The 2020 election. 18 others charged as well, including big names. Rudy giuliani, measuring meadows, with that many people, does it make it more likely that someone could flip. Prosecutors call it a Criminal Enterprise and they are leaning hard on Racketeering Laws to make their case. Im kate bolduan with john berman and sara sidner. This is cnn news central. Donald trump and 18 codefendants have 10 days to turn themselves in and surrender in georgia. In a 98page indictment, the former president , who is also the current front runner for the 2024 republican nomination is accused of plotting against the Very Constitution he swore to protect. And the office he hopes to hold again. Fulton County District attorney fani willis argues all 19 defendants refuseed to accept that trump lost and knowingly joined a conspiracy to change the outcome of the election. I make decisions base d on te facts and the law. The law is completely nonpartisan. Thats how decisions are made in every cay case. We look at facts, we look at the law and bring charges. We begin this hour with paula reid outside the courthouse in atlanta. This is an enormous case. How different is this case from the Special Counsels case brought along the same lines . Reporter theres certainly some sloverlap, but the way thi case is structured is different. First of all, the scope of the conspiracy that she alleges here and remember the Special Counsel made a decision to focus on one man, on former President Trump. While he lists other coconspirators, he did not charge anyone else. Here the former president is charged alongside 18 other people, including some of his closest advisers like former Chief Of Staff mark meadows and rudy giuliani. Giuliani is referenced in the Special Counsels indictment. He is coconspirator one, but he was not formally charged. And mark meadows was hardly mentioned at all in the indictment, but he features prominently here, which makes sense because the January 6th Committee concluded that when it comes to the alleged conspiracy, all roads run through mark med dose. We got to hear from one of the witness who is testified yesterday. Former State Senator explained how she sees the comparison between the federal and state prosecutions. Lets take a listen. I was there to really kind of set the scene and begin the story. It was just the implementation of the overall plan at the federal level. So if you look at georgia and then look the at the federal indictment, everything that they wanted to do or plan to do, they were actually doing on the ground in this state. Reporter this is outside the power of former President Trump or any other republican, who is elected president. They would not have the ability to pardon or commute the sentence of anyone who maybe convicted in this case. Can you give us a sense of what happens next with the process is next . Reporter we dont expect theres going to be an issue with the former president following through with that process. Hes cooperated in slender. For the oh three criminal indictments. Once he gets through the process, we can expect the legal challenges will begin. Speaking with someone close to the legal team, they tell me the first order of business is going to be tried to get the state case removed to Federal Court. The two big advantages there for trump, the first being moving this out of the heavily democratic Fulton County jury pool to the broader pool and if there were to be a federal conviction, it would potentially eligible for a pardon from future republican president s. Thank you so much live outside the court in atlanta. This case brought some surprises because of the number of people and who was indict ed. So speaking of the number of people, this is one way, another way to look at this. Lets take a closer look at the legal troubles that donald trump is now a facing. 19 people are charged here. All in a sweeping 98page indictment, that includes 41 criminal counts. And in those pages. The District Attorney outlined 161 discreet acts that the defendants allegedly committed. As for the defendants facing the most chrges, that is donald trump and rudy giuliani, each now facing 13 charges a piece. Those charges bring trumps total count of criminal charges to 91 charges that spanned 4 separate indictments in 4 months. One for hush money payments, two under Special Counsel jack smith, and now this one in georgia. Which brings us to the number 17. As Steven Collins wrote very well today n 17 months, gop front runner donald trump could be raise ing his right hand as e 47th president and swearing to preserve, protect and defend the constitution he was accused of plotting to shred. With us now is legal analyst and form er prosecutor ellie williams. I want to start with you. I want to focus on whats different this morning than existed yesterday. Now we have this georgia case, and we have a new charge within this georgia case than we have seen before. Racketeering, rico, what does that mean and why is it significant . Sure, when people hear rico they think of mafia, Criminal Enterprise organizations. But its actually a far broader law than that, particularly in georgia. In order to be charged with racketeering, prosecutors will allege a Criminal Enterprise that engages in a series of acts all toward one criminal goal. Now each of those acts doesnt themselves have to be crimes, but they are sort of helping to further the conspiracy. What the state of georgia says here is that the trump and other individuals around him engaged in a series of acts designed or directed at undermining the election of 2020 in an illegal manner. Its sweeping, its broad, but the law does allow it. Its not limited to just Organized Crime. So one of the questions that a lot of people have is this a better case . Is this a worse case than the federal case . Is it an easier dice prove in georgia . What do you think about that . Its a very significant case. The minimum sentence of five years is something that im sure donald trump is very concerned about. But really for the next month or so, the Biggest Issue is going to be can donald trump remove this case from state court to Federal Court. Thats complicated. That is messy. Its going to take up a lot of time. I have been hob knobbing with federal experts all over the country. We are a little unsure how thats going to go. As i understand it, to move it, youd have to make the case that the acts he was performing were as president of the United States. Therefore, they were president ial acts. You have to stretch your brain a little bit to get to that point, because was he asking georgia to overturn the Election Results as the president or a political candidate. And if youre a political candidate, do you have president ial rights. He is going to say he was trying to ensure the integrity of the federal election. And the standard here is very braud. Anything within the general scope of duties would allow for removal if theres a defense. And he has one. So i think theres a very good chance that this case is going to be moved to Federal Court. If the case is removed to Federal Court, he may have a type of immunity that he wouldnt have in state court. No one is talking about that, but that is a really big issue. Soo j judge williams, what d you think about the like lihood of moving this to a Federal Court . I think it is a tricky open question. When you have a president who is running for office, where the man, the candidate and the president end are all sort of blurry. They are there are at least questions that a court has to sort out. Is he willing charged on his behavior as an individual, as a candidate or as a president. And theres legal area there than many of us are willing to admit. Its a question a court has to resolve. Im a little bit obsessed with the fact that there are little charges here, but specific charges that go beyond rico. Lying in hearings, perjury before investigators and during the grand jury. Are these in and of themselves easier for prosecutors to prove in a courtroom . It depends on what they have for any individual offense. As a general manner, racketeering is hard to prove and will require a lengthy trial with a lot of evidence, but establishing that somebody falsely filed a document is straight forward. You establish the document, that it was filed and establish that the person knew that what they were doing was a lie. Its relatively straight forward. So its all going to vary and all going to depend on, number one, what prosecutors have, but what they can get into court. A lot of evidence at times got struck for different reasons. Judges cant admit it. So youre down in georgia. There are 19 defendants. Some of whom are georgia specific here. When that many defendants, do you think that everyone on that list is going to want to play hardball with prosecutors or how likely that someone would want to cut a deal . Its extremely likely theres going to be a deal cut. I want to make one more point. Unlike the other cases, race is going to bla a central role in this case. In all kinds of ways. Donald trump is a little more sensitive to black woman than to other people. The jury pool is going to be largely africanamerican, if it stays here. So i do think theres an undercurrent of race in this case, and especially given that its georgia, its going to make it different than the other three cases. I do expect some of those witnesses to turn and to testify against the expresident. Theres a lot of lawyers charged here. A lot. I cant think of another case where so many lawyers are charge ed with crimes. How unique is that and what complications does that provide here . Its not unique where people violate the law 3 the problem for them is theres multiple areas of sang for them. They can go to jail for this conduct. They can also lose their law license, which is an existential point for lawyers. We should not poopoo the fact that once you get past these questions of whether somebody goes to jail, there are serious consequences that can come to some of these people who have been attorneyed for 20 or 30 years. Its frankly a stain on the bar around the country that people were using their law licenses to behave in the manner that they are accused of doing here. Great to have you. Loved your work. Coming up, the former president is rail ing against te indictment this morning and hes announced hes soon holding what he calls a major News Conference. So what happens next . Plus a judge in one of trumps four criminal cases now has washed him against inflammatory rhetoric. But those close to trump say dont expect him to be holding back anything any time soon. More on the trump strategy following his fourth indictment. And any moment, the maralago Property Manager charged in connection to trumps classified documents case faces a federal judge in florida. What werth learning about the arraignment. Well be back. Whats the subway series . Its the perfect sub roster. Just give us a number we got the rest. Four. Supreme meats. Six. X. The boss. Fifteen. Titan turkey. Ninetynine. E. Grand slam ham. Im gonna a need twentythree of those, its my y turn to bring the snacks. they offer two pairs and a free, quality eye exam starting at just 79. 95. I can see from your expression that you find that scking. Aaaaaaaand, you dont have es. Book aexam today at americasbest. Com. Chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. With up to 13 camera views. And the z71 offroad package. You ok . Yeah. Any truck can help you make a living. This one helps you build a life. 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And mines unlisted. Try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for Muscle Health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. Boost® high protein. Now available in cinnabon® bakeryinspired flavor. Learn more at boost. Com tv former President Trump has no plans to keep quiet about the criminal cases against him now. This is despite the stern warning we have heard from the federal judge, who is presiding over the case. Theres new reporting on what trumps plans are. Katelyn polantz has much more on this. Donald trump, as we have talked many times, he says its his First Amendment right and thats why hes going to continue speaking up, but how does a judge see this . The judge has made clear she has the Legal Authority to put some restrictions around donald trump and what he says for two reasons. Because hes getting evidence, hes going to be learning things from the Justice Department investigation. Thats the one were talking about here, the Justice Department investigation, that also might reflect upon what prosecutors have learned in the georgia case that was just charged. But in this case, he could learn things and the judge overseeing that federal case, she does have restrictions on what he can say publicly about what he learns. There are also terms that she has set for his bail. That his legal team acknowledged that would cross a line with his speech. But donald trump, according to our reporting, he has no plans to change his general approach on social media. Hes very frustrated and angry. He directs his ire in a couple different ways. Right now, clearly he has been responding to this new set of charges in georgia, but also over the past couple days, hes had a lot to say specifically about the federal judge overseeing his federal case in washington, d. C. Related to january 6th and the aftermath of the Election Tweeting or posting on social immemedia about her be have heard his legal team generally Still Believes shes a fair judge, that what she has done so far in the case has been essentially what they have asked for and also that they dont actually believe what he is saying, even if hes criticizing people, who that would cross a line into the level of intimidation that is barred by the court. But everyone is going to be watching. Especially the judge and we will also have to wait and see how things are responded to in court in Fulton County, georgia, once that becomes a place he is arraigned as well. That will be interesting as we unfold the new indictments. Its good to see you. Donald trump is the most indicted former president ever. He also has to be the most indicted president ial front runner ever. This morning, new reaction from his opponents. 0 grams of protei. Those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks uuuhhhh. H. 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Right now in the First Federal case against donald trump involving classified documents, Carlos De Oliveira is the last of the three codefendants to be arraigned. He is live for us outside the court. What can you tell us . What did he plea today . Reporter thats exactly right. So the arraignment lasted about six minutes. 56yearold Carlos De Oliveira pleaded not guilty to four count, including conspiracy to obstruct justice and lying to federal investigators. His attorney, his floridabased attorney was with him in court. And they waived the formal reading of the indictment, and they asked for a trial by jury. The 56yearold ais being accusd of scheming with former President Trump to try and delete Surveillance Video from trumps maralago property that was sought by investigators in the Trump Classified documents case. Now according to prosecutors, Carlos De Oliveira asked another trump staffer, someone who works in i. T. , about pergeing the Video Servers after investigators paid a visit to the property back in 2022 to retrieve these classified documents. The indictment, you might recall, alleges that the 56yearold told i. T. Staffer, quote, the boss wants the server deleted. He is facing four charges, including lying to the fbi about helping to move some of these boxes around maralago that contain these classified documents. He left the federal course courthouse here just a few minutes ago with his attorney. This arraignment was relatively quick. It lasted about five to six minutes. He entered a not guilty plea. The judge told his attorney in the next couple week, the Discovery Process would get underway and he was allow eed t leave the Federal Courthouse. He did not say a word to anyone in the courthouse. He talked briefly with his attorney, but he did not say anything to the media, as he came and went from the Federal Courthouse here. I know it was a hus toll get down there had. Appreciate it. So many cases, so little time. Thats sort of behind legal door number two by my count. Lets go back to legal door number four, if you can follow me right now, new this morning, former President Trump says he will hold what hes calling a major News Conference on monday, which is just days before the deadline to surrender to authorities. Alayna treene has the strategy. Donald trump trying to seize the spotlight, its not complex war planning here. Thats right. And first of all, we should note that donald trump is talking about wanting to present a report at that News Conference on monday at his golf club in bedminster. Which he says will prove or have proof of some of the allegations that there was Election Fraud in the 2020 Election Results in georgia. These are claims that donald trump has been peddling for years now. Ask we know they are not true. There were two recounts in georgia. That proved joe biden won the majority of the votes in that state, but donald trump has continued to peddle those false election claims. But what i find interesting about the strategy is that they are not just arguing the same things. Donald trump is a victim of political persecution, that this is election interference. They will a argue that, but they are going to be arguing and dusz sputing the facts of the case. One thing that i know im going to be watching for is how Donald Trumps allies react to this. We did see his defenders on capitol hill immediately rally around him last night after the indictment dropped. They issued statements of support. People like jim jordan and kevin mccarthy, but its one thing to defend him and claim this is a witch hunt and donald trump is a victim of these investigations, but another to standby him and defend the continued false claims that the election was stolen or that the results in georgia were rife with fraud. Exactly what the District Attorney and others are laying out in that indictment. The no, i really won defense, it will be interesting to see what sol of the political allies say about it as well. Alayna treene, great to have you. Kate has some special guests. Very special guests. Ponder this. The Fulton County da says she. S a a trial date in the next six months. If that would happen, a trial would take place just as the republicans start head together polls to vote in the president ial primary. Let me bring in my guests, doug high and commentator and former Democratic State representative bakari sellers. You have unique perspective on this not only as a lawyer, but as i would say a recovering politician. Do you see in the georgia indictment, do you see it as more danger for donald trump legally, either or neither. I think its more dangerous for donald trump. I think you see the behavior, the overt acts that laid out the number of people, even those unindicted, ands this is truly a granular complaint they spent months putting together. You can see the effort and time they used in putting this together. Also its a jury pool hes not going to be very fond of. I dont think hes going to have any issues of fairness shs but hes going to have to deal with a jury pool of his peers in georgia and he does not want to be in atlanta. Also on the back end, theres no mechanism where brian kemp can pardon him. He doesnt have the ability to pardon himself. So i just feel like this is going to be a very uncomfortable situation. And donald trump doesnt deal with black women very well pit mentioned that a few times over on the network. Hes had trouble and now hes going up against fani. And i think the way that she has postured herself and shown that she is not going to back down from him and shown this isnt a partisan battle and accountability, its something that donald trump is probably not going to take very well. Its interesting. The former republican Lieutenant Governor of georgia has been speaking up and speaking out against trumps actions in georgia and beyond for quite some time. I want to play something that he said this morning in reaction to this indictment. Listen to this. Until we all want to stand up and speak as loudly and clearly as we possibly can that the Republican Party needs to use this as a pivot point, were going to continue to be embarrassed and our Campaign Speeches in the Republican Party are going to be from courthouse steps every single day. It sure puts a fine point on what the new reality is. No one is holding their breath. But for the sake of it, why not . Is it just looking at the fact that hes polling 50 amongst Republican Voters . Yeah, and this is the conversation that we have had over the past several years. So many times we have said is this the time when donald trump is going to pivot. The reality is hes never had. And he certainly never did pivot. Thats because all of his messaging from day one up until this morning really reenforces itself. When he says the system is rigged, its rigged against you, its rigged nens me, even though the system isnt rigged, when he gets indicted, it becomes proof to his supporters what he said is true and reenforces it. Those republicans running against him actually back him up and talk about a twotiered system of government, that means donald trump has less reason to pivot. Certainly, what we see donald trump doing at this point is, as he prepares for this press conference on monday, hess basically putting together a george california stanza offense. Thats where hes going in this case. It means that were going to have to prove intent or certainly the state is going to have to prove intent here. Thats harder to do. But when you have so many indictments, it becomes harder legally, but also politically. Republicans have learned lessons from donald trump in georgia. Its cost Us Senate Seats three times about rigged elections. Made it harder for him to win in georgia and certainly will make it harder for him to win georgia in 2024, if hes the republican norminee. Also its a pivot away from donald trump for republicans. You joked to not expect courage for other republicans, especially running to pivot away. Two examples i want to run by you. Asa hutchinson said this this morning. This is another day of challenge for our democracy. I expect voters will make the ultimate decision on the future of our democracy over a year ago i said that Donald Trumps actions disqualified him from ever serving as president again. Those words are more true today than ever before. Chris christie, also running, he was on fox news this morning and said hes uncomfortable with what he called the unnecessary indictment in georgia. Is this what courage looks like . I mean, wheres the bar . This is a really low bar . You have an indicted individual running for abusing processes, for abusing people. The difference, disagree with chris christie. Hes a more than noble and nimble prosecutor. The reason i disagree about the necessity of this indictment is that in georgia unlike florida, unlike washington, d. C. And the jack smith case, you have individual victims that were harmed by the actions of the president of the United States. You have individual victims who if yous look at the montage of characters up there, you have a pirn who is a part of this conspiracy, within the out of her way to harm freeman. You had the president of the United States on a phone call calling her everything but a child of god. This was somebody who is the backbone of our democracy. I think doug would agree the poll workers that we have, the people who watch polls and do this work every election, they are the fabric of our democracy. And he went out there to harm those people. That makes this case a little different. I wanted to just talk about the courage or the lack thereof. If this is what republicans have to display, the bar is excleem trooemly low. Im not asking them to come out and be something they are not, but what im asking of all of these individuals running for president of the United States, tell the truth. If you want to be a Law And Order candidate, there has to be accountability on the other side, even for people on your team. The best kl i can guf you if hunter biden committed a crime, lock him up. Its quite simple. They will not even go that far because they are afraid of the maga base. Just a final thought on that. I think thats true. Thats why we have seen them reebb force Donald Trumps message. When you come to a fork in the road, take it. Republicans have had four forks in the road to take at this point or even 91 if you look at the separate indictments. In any other case or campaign or opponent, they would use this against them. Interest ing. This one we face down now. Its good to see you. Charged for gang members and mobsters, up next, a look at how the fulton County District attorney is using rico to charge donald trump and his 18 codefendants. Meet the team all using chase to keep up with their finances. Smart bankers. Convenient tools. Boom. One bank with the power of both. Chase. Make more of whats yours. Astepro allergy, steroid free allergy relief that starts working in 30 minutes, while other Allergy Sprays take hours. With astepros unbeatably fast allergy relief you can astepro and go please dont go by harry casey, Richard Raymond finch ping please dont go please dont go please dont go please dont go dont goooooo dont go away please dont go gives you access to every game. But terry doesnt have directv. 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It changes your smile and how others smile at you. Clearchoice Network Doctors have changed over 100,000 lives with dental implants, and they can change yours, too. Because a clearchoice day changes every day. Schedule a free consultation. Donald trump and 18 codefendants face racketeering charges under the rico act. The racketeer influenced and corrupt Organization Act was designed to dismantle Organized Crime groups. Georgias statute allows prosecutors and investigators to include several alleged crimes in the indictments. The group indicted in the Georgia Investigation are accused of being part of a broad conspiracy to attempt to overturn the 2020 election in that state. Joining us now is former federal prosecutor, who is also the host of its complicated. Let me ask what you think about the georgia da bringing rico charges in this particular case. I think its a mixed bag. It certainly allows her to charge a wide variety of activity. In the ric oo statute, it is co strewed by courts there, but its a bit of a burden. Its complicated to explain, complicated to put in front of jurors, and a lot of times jurors have trouble seeing something that isnt an Organized Crime as a Criminal Enterprise for purposes of that statute. It allows her to charge a lot more. Shes thrown the kitchen sink at donald trump, but obviously, it make it is a little more challenging as well. People are seeing the picture of all the people indicted, which are 19 people. Do you see this as more difficult with this many people to connect them all for a jury. Absolutely. I tried a lot of criminal cases. The easiest cases to try are one where is you craft a narrow indictment. You have one defendant and you just put on a very simple, straight forward story. The simple story is always more compelling to a jury. More or less what jack smith was trying to do in d. C. This is a different approach. Shes throwing the book at him and also going after everyone. Thats a valid approach. It does mean theres more opportunities for flippers. But just to put a finer point on it, can you imagine a courtroom with 19 different tables of defendants. All of them with their own lawyers trying to get a word in edge wise. Can you imagine all the different counts, all the different crimes being put forward in this trial . Its a lot to throw at trump and his team and he has to defend himself on multiple different fronts, its makes the job more difficult. Theres one person who is unique in this, besides the former president , and that is rudy giuliani, who became famous for using rico against the mob here in new york. What a reversal of fortunes that he is now charged with rico, with participating in racketeering. Can you just give me some sense about whether you think hes uniquely qualified to defend himself, since he knows these cases very well . Its a great question. Thats a really good one. Rudy giuliani, what a fall from grace. Before he became americas mayor and on the cover of time magazine, he was the United States attorney, president ially appointed attorney for the Southern District of new york and was leading the sdny for all sorts of prosecutions. Now hes a criminal defendant, what a change. I actually think it makes things harder for him. Because ultimately at the end of the day, its going to be a lot harder for jurors to find that he has no idea or presume he has no idea whatsoever about whats going on here. They usually hold attorneys to a higher standard. Thats going to make life difficult for him. I do want to ask you because this is an interest to the public. In the federal cases for decades, cameras have not been allowed in the courts. But the state courts are different. And in georgia, theres a possibility that this could be the one case of all four of the cases that has a camera in court from gavel to gavel. What kind of an impact might that make on this particular case . It is going to completely transform this case. I have tried a lot of cases. None of them have had cameras in the courtroom. We have had sketch artists, the gallery pull full of the press, but never have had cameras. If you have cameras, you have to take into account this is going to become not just a circus, but an online phenomenon. Think about the Johnny Depp Trial and how clips of that ended up on social media. How each attorney and witness were turned into mini celebrities and people in the public were talking about them. A trial like this of donald trump over a long period of tierges you can imagine trump and his team are going to be trying to influence public opinion, via what they are doing in court, playing to the viewers at home. I think its going to really have an impact that in had many ways is going to be profound not only in that trial, but on our entire society. Thank you so much for your insight on this. 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That was true for both of the individuals who we have begun to learn about early this morning. Were going to begin with carol hartley, shes 60 years old. We know about her from her sister, who spoke with us a short time ago. She lived downtown in this perfect setting in the heart of town for 36 years. And her family thinks that based on what they have been able to put together about that horrible tuesday a week ago, carol turned around when she was fleeing her home in that apocalyptic scene, she turned around to help a friend. Then she was found dead days later. But her niece writes about excuse me, her sister write this is. My little sister has always looked for the good in people and always helped others. She will be missed by all who knew her for her fun personality, her smile and adventures. So now a 68yearold tried to save his home from burning down. And he wasnt just trying to save his home from burning down, but was trying to save his golden retriever. They both ran for their lives essentially and First Responders would find both franky and sam together when they were able to get into their neighborhood. Thats just a taste of some of the biographies were learning about. We have at least 97 more to go. It is just a sample of the agony that maui is going through today and over the next few weeks. So many stories of loss. Thank you for being there. Appreciate it. Coming up for us, Fani Willis Is Giving donald trump and his 18 codefendants until noon next friday to surrender to authorities. A look at the immediate next steps as the da is looking for a trial in georgia in the next six months. Well be back. To not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. Nows the e time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for yourur business. Okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. Together we provide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. 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