Transcripts For CNNW The 20240703

I dont want you to move. Im gonna miss you so much. You realize well have Internet Waiting for us at the new place, right . Oh, we know. We just like making a scene. Transferring your services has never been easier. Get connected on the day of your move with the xfinity app. Can i sleep over at your new place . Can katie sleep over tonight . Sure, honey this generation is so dramatic move with xfinity. Feel better with liquid glass, grabbed liquid labs in the Walmart Vitamin Aisle today, the source with kaitlan collins. Next it is just passed 9 00 p. M. Here in new york today, the defense in the form prisons, Hush Money Trial exploded the tightly crafted narrative of the prosecution in scored hit against a key witness whose credibility has been issued from the start and Michael Cohen were a lot of us were sitting in the courtroom along with a room full of people were watching the crossexamination very closely. It turned into a methodical this section of code when by defense attorney todd blanche blanche presented Text Messages between cohen and trumps bodyguard, Keith Schiller from october 24, 2016. Now on monday, cone to characterize these exchanges with schiller as a way to just to get to then candidate trump, to get trump on the phone and get final approval for the Stormy Daniels payment scheme. Instead, the texts do not speak of that. Rather they show that cohen wanted schillers help with a 14yearold crank color who had apparently been antagonizing cohen for days are short time ago, cohens texts with the 14yearold were shown that were shown in court were released cohen text. This number has just been sent to Secret Service for your ongoing and continuous harassment to both my cell as well as to the organizations main line the person then responds, it wasnt me. My friend told me to call. Im sorry for this. I wont do it again. Cohen then replies, you will need to explain this to Secret Service as we have been receiving dozens of these Harassing Calls over the past three days. If you are a minor, i suggest you notify your parent or guardian the person responds in all caps. I didnt do it. And then texts. Im 14 so bizarre sorry. Were joking. Former federal former federal prosecutor elie honig and Michael Cohens former attorney currently go adviser. Lanny davis. So were you were you surprised the defense . Appeared effective, and undermine cohens credibility about that phone call with Keith Schiller. I mean, when he testified earlier in the week that call was portrayed as it was called Keith Schiller to get to trump. There was no mention of this 14yearold and wanting to talk to Keith Schiller to trace the number and figure out some way to get back with this person so no, i wasnt surprised and i dont think the jury is going to be persuaded by those kinds of mistakes are making. Michael cohen, the accused, and everybody having fun calling him a liar on television. This case is about, as i first was introduced to it by the price securities by firstday this case is about documents testimony, and corroboration. Michael cohen is a confirming witness donald trump loves to change the subject in his lawyers love to change the subject. They want Michael Cohen to be the one whos indicted and accused. So let me just remind you what weve seen in evidence so far. Im not going to speculate or downgraded juries focus on facts. I dont disparage juries, but im also not a trial lawyer, so maybe travelers who do Disparage Jury Juries are correct, but i think that you have to remember the first element of this crime was corroborated. You dont need Michael Cohen . Yeah. David pecker you add hope hicks everybody knew that the money being paid to Stormy Daniels was for the campaign. It wasnt to protect him from being embarrassed in front of his wife. Thats what the testimony has been so far and the second most important part of the climb is did donald trump lie when he said there were legal fees . Well, there a hot document, meaning a document thats very powerful and the handwriting verified to be Allen Weisselberg, in which he has three categories of money that michael spent on behalf of donald trump won was 130,000 written down in his handwriting times two and the three categories to edit up to 420,000 divided by let me just do it because weve gone this is all very clear. But Michael Cohen sorry Michael Cohen is clearly important to the prosecution i mean, hes a critical witness for the prosecution in order. I mean, hes really the only one who can speak to whether donald trump was aware of how this stuff was going to be build the full nature of this scheme. Hes the one who gives the testimony, which is why theyre devoting so much time and taking the risk of putting him on the stand. I know it doesnt go well for Michael Cohen if hes shown to be lying i mean, youre not doesnt it seem like today at the very least in the end of this morning session, he seemed to be caught in the very least, a mistake in memory hey about this phone call that he had just testified, not some old lie, but this testimony from in front of this jury isnt that a big deal i cant predict. I dont think juries will find it a big deal compared to the corroborating evidence of Allen Weisselbergs document that proves that if i was going to say use its worth 20 divided by 12 equals 35,000. Those are the checks that are sitting president each month wrote to Michael Cohen. Its the mad stupid i was going to do a joke before anderson about James Carville is the economy stupid . Its the mat that Allen Weisselberg, that document peruse these could not have been legal fees. He divided did port 20 by 12. He came up with 35,000 and the sitting president in the oval office wrote Michael Cohen, 35,000 checks and on his personal bank account and paid him 35,000 those werent legal fees if theyre not legal fees, they were reimbursements that makes it a crime. So those are the documents thats the testimony of third parties, including hope hicks. Very favorable to mr. Trump. And so whether Michael Cohen made mistakes or is shouted at by hello or, or whatever happens that is entertaining or a gotcha moment, which i can definitely understand. Anderson, the documents speak for themselves testimony speaks for themselves, and we know that the jury will ultimately here the prosecution, some the case focus on the weisselberg argument. Do you think they never said im sorry. Go ahead, caitlin lanny, its kaitlan that answer that you just gave to anderson. There was a look a little over a minute, close to 90 seconds. That is how long the phone call was with Keith Schiller that night. And what Michael Cohen argued today is that he simultaneous so weve talked about the okay for the hush money deal and these print calls that he was getting from a 14yearold. I mean, is the jury really going to find that credible that in 96 seconds they had both of those conversations i think it could be that the jury will hold that against Michael Cohen is not being truthful, but its not going to change where i said this case is about documents that speak for themselves. The weisselberg document is more powerful for the jury to look at to prove that donald trump lied, whos by the way the one whos indicted, not michael cohn whether michael us about holding lanny, thats right. But you also mentioned your the other night that Michael Cohen spent over 100 hours with prosecutors, not just this office when this district attorney, but in general, in the new york and new york did these prank calls ever come up in those conversations . And this is what he was worried about that night. So you know, im a lawyer Behind Closed Doors with prosecutors. I wasnt with the federal prosecutors these prosecutors. I cant answer that question. Let me just say that the story that Keith Schiller is saying now, lets see if he testifies and then well see whos believable. And thats up to the jury. But i also am affecting donald trump to testify because he said i would testify. Hes never taken it back. So maybe well get a chance to see what donald trump says. Hes not exactly known for truthfulness, but no, michael is definitely suffered these things and arrows when he came to me, he was known to be a liar for donald trump i dont want to go on another 90 seconds, katelyn, sorry but youre allowed to go 90 seconds. I do. Different to it as a question as well. But did you think they should want to call them . I mean, it sounds like what youre saying lanny, is that all this evidence was already in do you really think they shouldnt have called Michael Cohen as a witness i think they had to because hes a corroborating witness to testimony, documents, emails, Text Messages, the timeline. So he is the narrator confirming what is already in evidence. Now if they attack the narrator, they changed the topic i can make it about the narrator confirming. And of course, the drama of the case is made by Michael Cohen. And when a lawyer shouts at him, you lie. I wanted to see if he puts up a witness and well see whos telling the truth. But of course, he had to testify jeffrey, but all hes doing is confirming the testimony of others and documents dont lie he has a question im sorry, i dont have a question. I have something to say. Oh, elisa Michael Cohen got blown apart today. Lets be real clear about that. And what was different about this than all his other lives that hes told over the years, all his things he pled guilty to his leinz, the congress is this goes to the heart of his testimony. Prosecutors, by the way, whatever happened to the burden of proof, where are these Defense Lawyers saying whos got a better story . Its not whos got a better story. That prosecutors have to prove their case Beyond A Reasonable Doubt if the jury decides Michael Cohen lied, they have every right to reject his testimony. This case is over theres only two possibilities for what happened today. Michael cohen lied about this meeting which seems to be a conclusion that a lot of people were in the courtroom or draw or drawing or he made a massive mistake. But you know it when youre a prosecutor and youre putting your star witness on, you dont get a whoop. See, you dont get an oops. We messed up. They prepared Michael Cohen to an inch of his life. Lanny davis said hundred plus hours, they went through everything with them. They saw that phone call 8 02 p. M. Michael console. Yeah. Thats oh, yeah. Yeah. Ghraieb to badly. Its reflect on your operation cooperation. They miss those texts. Prosecutor screwed up because if they had seen those texts, lex poorly on the prosecutions not this is not just about how a jury feels about Michael Cohen. This is a very sad thing for the prosecution and ultimately what youre going to hear in summation is all this nonsense about witnesses and so forth if if the jury doesnt believe that the prosecution was wellfounded and starch to hate the governments case this is an area where the prosecution you know, overlooked something major. And missed the boat or sponsored something without taking him through this and try to turn this conversation into more than it really was, which is to Say Something other than it really was thats not just a problem for the witness. Thats a problem for the process that is true. But ellie, i was there, Michael Cohen did not get blown apart. They landed one distinct minority. I talked to people when i was there alone. I would feel the same way they landed one punch on his shirt that is its not enough in a crossexamination like this, youve got to land multiple punches. This is a witness. Now let me speak unless your job is a witness who had bonded with this jury, it is a witness who has been corroborated by more than 18 days of Trial Testimony by other witnesses. Many Haast Delta Cohen positive for trump. Theres a larger mosaic of evidence. Now, ive gone on for 90 seconds how much want to make that 0. 2 . You see how much you can pack into 90 seconds. There is room to talk about a 14yearold frank color Hush Money Payment on cable but this was a enough norman. Lets say possible by certainly not enough, but but ellies point is, whatever happened to Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and the presumption of entity that governments room, this simple cases plants is not enough to create reasonable doubt across the entire case. It was one time that blanche tagged him. Did he tagged them . Yes. Was it a punch on the chin . Yes. Did he knocked Michael Cohen out . No. Cohen stood his ground. He said in there, will you say you lied . I did not lie. And cohen was much stronger in the afternoon the prosecution was ahead on points. Its a closer case now, they needed a knockout punch. They what would a knock out to be, if not, that would tell me what would be your series of lies. And it would be shall make you need checking Michael Cohen would be getting him to retrench. He didnt back off his point and your norm, no ones listening would you, norm eisen send a man to prison take away his liberty based on the testimony of Michael Cohen this is not bow yes or no. Unlike unlike the witnesses on the stand, i dont have to accept that your yes or no insistence. Are they this is not about hope this testimony, as we have jury sloan. They get. To decide vast amount of operation for Michael Cohen. One bad answer is not going to sink because the case and let me let me agree with for a sec im. Going to agree with norm for a second. Its a way past 90 seconds. There is substantial corroboration for parts of this transaction, but ultimately, let me ask you this. I actually dont know. Im interested in your answer. If the jury decides gets back in that Deliberation Room says were not going to credit Michael Cohen eliminate him, pull him out of the case. Is there enough left to convict know okay so theres the problem im going to go back to lenny. Lenny, youre at a disadvantage because youre on remote, so its hard with this. So i know youre probably chomping and the i want to give you 90 seconds and then we got go but first of all totally shocked at elie honig makes declarative statements of guilt. Its just shocking, but no surprise there. Thank you, ellie, what kind of normal thank you. Is this . Thank you thank you norman, for reminding everybody that michael has stood up very well. And if youre a juror you can see an imperfect witness and still look at facts as some lawyers said, they dont look at back. So let me just end by this Note Corroborating testimony on the money being about the campaign is nearly 100 . And thats what Michael Cohen has testified to. The jury doesnt have to believe im on that. We have david pecker. We have hope hicks, we have others on the issue of whether they were legal fees or reimbursements, which is what the key second element of the crime is whether they were falsely large as legal fees. We do know from Allen Weisselbergs handwriting that he took a number doubled it, and divided it by 12 as James Carville would say, its the mat stupid theres nothing about legal fees and that math so those two elements of the crime have been proven Michael Cohen can be attack all that you all rightfully might say that he wasnt perfect. But theres no doubt that weisselberg wrote in his own handwriting 420,000 divided by 12, and that 420 from three buckets of money doubled up because of income tax thats the case. And whatever you say about Michael Cohen, he has stood up to corroborate corroborate is a corroborating witness. Thats my view. Lanny davis. I appreciate your time and norm eisen as well. Thank you, norm as gripping a court with you coming up well examine how the former president s defense team tried to tried to punch holes and Michael Cohens testimony continually throughout the day will finally just got the full transcript. 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We now get more control of Production Efficiencies and greater agility with a custom private five the network, our customers get what they want when they want it. Now, or even smarter and are and improve hearthealthy rush to walmart and find total im someones are 40 in washington and this is cnn moments go, weve got the full transcript from todays testimony, including that moment about the Text Exchange between Michael Cohen, trumps bodyguard, Keith Schiller that define the trial today. John berman, joint us now. So what else have you found . All right. So we have the transcript now of that moment, it begins with the Text Messages that you showed before Michael Cohen text Keith Schiller, who can i speak to regarding phone calls to my cell and office the dope forgot to block one of them. So that was at 7 48. This is todd blanche saying this. And by the way, the importance so that is he has testified that he was calling Keith Schiller to get to trump quickly because he had to get approval to move forward on the Stormy Daniels blanches walking through here at 8 02. He said, call me, i can put it up back again. Hes putting the text up at 8 01 is one. He leaves that voicemail. Michael cohen says, yes blanche says you call it back at 8 02 for one minute and 36 seconds. Kaitlan collins with the clock there at 8 00 for you text in the number of the 14 yearold who was prank calling you, correct . Cohen says i did, yes immediately checks you back within a few seconds. He said, okay, blend and then cohen says, yes sir. Blanche says the very next morning at 7 58, you say hey, did you reach the family . Cohen says, yes, sir. Blanche says, take it down now heres the question here. When you testified on tuesday that you had a specific recollection that that one minute and 36 second phone call on a total 24th was not with Keith Schiller that you called Keith Schiller any past the phone to President Trump, you finalize the deal with Stormy Daniels and you said, were going to move forward and he said yes, because you kept them informed all the time. That was your testimony, right . Michael cohen says thats correct. Blanche says that was a lie. You were actually talking to mr. Schiller about the fact youre getting Harassing Phone Calls from a 14yearold, correct . Cohen says part of it was the 14 yearold, but i know that keith was with mr. Trump at the time and there was more than potentially just this. Thats what i recall based upon the documents, i reviewed, it goes on i mean, blend says five minutes ago, i asked you if you remembered Harassing Phone Calls and you said no and then i refresh your recollection. Its totally fair or if you dont remember, but now your testimony is that you are testifying truthfully on tuesday to a oneminute and 36 second phone call and you had enough time in that one minute and 36 seconds to update mr. Schiller about all the problems you are having with those Harassing Phone Calls and also update President Trump on the status of the Stormy Daniels situation. Ill stop here but it went on to say that it might have been just a few words to President Trump, like moving forward, Stormy Daniels. Is that okay . From set agreed might have been just that, but cohen says based upon the records that i was able to review in light of everything that was going on. I believe i also i believe i also spoke to mr. President trump and told him everything regarding the Stormy Daniels matter was being worked on. And its going to be resolved. Blanche says, were not asking for your belief. This jury doesnt want to hear what you think happened, then theres an objection which is sustained. You see Michael Cohen getting caught. Theyre good. Can you go about this when Michael Cohen realizes that hes in trouble here with the first, the first page you read this one here. When he says Michael Cohen realizes hes caught. Now he says part of it was the 14 yearold first time hes ever said that on crossexamination, hes never mentioned the 14yearold. This has never been in testimony and it didnt even seem like and what todd blanche later revealed is he wasnt briefed on the 14yearold. The prosecutor is to your point, they didnt catch it. Heres part two of the retreat by Michael Cohen. And there was more than potentially just this potential i mean, why its so dangerous for a prosecutor to try to rely on testimony from some but certainly from the federal governments perspective is not somebody they would ever have put on trial. This is dangerous stuff because stuff like this happens, mistakes are made and if theyre made, your point, thats devastating. Can i can i just ask myosin to the contrary, notwithstanding what thats what devastating what i am curious about and im genuinely curious. I dont mean, isnt it also true that he had other conversations with trump about completing this transaction, including some the next day so even if you believe that hes completely wrong about this conversation is that devastating . I mean, by the way, youre saying he had other conversations according to him. Well, the other phone calls, including phone calls that were not with Keith Schiller that were that were two Donald Trumps phone number. Right. But but hes testifying about what the content of those phone calls. So you dont if you believe if you can about this one, there are entitled to believe that hes line about all the other ones, right . Theyre entitled to disbelieve his entire testimony. And thats and thats the instruction. Therell be given absolutely. Right. But but my question is if hes mistaken about this, isnt it possible that he is genuinely mistaken about this . And there are other phone calls. I mean, he was obviously involved often these negotiations is a is it believable that he had all these negotiations and didnt discuss them with trump. I mean, that seems clearly yeah. Im feel like a broken record, but its we know the payments were made. We know that they were hush money trump is not on trial for paying Stormy Daniels hes hes just not and that the end of the day, they have to get to this point where the jury is like, okay, we believe that donald trump understood that these were going to be falsely recorded on his Business Records. Thats the only thing really at this point that matters. If you also believe i think as i think most rational people du, that trump cared about the election that was a factor, but i just i think its a credibility thing. 100 about Michael Cohen. Do you believe Michael Cohen when he says he was in a room with Allen Weisselberg and they talked about x, y, and z. Do you believe and what he said . He was on the phone those things might all be true, but it hinges on that one guy because all the other people involved are not on, especially in a situation here where the prosecution made a mistake because what it looks like is that they were trying to sponsor a narrative with this Witness Employ wants the jury gets a hold of that. Thats troubling. Thats trouble for the prosecution. The room today, and clearly after the morning session in that moment and then they took a break, todd blanche says, now a good time for a break. And so they had that lunch break, but an hour or so for they came back in trumps domain rome was so different than its been at any other point in this trial typically, even when theyre crossexamining Stormy Daniels or other people, he said he sits back in his chariot, is eyes closed for sustained periods of time. Hes passing notes. His attorneys furiously today, he had his Body Language shifted towards the direction of the witness stand. He was looking at Michael Cohen sometimes youd look back at todd blanche as he was asking him a question his Body Language was completely different today. He seemed much happier youve got some more transcripts. Sure. I do, although im not fully sure which ones here now i have only time. He was asked about his desire your work, and there was a lot of tests that when i do frankly, i didnt think really was that one. I do have exist. Do you remember telling congress that it was a lie that you did not want to go to the white house. Do you remember saying that to congress this was blanche spent a long time trying to get cohen to admit that he wanted to work in the white house. And this has been something that was taken up in congress if you years ago cohen says, i remember telling congress i did not want to work in the white house. Blanche says well, do you remember saying what you testified to on tuesday is that you didnt want to go to the white house. Cohen says yes. And then a little bit later, blanche says, do you recall on or around november 13, President Trump pick mr. Priebus to be the Chief Of Staff, right . Cohen says, yes, sir. Blanche says you told your daughter were disappointed. Cohen says that i wasnt considered yes, sir. In the middle of all of that blanche also brought up all these people that cohen had apparently said he wanted to work in the white house to include expenses and mr. Room at the time to be kind of a wash on this because Michael Cohen just stuck to it saying essentially theyre equivalent about semantics. And Michael Cohen was saying, i want it to be personal and turn it all along. I want it to be personal attorney to donald j. Trump and they were quibbling of do you your daughter, said you want it to be special assistant and he said, no, thats semantics. Anyway, what are never leave this would be a decent, nice little piece of peace across because hey, it goes to his motivation. You want to get this guy back your bitter and b, its probably a lie. I know for a fact its a lie because i wasnt room with two other people who we all know and believe 100 and respect who said he said to me he was ticked that he didnt go to the white house. I mean, he said it too. I think every journalist he was talking to at the time, so he absolutely lied about that. He talked about it in a more nuanced view when he was up. So the prosecution he said he didnt necessarily think he was qualified to be the Chief Of Staff in the west wing. He wanted his name to be considered. He wanted and he he acknowledged. He said for ego nuanced is a nice way to put it. I call it like a mealy Mouth Weasel Explanation by cohen the former president seemed a little more uplifted as to caitlin is point after his lawyer cornered of cohen today, much up caitlin says youll hear that and one of trumps former attorney theres on whether this might be a Turning Point For The Defense Will Bureau event imagine a future where plastic is not wasted but instead remade over and over into the things that keep our food fresher our families safer and our planet cleaner to help us get there americas plastic makers are investing billions of dollars to create Innovative Products and do recycling technologies for sustainable change. 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Com for details organic soil from miracle grow has grown me the best garden i have ever good soil. And you get good results. Look at that. The broccoli was fantastic. That broccoli, i think some of them were six, seven pounds from tried and true to try something new so many ways to save life ready wallet, ha and feel better with liquid glass. Grab liquid labs and Walmart Vitamin Aisle today, im Caitlin Polantz at the federal court in washington, and this is cnn donald trump walking out of the courtroom today after its Defense Lawyer cornered his former fixer, Michael Cohen, on a phone call or the heart of this case and may have scored some major points with the jury. Heres the feedback from the former president i think theres a very interesting day fascinating and it shows what scam herself thing joining us now is one of trumps former attorneys, william brennan. He represented a trump during his second impeachment trial. Mr. Brennan, appreciate you being with us. Im wondering what the fact that the they went to its gonna be a threeday weekend now how beneficial is that for the defense that jurors have the next three days to think about what they just heard. Todd, blanche, and Michael Cohen discuss anderson, thanks for having me. Its not only beneficial to leave them marinate and ruminate on what they just heard. It also gives mr. Blanche and his team three long days to scour that transcript and really fine tune whatever is left of crossexamination. It gives prosecutors the ability to do the same thing for a redirect as well it does, but in that particular comparison, its like tie goes or the runner kind of thing. It really is advantageous to the defense because you know, hes hes a Defense Witness at this point. Caitlin, i know it has a lot more when it comes to something that happened at the end of court today, todd blanche would not say whether or not still if donald trump is going to testify when they were talking about other witnesses that they may bring it this conversation that we were just talking out with Michael Cohen where he insisted that he spoke to donald trump about that Stormy Daniels payment on that night when theyre saying it might have actually just been about a prank caller you know, why shouldnt donald trump testify and say that called never happened kaitlan, theres a very good and simple reason for that, because this isnt who should you believe this isnt you know, i want to hear two sides of a story free and pick the winner. This is a criminal prosecution where the burden is solely on the prosecution. It never, ever shifts judge merchan, who i have immense respect for. I spent eight weeks with him in a trumprelated case and just to total, gentlemen to deal with but respectfully, he got it wrong in a sidebar, i read a transcript that said he told mr. Blanche, well you open the door, one Stormy Daniels. Bye in your opening saying that your client denied that there was a relationship and he said something akin to the jury well have to decide who to believe really they dont. The prosecution has the burden of proof. It never, ever shifts the defendant in any case can just sit there and du the Crossword Puzzle if he or she chooses. And in this particular case, they may call no witnesses. I doubt very much of this defendant will testify theres talk that they may call on elections expert. Theres talk that they may call mr. Costello, but i would be very, very surprised kaitlan if this defendant testifies, so you dont think do you think that they should call any other witnesses or just be done after Michael Cohen well, i dont want to fall into the rabbit hole of Armchair Quarterback because i hear a lot of people critiquing especially before he really hit his stride, mr. Blanche. And when youre in that position, so if being a quarterback of the super bowl, that people should really just as greyhound used to say, sit down to leave the driving, us i dont know who they should call the case seems to really hinge a lot on coal with all due respect to lanny davis well, ive affection and respect for i heard his filibuster earlier about its no big deal. Come on. You. Its this is what it comes down to. Hush money payments are not illegal ndas are not illegal. I think abby hit it right when she said it all depends on tying it to that extra crime yet to do that, ladies big on this document. But wheres Weisselberg Trump and weisselberg and cohen. He only are from cohen who has an allergy to veracity. I think that the face is hello, good shape. You laid out a lot there and sorry, get tvc because it would take me over 90 seconds. But on the point of what youre no one is saying that ndas are illegal here. And i know todd blanche tried to frame them today is just commonplace among the wealthy and the famous that its just pretty normal. No one is saying that, that donald trump is going to go to jail, but because of a nondisclosure agreement, if falsifying Business Records is at the heart of this and one point that todd blanche had Michael Cohen make today was that he has never had a legal retainer while working for donald trump. So the question in turn is then why did donald trump cut Michael Cohen 11 checks and sign them . Pursuant to an invoice that said it was because of illegal retainer i think norm eisen address this briefly, but in my home state, the commonwealth in pennsylvania, we have rules of professional conduct as they do in new york in fact, i sit on Hearing Panel for the Disciplinary Board and our rules say the following. When you have a new client, you must express in a either you call it an Engagement Letter or fee agreement, or a retainer agreement. The terms and scope of your representation. However, when its a recurring client, you need not do so. So i think its kind of a term of art that we lawyers him pursuant to a retainer thats the the product thats the whole point is if theres not a retainer, then why did he pay him pursuant to a retainer caitlin, i mean, again its tomato tomato to me, when somebody says, whats your retainer, i hear what youre phi i mean, theres no doubt that cohen worked for him for a long time, whether he was a fixer or a lawyer or a combination of both . Just pay for those services. But theyll Urine Attorney have you worked for donald trump . Have you ever gotten have you ever had a retainer of 100,000 and gotten it grossed up by Hundreds Of Thousands of dollars feel like i should take the fifth on that, but i ive certainly gotten big retainers, but did you have a retainer that was 100,000 and then you got 360,000 from your client . It really is not as black and white as lanny or even the way your phrasing would have you believe theres lots of ways you can structure an agreement with a client. You can have cost outside or cost inside my law firm can outweigh the cost. And then i can bill you for those costs in addition to whatever Legal Service presumably provide so that document all due respect to lanny. Thats no smoking gun. And not only do i predict we certainly wont hear from weisselberg, the prosecution said, colins are less witness. Id asked judge merchan for a missing Witness Charge because if three people were involved in this alleged deal, trump weisselberg and cohen and cohens the only one theyre hearing from. And cohens credibility was shred badly today. I think that theres a long way to go to get Beyond A Reasonable Doubt difference even has a question for you, but quickly after today though, du is there any chance that theres an acquittal . Maybe after today and your view has it changed how you see this now . Is there any chance that theres an acquittal you mean not guilty or not a hung jury . I mean, trumps team seem to think going into this, theres no way theyre getting an acquittal, but its a great question, but i can tell you from john decades and decades of predicting what juries will do. You just never know. I think theres a very strong likelihood of a hung jury, which would result in a mistrial. And then the prosecutors would have to decide if they want to bring this thing back a second time. Theres always the possibility of a conviction or an acquittal, but all 12 would have to agree. It cant be like 758466 if one juror has a problem and cant get Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. It will be declared a mistrial because of that hung jury i was just your were having this discussion about retainers and what are the rules and pennsylvania or new york isnt the issue here . Yes, it is true if this were a continuing legal representation, it wouldnt matter at our exactly how they they phrased it. But whats different here is that this is a reimbursement for 130,000. Thats what this payment was. It wasnt any sort of retainer. So isnt that really much different than how you characterize a continuing legal relations im sure jeffrey, it really is not because its not theres no one definition for a retainer. We wont know what weisselbergs intent and thoughts were when he allegedly wrote that document goes prosecutors didnt call them, so we have to look at this document like its like saying and script and the rosetta stone, we have to try to glean what it is. And then theres other things. Theres ink in the milk, jeffrey, theres 50,000 for some Polling Place there are some bonus he was whining about i mean, i know lanny thinks that this thing is really going to bring it home, but i dont think so after what happened to cohen today, we shall see kelce, but william brennan, thanks so much always good to have you on. Appreciate. Thank you. Anderson, coming up next, how soon could the jury actually get the case will ask the judge whos known this judge for years that viz to credit, we know nothing ruins a Business Owners de like an expense you didnt expect with funding, you can count on viz to credit, makes it simple and convenient to solve the Problem Problems you didnt see coming. 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Hi with many dark days upcoming on the courts calendar for his part of the foreign president is attacking the speed at which the trial is moving after spending months attempting to delay the proceedings its very sad then we story after story about how theres one that you they said never been charging, never have been brought and again ago was going to be brought. It should have been brought years ago they tried to rush to get it done before the election so that they can arm so they can hurt their political opponent. Theyre rushing all this rush theres no refuse charles take forever. But this one, they are rushing where here early in the morning or relief and the evening now the judge wants to extend the time periods. So that we can get this thing done fast. Before the election. Jonny, his now is from new york, judge gel khan visor, who we should also mention. Theres no judge merchan for more than 15 years built brynn. It was talking about i missing Witness Charge. Can you explain what that is . Sure. Missing Witness Charge is where there is a witness that a party in this case, presumably the people should have called because they had relevant and Material Information that was noncumulative that the witness would give favorable information and a witnesss available importantly, the defense has to ask for that charge before the people rest. If they dont, it is on timely and they will not get the charge because you have to give the people a chance to say, okay, im going to call that witness, so they might be entitled to Weisselberg Charge based on that. But the truth is, you have 0s available. They know where he is. Hes in rikers island. They know that he has noncumulative information. You can talk about that meeting. But in terms of favorability, which is we use the term control and favor ability interchangeably in new york law, i dont know that he would give favor favorable testimony, and i think thats what the people want certain favorable testimony. I mean, it would be it would potentially be favorable to donald trump, wouldnt it . Right . It has to be favorable to the party calling that witness. So its not favorable for the people theyre not going to call him and the defendant wouldnt be entitled to that missing witness because with Allen Weisselberg i . Mean he could plead the fifth or he could not tell the truth thats my exact question. Is that if the prosecution knows that Allen Weisselberg would take the fifth is he actually a mixed missing witness because they know he wouldnt testify well, thats i think thats a very good question. And from my perspective, if i were the one there, i would be telling the people, if you want to avoid that missing Witness Charge. And of course, this may happen just before the people rest. Bring them in here, bring him in here. Lets put them on the stand outside. The presence of the jury. And i asked him, what are you going to say . Were going to ask you this question, this question, this im taking the Fifth Amendment on the advice of counsel and that becomes an unavailable witness or im going to say Defense Count i wasnt in that meeting and donald trump is correct. And your witnesses are wrong, then hes not a favorable witness, and then nobody testimony, could he change his mind when he is actually called in front of a jury . He could i suppose i dont think that would happen, but he could he sure could. Because Allen Weisselberg has gone to prison which is certainly i, mean it can be viewed as a favor to the but but but if he changes his testimony, then the defendant isnt going to get them as the defendant isnt going to get the benefit of the missing Witness Charges that and the prosecution had wanted to put into evidence the sort of Separation Agreement that he had that basically said he couldnt say anything negative about the trump organization, about trumps. So they didnt get that. So i think they were trying to make the case that Allen Weisselberg wouldnt cant be trusted to testify truthfully about donald trump because he saw as financial ties to the trump organization. Thats paying him and he would be the only on trustee witness the case im Keith Schiller though. Is that Severance Agreement . He got paid 2 million. He could only cooperate with Law Enforcement if he was subpoenaed for Allen Weisselberg, Keith Schiller, trumps body man, who was the person on that call that night that caught Michael Cohen up . He is not in prison. He lives in florida. I believe when he left the white house, thats very when at least. And so thats the other question, you know, if your thought on the jury, im wondering where as Allen Weisselberg because i havent heard that hes in prison where is Keith Schiller . Because i havent heard why he hasnt been but its the same analysis. I dont think Keith Schiller is going to be in a position to offer favorable evidence to the people and therefore, they should have called that witness, but of course, the people have to make those noises in order to prevent the missing Witness Charged i dont think theyve dumb question. Why can the defense the defense can call witnesses . Why cant they call why well, they can but they have no burden right. So they dont have to they dont have to. If it turns out that you would decide against giving the missing Witness Charge because the testimony wouldnt be favorable, would you allow the defense to then stand up . And say to the jury argued to the jury in closing, folks, wheres Allen Weisselberg . Worst case, you would allow that . Yes. Can i request why the instruction i dont think really makes the end of the day that much instruction is permissive. Its right, it doesnt, its such a week instruction in my experience, im not sure the jury pays as much attention to that as they do the Closing Argument where the defense stands up and says, hey, government has the burden of proof here and you heard was in that meeting, you never heard from this witness . What does that tell you about the about the peoples case. We had a lot of talk about hung juries you youve been in the Center Street courthouse for you were and a very long time. Can you estimate what percentage of criminal cases and in hung juries . Very few. Like five, 1 , i dont know. I mean, ive had to estimate dozens and dozens of cases, maybe hundreds. I dont think i had a hung jury. Okay. Well, thats a datapoint. I mean, do you know in the case of a hung jury, some people say its usually takes to jurors to actually hang a jury because what if it just won award system is that i dont know if thats true. Ive told you before, i do talk to jurors are all my jurors after i always have a conversation with them, i get a little bit of insight in sometimes i hear, well, we werent so sure and then jira two said this and i accepted it. So sometimes i dont get involved in their deliberations, but sometimes they just tell me something thank god, i just have one thing to that. I think theres one exception to the general rule and the judges quite right. People have a a super belief and the fact that hung juries are actually a possible result and that they happen with some regularity. They dont i will say in highprofile cases particularly ones with a lot of publicity, this obviously falls into those those are the places where you see them. Yeah, the rare situation happens in highprofile case. Thats at least thats been my experience. I maybe no good but i tried to cases that ended up in hungary theyre both highprofile. One was very highprofile, had a low profile case that ended in a hunter. There you go theres the judge also. Theres a lot of institutional pressure in a good way on the jury to reach unanimity. I mean, if they give an indication during their deliberation, if they send a note saying, judge, were having a problem, the judge will then eventually deliver what we call an allen charge, meaning it is your job if humanly possible, to reach unanimity, you need to all keep open minds. You need to get back in there. Well, i think thats serious yeah. Works right. They follow the judges instruction about that, and i think they really do try to make a concerted effort if at all possible, even if certain jurors are tending to go one way to listen to their fellow jurors and to try to resolve it. And arrive at a Human Unanimous verdict, whatever that verdict ive been really struck by judge merchan and how sort of kind he is with the jury and thoughtful. He is about them. Not only saying good morning and things like that, but today he was hoping to have court next wednesday but he said to the jury, id like to do court next wednesday but if even one of you on this panel has any conflict with that and it would be a hardship. Just let our bailiffs know when during the next break and we wont do it at all. And they came back and said, the jury couldnt do it. A happy jury is a Verdict Rendering Jury the court staff has been so the professional and so great with handling such a high case, they had to handle the trumps civil fraud case, but they really have been amazing. They have anything going the Court Officers are fabulous. Its incredible to have the privilege of going into that courtroom brian watching it all. Its it really changes once perspective thank you, everyone. Great, great panels. The news continues more of senior in special coverage of the trump Hush Money Trial raft spring reject your vehicle was smart binders custom fit, full coverage floor liners, precisely engineered for a perfect fit, rigid sidewalls, insurance berliners wont curl at the edges backed by a Lifetime Warranty and expert customer service, smart liner transform your won and live hydrates here for sleep, more what its liquid iv i was just feeling sick i always to wash day. Now lets crying. 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