Transcripts For BBCNEWS The Media Show 20241006

PreSidential election. Now on bbc news, The Media Show. Hello, im ros atkins. And im katie razzall. And this week, were meeting the Business Brain behind europes biggest youtube creators, the Sidemen. Well also look at a new game from sony which has become one of the biggest flops in media history. Thats all coming up on The Media Show. Were Going to begin with news thats been dominating the headlines this week the escalation of the situation were Going to begin with news thats been dominating the headlines this week the escalation of the situation in the middle east. Weve been discussing the challenges of covering such a multifaceted story with the bbc� s chief international correspondent, lyse doucet. While we say that everything has changed about journalists but nothing has changed, the fundamentals are still there especially when you are on the ground in the heat and dust, in this case under the bombs. Its the who, where, what, when, why . What is actually happened . Remember that Good old fashioned word facts . Its to try to find out the facts. But more and more and in the world in which we live but it has always been the way, ever since there has been War Conflicts and wars always unfold on two levels. One is the facts on the ground and the other is the perception of the facts on the ground. And these perceptions now have become an increasingly hostile battlefield. I dont need to tell both of you that it is nothing less than a battle for the truth. So, that its notjust that something happened, its what other people think happened. And that feeling of what they think happened can matter more in the evolution of the conflict and in terms of how the story is told and retold and told again and then, it becomes history. And the efforts of the people within these stories to influence how the media helps shape those perceptions, they must� ve changed the way that they try and influence how you and many others cover the stories . They have many more tools now. Before, it was simply Face To face. Then, we went through a long period in the 70s Whenjournalists were being kidnapped most of all in lebanon then, we came whenjournalists were not just on the Front Line but they were the Front Line. And what we have seen and it has been especially intensified during this Gaza War is that people think they dont need us any more. We are the so called Traditional Media, mainstream media, msm, they call us, and it is not a compliment. Its not just an acronym, its a way of saying, you dont have the truth. You are presenting a biased view, a western view. And so, they take that story and they put out what they think is happening. There was a moment when i was i wont say which one, but one of my colleagues was doing an interview with a very, very controversial personality and the bbc was filming the interview and then, i realised they his people, were also filming the interview. And their film of the interview Got more hits and went more viral than the Bbcs View of what happened in that interview. They chose the questions, they chose the answers, they edited it and suddenly, a Bbc Interview was broadcast in a very different way on a non bbc channel. And thats becoming more and more common . It is being weaponised. There were moments where, this is my last point moments live on television fromjerusalem, doing interviews, talking to people and i thought my and at one point, i had to say to one person, sorry, myjob is to ask the questions and youre to answer it. This is a conversation. But they used us as content. They took our interviews, put them on their Twitter Feed and then Got more reactions on them and i thought, im producing Content Notjust for the bbc but for Everyone Else there is a theres something really fundamental happened in our world of information, news gathering, the battle for the truth in this war. Its partly to do with technology, partly to do with politics, partly to do with the Israeli Palestinian Conflict and the broader region. I know youre heading to the region soon. How does it work . Just tell us how in terms of you know, clearly, youre all rivals. Youre rivals against, you know, the other reporters who are out there. But in these situations, are you all staying in touch . Are you making sure that Each Other keeps safe . How does that work . Chuckles. I dont see them as rivals maybe because im not british, but ive never seen them you know, theres this classic thing that if you get there the bbc gets there before itn or before sky, that matters even more. Youve Got to get there theyve done it already and of course, journalism is very competitive. When the truth is notjust at risk but your lives are at risk, nothing no story is worth dying for. And it does bring journalists together. I remember we saw this during the full scale russian invasion of ukraine. I spent the night speaking to my colleagues from cnn, from sky, from itn. I called up all of them and said, you know, what are we Going to do . They called me up. And i think it does bring people together because, quite frankly, i heard 0rla guerins piece our excellent senior international correspondent. I heard her today on the bbc saying exactly the same but completely different. Hezbollah has taken us here. This is what hezbollah wants to see. This is the Human Cost of this war. In some ways, there is no exclusives in this you just want to tell the story as it is, bring your listeners, readers, viewers into where you are. What are your constraints around the dangers, both editorial as well as real dangers. And get out alive. Get out alive. Before we let you Go, it is obviously about to be a year since october 7, and i wonder in terms of your reflections about what we have learned in that year, particularly about how the media covers this region . It has become the media has become the story, and not just a story but very, very very emotional story, a story fired up with anger. I think it is a defining moment for notjust the media and the media is seen as a reflection of the wider world with many now discussing, criticising so called Double Standards and its very difficult for us at the bbc because we have these rules about dont show too much bloodshed, dont use certain kinds of words, we have a certain language. And as we heard earlier that, in making those choices, what we would regard as technical editorial issues are seen as political issues that we are not really telling the real story. Do you sometimes wish you could say more . No, i think we can im a big believer in that you can find ways to communicate the enormity and the intensity of an issue and sometimes you know, i often say dont dramatise an already dramatic situation. One word cannot convey the entire enormity of what has happened, but a Good story well told has far more has far more impact than the particular language, so i think this has been a really salutatory time, most of all for the region, including forjournalists i know youve done this before and a Record Number of journalists killed. How palestinian journalists have stepped up to cover not just what is a major world story, but it is their own lives literally on the line. And how we are dependent on them so much. And it will live long, what has happened now, the way we have reported, they way we have acted and, of course, the way the world has acted in this crisis. So much is being tested. Many thanks to the bbcs lyse doucet. Well, one of the many tasks within the Bbcs Newsroom and many others around the world when a story of this nature is escalating is the verification of videos that are emerging particularly videos posted on social media. And to understand that process, ive been speaking to my colleague from bbc verify, shayan sardarizadeh. Hes been explaining the work he did in the minutes and hours that followed Irans Attack on israel. We were on our toes waiting for it to happen and obviously, when it did happen, we started looking at the sources weve Got and the places we usually look for these types of videos. Now, fortunately, in my case, i was born and raised in iran before moving to the united kingdom so i know iranian sources pretty well and where to look when it comes to an event that is directly linked to iran, so we started checking videos coming from iran. Its really not an exaggeration to say within half an hour, maybe 45 minutes of the moment we Got this alert that iran had launched these missiles, we had upwards of, i think, 100 videos to look at because they were coming in thick and fast. In different parts of iran, people were basically pointing their Smartphone Cameras at the sky, seeing these what clearly looks like missiles travelling in a certain direction. And pretty much interestingly, even with those videos, you know, night time, Pitch Dark because mostly not always but mostly around places these Missile Launchers are in sort of areas that are rural, not populated by a lot of people, and most of the videos that we are getting initially from Side-iran'>InSide Iran were like people in small villages, rural areas, towns, looking at what was Going on, and they knew exactly what was happening. And then, we sort of very immediately because, exactly as was said earlier in the programme, because these were not cruise missiles but were ballistic missiles and actually, from Irans Perspective very, very advanced ballistic missiles, we saw this flood of videos from different parts of israel of missiles flying over different towns and cities. And then, what separated this attack from the one that we had in april was at this time around, we actually the videos were showing quite a lot of impact in different parts of israel, particularly in four separate areas that we Got most of our videos. Can i just ask you, first of all, you are assessing who is sharing these videos and in some cases, you can take a position about whether that looks like a reliable source or not. But even if it is a reliable source, presumably as well as checking who is sharing this, you need to look at whats actually in the video and start doing checks about whether this appears to be a legitimate recording of what happened . Yeah, the steps we usually take. First of all, we want to make sure that the video we are seeing is recent. So, the internet is flooded with all sorts of videos from all different times and eras, and one of the things that happens when you have a Breaking Story like this, you will see tons and tons of videos being posted on social media, either deliberately for engagement, or by people who basically dont know the facts, of past conflicts, recycled videos, videos from similar events in the past but not whats actually happening at the time that the story is developing. So, first of all, we have to determine the video we are seeing is recent. Then we have to determine where the video was filmed the process we call geolocation. We want to establish where exactly the video was filmed. And finally, we want to make sure we can find an earlier source of that video the person originally posted that, which platform . What did they say . And what was the context . Did they film any other videos . Did they film any other images . Because that then informs our process of reporting to audiences not just the fact that this Video Exist and its a striking video and people want to see and know whats actually happened in this part of israel or in iran, but also, in the wider context, we want to be able to tell a story about what exactly happened, based on these videos, putting them all together and them into a story. Shayan, thank you very much indeed for sharing what youve been doing in the last 2a hours. And that Verification Process which shayan is describing, weve heard on The Media Show before, is absolutely fundamental matter how many of the biggest News Organisations in the World Respond to stories such as Irans Attack on israel on tuesday evening. Now, lets turn our attention to what could be one of the biggest flops in Video Game History indeed, one of the biggest flops in media history. This is a new game from sony. It cost millions of dollars to develop, and its been pulled after just a few days. There were high hopes for it, though. Heres a trailer. We cannot tell them anything until they unlock the free gunner frequency. Probably not Going to happen. What . Most people never. Get what they want. Set your expectations. Low. And prepare to be disappointed. To find out why concord is being so unpopular, i spoke to keza macdonald, video Games Editor at the guardian. Well, concord was whats known as a Hero Shooter, so the idea is that you and your friends get into a game, you each pick one of a roster of heroes like you heard in the trailer there and you all have a very Good time shooting Each Other. Its also whats known as a live service game, which means that the idea is that players will play it for months or years, and it will have a long life and make lots of money for its publisher. But obviously, that isnt how its worked out in this case. And why not . Why was it so unpopular . Why didnt it work, do you think . You know, its hard to say, but i think one of the problems with concord is that it took about eight years to make, which is not unusual these Days Video games, big budget ones like this, blockbuster ones like this, take an awfully a long time. And a lot of money, presumably a lot of money, like as you said one of the estimates put it at about 300 million, 100 200 Million earlier estimates were saying. Either way, its an enormous amount of money. And i think by the time concord actually came out, people had moved on from this genre. There are already a lot of very popular games in this genre among them valorant, apex legends, 0verwatch these are all games that millions of people play, and there just wasnt room in the market, it seemed, for another one in that genre. I am aware of back in showing my age but of the Et Game in 1983 that atari made that was conSidered the worst Gaming Disaster ever in history. But has this now beaten it . How unusual is it for a game to be pulled just after launch . I dont think this has ever happened. Its not unusual for a game to be cancelled in the Run Up To launch. Like, there was a game called, i think, hyenas by sega which was similarly a Hero Shooter and it was cancelled maybe 4 5 months from launch. Thats a big story in games. But for something to be on the market for 11 or 12 days, and then to be pulled completely, it mustve been such an incalculable disaster. It would have much better from a Pr Perspective for sony to have cancelled before it came out because then it doesnt turn into a huge story like this. And what about the way, the investment in these games is it inevitable . You have to put so much money, it is a very narrow market in terms of people often the same game now for years and years and years, they are very wedded to one game. Is it inevitable in the Gaming Industry that there would be expensive flops and are they built into the sort of usp and the way they think about this . I really do think this is a kind of Existential Crisis are getting very out of control, there has been a huge contraction in games in the last few years after the Pandemic Lots of people losing theirjobs, lots of projects getting cancelled, lots of businesses Going out of business and i think that a return to more manageable ways of developing, more sustainable ways of developing, has to be on the cards because these live service games, they are enormous gambles. Either you make millions and millions and everyone is happy or you have to absorb this kind of exceptionally huge loss, and most companies in games cannot absorb losses like this very often, if at all. So, thats a prediction about the future of where the video Games Market might Go. What about the explanation for why . Whay has it happened . I dont mean why is it a flop. I mean why have they been these mass Lay Offs in the industry . Whats behind it all . During covid, obviously, everyone was stuck at Home And Video games became very, very popular, increasingly so. Games like Animal Crossing New Horizons which im sure a lot listeners will have played or remembered from that time. It sold 30 Million copies. So there was a lot of investments suddenly in Video Game developers. And a lot of, in my opinion, quite poor Business Decisions made by certain companies that meant that they scaled up massively in a very short period of time and then, when the Investment Money Tap was turned off, suddenly a lot of people ended up at the sharp end of Lay Offs. And this is something thats been happening for the last year, especially in games. There have been heartbreaking stories about studios who were making critically acclaimed games, popular games but still, their studios are being shut down and i really think its to do with just a general sustainability mindset. Like, gaming has become huge and billions of people play games now. People spend so much money on them. But its also become stratified. You get these massive Blockbuster Games and then, you get indie games and then, that space in between has become difficult to work in. I think there will be a correction there in the next few years. Keza macdonald, video Games Editor at the guardian, thank you so much for coming on the programme. Now, we speak to the manager of europes biggest youtube creators, the Sidemen. If you have not heard of them, theyre a group of friends who post wildly popular videos. Lets have a listen to one this is them playing a giant game of hide and seek. Ive shut down the biggest Shopping Centre in the Uk Foran insane game of hide and seek. The boys are starting in gravity on the Go kart. Theyre Going to race into the Shopping Centre and hide wherever they want. Here we Go. Boys, you have 20 minutes to hide Go'>L Go lets Go weve been talking to the manager of the Sidemen, jordan schwarzenberger, about the creative process behind the videos and the business strategy, too. So, the Sidemen i always say this now the biggest sort of cultural export for gen 2 from the uk, really, and people have likened them to the One Direction of youtube, as was in their documentary, and i guess how we describe the guys theyre seven real friends who started playing games together in 2013, literally grand Theft Auto. Its interesting because actually, ten Year Anniversary of grand Theft Auto vi is about to come out and grand Theft Auto v was the mark of their friendship and their whole brand, really. So, playing games together, and that blossomed into a channel and into them making videos with Each Other that became this huge sensation on youtube, when Youtube Wasnt at a point where it was as nowhere near as big as it was today. So they managed to kind of get there early, make content together thats all about them basically having fun, travelling the world, doing challenges, Game Shows and all sorts of other really fun things and i think people connected with them individually, right . Youve Got seven friends, some people will know. Obviously, some people like ksi has obviously Gone on to have amazing career in music and boxing, etc. But the other boys as well if you Go out on the streets and you ask anybody probably under the age of 30, they will be equally as famous. Thats meant that theyve Gone on now to you know, we joined them in 2021, i think they had 8 Million orjust hit 10 Million subs on youtube. Theyre now at 21 Million subs. Weve had a netflix documentary, two charity matches that have grossed 5 Million for charity and sold over 130,000 tickets or whatever it is. We have done a Christmas Number one in 2022 with Christmas Drillings beat Mariah Carey at christmas, which will be the top thing on my cv, thank you very much. And Got, yeah, numberthree on the official charts and Number One on the global charts. Weve launched a fried Chicken Restaurant now co brand, and a Breakfast Brand called best, a Vc Fund called upSide and a whole host of other things. So yes, its been a lot of fun, and thats all borne out of the connection that they have with Each Other and also with fans across the world. So, thats a lot. Thats a long list, even though theres its a group of them and a group of you working with them. Help us understand what a normal Working Week would be from your perspective and also from theirs because to generate this volume of products and this volume of content must need a pretty detailed plan . I mean, it changes all the time but really, they are producing i think about 8 12 videos a week it might even be more than that across all the different channels. The Main Channel on youtube, more Sidemen, their second channel, reacts and then Side , which has within it a different number of shows. Side is their you call their version of their netflix, if you will. Its their paid Membership Subscription Platform which provides more content, exclusive shows and formats. And, yeah, the average week will essentially be across three buckets, i would say in our business, the first being the kind of content bucket, so thats led by victor, who is the managing director, and is unbelievable. He runs Sidemen Side'>Entertainment And Side . So, thats all that content that he sort of runs. And its hisjob help us understand the creative process. Like, he would generate the ideas and suggest them to the Sidemen or they would come and Go, look, this week, i want to do X And Y and z . How does it do you sit down and have meetings or zooms or, i dont know, how do you do it . So, hell have meetings with all of the guys and theylGo'>L Go through all of their ideas and all the ones that they want to put in the pipeline. And then, Hell Work with the creative team to Go and plan that out and obviously execute them alongSide them on the way. And so, the way that he Guys Work is each of them take an individual video for the Main Channel, so that well have individual responsibility for each video, essentially, that Goes out. So, Hell Work theyll with creative and victor to make sure that the ideas are fleshed out. And then tania, who is the incredible sort of head of Sidemensundays production, shelGo'>L Go out and execute it alongSide lucy, who is the set designer, so and art director, sorry. So, they will be Sidemansundays. MoreSidemen, they do kind of shoot days once every couple of weeks, i think. And then, they do Gaming Sessions as well for that channel. So, some in person, some gaming. Reacts is all done at home and then Side , we have a studio in East London where the guys will come to every two weeks and theyll sit down and then, theyll have a timer Goes off. There are four sets which each of the shows are housed in and they wilGo'>L Go between set to set to set sometimes as a group of four or three with a guest and. And those sets are are fixed theyre there the whole time . You can come down and see them, if youd like . Yeah, id be very interested. So, how many people would work on producing all of this content, aSide from the Sidemen themselves . Oh, i mean ithink victor said the other day he had 35 direct reports, or something like that, so a lot of people. Its a big operation. It is. And you know what . Its big but its also lean. Youll see the sort of studio we have. Its pretty the studio is amazing. The office is relatively modest. Theres a group of Art Directors and graphic designers, project managers, we have hr we have a whole team of people now, so they make it work so, yeah, it is quite big. Whats the Business Model . Business model is adsense through youtube for monetisation, of course, and thats the Number One driver across everything. Side which is actually makes more money now than youtube adsense, and thats the direct monthly recurring revenue from their subscription platform. And that is kind of in that one bucket. And then, The Other Two buckets, the second one is the brands buckets, so thats, i guess, the Sidemen consumer brands Sides, Xix Vodka and best. And then, those are basically longer term plays they are not cash generative, of course, as anyone knows. And does that generation of talent want to be on the television . I ask because i see its reported that ksi will be a guestjudge on britains Got talent. In the quotes, hes saying hes very excited about it and No Doubt he is but part of me thought, well, thats interesting because does ksi or any other big stars of the new digital World Need Television and the profile it offers . Yeah, i mean, iwould say with tv generally, the Word Need i would question. I dont think youtubers or content creators need tv. But i do think it adds something, of course, and i think its easy to sort of Disregard Quote unquote Traditional Media and just focus on the new and i think theres an absolute balance to be had with both. So, because of your calculation that you dont want to turn your back entirely on more Traditional Media, you interact with it a lot. What do you make of it . Do you think sometimes tv spends too much money producing the content that it does . Do you think its ways of working are out of date compared with what you and others are doing . I think for me, it is a combination of things. I think the economy of tv doesnt clearly make sense for the way that advertisers are spending, right . Advertising dollars are shifting more and more into digital and theyre moving away from linear. Not at a rapid exhilarating, like, cataclysmic level but its you can see the writings on the wall, really, which is the advertisers are becoming slightly more savvy. And also, theyre realising that the over inflation of Tv Advertising prices causes a level of, well, can we get bang for our buck on programmatic or paid social . Probably, right . So, i think the movement away from linear as an advertising funnel, if you will, will innately mean that the budgets have to come down. 0r there has to be more creative ways of directly monetising audiences. And we are having this conversation in the bbcs Broadcasting House in the centre of london. Where does an organisation like the Bbc Fit into the calculations that you may make around clients like the Sidemen . Does an organisation like this feel relevant in any way to the Media World that youre navigating them through . You know, i dont i would say its increasingly hard to find where the relevance sits for our world. Interesting with public Service Broadcasters. I think that for a generation coming up today and i was speaking to one of the editors commissioning editors at the bbc on the Side'>Tv Side and we were talking and she is amazing and we were talking about it and i was saying, do your kids know what a psb is . Like, would they know what a public Service Broadcaster is . And she said, i dont really know if they would and i think that is the case the relevance of the bbc for public Service Broadcasting for Gen Alpha Gen 2 May be just about. For gen alpha, for kids coming up, i cannot see the minds of gen alpha, who are being born into a totally globalised entertainment climate, where they can have access to anyone in the world, any account on twitter, any account on instagram, any publisher on facebook well, theyre not on facebook any publisher on tiktok or whatever it may be, they look at it, i think and this is you look at tiktok and you see, for example, the sentiment around licence fee. They look at it as a full subscription. So, id say its an interesting mindset where actually, theyre in the Subscription Bubble in their minds, where everything is either subscription or a free account which allows me to access content and media. Who am i placing my money with . So, its funny you look on Tiktok And Youll see again the license fee stuff. For gen 2 and, i think, young audiences, they see it as a forced netflix account. Thats kind of how they view it. They dont see public service, i would say and this is obviously a Big Generalisation but my sense is they dont see it as a cultural necessity in the same way that older generations do. There is a man with a lot of plans thats the manager of the Sidemen, jordan schwarzenberger. And its interesting how they started off making videos, theyre now making all sorts of different products and he is making the case that each one fits with what the Sidemen are up to and at the moment, it seems to be Going to plan. And when you Go to visit those studios, can i come too . You definitely can. Brilliant. 0k. Thank you so much forjoining us here on The Media Show. Thats it for now. Goodbye. Bye bye. And if you would like to hear a longer version of todays live from beirut, this is bbc news. The lebanese capital is hit by more Israeli Air Strikes Today as hezbollah continues to fire rockets into southern israel. Anti war protesters are marching in london, Cape Town and paris as the first anniversary of October 7th approaches. French officials say four migrants including a child have died attempting to cross the english channel. A Vaccination Campaign against mpox is getting under way in the drc. Nearly 31,000 people have been infected there, and almost 1,000 have died. Welcome to bbc news. There have been fresh Israeli Air strikes on southern beirut, as the humanitarian situation is worsening in the country