodyguard actually to Keith Schiller about a crank call or a series of crank calls. This the key moment quoting cohens taxed, who can i speak to regarding Harassing Calls to myself in office, the dope forgot to block his call on one of them the call was these calls for allegedly by 14yearold after that, Keith Schiller texts Michael Cohen, call me and surely after minute, seconds later, theres a call from Michael Cohen to Keith Schiller, which he had previously testified was called to get to trump to tell them Important News that he was moving ahead on the payments to Stormy Daniels hello. Any claim that trump had to agree, were joined now by john berman, who has more on this moment, although the full text of this crossexamination that so that was so momentous is not out. We have almost all of todays transcript except this part. As you can imagine, which is very frustrated, but answering, you did a great job explaining it based on what you and others the report from inside the courtroom. Look he Todd Blanche One after Michael Cohen on this. Michael cohen basically said, i know that keith was with mr. Trump at the time and there was more potentially than this. In other words, more potentially than me just talking to keith about the kid. Maybe i talked to him him about Something Else then he said, i always ran everything by the boss immediately. And in this case, it would have been saying everything has been taken care of, its been resolved in any ultimately had too many because based on what was going on, based on the Text Messages and so on, based on the other Text Messages about Stormy Daniels matter, that is how we came to that that he talked to trump about Stormy Daniels on this phone call, it was all the other things. Blanche challenged cohen to confirm that his Trial Testimony was based on materials prosecutors showed him in preparation for questioning. This was an important moment because then blanche saying, well, wait a minute so youre only testifying to this phone call because prosecutors showed you a call log that had this phone call and youre claiming that that basically jarred your memory. This is the setup of this crucial phone set up to the crossexamination well, hello, and he said, yes, that refreshed my recollection. Well, we do it just didnt refresh his recollection of the 14yearolds color. Can i ask a question . What what is the ultimate significance of lets assume he just lied about all this but does this mean that donald trump didnt know that he was, he was reimbursing. Know, but its what is claiming this was one of the examples. This was a key moment when he directly told donald trump im going ahead with these payments and trump approved it and he trolled can do it. But but we we have abundant proof, including trumps own words in a tweet, in a, in a Financial Disclosure form from the white house where he says, i reimbursed Michael Cohen for so why is that you have Additional Communications the next day with cohen davidson, howard, and pecker, and then you have to direct calls on the 26th at 8 26 a. M. And 8 34 a. M. And that was when he was wrong and that was when he was making the trend thats where actually the transcript of that call two days later where colvin is asked, did you call mr. Trump before you went upset of set up the account to make the transfer. He goes, yes. What in substance that you discuss with them on these two calls cohen said in direct, i wanted to ensure once again, he approved of what i was doing because theyre required approval from him on all of this should also point out earlier that morning, i guess before that, he texted the Keith Schiller back pursuing the family of the 14yearold phone call or he would seems very obsessed on this milk was saying, please dont do this. Im 14 years, literally when morning that moment happened and then they went to break, which is a great moment for the defense to end on, obviously, then they come back in the room and todd blanche greeted Michael Cohen when he was at the witness stand. His boys is voice was barely audible he he said good afternoon, mr. Cohen and Michael Cohen responded mr. Blanche, but you could barely hear it in the courtroom and obviously hes speaking into a microphone. And then the text did not been redacted when you were still in the courtrooms . I dont believe they showed them on the screen. They redacted the what they needed to during the lunch break. So then they put them up on the screen and made Michael Cohen read what he was texting this 14yearold that when the kids said he was 14, allegedly the Michael Cohen responded, well, you need to tell your parent or guardian that the Secret Service is now responsible for handling this, and it just kinda this, this movement where the jury doesnt often show a lot and they clearly were experiencing the same had the same look that you had when you came because he was are for obvious reasons lets not forget. This is from 2016 were in 2024. This is eight years ago. Now refreshing somebodys recollection with a text message well do you really remember that this is what happened . I mean thats the whole point of the crossexamination. You basically testify here because the prosecution showed you what bunch of documents and stuff and youre telling us what you remember that if you hadnt been shown those documents, you wouldnt be able to tie him anything. I wanted norms point that it wasnt just this one phone call. It was a whole series of phone calls right around this time at exactly the time he is he is transferring the money is that all made up two and no and the testimony that cohen put in in his direct about this call was very general testimony. He was not purporting to remember exactly what was said back and forth. I think i understand the mental excitement of that moment of confrontation, but i think in the larger scheme of things, this gigantic mosaic that corroborates Michael Cohen the lack of any other explanation for what trump was doing the later corroborating statement, the law aag series of witnesses, the many documents i dont believe the jury is going to seize on it if you add 1234 knockout punches, yes. You would allayed co and flat. This was just one here. It comes out. It was my heres my thing about where about at this statement. And also just about Michael Cohen in general theres abundant evidence to donald trump news about the Hush Money Payments, but that is not the issue here. The issue is the falsification of Business Records from my understanding of the evidence, theres really one key moment where Michael Cohen basically makes the case that donald trump understood that it was going to be fraudulently put on the books as legal fees, and that was a meeting that he had with Allen Weisselberg and donald trump. There are only three people who know what goes on there. One of them is the defendant, the other one is not going to testify, and the other one is Michael Cohen and so if im a lawyer, unless you believe Michael Cohen with regard to that, that evidence and the defense is going to make the argument and summation his testimony is worthless, and these are the examples and hes trying to gild the lily and he, hes testifying and making it up unless you can believe Beyond A Reasonable Doubt that that conversation happen and theres proof of that it happened the way that my the way he said all right. Half because its only that way which would prove Donald Trumps intent. Theres no way that a jury should convict on that evidence unanimously, Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. Thats going to be and that is why the doubt that is put on the table by Michael Cohens recollection of a conversation that he describes as being pivotal is look, i mean, the bar is so low for the defense to just say to convince one juror that there is not enough evidence. Im not saying that the preponderance of evidence is the donald trump knew what was going on and that there is a Common Sense View that one could have that he understood that this was not going to be put on the books correctly. But in this court it takes much less than that to get a juror to say, i dont know if i can believe this guy about this one really critical conversation that has to do with how the records, how the payments were structured so that the records could be falsified fight thats the main problem i think right now for the prosecution will have more transcripts later. John berman. Thanks so much. Coming up. Jury may view a potential witness for the defense to tell as five before congress yesterday, disputing Michael Cohens own Sworn Testimony in hush money trial. Lets say why choose asleep numbers smart that can keep me warm when im cold. Wait, no, im always hot. Sleep number. Does that can i make my side . Its i think my sayyed firmer squeeze number. Does that can help with sleep better and better speak number does that 94 of smart sleepers report better sleep now say 50 of the speed Number Limited Edition smart bad plus 0 interest with months shut down and sleep number. 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This is as good as gold in any garden. If people only knew that it really is about the dirt, your dirt nerd huge painfree absorbing for close captioning brought to you by rule or law, iconic brands up to 70 off retail at roulette law. Com, at rubella youll never pay for sees the deals on top before there south without all that. Today as weve been discussing Michael Cohens credibility came under attack today is trumps defense attorney todd blanche grilled him over key Text Messages and a phone call on october 2016, while the prosecution would like to present, cohen is a reformed liar. Their new questions or the race today about some of the tests good morning. He gave in this trial earlier this week. Theres also includes cohens testimony on tuesday when he claimed that he was given advice by attorney Robert Costello in 2018, and that costello was using his connections to Rudy Giuliani. And by extension, foreign President Trump to Pressure Cohen not to flip on wednesday, castello appeared before the house subcommittee on the socalled weaponization of the federal government to dispute that the story he told yesterday was that Rudy Giuliani and i wish somehow conspiring to try and keep him quiet to try and keep them from flipping. Thats the term we use in the trade for cooperating thats ridiculous. I asked for a meeting with a district attorney, bragg because i wanted to go in there, let him look Me In The Eye and let me explain all of the stuff that we had on Michael Cohen that showed that hes an inveterate liar. Lets amazing. This is guy. He was representing him and hes calling his client and inveterate liar. Dont once he actually technically representing him pretty thats what i thats certainly what i thought because fellow emails or the a, by the way the defense may make call him now. Yes. Although is it weird . I mean, its weird that they had this testimony to get this testimony. Apparently, the privilege was waived. I dont know exactly how that happened. Thats what i would be pretty unusual to call a witness. Two, impeach a another witness on crossexamination. Will see if the judge allows it, but castello, if he comes his emails to cohen are the most extraordinary. Its like a cookbook for Witness Tampering lets exactly like this. So proud, by the way, i forgot to introduce for not as good very and trials are about germany yeah hello, run, i apologize for not what to you. What did you think of today . Look, i mean, he got up, Michael Cohen got absolutely hammered today, but hes a liar, is not a theory of defense. We still dont know what, what is the theory of defense they opened as ive said that, these. Were legitimate legal fees. Theres been no evidence of that. Michael cohen is sticking to the story that i did no legal work them so hemorrhage, Michael Cohen and saying hes a liar, dopa i think the jury thinks he is a liar. Maybe they have questions about some of these phone calls, but theres other Corroborating Evidence and i still dont understand what the theory is, and we all know you have to have a theory of defense if you want to win a criminal case that was jeffrey, your argument all along which is okay. The prosecution has put forth a set of facts, believed them are not what is the Defense Argument exactly . There are certain undisputed facts in this case. The two most important of which are Michael Cohen paid Stormy Daniels 130,000. No one is going to dispute that. The other undisputed fact is that donald trump paid Michael Cohen 420,000. Is there any explanation in front of the jury other than this was a reimbursement for what . For what he paid out. Now, that means that the documents are false. That means that the corporate documents are false the issue in the case is did donald trump no. Or cause those documents to be false that to me is the only disputed issue in this case because the rest of it is just proved. And deborah, you do the other one of that that was raised today. Itll be fascinating to see how the prosecution handles this. Is todd blanche grilled Michael Cohen on what he testified recently was that in 2017, 2018, he was barely doing any legal work for the trump family, but he he never had a retainer well, todd blanche went back and said, ever since you worked at the Trump Organization when he left his law firm in the day he met trump and went to try to get a job there. He never had a retainer. Michael cohen said that was correct. And top lets just trying to make the point where youve never had a retainer, so its not unusual that you didnt have one in 2017 . 2018, but then the question that i had sitting there in the courtroom was when Michael Cohen sent those invoices to Allen Weisselberg. They were paid pursuant to a legal retainer. Its said it on every check we looked at all 11 of them. And so the question i would have for the defense there is okay. Well, then why was he being paid pursuant to a retainer if hes never had there, was no retainer. Its a lie was susan injured that wasnt the issue. The issue is whether theres a Written Retainer agreement, not whether or not theres has been retained. No. He said hes never had a retainer period i was there, todd blanche drill down . Yes. But what he means by that is there was no Written Retainer agreement, but heres he didnt let wasnt by trump aware painter, it should thats kind of a sideshow. Its not like that big a deal really. In the legal field, whether or not you have returner gag, you should have but what legal i think the defense painted themselves into a corner. What did he do and what did donald trump think that he was writing those 35,000 checks for what did he think he was paying for . And we dont have any answer to that do you think it was effective for todd blanche to push the crossexamination . And all the way to the end of the day so that tomorrow theres no cord and norm, you brought this up in the elevator during the lunch break, you were like, hes going to he should push in all the ways that they spend three days ruminating on the lives of Michael Cohen look, you can look at it both ways. In some ways, i think i would have gotten him off the stand and ended with him and just been done then you get some distance and then if youre going to put on a defense case, maybe theyre going to call an expert. They say, i dont know some Election Expert then you start fresh on monday because the prosecution would have had to get get up today and do their redirect. Its a little tougher to do it when you dont have three days to prepare because short the defense is reviewing the transcript, but guess who else the prosecution and theyre going to figure out all the things they need to fix on monday. So what would have been maybe a 45 redirect might be an hourandahalf redirect on monday now that you gave them those three . Yeah, maybe but i dont if the prosecution had done redirect today, they wouldnt have finished. Can i still have gone over next kaitlan is very interesting retainer point. This is one of the most obscure areas of law. The reason which makes your eyes the figure out elevator i dont with yellow early your eyes detainer letters the reason he didnt need a retainer was because he was employed by the Trump Organization. He was inhouse. Inhouse lawyers dont need a Retainer Letter when you leave your new york rules you are supposed to have a Written Retainer. So it is proof that he was not actually doing legal work, that he didnt have a Written Retainer letter. Im thats why hoffinger close that was one of her last points in the closing, youre saying that when he was working for trump at the time didnt need one. He didnt because he didnt have was yeah, he was inhouse at trump or at trump work. So that was one of the many todd blanche lines of questioning that fell flat today, there were times when the jury was bored. There was a lot of questioning too about what Michael Cohen wanted after the election. We know what position he wanted in the white house. There was a lot of testimony about that, which i thought i didnt see it going in one area did you get was interminable and it led no place. Michael Michael Cohen kept saying i wanted to be personal attorney to donald j. Trump, which align he repeated did i like i like your impression i lost interest in halfway and they were claiming know you want to be special counsel and that was afraid his daughter had used. I mean, it just seemed i think it would also be a mistake for the defense to try to weirdly convinced the jury that this wasnt about the election. I mean, that is also one of the things that i think is kind of settled like we know i mean, i look pig say theyre going to call this Election Expert. I think the judge is going to allow them to call. I think its Bradley Smith in his order. He said that they can call him to say, this is how the federal Election Commission works. These are some of the definitions, but theres one definition that i think you need to watch shout for. And what is a personal expense versus a Business Expense . And the election law says, and its 50 to usc three and it says its a personal expense. If you would have made It Irrespective of your campaign. And the argument that theyve been trying to weave in the defense is that he would have made this payment to Stormy Daniels to protect his family, to protect millennia. So i think theyre going to try and argue he would have made this Payment Irrespective of the campaign. Therefore, it is not a Campaign Finance violation. And thats by the way, the federal Election Commission would have agreed know whether therell be able to get that in sounds on but if you had gone to the federal Election Commission and truthfully disclose, we want to make this payment to Stormy Daniels we we want her to go away. We think that it may have some effects on the outcome of the election. Will you approve this as a Campaign Expenditure, the fec wouldve looked at them like, what are you out of your mind . Find so it cant both be what with the prosecutors. It cant both be. Wait a second. This is a concealed Campaign Expenditure if, if the people who make those fine judgments are like wait to note, of course its a personal expense i mean, you know, the john edwards cases essentially a proof of that the john edwards case and it creates an interesting legal issue. And i think thats one reason why you strategize to have those two lawyers on there because theyre gonna be like getting this. Do you think that anything todays proceedings change . What do you think that the jury is thinking about this case and also todd blanche got barry. He did on this. I mean, he called him a liar. He grabbed the microphone like closely like someone like drunk at a party might grab a mic and his voice was loud in the room. He one point said to the jurors, like they dont want to hear whatever du is that effective. I mean, it was it was attention Michael Cohen, its, you know, youve gotta you gotta pay if youre witnesses, you cant you cant just be able in a china shop with everybody. But i think with Michael Cohen, i think it was totally fine. I was a Wedding Singer moment it was written out of has to be all. Thank you so much really fascinating. Natalie, did trumps lawyer, todd blanche raised his voice as i just set a times. He also raised his hand was some dramatic flair to put a visual on the point. My next guest captured some of that, those intense moments well talk to one of the great courtroom artists ahead. Deliveries happen ordered that this happens now that happens, we get out of there are at least two back at the pitch. Lets go be there with ring. There are more and rnc. Com when to leave works all day. So i can keep working on i just want to leave 12 hours of uninterrupted pain relief who do you take the floor and for fast topical pain child iv, x. Welcome to the waiver hood with wave. Finding your style is fine when the music stops grabbing had doesnt matter. Ill go im sorry, carl, this is me and chair form. I dont see you come. 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But if you have a fib, the risk of stroke is always there. If you have one or more symptoms, get checked out, holding off on seeing a doctor wont change whether or not to have eight fifth. But if you do making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. Contacted dr. And learn more at no time to wait that cost in searing crossexaminati on of Michael Cohen, say down trumps lawyer, todd blanche grilled cohen on all the times he previously gone under oath, raised his right hand and then lied. This was one of those combative moments captured by the ultra talented veteran drink courtroom sketch artist jane rosenburg. And were very glad that she is back with us tonight youve got to be exhausted. I appreciate you coming in to talk about the day i mean, too many people in the courtroom, this was an exciting de with the crossexamination toward the end of it, you capture this moment of todd blanche raising his hand that was in his crossexamination of Michael Cohen, and he was repeatedly saying, youve sworn in a courtroom, youve raised your right hand when you, saw that, had you already started the sketch or did you suddenly have to shift and start a whole new sketch of todd blanche raising his arms, didnt know this was going to be the moment. I did not know itd be the moment and i did start another one with him leaning over the podium like this. He does a lot. Then he raised his hand. I had to switch that so so can you just erase an organ and so many times he raised this you sworn to Tell The Truth then what did it mean . And in fact im certain point the judge seemed to sort of be like, okay, we got let me lets move it along but did you have to like erase the arm or just start a whole new scan know, i braced the arm i mean, it doesnt always work, but thats what i did this time because i had so much else already in there. I felt, oh, i think i can just put that arm up. Its there now. Pull it up. Youve heard a lot of crime crossexaminations. Did you think did this one register to you in any particular way no, i dont you didnt think it was as excited like i havent seen many, so i thought the end was incredibly ross is off exciting and it should be lawyers get really excited when theyre going to cross somebody. I think thats why they call it the crucible of crossexaminati on. Blanche is not really wellpracticed in a crossexamination. I mean, he i think he would even acknowledge that. And so today was really a big test for him and for him to kinda have this disbelieving tone in his voice is Michael Cohen was answering these questions, raising his hands, raising his voice kinda this high pitched voice at times to say, no one can believe what youre saying almost like ticket times, like are you kidding me . Yeah. Id say are you finished now, please dont give a speech i understand your characterization, but we just read it nothing on that letter is not the truth. And ill just say one moment that i noticed today was after a break, they were walking back in the room. Normally trumps strides in by himself. Hes at the front of the room. You can comes in alone and then everyone trails and bind him. He and todd blanche, were walking sidebyside, kinda talking to one another. You never really see trump like that with his attorney walking into the room . No. Youre right. Hes always behind him. Todd blanche, i will say that in some of those more shrill todd blanche moments, including the two at the end where he confronted cohen and there was an objection and the objection was sustained. Those were moments that the jury paid. I thought hard to discern attention. They were very attentive. You couldnt read them. They were visibly annoyed with blanche. I saw Eye Rolling A really looking away, it was too much and it detracted. It shows his lack of experience because it actually detracted from the point he was making. He would have been better to let the revelation that he had at elicited from Cohen Breathe rather than being objected to and so so loud and unpleasant as an added, it looked to me like the jury was not liking todd blanche very much in those moments. Well editorializing while youre crossexamining a witness is usually a bad idea. I mean, thats not what youre there to do. Your bad from a legal standpoint or just from a product jury impact jury impact standpoint. The jury is not interested in your editorializing. They wanted to try to get to the facts just like every jury wants to get to the facts, but that moment with the hand raised or whatever im sure that you dated, your work and probably noted the time to write someday. Thatll probably appeal here on todd blanches office wall from short for phi there you go i love critiquing lawyers as much as the next person, but every time ive talked to jurors almost always what you hear from them is oh, the lawyers were fine, but the evidence was x and they, you know, they dont parse that performance of the attorneys as much as we do. And i think this is one of the great things about the jury system is that i think the evidence actually matters a lot more than and the performance of the lawyer for the person who does parse the lawyers is definitely trump. Yeah. And i mean, if our friend Arthur Adalja was here, he would say trump at his other attorney, Susan Necheles, has way more experience in doing across then todd blanche, but once that moment happened, i was like, okay, thats why todd blanche is doing this crossexamination. He trump is a very you know, he likes to archetype people and just sort of put them in their categories. I can imagine this is speculation, but i can only imagine him thinking wanting to have somebody with the physicality of todd blanche, who is actually a very kind of broad shouldered type of person to be able to do that kind of aggressive in your face, challenging of Michael Cohen that Susan Necheles is a incredible professional, but shes thats not how she conducts herself in her doing her job. And stylistically, its a choice whether it will matter to the jury. I dont know, but it probably matters. I think thats hi theater moment and although jeffries correct to point out that its still ultimately about facts but high theater moments, people are human. Facts are not everything people, when it comes to jury deliberations, in my experience, those are emotional moments in addition to fact gathering moments and theater trials are theater after all, the theater matters matters lawyers, without theater and you can go to sleep thats not a problem with his kano jan. Thank you so much. Always we return with Michael Cohens former or attorney and current Legal Advisor Lending Davis has taken whether his client dug a hole for himself or did well for himself. And also, its taken on the prosecution today, going into the final stages of this trial will be right back et for sure investments. We may look like other money managers, but were different. You cant be that different. 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