Transcripts For CNNW The 20240704

Donald trump is back at the end of another sad day for the country that he once served as president. He was arraigned for a third time this afternoon. That courthouse is steps away from the u. S. Capitol which was stormed by the violent mob of supporters of donald trump 2 1 2 years ago. It was protected by members of Law Enforcement including from the Dc Metro Police department. It happened also that the former president who is now charged in connection with this attack could safely enter a plea. Inside the courthouse behind me he was taken into custody. He was processed and pled not guilty to the charges against him. A federal judge then set the next court date for the 28th. That is when it is expected a trial date will be set. I am learning that he left here in a sour and dejected mood. He was really angry according to those who spoke to him. He had that processing happening here then he went to the tarmac where he was expected to take questions from reporters who were here. He did not take any questions but instead he departed as they held this umbrella that was handed to him by his codefendant. The former president and had this to say. When you look at what is happening, this is a persecution of a political opponent. It was never supposed to happen in america. This is the persecution of a person that is leading by very substantial numbers in the republican primary. And leading joe biden by a lot. If you cant beat him, persecute him or prosecute him. We cannot let this happen in america. After that he ascended the stairs but i am told that one thing that irked him particularly was during that hearing it lasted about 27 minutes and the Magistrate Judge referred to him as simply mr. Trump. That may not seem odd but he is still referred to by his former title in most places. Evan you were in the room today when he was being processed. Could you tell that he was in a sour and dejected mood . Absolutely. There were times where he was animated and having lots of great conversations with todd blanche and there was something in the paperwork handed over to him that seemed to annoy him. Weve all seen him when he gets irked and certainly i described it earlier as that look you see when he was on the stage with Hillary Clinton and she said something that got under his skin. We can see that face that he has made that goes into so many jokes. There are moments where he clearly looked at jack smith and this is something that was different than the miami arraignment because of where he was sitting and where jack smith was in that courtroom he was basically in direct line of sight and clearly also looked at him with about 20 minutes or so to do this before the judge actually sat on the bench. He sat there and managed to sign paperwork which is standard with the pretrial paperwork that happens. And i certainly think it was a different man than we see for example in the new york arraignment where he was almost affiant. That was not the look that they had here today. At the end it seemed like the only dispute that happened was when the trial date is coming and what we were expecting on August 28th At 10 00 when they are back here. This appears to be a rocket docket. Theyve given the government seven days to report back to her with when they could be going to trial and how long that trial will take. Defense attorneys have another week to do the same. It suggests that she is really trying to move this along quickly. It is impossible to say at this point if it will go to trial before the election. There is more that needs to be understood including additional charges or defendants. There is continued investigation and more witness interviews and we understand this is all in superseding indictment anticipation. One thing i was struck by was who was in the room today. Seven federal judges were in there including judge bos berg who played a key role in deciding what could be secret and what could not be. Is this normal to see seven federal judges in the back . I think there is a lot of significance about the entire proceeding. The capital is right over there and certainly the violence that happened on january 6th, i was walking on the west front of the capital when at the moment officer for known as was being attacked. I walked over here to get away from the mob and for the judges in this courthouse whove been dealing with hundreds of pro trump defendants one of them was being sentenced today. I think there is a reason why they showed up. One of the big things that has happened in this Courthouse Judges have repeatedly said that they believe it is important for the cases to be adjudicated before they send a message. A lot of that carries great significance. And some of those officers were there as well. It really bears witness to several of them that have been blamed publicly for instigating this. They were there and watching it today. These are the real lives that were forever changed. They lay out a case for how the former president had a Pressure Campaign and how it all culminated in the violence on january 6th. He is not charged with anything related specifically to violence but it did all help to inspire what happened. It is notable that they came because this is really the crescendo of the prosecution. Really quickly, one of the strangest persons to see in this courtroom was Evan Corcoran who of course was an important witness. He came in separately from the other lawyers and is still representing the former president. He sat separately from them. And that is a remarkable thing to see. He laughed out loud when we said or when i asked you what your vice woods here. They wanted the Justice Department to do what they were doing and he laughed out loud at that idea. Then they would have to hire their own lawyers. And thats partially what they said with not having his own insurance. And it was a joke but you can certainly see that repeatedly with the former president. Some of those peoples lives are forever changed. They listen to him and ends on this line where they have the legal team and everything that is fighting. And he has everyone back like this. That is a long path indeed. Back with Karen Freeman and alyssa griffin. Congresswoman you are on the January 6th Committee. We talked about this earlier today but you have no doubt that had the January 6th Committee not done the work that it did getting the information that it did, the Justice Department would not have gone forward . It really ignited them to start something maybe they would have eventually started something. My sense was sometimes they get lost in the violence of that day. But this is one of the things that i learned through this committee it was a symptom. And thats really what these indictments are about . Exactly. Think about what he said to the acting attorney general. Say the election was corrupt. And that enough leave the rest to me and the republican congressman. Sue realize what led up here i predicted violence even before it happened. I saw everything leading up to it. It will be driven home to the American People and it was a lot more here. Theres a lot of information not in these indictments. The trial will be fuller and the way jack smith and the Press Conference is they frame this exactly the way the congressman just said. This was not about the Capital Police officers. They were just protecting the building or the people in the building. They were protecting democracy. Really the story and the arc of this indictment and of the trial is going to be an attempt to steal this. Its really remarkably powerful when you think about it. Mike pence will be a witness. There are paragraphs in here that have to be solely based on his account of oneonone conversations he had with the president bolstered by the contemporaneous notes. This will go to trial and donald trump as the former Vice President is in all likelihood going to take the stand against him even while they are running against each other and looking at him as a prosecutor i think he is a great witness. I will leave the political views to you. But i think you did the right thing that day. He is backed up by his notes from the day in question. He is a godfearing man and a lot of people dont take this very seriously. We know the names like the Adams Committee and they all do such a remarkable job showing us what they have to say. We still dont know where mark meadows is but its hard to envision this. Thats how big the stakes are going to be. I dont again i was surprised to see mike pence say these things. It will be surprising if mark meadows is there. Right up until the final moments and then weeks after that as well up there testifying. I think that would be much more damaging. Because people expect that. They dont expect to hear from mark meadows. And i dont want to overstate this but i think discovery is so important here. If i was a judge i would let them hoist on their own petards and have as much discovery as they want. We have so much theory but no evidence. Have as much discovery as you would like because the second they dont allow discovery is the second they will say they arent letting us so that the persecution and auto prosecution. I think this will be tougher than people can understand. Donald trump did something unprecedented but not illegal. But the part that is unprecedented is that there are extra innings that the constitution allows for. Most president s just concede it. Like i didnt get enough votes so i concede. Its not required its just something we do. If you dont concede theyre all of these extra innings and other things that can happen where they have to certify this and that and nobody has contested every single little thing afterwards. But it is legal and he could do that. But you cant cheat in those extra innings. Which is why its hard for people. He had the right to do it the right way. This is going to be hard because everyone is going to want to have a Civics Lesson and go to law school over the next three or four months just to understand what is going on. You could have a democratic president who feels that georgia and mississippi stole the election or suppress the black vote. But you cant cheat and lie and instill violence at the same way. Your completely wrong and it will be extremely complicated for the American People to understand. I think america should really be looking at a big discussion along election day being election day. And then we would know who the winner is at midnight. Its not a week or three days after. People want to know what happened with certainty. When we come out of this one way or another, if we sever public there are some bipartisan fixes that we could agree on the take the complexity and nonsense out. Because it is being weapon eyes. Regardless of what the resolution is, tried and true the country will come together and unite around that decision. I agree that i want to see this done quickly because it is adjudicated ahead of the election and that is in vital public interest. But if they say we need to adjudicate where there is an issue it should let them make the case is that of artie been knocked down and take away what can delegitimize the resolution at the end of this. Youre talking about a former Vice President who is still running against a former president testifying against him with his former Chief Of Staff and senior white house staff. As if we did this enough. Democracy is not defined by bad moments or bad years. Were defined on how we recover from that. The question is however it is adjudicated theres not going to be cool by our after that but are we willing to get back to the standard normals of democracy . If we are we can brag to the world that we made it through a difficult moment. If its all about fundraising thats the biggest problem in politics. Rage raises money. If that continues to go on we have bigger problems. Earlier we were talking about the cameras and federal courtrooms. Who would make that decision ultimately . There are a few layers here. The District Judge can make the initial decision. Ultimately this will have to go to the chief judge of the district. Chief Justice Roberts could approve this from his own high perch though. So i am putting the pressure on and i do not use this platform to get on a soapbox. But this has to be covered with a modern fashion. Not just from a Tv Stand Point. I am saying that yes from a Tv Stand Point of course. But the america people have to see this. If we dont have cameras in the courtroom this is what were looking at. Young reporters running in and out of the courtroom texting us in trying to recount what happens. Two or three hours with a 300 Page Transcript and we will get sketch drawings. It is not 1918. We need to get with it. You have to allow these issues to air and you have to allow them to try each state individually in this case. But it wont matter if no one can see it. If its happening in a Courtroom Transparency is key and for this case and the trial maybe even a conviction they have to see it for themselves. And i think there is a strong argument for cameras in the courtroom for that reason. Weve all been looking for mark meadows who is the missing man and perhaps he will show up in the courtroom. Is coming up next jake and his team pick up the rest of this conversation. A former federal judge will be hearing this case as they sasaid to be on the fast trackc we nevever just see the number. We see the people. 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We should note that it is possible to show this is basically the atlanta area in there doing investigations to flip georgia was seven states and more . We have to re compartmentalize this. Remember this is state prosecution. Theres been a special grand jury and theyve already had meetings in terms of those that they are working to report and manage the actual criminal grand jury we are actually accustomed to. She said by September 1st we will know whether or not she does intend to file any charges. Note that a judge is here. It will be curious to see what they have to say. There was a School Backpack donation drive she hosted in the county. She talked about not being pleased with all the decisions or what they might be but not showing your hand as to what they are. In the end it would likely be a fourth bite at someone who previously loved the big apple. We should note that one of the biggest and best pieces of evidence that they have with jack smith, is that they can honestly think Lindsey Graham was there and they can thank her for this. She did call the secretary of state of georgia Brad Roethlisberger and said something he later accused him of that he denied. He thought Lindsey Graham had said can you carry out this corrupt activity and they denied ever saying it. So they learned a lesson about dealing with washington politicians. Record your phone calls. When donald trump called that Conversation Weather was roethlisberger or his attorney or Chief Of Staff, somebody hit record. How important and damning is that recording which we all have now heard . They shed light with the conspiracy to apply pressure to State Officials to change these Election Results in the states. Thats one more than they need. And it definitely is not subtle. Today made a comment about a parallel . It was very similar to the posting untruth social saying he only gave one more indictment to win the election. What is impressive however as you get more than just that quote. They show how over the course of a very long conversation he basically presented roethlisberger all of his theories about how fraud had taken place in Fulton County and other places around georgia. The associates had direct factual responses to each of them completely refuting the claim that thousands of dead people voted in georgia. Each claim they knocked down and the demand to find the votes only comes after every one of his pieces of evidence of fraud have been dismissed by roethlisberger and his crew. Then he makes the find the 11,000 votes statement. The next day he goes out and publicly says i asked Brad Roethlisberger all these questions and he didnt have answers. Which the according proved he had competent answers to each of those points. The next day donald trump is out there saying yes. And he did not know of course that he was being taped. Sometimes he does know and still disagrees with what is being said. But that is key and goes to this broader issue of him willfully lying and in that instance willfully lying about a phone call that he had had with roethlisberger. So it really does show his lies to be knowing and wellformed. Anyone that wants to read at home is on page 12 and it goes into quite some detail. One of the individuals who is on the ground in georgia and text donald trump to tell them the Georgia Election officials such as Gabriel Stirling are cited here but not by name referred to as the Chief Of Staff. In jeopardy that is who is mark meadows . Yes. And it is interesting because earlier today we were talking to mark short and he refers to that interview this is what he had to say. This is who brought the random theories of what the Vice President could do by organizing this meetings with members of congress and what have you. He was a leader in much of these efforts that the president did pursue trying to convince the Vice President of this magical authority. The fact that he is not mentioned i think would be want to say in light of so many other coconspirators there must be some level of testimony they have. And what he meant there was the fact that mark meadows was the ringleader in his current conversation of this conspiracy but is not listed or even insinuated or suggested as a Co Conspirator would suggest that mark meadows is cooperating. No question about that. This is something we have been speculating about for quite some time. We looked at the indictment the other day and Congress Member off grin also said that meadows knows everything just a short time ago. Lets just remember that he was in every meeting not just georgia. He brought rock on republican congressman in and unlike donald trump he likes to text. We were very lucky and given the Text Messages that the January 6th Committee received. They are extraordinary. I am told there over 1000 more in addition to other documents. I do believe that from what my sources say about jack smith and the Special Counsel case, mark meadows has a lot to offer. And we should note that on December 23rd the day after mark meadows personally observed the Signature Verification Process at the Georgia Civic Center he notified trump and State Officials that were conducting themselves in exemplary fashion and would find fraud if it existed. How would jack smith know that mark meadows since that text message . Okay. Thank you very much. What we know about judge tonya chuck and who once rejected Donald Trumpmps legal argument in the case involvlving white house records and the January 6th Committee. The chase Ink Business Premier Card is made for people like sam, who make everyday products, designed smarter. Like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. Oh, genius for re breakthroughs like that i need a breakthrough card. 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Astepro allergy, steroid free allergy relief that starts working in 30 minutes, while other Allergy Sprays take hours. With astepros unbeatably fast allergy relief you can astepro and go new Double Chicken chopped salads. The new summer family meal. Starting at 24. Only at el pollo loco. The judge we mentioned earlier presiding over the January 6th Trial is not present today. Judge tonya is a jamaican native whos been on the court since 2014. She has presided over dozens of cases and also rejected the former president attempts to block the House Select Committee from accessing hundreds of pages from his white house quoting in the ruling the president s are not kings and the plaintiff is not president. They say they want a speedy trial. The slow walk the schedule so what are the odds this will happen before the election . It is hard to know. I would say this is a fairly complicated case. And therefore it would take a not unreasonable amount like a year to year and a half. The judge will have to resist the pressure to either hasten it improperly or let it stretch out the way the former president wants it to. What are the biggest complications that you see . If the attorneys want to go statebystate and relitigate all of the Election Theories and conspiracies . Is in the preponderance of evidence what jack smith already has . They are the ones putting on the case now. It is not a case of relitigation. The question is what the data is. Imagine how bid the January 6th Report is. How much discovery will be here . I think the Special Counsel tried to narrow this as much as possible like they did before but it is still a lot of data. And that will still have to be turned over and contested. In addition your previous speakers said the issue is not who is mentioned in the indictment. It is also the issue of who is not indicted. Which is virtually the entire white house staff. When witnesses are disclosed we will see how many people have cooperated and there will be witness statements from them at the appropriate time. There could be grand jury reports as well. In order to make sure that he was dotting his eyes and crossing his tease he has probably generated a great deal of information which will have to be turned over at some point to the defense. So that will legitimately complicate the timing of all of this. We were talking about the cameras in the court which federal courts do not have. Do you believe there is an important case to be made that there should be cameras . Ive been saying there should be cameras in the court since i was a lawyer. I testified in favor of cameras in the entire Federal Judicial Conference. Putting aside Donald Trumps case the counters that they would be disruptive bearing in mind the way they were 40 years ago that is not the case now. State courts have had cameras for nearly 40 years. This case seems to be that the public should see it. The problem is this is precisely the case in which the Federal Judicial Conference will probably back off but there should be cameras. There is no question about that. Theyve previously presided over a number of cases in some cases they were harsher sentences than prosecutors were asking for. Do you read anything into that on how she may handle this particular case . I dont really see anything other than the fact that she understood the seriousness and if you recall other judges would say the demonstrators and insurrectionist or not dangerous. I think she understood the larger picture which is not just what they did do but what they came close to doing. And was really dealing with them harshly. I dont think there is a way to predict this because this case is unique. We are all trying to predict what is going to happen here but it is unique. We appreciate your time today. Thank you. 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Hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here. You know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. I made a horrible mistake. Go to your happy price priceline so much of what we know about the actions of donald trump and his State Of Mind leading up to and during the january 6th insurrection we know because of testimony and evidence it was first gathered by the select House Committee on january 6th. Ultimately they decided to refer him to the Justice Department to face criminal charges. That was almost 8 months ago. I am joined by former congresswoman Stephanie Murphy who was a democrat from florida. Thank you for joining us after all of your work investigating this attack. Today we saw some measure of accountability. The former president was under arrest blocks away from the u. S. Capitol. What was it like for you having worked so hard on this committee to finally see it . It is great to be with you. I am so proud of the work that the select committee did as we did work to investigate the actions that led up to and ultimately activities that happened on january 6th. We permit presented that to the court of Public Opinion and today what we see is the beginning of accountability in the court of law for the former president. A lot of the indictment mirrored the work that we did on the select committee but i was really grateful to see that the Department Of Justice and the Special Prosecutor were able to get testimony that we were not able to secure as a select committee as some witnesses pled the fifth or just did not show up before us or even invoked other privileges. That information has proven based on the bits that we have seen in the indictment so far to be truly revealing. It does seem to have come from his then Chief Of Staff mark meadows i dont know how much of the programming you have been watching but earlier today, i did interview mark short to the top aid for Vice President pentz. He referred to meadows as a ringleader. Saying he helped to run this whole conspiracy. He also noted that since he was not referenced in any way as a coconspirator in the indictment it says that meadows is cooperating as a witness. Is that also your conclusion . I certainly hope that mark meadows has decided to cooperate. Because he does know an awful lot about what was going on in the white house and about the conversations that were being had. If you was a true patriot he wouldve cooperated with the select committee. I am grateful now though if he is departed meaning and providing this necessary information. I am wondering if there is anything that you personally have learned that you did not know from the indictment . I think that the perspective of the Vice President s was really interesting in the indictment. In particular the fact that the president was pressuring him to unilaterally declare the election in his favor. That he complained about the Vice President. I think for the former Vice President that may be a Badge Of Honor. Have someone like the former president say that he is too honest. But it also indicates that the president did understand what he was asking him to do was dishonest. I think he does where it is a Badge Of Honor because they are saying that. But this is all coming to and a half years after that horrible day in january and eight months since your panel wrapped up your own investigation. Sending the criminal referrals to the Justice Department. Do you think that the Special Counsel did wait too long to bring charges . Or do you think mayor garland waited too long to assign the Special Counsel . What weve seen is that when people try to hold the former president accountable and fail, it just makes him stronger. And in this instance where its regarding charges of trying to subvert our democracy, we must not fail. Former congresswoman, democrat of florida, good to see you again. Thanks so much for joining us. Great to see you. Next were going to discuss the strength of Special Counsel jack smiths case against donald trump with someone whos witnessed a Special Counsel investigation from the inside. Stay with us. Rry . That was then. And look at me now. Youll nevever truly forget migraine. But qulipta® reduces attacks, making zeromigraine days possible. Its the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. To help give you that forgetyouget migraine feeling. Dont take if allergic to qulipta®. Most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. Learn how abbvie could help you save. Qulipta®. 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He actually served as a deputy Special Counsel in the prosecution of Scooter Libby. And she joins me now. Thank you being here outside with us. What is it like to be someone like a jack smith in the room 15 feet away from the person youre prosecuting whos also criticizing you on social media . Well, i dont think you can compare prosecuting Scooter Libby with donald trump. I mean, everyone says its unprecedented for a reason. I mean its really a unique experience. Plus, when were doing that case in 2005, i think, there wasnt any social media to speak of. And we didnt have a president or a Republican Party that was attacking us constantly. I know there was criticism, but it was kind of like par for the course at the time, so nothing like and certainly no threats that are being made now. Yeah, but there was a lot of pressure. Obviously it was a very incredibly high profile case. Do you think this is a strong case and could it end in the conviction of a former president potentially . Absolutely. Why do you think i have a lot of confidence this case will end in a convictions assuming it gets to trial. And thats that is if it goes to trial before the election and donald trump doesnt become president , if hes reelected, this case is going to go away. You sound skeptical it could get to trial before the election. I think its going to bea real challenge. This is a huge case. Its like seven mini trials for each state. Theres a great many witnesses, and theres going to be a tremendous amount of discovery. I think people are underestimating the amount of witnesses that were likely interviewed, plus all the transcripts from the January 6th Committee, which i would imagine jack smith has obtaped in the course of his investigation. All of that gets turned over to the defense, and they have an obligation to go through all of it. What about the idea trump was posting about on the way here, which is he thinks its an unfair venue, and his attorney said theyre to ask for a venue change including west virginia. It is not going to happen in my opinion. Why not . Well, the events happened just down the street from here. This is the proper venue for it, and this judge i think will be able to find jurors they say are going to be fair. Theyre going to know about the defense, but the question is have they made up their mind, have they concluded about the guilt . And amazing enough there are people not immersed in this stuff the same way viewers are, cnn, msnbc, and fox news are who are just they havent lived this every day and they dont read about it every day and they havent concluded it. Ia know, i talked to bill barr last night, trumps former attorney general. We talk about the First Amendment and trump was exercising his right to free speech, and the other was he was relying on advice of counsel. This is what bill barr thought of that. I dont think his defense of advice of counsel is going to go forward because i think the president would have to get on the stand and subject himself to cros crossexamination in order to raise that, and hed also have to waive attorneyclient privilege. And what would happen if he got on the stand . I think i think it would not come out very well for him. Do you think it would hurt him . Oh, yes. Yes. Do you agree hed have to get on the stand to make that defense . Id have to agree with that, that i dont think he can put a defense of counsel defense because he would have to testify to say i was relying on this information and thats why i did what i did. I dont think john eastman could testify because hes a coconspirator. I think he has a great deal of exposure and i dont think hes going to be testifying. Its something to bandy about to the press now thats going to be our defense, but i dont think theyre going to put it on from an evidentiary standpoint. I dont think those arguments will fly in court. I dont think judge chutkan, a very experienced junl is going to be persuaded thats a viable defense. Because essentially if he got on the stand hed have to be cross examined. He isnt going to testify. He wont testify. Hes never going to put himself in a position where he can be cross examined by prosecutors in a courtroom. Yeah, peter, remarkable to have you here. Obviously you prosecuted Scooter Libby inside the courthouse behind us. Trump pardoned him. Its a very full circle moment and were grateful you joined us today. Thank you very much. Its been quite a day here, of course. It is only the first of many. As we learned today there are many more court dates to come and the news also continues. I want to turn things over right now to Cnn Primetime with wolf blitzer and laura co