Transcripts For CNNW The 20240704

Supreme court will decide whether donald trump is immune from prosecution in the federal Election Interference currants case. But they also may have just played a major role in his legal strategy. We have new reporting on trumps reaction to it all tonight also, our exclusive interview with senator mitt romney, the only republican senator to vote to convict trump twice. Hell weigh in on what he believes a second trump term would mean. And also a key figure of watergate john dean will join me. What is president nixons white House Counsel make of the ruling that could shape us history. Im Kaitlan Collins this is the source we are feeling shockwaves tonight from the Supreme Court. And if things play out as they now seem, that they will, donald trump will not have to face jack smith in court until deep into 2020. 24 potentially right up against the election, or even more likely after the election. And of course, all of this depends on whether or not he wins that election. In which case he may never have to face jack smith. It all on this case thats because the Supreme Court now says it is going to decide whether donald trump, as a former president , has immunity from being criminally prosecuted for the actions that he took while he was in office, that includes his attempt to overthrow a free and Fair Election in 2020. The Supreme Court waited weeks to announce this decision and did not schedule arguments until the week of april 22. And lets two months from where we sit today. This is after that a federal Appeals Court issued that blistering, but also an importantly unanimous ruling saying that citizen trump is not immune a president of this country has to have, immunity or theyre not going to be able to function in office when they talk about threat to democracy she thats your real threat to democracy and i feel that as a president , you have to have immunity were hearing from sources tonight that trump and his team view this as a win for now course, theyve been working repeating to push his federal trials until after the 2024 election it may get their wish on one of them because this decision means that a ruling from the Supreme Court may not come until late june, even if trump loses on the merits here, which his team im told expects could likely happen. He could actually win on a technicality. It takes time to get to trial going to pick a jury. Trumps attorneys, the doj, the judge here. Judge chutkan well all have to turn their focus to the calendar where there are other court cases expected to be on there. And of course, well ultimately see whether trumps efforts to run out the clock on a trial when it comes to overturning the last election, at least trying to before election day this year paid off. Here tonight, former counsel to attorney to the Attorney General, shan wu, cnn legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams also cnns senior Supreme Court analyst, joan biskupic, and cnn senior Law Enforcement analyst and former Deputy Director of the fbi. Andrew mccabe and joan, let me start with you because we have kind of been waiting and waiting and waiting. What does this mean and what do you make of how they decided to do this now and here this late april they had several weeks to tell us when whether they wanted to intervene. Actually, they had since last december when Special Counsel jack smith first went to the Supreme Court and said, please hear this case. He understands how long it takes to resolve any kind of serious question like whether a former president is immune from criminal trial. He said, please intervene then the justices rejected it in a onesentence order with no explanation. And now theyve waited two weeks after additional filings had come in. Once we had a Dc Circuit Interim Ruling and what it means is they do not embrace a sense of urgency to the extent that Special Counsel jack smith on behalf of the United States and the department of justice has toward trying President Trump. But they did give the Special Counsel something instead of just scheduling it as you normally would any case granted in the month of february, scheduling it for next session, they decided theyd schedule that at least for april arguments, which means we would probably get a ruling at the end of june if its resolved on the same kind of schedule that other cases that will be argued in april, well go. But caitlin, this delay suggests theres plenty of tension behind the scenes. And i could see this being pushed further into summer. And i think the very bottom line here is that this Supreme Court is going to remain at the center of the Election Year controversies and it also means that because of this action today, its unlikely donald trump would be tried in any way on this Election Subversion Claim by summer. And maybe not through all of 2024, the idea that he may be pushed even later, you talk about that tension behind the scenes. I mean, as a former federal prosecutor, what do you make of this . What i make a visit back that judges and particularly the United States Supreme Court, more than any other entity in america operates on its own timeline, operates on its own schedule and has chosen not to face the political realities of the fact that we have an election and prosecutors that want to have a case going on on their own timeline now, to be clear, the Supreme Court, as weve all talked about here on this network, the Supreme Court could have simply taken up the lower court opinion, not taken up per say, but just not not stepped in at all and let that prior opinion stand. It was unanimous. It was clear and quite frankly, its very likely that whatever they do besides somewhat tracks the reasoning in that opinion because the law, at least to me as a lay person, seems pretty clear on this issue about immunity. They have chosen to step in, they are moving i guess fast and Supreme Court terms, but it did not need to take as long as it did. Lets just put it that will shed if youre looking at this, if youre jack smith tonight, how are you viewing with the Supreme Court has decided because to joans point, they didnt move as fast as they could, but they did move faster than they normally do. If im jack smith, im pretty frustrated with this i mean, bestcase scenario. Im tremendously under the gun in terms of the timing. Some things i could try to do, this, speed it up as there to be a shorter prompt prep time, but it makes it really hard and disagree respectfully with elliot. I think it is a very political decision actually, because by them refusing to just let the case stand, they have to have their pawprints on it. They have to get involved when it was a very strong decision. And they could have just want to stand. So they are involved putting well, to be clear, it wasnt saying one isnt a Political Choice at all, or just saying that they we were talking about this before. Its the snooty news of the United States Supreme Court. What it is supreme arrogance what they have done is theyve preserved for themselves the final word on this issue, and they have done it at the expense of ever having these charges and the evidence supported the supporting them ever considered by a fair and impartial jury, because in all likelihood, i mean, its its hard to predict with any degree of confidence because they were so many variables that will fall into place as we get these decisions but i think its the likelihood is that we will not see a trial of these charges before the Jack Smith Point on the question of house jack smith thing. Remember jack smith asked for this case to be taken up by the Supreme Court back in december. They could have addressed the case in sort of jumped over the Appeals Court. And i think they could have because then then it would have answered why they are intervening here because i dont think its bad that theyre intervening generally to say were the Supreme Court, we should have the last word on it. But the point is that theyve delayed it and actually, i would predict right now, they will probably affirm The Dc Circuit to get up if theyre going to be because they are the Supreme Court and they want to have the last word enough of them. Lets remember whos on this court also. There is a 63 conservative liberal majority, but its not just that it breaks down along ideology that way without a lot of justices, several of them whove worked in the executive branch, who takes who take the idea of Separation Of Powers and Executive Authority seriously. So im sure theres some very substantive reasons to get involved. The only question is when and they already deleted from december. And the way this order came down, it already when you say supreme arrogance, you mean because they are going to likely affirm this decision and that they didnt have to take it up. But but as jonah saying, they want it to be them, is that what you mean by that . It is. And i think theres another aspect of this kaitlan. There and i know elliot is going to jump in here and disagree with me vociferously, but thats fine. There is an imperative here about having some finality to these issues. For the voters to be able to consider before the election. Judge chutkan has referenced this in a bunch of her statements and in her rulings on some motions, jack smith has argued it in several different in several different filings, and i would argue that this resolution of these charges is important, not just to people who are not supporters of President Trump and are seeking some desire of accountability for what they perceive as his illegal actions with respect to 2020, but also for trumps supporters, if you want to see donald trump reelected or are elected, you should want him to go on trial and be proven innocent and carry that that vindication into the final months of the campaign. And we could potentially see that in the sense of okay, so lets say that decision does come out in june. Everyones been doing the rough math if they tried to schedule the trial two months later, but because theyve got to have the procedures in place, i mean, could they actually schedule a trial that close to the election . They could schedule a trial that cronus of the election that would be pretty breakneck just so folks understand, it would take roughly two to three months based on sort of the estimates that folks have to get from the day of an opinion, it comes out to coming to trial. Now, the Justice Department has a policy ill see if not taking investigative actions within 60 days of an election. Now, the problem, 36 years when election now the problem is, what about a trial that maybe could have started six months ago or started a few months ago, but carries over into the days before the election. Its sort of in a gray or space now, i think the Just Department still proceed and try to move forward with a trial its closed. So what are the classified documents case is underway in august. And then how does that play here . Because that could certainly complicate that. Thats not going to happen but the classified documents case, i think thats a slow roll but i think maybe neither of the us could go to trial. Oh, absolutely. I think thats a very real possibility that neither of these will go to trial. And just to throw one more wrench into the works if they schedule it and the preparation goes really fast. To me, its not impossible that Attorney General Merrick Garland would actually exercise discretion he asked them oversight over this and say, this is too close to the election. It looks to partisan to me even though all his nonaction ends up being partisan, hear, he might actually step in and say, i think this is too close. I mean, i think its important to take a step back and realize how big this is. We talk about so many different legal developments. But this could actually decide whether this happens if it doesnt, if trump does win the election, in this case hasnt seen the light of day before then he makes it go away, gone. The jury, the American People never get to hear these charges in this case. You they never hear this one, and they never hear the maralago case, which i agree with shan will be likely to be heard after the election anyway. So you think about that, if if, as we, some of us think that this unlikely with this decision today that were unlikely to have this case tried before the election youre basically looking at a 50, 50 chance that either of these cases well ever go to trial. Its a markable joan. The role of the Supreme Court is going to play regardless of what they decide in the 2024 election, because they dont just have this, theyve also got the colorado ballot case. I mean, they have so much in their hands right. And the colorado ballot case was heard on february 8th, and we still dont have a ruling there. We do know from Oral Arguments and i think we can take this to the bank that this Supreme Court is going to reverse the colorado Supreme Court and say that donald john shouldnt remain on state ballots. Now i had thought we have a ruling by at least monday the day before next monday the day before super tuesday, when colorado voters finished their balloting for the primary and several other states have their primary elections. We still could get it, but we know which way that ones going where are we suspect, but thats but its still an important decision from them. An important decision that says contrary to what the colorado Supreme Court said, donald trump cannot be kept from ballots under this provision of the constitution that bars people who had taken an oath to uphold the constitution and then engaged in an interview correction. A remarkable moment, glad to have all of your perspectives on this tonight. It says we are to Pivotal Moment in the 2024 election of next year on the source, senator mitt romney, hes here to react to what you just heard this decision, what he thinks of that also, the Breaking News we got today, senator Mitch Mcconnell is stepping down as the Senate Republican leader the greatest stage were told about lifetime, where you tbs the virus that causes shingles is sleeping. Did 99 of people over 50. Its lying dormant weeding, and could be at Debate Shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. And it could wake at any time thank you. Are not at risk for shingles its time to wake up because shingles could wake up at you. If youre over 50, talk to your dr. Or pharmacist about shingles prevention in this market, youll find Fisher Investments is different than other money managers. Different how arent we all just looking for the hottest stocks . Nope, we use diversified strategies to position our Clients Portfolios for their longterm goals. 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It stands in stark contrast to one of the last people to win the Republican Partys nomination, who during his 2012 Campaign Said that leaders should be held accountable im joined now by utah republican senator mitt romney, senator romney, great to have you here tonight on this Breaking News that the Supreme Court is going to take up this immunity ruling, but, but not hear about hear the arguments until april. Whats your reaction . For that . Well, apparently they felt that there was an important legal issue to consider. And this has some monument which would apply not only did donald trump, but the future president s. And they they thought they needed to take a deep look at it. I think one question about it is whether or not it means that the trial will be delayed. I wonder if you think that voters deserve to hear this case. See it, go to trial before the election, given the basis of it is about trying to overturn an election. Yeah. I think the process of the law, as they say, grinds fine, but also slow. It takes time thats the nature of our system. Theyre not going to change the procedures of the Supreme Court based upon campaigns and elections. Theyre going to go through this the way they would. Another important case. And then i could have respond to what they think voters want to hear when they want to hear it. Yeah, well see what they decide. Of course, when you think about the Supreme Court, one pivotal figure that you think about in washington is senator Mitch Mcconnell and the role he played in shaping the last three justices who were joined, who joined the court . He announced today that he is stepping down from republican leadership. What did you make of that news . Well, i was surprised he announced it today. I thought he might make a decision and an outset perhaps in november when a new administration came to town or the same one was reelected, one of the other but but his decision to do it today reflected, im sure his personal interests and cares and its hard to speculate exactly why i was surprised that he announced it today because its a long period now of relatively lame duck status. But i think theres perception that Mitch Mcconnell rules with an iron hand that he twists arms and tells people how he wants him to vote. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think he recognizes that there are 49 republicans in our caucus, each of whom thinks that itd be president of the United States. And the last thing they need is a leader whos telling them what to do. And so he listens to us encourages us to follow our own conscience. Now and then hell tell us what hes gonna do. Oftentimes, not until the last minute. So i dont think theres a big change in how we will operate over the coming months. How does it reflect on the institution know that he doesnt he is stepping down from this Leadership Role well, i think theres been very few, if any, leaders that have had more commitment to the institution of the senate. The Mitch Mcconnell, he after all, it took extraordinary heat from President Trump who wanted to get rid of the filibuster and put through his full agenda without any need for democratic votes. And Mitch Mcconnell said no because he wants to protect the institution of the senate and so i think what hes doing now is consistent with that. His commitment to the senate itself i think his timing may have personal implications, potentially political implications will see as time goes on and where i was with a group of republican senators this evening, we were speculating as to why hes doing it now, does it relate to the campaign . So forth but we really dont know and well probably get a better sense of that as time goes on. Well, and the speculation also is whos going to replace him, who is going to be the next person whos going to take that role for Senate Republicans. Do you have a concern that the litmus test for that is going going to be loyalty to donald trump no, i dont think thats how senators will vote. I mean, therell be some who will be some will be interested in what the president thinks and who he might endorse. President , former president. But i think we are we got three leading candidates right now. The johns, if you will, john barrasso, john thune, john cornyn, people jokingly say, im for john, for john. And i think theyre pretty safe and saying that if President Trump were to say, im for this one versus that one, i dont think again, these 49 or 50 republican senators are going to say, oh im going to do what . So what Donald Trump Tells me to do this pretty headstrong group weeds think were pretty good and people like me actually ran for president once we got a bunch of guys who ran for president. But youre different in this sense of how you stand up. And we just saw trumps influence on the Immigration Bill listen at that bipartisan bill with foreign aid that came out. He did have a lot of influence on at least some of those republicans senators. Yes. I think on various issues he will have an influence. I think he has more influence in the house. Than he does in the senate but i think byinlarge senators vote their conscience. They do what they think is the right thing for their constituents, for their reelection for the country and so i dont, i dont think that they salute and take direction either for Mitch Mcconnell or from donald trump one of the most aspects that stood out to me and something about Mitch Mcconnells legacy is, of course, the role that he played when donald trump was impeached and he voted to acquit even though he makes clear that he thought the legal system would take care of him in a deeply reported book about you by mckay coppins, it was reported that during that time after the impeachment, managers had given their presentation that they walked by you at one point . In the connell said they nailed him, referencing donald trump. I wonder what you make of how he handled that and whether how that affects history going forward. Well, i think i think there are number of people, Mitch Mcconnell among them, who believed that the prosecutors view will on the democrat side, were able to prove their case that donald trump had done the things that they alleged. But these individuals felt that that didnt rise to the level that required his removal from office or in this case being barred from office. And of course, there were two Impeachment Trials. So maybe mixing the two as i say this. But Mitch Mcconnell felt, for instance that you shouldnt have a, an Impeachment Trial is someone who is left office. He thinks thats just a bad precedent. And so he felt the legal system would therefore do the work that needed to do for someone whos left office. He thought that if we were going to be impeaching former president s that at some point were going to be impeaching president s that had slaves. Thomas jefferson, lets impeach it. Were going to, were going to open a pandoras box that could be challenging, but i dont i dont i cant speak for precisely what Mitch Mcconnell believed, but i do think there were a number of senators who believed the case was made, but didnt think it rose to a requirement to remove from office or bar permanently from future office. But now trumps team is arguing his legal team that unless youre impeached and convicted, then you cant be prosecuted. I mean, what do you make of his the basis of what the Supreme Court is hearing the president s have this broad immunity well, im not a constitutional lawyer, but you ran for president and i ran for president i went i went to law school, but it by bar exam is elon hixon. Its expired i, just dont think thats a very effective argument in my own view. But this is more as a lay person then as a jurist or a constitutional scholar. But the idea that you have to have a and Impeachment Trial and be convicted and an Impeachment Trial in order to be convicted in a court of law. I dont understand that connection and i dont see it in the constitution dont worry we have a lot more of our interview in that conversation. It was so fascinating with senator mitt romney, the blame that he says he believes his own party will there once in the house if they dont help . Aid ukraine. Also, more thoughts on donald trump and vladmir putin. Thats right after a quick break Eliot Spitzer sir, crusading governor by day, wanted to be present in the United States. Client number nine by nights this guy who was a presale are against Human Sex Trafficking is actually a customer, United States of scandal with jake tapper. New episodes sunday at nine on cnn. Look, we know its going to be a big change, but its the right thing to do for all of us. 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And my own my own view is that i do believe that the majority of our caucus, the other republican senators believes that we should play an active role in the world, and that we should defend freedom in places where its under attack. I think for instance, if if taiwan were attacked, youd see the great majority of the republican senators say we need to help, help taiwan want to give it weapons so it can defend itself i believe that if theres a plane vote just to give weapons to ukraine, the republican senators will support that somewhere unhappy with support for the government of ukraine did want to vote for the ukraine funding and that basis. But i think the majority of our group fields but we are better off in america if we defend the cause of freedom around the world otherwise, bad people terrible authoritarians like Vladimir Putin are going to ultimately attack nato nations. And were gonna be required by treaty to send our own soldiers into harms way or we can walk away from nato and blow up a, an alliance which has helped preserve global peace among, at least, among the major powers for the last 75 or 80 years. I was just in ukraine sitting down with president zelenskyy. They are deeply worried that your colleagues in the house, republicans in the house arent going to send them money hey, more aid that they are going to stand in the way. I mean, what responsibility do you believe republicans will bear for setbacks on the battlefield for ukraine if they dont pass any more aid, well, if, if we dont pass aid for ukraine then i think ukraine has a very difficult time preserving their geographic integrity and a life youre going to have a lot of people who lose their life as russia runs across ukraine. And that will make it very clear to people around the world that you really cant trust americas word because we made a commitment in 1994 to respect the sovereignty of ukraine to help defend the people of ukraine if they were attacked. And thats whats happening. And if we walk away from that, they wont trust our word europe will say, hey the United States is not with us. Were not going to be with them if theres something they want to do in the pacific, for instance, let them deal with china, let america deal with china and the issues there. So were strong globally in part because of our friends we have alliances, we always talk about how the russians and the chinese dont have the kinds of friends we have well we have friends in part because we stand together. And if we dont stand with our friends, we will lose strength and that will ultimately come to hurt us. So you disagree with your colleague, senator jd vance, who is making the argument that 60 billion more dollars wont fundamentally change ukraines stance on the battlefield. That, that is an interesting point. It just happens to be as accurate as it is irrelevant. All right, it may not change their stance on the battlefield. What it does do is communicate to the entire world that we honor our commitments. And we stand with our friends and we will, we will help Freedom Fighters around the world who are our friends and allies . And thats a message which is important to the people in taiwan. Do that people in japan, to the people in india, to the people in europe. All of these people are watching to see, can you count on america or as america, so isolation is, it doesnt care what happens to the rest of us if thats the case, by the way, if we seed leadership, if were no longer the leader of the free world, if were no longer the Arsenal Of Democracy than the world is good, look for different leaders and i know at least one player thats happy to step into that role. And thats china. And a world where xi jinping is the leader of the world, is a very dangerous world and not good for america, not good for our businesses, for economy, but certainly not good for our freedom. Its also Pretty Amazing to hear you just put it in this simple perspective that if House Republicans block more money to ukraine, lives will be lost, and ukraine as a result of that, theres no question about that. Lastly, we lost there and Vladimir Putin will not stop. He may take some time to rebuild his military because its been decimated by the illconsidered attack. Ukraine but he will ultimately go after other nations in the baltics, latvia, lithuania potentially polar, those are possibilities. Georgia he will continue. He has indicated he wants to rebuild the russian empire, if you will. And those are nato nations we are obligated under treaty to come to their defense. We are. It would be pound excuse me, pennywise and Pound Foolish to say, were not going to help ukraine with weapons when the next step is a place where under treaty we would be obligated to help with not just weapons, but and funds, but blood. And we need to make sure that the world knows we will stand with ukraine. I cant guarantee as, as jd vance indicates, that this is going to mean that ukraine is successful on the battlefield. But i can guarantee it shows a world that will stand by our friends. Do you agree with president zelenskyys analysis that trump doesnt really understand putin because hes never fought him i dont know that. I can enter into the mind of donald trump and understand his perspectives. I think he shows more respect for Vladimir Putin, that Vladimir Putin deserves. Donald trump has said some strange things like, well, kate putin has killed some people, but our president is killed people too. Its like yeah, but our president so killed their political opponents and members of the media. All right, our president is beit. Take us toward to protect our freedom and our interests as we understand them thats very different than murdering political opponents and murdering members of the media and incarcerating journalists these are the things Vladimir Putin does and attacking a sovereign nation, ukraine without provocation and Killing Tens Of Thousands of people, kidnapping children. This is a very bad guy based upon our values and i think the values that are shared by people throughout the world and i think its fine for president and a former president to talk to leaders of other nations but big clearedeyed, Vladimir Putin is a very bad person. Nikki haley, who is challenging donald trump for the republican nomination, is in your home state today campaigning. Shes gotten a lot of support from other Top Republicans in your stay, but her argument in what she told your constituents today is that if trumps the republican nominee, your party is going to lose the election. Do you agree with that yeah, i dont necessarily agree with that. Thats a Good Campaign line. Im sure, but i think i could win. Oh, sure. I think you can win i mean, today its kind of a toss up. But if the election were actually held, the de i think hed probably win i, cant tell whats going to happen over the next nine months or so. But what does it mean if he does when well, a dramatic change in our Foreign Policy, i think that people around the world say, okay, america is no longer the leader of the free world. And the Arsenal Of Democracy its not the shining city on a hill is now an isolated island and theres some things by the way, donald trump does better than joe biden a lot. Joe biden made extraordinary mistakes on the immigration front. Its embarrassing how bad hes been. No, i know you care deeply about the border. And so hes made it a term and donald trump did a lot of smart things when he was president on the Foreign Policy front, it would be a dramatic departure from our posture over the last 75 or 80 years that by the way, has not only kept us safe and free from attack, but its also allowed us to build an extraordinarily Strong Economy and have a income per person in america about a third higher than people in europe. But can i just ask, i think that those comments there may raise some questions for people watching at home. Would you vote for donald trump over joe biden . No. No, no, absolutely not. For me there too. The factors are decided who i want to have as the leader of my country, and the person who is the example of the president for my kids, my grandkids, one is their position and policies and on Foreign Policy im not aligned with donald trump, at least as i understand his policy and domestic policy. Yeah. Aligned with many of his domestic policies. But theres another dimension besides policy what america is as a nation, what is allowed us to be the most powerful nation on earth . And the leader of the earth is the character of the people who have been our leaders past president s. But also mothers, fathers, church leaders, University President s, and so forth. Having a president who is so defaulted of character would have an enormous impact on the character of america. And for me thats the primary consideration. Senator mitt romney. Thank you for coming on the source tonight. Thanks. Kaitlan it fascinating interview with him up next well talk more about the historic arguments that are set to happen at the us Supreme Court. Trumps former Impeachment Lawyers hear why he says he does believe trump is entitled to immunity. And whether or not the justices will bite out frank sinatra, had connections with the mafia and all these nightclubs were owned by the mob. You didnt want to make those guys that he was to it vegas, The Story Of Sensitive Sunday at ten on cnn whats your sap thats why vision works, makes it simple to scheduling an eye exam that works for you, even if you have a big trip to plan around meghan, see you right now. Thats convenient. Vision works. See the difference. Lets loves the scent of gains so much she wished there was a way to make it last longer. Say hello to your fairy godmother, alice and longlasting gain scent beads. 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And what they decide, no matter what it is, will have profound implications for the 2020 four election, even the future of the presidency. Also, how long it takes them to decide here tonight, david schoen, trumps former attorney, who is there representing him during the second Impeachment Trial in which trump was charged with inciting an insurrection. He was convicted or he was impeached, but not convicted in the senate, as we talked out with senator romney, david, i just wonder if youre in the trial legal team tonight and you hear this from the Supreme Court that they are going to take this up and theyre not going to do it until at least here at until april 22. Are they happy about this . Im sure they are thats still a pretty quick schedule, you know. All things being considered. But yeah. I mean, i think the Supreme Court, nobody can read their mind, but i think did they felt it is of monumentally important case, and its the criminal side of the nixon versus gerald case. And so i think they fell it fell to as appropriate, not arrogant for them to weigh in on and decided once and for all. So you disagree with the argument that we heard from the former deputy fbi director, Andrew Mccabe earlier saying that in essence, everyone believes theyre just going to affirm what the Appeals Court found, but they want their name to be on it. That could be, but i dont think that would be the reason i think that one of the criteria primary criteria for the Supreme Court to hear a case besides conflict among circuits is a case of monumental constitutional importance. I think this is that kind of Landmark Case i think that if they resolve it, they ought to resolve it on relatively narrow grounds. I think Something Like a model like nixon Versus Fitzgerald would well serve the court in the criminal context. Also, we have some of the same interests. The court there was concerned about the intrusions on the function and the authority of the executive hed have branch. And so if something isnt official act then that sort of stops the process. And so we dont put people at parallel, make decisions in war time. Lets say, for certain bombings that afterwards people look at and say, gee, you shouldnt have done that, that looked like a war crime. I dont think we want policy to be driven by a concern about being prosecuted for something that in hindsight, looks the legal potentially, but thats not what hes being prosecuted here for, not a drone strike or a decision to go to war. I mean, hes being prosecuted for his attempts to overturn the election i mean, thats a way to characterize it, which many people have, i would say that another way to care how you characterize it had genuine concerns about Election Integrity that he demanded an investigation into it, that nobody really knows what the Vice President s role is under the electoral count act as the leading Election Law Expert and the country probably has said from ohio state, nobody knows what the parameters really of the authority are. And therefore, he demanded that there he believes agree with that he may well. But but i think that the evidence that ive seen at least is that President Trump genuinely believed, based on information he was provided, that there were concerns about it. And so all of this came up in the Impeachment Trial. Also. I think that it was quintessential official act. And thats to me. Yeah. But the argument that a lot of the senators made, which was noted by this Appeals Court, is that they believedlie this isnt something for us to take up. This is something for a court to take up. So thats why they were skeptical of the argument. With it. Trumps attorney was making, which is that, you know, you can only be prosecuted if youve been impeached and then convicted. But let me ask you about the timing of this because a lot of this has to do with how long trump was in office, how long he is protected. And in his view, hes permanently protected. But what the Appeals Court was arguing is that hes now citizen then trump, and that any immunity he did have no longer applies to him. Yeah, that would be a very dangerous position to take. And i think the court went that far. I dont think they had to. I think that the timeframe thats relevant is when the person was president. We dont then say, well, you lose the immunity afterwards. Listen, thats part of the question. The Supreme Court consider. They consider the single a question theyre considering is whether and to what extent a former president is immune from criminal liability for alleged acts, official acts. So youre right, thats part of the question. Can i wonder your perspective because lets say that the Supreme Court comes out and makes their decision on this june 1. And then judge chutkan gets the case moving, that they do actually scheduled this trial before the election. But if it is scheduled, then for say, september and trumps team is arguing, well, its too close to the election thats Election Interference. I mean, can they in good faith make that argument given theyre the ones who sought this delay in the first place. Well, i dont think they saw delay in this case. That is by taking up the immunity. Definitely did. Theyll openly admit that they wanted to be delayed. No question. They have said that. I just mean by taking the appeal in the immunity issue, i dont think that this was foisted on them. They didnt ask for the prosecution in the first place, but listen, i happen to love judge chutkan in many ways. I wanted to big case with her this week. I dont think that shes done anything wrong in that regard, but i think that this is an issue that has to play out. These are all important constitutional issues. And i think thats more important than rushing forward. I dont think there should be a criminal trial in this case. I dont think criminal charges on the point though. The question was about can they good faith to make can argument about when its scheduled if they sought to delay it yes. I think they can because if the delay in this case is because the system is working and the court is fleshing out these issues, then i think they can still make the argument. First of all, im not sure they would have enough preparation time. Remember, we still have under review in the Supreme Court the Obstruction Statute that has to be played out and they have to be able to prepare their defense based on what the parameters of that statute is going to be. So i think i think they can make the argument still in good faith david schoen, thanks for joining us. Thank you. Both sides of this argument have referred to nixons case that went before the high court to bolster their arguments don john dean, president nixons White House Council will join us with his perspective dianne not guilty. I am resigning Administration Officials destroyed my cover. Politics. Were great power meets questionable Decision Making that switch. Back room deal, cia sequence of beyers, bribery, corruption prostitution. As someone who lives for politics when a major scandal unfolds, i have to know theres so much more to the story in knighted states of scandal with jake tapper sunday, a nine on cnn i am an unholy terror. But lately its just a ruse. 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We now know those arguments are scheduled to happen the week of april 22, the question is, when is there a decision joining me now is someone who knows a lot about the Supreme Court taking up Landmark Cases about president ial power. Former white House Counsel for president richard nixon, john dean, and john, its great to have you here because it is not an overstatement to say that whatever they decide and how long they take to decide it could be a Pivotal Moment. Oh man, in this election and how it plays out very much so youre quite right on that. And the gray area of the timing is whats going to create a lot of drama. We do know the briefing schedule, but how quickly will they move after the arguments, historic . We we know the court can move quickly when it wants to, as it did in bush v. Gore move with lightning speed within days and had resolved the issue actually in favor of the majority of the court, which were republicans at the time. But it also in nixon us versus nixon, it took about, it took about just under three weeks 16 days as i recall to get the opinion of the court that nixon had to turn over his secretly recorded conversations. So the court is used to these kinds of big deliberations and it can move with speed when it wants to. Also then compare that to this timing. If someones at home watching and confused on the fact that what you just said there, bush v. Gore happening being resolved in a matter of days, usb nixon, you said it took about two weeks after Oral Arguments before we got that and the fact that this took weeks to just hear when the schedule is going to be and now its happening two months from now we dont know until decades after the fact that what happens inside the court and sometimes not even then with watergate, and that court, then the nixon court matt era, we know a lot because Scott Armstrong and bob woodward got a hold of a slew of clerks and did a book called the brother and then they went right inside the decisionmaking process. A lot of politics involved a lot of watching the hearings, involved inside the court. They are very aware. They keep kenya antenna as to whats going on politically. So we know theyre sophisticated and following public reaction, if you will, this is a court today that has got a lot of bad well against it as a result of overturning roe, it is court that doesnt seem to care about. Its standing with the public so thats why i dont know how its going to play out. Kaitlan, i really dont i dont have a good feel for it. I know theres a need to address immunity, but it needs to be done quickly and not to be protracted. Yeah. Joan biskupic was reporting that clearly there is tension behind the scenes in the Supreme Court and how to thats what she read into how long it took to actually hear that they were going to take this up. But i wonder if you also think that there are tea leaves to read, if you will. And the question that the Supreme Court has decided to answer here, because essentially plea its to what extent thats the quote about the immunity for former president s. And do you believe that means that they want to see parameters put in place . Could we see a limit on Executive Power as a result of what trump is trying to do here they framed the question broader and a little differently. Nicest thought they would. In the onepage order, but it also i immediately when when 3d, i thought, well, you know were all forgetting that there are two other cases that immunity is at play that involve donald trump and one is the florida case. He has filed a brief in florida seeking immunity there, and he has said his lawyers have said they plan to do so in georgia as well. The only place hes waived it is in new york with the bragg case, the manhattan da case, the the Election Interference potential on his part. So immunity is a real issue in much broader than the january 6 case, if you will . I think what a lot of people listen to you, john, i mean, they think of just the landmark kind of implications in these decisions. When you look at this, how pivotal do you think this will be in us history . You know, its hard to tell when theyre going to do a landmark decision. They could do a very quick run through and really just embrace the opinion of The Dc Circuit, which is a very sophisticated look at it based on the facts. Yell, i think they could do that really troubles me given the order theyve issued is they could actually send it back to a lower court to get more facts. Now, that would really make it protracted, and that would mean theres not a prayer would take place and be decided before the election. So the order there under has the markings of a potential landmark decision. No question. The fact that they took it up it is a court, however, that likes the last word. So i think we all going to have to sit tight and see what happens. Yeah oh, and that last word from you, john dean. I mean, well just see what the timing of course here at what that means for everything. Thank you. John dean really appreciate to have your perspective here tonight. And thank you all so much for joining us on this incredibly busy night news night with Abby Phillips starts right now