Transcripts For CNNW The 20240704

And for trump, Arraignment Number three is tomorrow. How he is preparing for the legal fight of his life and the judge overseeing it has already delivered this line, president s are not kings. Could it be the most important case in u. S. History . One of the nations top Election Experts says that democracy is on the line in the United States versus donald trump. Im kaitlan collins, and that is the source. Donald trump will be arraigned in less than 24 hours from now right here in washington, d. C. , the first time for crimes that he allegedly committed as president against his country. He is expected to appear in court at 4 00 p. M. Eastern in person we are told, and today his former Vice President and now 2024 challenger and a critical witness in this case had a lot more to say about the january 6th indictment and his former boss role. Anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president of the United States. It wasnt just that he asked for a pause. The president specifically asked me and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes, essentially to overturn the election. And im joined now by the former trump Attorney General bill barr, his first reaction since we have seen these new charges, and thank you so much for being here, mr. Attorney general. You have now read through this indictment. Do you think its a strong case . I think its a legitimate case. I think unlike the document case, its going to have issues of proof. Its a more complicated case. And i think there are some downsides to it. I think there are reasons not to bring it. I said before im a little concerned about the Slippery Slope of criminalizing legitimate political activity. Im worried about moving in that direction, and im also worried about bringing this case and the divisiveness it will bring by highlighting the double standard. Because at the same time this case is being brought in the department appears to have dropped the blow on the hunter biden investigation. Its going to be very hard to persuade many republicans that this isnt political. Well talk about the hunter biden investigation. But when you do look at the indictment, do you think its something you would have brought . I think i dont know if i would have approved the indictment, but in the sense i may have exercised discretion and not gone forward with the case. Im also concerned about having this case going on during the election and diverting peoples attention from the issues in the election. Im also worried about what the impact is if there are acquittals during the campaign. But as a legal matter, i dont see a problem with the indictment. I think its not an abuse. The department of justice is not acting to weaponize the department by proceeding against the president for a conspiracy to subvert the electoral process. Which is what trumps attorneys are saying, and theyre also saying he was just exercising his First Amendment right here. Do you think thats a valid argument in your view . No, i really dont think thats a valid argument. As the indictment says, theyre not attacking his First Amendment right. He can say whatever he wants. He can even lie. He can tell people that the election was stolen when he knew better. But that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. All conspiracies involve speech, and all fraud involves speech. So free speech doesnt give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy. The other thing that theyre arguing, including john lauro, trumps new attorney to me last night is they were simply asking the former Vice President mike pence to pause on the counting of votes. Mike pence pushed back on that today, said thats not what they were asking him to do. Lets be clear on this point. It wasnt just that he asked for a pause. The president specifically asked me and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes, which would have resulted in the issue being turned over to the House Of Representatives and literally chaos would have ensued. How strong of a witness do you think hell be against trump if he is called . The Vice President . I think hell be very strong witness. He has the highest integrity. He has behaved with dignity and propriety all the way through this. You agree with him they werent just asking him to pause the counting on the votes, they were asking him to overturn the election . I wasnt around. But what i read in the indictment, there was a discussion around the president himself stressed that he would prefer him to just accept the votes in the panels that were protrump, that it wasnt a question of just buying time. The other argument that were hearing is about who trump was listening to at this time. Trumps attorney john lauro said this of john eastman. Mr. Trump had the advice of council, mr. Eastman, who is one of the most respected constitutional scholars in the United States giving him advice and guidance. He is citing john eastman as this constitutional scholars, but we know in the indictment it says trump was ignoring your advice, that of other Senior Justice Department officials, pat cipollone, the white house council, the director of national intelligence. Is it a credible defense to say he was listening to john eastman . I dont think that dog is going to hunt, as you say. First as to people who had some knowledge of whether or not there was fraud, everyone was telling him that the election was not stolen by fraud. And then as to the issue of what he could do legally at that point, he went through all the lawyer he wouldnt listen to all the lawyers in the department in various departments or the white house that had those responsibilities or his campaign. He would search for a lawyer who would give him the advice he wanted. But im not even sure you would characterize what eastman said as advice. It will be interesting to see, but i interpret some of what he was saying essentially was well, you know, its unclear here, and you can make this argument. Im not saying the courts would accept it, and so forth. And you act on that at your own hazard. Also, i dont think this defense of advice of council is going to go forward, because i think the president would have to get on the stand and subject himself to crossexamination in order to raise that, and he would have to waive attorneyclient privilege. And what would happen if he got on the stand . I think it would not come out very well for him. You think it would hurt him . Oh, yes. Yes. Why do you think that . Well, because i think hed be subject to very skilled crossexamination, and i doubt he remembers all the different version of events he has given over the last few years. Do you think he knew that he lost the election . Do i personally believe that . At first i wasnt sure, but i have come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election, and now what i think is important is the government has assumed the burden of proving that. The government in their indictment takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election wasnt stolen through fraud. And theyre going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. Which is a high bar of course. Its a high bar. Now that leads me to believe that they were only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this. You think jack smith has more . Oh, yes. I would believe he has a lot more, and thats one of the things that impressed me about the indictment. It was very spare, and there were a lot of things he could have said in there, and i think there is a lot more to come, and i think they have a lot more evidence as to President Trumps State Of Mind. You said youve come around to the idea that you do think he knew that he lost. Why have you come around to that . Number one, comments from people like bannon and stone before the election saying that he was going to claim it was stolen if he was falling behind on election night. And that that was the plan of action. I find those statements very troubling. And then you see that he does that on election night, and then the evidence that has come out since that the press reports and the indictment and his lack of curiosity as to what the actual facts were. Thats my personal opinion. Thats my personal opinion. Well see if the government can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. You spoke to the january 6th congressional committee. Have you talked to jack smiths investigators . Im not going to get into that. Im not going to get into that. Okay. You came out on december 1. You were there on election night, and you said that the Justice Department had uncovered no voting fraud on a scale of what would have changed the outcome of the election. Right. When you look back on that time period from the election to december 1, do you ever wish you had come out sooner and spoken up sooner . Not at all. Because if i had come out and shot from the hip without doing some due diligence, and making sure i understood what the claims were and that i knew the facts, and if i turned out to be wrong without doing due diligence, i think that would have been a disaster for the country. Due diligence . Well, the allegations kept changing from day to day, and were very frequently specific, you know. A truck driver took so many ballots from here to there. And you interviewed that truck driver even . I didnt. But the department did. The department did. We were chasing down all these things. And i wanted to make sure that the major allegations were looked at and that i had a good sense of what happened. I also wanted to analyze the votes themselves and see, you know, how the Voting Patterns were in those states. Not only did we not find any fraud of that magnitude, but in the states when you actually looked at the votes, they were very clear to me why he lost. He ran as the weakest person on the republican ticket. Like in pennsylvania, he came in 60,000 votes below the republican ticket. So he is losing republican votes. He lost at least 75,000 republican votes in arizona. And so to me there was no these were the female voters in the suburbs that were republicans. These were the independents in the suburbs that ordinarily would vote republican. So i didnt think there was a mystery as to why he lost. Because it was in areas that he was underorm performing with. Right. His attorney predicts it would take nine months to a year to try this case. Do you think a good solid defense team could get it done before the 2024 election . I think it all depends on the judge. And i think my impression is this judge may want to move it along. And so theyll have to be ready to try the case when she is ready to try the case. But do you think the American People was it in the American Peoples best interest to have this adjudicated before the 2024 election happens, before they cast their ballots . Well, the Paramount Question has to be fairness to the defendants, fairness of the process. And i think it goes i think there are arguments to be made both ways as to whether it should be first or whether it should come afterwards. Of course, if he is elected president , then coming afterwards would be meaningless. Because you believe he tried to essentially get rid of it or pardon himself. Do you think this entire indictment for january 6th could have been avoided . Is this something of his own making . Yeah. You know, i dont think that this is an issue of his victimization. I think he brought this on himself. This is one of the reasons i oppose him for the republican nomination, because he has this penchant for engaging in these reckless acts that create these calamitous situations, and then undercut the cause he is supposed to be leading. And that is a perfect example of it. All right, mr. Attorney general, stand by. I want to ask you a lot more questions. I know you thoughts on the Documents Case. I want to ask you about that comment you made about opposing him for the 2024 election. Well be back with more to come with Attorney General bill barr, whether or not he sees a fourth indictment following this third indictment. He once said trump is toast if half the documents allegations are true. What does he think now that more charges have been added since that prediction . So have we. Thats why new Dove Body Washsh now has 24hour renewing Micro Moisture for continuous carare. New dove body wash. Change is beautitiful. Im jayson. Im living with hiv and im on cabenuva. 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Side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. Need to get your a1c down . You may pay as little as 10 per prescription. Back now with the former Attorney General bill barr. And since we have last spoken on this program, trump is now facing a Superseding Indictment. Yes. In the Documents Case, which means more charges have been added. You thought it was a serious case before. Now that these other charges have been added, do you believe its Even Stronger now . Oh, yeah, its definitely stronger. The allegation of another kind of coverup and Obstruction Attempt after getting a subpoena for the Surveillance Tapes then entering into a conspiracy to delete the Surveillance Tapes. That certainly buttresses the governments case. And its also quite typical in this sense, you know. These two individuals, nauta and carlos. Carlos are dragged into this things. Their lives turned upside down by trump to pursue, you know, this caper of his. He leaves in his wake, ruined lives like this. The people who went up to capitol hill, these individuals, many of the people who served him in government that got sucked into things, and he just leaves all this carnage in his wake. Do you think he cares about that . No, he doesnt care than. Loyalty is a oneway street for him. And in many ways, these two people down in maralago represent many republicans who feel that they have to man the ramparts and defend this guy no matter what he does and go along with him. I think they have to be careful or theyre going end up as part of the carnage in his wake. Thats what your message is to those people that do feel that sense of loyalty to him . I think we all have primary loyalty to the constitution of the country, not to any particular individual, and at some point trying to defend the indefensible really demeans you. He always said he had a right to declassify the documents or take them with him. If he really thought that, why would he ask someone to delete security footage. Yeah, but the whole thing. If he really thought he had the right to have the documents, there were umpteen ways for him to assert that when he was asked by the government and during that 1 1 2year period. He never did. He never asserted it in a lawful way. What did he do . He obstructed the subpoena, both subpoenas. You said before that at its core this is an Obstruction Case because he gave the documents back, he would have never been indicted. But what do you say to republicans, and this includes 2024 gop candidates who say its unfair for him to be prosecuted for that. They say its a process crime. Its hog a grand jury subpoena asking for the do documents and he puts his lawyer in a position of making a full statement that a full search was made when he knew it wasnt, and in fact prevented the lawyer from making it. I mean, thats the essence of obstruction. Obstruction of a grand jury. It doesnt get more serious than that. What would you say, he just brought on two new attorneys in april, todd blanche and john lauro. Given whats happened with other attorneys heing has had, what is your advice to other attorneys . Do you have any . Get a lot of insurance. Theyll be spending a lot of time themselves at some point before grand juries or answering questions or as witnesses in investigations. He is spending a lot of money on political fees. His Political Action committee spent more than 40 million on political fees already this year. What do you make of his political supporters giving him money to his campaign, and he then uses that for his legal fees and his codefendants legal fee. Yeah, i find that sort of nauseating. This guy claims to be a multibillionaire and he goes out and raises money from hardworking people, small donors, and tells them this is to defend america and, you know, to cake of the he didnt provide any significant support during the 22 elections. And a lot of this money seems to be going to his legal fees. You just mentioned earlier you dont believe in the Weapons Inspection of the Justice Department. Thats something we often hear from members of congress who were loyal to him after he gets indicted in hes cases. Does that undermine trust in the department that you used to lead . Does what undermine it . When republicans come out and say this is a twoteared justice system. I do think there is a double standard. I think its something from whom . I think that the department tends to go far more aggressively after republican or allegations of republican wrongdoing than democrat. And ive seen it myself. Ive lived through it. Ive seen it. Now its not as pervasive as is represented. And its not automatic. And i think there is still many, many great prosecutors in the department who can check their politics and be fair to whoever it is regardless of their politics. But i do think there are some political actors in the department. And im glad that Chairman Comer is conducting his investigation. Speaking of that, one thing weve heard is that you mentioned hunter biden earlier. David weiss, The Trump Appointed u. S. Attorney handling that investigation, did you ever consider making him Special Counsel before you left office . Yes, i did consider it. I felt that a couple of things. One, i didnt want to set a precedent on the way out the door of appointing a Special Counsel to investigate essentially the children of the incoming president and the family of the incoming president. I think that would become sort of de rigueur and it would be a bad development. Second, i didnt think there was a basis for me to do it because our department didnt have a conflict of interest. It had to be left up to garland for him to make that decision, for his department. He had to determine whether he had a conflict and he should bring a Special Counsel. And if i preempted that decision, i thought it would give them the basis for saying this was a political move and were going terminate him. Were just going kick it out. It would have given them cover i think and the investigation. I believe head would keep the investigation going and keep weiss in place, and he did. Trump has promised if he gets back into office, he is very blatant about this, using the Justice Department to go after his political opponents. Do you worry that he would weaponize it if he was back in office . Absolutely. And thats why i think its so ironic all these people are getting huffy about Weapons Inspection weaponization, which they should, because we cant go tit for tat. But trump, as you say he very clear about it. I think there is no question that he believes these institutions should be used to go after his enemies. I want to ask you more about that. Do you mind sticking around for a few minutes if we took a quick break . No, i dont mind. All right. Well be back in just a moment with trumps former Attorney General bill barr. His first interview since the former president was indicted a second time on federal charges and ahead of his arraignment here in washington tomorrow. Well be right back. Youre making the most of every hour of your life. Except the hours that youre sleeping. So why d do we leave so much Untapped Potential on the table . This is a next level bed, for a next level you. My Circadian Rhythm is kicking your Circadian Rhythms butt its not a competition. I know, but im still winning so, it is a competition. Save up to 500 on the new sleep number® smart bed. Plus, free Home Delivery when you add an adjustable base. 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Im back now with former Attorney General bill barr. We were just talking about Special Counsels. And one thing that i think is glossed over because so much is said by trump every day are his attacks on jack smith. He calls him deranged. He called him a crackhead once. He implied that he had something to two the cocaine that was found at the white house. When you hear those comments that he makes the person who is prosecuting him, what do you think . You know, to me its amazing that you read through the indictment and his behavior in that indictment. And its nauseating. Its despicable behavior. Whether its criminal or not, someone who engaged in that kind of bullying about a process that is fundamental to our system and to our selfgovernment shouldnt be anywhere near the oval office. And for him to be attacking a prosecutor who is investigating that with all the epithets and so fort that he has no basis for as far as i can tell is ridiculous. Now he is an aggressive prosecutor. Hes the kind of prosecutor in my view that if he thinks someone has committed a crime, he homes in on it and really goes to try to make that case. There is no question hes aggressive. But i do not think he is a partisan actor, he personally. You think he has treated trump fairly . I dont know whether. From what you observed, i guess. From what ive observed. I dont know him, but i know a lot of republican lawyers who have worked with him over the years and they tell me he is a tough hardnosed prosecutor, but he is not a partisan prosecutor. You talked about the allegations that are in here. The allegation of subverting legitimate american votes, subverting democracy, trump is still talking about that. If you watch any of his Campaign Speeches or anything, now that this case is going forward, theyll actually see the claims of fraud that he has been making for two and a half years, three years now. Here we are two and a half years, and still they havent come forward with any evidence. And in fact as the indictment puts forward, you have giuliani saying yeah, we have a lot of theories, but we dont have any evidence. Thats a pretty big admission. They wanted to overturn the election, and they had no evidence of outcome determinative fraud. Can you just walk us through and remind us what it was like when you resigned . I know there was a meeting when you came out and said there is no evidence of fraud that could change the election you actually had to go to the white house that day. And you told the January 6th Committee that you were taken into the oval office study. Trump was in there. You said he was so mad, he wouldnt even look at you. Its in my first page of my book, a blowbyblow account of that. But he was berating me on a number of things. And i explained the various allegations of fraud that he was making and why they were bogus. And then he started saying he was disgusted with the fact i didnt indictindict comey. I know youre disappointed. If you want me to resign, ill resign. And he said accepted. And i went walking out and he sent two lawyers running after me to bring me back. I didnt go back. I said well talk about it in the morning. He said he didnt want me to leave. But i resigned on December 14th any way. You recently told nbc news youre asked if you would support trump. And you said youll jump off that bridge when you get to it. Uhhuh. Are you ready to jump off that bridge . I have to wait to see what the situation is, and ill pick my poison at that point. So you arent ready to rule out if he is the no, maam nay you wont vote for him. Im just saying ill pick my poison at some point. By the way, i also believe that biden is unfit for office. Well, youre a lifelong republican. I dont think thats a surprise that you dont think biden is fit for office. There are democrats that i think are honorable people, and his policies i dont think are extreme and so forth. But i think biden has turned the Keys Of The Kingdom over to a radical progressives, and in terms of his personal ethics, i think there is some red flags there that i think people should be paying attention to. I dont think he is morally superior necessarily to trump. But i dont think people would be surprised to hear you say that you dont think biden should be president. But i think people would be surprised that you wont say that about trump given ive said i dont think he should be near the oval office. But that you wouldnt vote for him in 2023. Hes called you a coward, lazy, gutless pig, rino, all of these things. Some other ones. Go ahead. Thats just a handful of the ones that i pulled. What do you say to people who look at what you say about trump, your criticisms of him that you dont think he belongs near the oval office, but that you dont rule out voting for him in 2024. Because my view is that i have to wait and see what the entire record is, what comes out and so forth. But my view is that if you feel that one of two people is going to be president , in other words there is no third option. One of two people are going to be president , then at this point you have to do your soulsearching as to which one you think would do least harm to the country. And thats the analysis that i would do. Would you ever vote for a Third Party Candidate . Thats kind of something floating around. Its hypothetical. I would not throw my vote away on someone who had no chance of winning just so i could feel morally virtuous and say well, at least i didnt vote for him. My view is i want to participate in a decision. If one of two is going to make it, i want to participate in that decision. If there was a third party that actually had a chance and they were consistent with my philosophy, or superior to the other two, i would consider that. Trump is surging in the polls. We dont know yet the effect that this indictment or potential trials could have on it. But right now he is miles ahead of his other challengers. You served in the bush administration. You served for trump. Youre a lifelong republican. What does it say about the Republican Party that he is doing so well right now in the polls. Actually, i think a lot of those poms are misleading. I think before the indictment by bragg, he was hemorrhaging support. His numbers were dropping very quickly, and desantis was going up very quickly. And then the brag indictment hit, which was a political hit job, and that seems to have changed the dynamics for a while. But i think that same underlying dynamic is there. And i saw a poll today saying that 46 of people who say they are for trump now are willing to change. So i think between 40 and 50 of his support are people who right now are saying yeah, trump, partly because he issin attack. But i think as things go forward, theyll be more likely to change. And youre speaking out a lot. Not a lot, but you make your decision to come and do interviews like youre doing this one here tonight. Is that so trying to make sure trump is not the nominee . Yes. Because i think the Republican Party is a great opportunity. When you look at our states like florida, georgia, virginia, we have conservative governors who are winning substantial victories, broadening the party, bringing people in. And i think that can be done on the national level. By any of our candidates, but trump. Trump has already shown that he cannot forge that kind of decisive victory at the national level. He is a threetime loser, and i think he will clearly lose again on the national level. Attorney general bill barr, thank you for joining us in studio tonight. Thanks. With all of these insights. Thanks. Well get reaction to that interview and much more as trump is preparing for his next arraignment here in washington tomorrow, next. You tried. Limiting when it was okay. No tech behind closed doors. 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It was his first interview since trump was indicted yesterday. Of course his second round of federal charges, this time in relation to his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. We asked barr, someone who is obviously the head of the Justice Department when trump was in office, resigned after the 2020 election happened, if he thought that trump really knew that he lost the election. This is what barr said. At first i wasnt sure, but i have come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election. Now what i think is important is the government has assumed the burden of proving that. The government in their indictment takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election wasnt stolen through fraud. Avnt and theyre going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. Evan perez, you covered the Justice Department when bill barr was there. To hear him say he now does think that trump did know he lost the election, what did you make of that . Well, look, like he said, i think a lot of people who worked with the former president who were there during that period were really kind of not sure, right . And certainly i think some of the people who were involved in some of these discussions i think believed that the former president would pass a Lie Detector Test because he is that delusional about what happened. One of the things i think the former Attorney General is getting at is the prosecutors have a ton of evidence. There is the things he mentioned, the roger stone, the steve bannon, there is a whole idea that they had concocted this whole plan that if he fell behind, he was going to declare victory and claim fraud. So there is a ton of circumstantial evidence. And people get convicted every day in this country on evidence that, you know, not getting into peoples State Of Mind, not getting into their heads. I think he is on to something there. It is a high burden of proof as barr was saying there. But trumps mindset and his intent here is at the key of this indictment we got yesterday. And looking at that and bill barr noticeably not saying anything when i asked if he had spoken to jack smith. What did you make of that . It was very interesting. You asked the question directly. He would not answer whether or not he had been interviewed by the Special Counsels team or whether he had testified before the grand jury. Can we just play that moment . I just want for people who may have missed, lets just show that moment before we continue. Have you talked to jack smiths investigators . Im not going to get into that. Im not going to get into that. Awkward silence. So here is the thing. Because bill bar was Attorney General until he resigned on December 14th of 202010, which means that he was there actually a lot of activity leading up to things. Leading up to january 6th after the election. And so he had a lot of information i think that he would have observed. I think it is most likely that he has spoken to the Special Counsels team. And i dont know what our reporting says, but its possible he testified as well. Let me say real quick. One reason why bill barr went out publicly and made that statement about there had been no fraud, there was no evidence of fraud is because he saw this coming. He believed that once he left, donald trump was going to pressure the Justice Department, and he wanted to make sure he was on the record publicly. Bill barr doesnt do things like that. He doesnt go out there. You know him well. He doesnt go out there publicly like that unless there is a particular reason, and he did it because he knew the former president would do that. And if i were jack smiths investigators, thats a question i would have asked. And then he got out of the administration before things really got close to before january 6th happened. But david urban you also know the former Attorney General well. And you know trump well too. He was blunt in his assessment of trump on the Documents Case and the fact that his two new codefendants now, and he kind of described it as this path of carnage that has been left behind him. The superseding. That Superseding Indictment kind of got a little bit of press, but then got overwhelmed by this. And i think thats much more damning and much more problemsome for republicans to kind of support when you have is shh emoji, and a lot of smoking guns in that case that average people if youre not really paying attention you can get and see and say well, thats wrong and thats wrong and thats wrong. You dont have the read the 45page indictment and be an appellate lawyer to understand what happened in that case. So that i think is really, really troubling, and much more so as the Attorney General pointed out. And karen, i want you to weigh in on that point. Lets show that moment. It was 40 minutes ago that he made that comment. This is what bill barr said. He just leaves all this carnage in his wake. Do you think he cares than . No, he doesnt care than. Loyalty is a oneway street for him. And in many ways, these two people down in maralago represent many republicans who feel that they have to man the ramparts and defend this guy no matter what he does and go along with him. I think they have to be careful or theyre going to end up as part of the carnage in his wake. Yeah, i bet Michael Cohen agrees with that there have been several people part of the wreckage and the carnage of donald trump over the years that im sure would agree with that. And its one of the things frankly when looking at that case that its really sad to see these two individuals who probably didnt realize the weight and depth of what they were getting themselves into while it was happening. But donald trump absolutely knew exactly what he was asking them to do when he was asking them to do it. And i thought it was also interesting you have in your point about the Attorney General where he was talking about he was trying to chase down all the guy in the truck and the person over here. And clearly became clear to him was completely untrue. And to your point, again, knowing trump as he did, he clearly wanted to get out of the way before the other parts of the scheme were unfolding. And kaitlan, you asked the Attorney General if he would vote for donald trump again. He said ill jump off that bridge. It was interesting. You kept push him who he might vote for this. Republican primary is taking place, and no nobody is talking about any issues in this primary. Were going to have a debate on the 23rd coming up, the republican primary debate. And i wonder the questions theyre going to talk about. Are they going to talk about trump the whole time . Thats a problem if youre republican. A real problem. Remarkable to hear him say what it means for the party. We have a lot more to talk about, but obviously that interview it was headline worthy. Thank you all. Well have you all back. My next guest thinks the january 6th is the most important in american history, laying out the stakes, but also for to president what he did subverting the election. Can ime your business however you see fit. Rosie used part of her refund to build an ououtdoor patio. Clclink dr. Marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelift. Emily used part of her refund to buy. I run a wax museum. Let Innovation Refunds help you get started on your erc tax refund. Stop waiting. Go to innovationrefunds. Com you really got the brows. Struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1 . Ask about vraylar. Because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control ofour symptoms with vraylar some medicines only treat the lows or highs. 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But my next guest argues while it is the former president who will be on trial, its actually the fate of the union that is itself at stake. This is in a piece titled u. S. Versus trump will be the most important case in our nations history. Rick hassen writes, quote, its not hyperbole to say the conduct in this prosecution will greatly influence whether the u. S. Remains a thriving democracy after 2024. Ucla law professor, director of safeguarding democracy project, and one of the foremost experts on election law in american, rick hassen joins me now. Rick, this was a fascinating article. Its not a subtle headline you have there. And i think obviously if you were trying to get peoples attention with oyour words, it clearly worked. And there have been a lot of monumental cases. But why do you think this is the biggest one and the most important one . Well, if you contrast it with the other cases about trump, one about Hush Money Payments and one about classified documents, neither of those implicate american democracy. The fact is that trump tried to steal the election based on everything we know, and hes not been held accountable. He wasnt convicted in the senate or disqualified in the senate from holding office. Hes faced no civil liability. This is really the chance, and if it doesnt work whats going to stop trump from trying to stay in office if hes reelected, or the next person who tries to steal the election . We need have accountability for what happened in 2020. Youre essentially noting the other cases saying they matter, but its this case you believe is more important, the one that gets at the heart of the matter. You write the risks of our system of government not prosecuting President Trump are greater than the risks of prosecuting him. Obviously thats not what were hearing from his allies tonight, his republican allies. What do you mean when you write that . Whats your message to those who say its not . Well, i mean, the problem is that what donald trump try today do is unprecedented in american history. He tried to manipulate the rules that we have translating the peoples votes into the choice for president , rules that go to the states, that go to the congress. And he did so knowing that it was all based on a lie, that he had no right to be president. This is the most serious thing politically that someone can do. And if you can get away with this, then what kind of democracy are you going to have . Democracy means that the winner of the election actually gets to take office. This case is about assuring that continues to happen in the United States. You summed it up well in your article, and everyone should read it. Our friend peter baker also at the New York Times tk this nd of 30,000foot look at this and said, you know, ever ins john adams, every defeated president has accepted the verdict of the voterd stepped down. As Ronald Reagan once put it what we accept as normal in america is nothing less than a miracle until mr. Trump came along is what peter adds there. I mean when you look at this and the idea what we have seen and what we see happen in other nations and the idea there are a lot of his supporters who wont believe this trial, they wont think its fair. Right. Theres going to be some people no matter what the facts are, theyre not going to believe it. But for the vast majority of americans they want to hear the facts. Even more people are going to be paying attention if theres a trial in the middle of a president ial election where Donald Trumps State Of Mind and the actions he took in state after state to try to overturn the results of a democratically conducted election are going to literally be put on trial and broadcast for the American People. And that, i hope, will convince enough americans that youve got to vote thinking about whether or not were going to have a future democracy in the United States. Well see if those trials happen before the election. Rick hassen, thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you. Security preparations are underway ahead of that arraignment for trump here in washington tomorrow. Secret service seen at the courthouse, a line already outside. Is washington ready . Well talk about that next. That orders fresh beans for you. Oh, genius for r more breakthroughs like that i neneed a breakthrough card. Like ours with 2. 5 cash back on purchases of 5,000 or more. 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Of course, thank you f