The justices denying that request for intervention from the state, hut with just a single sentence, no recorded vote, no dissent. Alabama has been ordered to come up with two majority black districts, or something quite close to that. To better represent the states 27 black population. The map the republicans offer still only had one majority black district, but with this decision today, alabama will now have to be on its way to have a new map in time for the 2024 election. Something that could have national implications. Thank you so much for joining us for this busy news hour tonight. Cnn prime time with Abby Phillips starts right now. Tonight, we are going to play for you jake tappers entire interview with Cassidy Hutchinson. Shes a former trump aide whose testimony may end up leading to his conviction. She discusses their, her tumultuous time in the white house. Her biggest fear about a trump second term, and her message to anyone who is still loyal to the former president. But first, we have two breaking stories that are unfolding right now. Good evening everyone, im abby philip. The very first one that impacts all americans tonight, the United States government is just days away from a crippling government shutdown. And a Collision Court is emerging. The senate has cut a bipartisan deal to keep the government open until november. That includes more than Six Billion Dollars in aid to ukraine. But, it does appear that that bill is Dead On Arrival in the house. As you know now, republicans have been fighting with each other, hardliners want drastic cuts to spending. Which includes more money for Border Security, and less for ukraine. Now, House Speaker kevin mccarthy, who is by the way, fighting for his job, says that the houses Counter Offer will include a Border Security package. But for some, including congressman matt gaetz, that is not enough. Now remember, if the government shuts down, key agencies and National Parks will all be closed. Servicemen and women will be at risk of not being paid, and Every Day Life will be impacted for all americans. With food inspections, to lines at the airport. Joining me now is congressman, ralph norman, hes a republican from south carolina. Congressman, thank you for joining us tonight. Speaker mccarthy, just a few moments ago in a press search said that it was a mistake for the senate to include even more funding for ukraine. He is dismissing that Stopgap Measure that theyve put on the table. He says that hes going to put forward a republican bill with border provisions, likely as soon as friday. Hes daring hardliners to vote against him. What do you say to mccarthy tonight . Well, i agree with what the senate put forward, with 6. 5 billion for ukraine. 5. 2 billion from what i understand, for disaster relief. Then the same spending through november 15th, of this year. Which is totally unacceptable. Along with all the other spending that has been in place. That is a complete Dead On Arrival. I hope, in the house. As far as what Speaker Mccarthy had, we will see with the final numbers are, or what level he wants to propose. But we will see. Do you support a Stopgap Measure to keep the government funded for a shorter period of time until they have more time to consider some of these other longer term Spending Bills . Its got to be what limits we are going to agree to, and at what amount. We will learn more about that tomorrow. But, look, this is all about we are doing this the right way. Although its a little late, we are debating the individual Preparation Bills as it should be. This is all about getting this country back on track. You hear a lot of Different Things the democrats are saying. They dont mind spending this country into oblivion. We just have a basic disagreement on that. You said a few days ago that the chances of a shutdown were 100 percent. Where do you think things stand . We will find out this week. You only have about four or five more days, now. Its not a lot of time. No, its not. But, the fact is, we are debating the bills. Weve got them on the floor. Weve got 400 amendments, which has really been unheard of in the previous reign of miss pelosi. We will see. It is a the shutdown, we have to remember, the government shut the businesses down back during the covid virus for a year and a half. They shut children out of schools. So if we shut the government down, the pressure has still has to be on the passing these Appropriation Bills in a conservative way, and won that gets this country back on Firm Financial footing, which we are not on right now. So your colleague, congressman matt gaetz, he is once again, today, threatening to oust Speaker Mccarthy. Listen to what he said. The one thing i agree with my democrat colleagues on is that for the last eight months, this house has been poorly led. We own that, we have to do something about it. You know what, my democratic colleagues will have an opportunity to do something about that too. We will see if they bail out our failed speaker. Do you agree with congressman gaetz, there . Well, heres what i agree on. I think the September 30th Date has always been there. October one has been the start of the new budget year four 240 years, as far as i remember. I dont remember that far back. But, bottom line, we should have had them in june and july. Spending and getting the budget in a priority has just not been a priority for the speaker. I fault him for that. Now, he will have to decide where he wants to go from here. What is he going to take a stand on . Is he going to fight the senate, what the senate sends back . Weve got a light to fight for. We control the purse strings, not the senate. Do you think that this issue is enough to force a vote to oust Speaker Mccarthy . It depends on what he puts forward tomorrow, and what he wants to do, as far as the cer. We are going to have some honest discussions to see. I dont know, because we dont know the numbers yet. Thats what weve asked for. Since july 10th when the Freedom Caucus sent a letter. That is what we still dont know what the agreement is going to be. We want today one point 47, they talked about a 5. 2 trillion. We will see. But what the senate has is totally out of reality. And i hope the leadership will fight this tooth and nail, and get them back something that is conservative, far less than what they are proposing. Both sides, the senate and the house, still incredibly far apart tonight, as we speak here, congressman ralph norman, thank you so much for joining us tonight. My pleasure. Our other big story tonight, Donald Trumps entire business, and political career has been built on the illusion of success. But tonight, his Business Empire is now at risk. A judge in new york finding that the former president and his two adult sons are liable for fraud, and canceling the Trump Organizations Business Certification in the state of new york. Now, the judge says that trump made false Financial Statements for a decade, inflating their worth, defrauding banks, and in turn, receiving better loan terms and insurance costs. All of this, just days before the new York Attorney generals suit is set to go to a trial. Joining me now is someone who knows a lot about the Trump Organization, barbara writes, shes a former executive Vice President at the Trump Organization. Shes also the author of tower of lies, what my 18 years working with donald trump reveals about him. Barbara, can donald trump and the Trump Organization survive this ruling . No, ive been asked that question so many times. Logically, no. It doesnt look like it. Somehow, he pulls things out of the air. I dont think that the Trump Organization is going to survive this one. But, you never know. You were in charge of the construction of trump tower, that iconic building in new york. The judge says that trumps xxx apartment in trump tower was overvalued by 100 and 14 to 200 and 7 million due to trump saying that the apartment was three times its size. Does that surprise you at all . No. Absolutely not. Because he says anything about trump tower was a big blown apply. Get the highest numbers. Anything was incorrect. It was just whatever he thought he could get away with. And he could get away with anything. Did you see evidence of these kinds of Deceptive Practices when you were a part of the Trump Organization . Yeah. I did. But its kind of like a different it wasnt on a level of Criminality Or crimes that hes done, it was more like stuff that was really lies, but they werent something that somebody was gonna sue him. For can you give us an example . Silly things. Like the materials in the building. In the apartments. He would say that he had these wood floors, they were crap. Im sorry to say this, they were glued down. One foot by one foot tiles. He said the marble in the bathrooms was, bella, blah. It was not just goes on and on. But whos going to call him on that . In the beginning, most of the people changed, it dont really matter. Thats really fascinating. Yeah. Ive just got to say, as first value, he tripled the value. He lied, we did sell an apartment for 1 million dollars, he said he sold for three. Theres also the issue of maralago in all of this. Overvalued by 2300 . Do you think, just taking a step back here, that were not for these Deceptive Practices, would donald trump be where he is today, in terms of his political standing . In terms of his financial wealth . Its not only these Deceptive Practices. Its lying on a very, very large scale. You can see it in his presidency. He got away with this so that he moved on to this. It was the same thing that you are talking about now. He could get away with over valuing something by 20 , 100 percent, 1000 percent, he just kept doing it. Barbara res, thats very interesting. Thank you. You are something that is working closely with trump for all those years. I appreciate you joining us tonight. My pleasure, thank you. Coming up next, jake tapper s entire interview with former trump aide, Cassidy Hutchinson. And her candid revelations about what she saw inside of the white house. With mark meadows did, and why she says that trump is the single greatest threat to our democracy. That is next. Tonight, former white house aide, Cassidy Hutchinson, is warning in a new cnn interview that a second trump term would be more dangerous than the first. Telling our own jake tapper that the former president is, quote, the greatest threat to american democracy. Here is part one of our sit down with Cassidy Hutchinson. Cassidy, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me, jake. So, a few years ago, donald trump, President Trump was a man you described in your book as adoring. And now, you are doing this book tour, in which you tell the story from childhood to your courageous testimony. You are basically warning the world that he shouldnt be president ever again. A, thats quite a journey. And be, why shouldnt he be president ever again . I would like to start by saying that i came forward to testify because, one, that was what i was obligated to do. I swore an oath to protect and defend the United States, and that was what i was subpoenaed to do. I was at a point where i had not been completely forthcoming with the committee, charged with investigating the most great attack on the United States in recent history. I came forward, not with the goal, or anything other than providing people with the truth. Ive seen how people are elevating the truth, and how people are not holding themselves accountable. It was my duty as an american, as it is every americans duty, to hold themselves at the oath they swear. Yeah, right now, the American People are going through another election, or are about to. And we, donald trump is leading in the polls, when it comes to the republican primaries. Even in some polls when it comes to head to head matchup with president biden. The other day, trump suggested that the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the outgoing chairman, general mark milley, committed treason. He suggested that Capital Punishment would be on the table, or should be on the table. Would you see a message like that, how seriously do you take it . Milley has suggested to people, according to the atlantic magazine, he expects if donald trump is elected president again, that donald trump will try to go after him. When you see that, do you think he means it . Or do you think thats just i do jake. You, do you think humans are . I do believe he means it. But what i would like to say to this is, i think four years, we have not tell donald trump accountable to the things that he says. When he says those things, and when he strokes those vitriolic comments to people who have had profound careers defending our democracy, like general milley, we need to take him seriously. People have been holding him accountable for the past years. But obviously not accountable enough. Because we are in a position, right now, where it is looking more likely than not that he could be the republican nominee. He has also been indicted four times. To me, it is sad that we are in this place, as a country, where we are looking at somebody who has executed this horrible assault on our democracy, and we are continuing to get this person a platform. Thats not what we should stand for as americans. I think that donald trump is the most grave threat that we will face to our democracy in our lifetime. And potentially in american history. When he says things like he wants to use the Department Of Justice to go after his enemies, when he says things like he did on truth social the other day, that he wants to curtail Freedom Of The Press for certain channels. And that sort of thing. Youve taken literally, you think he actually means it, and in a second term, he would do that . I think that donald trump in a second term does not have any would not have guardrails. I think we saw that at the end of the first term, with how things played out after he lost the election. He violated our constitution in multiple ways. It is completely fine to File Lawsuits in states. Sure, of course. But what is not okay when you threaten and assault the constitution and our institutions of government. I would not put it past donald trump, jake, to put those institutions of government in a worse position than they were in during the first term. So, as youve noted, hes now facing 91 Felony Charges and four different investigations. Hes been indicted four times. Youve testified in front of the georgia grand jury. You were interviewed by federal investigators overseeing the january six investigation. And indictment and the classified documents case. And indictment, how do you feel about the charges hes facing. I know youre not a lawyer. But i know that you also read these documents. When you look at the evidence, and then when you hear his excuses, or his defense, do you think hes guilty . To hold off on providing my personal opinions on that, and only because with the platform i think we all should look towards, and the platform at least that i am trying to adopt in this era of my life, is it is sometimes just as dangerous to speculate about what could be going on behind doors at the justice department. I am confident in our system of government. I think that we have to leave it to the investigators to be able to collect the facts. That is why i came forward and testify truthfully to all the investigations. I think that if he is convicted, then that is a conviction that we need to accept as americans. And we need to trust our institutions of government. But i will say this to, jake, i think these are the people that are running our government at the end of the trump administration. The most loyal of loyal trump people. The most loyal of loyal trump people, and who have also been indicted. Some people some of these individuals have also been indicted. We have to think, what would a second trump term look like . With these be the people that are eventing the government. People that are currently facing indictments. Who would work for donald trump in his second term . That is the question that we need to be asking ourselves going into this election season. Lets talk about mark meadows, who was the white house Chief Of Staff. You were basically the Chief Of Staff to the Chief Of Staff. You write in your book that in one of the first conversations you had with meadows, in the white house, he said to you, cass, if i can get through this job and managed to keep him out of jail, meaning donald trump, ill have done a good job. A, when he said that, do you think he meant that literally . And be, do you think that your testimony might actually result in donald trump going to joe . In that moment when mark said that to me, it was more of a wake up call moment, a moment where i felt frightened for the first time. But also concerned about mark. When you are in this job, and i think people its difficult to put this into words. Especially if you dont have people who are willing to be forthcoming and honest about the positions that you occupy and government. Especially in the trump administration, and in 2020, every day was a hair on fire day. We were swimming to stay afloat, but most of us were drowning. So when mark said that, that day, i was alarmed. Because it was one of those moments, for me, where i thought that i had a grasp on what was going on, i realized i didnt. But i did take mark seriously, in that moment. And in that moment, for me, in my service to mark, i wanted to make sure that i did whatever i could to help mark achieve his goal. To keep trump out of jail . Correct. Thats also something i worked through a lot in the book. It was not the staffs job to control a president who might end up in prison. I think thats one of the more unfortunate things that we have sort of gravitated to, as a society. Where this is normal now. Its not normal, but it has been perceived as being normal now. The other question was, do you think that your testimony might ultimately result in donald trump going to prison . I came forward to testify with the information that i knew, and most of the information that i knew could be corroborated by other people. I hope that what i testified to would cause other people to come forward and testify truthfully. So you and meadows were close at one point, i know. And in the georgia case, as you noted, you alluded to, hes now facing criminal charges. He has pleaded not guilty. Lets show the mugshot. Of mark meadows. When you see that photo, in some ways, im sure for people who love mark meadows, or who loved him at one time, thats a tragic photo. For other people, who dont like mark meadows, its not, im sure. What goes through your mind when you look at that picture . I see someone that didnt have to be in this position. I see that picture, and i feel sorry for him, in some ways. Because he had a lot of opportunities to do the right thing. And to come forward. Hes a man that has a family. And that is also another unfortunate impact of all of this. When you are in donald trump circle, and you have that loyalty to him, it impacts your life in more ways than one can imagine. I hope that mark is doing the right thing, if he hasnt already been doing the right thing, as what i define the right thing. You will be cooperating with investigators . I hope he would cooperate and uphold the oath that he swore. He knows a lot better than i know about what happened during the November 2020 through january 2021 period. It doesnt seem like hes cooperating with the georgia case. But we dont know if hes cooperating with federal investigators. That seems to be this unanswered question. Looking at the Republican Party going forward, and whether or not the Republican Party nominates donald trump, hes currently far ahead in the league in the polls right now. But i want to play this moment from the first republican primary debate. If former President Trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your partys choice . Please, raise your hand, if you would. [applause] thats the first debate. The second one is tomorrow. Basically, the only candidates that said they would not support donald trump if he were a felon, a convicted felon, were asa hutchinson, and Chris Christie. Asa hutchinson did not make the debate stage for tomorrow night. So Chris Christie will be the only republican candidate on the debate stage tomorrow night who said he would not vote for donald trump if he were a convicted felon. And hes also really the only one whos been outspoken in his criticism of donald trump, when it comes to january 6th. What does that say to you about Donald Trumps hold on the Republican Party . I want to point out that something is really critical about what you just said, jake. That is if Donald Trumps tried interdicted, that wasnt asking if he the did not ask if he is still going through the trials. Its if he is a convicted felon. The council that donald trump is currently facing, hes facing counts of obstructing the constitution. To me, that is disqualifying. Donald trump should be disqualified from being the president of the United States. To me, thats not a question. When i watch that, i watched that debate. I was hopeful about several of the candidates on that stage. I thought a lot of them had good forward thinking answers. At In The Beginning of the debate, i could sort of see a light at the end of the tunnel null. Who decides your fellow new jersey resident, Chris Christie . I had a lot of hope with nikki haley. I thought she had very intelligent and well flushed out answers on things. Even mike pence. I was really disappointed in when i saw mike pence raise his hand. You know, jake, i think donald trump has such a grip on these people. Sometimes i cant quite put my finger on why. Why is it so easy for these people to go along with this . Why is it so easy for these people to say that what he is doing is okay . Because to me, in that moment, they are saying that they are conceding that they are okay with waging a war on our constitution. That is not a republican value. That is not an american value. Those are the types of candidates that we are looking at for 2024, though. I will ask about kevin mccarthy. You, at one point, were very close to him. In the book, you call him kevin. Youre on a first name basis with him. He wasnt the speaker at the time, but he was the House Majority leader, im sorry, Minority Leader for the republicans. At the end of the book, you read about being disillusioned by mccarthy. You started a sense, a significant shift and kevin. Whats the shift . What happened to mccarthy in your view . I think that kevin had an opportunity, after january 6th, as did mitch mcconnell, as did all the elected officials in congress that are republicans, to denounce what happened on january 6th, and work against trump still having a stronghold in the Republican Party. Kevin was fairly outspoken in the days after january 6th, about how it was wrong. But then, the former president left office, mccarthy went down to maralago. To me, that was sort of the beginning of that transpired transformation, where we were able nothing is going to change. I still have a lot of respect for kevin, i hope the best for him as the speaker. Especially as we see the chaos that is happening on capitol hill right now. But i im not confident that hes a good leader for the Republican Party. Because he is a talking head for donald trump. Kevin hasnt taken a strong stand against it. Im confident that kevin knows all of this is wrong. A few days after the election, mccarthy look, you are in the white house. Im sure you didnt see everything. But just a few days after the election, he went on. Kevin mccarthy went on fox and send donald trump won in a landslide. But the day of january 6th, he also said he voted to disenfranchise pennsylvania and arizona. He was part of the big lie, along with everybody else. You are not wrong on that, jake. But i think even if we look at the senate, with Senator Mcconnell, they brought an Impeachment Trial against the former president. If Senator Mcconnell had wanted to get the ten votes, they would not be facing this issue right now. He could have likely whipped ten votes in the senate to make sure donald trump could never be president again. This is just deep lag that has unfortunately infiltrated the entire Republican Party. Im not confident that the Republican Party is going to continue to exist, at least the Republican Party that i have known, and the Republican Party that i originally came to be a part of. Lets talk about january 6th. Because one of the things you really brought to everyones attention, in your testimony, was how much donald trump wanted to go to the capitol on january 6th. Demanded to go to the capitol on january 6th. I think one of the Big Questions that i have is why . What did he want to do at the capitol . I cant speculate. I heard several things. You cant speculate. You have more information. But that wouldnt be responsible. Definitively, i dont know what he wanted to do that day. What are some ideas . What i know if he was the reason he wanted to go to the capitol, there is a reason he wanted to be with his supporters. Donald trump also knows the impact that his words have. He knows the impact that its presence has on his supporters. He knows that he himself riles people up. He knew that the crowd was armed that day. He knew that there were people angry about this. So i, knowing donald trump, knowing what i knew inside the white house, that was not a mistake. He did not want to just go to the capital to go there and make a little speech, then go back to the white house. There was a reason that he wanted to go there. Again, i would like to restate that donald trump knows the impact of his words. So on january 6th, when he wanted to go to the capitol, everything that was intentional. The mark milley tweet that you earlier mentioned from this past weekend, he knows the impact that those words will have. He knows that people will come out and be violent to about these people. Thats what he wants. Yeah, there will be, if there are not already, Death Threats against milley. Absolutely. During the capitol attack, you heard meadows say that then President Trump didnt want to do anything to stop it. We heard the chants, hang mike pence, hang mike pence. What did meadows say about hang mike pence . What did you over here . This was when the former white House Counsel came into our office, and petard said that had said they needed to go down to the oval diamonding room where the president was. The rioters had gotten into the capital. Mark had relayed it to pet cipollone, to the effect of, you heard him, pat, he doesnt want to do anything. He doesnt want to do anything. He doesnt want to do anything. And still ahead, more objects interview with Cassidy Hutchinson. Including how she turned up to work the day after january 6th. We will be back in a moment. the new stuffed quesadillas. Only at El Pollo Loco the power goes out and we still have wifi the to do our homework. Llas. And thats a good thing . Great in my book who are you . No power . No problem. Introducing stormready wifi. Now you can stay reliably connected through Power Outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery backup to keep you online. Only from xfinity. Home of the xfinity 10g network. The new summer family meal. Starting at 24. Only at El Pollo Loco. Despite what Cassidy Hutchinson witnessed on january 6th, she did show up to work the very next day. Hutchinson tells jake tapper why she found it so difficult to ultimately break away from trump world. So, on the morning of january 7th, you still want to work. I did. This is one of the things that i think some of your critics on the left, or never trumpers who are republicans say, you see your friend alyssa griffin, Alyssa Farah Griffin go on tv. Shes denouncing january 6th others resigned that day. Secretary mnuchin, you write in your book, was considering invoking the 25th amendment. You can sit continue to work there. Tell me what you went back. Obviously you feel very passionate about this and youve been very brave in your testimony. But you still, on january 7th, went back to work. I did. I wish i had a glossy and short Cookie Cutter Answer for you, jake. Something that i still struggle with to this day, that i will say, i would like to also reference what alyssa did on that day. Alyssa Farah Griffin. I remember sitting in that office. I was very outspoken. On january 6th, and every day after, that i strongly disagreed with what happened. Internally, correct. Yes, internally. But when i saw alyssa that day, it was this moment for me, where i sort of felt that split. On one hand, i was very upset with her. She was one of my closest friends. I was upset with her for a variety of reasons. But the one that i think is the most potent for this conversation, i felt that what she did that day was disloyal. Right. Saying that now, with hindsight and experience i have, sounds ludicrous. But its an honest answer, i appreciate it. But it is. I think thats the important part of this transformation period for me. Because on the other hand, when i saw her there, there was a little bit of envy. I was proud of her for doing what she felt that she had to be doing. And for using her voice. I gave alyssa lot of credit. I allowed ventrally came to her side and she was the one that welcomed me. She was the first person that actually welcomed me and helped me get to this point. But i say all of, this jake, because i did struggle with what i should do. I had committed to moving to florida with the former president. Again, its that push, pull, inside of me. Were on one hand, i felt that january 6th happened because we, the, staff didnt do enough to step pit. We, the staff, should have not left people around him that shouldve struck this desire for him to overturn the election on january 6th. You say in the book that you felt complicit. Correct. But then theres the other side of me. Where i was afraid to look disloyal. I was afraid to split from the royal. Because once you are in that environment, and have the access, and have the insight and knowledge that you do. You sort of feel like there is a target on your back. I did not move to florida with him. But i stayed on payroll with him for several months after. The end of the administration. I still had the moral dilemma inside of me through that whole period. Its a push poll of one poll is doing the right thing, correct. The other polls loyalty and fear. Correct. Is that right . Thats fairly accurate. I would also like to say, though, before i was subpoenaed by the january 6th committee, i did work too slowly start to separate. I wanted to start a new chapter in my career, because i disagreed with not only what happened on january 6th, but i saw the trajectory of republican politics. I didnt want to be a direct part of that for the most part. Again, it was difficult. Im not trying to make excuses. I dont have a heros complex over here. I know a lot of what i did was wrong. I got to where i am today. But it was an important year for me. Because i was able to look back and reflect on things that, one, that i was complicit in. But also, understand the dangers of what we were doing at the white house. One of the other things that you ever hear trump saying is when the Supreme Court refuses to hear that case from texas, that wild case from texas that has all these lies and things, ken paxton, the Attorney General of texas. And trump is livid. He starts yelling at meadows. We should have made more calls. We shouldve done this, we shouldve done that. I dont know exactly what couldve been done. Its the Supreme Court. Then trump says i dont want people to know we lost. Its embarrassing. Thats potentially of significance, legally, if he knows that he lost. Correct. I elaborate on this in my testimony to, where i cant climb inside the former president s mind and know exactly what he was thinking. But its not just me that has come forward with information like that. General milley has also said that he was in the former president s president s when he admitted that he lost. Alyssa Farah Griffin as well. I cant speculate about his actual mindset, and his motivations behind this, but in that moment, it was clear to me that there weres some concession. I would also like to point out, jake, that the president Directed Mark to speak in declassifying the before january 6th happened. Because he was worried that those documents would never get declassified under a biden administration. So, there was a mentality in that era of just chaos, to be frank. It is happening in the white house. It wasnt lost on people that joe biden had won the election. And that he had won the election, and that it was a free and fair election. But yet, january 6th still happened. One of the things i wonder, because you talk about this journey, i dont want to belittle it, but it does sound like leaving a cult. It really does. Its difficult for you to leave. You are talking about loyalty, you are talking about fear of what happens to you if you leave. You are also talking about doing the right thing. Not trying to belittle it at all. But it does sound like when people talk about leaving a cult. It does sound like that. Then there also is this Inflection Point where you are basically told, you are not coming down to florida. To join the president s staff at maralago. I was insufficiently loyal. I guess they thought you were leaking some stuff. By the way, maybe wouldve helped them avoid the classified documents scandal i did my best in everything i was asked, jake. One of the things i wonder is do you ever think that if they had let you go down to maralago, what would have happened . Would you have testified . You would have been subpoenaed, probably, but would history have turned out differently, with the push bill still have gone on . Would you stopped on the right thing if you are down in maralago. What is that alternative history . I guess my short answer is i dont know, because thats not what played out. Its not what happened, obviously, you do the right thing. You do the brave thing. I havent ever been, you say this, i have not been in a cult. We can sit here and debate whether the Maga Movement is a cult what i will say on that, i would hope that i would have come forward to do the right things still. But when you are in that environment, it becomes a lot more difficult. And i did get brought back into that environment. For a short period of time, when i first began doing my depositions with the committee. But i didnt feel empowered to comply completely but also jake, if im being completely candid and frank, i still felt that loyalty to him at the end of the administration. I worry that if i had gone down to florida, that that would have only grown. And i would not have come forward. Whether or not what i testify to changes the trajectory of any investigation, i filled what i was obligated to do under the oath that i swore to protect and defend the constitution, and the country. And i fulfill the obligations of my subpoena. And to me, this is not about what i did and the impact that it has. For me, its more about i was able to maintain my character, and my integrity after i retained new Legal Counsel who empowered me, and showed me the importance of telling the whole truth. So anybody that finds themselves in a situation like that, i would encourage them to listen to your conscience. This moment is much bigger than us. So i guess the question, the big question that is this. What you did was the right thing, no question. But it was also, i think its fair to say, more difficult. Right . There probably are other trump people who want to do the right thing. But they have their own trump world lawyers, like you had, telling them to say i dont recall, i dont recall, i dont recall, even though they could recall. And they are stuck. Why would they do the right thing . Do you regret doing the right thing, ever . No. Why not . Im glad you did the right thing. Dont get me wrong. You dont have to. Im not asking for anyone to i think its important to acknowledge that you to the right thing. But thats not the easier thing. No, thats correct, i also want to be clear as, i was writing the book with my fantastic collaborator, mark salter, who worked for johnny cain for decades. Mark and i had this conversation a lot to, about what it actually meant to break from trump world. Mark and i had a lot of profound conversations about this mentality that i still had to break. I didnt write this book with the intention of trying to convince people that i did the right thing. I wrote this book with the intention to show my journey, and i dont love the word journey it sounds a little like the bachelor. But the journey that i had of being a trump world insider. Im not a democrat. I still consider myself a republican, but i dont consider myself part of what the Republican Party largely identifies with today. Which is the trump Republican Party, in my opinion. But in this period for me, ive never once doubted my decision to come forward and be truthful, and be honest. I had a conversation with a member of congress who is a republican member of congress that did not serve on the january 6th committee. This is the person with the pseudonym in your book . Yes, sam. Sam, right. Ive been very open with sam throughout this period, about how i was struggling. We spoke on the phone one night and sam told me. He said, go look in the mirror. Ill stay on the phone, go look in the mirror. This is before you made your big decision . This is before i started back channeling to do this. Im looking in the mirror, im on the phone with sam. He said to me, do you like what you are looking at . You are the only person that has to live with yourself for the rest of your life. Nobody else has to. Do you like what youre looking at . I dont mean your appearance, cassidy. Do you like the person that you are. And i hadnt liked who i was for a while. And i knew in that moment that i had to correct course for myself and come back to the person that i wanted to be. And the person i thought i saw myself becoming when i entered public service. The book is enough. The author is Cassidy Hutchinson. Thanks so much for talking to us. Really preceded. Really appreciate it. Really fascinating interview there with Cassidy Hutchinson, lets discuss this with sara fischer, cnn Media Analyst and senior media reporter for axios. Also with us is cnn senior political analyst, john avlon. And stuart stevens, Senior Adviser at the lincoln project, who is a former republican strategist and the author of the book, the conspiracy to end america. John, i want to start with you here. That last chunk of that exchange there really dug deep into the psyche of someone who is clearly coming out of something. Yeah. A deep fog, perhaps. Jake asked if it felt like she was coming out of a cult, what do you think . I think thats a really important interview. For people who are still under the sway of donald trump to watch and taken. She talks about her process. Where she felt so divided, she was being pulled to do the right thing. But still felt loyalty. Her ego was wrapped up in donald trump. The defense of donald trump, understandably for someone whos worked in the white house. And, yet was confronting lies that had led to an attack on the capitol. And witnessed those lies a close, and the corrosive impact on her, and that country. She, ultimately, did move outside that hothouse. That she lived in. But so many people are still in it. The fact that she is one of many Trump Officials who now say that donald trump is the gray vest threat to democracy in our lifetime, possibly in american history, that is striking. That call is coming from within the house. People who are still with donald trump and cant bring themselves to separate should look at people like Cassidy Hutchinson and that is the sign of coming attractions. She does have this very clear message in all of her media she says the guardrails will not be there a second time around. Do you think thats going to have an impact, where we are in our political moment . Yeah, absolutely. If you think about it, what she describes was so chaotic, was to off the rails. If the guardrails that were there are not going to be around the second time around, and it is that chaotic, that is what we would expect in the next presidency. But i also think, in terms of a wider impact, what she represents is someone who is speaking out, in terms of the fear of what the maga community will do, if you go out against donald trump. The fact that she had to weigh doing what she knew was right, versus not, because she was scared about how she was going to be perceived, how she was going to bullied online. How other Trump Officials would label her, how they would talk about her in the media. That Fear Campaign speaks to a huge problem, if other people in the trump world ever want to come forward. And if we, in the public, want to learn more. We need people who are inside to come forward in order to get the full picture. Stuart, this is really, seems to me, in your wheelhouse here. Because what she is describing is what it feels like to be cast out. What happens to people like Cassidy Hutchinson, when All Of The Lights come down on this book tour . She really has only herself, as she said in that last part of the clip, the person that she sees when she looks back in the mirror. What can she expect . I mean, shes going to have a much cleaner soul, and a much happier life for doing what shes doing. You know what impresses me the most about this interview is her accepting responsibility. Its something i felt. I helped elect a lot of these people, who then went i never wouldve believed, it went and supported trump. One of the things that drew me, the Republican Party, was a sense of personal responsibility. Which turned out to be just a Marketing Slogan for the party. But i believe in it, when i wrote a, book i said blame me. I helped elect these people. Thats something that all of us who helped build this Republican Party have to ask. This isnt about donald trump. Donald trump is just this weird guy from queens that ran for president. Its the Republican Party that accepted him, and made him president. All of these people that now come out and say, well, what happened on january 6th is so terrible. Trump was a terrible person before that. How many of these people would still be working for him if he was reelected . A lot of them. I dont think Cassidy Hutchinson would, but a lot of these political figures. When you see where the party is, where the majority overwhelmingly of the party is where trump is, its not about donald trump. Its about some deep failure in corruption, and collapse of a party, unlike anything weve seen in american history. Just to add on what stewart says, hes been eloquent about this for a long time. Its about not just party over country, but power over principle. What you witnessed, i think, in that interview, was a process of deradicalization that Cassidy Hutchinson went over. This Group Identity is enforced by trying to keep people in the group, when they step outside, you punish them. You try to turn them into examples to a reinforced group cohesion. The fact that trump is where he is in the Republican Party today, on the verge of renominating him, thats what i think is so dangerous. When you see former trump acolytes, warning, the loudest, the people who know him best, mourning the most about the damage it could do to our country, thats whats so stark. Also just to flag on that, its not just the people in trumps inner circle that are going to make you feel like that, its a Broader Community of people who have latched onto this movement. Trolls online, people who dont know donald trump, have never worked for him. That to me is almost the scariest part about removing yourself. Because theres such a huge swarm of people that are going to come after you. Its not just the people that you can name in a room that you work with at one point. Its perhaps fair to ask, whether its even about only trump anymore. Or the Trump Movement that lives beyond him. Sarah zhang and stewart, thank you very much for joining us on all of that. Thats it for me here on cnn prime time. Cnn tonight with laura coats picks it up next. With a big legal blow to former President Trump on the agenda, after that new york judge found him liable for fraud. Stay with us. Good evening everyone, im laura coates. Tonight,