And as First Minister of scotland when his party faced the latest in a series of crises. John swinney, welcome to political thinking. Lovely to be with you, thank you. It has been something of a rollercoaster six months, havent it . You retire from Front Line politics, then the First Minister of scotland is forced from office and you decide to come back into Front Line politics, come to your partys rescue. Then Rishi Sunak calls a surprise early election in the summer, then you have a bit of a kick in the general election, the westminster election. Has it all been very stomach churning . Its been absolutely a whirlwind. A whirlwind, i think is the best way to describe it, because i quite literally, in the days before Humza Yousaf resigned as First Minister, was making further plans about what would be my gentle scaling down of political activity. And i was actually on the day that he resigned, giving a reflective speech about 25 years of devolution in scotland down here in london. And that was an opportunity for me to perhaps reflect a little bit from my experience of being a Member Of The Scottish Parliament since its foundation, and also the only Member Of The Scottish Parliament that remains, who actually voted for the scotland act, which established the Scottish Parliament. So, you know, had a particularly strong Vantage Point to reflect on all of that. And then the world turned on its Axis And Ifound myself back into frenetic political leadership. Were going to talk about some of the things that youve been confronting, but have there ever been moments where you thought, that decision to retire from the Front Line of politics was quite a good one. I should have stuck to that . Well, there are. Obviously its a very frenetic pace that im now operating at, but im loving it and im glad ive done it. So in that respect, im looking back on the last few months thinking, well, im glad i stepped into this role. Its a huge privilege to be the leader of my party and the First Minister of scotland. I didnt think i would ever be the First Minister of scotland, so theres an element of absolutely joyful surprise about all of that too. But its obviously, you know, the quiet days are few and far between. Now, youve been involved in government for almost the whole of the 17 years in which the snp have been running the government in scotland. You were Finance Secretary under Alex Salmond. You were deputy First Minister to Nicola Sturgeon. How different was it getting the job itself . Youd seen it at first hand, but when you walked in and they called you First Minister for the first time, how different was that . I think that that was one of the things thats i worked closely with the first two First Ministers. Really surprised me, because youre absolutely right. I worked closely with the first two First Ministers. I saw them at close quarters. I thought i understood what the job involved, and it was really quite a difference when i actually got in there, because you find a number of things, you find that decisions ultimately come to you and things dont really move until youve said, this is what is going to happen. And in a sense that that did surprise me a bit because i thought there were, you know, i thought in the past i was probably taking a lot more decisions along the way, but thats where we are. You suddenly realised you hadnt been in charge, but you now. . Well, its perhaps a bit like that. And there is also a necessity to be constantly focussed on where the government is going, what the government is trying to achieve, what youre trying to do on different issues and different questions. And that is a. Thats a constant demand to make sure that the Governments Agenda is moving forward. Now, beyond them calling you First Minister, is there a moment . Because if you talk to someone who becomes the Prime Minister of the uk, they will often refer to that moment. Refer to that moment theyre told by the Cabinet Secretary Theyve got to write a letter to the commanders of the uks nuclear submarines. And its a deeply personal moment, as well as a reminder of the huge significance of the Job Theyve now got, a letter that effectively says, you know, you might be under orders to launch a nuclear attack. Scotland doesnt have that control in its government at the moment. Whats the equivalent . I suppose there are two things. One thing is deeply operational and significant, and one is a ceremonial and significant. The deeply operational is arriving in saint andrews house the day before id become snp leader, and the day before i became First Minister to get a briefing from the civil servant, the leading civil servant, about the state of the public finances. And although i had been very close to those issues up until a year beforehand, the challenges of inflation and pay demands and various other factors were obviously creating a much more challenging circumstance, which we reflected on during the general Election Campaign when we discussed these questions in edinburgh. So that was deeply significant because i realised ive got a big challenge to face here thats perhaps greater than what i anticipated. And weve now addressed that by the reductions in public spending that we made in september. And then the ceremonial moment was when i walked into the Court Of Session, the highest court in the land in scotland, to have my Oath Of Office read out by the principal clerk and the presence of the Lord President of the Court Of Session and the senior judges in scotland, in which the king issued his commands as to what was to happen. And the language, of course, is very formal. Its in some respects quite opaque, but it conveys the significance of the moment that is about to happen to you. And that was a moment which i felt was deeply significant, because its a moment rooted in the history of my country, because at the heart of it is the office that i hold, which is the First Minister of scotland, the keeper of the great seal of scotland. Its a deeply significant historical office that i hold. And for me, as somebody who loves his country and loves the, you know, the identity and the character of my country was deeply, deeply significant. And its a history you want to rewrite. Of course, youre a believer in independence for your country. Thats your lifes work, if you like. Well talk about why in just a second. And youve got another of those moments there, havent you, this afternoon . Were talking here in london, youre about to get sworn into the privy council, as its called the sort of council of advisers to His Majesty the king. Do you take an Oath Today . I think im going to take an oath, yes. You do swear by Almighty God to be a true and faithful servant unto the Kings Majesty as one of His Majestys privy council, i think is part of what youll have to read. Well, ill find out what ive got to read this afternoon, but its. How do you feel . Well, obviously this is a role which allows me to carry out my office as First Minister, because as a privy councillor, you are able to conduct business at a particular level of dialogue within the united kingdom. And thats important so that i can properly and fully exercise my responsibilities as First Minister. Is there any bit of you that hesitates . Because for perfectly understandable reasons, there have always been some who believe the logic of an independent scotland is you should have your own head of state. You shouldnt have the monarch of another country. Would the young John Swinney have been comfortable with those words . The young John Swinney would have been absolutely stunned that this was happening. Hed be absolutely stunned thatJohn Swinney had become the First Minister of scotland. I can tell you that. Well, lets talk about the young John Swinney and why someone coming from a pretty apoliticalfamily, as far as i can tell. Your dad is a garage owner, still with us. Your mum naught but a medical receptionist. Not very political. Was politics nevertheless discussed at the Kitchen Table over tea . Certainly. I think my recollection of my upbringing in childhood was that my mum on political questions was absolutely passionate about education. You know, she was of a generation who as was my dad who, you know, when they got to their mid teens they were out to work. My mum was working when she was 14, my dad at 15. And they were into the world of work. My mum did not have the opportunity to pursue formal education beyond the age of 14, and i think she regretted that. She actually undertook some open University Education later on in her life, and was tremendously fulfilled by that. So she was very, very keen to make sure that there was a deep understanding in the house of the power and the significance of education. It had to be taken deadly seriously. Was she saying, in effect, i want for My Son forjohn i want for My Son, forjohn, to have chances i didnt have . Absolutely, absolutely. And i, and Ifelt Thatand i felt that in her example to me and her encouragement to me. And so, so that was the only bit of politics in the house. Bit of politics in the house. I think the thing that turned my, my head to the idea of scottish Self Government and Scottish Independence was witnessing the enthusiasm and the energy around about the debate around about a scottish assembly in 1979. And there was a hopefulness in scotland that things were going to change. Just to remind people, there was a referendum then which did not pass under the then rules that you had to get 40 of the vote. But there was a big national debate. Well, there was a big upsurge in Snp Support in 1974 and i can remember the carnival atmosphere. It was everywhere in scotland. It touched every community, a real upswing of optimism and Hope And Energy within scotland. It was largely driven by that aspiration about a better future for the country, and that, there was then a disappointment in 1979 when that didnt translate, despite there being more votes in favour than against. As you say, it didnt pass the threshold. So there was a disappointment, a lost opportunity since. And ifelt to myself, well, look, if youre interested in this, if you think fundamentally that the people who live, who choose to live in this country are best placed to decide its future, you better go and do something about it. And ijoined the snp. Was that the view of your dad then . Is it his view now . Do you know what his view is . I dont know what his view is like. View is, like. Hes been absolutely steadfast throughout his life of basically saying to me, im not telling you how im voting, and i can remember going to a Polling Station with them when i was very young and, you know, and being told, no, you cant, you cant come to the booth with me, you know . Thats me in the ballot box. And i was kind of ushered to the side while he cast his ballot. And we dont talk about politics. Of course, hes fascinated by what im doing. Im so im so glad that my dad has lived long enough to see me as the First Minister. Sadly, my mum didnt see that moment, but she saw lots of other significant moments in my political life, which im really blessed that she shared that. But its still, its still a secret. And no matter, and no matter how much probing i give of him is just not for telling. You dont know whether he votes snp. Whether hes in favour of independence. No idea. Really . No idea. Here is a quote from John Swinney. Never before have the prospects for scottish nationalism been as bright as they are today. Now, that wasnt what you said when you became First Minister. It wasnt what you said when you became leader of the snp, which you did 20 years ago before standing down for thejob. You said it in 1990 when you were national secretary. Its an awfully long time its taken, isnt it . Well, i wouldnt say that because if you take it, if im if those are those, those will be accurate. Those will be accurate comments from 1990. By 1997, i was a member of the house of commons. Now, again, if youd said to me in 1979, within 18 years you will be a member of the house of commons, i would have said not a chance, because the prospects were so poor. So that comment in 1990 reflected, i think, a stage, a milestone in thejourney that were on. And weve gone from being literally a fringe political party to, well, by 2007, the government of scotland, and have been continuously the government in scotland since then. Havent you blown your best chance . Because many people would say, look, the script was written for you a Conservative Government in westminster that had been there for years, a Prime Minister out of the Snp Central Casting playbook. An Old Etonian called borisjohnson who talked like this, theyre in charge and then they take scotland out of the eu against scotlands will. Its never going to be better, goes the theory. You cant possibly have better conditions than that. Its over. Well, well have a we have a we look at whats now happened. Weve now got a Labour Government which is carrying on with austerity, which is removing Winter Heating payments from pensioners. The Length And Breadth of the united kingdom, particularly acutely challenging and difficult for pensioners in scotland who are living in a colder climate. So, you know, people are beginning to look and look at the, you know, whats happened to the reputation of the Labour Government already with this very short space of time theyve been in office. People in scotland are looking at them thinking, what on earth did we vote for . Because we thought this was going to be different and actually its just more of the same. And that makes my point, which i was making in the speech i gave to my party just a few weeks ago, that whether its a Conservative Government or a Labour Government in westminster, the problem for Scotland Is Westminster government and the choices that westminster government makes. Now the other question people raise is whether you really want this job at all. Because here you are as First Minister, you offered to leave Nicola Sturgeons government after the elections in 2016 and � 21. A few years back. You said theres not a bone in my body that would make me think i want to do thatjob. Do you really want to be or were you just helping the party out during a crisis . Yes. Look, obviously i did big jobs in government. I had 16 years of continuous senior office in government, and i felt after 16 years, you know, its really time to make way for other people. And in the space of a year, we, my party faced difficulties and my party basically lined up in front of me, and every shade of opinion seemed to me, we need you to come in and to lead our party, and we want you to lead our party. And as somebody whos really deeply connected to my party emotionally, politically and the relationships ive got with people, the Length And Breadth of the country, i felt i had to do that. And when it, when push comes to shove, i come down to the point that why on earth would i not want to be the First Minister of my country . Why would i not want to serve the country i love . And thats the foundation of why i decided to stand for office. So, yes, id done a long shift. I thought it was time to make way for other people. But i love scotland and i want to give my best to scotland. You also said, i want to make space for a new political generation. Do you still want to make space for a new generation . Maybe ahead of the next holyrood scottish Parliament Election . No, no, im in here for the long haul. And yeah, therell be a time. When i step down. But its not, its not any time soon. Your first challenge though was not those Holyrood Elections but the general election. Pretty grim for your party. Down from 48 to nine seats, down from 45 in the polls to 30 . Did you know that day in edinburgh when i interviewed you for panorama on bbc one, did you deep down think, i know its going to be bruising, i know its coming. . I knew it was going to be tough. Yeah, of course i did. Because, you know, i can read i can read Opinion Polls pretty well. Ive been around the blocks for a while on these questions. So yes, i knew it was going to be tough, but at that stage we still had several weeks to go in the campaign. So i was trying to strengthen our position. I think in actual fact, i probably did strengthen our position during the Election Campaign. It could have been worse. I think it could have been worse. Yes, i do think it could have been worse. How bad could it have been . Well, let me remind you what happened to the Labour Party in 2015. They went down to one seat. So, you know, thats what happened to them in scotland. And they lost, well, what did they lose . I cant even remember. It was about 50 seats. I think they lost something like that or 48 seats. So i think it could have been a lot more acute. So i think i stabilised the situation. Part of your partys problems were that both the First Ministers you served, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, found themselves in scandals. Now, this is not the time and place to go into the detail of this. Alex salmond was cleared of charges of sexual assault. Nicola sturgeon has not been charged but the investigation into the snp� s finances go on now. Whats the lesson youve learned from the plight of both of them . About how you should do the job of how the party should conduct itself . Well, ijust intend to go through this and i think, i think even my worst critics would recognise this about me, that im going about this job of exercising my responsibilities as First Minister of scotland and as leader of the scottish national party, asJohn Swinney. So im just going to be myself, and im completely and utterly at ease with myself. And im just going to. My party is lined up and said to me, look, we want you to lead our party. And they must see what they can see, what im about, how i go about my business. And thatsjust what im going to do. Nicola sturgeon once said, Nicola Sturgeon once said that you were the most important person in my adult life, outside my husband and family. Well, im still as close as you were. Yes, well, Istill Get her advice, of course. Of course, were close friends and colleagues and. But you know, thejob ive got to do, ive got to do asJohn Swinney. And thats what i intend to do. And you believe in her . Yes. Now, another reason you have had difficulties you alluded to at the beginning of this interview is youve got to make cuts. Something you dont like doing. You like announcing things that are better in scotland because you give more money to adult social care, for example, or free tuition fees. Um, if you cant get this budget that youve got to get through the Scottish Parliament through, would that be a trigger for an election . It depends on the actions of other political parties that well put forward a budget that will be sustainable and that will do an important factor which our budget has to do. It has to live within the resources weve got available. We cant overspend. You know, weve got to live within the budget that we set. Thats the law requires us to do that. So well put forward a budget in that respect. Well engage in a lot of dialogue because we dont have a parliamentary majority. So, you know, ive had a fair amount of experience of this for the first four years of snp government. We were very much in a minority, much less so than we are just now. For people who dont know it, it means deal by deal, doesnt it, to survive. So youve got to so youve got to work with other parties to get enough votes. You need 65 votes to pass a budget. Ive you know, we dont have that number of votes under our, in our party. So weve got to get others to vote for us. And so well work to, to create a set of propositions that will command support. Now we talked about your previous reluctance to take on the top job, and it took you time to decide to do it now, not least because your wife is unwell and you had to decide with her, no doubt, whether this was something that you as a family could do, wanted to do. How much of a challenge has it proved to be . Elizabeth has multiple sclerosis, and she actually she does phenomenally well. Shes an incredibly strong and resilient person. But the realities of it are that some of the things that she would love to do, she cant do. She often jokes with her friends. And, you know, this has stopped me running a marathon alongsidejohn. But i think in all in all reality, i dont think she was that keen on doing a marathon under any circumstances, ms or not. But there are things that are difficult and she often needs her husband to be around. So i had to think very carefully and discuss with elizabeth, would we manage . Weve also, we have a son whos about to be 1a. Hes got a very active life. We want to make sure that he can have an active life. Hes really active in various sports. Hes got lots of places to go that he needs to be taken. So we had to think all that through to see if it would work for us. And have you tried to have rules . Do they work . Keir starmer said before he came to power that, you know, Friday Nights that was the big thing for him, the Family Dinner on a Friday Night and i think hes already discovered it was incredibly difficult to actually have many of those Friday Night dinners. Have you tried . Weve not tried because i think thats a recipe for not managing to deliver on them. So what we try to do is just work our way through the week, where were able to spend as much time together as we possibly can do. But it is difficult because things happen and i dont say that to complain about anything. I knew what i was getting myself into. My family knew that, my wifes an experienced journalist, former politicaljournalist. She knows the world of politics extraordinarily well. And, um, so we knew what all involved and accept that. But we just. But itjust needs a bit of careful planning. And theres a, theres a War Planner in the kitchen and theres a, theres a Wall Planner in the kitchen which tries to keep an eye on where everybody is and whats going on and whos taking who, where and all this stuff, and we work our way through that. Does that also mean that elizabeth, given her knowledge of politics, is she sometimes The Voice of wisdom and she sometimes The Voice who says, come on, john, thats not the right way to do it . Well, we we talk a lot that we are, you know, we are husband and wife. We are inseparable. We are a complete and utter twosome. So we talk things through all the time and its, that is so important of having a place of, um, Safety And Assurance to have these conversations. I remember you telling me when we met during the Election Campaign that Running And Youve just mentioned the marathon, was something youd taken up, that was your personal space. If you needed to take a lot of runs, since youve become First Minister, to give yourself that Mental Space to work out whats going on . Despite all the, you know, the long days and all the time thats involved in being First Minister, im still running and im managing to do about three runs a week normally three 5ks a week. And its absolutely essential. Its utterly essential. People at edinburgh will sometimes see you. Well theres, theres, you know, theres theres i run around about edinburgh and theres a guy who ive seen a few times whos gone to his work in the morning. And i saw him the first day i ran past him. Hes obviously at the same time going out to his walkk, and i ran past him one day and i could see him kind of looking, looking a bit askance. And then the second time i ran past him, he was slightly more, um, hes slightly clearer. And the third time were now on were Nodding Acquaintances as we as he goes to his work and i complete my run. Now, theres an old cliche about politics that youll know very well. All political Careers End in failure. Its often said. Whats The End of John Swinney� s race . Youve done everything now. Well, you know, obviously i thought that i had completed my public. And i said this to parliament. When i became First Minister, i thought id completed my public service. When i stood down as deputy First Minister and i and i stood down with a very, you know, you know, a very easy heart about it. But obviously ive now got this new challenge and this enormous privilege to be the First Minister of scotland. And what i want to do is i want to serve my country well. That is what i promised that i would be here to serve scotland. I want to, i want to give the leadership the country needs at some really difficult and troubled times. And i want to achieve Scottish Independence, and thats what i want to do. John swinney, First Minister of scotland, thank you forjoining me on political thinking. John swinney knows all too well that most people regarded him as a stopgap leader, that his party was sure to lose the Scottish Parliamentary elections as they lost the elections to westminster. He insists hes here to stay. Hes going to fight and he seems to think he might still win. Thanks for watching. Hello. A Weather Front is approaching us, and that does mean a lot of cloud for many of us. On sunday, quite a few showers too some of them will be heavy, but i think early in the morning, if youre closer to the North Sea coast, therell be some sunshine. Lets have a look at the satellite picture. Heres the Jet Stream pushing the Weather Front towards us. And that Weather Front brought a spell of very wet weather Saturday Evening for cornwall and devon, but i want to talk about the next few days and highlight this feature here. This Dartboard Low coming out of the tropics, thats actually a hurricane which will transition into an extratropical Weather System or a mid latitude Weather System. And look at it if you eyeball it, its ominously heading in our direction. Or is it . Well, actually, theres a lot of uncertainty. It could go to the south of us taking its very strong winds and rain. It could just about clip us. And it looks as though midweek we could see some potentially bad weather across the south of the uk. But its still some days away and theres really a lot of uncertainty with this Weather System. So keep track of the weather forecast. Now heres the here and now, Sunday Morning temperatures hovering around ten degrees so its not too cold first thing. And rather a lot of cloud with this Weather Front sweeping off the atlantic. Remember, pushed by thatJet Stream, a lot of showers through the morning and lunchtime across western areas around the Irish Sea into northern ireland. Again, the further east you are so closer to that North Sea coast, the drier it will be. There might be some sunshine around, but i want to show you whats going to happen later on Sunday Afternoon and evening. The showers in the south really could be quite heavy downpours moving through parts of wales into the midlands and also through the Peak District and into northern england, but clearing up towards the South West later. Now monday, i think the gaps between the showers will be bigger, but therell still be plenty of showers around, so youll need your brolly at some point or another, but at least well have the sunny spells. How about the temperatures on monday . At best, 17 in the sunshine. Most of us around about 15 16 degrees. So thats monday. How about the week ahead . Well, we talked about that potentially bad weather coming to the south. But look at this. By The End of the week well see colder northerly winds developing across the uk. And look at that Temperature Drop in london, from 18 down to 12, cardiff from 17 to 11 degrees. So theres a real chill in the air coming in about a weeks time. Bye bye. Live from washington. This is Bbc News a huge explosion rocks beirut, after the israeli military warns people in a southern suburb of the city to evacuate. This is the scene now live in beirut where there have been a series of blasts in the last few hours. Donald trump returns to the stage in butler, pennsylvania where there was an attempt on his life injuly. The Democratic Republic Of Congo launches its first Vaccination Campagin against mpox. Hello, im carl nasman. We start in the middle east, where there have been more israeli strikes in the lebanese capital, beirut. These are the latest pictures we can bring you showing a large explosion following one of those strikes