Transcripts For CNNW The 20240703

Preferred better science, better results. I melies nonna in washington and this is cnn coming up on 9 00 p. M. Here in new york are continuing to monitor developments out of The Middle East where were learning more about the Ceasefire Proposal that hamas, except in israel, rejected today. And its really drags on Southern Gaza are raising new questions about whether these limited operations will grow into a fullfledged invasion of raffa, which by the administration has been warning against for weeks we begin the hour right now. Did they 12 and the Trump Hush Money Trial And Judges Second Contempt Finding against the former president today in his warning that a third could mean jail time, that im prosecutors calling two longtime trump employees as they tried to show exactly how Michael Cohen was repaid by trumps trust and personal accounts in 2017 after he paid hush money to store daniels back with the panel joining us as well as harry lipman, who was in court todays and la times Legal Affairs columnist, host of the Talking Feds Podcast former Deputy Assistant attorney general. Im wondering what you observed as judge merchan worn trump about potential jail time it was really sort of jaw dropping. Weve been having different judges and different courts kind of wag their fingers, but he looked directly at trump, softspoken, but very firm. Mr. Trump you are out of rope and it was really the sort of statement weve been waiting for, for a year next time, youre done and it sensible and in a way, because with only 1,000 to work with for other violations, why why should he did all around, but he said next time, thats it. And he really means that his credibility would be on the line as well as the integrity of the judicial system. It was a dramatic moment for geoff made the point let us which i think is very correct that trump actually has been abiding by the gag order since the violation to which he is now been punished for. I think thats right. And he he seemed sort of solid at it, angry and he has been at least trying to skate around it and now were talking about jayyab. Theres a lot of discussion. Would he . I get quixotic lee for political reasons. But jail, not fun for you know, just, just imagine. Sort of know, hairdressers and the whole did he say did he say next time is it or did he imply that . Somewhere in between . So what he said is necessary and appropriate, which of course you say, but what was really striking about it was the direct address to trump. I havent heard that before and weve been waiting. He really said next time, but its like a borderline of a directive and begging him, like hes the joint because as i said, well, i think you did a great job. The judge, hes like dont do this. Like i dont wanna do this like dont make me do this, dont put me in this position. Lets draw transcripts. Yeah, i have it right here, actually, because he he said this is a last resort measure for him that he does not want to have to do this, which i think is important to emphasize because im sure trumps allies have been taking the judge and saying hes being treated unfairly. He said, yeah, youre the former president of the united states, possibly the next is well, he said there are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for me. And he said to take that step, would one disrupt these proceedings, which i imagine you want to end as quickly as possible, speaking directly to trump he said, i also worry about the people who would have to execute that sanction. The court officers, the correction officers, the Secret Service detail. All right. Among others, he basically is talking about how involved it would be to actually take this action. But i think the other thing to remember when it comes to last resort, trump has violated this ten times. I mean, would any other defendant be able to violate a gag order ten times and only were not going and doesnt go to 11. Yeah. But on an e felony, which is the lowest felon, right. For a man whos 77 years old, whos never been in trouble in his life, take out the whole prejudice an average 77 year old. He has a huge platform though to go after these witnesses and to talk about these jurors. Thats exactly why he was being found. Caitlin, you brought up a point though and i think a lot of even the future, the present and the future, it depends on the degree of violation. So if tomorrow he comes out there and says, someone should take out Michael Cohen, i think donald trump will be put in jail immediately. If he says, i still dont feel like im getting a fair trial from these jurors. I dont know if the judge would say yes, its a violation, but im not putting you in jail for that. So i might have to graduate. I disagree about i think theres no more room to say violation, but youre okay. He might he might really try to keep from finding a violation, but if he does, i think no more room, but i do think that what he did today, in addition to the comments there were four things on his desk that could potentially be violations. He didnt say that all of them were and some of them involve comments about witnesses like Michael Cohen and others. And so i think the judge actually by doing both things at the same time, was basically saying, look, there are leinz here. I think the jury is aligned for him rightfully so the jury is their regular people, trump aligning them to kaitlan point on his massive platform is a huge problem. We know that there are consequences of that, but the judge seem to at least in this latest tranche say, okay, well, him calling a witness. Nice. That doesnt quite count hes drawing some lines there and saying that there are degrees to this and hes not willing to just say everything in this category is a violation when it may not be. There are other costs to donald trump here. Real costs to irritating the dej to pushing the judges patients. Number one, if donald trump gets convicted, this is guy whos sentencing him. Lets keep that in mind and the sentence here will be, of course, up to the judge. And this will be a close call. I mean, if you look at class ii felonies, the lowest level of felony, most of them result in probation and finds not prison time, but some do. And the judge would be well within his rights to say, im going to take into account the fact that you violated my order ten times. The second cost is this team has his lawyers are flying blind here. They dont know whos coming tomorrow because they asked for that. They said, judge, wed like to know at one point, todd bland said, i promise you, i will prevent him from tweeting and the judge says, i dont think you can make that promise. And so normally a Defense Lawyer would certainly know the night before whos coming tomorrow instead, they dont know if theyre going be crossexamined hi, daniel treating his actually hurt his case. Yes. Intangible ways. So maybe hes taking that and look if hes selfinterested, which is or know if hes rational, but hes selfinterested. You should be taking that. Theyre finding out the de, but theyre finding out very close. They were complaining that they found out very late yesterday, who the first witness would be today. They said the same thing about david pecker when he first its to fight, but they are getting a pretty de to notice. It will just so were clear, they know the universe of potential witnesses. The government is required by law to produce the universe. So theyre not picking names out of hats, but the order in which theyre called is as a courtesy, is different having a pair for any the evidence de because you were you were very struck. I heard you say by the alawites tilburg notes on a document, lets put the document that we showed this in the last hour. Why why was this such an important piece of evidence . Two reasons i think the first is it corroborates what cohen has been saying for years, including in front of congress all the way down to the actual kind of calculation. How do you get from one 30 to the other thing is the idea that this was a scam. Michael cohen was, was executing on on donald trump, jacking up this price and trump was ignorant of it. This shows at least an hour and yslow burge was working out exactly what the figure would, but thats the second point. It obliterates any argument which you could have had after say, whoa, picks that this was somehow cohen acting on his own. This is why so berg, above him and they are doing it together. All you can now set hey its always useful to think about what therell be able to i mean, if anybody knows who otherwise, ill burger is if yslow berg is doing it, it means its being done with trumps approval. The only sliver is somehow hes that the jury doesnt necessarily get well, the jury believed that without alawites were testifying who who convinces the drafts have a really important point. I think its the one thing, the one hole in whats otherwise 360 Degree Coverage and what cohen has to say is this conversation. But you need a reason theres no count. How could why berg and cohen somehow be freelancing in this sense, when everything weve heard about trump is what a micromanager terry and the like. But at least it, it says no, no more argument that is cohen on his own as hope hicks suggested, on a simple question i have did they explain what that 50,000 services i mean, its a big number. It is. And well, what conus said is its a separate payment for some kind of technology kind of service chris, that he had done before. Some people are whispering, maybe its another kind of campaign thing, but i think its just another payment. He made a few months previous theres also a 60,000, quote, unquote, bonus. So thats legal its a bonus. Thats what they call. Im just curious what that 50 grand is because thats a big number phonetics Knowledge Service this is when the pay off the Hush Money Pay off is 130,000 and then you have this other 50 on top of it. Not yeah. You might get all confusing for those jurors, but remember you also had a witness today who said that donald trump is perfectly capable and sometimes did not sign checks so he obviously could have said to all the and it wasnt just one check. It was it was i think 11 different checks reimbursing khan. He could have said, what is this . Why am i paying this, right . That document answers the question of why he was paying it is although remember also earlier on cohen complaints to pecker hes not paying me something kind of happened that made trumped so complying here and the version will come with colin and also the question of why was it not a one for one payoff . Why was it not just the entire amount that they just paid all of that . Why did they instead do it . And those monthly installments, i havent seen any explanation of that from the trump team. Just to look Like Legal Services hey nor we give you 35,000 to do Legal Services that youre not providing. One thing i was really struck by last week in the courtroom was just watching the jury was how closely they are following everything. I mean, pretty much everybody in that jury box when i was there was watching and listening very intently. So when were taking notes, but everybody was that the way it was . Im really agree on today was kind of, you could say a slog of a day, you could say nuts and bolts stay, but it wouldve been a day that a lot of jurors would have phased out. They were they were attentive. They werent like wrapped and taking up, but they were attentive even through the afternoon i think the idea that as the controller said, donald trump basically almost fired him for paying what he i mean the implication is that donald trump actually owed this money, but he was like, i need you to make it a smaller number. That is not paying and people giving them and being like, oh yeah, what are you going to do his attorneys now demand Retainer Fees in largest part because there werent chris kaiser works are now got 5 million upfront before he did any legal one hour away. And its amazing in a way that Michael Cohen actually was paid because donald trump just typically, whether it is legitimately owed, are not typically does not want to pay what hes let alone three times, right. Remember that he wanted to go into past the election is then he wouldnt have to pair. But somehow 12 checks nine of them signed by him. Theres a little more to this story. He didnt pay Rudy Giuliani. Rudy giuliani went to him to seek help for his own legal expenses. He would not pay him because he claimed that he said that as lawsuits in his efforts to try to help trump overturn the Election Results didnt work. And so when Rudy Giuliani went to him and said, well, i did all this on your behalf, trump would not pay and now were at giuliani is voting his own legal. Becker said here when cohen went to them, that trump said, hes got plenty of money. We dont need to pay him. Then he did something. I mean, this is why so much every de is riding even more on Michael Cohen because im brought back to the fact that Michael Cohen decided to tape trump in that critical moment to say im about to make this payment for you, Michael Cohen knew that he needed the proof. He created the evidence of it, and was ultimately paid back. This is incredibly incriminating and Sensitive Information for donald trump. He did not want it out there. And Michael Cohen was the one person son who knew all about every element of this. So when he gets on the Witness Stand, theres quite a lot there. Its always been inevitable that they were going to need michael cohn to draw that link. And lets remember if we say, well, why should donald trump have to know about the small bore nuances of accounting . Because the Prosecutor Charging with a small bore nuance accounting crime, they chose to charge that they have to link them to it. What the prosecutors have been doing. And i think quite successfully thus far is reducing the amount of gap that Michael Cohen needs to bridge all these documents, all this testimony from david packer and others makes what Michael Cohen is about to say and we all know about what is going to be saying in a couple of days or whenever he takes us then makes it easier to swallow easier her to believe more plausible. So theyre theyre trying to they know the jury has to take a Leap Of Faith with Michael Cohen and they want to minimize that. Well, you always talk about that tape where he says to Michael Cohen, like you just take care of it, right refresh my record. So this is a tape relating to Karen Mcdougal, a couple of months before the Stormy Daniels payoff, but this got introduced to the jury on friday, and essentially Michael Collins says, were gonna be paying Karen Mcdougal and trumps fine. Sure. One 50. How are we going to do it . And Michael Cohen says none and no, no, i got it. I got it. Dont worry me and me and alan are going to work actually shrimps suggests and trends someone who says right, 50, right, trumps says one 50 and trump says cash. I dont see that necessarily as demming for him. Hes saying were just gonna were gonna pay it in one shot that does, by the way, cash doesnt necessarily mean an envelope filled with 100 bills when someone buys a house with cash, it means a onetime project. And Michael Cohen understands him to mean that because michael says no, no, no financing, meaning were going to do this more complex than just a onetime transaction. So if im a prosecutor, i wish Michael Cohen never hit secretly hit record on his own client. I dont like that tape. It goes both ways. It gives some points to the prosecution, some points that offense, but man, if youre the prosecution, you have that burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You dont want an a piece of evidence that has useful stuff both ways. One thing that we always talk about Michael Owens credibility understandably and i remember, i mean, everyone remembers his congressional testimony. Trump is also on tape lying about what he knew about this. I mean, that iconic moment on Air Force One when catherine lucy, who i believe was with the Associated Press at the time, asked him what he knew. He straightup lies and says he didnt know about it, even though by that time hed already paid Michael Cohen backboard. So donald trump also has credibility issues here. Any lied to hope picks, its clear that she painter to say it, but she was saying no. Cohen, this is not what cone would do when trump told me that he did it of his own accord. I dont believe it home and told hope hicks he did it on his own she testified to that thats not good for colon. Thats not good for the different hicks testified that trump told her that cohen did it on his own, and then she followed up by saying, but that but she doesnt believe thats not what cohen lied to her as well, that several aspects of this ir libman. Thank you. Thanks. Everyone. Else say where theres next more details from the full proud transcript weve just out tonight, including a portion of the prosecution stepbystep attempt to do what weve just been talking about, namely establish that link that ellie just mentioned connecting the defendant to the alleged primes through the testimony of one of his former top money man. And later brock reviewed whos got new reporting and what israel may be about to do about a key crossing into Southern Gaza finnish ultimate engineered for the toughest Condition Dry Burn tons, stains, oh, dishwashers very hard water. Finished ultimate would cycle seek. Technology helps deliver the ultimate clean how far would you go . It is that the ambiance of your space . Try the air wick way with Air Essential Mist infused with natural Essential Oils, to fill your low bit with immersive fragrance for up to 45 now thats a Breath Of Fresh Air wick, high. Its christina again. 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Those who are still with us, yes. Grandpa whats this . Your wings. Light em up gentlemen, its a beautiful. Day to fly. It really happened with jesse you, martin sundays At Night On Cnn we talked before the break about how prosecutors might tie the former president directly into the alleged scheme and the heart of this case, because earlier times you have to have been said it was clear to him that the prosecution has already made its case and the checks dont trump rhoad to Michael Cohen or not for legal fees and the Business Records of them were falsified. Again, though prosecutors have not yet made clear what was the defendants role in it . All that said, prosecutors today certainly seemed to be trying to make that connection indirectly through testimony from two longtime employees about how the Trump Organization was run, the Folt Transcript released tonights speaks to that. John berman is back with more so what stands out . Well, sorry from the very beginning for the very beginning that michelangelo, who was the prosecutor from the very beginning when he had geoff mcconney, who is the controller of the Trump Organization on the stand. He wanted to establish this was Donald Trumps organization that donald trump was the man in charge of everything there. So this was right at the beginning in a question during the time you worked for the Trump Organization, who ran the company . Mcconney answered President Trump colangelo, asked before 2017, what was mr. Trumps role in the Trump Organization icon . He says, well, im not sure he was he ran the organization. He was the brains behind it. He i dont know how to answer that question. Glandular. When you work worked there, did you consider mr. Trump your boss or mcconney says, yeah, its almost like even conceive of anything other than donald trump being paramount in this organization . This is someone who i know. Hes been on the Witness Stand before he testified in the trump civil fraud trial. He actually got emotional and broke down on the stand during that because he was talking about why he left the Trump Organization, why he chose to retire anyway basically saying it was because there were so many subpoenas and investigations and how overwhelming this whole process was so this is someone who got on the Witness Stand who doesnt have an ill view of donald trump and was really disabled to speak to trumps level of involvement here, the defense in the crossexaminatio n today, i was trying to paint a picture of just this sort of Chaotic Operation that nobody quite understood and outdated too, right . Theres a little bit of testimony i think was interesting where i think it was mcconney hey, or actually it was the woman who testified the afternoon who was in the Accounting Department under mccartney. She said, all we had was pulldown menus. So when were classifying expenses, basically, we just had our choice of however many and i just, you know, i was wanted to put it in as legal fees. So theyre trying to paint a picture of just sort of things happening at a lower level in a disorganized way that you cant tie back up to the top. Now, i dont know if thats going to fly with the job thats clearly the Defense Strategy here based on the transcripts, but thats a good argument for the defense. That this woman who is no not a peer of donald trump in any way and not in all that much daytoday communication. Mission with him. If she is the one who characterizes the expense that is the crime. Here at the crime here is the expense. Its not the check, its not the trump had to in order to be convicted from head to know that it was being characterized as a legal firm solute orchestrate. I think that the term that the prosecution is used, his orchestra great at it, and well see if that well see if they can prove it. I mean, the cases and over theyve proven a lot. They havent so far. Heres my summation to the jury and you have a lot of latitude in summation ladies and gentlemen, well know about the trump presidency, and we know what his reputation was. He was a macro guy. He was not a micro guy. He wasnt jimmy carter who wanted to know who was using the Tennis Courts in the white house. He didnt even want to read a memo. He didnt want hear anything from anybody. But now these prosecutors, after theyve trained their witnesses, de and a day yeah. Preparing the pur cross examination. Now, all of a sudden, hes mr. Detailoriented. What hes running the country, he cant be bothered with the details, but here for this 130,000 check for a billionaire now hes all conservative detail prosecution is going to say is hes detailoriented about his yeah, thats what the evidence has shown. This menu idea first mean it doesnt could also be argued the other way, which is that if theres a limited options on the pulldown menu, trump would probably know what all the pulldown options are in the menu and be like, oh yeah, dude is only hush money was not one of them will say i will say jeff mcconney, the controller, was asked if trump knew about the pulldown menu. I have a whole exchange here. Let me read this to you because he gets into this a meal, but this isnt the defense is the cross bove. You just testified about a series of payments that were made to Michael Cohen and 2017, right. Mcconney says, yes, sir. In that timeframe, 2017, Michael Cohen was a lawyer, right . Mcconney says, okay male beauvais says, right and then mcconney is is sure. Yes. And then bobi says and payments to lawyers by the Trump Organization or legal expenses, right . Mcconney said, yes, sir. Bove says, and you book those payments on the general ledger as legal expenses, correct. But connie says yes. Now, heres the part that gets into the nittygritty of the mds system during youre 30 something plus years of the Trump Organization, you rarely had conversations with President Trump right . Mcconney says very few. And during the instances when you did speak to him, you didnt talk about accounting software, did you . Mccartney says no, you never gave him a tour of the mds system, Wright Mcconney says, no bove as you didnt have any reason to believe that President Trump understood the details of mds. A mcconney says, correct. Mds is the pulldown menu system. All right. I believe but let me make one point though. The prosecution doesnt necessarily have to show donald trump opened up that pulldown menu and clicked on legal expenses. Its enough if donald trump knew and i think michael cole will say this, look the plan was, we put this whole elaborate reimbursement play together because he knew and we knew it was stormy. Daniels payment and we were trying to hide it so it wouldnt come out for the election. Thats enough that they dont have to show that he was clicking around mds system. I thought i was just going to me the idea that Michael Cohen is being reimbursed in the form of a bonus, which some form of Salary Payment plus money that is not paid for Actual Services that he provided shouldnt that structure in and of itself show the jury that trump knew that there was a scheme to pay Michael Cohen for things that he had not actually done. Hes allowed to pay him for things that are not actually done. Hes not allowed to put in the books that he did something that was not actually done. It is a Confidentiality Agreement can call a hush money. Its a Confidentiality Agreement. You dont put in your books 130,000 payment for confidentiality between donald trump and Stormy Daniels if he put it down as reimbursement reimbursement to Michael Cohen in the book thats all its not a crime because thats what he did he told yeah. Right he did not, for rent, its not for a new roof. Its for legal expenses. Click and go to something else, someone else who has tremendous credibility, Rudy Giuliani said back in may of 2018, this about the payment to stormy dan having something to do with paying some starmer daniels woman 130,000. I mean, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal that money was not Campaign Money sorry, im giving you a fact now that you dont know, its not Campaign Money . No Campaign Finance violations. So they funneled through the law firm funnels row, and the president repaid it oh, i didnt know. He did. Yeah. Theres no Campaign Finance law. Zero. So the president , like every sean, so with this, the shogun was made by everybody. Everybody was nervous about this from the very beginning. I wasnt i knew how much money donald trump put it into that campaign as at 130,000 akin to do a couple of checks for 130,000. When i heard cohens retainer of 35,000 when he was doing no work for the president . I said, but thats how hes repaying. Thats how hes repaying it with a little profit and a little margin foot paying taxes from michael about you. Do you know the president didnt know about this i believe thats what i know about the specifics of it. As far as i know. But he didnt know about the general arrangement that michael would take care of things like this . Sweetie remember that its been awhile since i saw him really holds. Right . Ill never forget when that interview happened and how caught off guard sean haniyeh was by Rudy Giuliani just admitting it, saying that no, Michael Cohen wasnt doing any legal work and he was just reimbursing them for paying off the porn star. I mean, when we talk about everything we know now, that was a pivotal moment. No one knew that until Rudy Giuliani johnny went on tv and set it and so even now, trumps attorneys who born part of his team, then when you ask about that moment theres not really a defense because it doesnt use what Rudy Giuliani said. I dont want to be offensive to anyone. Rudy giuliani said is thats how it works. The individual who is trying to what agreement doesnt write the check to the other person. They write it to the law firm. So the right way to be done here if there was property giuliani said he just said the point that he was making there and the takeaway that is that he said Michael Cohen did not do legal work yet. Michael cohen was paid in the led for legal work. Thats whats at the heart of this okay. But and thats the bookkeeping that is the Bookkeeping Issue but my having done these Confidentiality Agreements, the client writes the check to me. I put into my Escrow Account, i write it to the other attorney and the other attorney gives it to their client. Would with documentation thats a waste arthur. What you just use the word book, heck, Bookkeeping Issue. Another word for that is crime. Its not a it is a crime if you lie in the book keeping it, what is the crime if the client says to me, arthur, i want to enter into a Confidentiality Agreement with this person for a quarter of 1 million. Heres a check made out to authorize Dollar Attorney at law escrow i put it in my my Escrow Account. Their its their money. Its in my Escrow Account now from there, i write it today. Let me ask you this. Ever had a crime, have you ever had a client pay you back over 12 months with one large retainer check each month for a total of triple the amount you laid out no, because i know the short answer is no, but i dont have the Type Relation with any client the way Michael Cohen has with donald trump. Hes an inhouse counsel. He would rudy said is they had a general arrangement that Michael Cohen would fix things, would take care of these things for him. He said a general arrangement that is not as devastating as it may seem when you look at it from a Leuser Law Professors point of view. All right. Next crime rocks on vermin. Thank you. You prime or more on the whole notion of a President Writing Checks to his fixer the oval office, joining us, one of his former top advisor, former White House Communications director, was Sofar Griffin on what she makes him at all and what voters might as well appeared that were here to get your side of the store a fares library prostitution. Why do we keep ending up here . You cant write this stuff. United states of scandal with jake tapper now streaming on macs victims of mesothelioma and their families may be entitled to receive a cash award from the estimated 30 billion in Asbestos Trust Funds with over 50 billion awarded. 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So at trumps behest, joining the panel, former Trump White House insider is former Communications Director Alyssa Far Griffin so i mean, do you buy elicit the idea that then President Trump was signing checks . In the white house to Michael Cohen without knowing exactly where they were, what they were four. Well, so ive got kind of a mixed perspective. I want to respond something arthur sayyed because i think largely made a good point that donald trump doesnt get into the minutiae of things. But if there are two things he gets into the minutiae of its anything public facing, how hes gonna be perceived in the press and money in my experience, press if there was gonna be something that went out under his name or that became a story that he did. He was incredibly handson incredibly engaged, wanted to direct narratives. I did not deal with him as much on the money sayyed, but we would hear it from dealing with the campaign on the outside that hes notoriously a tight what hes not somebody who does Pay Attention to how hes spending his money. So i think that thats where that kind of an argument falls a little bit fly, its two areas thats just welldocumented that he pays attention to, but its certainly what his sides going to argue and its not about argument. Be careful, you might get called to just i mean, those are exactly the elements of the case and i think that they would want to hone in on wine. The idea that like he cared about how he was perceived, he cared about whether or not people knew about the storming daniels thing at that particular moment, and that he cared about his money. He didnt want to pay it. He didnt part with it lightly. To me, i cant think of two more important parts of Donald Trumps personality that are at issue in this case minus the whether or not he knew but whether its just for what they will four this is what makes it hard for the prosecution that you cant really make an argument beyond a reasonable doubt, which is well, of course, he knew of course this is how we behave lets assume, i mean, maybe youre right and that you just cant i mean, if you are having a conversation here about someone in the news, you can make that conclusion, but to the jury, you really need to say witness xx said x, that shows donald trump knew what was in these papers. And i have to say, im no fan of donald trump. I would not vote to convict at this if i were on the jury. I dont think that the case has been made there. I think the intent on the campaign side, yes. But on the money side, its very complicated. Today was not a sexy de and core. I do think that document was powerful. The weisberg yes, the notes. But even so, it does not necessarily make that direct link to him knowing it and do you believe knowing what you know, and the importance of out and why sold, bringing their Relationship Weisberg knew where all the bodies were buried essentially has gone to prison in order and is not speaking, you can make an educated assumption, but thats the hard part, but the prosecution potentially are the defense wanting to call Stormy Daniels i dont think thats particularly relevant to the case. Its not illegal to have an affair with an Adult Film Star its salacious, its sexy, itll get people to tune in, but they have this one link they need to make without a shadow of a doubt. And it may be that Michael Cohen is the only person who can make that link and hes so flawed in this moment or i do wonder though if Stormy Daniels would be able to offer insight into Michael Cohen not being able to operate without Donald Trumps authorization and the fact that he was stringing her and keep davidson along. They felt like until after the election and saying, well, i cant get in touch with him. Hes out on the campaign trail. Are i cant go to the bank. I can do this. She could potentially shed light on theyre receiving end of those conversations and what they heard also for the detail oriented stuff, i mean, the idea that trump is not due dealt rented it. He is what its something he cares about something he doesnt care about. Sure. Has intelligence prefers, will tell you he stopped paying attention five minutes into their briefing. But remember when donald trump was leaving office, they stopped putting out the daily schedule, which every president has always done their daily schedule, what theyre doing it would just say that President Trump was very busy making many phone calls and having many meetings because he was upset about about instructed the lower press its often did you write those it was someone beneath alyssa was in a much higher ranking position than the person who actually put this schedule out, Something Like a fourth grader would write like the president was very busy making important phone and they put it out every single day for the last three weeks of his white house because thats what he wanted it to say. He didnt want it to say that he had nothing on his publics schedule he pays very close, but no, but the fact that the fact that donald trump made most of these reimbursements in 2017 when he was in the white house is interesting cuts both ways. On the one hand, it suggests, well, he was so interested in this, he was so invested in this that he was taking time out from what he was doing as the president to make sure that these checks got signed and got to michael oh the counterpoint is well, he was barely paying attention that on crossexamination today email bove is the witness. Well, in 2017, he was focused on being president , not these payments. So im sorry to say that, like each side of every fact, but this is how trials go. The defense is going to have a spin on it. The prosecution is gonna have spent i wonder i know alyssa, you didnt know trump really until the later parts of his time in office. But was he had all focused on his personal affairs. Is business trump org when you knew him or was it all sort of you certainly was if it was something that again was going to spill over into The Public Eye like he had largely kinda hit handed that off to the sons were dealing with it. But if there was a bad story or if there was something, wed always get these about his taxes are about his business dealings. He would care but how hes going to play in the preska youre a subpoena. I mean, sorry okay. Maybe shes already been met. Thanks to our panel. Them are breaking news. Israel says it is conducting targeted strikes and raffa in urging civilians who evacuate the eastern part of the city. Of los earlier, said they accepted a Ceasefire Proposal, but israel says its not the one that theyd crafted with egypt very latest every piece of evidence tells a story how would really happen jesse . Oh, margaret, sundays At Night On Cnn how far would you go to control the fragrance in your home . Theres an easier way, dry air wake vibrant with two times more natural Essential Oils for up to 120 days amazing fragrance pur, dual pack. Now, thats a Breath Of Fresh Air wake how far would you go . Is that the ambiance of your space . 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Israel now it says its military will move forward with its operation and raffa wertz ordered evacuations immediately in the sound of gunfire could be heard a short time ago from the Egyptian Sayyed of the raffa border our next Guest Reports that is really forces are moving to take over the palestinian side of the roof of border crossing. In the next few hours. And political reform and Policy Analysts barack ravid joined us now. So what are you hearing about . Whats happening on the ground right now . Good evening, anderson. So as far as i know, the Israeli Forces are in the surroundings of the rough crossing. This was the aim of the operation that we saw tonight to take over the palestinian side of the raffa crossing, which is a strategic site. That is, really important for hamas, not only because its the border between egypt and gaza, but also because this thing is a symbol for a fact that cms is still the ruling power in gaza and without the rough crossing, a lot of this image for the palestinian population as a whole is being turned finished. And thats one of the goals of this operation, including also to put more pressure on hamas leader. It has seen war to maybe move and be more flexible in the hostage talks. Tom freeman in the last hour suggested that one motivation of going into this area and holding this area was smuggling by hamas from egypt that this is a smuggling route yeah, thats part of it. Although the the raffa crossing itself is not where the most of the weapons were smuggled into gaza. There was smuggled mostly through tunnels, but the fact that israel is now at the crossing well give it another opportunity to do something. It hasnt it hasnt done since the beginning of the war. And this is from what i hear from sources where we have direct knowledge of this is that these rallies plan in a few days or in a few weeks . To bring palestinians were not connected to hamas, to take part in the operation of the crossing and in the distribution of the a that is coming from egypt. And this will be the first instance where there might be some sort of a governmental alternative and initial governmental tentative to the hamas rule in gaza. Who would they be . Thats a good question. If you ask benjamin netanyahu, he will tell you palestinians were not part of hamas. If you ask minister of defense, you have gallant, he will tell you well, in hamas there are two kinds of people, either hamas or fatah, which are the political rivals. Commands that are affiliated with the Palestinian Authority. So most jenzenjones are that those are exactly are going to be the people even if Prime Minister netanyahu is still saying that he will not accept any presence of the Palestinian Authority in gaza. I think this is where this thing is going in terms of the hamas said that they had accepted a Cease Fire Proposal is zero says its not the one that they had been agreed to with Egypt Urban Working On with egypt. What do you know about that . What i think the israelis were pretty surprised hearing can muster day announcing it accepts a Ceasefire Proposal when especially because they did not know that theres any new proposal that were not aware of. And when they saw the text, they saw this is not we were discussing. This is a whole new thing. And one of the things i hear that israeli officials are also pretty frustrated with the Biden Administration that even though cia director Build Bernick was not talking to hamas, he was there in cairo over the weekend when this new puzzle was being drafted. And the israelis, us telling me that they did not know that burns or any or other people from the Biden Administration were not transparent enough with about the fact that theres a new proposal that is being formed. So whats the reason that hamas would make that announcement . Is it i mean to sort of get on the sayyed of looking like theyre theyre being rational, they were willing to have this ceasefire and then israel says no and especially, to do it when they know that israel is making steps, initial steps to go into rafah the hamas wants to stop this operation or wanted to stop the separation did not succeed, and they tried to push the ball to the Israeli Sayyed of the court its now the israelis are saying, okay, we will go to cairo maybe tomorrow, maybe a day later to discuss this new proposal. But they also say this is not what we put on the table ten days ago. This is something completely different and therefore, it is almost as if we will have to start the negotiations from scratch. Rock reviewed, its great to talk to you. Thank you were now with cnn, chief National Security correspondent alquds, marc board, and senior Military Analysts and retired Army Lieutenant general mark hurtling, alex, i know youve been tracking us involvement and ceasefire talks are negotiations is barack review just mentioned bill burns, cia director, was in egypt. What do you know about the directors role in all this . He was in egypt and then he went to doha where we believe hes still is. Hes had a very central role in all this and anderson, barack is absolutely right. Theres been a real evolution in the past week, egypt was working on something that israel had some input in. And then we understand that the talks between egypt and hamas were progressing i saying but in a way that the us and qatar, both of those are two other mediators, felt that israel would not actually end up agreeing to those terms. So they kind of took hold of that framework. Im told and when burns what to doha, he worked with the qatari Prime Minister to rework the language that was then and hand over, hand it over to hamas and thats what hamas eventually responded to now, understand is youve noted hamas is saying that they agreed to the framework. What were told by us officials, its more that they responded and they had a take of their own and weve seen a document from hamas that is still good to have. It still has significant gaps with israel the good news is that the talks are progressing. Is brar mentioned theyre going to be going on in cairo. Israel is expected to send a team. Qatar is expected to send a team. The less good news is that is not happening at a senior level. Its happening below that bill burns level at what we call the working level or that experts who go over the finer points. So these talks are wishing along but significant gaps still remain. Anderson, im in general hurtling in any negotiation since odd one side said theyve publicly make statements saying theyve accepted the ceasefire deal. What do you make of hamas saying that . Well it was fascinating today anderson, that hamas announced or someone announced that they had accepted the deal that hadnt been coordinated on both sides is alex just said, but heres the important part. I think one of the things that were overlooking as the element that affects combat and warfare at the, both tactical and the strategic level. Is time. And since the start of this war, time has been on the side of hamas. Its a critical part of their strategy along with their tunnels and theyve wrapped themselves around the palestinians so that anything that can help create more of a humanitarian crisis our gives israel a bad image is something that they want to do. It isnt just their approach. Its their strategic objective. And were seeing that today is as soon as, you know, first of all, when the talks were going on over the weekend, as you know, hamas lost 15 missiles at one of the crossing sites and killed several israeli soldiers. Israel walked away at that point and said, we cant continue to do this then today they announced it all the palestinians are shown dancing in the streets of gaza and israel now is the bad person because theyre Conducting A Raffa Operation which they said they were going to do if they hadnt heard from hamas about release of hostages. So its continuing the work against israel anytime theres a delay when time is on hamas is sayyed, is not on israel side from a Strategic Perspective because we are seeing the world increasingly turn against anything that israel alex, what are some of the details of that proposal that hamas allegedly accepted . Well, i understand from the way its laid out, it looks like the first phase is expected to be the easiest probably weve been talking for weeks, if not months about a multiphase deal, three phases, each expected to last around six weeks. The first one the hamas is expected to release around 33 israeli hostages but anderson, were also learning they may not all be alive. These would be women men who are elderly men who are sick and wounded. But if hamas doesnt hit that 33 number they would be expected to compensate with bodies and theyre around 30 plus israelis were believed to no longer be alive hundreds of palestinians, but also get released from israeli prisons, gaza ins and the southern part of the strip would be expected to go backup, backup to the northern part of strip, but anderson, those sticking points that i was talking about hamas wants to see israel pull its military back, if not entirely out of the gaza strip, but away from central gaza, thats something that israel hasnt shown any inclination to wanting to do the others. The question about a permanent cease fire. Hamas is made clear they want a permanent cease fire. But again israel has said that they still have a lot of work to do to eradicate hamas. And thats why were seeing the beginning of this operation. And raffa, alex mark or general more cartilage. Thank you. 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