Transcripts For CNNW The 20240701

from jack smith. the high court says it will fast track consideration of trump's claim that he's immune from prosecution in his election case. plus rudy giuliani in court today. the jury is set to decide how much he'll pay for defamatory lies that threaten the lies of two election workers, lies he is still pushing outside the courtroom. also the pregnant woman at the center of a flash point in america right now, has just left her home state to get an abortion, as the texas supreme court has just ruled against her. we'll have the latest. i'm kaitlan collins, and this is "the source." tonight, we have exclusive reporting in the trump classified documents case. a phone call that apparently is of interest to special counsel jack smith from the former president to a former longtime employee in mar-a-lago, who was there for key conversations surrounding that case. more on that important reporting in a moment. but also we have major news about the nation's highest court on jack smith's second case against donald trump, which the special counsel is warning could be delayed indefinitely if the justices don't intervene. he's asking them to move and to do so quickly. now, the supreme court has agreed to at least put its consideration of whether or not to hear that case on a fast track. at the heart of this is trump's argument that he's immune from prosecution. by doing this, jack smith is essentially leapfrogging passing appeals court on the matter, where it was likely headed next. likely trying to beat trump at his game that we know his lawyers are at least pursuing here of delaying his legal troubles. jack smith is arguing that, quote, nothing could be more vital to our democracy than holding a former president accountable. the supreme court responded just hours after he made that filing and gave trump's team a deadline of nine days from now. trump's claim has been that presidents are exempt from being prosecuted in federal court for crimes that were committed potentially while they were in office. he has now until december 20th to respond to this expedited ask by jack smith. he responded to jack smith's filing unsurprisingly by criticizing him. he does so on a near daily basis, saying he is, quote, attempting to bypass the appellate process. here's what his legal team has argued previously about the case. >> this is -- this is going to be the most important civil rights constitutional case in decades. everything that president trump did was while he was in office as a president. he is now immune from prosecution for acts that he takes in connection with those policies. >> that is john lauro, trump's attorney. but now jack smith is asking the high court to use an unusual procedure here. but it does have historical precedent because it's the same maneuver that was used with president nix lg regarding his refusal to turn over tape recordings and other documents. justices rejected the claims of immunity and moved quickly so one of the watergate cases could keep moving. the question of whether or not that applies tonight is a big one. i'm joined by cypress vance jr., and temidayo aga guo williams. thank you both for being here. cy vance, let me start with you. it's almost bigger than him in the sense that if they agree to take this up, the precedent this could set. >> it is obviously a very important step jack smith has taken. i think he has made the right call in terms of trying to expedite this, given the calendar that the -- the political calendar and the court calendar. and tim and i were talking. it's fascinating just what the court will do. but i think he's done the right thing by expediting it. i don't think the issues that jack smith presents are particularly novel. we know from nixon that a president can be investigated while in office. we know from the case i was involved with, trump v. vance, that a president can be investigated for conduct prior to when he was in office. i don't think donald trump says he can go to fifth avenue and shoot someone while he's president and be immune from office. that prosecution might be delayed while he was president or having committed another crime, but i don't think the president's arguments, in my view, really can surmount the precedent that has already been set in the supreme court about the constitutional protections of a president. >> yeah, and clearly what the trump legal team has been trying to do here is, kind of, drag this out. they're going to an appeals court here. jack smith is basically trying to go over that and say eventually this is going to go to the supreme court. i might as well go to them now. what do you make of the fact that they went and the supreme court justices responded quickly not necessarily what they're going to do with the case but at least fast track what they will do for the case. >> i think it's a positive sign for jack smith. i think it shows they're taking it seriously, that they're going to act swiftly. i think it makes it more likely we're going to get to a quick resolution of this case. it's clear the former president wants to have it both ways. kaitlan, as you know, before judge chutkan, he was asking her to basically stay all deadlines as they were going up to the circuit, trying to slow things down there, because he says he needed a higher court to rule because he would be harmed if the case went forward and he was ultimately found to have immunity. jack smith is basically calling his bluff. he's saying, if you think you have immunity, let's go to the ultimate decider now. it's bold but i think it's what's required. if you have a delay here, i think it's president trump would never see a day in the courtroom if he wins the presidency. >> how do you think the courtesies this. you have been on the other side of the trump delay tactic. they don't shy away from it. they openly acknowledge this is a tactic of theirs, to delay this past the election. how do you think the supreme court looks at this? >> you know, in our own experience in litigating to the supreme court in trying to obtain trump's tax returns, first of all, the -- every court at every level treated it seriously. the district court, appellate court, second circuit, and the supreme court in terms of moving the case in its calendar. i think they will treat this as a serious issue. i don't know how they come out, but i do think that they will -- they understand the importance and the timing of smith's request. and i think they will respect that is my guess. but i -- but how they rule on it -- in my view, if they're looking at supreme court precedent, i think i know how they would rule on it. i really don't know what they're going to do. >> that's a good question. do you think they would grant it? >> well, i think that they would grant the expedited hearing. and i think on the merits -- >> they'd reject it. >> they'd reject -- >> that he's immune. >> yeah, they'd reject immunity. >> there's a question tonight about the make-up of who's going to be hearing this. there's two democratic senators saying -- one saying he should consider recusing and one he should flatout recuse because his wife, ginni thomas's efforts to overturn the election, to push to overturn it. is that something that is likely here do you think? >> i think it's unlikely that justice thomas will recuse himself. i think the calls for that consideration are very appropriate. you know, the committee had messages between ginni thomas and the joint chief of staff mark meadows about the issues president trump is charged with. and she was expressing her support for overturning the election results to mark meadows, as he was playing train conductor for all kind of folks trying to get messages to the white house. i think if you imagine this same scenario and you found out, for example, that judge chutkan's husband was involved with these issues, i can guarantee you the former president would be calling for her to recuse herself. so, i think here, when you find the facts, as justice here, his wife, having access to the white house -- she doesn't have access, in my opinion, because she was somehow purely a conservative leader. it's because of who she's married to, which is a supreme court justice. i think it does undermine the court's independence to have justice thomas weighing in when his wife was involved in the same orbit of criminal conduct. >> i have a strong feeling he's not going to recuse himself. we know part of trump's data that is something -- jack smith, we don't know how much. but he does have part of it. he's planning to use it in this case. we're also learning something interesting about trump's use of the phone, cyrus. we're reporting three months after that search of the mar-a-lago, after the documents case, the florida case, that trump took the unusual step of calling a longtime employee who had quit. essentially was calling him repeatly, that there are interactions talking about offers of legal representation, repeated reminders he could come back to work for trump. why is that something that jack smith is interested in? >> well, assuming it's admissible it's to prove that trump, under, i think, the theory was trying to circle the wagons around all the witnesses who had relevant information and those that he had a personal connection with would be within that circle of wagons. i don't know the facts. but if i were -- but based as you described it, that's what i think jack smith would be doing, was that in response to subpoenas, in response to investigation, the former president was reaching out in a way that, in one sense, might seem appropriate. but it's for the jury to decide what was his intent when he did that. >> yeah. it wasn't mentioned in the filings, but we'll see if it pops up anywhere else. cyrus vance jr., temidayo, thank you as always. joining me now, anthony scaramucci, who had a brief stint as a communications director for the white house. maybe better known as the much. i mean just curious what you think is, kind of, going through donald trump's head right now, as jack smith is here surprising everyone by going past the appeals court, going straight to the supreme court, and basically trying to cut off trump's known strategy of delaying his legal troubles? >> i think it's a brilliant move by jack. but if you really want to get inside the president's mind, he's very, very wary. you've got 91 counts, four big indictments. it feels like he is the al capone of our current political system, meaning people think he's untouchable, just like they did with al capone or somebody like john gotti, but they actually are not untouchable. so, he's very, very worried. i do know that he thinks because he appointed six of those -- excuse me, three of those justices but he has six that are conservatives, i do think that he thinks he's got a good shot there. he thinks that that court is politicized and will tip to his favor. and obviously jack smith doesn't think that. i certainly don't think that. and i think it's a great strategy, kaitlan. we'll have to see what happens. but i think the president is very worried. >> whether or not it works. when you say, he's very worried, it's not out there to say that what he is staring down right now potentially is a second term as president or, if he does end up going to trial, as is scheduled right now for at least one of these cases, this one at the heart of this, in march, that he could be potentially facing a prison sentence if they are successful in a conviction. i mean, is that all he's thinking about at this point do you think? >> i do. and i also think that mark meadows -- i mean, we're leaving that out of the equation. but this is not -- you know, he's not able to say on certain things that this is a witch hunt by democratic leadership or democratic district attorneys or attorneys general and so forth. he's not able to say that. you have one of the key witnesses ran the freedom caucus and was his last chief of staff. so, that's right inside the wheelhouse. so, that's another reason why he's worried about these people that have access to his phone or he's talked to on the phone. kaitlan, you covered him for a long time, and you had sources inside the white house that were always concerned about the president's morality and his judgment relating to what was legal and what wasn't legal. and i think jack has evidence that proves a lot of illegality on the part of the president. and so, the question i was going to -- would love to ask cyrus or others is, are they able to submit proof of what the president did to the supreme court, or is this a procedural case in front of the court in terms of what's going on with immunity while you're president? and so i think that's at issue. i think if jack comes at this thing with five or six smoking guns, i'm just wondering what justice w justice who wants there to be impartiality and who wants to preserve the american democracy, how they would view those facts. >> would you like to weigh in? i'm curious about your thought on it as well. >> sure. i think the supreme court today is a very different court than the one we appeared before several years ago. it is, as mr. scaramucci said, three now trump appointees. i like to believe, even though i think the supreme court has been perceived as perhaps the most political court in the country rather than the least, i like to believe that the justices will call it as they see it under the law. and my own personal view is that i think the issues of presidential immunity in this case are not that unclear. and i think if they follow the law that's been -- that started with nixon, went through clinton, went through trump's last tremendous vails to the supreme court, they'll conclude that, as some had said before, no one is against the law. no president stands immune from investigation or prosecutions once he or she is no longer in office. when you're in office, it's a different -- perhaps different kettle of fish because you have a country that the citizenry has elected you to lead. when you leave that office, you lose those immunities. >> we will see what they decide. thank you very much for that. good questions, scaramucci. thank you very much for joining us as well. ahead, there are major developments in the case we have been following here closely of a pregnant woman in texas. she sued to have an emergency abortion. the texas supreme court has just weighed in, ruling against her. her desperate decision now to leave the state because of her health. also the old russian opposition leader, alexei navalny missing, according to his attorneys. more on that mystery of his wrashts coming up. there's been a dramatic turn for the texas woman who was at the center of a legal fight to end her high risk pregnancy. kate cox's doctors say that her unborn child has a fatal genetic condition and will not survive and that her own health is also at risk. she's been in and out of the emergency room, we are told by her attorneys, and now they say she has left the state of texas to have the emergency abortion procedure elsewhere. that came just hours before we learned that the texas supreme court tonight ruled against her, reversing a judge's ruling last week that gave her permission to seek an abortion, to have an exception there. joining me nont is anna navarro. you know her well as part of the cnn family, but she has a personal experience to share about this, about what women just like kate cox are going through, and she joins us now. i'm so glad you're here, especially given what we've just heard from the texas supreme court in this filing. i want to read part of it. they said in this that no one disputes that her pregnancy has been extremely complicated. they say, any parents would be devastated to learn about their unborn child's tricemy 18 diagnosis. but even serious ones do not pose the heightened risk to the mother that the exception encompasses. what do you make of that? >> you know, i have so many feelings right now. i am heart broken for this mother. i am infuriated. and i am indignant as a woman at the idea that politicians in austin texas and state capitals and all sorts of states and judges who are not doctors are questioning what the medical advice to this woman is. looks, kaitlan, i had the news given to me that i had an ectopic pregnancy. that means the fetus is not viable and if you don't terminate the pregnancy, you could die in the process. i know what it's like to get that heart wrenching news. her news is much worse. she's 21 weeks pregnant. she's fighting for her life. she's fighting for her fertility. making her give -- taking away her choice, taking away her right, taking away her ability to get health care in her own state -- i've heard so many people say online cavalierly, casually, oh, why didn't she go to another state? do you know what it's like to have to terminate a wanted pregnancy and not be able to go and lay down in your own bed, not be able to cry into your own pillow, not be able to lean on your friends and your family and your village where you live, not be able to go to see your doctors, to have to go out of state, stay in a hotel, incur that cost, incur those extra days of missing work? do people understand what that takes, having to leave your village in order to have to go beg for your life and take care of oyour own health somewhere else? that is cruel. that is inhumane. that is certainly not american, and it's certainly not god's will. shame on those politicians in texas telling this woman what she can or cannot do. and i want to remind america that it's not just texas. it's also debra thor berg in florida, the woman who had a fetus who are had a baby that had no kidneys and who was told that child was certainly going to die. and she couldn't get an abortion in florida and had to hold that baby in her arms for 90 minutes, as that baby gasped for air and died inner her arms. and it's 14 other states that have laws like this that are incredibly restricted. for people who think, maybe this is just texas or maybe this is just florida, no. every woman in america should be indignant at the idea that politicians are telling us and telling doctors what to do. criminalizing doctors -- criminalizing doctors, criminalizing women. where do we live? it's horrendous. >> and i just want to say, first off, thank you for sharing that because i know that there are a lot of other women probably watching right now who have had similar experiences. so, just -- you saying that out loud i think is really powerful. and when you talk about what a woman goes through who has to have this procedure, what it means in the aftermath of that, i also thought about with kate cox, you know, she left the state of texas today to get this procedure. there are a lot of women who can't afford to leave their home states to go and have -- i think about my home state of alabama, there are a lot of women who can't afford to go out of state to somewhere that they can get this procedure. >> that's right. the woman i mentioned in florida, debra, could not afford to go out of state. it's so -- do people understand the amount of people who don't have the savings to be able to one day or the other -- it requires looking for a doctor out of state. it requires paying for travel. it might require paying for child care. it requires -- in your home state. it requires staying in a hotel, stay something where as you recover. you know, this is not like getting your nails done. these are procedures that require days off and recovery. and you're doing it, what, in hay hotel in a different state that you have to -- and some of these states -- in places like florida, in places like texas, in the southeast coast, you have to drive thousands of miles to get to a state where you might be able to get this done. it just -- it is cruel. it is callous to think, oh, she can go to another state. listen, we may not have seen the end of this, right? because in texas, any yahoo can press charges against this woman. any yahoo can bring suits against this woman and criminalize this woman or criminalize anybody who may have helped her in doing this. it is absurd. it is -- i feel like i am reading a chapter of "the handmaid's tale." i cannot believe this is the united states of america in 2023. and i hope the women who are feeling like i do today do not forget this and carry this indignation and this anger and this infuriation to the ballot and to the voting booth. because those people -- mostly men in state capitols -- who are telling us what we can and cannot do deserve to be voted out. >> anna navarro, again, thank you for sharing that personal story with us and with everybody out there. really appreciate it. thank you for coming on tonight. up next, ukrainian president zelenskyy has just returned to washington. he has key meetings on a schedule tomorrow with president biden and lawmakers. he's hoping to rescue. but is currently a stalled aid package. republican senators, including my next guest, will be critical to a pototential oututcome. 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(♪♪) (♪♪) the new festive family meal. starting at $24. now celebrating at el pollo loco. what you're seeing here is what many ukrainians live in fear of, a russian missile strike destroying this home not on a remote battlefield. this is in the heart of ukraine, in the capital of kyiv, what you're seeing here. in the east, ukrainian troops have been pushing the russians back with improvised drones. but their weapons are dwindling, as negotiations in washington over more funding is stalled amid republican demands for immigration changes to be included. >> translator: i think it will be very difficult without american help, he says. our supplies are also ending, so we need theirs. >> that's a ukrainian soldier you're hearing from there, as ukrainian president zelenskyy is bringing that same appeal to the white house and to capitol hill tomorrow. he says that putin is seeing his, quote, dreams come true, as delays for more aid are continuing in congress tonight. i'm joined now by raubepublican senator ron johnson of wisconsin. thanks for joining on such an important issue. obviously president zelenskyy is coming before the entire senate tomorrow morning. is there anything you could hear from the ukrainian president, that he could say, that could change your mind on getting a ukraine aid bill passed before the end of the year? >> well, kaitlan, first of all, i'm highly sympathetic with the courageous people of ukraine who have been invaded by the war criminal, putin. there's absolutely no doubt about that. at the same time, i'm highly sympathetic to all the families who have lost loved ones to fentanyl overdoses. i'm highly symp thet toik the young people who are sex trafficked because of our open borders. president biden and the open border policy is a clear and present danger to america. about 6 million migrants during his administration entered this nation. either they've been encountered, processed, and dispersed, or about 1.7 million have been detected as get aways. when you have hamas calling for days of rage and the fbi director saying that all the flashing lights, all the danger signals are flashing right now, it's something we need to be concerned about. unfortunately, this is about the only leverage republicans have to force this administration to secure the border. and i think we've got to take that opportunity because this is our top -- our top -- national security and homeland security priority is to secure that border. >> i understand this is a big push from senate republicans. they want immigration changes tied to a part of this. i want to talk about your views on the border, what you think needs to happen. on this issue specifically, do you believe that ukraine aid, another round of funding will get passed this year, which the white house says it urgently needs to happen, not be punted to 2024? >> it's hard to say. we have to secure our border. not just getting minor immigration changes. we actually have to secure the border. it's a national security imperative priority for america n. terms of what happens in ukraine, you know, unfortunately -- unfortunately, we're into the 22nd month of now what is just a bloody stalemate. it's not a fair fight. ukraine cannot really do what would be necessary to really defeat russia. so, the only way this war ends is through a negotiated settlement. every day that goes by, more ukrainians die, more russian conscripts die. i take no pleasure in that. more of ukraine is destroyed. i think the strategy on the part of the administration and ukraine should be trying to, you know, use whatever aid they get to try and bring putin to a negotiated settlement. >> but if you don't give them any aid, what does that look like? a negotiated settlement? what do you think they should see? how do they decide what to give up to russia? >> well, again, it's very difficult to say exactly what they need. we've heard different things. for one thing, we've heard an adviser to president zelenskyy say they're stealing like there's no tomorrow. we heard that ukraine's pretty good funding through the winter and all of a sudden it's the end of december. unfortunate you cannot trust this administration to tell the truth. i'd like to get the truth out of them. don't know it's really going to be forthcoming. but again, the top priority of our nation is to secure our border, not sending tax dollars over to ukraine, as sympathetic as i am with ukrainian people. >> those questions you have about the policy, wasn't there a briefing on capitol hill last week where administration officials were there talking about why they needed more aid for this funding? did you ask them those questions then? >> they were asked. they don't answer the questions. again, one senator, who'd been briefed said ukraine is going to be fine through the winter. asked the question, why now is it at the end of the december, you don't get a straight answer out of them. you simply can't trust this administration to tell you the truth. >> but did you ask those questions? >> i asked what is the end game here. i asked, you know, when i was at president zelenskyy's inauguration, when i met with him two months later, back then president zelenskyy wanted a peace agreement with putin. this is when putin annexed crimea and friendly control of ukraine. he wanted to do a peace deal. i don't know what changed from then to now. i know the impeachment was -- >> well, he evaded, sir. you could say russia -- they invaded. >> he invaded because of the weakness of this administration. it's a tragedy what's happened because of president biden weakness. >> you said russia did invade, we watched it, of course. that invasion is still going on. you talk about your concern for the ukrainians and what happens there. i understand you don't like what you're hearing from the white house, but is the answer to that stopping all funding from -- to ukraine from u.s.? they're celebrating it, what happened in the senate last week, on russian state tv and president putin himself? >> i've said repeatedly i would not only vote for but i would promote funding for ukraine if it is made contingent on actually securing the border, by establishing monthly metrics the administration would have to meet. i would vote for that. i would promote it. but this administration must secure the border before we send additional funding to ukraine. it's an easy proposition. we would be doing the administration enormous political favor if we force them to secure the border. that would take one of the biggest problems president biden has in terms of re-election off the table. we would force them to do that, we would be doing them a huge favor. i don't know why he doesn't understand that. >> what you are asking for is basically you want aid to ukraine conditioned on how many people are crossing the u.s. border. that's a big question. i want to ask you about this. it's your home state. ten republicans who signed paperwork falsely claiming trump won there in the 2020 election have now agreed to withdraw that paperwork, acknowledge joe biden did win the election, and also agree to not serve as an elector in the 2024 election or in any election where trump is on the ballot. but there is one person who still serves, robert spin dell, on a state agency, that is responsible for administering elections and certifying results. do you think he should resign from that given the role he played in the fake elector scheme? >> no. again, there was an active court case. there are all kinds of irregularities in wisconsin in the 2020 election. in order to make sure the case just wasn't determined to be moot, they had to have an ultimate slate of electors, just like democrats have done repeatedly in all kinds of different states. there is nothing untorrid about what they did, nothing illegal about what they did. they are just an alternate slate of electors. >> they were going to court. they had $2.4 million on the line in damages if they lost this case in trial. >> i know. >> are you saying they're wrong. >> i know democrats have harassed these poor individuals. it's unfortunate. it's a travesty. that's what democrats do. they view politics as a blood sport. they did nothing different than many others have done in other states. >> they certainly did. there were multiple slates of fake electors. they're acknowledging they were playing a role in trying to improperly overturn the election. that's what they said. >> they got themselves out of a nuisance lawsuit. they agreed to get -- to settle a nuisance lawsuit that never should have been brought. >> so, you think it's fine that someone -- >> it's a travesty of justice. >> you think it's fine that someone who tried to overturn a legitimate election is still on a board that certifies -- >> democrats have done the same thing -- >> which one? in wisconsin there's been fake slates of electors? >> no, it's happening in different states. >> which ones, sir? >> i'm not prepared to give you exact states but it's happened repeatedly. just go check the books. >> which books? >> ieabeen ultimate slates of electors by democrat electors in our history. again, you didn't -- this wasn't what this interview was going to be about. i'll comment -- i'll provide you the information. >> okay. i look forward to your office sending that information. we'll publish it if it's accurate. >> we'll do that. >> senator ron johnson, a busy day ahead on capitol hill. thank you for your time tonight. >> have a merry christmas. meanwhile, in russia, putin's nemesis and opposition leader alexei navalny apparently has disappeared from prison. the white house says it is deeply concerned about this development. what his daughter is now saying tonight. (♪♪) (♪♪) (♪♪) get exclusive offers on select new volvo models. contact your volvo retailer to learn more. tonight, russia's most prominent opposition leader and one of vladimir putin's fiercest critics, his arch nemesis really, alexei navalny appears to be missing. putin finds him to be such a threat that you'll recall russian agents tried to kill him by poisoning his underwear with a lethal nerve agent. despite that attack on his life, he returned to moscow. navalny was convicted of bogus charges and sent to a harsh penal colony. his daughter spoke to anderson cooper about his whereabouts tonight. >> there have been many instances where they have transferred him or just didn't want him to come out because whenever my dad has a court hearing, he uses that to speak up against the war or tell people to question the regime. and putin has actually just announced that he is going to be running for re-election in the coming presidential elections. and they don't want my father to speak up against that. >> here with me tonight is the director of the cnn films oscar-winning documentary "navalny," daniel moore. i know you've been speaking with navalny's daughter who we just saw there. his other family members who are deeply concerned about him tonight. what have you heard from them? >> well, kaitlan, in addition to what the rest of the world knows that navalny has functionally been disappeared by the russian government. we don't know where he is. and that is so very unsettling in lieu of assassination attempts and repeated attempts to silence him over the last 24 months, over the last ten years really. but on an emotional level, for dasha and yulia, alexei's daughter and wife, it is obviously devastating and disorienting when your husband and father just disappears at the hands of this regime. it's very, very unsettling. >> what's your sense of what putin is doing here? i mean, after being part of that documentary that was so incredible and just really showed what a threat navalny is to -- he views him as the threat. what's your biggest fear about this? >> well, kaitlan, i think it goes without saying that my biggest fear is that the regime is trying to murder alexei. this is a project that they started years ago. originally they tried to poison him with a soviet air nerve agent called noef chuck. they have thrown him in prison where he has been in a gulag in solitary confinement in tortuous conditions for the better part of three years. it's very clear they're trying to silence him. now this latest disappearance comes three or four days after putin announces he's going to be running again in russia's next sham election for another six years of power. and it's no coincidence that navalny disappears a mere three or four days after putin makes that announcement. what it really speaks to is how frightened the regime is, how nervous putin personally is about this guy. >> i think it's obviously just such a concern for everyone. of course no answer that his family or his attorneys have gotten. and we'll be watching it all closely. daniel moore, thank you. meanwhile, another story that we're following here. rudy giuliani was back in court today, found liable for defaming two election workers. now a jury is about to decide the price that he is going to pay. donald trump's former lawyer rudy giuliani facing a potentially ruinous trial of his own tonight, as he could be forced to pay up to $43 million in damages to the two former georgia election workers, mother, daughter, ruby freeman and shaye moss, you know them, well who are simply doing their jobs back in 2021 giuliani falsely accuse them of voter fraud, trying to demonize them as symbols of a rigged election that wasn't rigged. he claimed that they were acting suspiciously, and yeah, i'm being serious now, claiming they were acting like drug dealers, accusations that led to them being harassed by people who even showed up at their home. rudy giuliani has already been found liable for defaming these two women. but now we are in the penalty phase of this case. this is how day one went. >> do you regret what you did -- >> of course i don't regret. i told the truth. they were engaged in changing of votes. >> there is no proof of that. >> your -- right about that. stay tuned. >> there is no proof of that. not true, wasn't, isn't true now. here tonight is someone with the truth, andrew kirtzman, who knows rudy giuliani extremely well, having followed him for three decades as a political reporter and the author of giuliani, the rise and tragic fall of america's mayor. i mean, what do you make of the defiance you see of him coming out of court as he did today? >> extraordinary. it's very characteristic of giuliani, who never admits a fault in anything. but seeing what he's facing in terms of damages and sticking to that allegation is really something. it's really something. >> i mean, he might potentially have to pay a lot of money we know he doesn't have. his attorney was saying today that $43 million would be the civil equivalent of the death penalty. but i wonder as someone who's covered him for as long as you have, what do you make of the fact that he's being held accountable for what he said? >> i think giuliani is finally paying the price for a lifetime of character assassination. i mean, destroying reputations is what rudy giuliani does. he did it as prosecutor, he did it as mayor. and in my book, i write about an election campaign and catholic school, where he stood up at an audience and eviscerating a candidate for senior class president. this is what giuliani is and what he's done. and you know, in some ways, the public, when he was mayor, kind of appreciated it. i mean, he took over new york city as a mayor when new york was in decline. his predecessor was kind of a passive presence. and giuliani was a fighter. and the new york times endorsed him for reelection in 1997, they call them a human hand grenade. there was something about him that people -- >> they meant it as a compliment? >> they meant it as a compliment, absolutely. >> and now, the pan has been pulled. >> donald trump certainly liked those qualities in giuliani. and the problem now in this trial is that he's under a microscope because they lost the election. and it was clearly easy to determine that giuliani was wrong about this. and now he's paying the price. >> but he's still defiant, coming out with his advisor there. but i've also noticed, just as someone who's covered this world and used to see rudy giuliani at the white house all the time, he seems very isolated for this life used to have. >> sure, but he's also broke. so, i mean, he is -- at one point, when right after 9/11 is consulting firm earned $100 million in five years. i mean, he owned, what was it, seven houses an 11 country club memberships? i mean, he was on top of the world. you know, fast forward, he's selling his apartment, his last i guess asset trying to stave off bankruptcy. >> so what does it mean if he gets hit with $43 million, i mean, even half of that? >> right, i think he will have to declare bankruptcy. i mean, he's got ten civil suits filed against him right now. he's been indicted. he's an unindicted coconspirator, conspirator in d.c.. >> are you thinking of rudy giuliani having to file bankruptcy though, it's kind of remarkable to watch the political world to know what he used to be. >> right. well, you know, it's one of the great rise and fall stories of our lifetime. >> andrew kirtzman, as someone who's covered it, thank you for joining us tonight. and thank you for joining us tonight. cnn news night with abby philip occurs right after a short break, so stick around. first time i connected with kim, she told me that her husband had passed. and that he took care of all of the internet connected devices in the home. i told her, “i'm here to take care of you.” connecting with kim... made me reconnect with my mom. it's very important to keep loved ones close. we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. i'm here to thank you. ♪ ♪ ♪

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