The stand as he has been all week. Hes been testifying for the first time today. About a key figure in the case, Adult Film Star In Director Stormy Daniels, keep watching your screen for updates from inside the courtroom. They are are there are there and that side of the screen were bringing you the reports from our reporters. Lets bring in cnn, Senior Supreme Court analyst, Joan Biskupic, who was actually inside the High Court Today as the Oral Arguments played out, joan, what stood out to you and was there anything that you would be able to discern that we just hearing it would not well, first of all, it was incredibly griffin right there in the room. Jake, i cannot i cannot overstate just spence going into it and then just hearing those questions realizing the direction they were going, which is much further in a direction than i think any of us might have predicted. Just to talk about some of the people in the room. Jack smith is sitting there at the same table as Michael Driven, who was defending his position john sauer, defending President Trump. Jane roberts, one, chief justices, wife, their patrick jackson, Husband Newest Judges Justice Ketanji brown, jackson room was filled with many dignitaries just trying to hear all this. And what they heard was an argument from the justices that went more in the favor of donald trump than i think some people were anticipating. He he might have to win on the whole shebang of absolute immunity here. But the questions really showed how sympathetic they were to his position and how skeptical they were to jack smiths sayyed as articulated by government lawyer Michael Driven. And ill tell you the surest sign of that nature of the questions and then the fact that john sour didnt even not even offer a rebuttal. I mean, he had a free five minutes at the end or close to that to reinforce his points. And i thinking heard most of the justices themselves make those points first of all, the kinds of, i wouldnt call them quite off ramps, but Detours Before Trial would be something that we werent sure. We thought was kinda baked into the question the justices took up official acts versus private acts, just what is an issue here, jack smith, it says it doesnt matter that anything that has been charged here is something that can go to trial. But then a question that came from justice kavanaugh, Donald Trumps second appointee to the Supreme Court, asking about should any criminal law that the president would be subject to have a clear statement that it would have to cover the precedent that is a very high bar for prosecution. Of the president under these kinds of charges because of course, the president isnt singled out in any of these that was another point. And then the overlay jake was really really interesting in terms of the justices fears about overzealous prosecution, the checks on the government, a grand jury, the the Attorney General, anyone who would to have a hand in bringing a prosecution against the president , they were concerned about a certain unfairness, retribution, and any time Michael Driven tried to really push the justices toward the actual access are that are at issue here in the kinds of crimes they were brushed away by the more conservative justices, samuel alito kept saying, i dont want really want to talk about the offenses here. Neil gorsuch said that fell to Justice Sonia sotomayor. Theyre really stress what was at issue. And Michael Driven kept pounding away, pounding away on the allegations against former president then trump and his disruption of the peaceful transfer of power all right, Joan Biskupic, outside the Supreme Court. Thank you so much. Lets look talk about the politics of all this because i dont know how the Supreme Court is going to roll. But certainly if they put forward an argument like alito did today, seeming more concerned about how if a hypothetical president is fearing prosecution, he might be inclined to stage a coup, which is certainly an interesting way to look at this case. I dont know that thats going to bolster confidence in the us Supreme Court among the members of the public do i think ive told that we have that soundbite if you want to play it, do we want to do if we have it, lets play it if a an incumbent who loses a very close hotly contested election knows that a real possibility after leaving office is not that the president is going to be able to go off into a peaceful retirement. But that the president may be criminally prosecuted by a bitter political opponent will that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy. And we can look around the world and find countries where we have seen this process, where the loser thats thrown in jail. Yeah, we dont we dont have to look around the world. For something that isnt a hypothetical. That might show somebody in a very real not hypothetical situation that involve them climbing onto power even though they lost. But what it does is its a reminder that so much of what we hold sacred is not necessarily written into the constitution with detailed words, but it is based on the notion that people are going to do the right thing. And we know that that isnt always the case, which is why what neil gorsuch said, not only saying that this is not about this case, but this this is about future cases. I was struck when he said we are writing a rule for the ages. They understand that this has to be finalized and has to set precedent and will set precedent in a very particular way and just quickly on the politics the fact that everybody seems to be reading the questions to suggest that this is going to go back to the lower court if that happens, what does that mean . That is a victory for donald trump because its a delay and it will be impossible to imagine that this will be resolved by the election. Yeah. I mean, it is really amazing that the idea of rather than deterring people from taking the office and committing crimes in the office. The idea is to just make it easy for them when they leave so that they dont have to worry about it. They dont have to worry about trying to hold on to power i mean, literally Maggie Haberman has a contributor here, has said this before on multiple locations. Donald trump sees the presidency as protection. That is why he wanted to stay in office because he had all these potential things around him that were that were looming, cases that he wanted to avoid that very idea might have been the thing that drove trump to try to hang on to power as much as possible. So look, you can look out of the way that alitos looking at it, but i do think that were experiencing actually quite the opposite. And if there is not anything in the law to deter people from going into office too. Tech themselves, from doing criminal things. Then basically the presidency becomes the very monarchy that the founders didnt want raises a fascinating question because trumps goal is always delay. So you have the new york Hush Money Trial going on right now, and i never thought id be sitting on set listening to arguments for the United States Supreme Court while on the other side of the screen, were falling the testimony in new york and the publisher of the National Enquirer, the former publisher of National Guard is talking about how he was you didnt want to do business with a porn star. Thats all happening at the same time because its to, to classe of publication. Donald trump continues to take us to places we have never been before, but two datas point about the delay. A politically trump believes that benefits tim this new york trial is underway. The Georgia Election subversion case. No, no set date. The classified documents case supposed to start in may, but the judge, there has constantly pushed the board down the road, so its possible it is possible that the new york case is the only case resolved before the election. Maybe some of the others. My question politically is 193 days. America votes many, americans will vote early, but thats election de hundred 93 days. What if this goes back to the trial court and then there were decisions made and thats appealed up to the Appeals Court. This all being in the news. There may not be resolution. Donald trump does not want to be convicted before the election because even a lot of republicans say if he is convicted that would make them think twice about voting enough republicans to swing the election thanks, they would think twice. But is this just constantly being the news helps him raise money, but does it help them with the small universe of voters who will decide who wins i would just like to point out to Justice Alito, forgive me. This is this is a donald trump problem as the kids, we have had president after president go on leave office and not do do this. I just want to go to whats underlying the january 6 case and we have this whole discussion about official acts and personal acts. Lets just remember that Donald Trumps own top aides told him there was no widespread Election Fraud that would change this case the courts, through it out. His own Attorney General, bill barr, said the same. So theres really no evidence of any official act in what he did. It was because he didnt want to be a loser. It steven still there if so, i wouldnt so steve, let me go to you because you had a particularly interesting acronym response to alitos argument wtf Whiskey Tango Foxtrot when he made that argument, explain explain your reaction. Well, im not think its exactly two obvious point. I mean, its, it really is remarkable how much the justices, especially the republican appointees during this mornings argument, really tried to not deal with, engage with except how much this case is a referendum on exactly what but four President Trump did. The irony of Justice Alito, using what trump did as a reason to be wary about holding him liable for what he did i think is where i come from. We call it code sba. But to johns point about the timing, i think one of the real questions here is how quick quickly can the court itself move if there is a majority for some kind of remal back to the District Court cannot opinion come out in three weeks, four weeks, so that we actually have Movement By Memorial Day or is this going to be one of the last decisions weve got from the court at the end of june that can have a lot to say about the political calendar the john was talking about nmr. Yeah. There were two points i thought were really interesting to one was that neil gorsuch raised the issue of south pardons today. He essentially was talking about forward thinking and saying, well, hold on a second. If every president is fearful that they may be treated by their successor to a criminal prosecution, then would that mean that the end of every single fouryear period youve got the president who start to self pardon. He also said happily, weve never had the opportunity to address the issue of self pardons. He has wanted im sure its now being teed up. The other part of it was also mentioned you talked about bill barr, Attorney General. One i think Justice Alito mentioned was the idea of well, what do you be a defense to your conduct . If you had a preapproval by your Attorney General that what you were doing was not illegal, would that give you an a safe space to which they said yes, it would. Now, he then that hold on. Does that not incentivize you to a somebody to be your Attorney General, who become essentially your yes, man, i know youve written about the hatchet man in your book as well, elleithee and thinking about this, well the response was, weve got weve got structures in place through the whole Confirmation Process that will protect us against that. And we can all sort of scratch our heads and say, you mean, you think that no one could ever get through a Confirmation Process. Supreme court that having said things that you would get yourself in the Office Position and then maybe we nag in some way and so its kind of odd moment that happened yeah. It just it does feel like some of the questions were from a planet in which january 6, 2021 never happened and the challenge here, as i think its so often is, can we collectively remove the donald trump of it . All and look at the bigger principal. And i thought it was notable throughout the argument today, you heard Donald Trumps lawyers trying to focus on the presidency itself and not donald trump and not donald wise by them to try to do that . Absolutely. And the special counsels lawyer was doing the opposite. It was all about the indictment. What led up to january 6, 2021, the facts of this case. And as justice gorsuch, i wrote this down to he said we are writing a rule for the ages. And i think what they may ill do is write a rule that does exempt president s in certain narrow circumstances. But ultimately say whether donald trump is inside or outside of those lines. Thats not for us, thats for the factfinder. I did think it was just another line that struck out to me from Justice Sotomayor for she said the framers did not put immunity in the constitution, and she noted they could have, they knew what it was. There were other examples of it at the time. They didnt do it. And i do think that that is worth noting here that theyre going to have to create something if there is immunity, theyre going to have to create it. In this case. And that is going to be a huge landmark. So just one other thing is just theres this other trial going on right now. And i dont want to give it short shrift because thats where mr. Trump is actually today and right now, we just have tried to bring you guys up to speed out there guys and gals, the mr. Mr. Steinglass, the assistant District Attorney has this been examining david pecker, the tabloid magnate, former publisher of American Media, inc. Which publishes the National Enquirer. He had a very cozy symbiotic relationship with donald trump and steinglass has been examining packer for the prosecution, talking specifically, not just about the previous catch and kill deals fuels that they had where the National Enquirer would, by a story damaging to trump so that they would spike it, hide it from the public. They did that with a doormans story from trump tower that apparently was just not based in reality, they paid 30,000 for it. It wasnt true. Doesnt even we dont need to go into the details of that. The second story that apparently these individuals at the National Enquirer thought was likely to be true, had to do with Donald Trumps alleged longterm relationship with 1998 playmate of the year, Karen Mcdougal. They paid her 150,000 for a column she was going to write for a magazine that was part of the Ami Em Empire not specifically the National Enquirer and they, and they were just going to have a Ghostwriter Write It and they ended up not publishing that at all. Then they got two the third instance of catch and kill and that is the one that is actually at issue here because thats the one that supposedly donald trump is accused of at least falsifying Business Records to hide that hush money being paid. Le bring us up to speed as to some of the action that we have missed while this rather august argument in the us Supreme Court was going on up in manhattan. They were talking about porn stars and hush money. Yeah, shifting focus back to manhattan now. So we got through in the testimony, david pecker, the story of the Karen Mcdougal catch and kill. Essentially, they learned about Karen Mcdougal story. They were concerned both within ami National Enquirer, david pecker is company and the trump campaign, and importantly, david pecker testified that they wanted to buy up the story and silence it because we didnt want the story to embarrass mr. Trump or embarrassed or hurt the campaign. Its a very important detail for prosecutors. Theyre ultimately the National Enquirer, ami Peckers Company buys the rights to the story from Karen Mcdougal for 150,000. And then theres this interesting dispute between the trump camp. They dont want to pay shockingly, donald trump, people dont want to pay for something nami wants to get paid, ultimately, they just back off. An ami says, you know what, were going to pay for this Donald Trumps team does not end up paying for that. That sets this table then for the access Hollywood Tape, when that came out, there was testimony from david pecker that when that tape came out, it was very embarrassing very damaging to their campaign now, david pecker and the National Enquirer folks, theyre interested in first at trying to buy up Stormy Daniels story but then they quickly backoff because they decide we dont want any part of this. Theres some concern actually on the National Enquirer or as part that what theyre doing may violate Campaign Finance laws is very important detail ultimately, ami, national choir, theyre out, theyre not part of the Stormy Daniels transaction that is left to donald trump, Michael Cohen and their team, and that leads to the charge and that leads to Everything Else that were about to hear in the manhattan courtroom. Cnns special coverage continues with updates on Donald Trumps hush money to cover up trial Tabloid Executive david pecker is going to resume its quite often sensational testimony. Any minute right now were going to squeeze in a quick break. Well be right back every piece of evidence, tells a story how it really happened with jesse l. Martin sunday at nine on cnn. Can zoom or cellular. 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They argue that trump and any former president should have Blanket Immunity for actions undertaken while in office. Those arguments have now wrapped up and aaron in new york testimony where you are will pick up right after the next hour or so theyre in lunch break thats right. They just or lunch break. And weve been hearing from the former Tabloid Executive, david pecker wolf, whos gonna be returning to the stand. And after this brief Lunch Break Prosecutors have finally gotten to the details of Stormy Daniels and the hush money deal. The heart of this entire case. Pecker testifying but he wanted to quote no part in that transaction, despite the fact that he had orchestrated other similar payouts to benefit trump during the 2016 campaign, the socalled catch and kill that they were executing Kara Scannell was inside court the morning. Phil mattingly is also with me, so kara, you were in there throughout the morning and i know now on the on the lunch break, so take us in. What happened this morning. This morning, they they picked up where david pecker left off on tuesday. They got into the heart of the Karen Mcdougal deal and he was describing how long hey, who alleged had an alleged yearlong affair with trump. Right. And they had learned that she had this story. So he goes through how it came to be that they caught and killed the deal and that was one of his deputies, dylan howard, who is the Editor In Chief of the National Enquirer, had gone out to meet Karen Mcdougal hello. And he was recounting to the jury how Michael Cohen on behalf of trump was calling him frantically to figure out what her story was and what to do about it. And so he American Media thats where the david pecker had worked, had a great to pay Karen Mcdougal hundreds 20,000 to buy the rights to her lifetime story, which included her story that she had had a ten month long, affair with trump and he said that they had done this deal. He agreed to do it, but that Donald Will Trump was going to reimburse him and cohen told him the boss will get the boss will take care of it. So that was a reference to donald trump, david pecker said he understood from this that donald trump knew about the payment ami was making and that trump was ultimately supposed mr. Reimburse am i for these reimbursements film and just going through some of the other things that trump was asked when this came up, it was very clear. So i guess Michael Cohen was worried he wasnt going to get paid back or for the Stormy Daniels payment and pecker testifies, dont worry that trump says him, dont worry about it. Ill take care of him referring to cohen and i guess what was quote, unquote, Beat Christmas Bonus at Christmas Bonus, which cohen had actually had a conversation with pecker according to peckers testimony of i havent been paid yet. I need you to talk to the boss essentially on my behalf and also pecker testified that the bonus was a critical issue that Michael Cohen also wanted pecker to raise. And i think the process, if you look at the first couple of days with peckers testimony as kind of laying out the foundation for peckers role in trying to prove prosecutions case. Were now drilling further into the critical details, including the moment when the access Hollywood Tape came out talking about that and pecker talking about how damaging that appeared to him and appeared to what he believed the campaign was seeing in that moment. But also in the weeks after trump actually won. And the fact that trump kept pecker very much within his inner circle to some degree, they were talking about how they communicate with trump in the white house. Theres a meeting at trump tower, but also the trumps view of things. These stories in particular that were related to what am i and david pecker, were doing had shifted in the way pecker testified of from how Melania Trump felt about them, how the family we felt about them too is this bad for the campaign . Is this bad for my presidency now that ive one, all right, so let me ask you about something in this case because thats the whole core. Right. Was whether this was done because of the campaign, right . And that would be b would upset to the felony and the violation. Okay . Pecker says, this is something that happened that you were there for this. Im curious what happened. Pecker says trumps family was not mentioned in conversations with cohen and trump about the stories when which indicated that trump could be embarrassed. And so pecker says, quote, so i made the assumption that concern was the campaign and then the Defense Stage is an objection. What happened in that moment was so there have been a couple of objections and the judge has been very clear on not wanting what they call speaking objections where the lawyers would kind of explain what their issue was in front of the presence of the jury. So they often have sidebars about that to figure out what can come in and what cant come in. And if the objective is valid or not but this is the core of the prosecutions case here they want david pecker to establish that trump was doing this involved in these payments to influence the campaign because thats what makes this Case A Felony case for falsifying Business Records. So david pecker is connecting these dots for the prosecutor caters to say that for each of these deals, that concern was that and that only escalated after the access Hollywood Tape. And then even after that, when the Wall Street Journal had reported three days before the election of that Karen Mcdougal has signed a deal with ami that david pecker said he went out and put out a statement saying that the story was false and he said he did that to protect himself, to protect his company, and to protect Donald Trumps campaign, really connecting those dots. And then theres this meeting sort of my jaw drops just when you think about it, you got trump in a room and trump tower, january of 2017, if im if im cracking, theyre talking about this a few moments ago theres trump, theres david pecker, james comey just always think would be cia director mike pompeo was there theres well rights pretty this was the rnc chairman that was going to become the Chief Of Staff of the white house. And sean spicer, who became the White House Press secretary as well. In pecker, recounts how he basically was tapped on the shoulder by jared kushner, that the soninlaw of the former president to be brought into trump tower and is in this meeting where the fbi director and my pump air, the future cia director our briefing, the president , or soon to be president , President Elected at the time on a shooting in florida. Very serious can imagine security like this is the reality of the office. You just one type of moment in trump introduces david pecker, according to peckers testimony, and tells the assembled individuals, all of whom are there for a very serious, very weighty moment. For the future president. This guy knows everything about everything. Essentially, he knows more about anything that any of you guys do. And so the relationship between the two of them, which was clearly been established as close and certainly mutually beneficial in the words of david pecker, doesnt stop after the election, doesnt stop based on the catchandkill deals. Hes now being introduced to the future National Security team of the President Elected the United States. In the middle of a very important briefing guy who knows more than anybody. Yeah, it is just sort of a moments to take us in those words it is incredible. All right, thanks to both. And obviously, were going to be here in new york throughout the afternoon, wolf with you erin. Were gonna be working together all afternoon. Its a standby. I want to bring in Brin Qian Grass right now. Shes also in new york. She just emerged from inside the courtroom. You were there, you were watching it all unfold. Brin give us your thoughts. How did it go yeah. I mean, most interestingly, wolf, you know, youre watching david pecker who was a longtime friend, confidant. Ive done and ill try. Im testifying to the Inner Workings of how these catchandkill deals were made, how they were paid, how they are reimbursed, how three first min came back or didnt come back. And donald trump really he wasnt reacting quite honestly. He was sitting there at time sometimes conferring with his attorney, but he was mostly just sitting back in his chair like this with his eyes shut sort of taking in word by word how pecker was testifying and what he was testifying two. And it really kinda spoke to some of the testimony we did hear from david pecker toward the end that prior to the campaign, when those two to donald trump with david pecker would talk about those stories that were out about him regarding the doorman, regarding Karen Mcdougal trump app said he was embarrassed and then he was worried about what his family would think. But after the campaign it was or after the election, he was more worried about those coming out because of how would look for him outside of his face families. So it really speaks to sort of how donald trump is sort of taking in all of this information. The one time that he actually did give us smirk inside the courtroom was when they discussed that meeting inside trump tower after President Trump was President Elect trump and david pecker walked into the room and he was surrounded by a number of these people who are advising the nowpresident lags in and donald trump may the comment that this is david pecker. Hes the publisher of the national acquiror, and he knows more stories about me than anyone else in this room and pecker said, nobody really laughed at that, but that did get a laugh from donald trump. But quite honestly, he has been just really taking in word for word, how pecker is testifying who really is just kind of pulling back the curtain on every single detail, sometimes having to be reminded about some of the details about how this caching kills worked and we didnt quite yet get to the Stormy Daniels. It was touched upon, but we havent yet gotten to the depth of the Stormy Daniels a story which of course does that the core of this case certainly as britton, thank you very, very much. Well get back to you soon now. Weve got an excellent panel here of our legal and our political analysts and Elliot Williams, let me start with you. What stood out to you the most so far from todays testimony by david pecker, i think the biggest point right now, walf from day is the direct link to the trump campaign, which i dont think has been set explicitly now, just to recap, its important to note that in order to make this a felony, its prosecutors have to establish not just catch and payments, but also the falsification of Business Records to hide things from American Voters in the context of a campaign and pecker says, at one point, once the foreign presence started campaigning, it was basically what the impact would be to the campaign and the election. Now, i dont want to leave the impression that thats some kind of smoking gun. And the president gets convicted on account of that. What im saying is that that is a direct nexus to talking about the campaign where suppressing these, these embarrassing stories wasnt just about the president and his wife, but actually the presence campaign, itll be useful for prosecutors, but again, it all comes down to what the jury does. Elie honig is with us ubud listening and watching all of this unfold. How do you expect the defense to crossexamine david pecker . Well, that could happen starting this afternoon, by the way, it sounds like the way things are going in court. We could see the start of the crossexamination this afternoon and let me just say the way that you will feel about a witness as a prosecutor, as a defense lawyer, as a juror, after the end of direct examination is often very different from how you will feel at the end of crossexamination. Heres what i think we could see in the crossexamination. First of all, they will say that david pecker, This Caching Kill Stuff you were doing it the enquirer, sleazy, right . You knew it was sleazy, but you never believed this was criminal. And in fact, its not criminal. Start with that. I think that theyre going to go to the limitations of his knowledge. They dont necessarily need to paint david pecker as a liar, but they could say essentially to eliots point, the crime here is falsification of the Stormy Daniels Business Records. You dont know anything about the logging and accounting of the Stormy Daniels Business Records. And then finally, they may sort of go after david pecker on the fact that hes think given a free pass here, hes been given a nonprosecution agreement. Youre given a walk. Donald trumps on trial, therefore, you have an incentive to try to help them. The prosecutors also, they could go after him in a way because he dealt so largely with Michael Cohen and they could try and take trump out of it and say, look, you and Michael Cohen were very close. You did all the dealings with Michael Cohen. You were even asked to help him get his Christmas Bonus or whatever it was. And trump wasnt as directly involved in this as Michael Cohen has said, and then try and put trump off to the side in all of this has not being as as involved in a socalled conspiracy as he may well have been one more thing. It even if its not specifically legal or a specific legal point, something prosecutors can do is simply expose What David Pecker does for a living jury, which ordinary people, the citizens, do not have a concept of a Magazine Publisher who pays off porn stars to protect peoples reputations. Its the kind of fact that at least plants the seed about someones credibility in the eyes of the three. And then when you add to that, the nonprosecution agreement that lie ahead, had spoken to a moment ago what a Defense Attorney is trying to do is simply give jurors or reason not to trust or at least like this, assume everybody on that jury knows the National Enquirer they do a certainly they do. But once details about their Business Practices and what they actually do was exposed to a jury. Its a perfectly permissible thing for Defense Attorneys say, wait a second. Who are you and what did he do and whats your job . And it all comes down to how much jurors like believe in trust the person whos testifying to them, thats correct me if im wrong, but isnt what the prosecution is doing overall with pecker understanding, they have a huge problem with Michael Cohen. Are we trying to bring him in as a substitute to build up this narrative of the scheme, not necessarily to your point of saying, pecker knows the illegal behavior that took place here in observed data and can speak to it as much as it is. Try to get as much in from him about the overall scheme, because cohen is going to be a problematic way and this is a dynamic and every Trial Defense Lawyers like to say, look at this little piece. So testimony thats not a crime, standing alone. But what prosecutors say is you have to look at all all of it, sort of blended together. And i think what theyre doing with david pecker is setting a foundation for the more important witness, Michael Cohen and they think that when pecker is saying were backup number, good to hear from karla. Yeah. Its not going to be 100 aligned. It never is when two people are telling a story about something that happened eight years ago, but clearly theyre confident now that it will reinforce Michael Cohen. And i think if i think what the defense can also do is keep reminding people that the president also had incentive to keep this information away from his wife wife, and children. Now that its still crime, if the fact if in fact the president had a motive to interfere with the election in some way on account of the behavior either. But merely mixing up for the jury. The fact that the president had Different Reasons for wanting these stories not to come out as a great way to just plant that pecker was asked directly about whether the family was ever raised as a concern and his answer was know that this was all about the campaign and that this wasnt personal. Its what he does say is that its shifted at a certain point, but earlier on he does say he was always if a negative story was coming out he was always concerned about melania. He was concerned about ivanka. He was concerned about what the family might here say about it, and i just think the various purposes can twist the jurys minds. That is one interpretation. As to why on the Karen Mcdougal case that he was thinking about participating in The Catch Killens Up was because he thought he said he thought it could be terribly embarrassing to donald trump and his family here thats the exact quote, david, i was just going to read it. The quote was quote we didnt want the story to embarrass mr. Trump or embarrassed or hurt they campaign. And as elleithee was saying, i think defenses are going to say, oh, when you say mr. In paris, mr. Trump, as this thing from the campaign thats the family part of it. But again, the law, you dont have to show it was 100 one or the other prosecutors just have to show that a substantial part of the motivation here was campaign related. Adi, how do you think its playing politically, right now, as far as trumps grip on his own base on the republicans are going into this general election. I dont think its really changing things in that respect, but i dont know if anyone else on the panel cares that jim comey was there. Like does anyone else have a question about this . Right . This previous to me, this is one of in the context of the Supreme Court conversation today about president ial immunity. One of the things that were focused on was official acts. And this president , i think in a way, has shown us that theres a kind of collapse there whats official versus whats not. Do you talk about your Hush Money Issue in front of your new fbi chief . Sure. If hes in the room like theres no sense of borders there. And thats one of the reasons why the case thats happening before the high court is so important because it does directly speak to the kind of culture that can be established out of the Executive Office if there are not guardrails as decided by us as a society. Well, and these conversations were going on i dont want to use already the President Elect this is ahead of the inauguration. This was happening and there was no sense of like, hey, maybe theres a border here that between candidate me, an official, me, it was like you all work for me good. Well, maybe and maybe he puts he puts david pecker in this meeting with james comey, sean spicer ryans prematurity. I hope their tastes and all and thanks. Thanks him for helping him out. And there is no distinction. It shows you how important the President Elect thought david pecker was i mean that really does go to this not only was he a good friend, but he helped him a lot and wanted to thank him and as you pointed out, he didnt care who it was in front of elliotts point. I mean, i love that you have that kind of faith in people and how they think of us as journalists. I actually dont think thats the case. This is the kind of behavior that people come to see as somehow common that even Journalism Politicians that together theres a kind of paper for play kind of concept how we do our work, which is not true. It may have been true for the National Enquirer, which is how you end up in this box testifying, but i dont necessarily think people will hear that and think, oh, no, i cant believe a politician did that. I just meant more porn stars and aliens and the kinds of junk that you see in the National Enquirer all the time. I just like both of those things have better reputations and politicians and journalists like people feel are far more willing 8 yeah, probably take a quick break. Everybody snicker rod. We have a lot more of our special coverage coming up just add, this is another truly historic de, well be right back live from the nations capital, one of the most unforgettable nights in dc are sworn. It will read back here again, President Biden comedian Collin Joseph, headline the white house Correspondents Dinner Live Saturday at seven eastern months, cnn from pep in their step to shine in their coats. And people switch their dogs foods the farmers dog, the effects can seem like magic. But theres no magic involved its just smarter, healthier pet food. Its amazing what real food can do my bad on they do can you, andy bad risk connect with skilled professionals to get all your Home Projects done . Well, ill get started today at andy. Com. 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And through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. Real solutions for kids and communities at aft. Org my name is oluseyi they become centers of their communities. And some of my favorite moments throughout my life are watching sports with my dad. Now, i work at comcast as part of the team that created our ai highlights technology, which uses ai to detect the major plays in a sports game. Giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. A cause get started today, accustoming. Com closed captioning brought to you by mesobook are firm only represents mesothelial victims and their families. If you or a loved one who has been diagnosed with mesothelial, call us now and welcome back to our special coverage here on cnn. Im erin burnett and im outside the New York City courthouse, were former President Donald Trump is on trial and right now, theyre having lunch in recess for just a few more minutes. I we anticipate in just few minutes, im just gonna come right back into that courtroom. Room and of course, the session will resume. And at that time, Tabloid Executive david pecker will return to the stand. Its Kara Scannell, Phil Mattingly are with me so weve. Got a few more minutes, everybody. You know, you can imagine the lawyers right, getting everything together, getting ready to go back in and resume this direct examination of david pecker there have been some really interesting moment its already though that are giving them maybe at this moment some, some moments to pause one of them an executive at the National Enquirer who works for david pecker the prosecution brings up a text message that this person, dylan howard, sends to a Family Member in which he says it talks about being pardoned for Election Fraud if trump wins, but at least ill get a pardon for election for extensively referring to everything that they were doing, right. I mean, its its an acknowledgment that they knew that what they were doing because remember, this is in 2016 around the Election Night, an acknowledgment that they knew that what they had done was in violation of the election laws. Thing as the judge has not allowed that into evidence yeah. That was something they were arguing to try to get in outside the presence of the jury and the judge said, right now, hes not letting it in the Sidebar Argument right now. So what i just said is out there, but not to the jury exactly. Right. So the prosecution is still going to try to get this in. The judge said, as of now, hes not letting it in and part of that has to do with this the conversation howard had with a Family Member and dylan howard is not on the stand right now, so theyd have to authenticate it in order to get it in. There are still fighting about that. The prosecution saying, well, this was this was from his ami phone that he used for work. So this is going to continue to be a debate, but at this point, the judge isnt sold, so the jury hasnt heard that very stark line, very stark its fascinating. He read through several different techniques. And again, the jury was not in there. Theyre trying to have this admitted. This was objected to by trumps team and judge merchan said he would consider it, but think about it more and talk about it after lunch and other email from dylan howard had actually been admitted by the judge a little bit earlier on during a series of objections, but also that with this firstdegree Family Member, i believe is as it was described, dylan howard, who is the editorinchief from National Enquirer on Election Night, saying, in a text message oh dear essentially that trump was going to win, but also in another text message saying, i dont believe this is going to hurt us at all the favors that weve done for the former per four, then the President Elect or soon to be President Elect. And whether or not this tragic case for first off, they have to be admitted. But i think it underscores the thinking at the time of the individual who is it clearly a point person with david pecker was actually running the National Enquirer himself within conversations with a lot of the lawyers i think for Stormy Daniels and over the course of this time period that they recognize and maybe something wasnt jest, but they recognized that the gravity and the stakes this moment that may be in the moment because this was how they did business. Theyve done this with the former president several times. Had not necessarily occurred to them, but on Election Night was really dropping like a hammer. I know i know that the heart of the case right. Is what the payments were. They a violation, were they a felony . And its not about whether the underlying acts as the payments before happened or not, right nonetheless, though, you can imagine the defense wants to raise that question trump wants to raise that question that basically will. Of course, i had to pay. This is unfair. These things werent true get Election Fraud. I was just defending my monitor. Right. Make that argument in that context. Karen mcdougal, who they also spoke extensively about today, the former playmate who had had she said a nearly year long affair with former president s so theyre talking about buying these things and oh, well, they didnt happen. So thats why trump was paying off they talked talk about pecker, talks about a conversation that he had with trump where trumps says, hows our girl doing, right . Referencing Karen Mcdougal referring to someone in a way that you would refer to them if you knew them, if you had had an affair with them, if they were your girl, right and in the converse, there was another conversation. Just a handful of Congress Stations that david pecker testified that he had directly with donald trump in another one of those conversations, when they had just learned that Karen Mcdougal was going to go public liquid this according to pecker, trump said to him, and house karen. So a familiarity, not who is this stranger that has made some allegation, but com calling her by her first name, which then when you add the two together, suggests that there was some familiarity with who she was and where where the story was coming from. And thats the psychology that now what is in front of the jury, but thats the psychology that the prosecution is trying to get im sure now, in front of the jury, and i believe that discussion with holler girl was the same meeting we were talking about prior was just after the meeting with the future president s, National Security team inside trump tower. So those individuals left james tell me my pump peo reince priebus, sean spicer, and then trump turned to david pecker, according to peckers testimony, and asked him about that issue. So of all the other things going on in the President Elect mind, that was something he wanted to talk to david pecker about. I think the other element two is were starting to see the Stormy Daniels who obviously is at the center of all of this start to come into play here. Here is the prosecution. Its kind of laid the foundation is telling the story through and how it connects to the prior to catchandkill payments where theres a conversation the Pecker Recounts with Michael Cohen basically saying two things. One, im not gonna front this money for you anymore because ami had covered the first two catchandkill payments, which would explain why cohen felt like i had to pay for it but two, that am i couldnt be tied to Stormy Daniels because she was a porn star and that wasnt the type of business im paraphrasing here. That wasnt the type of business the National Enquirer would want to necessarily a conclusion. You would have drawn. Now into this into this room in the story ark that were on now, right . Theyre going from their sabotaging Karen Mcdougal. They talked about, but door man who would made allegations which were proven to be false about a child, but trumps father was false. Now, youre on Stormy Daniels, where are we in the testimony of david pecker . Were almost at the end because he is also talking about that trump tower meeting was what prosecutors have called the thankyou meeting where he talks to he goes and he sees trump. Trump. Thanks, Tim Taking Care of this . He also invites him to the inauguration. David pecker said he didnt go, and then theres one more meeting that prosecutors have flagged. So this is what i expect david pecker will be asked about when in return soon for after lunch, was that it was in the spring or summer of 2017 after trump has been president , he invites david pecker to the white house, keep im sorry. I keep davidson. Im dylan howard goes along with him and it was the thank you dinner. And he thinks him then trump thinks david pecker for everything hes done for the campaign. So that is what we will then here think that brings us toward the end of the direct examination and then it will be trumps attorneys opportunity to crossexamine david pecker, and im told thats going to take you hours, a few hours. What we see, well see where we are them. All right. Lets send it back to you, wolfe or their and i want to bring in jury consultant Alan Turkheimer right now. Alan, thanks so much for joining us. How do you think the jury so far is responding to all this i think its so far so early on favorable for the prosecution. Now, theyre painting a picture of the printing a broad picture, and theyre given jurors details that theyre going to use down the road. So my guess is if you ask the jurors, of course this couldnt happen, but hypothetically which side do you favoring or do you think that theres some wrongdoing . I think most jurors would say bad, kinda lean in favor of the prosecution at this point. And there was probably some wrongdoing. But theres so much left when i talk to jurors after theyve served on cases, its very rare when they say that something click with them and they made up their mind or something really significant happened in their outlook of the case just during the direct testimony of the first witness. So i think its going well for the prosecution, but that can change quickly. Well, do you think the prosecution is doing an effective job that proving its basic allegation that this socalled catch and kill scheme wasnt just unsavory or sleazy but it was illegal Election Interference. This is the the novel legal argument. Did you think its been laid out well enough, at least so far for the jury im not so sure it has. And the prosecution has to enable jurors empower them to connect the dots. Because at the end of the day, these jurors who went through this whole process of indicating they can be fair and impartial and keep an open mind. Theyre going to have to say, and thinking compartmentalize. I can say, well, i dont really think this was a nice thing that, that happened there were a lot of sleazy things that went on or underhanded things. But at the end of the day, i still dont see the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt, so id think that the prosecution has to start speaking the language of the law and try to propel the jurors to decide that there was, in fact Election Interference keywords beyond a reasonable doubt. So critically important to pecker testified as you know, that trump knew about the contract with big google. Will the defense be able to convince the jury that trump was unaware of the Stormy Daniels Hush Money Payments with testimony like this its what theyre going to have to try to do and its a tough sell that the person all the way at the top was unaware of things jurors often hold the person whos in charge accountable, and that often doesnt fly, but theyre going to do their best. And the cross is going to present pecker in a very different light and jurors might come but way with his testimony and others where theres just so much doubt swirling around and theres all this information that they dont really take to mean that there was awareness on the part of the president. So i think they have a good chance and thats certainly what theyre going to try to do with the crossexamination of these witnesses. And then during their own case and ultimately maybe if trump takes the stand himself interesting, were told by our colleagues who are inside the courtroom that trump has been sitting in court, leaning back, closing his eyes occasionally whispering and passing notes to his lawyer at one point, he cracked a smile when pecker described being introduced by trump to some of his Campaign Staff as someone who quote, probably knows more, than anybody else in this room. So how do you think trumps coming off to the jury that the former president , how is he coming off to the jury . I think the former president s coming off pretty well, but maybe by trumps standards, he seems to be pretty composed the occasional smile and the notetaking and leaning over is fine. I think jurors appreciate that, but the dozing off or im shutting whatever happened there i would probably try to limit that if i was the defense. But overall, it sounds like hes seeming like hes respecting the process and not rubbing jurors or wrong way. But its early on that can change or if it continues then props to donald trump. Yeah, well see what happens. Sorry, alan. Thank you so much ellyn turkheimer, juror jury so thank you. Court resumes in just a few minutes in the criminal Hush Money Trial of donald trump and our special live coverage will continue right after this rionda, new album is breaking records gets to say what Country Comey country, beyond say a nashvilles renaissance. 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It comes after the Justice Department and trump attorneys, but more than two hours in front of the Supreme Court earlier today, a different legal team for trump, of course there they argued whether trump or any former president can be prosecuted for actions they took while in office, wolf interesting, aaron, the former Tabloid Executive, david pecker, will also be back on the stand very, very soon. Hes been testifying about those hush money negotiations with Stormy Daniels. Any went into great detail about the socalled catch and kill deal with former playboy model, Karen Mcdougal. Lets walk through some of the major takeaways from david peckers testimony right now, our senior legal analyst, elie honig, is over at the magic. While ellie walk us through what we need to know, at least right now. Yeah. Well, if as the jury gets ready to come back from its lunch break, lets catch up on some important things that happened this morning. First of all prosecutors are taking king the jury through david pecker, really deep inside this world of catchandkill and prosecutors are using david pecker to really tell a three chapter story on tuesday, they told the story of Dino Sajudin A Door Man who claimed he had a story turned out to be false about donald trump having a child out of wedlock. He was paid for his story, which was then killed, never quran today, the primary just of the testimony has focused on Karen Mcdougal, who alleged that she had an affair with donald trump. And thats the gist of What David Pecker was talking about. So lets go into that for a moment. So pecker testified he was asked about why was Karen Mcdougal story bought and then killed . And heres the testimony. Steinglass asked whether the reason was so that mcdougal story, her allegation of an affair did not influence the 2016 election against donald trump. David pecker said, yes, it was later david pecker testified, we didnt want the story to embarrass mr. Trump or embarrassed or hurt that Campaign Prosecutors are going to say, look, the motive was campaign Donald Trumps team is going to say well, there was also a personal motive here for Donald Trumps. So look for that on cross now eventually they enter into a contract with Karen Mcdougal, ami, david pecker enters into a contract that donald trump himself was not part of. And david pecker said the purpose of that agreement was to disguise the true nature of the contract. They didnt want the public learning about Karen Mcdougals allegations. Now that brings us to sort of between chapter two and Chapter Three. The big thing that happens is the access Hollywood Tape came out and the jurys not seeing that tape, but theyve learned about it. This is where donald trump gets caught on camera talking about, you can grab them by the blank, et cetera. We remember that tape and pecker said, when that takes it came out, it was very embarrassing, very damaging. Again, to the campaign important point for the prosecution here. And then where david peckers testimony left office, he was starting to talk about Stormy Daniels. Stormy daniels comes forward. She alleges that she had this sexual dalliance with donald trump. Their worry about it, and david pecker decides weve had enough. He says, i am not paying for this story. I, meaning the National Enquirer. I am not paying with this story. I didnt want to be involved in this from the beginning. Im not doing it. So where we leave off in the testimony is ami and david pecker are about to hand off the Stormy Daniels mess, to Michael Cohen and to donald trump and their team. And thats what were going to pick up this afternoon. Wolf, as we sort of head into Chapter Three of our three chapter story that prosecutors are trying to tell the jury. And he says he didnt want the Stormy Daniels story in the National Enquirer because it would be inappropriate at some of the supermarkets, which were selling, the National Enquirers that right . Yeah, thats part of the testimony. Interesting where the National Enquirer draws its moral lines. Thats not for me to judge. Interesting elie. Thank you very much. Aaron, back to you im sorry, ali okay obviously, when everyone goes back in that courtroom, it is david pecker whos going to resume his testimony. He is again, the former publisher of the National Enquirer, Bingeing Guys was in the room for this mornings testimony. So when you were there and these these backandforth these revelations, these descriptions we just let me just talked about bet National Enquirer. Im sorry, the access Hollywood Tape that cannot be shown to the jurors, but there was a lot of detailed that pecker did go into about that tape and then following up with the fact that he said one hiv is magazine websites, radar online had a article that was posted that was titled play boy man, essentially about trump and immediately how they worked with Michael Cohen to kill that story online as well. So really its quite interesting to listen to david pecker go into all the Inner Workings of exactly how this Caching Kill Scheme worked. Not for all those three cases that le laid out for you right there. And ive got to tell you it was surprising to see Donald Trumps sort of sitting in his chair and really just keeping his eyes closed sometime moving his head to the side are leaning in to listen, but just keeping his eyes close almost as if he was trying to take it all in at word for word, but not really reacting. And we all kind of look to see if he would react, of course, to that national im sorry, that ax is Hollywood Tape description. And since that was such a Pivotal Moment prior to his campaign, really the only time that he even gave a smirk was when they were talking about sort of this inner conversation after he became President Elect at trump tower when trump made the comments about david pecker who was meeting a bunch of his advisers. But david pecker new a lot of stories about him. Pecker said no one really laughed in that room, but trump did smirk at that comment. Listen, he has been on the stand for a total of five hours from a tuesday rather into today. And as you heard from le hes gotten into those two major stories, but not quite yet into the store be daniel story, which is at the heart of this case. And so certainly we do expect that to happen when it gets picked back up after lunch all right. Beringia and grass. Thank you very much. Of course. Brin will be there. Kara scannell, Phil Mattingly here with me. So kara, when she says a fivehour so far for david pecker and i know you anticipate another few hours, maybe that does not actually finish until tomorrow morning the yeah. I mean, it sounds that way, prosecutor Joshua Steinglass said around noon that he thought he had two to three hours more. So that was one hour we got now we have the lunch break. So if this goes for another two hours, that takes us pretty close to the end of the Court De Maybe the cross, maybe Donald Trumps people skip to start there crossexamination, that it definitely seems like david pecker is going going to meet on The Stand For A Forced De in a row this week to finish his testimony, it has been interesting that while we understand they dont speak anymore, trump and david pecker. Pecker is the one person that trump has not of the potential witnesses, stormy and Michael Cohen, obviously, he constantly has disparaged nothing but pleasantries about david pecker. So it is nice so he was right. It said he said, he said hes nice and its interesting. Karen, i think were trying to psychologically figure this out. One of the commercial breaks is just because theyve got decades where relationship with the prosecution kind of laid out in detail tell pointbypoint, is it because of kind of where they come from and the same running in the same circles over the course of those decades. I dont actually know. I think whats interesting is when you look at what he said about potential witnesses are what he said about the judge or the jury. Its gotten them into some trouble and i think were still waiting we were wondering if its gonna come this morning. If judge mug shot would make a decision on whether or not theyre Gag Order Violations. And if there were what he would actually have to do, we have to pay money. Somebody former president was asked about this morning when he didnt small gaggle with reporters, but when it comes to david pecker, who again, has been testimony testifying four hours over the course of several days and certainly hasnt made the former president look good given the details, hes been able to give into a very seedy world. I dont think most normal people know about he at least, accord with the former president. Still thinks hes nice. Yeah. I mean, its quite suspect. Mean theres many people at Ease Cohorted with for many decades that he does not speak called nice way but youre right, its all about the psychology, right so the gag order that phil just mentioned, i know that the prosecution came in and they alleged more violations. What, three or four this morning, and yet still no ruling. Why not . Yeah. For more, including Donald Trumps gaggle with reporters this morning calling david pecker, nice because what the prosecution said is that is sending a message other potential witnesses to be nice to him when they testify on the stand. So theyre saying that that is an inappropriate comment that donald trump is making now that violates the gag order. So now they came in today with four that is on top of the tense, weve got 14 alleged violations this is all before the judge. He didnt take it up this morning even after the prosecution raised it. I mean, that could be because the jury is here. They were on time and that just never want to keep the jury waiting so he could have just thought to himself, hes going to table this until inappropriate breaks so they can get the Testimony Underweight and keep this trial moving because one thing that i just said repeatedly is were not having any delay. Were keeping this trial going. So that could be one of the reasons. But this is hanging out there and what the prosecution keeps saying and literally every day is if you dont rule on this, hes going to keep violated get proven to be the case. Apparently you its fascinating though, is when you contrast this qarrah in the middle of doing all of this, also wrote another story about another Legal Development for the former president today in the Defamation Case where he wasnt getting it, correct me if im wrong, this is not going to get a new trial based on the E Jean Carroll Defamation Case. Think back to that trial. Hes out. He was muttering he was going back and forth. And while hes got 14 specific issues, prosecutors are saying he has with his gag order, he has been very, very different inside this try youve seen them in person. Weve gotten the reduction control, very controlled, not reacting too much. I think theres a smirk care and their eyes are closed passing notes back and forth, but i its a dramatic contrast to pass trials and we know why, right . And if you remember the E Jean Carroll trial was also before a jury and during e. Jean carrolls testimony, trump was muttering things out loud that when they took a break, the aging carrolls lawyers said hes saying which tante saying these words that they thought the jurors could hear, and then during the closing arguments, when carrolls attorney had just started, he stood up and walked out and that was such a shock being there covering that, seeing him just get up and leave. And the judge even stopped it and said, for the record, donald trump just got up and exited the courtroom because he wanted that in the record for any appeal in this case, there was just one moment early on during Jury Selection where trump was as the judges the one who put this on the record. Also in this case, and he said as a juror was leaving leaving the room, this was something they were questioning a social media post on donald trump as the judge put, it, was muttering something and was gesturing in the direction of the juror and he directed him. He said, there is no juror intimidation in this courtroom. Am i making myself Crystal Clear so that in a sense was laying down the judges tolerance for Something Like this. And it seems like probably his lawyers have spoken to him a lot about this, but also the judge already making a line here that hes not going tolerate and maybe to your point, just at the end of the de just quickly makes a quickly makes a ruling trump has just walked in the foreign president has walked in to the courtroom as we said, they were anticipating this fully resuming at 2 15 eastern time and right now its 2112 12. So he is back and it looks like they are going to keep this tightly the scheduled areas and were going to take a break and come right back. And ill be bringing you this trial live. Is it resumes . Every piece of evidence, tells a story how it really happened with jesse l. Martin sunday at nine on cnn nothing comes close to this place in the morning. Im so glad i can still come here. You see i was diagnosed with Obstructive Hcm and there were some days i was so short of breath. I thought id have to settle for never stepping foot on this trail again. I became great. At making excuses, but i have people who count on me. So i talked to my cardiology i said there must be more we can do from my symptoms. He told me about a medication called camp sales. He said camps ios works by targeting whats causing my obstructive hdl. So he prescribed it and im really glad he did. Kims ios is used to treat adults with symptomatic Obstructive Hcm. 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They had a hearing on that on tuesday. Were still waiting eating for the ruling on that one, which i hope i expect kopan should come anytime now, sometimes soon. Now, whats happening now is in addition to that the da is saying, now, here are four more times just in the last day or so where we believe donald trump has again violated your gag order, and the judge has said, okay, im going to hear you out. Were going were going to have a hearing on that as well. So hes not yet ruled that donald trump has violated the gag order, but now we have two sets pending. We have the original 11 potential violations. And now for more you have to rule by. I mean, this isnt every question. He hasnt ruled on he could he could simply just ignore it all together. I mean, i think part of the problem here is the judge sort of invited this by not having ruled sooner and given more clarity of the court. Now the question is, does he rule twice because he rolls as elie said, on the first 11 and then the second four, or delay whenever ruling he issues and just do all 15 and has been that he will issue as punishment the ruling of trumps violating the gag order while the court is in session. Yes. So trumps lawyers will hear what he has to say. Theres a disciplinary element to this. I mean, i think the judge, if all the judge did was a german court for the day hey, and then publish a Written Ruling that popped up on the docket sheet that wouldnt have any impact. I believe the judge is going to address donald trump directly and tell him in so many words knock it off and moreover, it is about maintaining discipline and order in the courtroom. Theres two different purposes youre one of them is ensuring that the defendant does not continue to engage in the same way in the future, but also reminding the people that step into your courtroom that you are in charge. This is your domain, not you, mr. Defendant, you dont get to set the rules for sort of these extra out sayyed statements that are targeting jurors prison. So on and i just think the judge has sort failed in a way up until hes been hes done able job in so many other areas, but in terms of maintaining discipline in this keep coming in in real time, right . Because the former president did a affiliate Television Interview with wpvi, philadelphia battleground from pennsylvania earlier this week. And trash Michael Cohen and that immediately became one of the ones at the prosecution then introduced today. As yet another violation of the gag order. I think he made other comments about the political makeup of the jury and going right at the jury, which again, the prosecution says is in violation of the gag order. So with each passing day as donald trump test the boundaries of this, the prosecution comes in the next day. Its like heres more and so at some point thats going to become a little unruly. Ones got to imagine the judge is going to lay out the ground rules here in a more substantial the president says, you know, hes just responding to what Michael Cohen is doing. Michael cohen is now saying hes not going to tweak anymore about donald trump, at least thats really time. But for the time being thats what he said. So maybe and the president today did not come out and say anything about cohen when he went into court . So maybe the message is getting through a little bit. I mean, we dont know the answer, but i dont know how the judge feels. He can potentially affect donald trump because can anyone can his attorneys can a judge i mean, whos to say that . What would be and lets be clear. No more than 15,000 fine i know it would be up to 1,000 per violation. The judge is not going to put the former. I think, but the foreign president behind bars for these infractions thus far in his, i believe, his last civil case, it was after the fines were assessed and then raised and then paid that the president actually started complying and behaving better so there might be a way of ensuring better conduct hereafter, but but youre right, its a particular defendant that that many people that arent citizen le were to do what trump has done 12 or 15 violations of the judges a court order. This would that average person be eligible to go to jail . Oh eligible. And i think quite likely. I mean, im not being hyperbolic or this has to be an alltime world record. I mean, ive seen people occasionally breach a judges order breach one of the courtroom rules. Once maybe twice. I tried some bad guy hi, so we didnt really care about rules, but ten times 12 times 15 times. This is unseen in my experience, i cant think of any precedent for this have been yet ruled as well, violating the gag adjudication. Its an allegation or were assuming the judge is going to the rule that these violations. Its really important to note that point that you made david, which is that we associate Donald Trumps conduct with what happened in other cases and other statements hes given and so on in this trial, has not been formally reprimanded in any way, has not had a fine or a prison time, which again, not going to happen i thank we have to separate those two things. Yes. The former president has a long history of misbehaving and courtrooms. But what matters under new york law is what he has done in front of this judge. What the judge has warned me cant do. And what one finds the judge assesses two. Thats within the kind of legal confines of the conversation, whereas i think he he is right now arguing that he deserves immunity for all things and all scenarios. So its not a stretch for him to march out of the courtroom whenever he wants. And essentially speak out of turn, right. If what youre trying to show to your supporters and voters is a disdain for the system that you believe is corrupt, then youre going to a push this line and this is where this is so complex for this judge to be one of the first people to really have to deal with a former president in this man until trump believes that its not doing them any good anymore. And that, and i dont know when he reaches reaches that point politically, he may have reached that point, started talking about the gdp today instead of talking about the unfair trial. So at some point when he believes it is actually hurting him politically, maybe hell change, but i dont know that weve gotten there yet. Weve just learned that david pecker le is back on the stand right now. Hes already testified for more than five hours. Hes going to testify this afternoon for at least a couple of more hours and then maybe come back tomorrow. Fact that the prosecution is spending so much time with david pecker. What does that say to you . How important of a witness is he . I think david pecker, when all is said and done, well probably be the second most important witness in this trial after of course, Michael Cohen putting aside the possibility of donald trump himself taking the stand, which would certainly changed the calculus what you want in your lead off here, what you want in your first witness as a prosecutor is someone who can take the jury inside, who can lay the foundation. So the jury now understands. I think probably a more detailed than they ever wanted hoped needed are expected. What catchandkill is, and how it works they also understand who the key players are, okay, on the ami side, weve got david pecker and then weve got his lieutenant, dylan howard on the other side. Weve got donald trump, and weve got his lieutenant Michael Cohen, the jury understands who communicated with who they understand the basics. Now, if the trial were to end right now, it would be not guilty because the prosecution is only beginning to put on his kates. They have not established all the elements of the crime, nor could you possibly do that as a prosecutor with your first witness. So if im prosecutor and we have to withhold judgment until after cross, but im pleased with What David Pecker has done so far. I think hes laid the foundation and i think hes brought the jury into this world we just their learning that todd blanche one of trumps lawyers, leaned over whispering to trump as pecker walks up to the stand, trump persons lips and not really a thing. Oh, i do not read anything into who what attorneys do at the table. It could be something innocuous literally. Oh man, i forgot to go to the bathroom. I mean, its its it could be it could be nothing to add onto what eliot saying. I think the important thing about pecker obviously is hell corroborate Michael Cohen, but he has to be a credible witness. And i think so far at least from what we can garner, he has been a credible witness. Yes. Hes offered details. Hes talked about Michael Cohen and the deals they made, his interactions with donald trump he just doesnt seem crossexamined, actually havent seen Cross Examination yet, but so far, he comes across as credible. Well see what happens on cross those lawyers started leaning when you said that because i reckon thats exactly the point. Its crossexamination person im sorry. Right. Thats the trial is resuming right now. The jury is back in the courtroom. Everybody stick around, are special live coverage will continue right after a break rionda, new album is breaking records gets to say what country is comey country beyond, say a nashvilles renaissance, april 26, streaming exclusively on maths. Youve found that youre Kayak Company because you love the ocean, not spreadsheets you need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed, you do. 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The form present in the room, the lawyers, the jury they are all there and that cross that direct examination is continuing joining us now is an attorney who at one time represented trump, Tim Parlatore. So youve been in these situations, of course, tim, you know, you worked with them i just want to take take stock of where we are. Hes back in that room we do know that the judge is moving ahead with at least four of those alleged violations of the gag order that the prosecution had put forth to move to censure on that, but not a broader ruling yet. So thats that context is now on top of the fact that hes in the room right now with david pecker on the stand will give us a sense of what you think is mindset is right now and it seems like tim cannot hear me all right. So well see if we can okay. While were working on that, ill just give everyone a sense of what we know is happening in the room. Are reporters are in there and basically filing, typing as i would tell his good soldier feel like theyre getting shoulder injuries. But whats actually happening and right now to 31 Text Messages between dylan howard and Keith Davidson Karen Mcdougals attorney are on the screen and some of these have been important. Theres been a significant backandforth between attorneys on what are there some of these texts, messages can be submitted. The screens in the courtroom are now showing a photo of dylan howard at the white house. Dylan howard was the Editor In Chief of the National Enquirer, worked under david pecker and theyre talking about this meeting at the white house, which david pecker is just testifying. Two was according to him, a thank you. Dinner that trump was hosting for the team of the National Enquirer for what, what pecker has made clear was the help that they gave trump during the election in some of these catch and kill schemes, including the Karen Mcdougal scheme that we have. A lot of question questions earlier today and also now of course, the Stormy Daniels one texts on july 12, 2017 from Keith Davidson to dylan howard reeds how goes it and there was another one i know wolf that they have been dead. Theres debate, debate or whether over whether it will be allowed between those two. One of the attorneys and dylan howard, the former Editor In Chief one of them saying, what have we done on Election Night when trump actually won the white house . Wolff . Yeah, a lot of details emerging right now in hi stuff inside the white house with it then former president of the United States. And what was going on with all these allegations that have been leveled against them, including various criminal allegations were watching this very closely and Elliot Williams its not just sleeves that were reporting right now that were these are serious criminal violations that trump is facing. And potentially could wind up in serious trouble. He could wind up in serious trouble. And to your point its important for a jury to strip away the sleeves and the details and just get to and this is what prosecutors are trying to do, get to number one, where were their Financial Transactions made. What purpose were those transactions made for . And was that purpose for influencing a campaign . All the stuff about the porn and the money and the tabloids. Yes, its salacious but it isnt entirely relevant to the underlying prosecutors are trying to do. And not the defense. I think wants to an ought to want to muddy the waters by focusing the jury on how crazy and salacious at all it is quite all. But as a prosecutor, what you really want to do is just stick to the facts wolff to that point. Again, weve said and ill skin continue saying it, catch and kill, hush money, not a crime. I think it was paul begala who said its the economy stupid, do i have that right . Historically, james james, how the other one . James carville, who said its the economy stupid. I think a tagline for this cases, its the accounting stupid. Its not the actual hush money purchasing. Its the way that donald trump and Michael Cohen and others set up the repayment to Michael Cohen on the Stormy Daniels payoff. That is the crime here that that well get to that david pecker does not know about that. He wouldnt be in position to know about that, but he setting the stage for them and i will add one little thing to that. What is most newsworthy . I acknowledge is all of these details about the Human Element and the sayyed too, all of this, what is legally most relevant is probably the guy with the green eye shade who will come testify at some point about Accounting Practices then the Trump Organization about how they handled and maintained their records, what they did with them, and what they knew about what the purpose of what they were doing was. That ends up being about pecker, is that he refused to pay for Stormy Daniels Karen Mcdougal was one thing, but he didnt want to pay for Stormy Daniels, whether it was cushy was a porn star or whatever is he said, im not a bank. Im not going to pay for stormy. So that takes you out of his bank account into Donald Trumps organization, into Michael Cohen, into Michael Cohen laying out the money im trying to get reimbursed and not really being successful at that. So i think what pecker does is he sets it up and says, well, that was a bridge too far, stormy was a bridge too far for me and for the National Enquirer. And i told Michael Cohen, if you want to pay or youre going to have to do it. And thats exactly what happened. And when were talking about the hush money david xiaolei going the allegation is that its all related to criminally getting involved in Campaign Finance Election Interference. And these are serious, serious allegations. Yeah. I mean, as weve discussed just paying hush money is not a crime. Thats thats not a legal here. This is all about attaching the Hush Money Payments to trying to defraud the public in an election and this was an remember, i know defrauding elections is something in elections is something we discussed it in terms of the context of the Supreme Court immunity case this morning that related to the 2020 election. This is about Donald Trumps first election in 2016. This is candidate donald trump and when pecker was on the stand and asked about whether he knew that this was in violation of Campaign Finance laws. He said he did understand that this was my as a part of me understood. Later, perhaps i dont know if he knew at the time, but as a part of his agreement with prosecutors, have this nonprosecution agreement and understood at this point that at least testifying today, that what he was conducting was in violation of campaign by very quickly, these are not just criminal violations that are misdemeanors. Felonies. So exactly what brings this from a misdemeanor. The accounting makes it a misdemeanor. What brings it up to a felony is that Campaign Connection that weve been seeing a lot of testimony about the david and ellen and gloria. Everyone has been talking about was the motive here. We need to cover this up for the campaign or was it we need to protect donald trump and his wife and his children from humiliation. 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Right now, the former National Enquirer publisher, david pecker, is on the stand and Donald Trumps hush money Criminal Trial, and joining us now, an attorney who at one time represented trump, Tim Parlatore and i know weve got communications back. Those watching. We know we had an issue, but were good now, tim, so let me start with theyre there in the room right now and im trying to get your sense of trumps mindset right now. The context on it, of course, is that hes been in that room all de were nearing maybe the end of david pecker is direct testimony and the judge has indicated cause for at least four of the alleged Gag Order Violations since against trump at the prosecution brought justice this morning i mean, i think that his his mood is probably much the same as its been throughout. I think hes this is incredibly frustrating for him to have to sit there and not be allowed to stand up and defend themselves and to not be the person in charge. And so i think that thats continuing and i think that the gag order ruling is certainly going the only compound that so i can certainly see an immense amount of frustration there an immense amount of frustration and also im curious what you make of the people who are surrounding him. Im not talking about his attorneys, obviously, theyre in theyre doing their job, but when he just walked back into the room, tim, after the lunch break one of the individuals with him from his current inner circle is Boris Epshteyn aboard stuff, of course, was di did last night and for Election Fraud and the state of arizona hes there front and center with trump, right now what do you read into that . I mean, i think hes probably trying to make some kind of a statement that he standing by boris here, notwithstanding this new indictment boris is has been there for awhile and its kind of wellpublicized. My differences with boris. I never i never had a problem with the client directly. My problem is always with me people around them, specifically boris and so anybody whos hoping that this indictment we remove him at least for now, it appears thats not happening no, its certainly appears its not, but it also shows that the current legal team that Boris Epshteyn is still there. You still like getting fact or hes still there in that room . What do you what do you think that means trump case well, you got to remember todd blanche was brought in as boris is lawyer initially. And so boris brought him in to represent himself in the jack smith investigation. Then he expanded his role to also cover these other cases and cod has an obvious affinity and loyalty to boris one that people like myself in jim trusty did not have so tim, i want to ask you at some of the evidence coming in now pecker is david pecker is of course, on the stand. At this moment, but there was something earlier that happened right before the lunch break. There was a text message between dylan howard, the Editor In Chief of the National Enquirer, and what they describe as essentially a firstdegree Family Member, i guess an immediate Family Member now, im going to tell you what the text says, but right now the defense raise an objection, so its unclear whether this tax will be allowed to be shown to the jury. The discussion about it happened with the jury was not in the room. But the text is very significant, perhaps him it dylan howard texts, this Family Member, quote, of trump, at least if he wins, ill be pardoned four Election Fraud. Again, dylan howard, the Editor In Chief of the National Enquirer, who was leading up so many of these catch and kill payoffs. And then packers now testifying to himself and dylan howard being at the white house for what pecker calls was a thank you dinner from trump for the work that they did to help him get elected what is the significance of this . And a text like that . They are able to get it admitted for the jury. What could it mean texts like that are problematic because its certainly shows the somebody at least believed that they were committing a crime at the time i heard about how pecker also said that he didnt know at the time that this was a Campaign Finance violations. The problem is that neither one of those two individuals are lawyers and they dont know for a fact whether it is, it Campaign Finance violations. This this type of activity is something that the Supreme Courts decision in Citizens United it its an open question as to whether it is even is illegal. So i think that thats one of the things since is that they have to have the court rule on. Is this something that actually has probative value that they knew that their committing a crime or is it more of a joke or is this something that that he saying this just simply not true . So i think that we really need the judge to weigh in and make a clear ruling on whether there was illegality in this in light of the Citizens United decision right. And that of course we dont have a ruling from the judge on that. There had been an objection and as we know, a sidebar conversation, but we dont yet have that. All right, tim, thanks so much. Glad to speak with you. All right. Thank you tim. All right. Tim parlatore and our special coverage continues ahead live from. The nations, capital, one of the most unforgettable nights in dc thats wonderful. Read back here again, President Biden and comedian Collin Joseph headline the light house Correspondents Dinner Live Saturday at seven eastern on cnn. We had take our old gas heating and radiant heat that was a really, really huge project. Who has the type as a toddler mom, i do not i was so overwhelmed. 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Paula, give us the big takeaways of what the justices said well, if its clear that a majority of the Supreme Court is not likely going to be willing to just toss the special counsels federal prosecution of the former president. But its still unlikely that any trial would happen soon. Justice kagan really crystallized one of the big issues with throwing this case out at the beginning, noting that the point of founding this country was to get away from a monarch who had absolutely no accountability. But then it becomes a question of, okay, well, how much accountability does a president have when it comes to the criminal Justice System . And there was a really important exchange between Justice Amy Coney barrett, of course, appointed by trump, and trumps lawyer first, where she got them really for one of the first times to concede that some of the acts that are detailed in a special counsels indictment really werent part of trumps official job when he was in the white house. Lets take a listen you can see the private acts dont get immunity we do. Okay. And i want to know if you agree or disagree about the characterization of these acts is private petitioner turned to a private attorney, was willing to spread knowingly false claims of Election Fraud to spearhead is challenges to the election results. Private dining would dispute the allegation, but sounds private. It sounds private petitioner conspired with another private attorney who caused the filing blinken chord of a verification signed by petitioner that contain false allegations to support a challenge. Sounds bright. Three private actors to attorneys, including those mentioned above, and a political consultant helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of president ial electors to obstruct the certification proceeding and petitioner and a coconspirator attorney directed that effort you ready to quickly i believe that its private thats really significant. So a revision for what weve heard in the past. So the chief justice really laid out the next issue, which is that he and the other justices dont believe that the lower courts spent enough time when they rejected trumps argument, trying to suss out what exactly is an official act . What was he doing in his private capacity . So off it seems like were were going here. Is that the court will likely set up some kind of test or parameters or the court will lay out how you figure that out, but then it sends the entire case back to the lower courts to be real litigated, possibly making its way up to the Supreme Court but this is why, even if trump doesnt win here legally, its still a strategic win for him because the whole point has been to delay. And if he is reelected, he can make this entire case go away. So the question now is, how quickly do we get this answer from the Supreme Court . And if they toss it back down, how long does it take this case to move forward . Will it happened before . Or november . Seems unlikely. If he said it back to a lower court, that would delay delay delay it. That would be a huge win, at least in the short term for the former president who wants this delayed until after the election, are paula, thank you very, very much and stay with cnn are special coverage is about to continue the sinking of the titanic. How would really happen, especially while were premiere sunday at nine on cnn upon his first day of retirement, markers, rogers made a contract with themselves. I will never again work on another man or woman oh, todd especially common. 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Today, the former president s legal cases, they are colliding hes in that happen in a manhattan courtroom and some of his lawyers, were here in washington trying to convince the United States Supreme Court that he should be shielded from federal charges. But aaron trump didnt hear those historic arguments at the Supreme Court yeah no well, if he didnt because he was in that courtroom, as you said, here in manhattan behind me here heard more testimony from his onetime friend, david pecker, the former Tabloid Executive, has been questioned now for more than five hours, all in and throughout today, he is still on the stand and a key moment just played out as pecker recalled, a conversation that he had with trumps former attorney and fixer, Michael Cohen. Its conversation happened after cohen and received a letter from the federal Elections Commission and pecker tells cohen, quote, we committed a Campaign Violation cohens response according to pecker said he wasnt worried because quote Jeff Sessions is the Attorney General and donald trump hasnt been his pocket all right. Kara scannell, Phil Mattingly are with me. All right. So i mean thats in black and white from both them. We committed it Campaign Violation and this was in response the response which is jarring to read, i think the one caveat here is that this is Michael Cohen and perhaps he was being blustering are being boisterous because no question that the former president thought many of the cabinet officials were at his explicit direction. But the context of the started conversation where this came out was the prosecution walking pecker through the nonprosecution agreement that ami reached with Justice Departments has a lot of facts inside it within it but its also i believe as judge merchan framed, it is. This is how youre able to this should help you assess the credibility of the witness that youve been listening to over the course of the last several days and the prosecution wants that credibility to be very well understood. But i think when were talking about during the commercial break, you see the comment from Michael Cohen that dont dont worry about that thing from the fec because the justice Attorney General is in the current president foot now former president s pocket, but also theres another conversation that was read out just a little while earlier, which was that there had been a conversation, a phone call that pecker was on with Sarah Huckabee sanders than a white house official and hope hicks, close adviser to the former president and then a white house official about extending the agreement that am i had reached with Karen Mcdougal. So when you talk about whether or not that has an impact on the case itself. But again, getting a window into not just trumps pre white house operations but now even the white house having actual white house staff on the phone talking about disagreement and extending it in, recommending that itd be extended. Again, paint a fuller picture of not just the former president as an individual or the foreign president before he took office. But who knew in the white house and how important they thought it was to keep this going and care. What do you make of what were seeing right now, packer right now on the statement, theyre having read the agreement, read the statement of facts line by line. Right. And this is the im prosecution agreement that am i reached with the us trainees office for the Southern District of new york, right . When they were investigating Michael Cohen, which ultimately led to Michael Cohens guilty plea of Campaign Finance violations. And this statement of facts thats part of it. Deal is literally What David Pecker has been testifying to this meeting at trump tower in august 2015 when this alleged conspiracy was reached between donald trump, Michael Cohen cohen, and david pecker. And then going through the Karen Mcdougal deal in great detail. So the prosecutor is having david pecker go through and identify that as Karen Mcdougal. Thats a reference to this this person all too back up because this is a legal document, all to backup the testimony that pecker is just given. What thing at one point where the statement of facts first to a president ial candidate running for election in the United States of america. He said, i know this is silly question, but who are you referring to or who does that refer to and pecker had to point to donald trump right . An interesting, i think also, what do you make kara having been in the room so much at the lawyers, having to choose this to be pecker, to actually have to read it aloud to the jury. And now were seeing the description trumps sitting back in his chair as arms folded across his chest, he appears to be reading the nonprosecution agreement on the screen in front of them. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing when theres evidence thats introduced, it goes up on these monitors and every juror has the monitor right in front of them. And donald trump has won it in front of him and so they can all follow along. But theyre having when prosecutors do this, theyre underscoring. They could just put up the document until the jury they can read it later. Its now entered into evidence the exclamation point strategy, yes. They are underscoring each element of this to say that what you just heard from david pecker is backed up by this document. And so they want to really just use it to right. To bolster his credibility with the jury and the judge gave an instruction on this to st. Of the jury. You can infer Donald Trumps guilty because david pecker agreed to sign a nonprosecution agreement theyre not supposed to use it that way, but it certainly is making it quite clear that david pecker admitted that he committed a crime here. He just didnt get prosecuted for it because he cooperated. And obviously youve been in a rooms so much but refill you spending so much time covering the former president and seeing him. The description here sitting back in a chair with his arms folded across his chest, that particular motion expression i know were supposed to you to read all kinds of things into body language. But even for him, there are certain moments where he actually does the arms cross. Yeah, the one that comes to mind is i believe theres either a g7 or nato meeting where hes surrounded by foreign leaders that it became like this famous picture with angela merkel, like leaning over the table and it looked like he was being barraged by foreign leaders who disagreed with his policy or his positions on these things. And it was very much like the epa kidsteam frame. That this is america first, this is him standing up against european allies, but it became a famous pose and pastor and youve seen many pictures on it. It gets described as that as as well. I continue to go back though. Is as hes doing this right now the lack of reaction that weve seen three throughout, this is about as a motive, as he has gotten based on our you going in the courtroom based on our team thats been watching him safe for passing some notes, whispering to his lawyer every once in a while, well see what he says afterwards. The steam is hey, clear, hes going to be speaking after court. Hes been doing that regularly is definitely going to do that today. But keeping things very much controlled and contained, right . And well see you when he speaks, sayyed does the prosecution come in alleged more Gag Order Violations as they didnt . Good they got four through so waiting on the original ruling of what was in ten or 11 of them. All right. Karen fill were all here. Wolf down to you all right. Aaron. Thanks very much. And were just getting worried that pecker is confirming now in the course of this trial that he signed what was called a Cooperation Agreement with the manhattan District Attorneys office back in October Of 2019 . Right and that hes hes testifying about that. What do you make . Yes. So first of all, this signals to me to prosecutors are about wrapping up their direct examination with david pecker. This is the kind of thing you would do at the end to show the jury what is the deal that you are here under now . The history, david pecker is important. The Southern District of new york federal prosecutors mild office started meeting with david pecker when they were investigating Michael Cohen. They ended up prosecuting michael oh, and they made a decision to give david pecker what we call a nonprosecution agreement, which is mostly what it sounds like. You will testify. We will not prosecute you, but it says in there that you, david pecker, an ami were involved in federal Campaign Finance crimes. Now, what happened after that . Is the state took over the das office and the das office entered into it, essentially similar Cooperation Agreements. So the way the parties are going to argue this is this. The di is going to say, look, folks, hes laying it all out on the line. Hes told you everything hes got nothing to hide. His incentive right now is to tell the full truth. Otherwise, hes going to lose this agreement with us. The defense, trumps team is going to say no, no, no. Hes in their pocket all he wants to do is please them because theyre the ones who gave him a sweetheart deal out for up to the jury. Ultimately, we dont have juries usually assess these kinds of nonprosecution agreement so im interested to hear what eliot things, but in my experience nonprosecution and Cooperation Agreements usually are held up by juries. Usually juries understand the deal, they get it, and what theyre always looking for is corroboration. Theyre never going to rarely are they going to credit . David pecker, Michael Cohen, just for their work. Theyre going to say, well, how does that testimony fit in with the documents in the other testimony . Yeah. I mean, ive prosecuted gang members and someone who have really ugly convictions in their past. And frankly, if you have enough of them saying the same thing, eventually the jury starts to believe what theyre saying, but it doesnt help. Now, what the prosecution hes doing is making sure to be the first ones to point all this information out so that the defense doesnt do because the defense can weaponize it if they bring out for the first time, someone has a prosecution Cooperation Agreement for nonprosecution agreement, they want to come clean kind of collisionally as this testimony from pecker seems to be winding down, at least right now, pecker also testified that this may be significant. Im anxious to get your thoughts that trump actually invited him to what was described as a thank you dinner in the white house back in 2017. Is that significant for the prosecutions case . Yes and no. In that it establishes an ongoing relationship with them, the problems they can be thanking him for being a friend, could be thanking him for suppressing information from Donald Trumps wife and in children, which would not be a crime. It could help. And its more evidenced that helps bolster the rest of their case, but its certainly not. Donald trumps not gonna be convicted on the basis of that one fact and what does it say to you . And the mattress led to get your thoughts as well . That the National Enquirer was publishing nice things about trump. But going after trumps arrivals for the republican nomination back in 2016, like ted cruz, marco rubio, and others. So it gives a sense of the scope of the catch and kill concept that sort of how much they were in the tank. Well, for the foreign present. And again, a big part, this is almost like theres two parts to there are a few parts of the case. One is the relationships and the salacious stuff that we know about, but also the nuts and bolts of how did the Financial Transactions go down . You need both in order to be able to get the jurys heads. And i think that looking at this dinner, which is so interesting, that kind of thank you dinner peckers also reporting that at the end of it, the president privately asked him how karen how karen was doing currently dealing karen . Yes. Referring to Karen Mcdougal and pecker said, shes quiet things are things are fine, but this just gives you a window into the president s thinking hes in the white house the Karen Mcdougal story has already been out there. And hes inviting pecker to say, thank you for being my friend. And still is asking about Karen Mcdougal and i like that as a prosecutor because these details matter the jury is going to remember, ill give you two examples. One, the journey now knows that david pecker was there in trump tower, the day donald trump announced his candidacy, theyre going to remember that. And now they know that he gets invited to the white house and if youre prosecutor saying the reason david pecker was helping donald trump, that was Political Campaign related. Well, you think about the campaign announcement, the white house, these specifics tend to stick and jurors minds honore, what do you think . I think its interesting that its were trying to view this all through the lens of now, when back then, that might have actually been a scandal of some kind, like were coming at this after almost a decade of like so many trumps candles, so many things that seem like this is the craziest thing that could ever happen. And at that time, theyre trying to show there was incentive to the press information that they thought could sway voters because even the access Hollywood Tape at that time was a big news story, was a big moment where people will ask the question, would voters still support this kind of person, et cetera and so were asking everyone to step back and remember what it was like to think something could shock you about donald trump jr. And pecker said, on the stand today, going back to that period after the election, President Elect in trump tower, james comey in the meeting, whatever they all lead. But in that conversation pecker says, hes impression was that in every conversation with Michael Cohen and then every interaction about this, nobody said this was out of concern of the family that he interpreted. He understood the concern to be of the campaign when the President Elected the time thanking him, he and he believed that was thanking him for helping in the Campaign Body to your point, we are discussing allegations unproven thus far that a former president essentially silenced porn stars on account of personal, intimate affairs to keep them from voters. And that is not the biggest legal story of the day involving that person. That it is just important to step back and realize how remarkable this all is that even the case that is regarded as the least serious one confronting the former president is very serious conduct that an any other universe any other world that rational world i dont know. Theres it is embarrassing to the United States. You havent used that word in awhile. I think we should im sorry. But its a poststate Shame Society where this is the kind of conduct baked into the, into the whole ethos so donald trump, right i mean, the audience point, a sex scandal is actually, if you can rewind your brain like a traditional Political Campaign scandal well, as you dont have a magic 2016 that wed be at the Supreme Court about total immunity for the presidency related to attempting to overthrow a legitimate election. And and ransacked the capitol and prevent the Electoral College votes for me counted like that wasnt in the imagination at the time. A traditional old sex scandal that could harm your campaign. That was the world in which we were living in a lot of this was never in our imagination as were beginning to understand what exactly was going on, everybody standby. Were continuing your follow all the Breaking News out of the Hush Money Trial of the former President Donald Trump. The former Tabloid Executive david pecker is on the stand right now. 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Were also told jurors have been taking notes today and our paint paying attention. I want to bring in jury consultants, jason blum and leslie ellis. And thanks to both of you, jason, let me start with you. Youve got an attorney on this panel, so somebody who knows what theyre looking at, even reading this, right . And then on top of it, you have the prosecution having david pecker read this agreement allowed. What do you make of the dura, who is an attorneys reaction to that . Maybe the juror whos an attorney, is questioning some parts of that and thats why youre getting that sort of reaction from him its very interesting though, and i think leslie would agree that weve got at least two jurors on this particular jury panel as well lastly when you also hear the context here that the jury is paying very close attention and taking notes. I remember at the very beginning, we were told more than half of them ive raised their hand when they were offered the ability to take notes. I dont know now, if its all of them are not well see if we get some more color from the room to understand that. But what do you take away from that days into this now, theyre hours into a long day today and that they are sitting there avidly paying attention and taking notes i think there are a lot of reasons for why the jurors are being pretty avidly paying attention when they take notes that can mean a couple of Different Things that can mean something is very important to them what we also dont know what sometimes jurors are just scribbling things down there, doodling. Theyre using it to help focus, to help stay awake, even though it is pretty engaging testimony. These are long days and it can be very uncomfortable to sit there for hours on end taking notes can be as strong indicator of engagement, but it can also mean other things. So i always caution clients not to take too much away from it and dont focus too much. Im trying to read the tea leaves all right two Significant Developments here, as were speaking, jason, the prosecution has concluded that means that pecker is done from dirac. Theyre going to move to crossexamination. They could start that. Well see see how far they get over this next hour or so the court is slated to be in session, but what do you make of what the prosecution did with pecker . They have now formally concluded his direct examination yeah. What i would want to note is whether or not they used pecker to connect the dots towards a crime certainly a lot of information has come out about what the former president has done in terms of paid money the role of the National Enquirer. But did the prosecution actually connect the dots to the elements of a crime . Is this a crime is probably what some of the jurors are wondering. Some maybe even asking themselves, wheres the beef how does this rise to the level of a crime . But the most telling part is going to be the crossexamination of this witness. Its more of a stress test for not only his truthfulness, but also so his bias and less of that crossexamination is set to begin, and ill just keep you posted as it starts, but yes, it is beginning trumps attorney, emil bove, is taken in the podium to begin the crossexamination of david pecker. So from the perspective of the jury, theyve been hearing now over several days broken up, and i think thats important, emphasized broken up the direct examination of pecker. Now you have the crossexamination starting theyre not going to sleep on it. Its not going to start to morning tomorrow morning. It starting right now. What do you think about that from . What it means for the jury they will definitely have overnight before they hear the completion of the cross id be surprised if they finished it today so theyll have a lot of time to think about it if they choose to think about it. One of the things that jurors do look pretty closely at what when it comes to direct versus crossexamination is the demeanor of the witness. And day today, how does that demean or change or not . So jurors focus quite a lot on the content of what witnesses say, but they also focus on the demeanor that ange from direct across data de morning to afternoon depending on the content. And if they can draw any connections between how a witness is acting in the subject of what it is theyre testifying about at that moment. All right. Jason, leslie, thank you both very much and much more of our special live coverage continues here as david pecker is now under crossexamination by the defense team as of just a moment ago, here in manhattan the white house Correspondents Dinner Live Saturday at seven eastern khan, cnn, shallow cancer is, its hard, but st. 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What you sent me up doc told him was a dummy were following the Breaking News as former National Enquirer publisher, david pecker testifies in Donald Trumps hush money Criminal Trial in new york. Our panel of experts or is back with us, write down and Elliott Williams prosecution has concluded their questioning more than at least five, six hours. It went on and on and on. Now the defense is crossexamining as we all know, did the prosecution achieve what they were trying to achieve . Yes. What they were trying to achieve is number one, put david pecker in the room with donald trump in august 20 2015, pardon me. But put the two of them in the room, established the scheme establish an understanding of how catch and kill and the Business Model of ami and the National Enquirer or worked, they needed to do that. Now, again, you put the testimony out in the world and then have the defense have their way with them and they are going to beat him up. Were seeing it now on the screen as well. Theyre ready talking about his profit motive merely saying, oh, you werent a charity sort of saying that well look, you run this to make the money to. But but as far as what prosecutors needed to do, of course, they succeeded because right now trumps attorney is asking me pecker to describe other instances where ami American Media inke thats the Parent Company of the National Enquirer, would purchase a story including sometimes quote, as leverage against the celebrity. Yeah, this is the place where adi and i disagree a little bit about the how people regard journalists and journalism whether they see it as thats just, its just an achy business and this is just another extension of it. Or if jurors will regard what they see here as something so distasteful that theyll hold it against this particular windows we tend to take the view that people just find this stuff disgusting. And the defense is really sort of wagging the child, so i dont technically consider it journalism, but for saying that, pardon . But i like you guys pointing this out about the leverage against a celebrity because again, its trying to pull this out of the column of campaigns elections, where the prosecutor wants the public, as well as the jury to think about this to say actually, theres a whole range of reasons why you operate the way you do. And its not just because you really wanted to help this person who wanted to be president and i think its going to be interesting to see how this former publisher starts to justify all of that kind of work. They want to show that he has a lot of selfinterest in this than he was he was gaining access through donald trump and using donald trump also in many ways. But i think the main thing about david pecker is that hes going to be the key corroborating witness for Michael Cohen, humans, we all know has some credibility issues here. And while they may try and use the nonprosecution agreement as a way to check challenge peckers credibility i think that they went a long way towards establishing that pecker was a truth teller here and had nothing to hide since he was under some obligation to tell well, the truth as the result of the nonprosecution agreement. So when when when Michael Cohen comes to testify, they can then say, well, you were at this meeting with david pecker. You had this phone conversation with david pecker. And so therell be able to tell the same story. And i think thats really important. I know weve been focused on the feud between cohen and trump had said throughout bitcoin has also spent the last two to three years on this crusade to rehabilitate his image to convey to the public that he understands he did some something wrong. And therefore, that is why he is out in the world talking the way he has now, i dont know if that will work, but i wouldnt discount the fact that he has spent the better part of this time basically trying to say look, this is a problem, right . I was part of it. And sometimes people respond to that i made a mistake, but now im moving on. I pay paid for it. For it. Yeah. If you were to Defense Attorney representing trump right now, what would be your main goal and the crossexamination of david pecker, three words credibility, credibility the credibility you attack the witnesses, credibility. I think you do it a few ways. Theyre starting with it right now by just going after the Business Model and the profit motives. Look man, youre just out trying to make a buck here, arent you . Thats pretty sleazy and disgusting. You wouldnt use those words, but thats the implication youre making to the jury. Number one. Number two, i would talk about the nonprosecution agreement and number three, any Cooperation Agreements he might have with with law enforcement, what those last two things do is suggest that he has an incentive to not be true hes in cahoots with these visible at the defense would say and prosecution includes with the prosecutors, hes not really being straightforward. Dont believe, but the prosecution says about hes afraid of getting in trouble for lying. No hes bending his story because he doesnt want to go to jail and you just hammer that point again and again and again and hope that the jury just start to miss trust that ive another question you mentioned that the august 2015 meeting that one of the things that prosecution did, was sort of put pecker in the room with with trump. But we know theres a limited number of actual trump pecker direct interactions and so much of this was through Michael Cohen how problematic is it for the overall case . Not at all, yours. Well, its what, four or five meetings be more valuable than one. Of course but you have a few things you have, number one, you have pecker, Michael Cohen also hope hicks was in and out of that room, a former white house staffer, hope hicks, was in an out of the room and can testify as to what she saw. Number to some of that the prosecutors do their jobs, will rely on financial records and youll have people coming in and authenticating and saying where the checks were, why they were written what people knew about them. Of course, more meetings would have been better, but you one can be convicted on the basis of one meeting between the defendant and meetings with donald trump dont forget. All right. And theres right. Right. Yeah, thats interesting, gloria, because pecker has testified that he stoked sitters trump, a friend mentor. Pecker said, and im quoting him now i felt that donald trump was my mentor. He helped me throughout my career. I think thats probably true. I think it was a mutually beneficial relationship. Remember early on pecker said trump would let them know where there were parties and would invite him to parties. And that was good access for the for the newspaper and for pecker himself. It took him to a certain level of society that he wanted that he wanted to be a part of. And so i think it was competitive also it was competing with tabloids and donald trump gave him a leg up many times by feeding them information. So trump was not only a source but he he gave him access i think it worked for both of them. One other detail that we got about the pecker trump relationship, which i thought was so interesting this testimony, Michael Cohen, who worked for donald trump was hes complete loyal, supplicant and aid. And what have you was going to pecker to help get his Christmas Bonus, pay that he thought rather than go to his boss directly and saying, hey, i want to make sure i get my Christmas Bonus. Lesson, whether or not thats an allusion to other its also interesting, david, that trump, i said in the course in court whatever he speaks publicly, he suggests that trump is facing several legal battles right now, as we all know, how do you think so far this is resonating with voters . Well, i dont think we know the answer to that yet. I think i think voters are paying attention to this. Some voters, i dont think all voters are paying attention to this, but i do think that this is going to captivate the attention of some segment of the electorate, but to the point about he wishes he could be campaigning. There was no court yesterday. There was no place for donald trump to be. He wasnt on the campaign trail yesterday. So if indeed, i and now theyve announced hes gonna be in michigan and wisconsin next wednesday when theres a break, but i think we have to wait and see this, how this unfolds and how much donald trump uses every moment that hes not required to be in court to actually be campaigning. Were starting to see him do it. Message wise at the courthouse this morning, he made the comments about the economy and gdp and trying to be a bit more on a political message thats a development thats occurred in just the last couple of days. So i think donald trump, right before our eyes, wolf its still figuring out how to be candidate trump in this environment. The caveat though that every morning literally every camera and television station in america is on him when hes stepping out and on the way under court, he has ample opportunity if the wishes outside of the courtroom to politic all he wants which is sorting sort of interesting. The way in which hes chosen to attack the legal system and the process thursdays fridays, not on wednesdays or saturday or sunday. So does or three days out of the week to go to campaign if he wants to if he wants to, keywords everybody stand by. Our special live coverage will continue right after this beyond saves new album is breaking records gets to say what country is comey country beyond, say a nashvilles renaissance. April 26, streaming exclusively on mats hi, its christina again. Im here to tell you about an all new special offer from my friends at jacuzzi bathroom model that you dont want to miss. You already know jacuzzi has been making waterfilled great for more than 65 years. And now theyre bringing you this special tv offer. Were waving all installation costs and postponing in all payments for up to one year to cozy bathroom model has a design you love at a price you can afford and best of all, they can install it. And as little as one day with no stress, had no mess. 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Or Senior Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic was in the room as justices heard the arguments. And dont actually be in that room. And we could hear obviously some of the backandforth, but youre there seeing the players, seeing the interactions one thing that stood out watching it was seemed to be a surprise at some of the justices did not soundly reject trumps immunity claim, like the Appeals Court in dc, obviously, unanimously did thats right, aaron. And its good to see you. It truly was riveting inside the courtroom today, just what historic moment with this untested constitutional question. But then also as you observed, how the justices came out, and really were more sympathetic to former president Donald Trumps lawyer than two jack smiths counsel at the lectern there and many of their it was clear from many of their concerns that they see furious detours are off ramps that the former president and can take before any kind of trial. They might, you say, well, were not going to give you absolute immunity. Well, were going to give you some some immunity here and some defenses for whenever a trial occurs, given the kinds of questions they were asking, the other thing, aaron, i would point up is how they really suggested a real vulnerability on the part of a former president. And lets hear first from Justice Samuel alito on that score yes. A an incumbent who loses a very close hotly contested election knows that a real possibility after leaving office is not that the president is going to be able to go off into a peaceful retirement. But that the president may be criminally prosecuted by a bitter political opponent. Well that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy. And we can look around the world and find countries where we have seen this process, where the loser gets thrown in jail and you know, aaron, that wasnt a concern just of Justice Alito, chief Justice John Roberts also just talked about what kind of asked about what kind of checks are on prosecutors in this sort of situation. How can we just the grand jury . And i just think that in the end, there will be more delays before any kind of trial, even if in the end they reject Donald Trumps outright claim of absolute immunity. Aaron john, thank you very much, but just even the possibility of delays, theyre not that headline so many were expecting wed walk out at the day with all right. Were gonna have live update on the criminal Hush Money Trial. A former President Donald Trump right after this, or reporters in the room. Theyre now talking about other deals pecker had with other celebrities, including former governor of california honore towards and eric, well be right back. 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Healthcare to after care. Community schools can wrap so much around public schools. And through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. Real solutions for kids and communities at aft. Org it out at shine. Com. Manu raju on capitol hill in this is cnn right now, former Tabloid Executive david pecker is on the stand. Hes being crossexamined by trumps defense lawyers, pecker, just confirmed that he had been giving donald trump a headsup about negative stories about trump for about 17 years before the 2016 president ial election seen as grinch ingress is joining us right now, brin, take us through whats happening now yeah. Well, i mean, right out of the gate, trumps defense team is chipping away at the credibility of this witness, who for more than six hours was on the stand trying to build credibility according to the prosecutions testimony there. Right. We are just like your said, seeing the defense based its likely say that david pecker and trump, they had a relationship for decades and it was mutually beneficial that pecker made money for his newspaper when the headlines that red trump and that, you know, these catch and kill stories didnt exactly just happened prior to the election. They happen more than a decade prior he would give trump the headsup about a story and they would let them know that this is something thats out there in the public. And so he even pointed out defense the defense team that the term catching kill pecker wasnt even aware of that term until a prosecutor a prosecutor actually brought that up. To him. One of the things they also talked about is they brought in Arnold Schwarzenegger and the fact that he was the former governor, of course, of california that there were dozens of people that came to the National Enquirer with stories about him. And they were trying to explain to jurors that this wasnt an unusual thing in this exchange. Let me read it to you. It says this relationship kingship, you have with President Trump is a mutually beneficial relationship. You would similar relationships with other people. The Defense Attorney said, i did. Pecker replied, confirming there were other people who would promote in the National Enquirer and give a heads up about negative stories. So the defense team really trying to show this was not an unusual relationship that there was no wrongdoing here here, again, doing it right out of the gate. Now i do think its interesting. Again, they spent more than six hours the prosecution building the credibility of david pecker. They had his testimony. They had brought jurors inside the room in discussions that he would have with Michael Cohen, with donald trump, they would back it up with Text Messages. They would talk about all the discrete ways that hey, would have these sort of backandforth conversations are agreements are negotiations and so itll be interesting to see how the jurors of, you know, take in this crossexamination who read out of the gate, its going through sort of chipping away again at this credibility of pecker brynn gen. Grass reporting for aspirin fact, you very much in our special coverage will continue right after a break welcome to the world of spycraft garage glued to the action. Lets get down. Lets get funky what are you concealing you a communist sympathizer supervisor streaming exclusively on macs every day, more people and more vets are deciding its time for a fresh approach to pet food theyre quitting the kibble and kicking the camps and feeding their dogs. Dog food. Thats actually well food developed with that, made from real meat and veggies portioned for your dog . In delivered right to your door. 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Next on cnn and were back weve been falling all the developments in foreign President Trumps Criminal Trial here in new york, ongoing right now at this moment, the x tabloid publisher, david pecker is being crossexamined by trumps lawyers. I finished the direct move straight to the cross. We do know the former president is set to speak at the conclusion of todays testimony at 4 30. Pm, wolf and of course, well bring you those comments. Ill be coming up at about a half an hour or so. All of this on the same de the us Supreme Court heard arguments on trumps absolute immunity claims. A truly historic day thank you very much for joining us, aaron for joining me and erin for our special coverage. Watch aaron later tonight 7 00 p. M. Eastern for erin burnett outfront. Ill be back 6 00 p. M. Eastern in the situation room jake tapper picks up our special coverage, right now cnn Breaking News hello, and welcome to the lead. Im jake tapper, Donald Trumps criminal hush money cover up trial is underway in manhattan right now, trumps defenste
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