Welcome to hardtalk. Thanks very much, stephen. Its a great pleasure to have you in the studio. Let me start by trying to establish a core principle. Is it your belief that animals should enjoy equal rights, the same rights as humans . Well, not the same rights, because, of course, they dont need the right to do some of the things we wish to do, like drive a car or vote, although they might do better than weve done sometimes. But they do need the right to be respected. I think theyre living beings just like us, and so they should be understood as much as we possibly can understand them. We shouldnt inflict needless pain on them, and we should curb some of our habits that cause them a lot of suffering. Peta, your organisation, people for the ethical treatment of animals, opposes what it calls speciesism and a, quote, human supremacist worldview. Can you sort of explain what that actually means . Well, i think we have to get over ourselves as a species, as a Human Species. Weve sort of set ourselves up as gods, and we regard anyone that doesnt fit into the Human Species as sort of trash. I mean, as you said earlier, we might pet them, we might skin them. We decide. And yet animals are not like us, they are us. If we took elementary biology, we learned that we are one animal among many. Its a great, if you will. Somebody said an orchestra of life, we each play a different instrument. Thats rather romantic, but we all have feelings, we all have interest in staying alive. None of us wishes to feel being burned with a cigarette or being carved up for a dinner. Sure, but animals dont have consciousness. 0h, they do indeed. As we know it. Have consciousness. I think were very pompous about that. You dont know that a baby can feel anything, but you do know in your heart, in your head that they do. Weve had innumerable studies now as if you needed a study, which i dont think you do that shows that, of course, they are conscious, they can think of the future, they can plan, they listen to you, they listen to others, they have their own forms of communication. We dont understand them, but they understand more human language, if theyre living in your home, than you understand of theirs. Theyre very canny. Animals have their own way, their own culture. You know, they have their own way of doing everything, and we need to be more observant and respectful and treat them decently. Many people watching this, listening to you, will also love animals, but very few Human Beings devote their entire lives to fighting for Animal Rights in the way you have. Just explain to me why you decided to make this pretty extraordinary commitment. I would have been an awful Football Player so, what i did, i was drawn to animals. From the time i was a child, i couldnt bear. I grew up a part of my life in india, and there you see animals on the street, you see bulls and ponies and so on, pulling heavy loads and people beating them. So that was in front of me, and it offended me. I was angry at it. When i came back to the west, to england and to other countries, all that is hidden away. You know, we have and i discovered by visiting them we have slaughterhouses, we have Factory Farms, we have Factory Farms where we raise rabbits for angora, for example, and other animals for different things. I went behind the scenes at the circus, and i realised that the average person was like my family growing up we loved animals, but we ate them, we wore them, we bought things that were tested on them. I went to the circus and enjoyed it, because i didnt have a clue that i was actually contributing to the suffering of animals. I was oblivious and i thought, i need to start a group, because ive inspected laboratories, ive been on Factory Farms, and show people what it is that theyre buying when they buy something that comes from an animal the animal wasnt a volunteer, they didnt want to be part of that and that there are options. Peta, the group you founded. Co founded was formed, i believe, in around 1980. Yes. You made a commitment very early on to direct action, direct interventions. How far have you been prepared to go . Well, i think as far as we go, is, in the old days, we would lie down in front of a fur store, for example, or a laboratory, so that we could get Peoples Attention to the fact that there were awful things going on inside, or that the products came from awful practices. Would you use violence . Oh, gosh, no. No. I mean, were nonviolent, and what were trying to do is create a world in which people are aware of how much violence they actually are responsible for if they buy a cut of meat or a Fur Coat or leather shoes or whatever, and this is expanding. People did not understand when we started that there was anything wrong with fur. I think weve crossed that barrier and now weve gone on to, well, leather is just hairless fur, and weve been on the Sheep Shearing Farms and weve seen the men on amphetamines beat the sheep, gentle sheep, in the face with their clippers and we know thats the norm. Most people dont know that, and so we have to show them. Yes, you express deep distaste for violence, but you have used all sorts of tactics which, frankly, contravene the law. I mean, you invade peoples properties, you throw paint at their items of clothing, you use subterfuge and lies to infiltrate laboratories. Never. Never, ever, ever. Were very careful. We have excellent legal advice and we never tell a fib. If were going in, we may leave something out that says were peta members or were peta staff. Thats not deception, isnt it . Well, it could be, but what theyre doing and what we unearth is illegal activities happening in the laboratories. So we rip the lid off this myth that its just a few animals being treated decently for some urgent purpose, and we show that the animals are treated worse than dirt and that nobody cares about them at all. And in fact, theyre mocked. And we bring out videotape showing people doing atrocities forfun to animals in these places. I just wonder if youve moderated somewhat over the course of years. Heres a quote from you some years ago. Violence to life would be a problem, but i wouldnt mind razing a building if it was used as a terrible place to torture living beings. That wouldnt bother me at all. It actually is a little bit of a quote. What i said was. I was asked about the animal Liberation Front, and i said, it doesnt bother me if they destroy a place where animals are suffering and are killed. Its a piece of property, and if people are making a profit from hurting animals, it doesnt bother me that they destroy that building. But violence is not something that we involve ourselves in at all. There was a time when the fbi suspected you, because they went public with it, of, quote, providing material, support and resources to known domestic terrorist organisations. Did you ever . They did. I wrote a book about the whole thing called free the animals, and it is the history of the animal Liberation Front in america. It does start in britain, because there were various groups here. But what we would do is we set up a confidential line and a confidential means of communication whereby the animal Liberation Front could send us videotapes or documentation from places where animals were suffering, and we would go public, have a News Conference and show that to the world. And of course, not being able to find the alf, the fbi was able to find us, because we said, here we are. Yeah. Butjust to be clear about this, then, we know that activists working with groups like the animal Liberation Front have targeted specific scientists. Theyve used things like Letter Bombs and incendiary devices. They have, frankly. Oh, yes, they have, but its the sort of thing that people will pick up on rather than i think the focus is in the wrong place is why would they focus on that, to say, leave them alone, when what is being revealed is that with, often, our tax money, were showing that experimenters. In the united kingdom, i think it was 2. 6 million animals they used last year, yet we dont have a cure for the common cold. Theyre dropping them into vats of water and seeing how long they can swim without drowning. Theyre putting electrodes in their heads, taking their children away from them. Theyre causing them all sorts of physical and psychological distress. Sure, but lets just talk a little bit about medical research. If in the pursuit of the collective public human good, that is, for example, trying to find a new vaccine to, you know, as It Wasjust a couple of years ago, conquer the covid virus, if medical researchers feel they need to run some of these experiments on animals for the collective good, are you adamantly and entirely against it . I think there is a moral imperative to see others as we would see ourselves. If i wouldnt do it to my neighbours children, then i shouldnt do it to some animal. And when it comes to that kind of collective good medical research, do you think you take the public with you . Well, yes. There was just a poll that showed that two thirds of the british public are opposed to the use of animals in experiments. But may i say. Of course, it depends what kind of experiment. Well, that was a broad stroke opinion, but may i say that the number of animals that are used for medical experiments is very small, pales in comparison to the numbers used in psychological show and tell, curiosity driven experiments enormous numbers. And what do we get for it . I mean, the experimenters love to say, oh, well, look, we might save somebody with a vaccine. But if you look at the whole spectrum of whats going on, everybody would say, well, all right, keep that 5 , but get rid of the 95. And we have a plan, a Concrete Plan that shows how you can get rid of that. Its called the research modernisation deal. I want to stick, if i may, with this idea of taking the public with you. Your organisation has become well known Around The World for pretty extraordinary, sometimes sensational stunts. Do you think stunts are an effective means of Activism And Campaigning . Unfortunately, i think so. And the reason, of course, is that you cantjust have the facts any more. Your show is one of the few. Lets be clear to our audience what im talking about. Lets take one, for example. You got activists to break into an event where anna wintour, who was then is still, i think the senior figure in vogue magazine. She was lunching at a posh hotel. A dead raccoon was thrown onto her plate. What on earth was the point and the use of that . I think it was to get her attention as letters hadnt, formal complaints hadnt. And she was still using coyotes, wolves, i dont know, all sorts of big Cat Fur in vogue. Other vogues in other countries had stopped actually promoting fur, and she was hard at it. And so i think this activist decided they would go and make a scene, and thats what they did. But for us, always we go straight to the person who is doing something thats abominable, we show them what we have and we ask them, please, here is the alternative. Will you switch . Theres always that overture and then well escalate, of course. Well, ijust wonder you know, its an interesting word, escalate whether you, on reflection, feel youve escalated too far and actually abandoned decency and Human Morality in your pursuit of your own agenda, for example, the degree to which youve used the female body, the naked female body, in your sensational stunts. I mean, many feminists actually have a real problem with the degree to which youve used sexualised imagery in yourcampaigning. Well, there are many degrees, there are many versions of feminism, and im of the old school. I mean, look, im 75 and ive gone naked. Dont Tell Me thats some sexual, provocative thing. And we dont use. But when you use models and actors like Pamela Anderson in yourcampaign. We dont use them theyre all volunteers. And i think its very powerful. We dont live in afghanistan. No man is going to Tell Me that i have to dress up, that I Cant show my shins or my chin. I mean, whatever it is, were not ruled, hopefully, by the taliban. I mean, we can do what we want and state a political position with our bodies. That campaign where you. It was tagged, my boyfriend went vegan, and a woman is depicted in a neck brace, and the message seems to be that when the boyfriend went vegan, he became so physically powerful that he bashed up his girlfriend. She laughs you have to see it. Youre laughing. Many people listening to this will find that repulsive. Well, it wasnt like that. Thats how some people are characterising it. I mean, the Bottom Line here is that were picking up on the most extreme things and then making them even more extreme when, actually, i mean, we litigate, we legislate, we are behind the scenes talking to corporations, but the press is just hellbent on taking something that is gimmicky and using it. And thats why we use gimmicks, because otherwise silence is a social cause� s worst enemy. Sure, but you didnt. Never mind not taking the public with you on some of these campaigns you clearly didnt take some of your own colleagues with you. Im looking at the words of gary francione, who worked closely with you in peta. In 2011, he said this of your own use of sexual and, as he would see it, misogynist images in your campaigning he said, the notion of using Sex And Sexism to sell the animal Rights Issue started to emerge, and it made no sense. As long as we commodify women through sexism, we will continue to commodify non humans. He was saying, you know, it simply doesnt. Garys a man, and he likes to say things, and hes quite hateful to some people but im a woman, and if i want to take off my clothes, i absolutely will. And any other woman should have the right to do that, especially to make a serious point. And its notjust done frivolously. A reporter from the times said to me, you take off your clothes all the time. Let me have the photographer take your picture naked, standing on your office desk. And i said, it doesnt work that way. Its for a cause. Ill go down. And i did. To smithfield market, and ill hang naked with the pigs, and you can see that our flesh looks the same. Im about the same size, and i wouldnt have wanted to die in a bad way any more than them. And thats what we did. Its not for titillation, its not exploitative. It is people saying, please listen to us. Animals are suffering and we need to stop it, and well show you how easy it is not to buy into this way of life. Do you ever feel youve gone too far . For example, using Holocaust Imagery and putting images of people who had emerged from the death Camps Side by side with animals in, for example, slaughterhouses. Leading jewish figures described that campaign as, quote, outrageous, deeply offensive. Another one that really upset Civil Rights Campaigners in the black community was an Exhibition Photograph that peta used, which put a Seal Being bludgeoned Side By side with a civil Rights Protester being beaten at a Lunch Counter in the united states. I dont think we did that one. We certainly did holocaust on your plate, which a jewish member of our organisation, peta, funded and asked us to do. And we set up a camp and we said, you know, victims are victims. Its all wrong. And we actually said, were we in existence back during that time, i hope that we would have been the people trying to do something to stop anti semitism, to stop the extermination. Maybe we wouldnt have had the nerve, like most people didnt have the nerve, to speak up. They were afraid. But we were saying its a parallel. That was yesterday. Be upset today with the horrors that are happening in Todays Factory farms, which are Concentration Camps where the animals are being exterminated for nothing more than a ham sandwich. Honestly, do you think most people Around The World see an equivalence, as youve just described it, between the nazi extermination of millions and millions of people, six millionjews, and the Factory Farming of chickens and pigs . No. And thats why its such a hard job, is that we have to get people to get over themselves and stop thinking about only atrocities that happen to Human Beings. Those are atrocities, and they shouldnt happen to Human Beings, but there are atrocities that are now happening to other sensitive, Sentient Beings that we are part of. When people make a choice, they pay with their money. They may give, you know, £100, £10 to a charity that helps protect animals, and yet they go to the Marketplace And Theyll buy a coat, a pair of shoes, a briefcase, a sandwich, whatever it is, a cosmetic, that deliberately causes suffering to animals and theyjust dont know about it. Lets talk about the positive relationships that Human Beings forge with animals, which you also seem to say are morally unacceptable, that is, Human Beings keeping pets, Human Beings using Guide Dogs those who are blind Use Guide dogs those who keep animals for sport, whether it be Pigeon Fanciers who race their birds, or horse lovers who race their horses. All of these different relationships between human and animal, which many would find positive, you find deeply problematic. Not at all. I mean some, yes. Pigeon racing, for example. Weve tried to stop it across the channel. Pigeons are afraid of the water, and they have to go over these often storm ridden bodies of water. They cant see the other side. If they arrive late, they have their necks wrung. Its not a cute little sport. Horse racing we know the use of drugs. We know they end up, many of them, in the slaughterhouses as horse meat. We know they break a leg and theyre put down. So, yes, we have problems with those. And the basic pet . But, no, the basic pet ive written a book about keeping dogs, a book about keeping cats. And i always say, if you have the time and the money for veterinary care, which is expensive these days, and the compassion, please go to the shelter. Dont buy from a breeder. Dont breed, because we have a pet overpopulation crisis. Dont get one, get two, so they can keep each other company. And, briefly, on shelters. I must put this to you. You run your own shelters at peta. One. Just one, in virginia. Well, The One in virginia is now hugely controversial in itself because, as i understand it, in 2023 you received over 3,000 cats and dogs in the shelter. Nearly 80 of them were exterminated. You in peta kill your animals. They werent exterminated. They were euthanised, which is very different. Somebody held them in their arms and let them go, because. They were killed. Yes, because they were in a world that didnt want them, and. Your ratio of. Wait. Wait, wait, wait. No, you cannot leave it there. You cannot leave it there. Our ratio of euthanasia is high because we are the only shelter in that entire low Income Area that allows people to bring animals who are ridden with cancer, who are aggressive, who have been out, have heartworm that they cant cure, and come to us, and free of charge we will take them in and we will euthanise their animals, because they cannot afford transportation, let alone veterinary care. And all the other shelters around us are no kill, which sounds so marvellous, but they send the animals who have to be euthanised to us to do what they consider the dirty work. And we will always do that. And we open our doors to anyone, and come and watch it and see who these poor animals are. I think in the course of our conversation, i have truly felt your passion, your passionate care for animals. I want to end by really considering your attitude to Human Beings. She chuckles in the course of your very long career in this cause, have you come to have more or less faith in us humans and our ability to change in the way you want us to change in terms of our relationship with animals . I think people are people all over the world and we have changed. I mean, weve changed in many, many social issues, notjust in animal protection, of course. Weve had to wake up to the fact that our bias, our prejudice, our discrimination was causing misery, and we had to come to grips with that and change. So ive seen so much change in the a0 years that peta has been in existence. I know were going to continue. Have you . Because you say things like, i am ashamed of humanity. Do you still have that sense of shame . Iam. Were very slow learners. It takes a lot to get through to us, to get us to change old, dirty habits. I grew up eating meat, wearing fur when i was 19, and it didnt dawn on me, even though i cared about animals. So i do think were slow to learn. Im very frustrated at the pace of understanding, but i do see enormous change, and i know enormous change is coming, more of it. Ingrid newkirk, we have to end there. I thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. Hello there. Well, following the recent heavy rain, theres plenty of saturated ground out there, particularly across the South Midlands, and a lot of Standing Water too. This photo taken by our Weather Watcher in warwickshire on tuesday, when there was a bit of a break in all of the wet weather. A drier looking day, but theres more rain to come, including here over the next couple of days, and then it turns colder but also drier as we head into the weekend. So this was tuesday, then, on the satellite picture. You can see this break in the Weather Systems there, a nice little gap. But wednesdays low Pressure System approaches from the southwest. And ahead of that for the rest of the night, there will be some heavy showers across parts of Southern England. Clearer skies further north, and actually across parts of scotland, temperatures could drop as low as freezing. This is a sign of things to come, of course. But a lot milder further south under quite a lot of cloud and, of course, some misty conditions over the flooded fields. And then on wednesday morning, heavy, persistent rain will push into South West england, moving further northwards and eastwards up through wales, approaching the South Midlands and central Southern England by the time we get into the middle part of the afternoon. It does stay largely dry further north and west, a few showers across northern scotland, The Cloud amounts increasing across eastern england as we head through the second half of the day. And then on Wednesday Night into thursday, our low Pressure System continues to push further northwards and eastwards. Notice the brisk easterly winds developing across parts of north east england, just driving more rain into northeast england. This is where well see the heaviest downpours, particularly over the higher ground of the north york moors. The rain stretching further west, out into northern ireland. Some showers to the north and to the south, but plenty of dry weather too. Feeling coolest, of course, across parts of scotland. And then our front starts to take a bit of a dive further south. It will really take its time as we head through Thursday Evening and into friday, not really clearing until the end of the day on friday. But behind it, we draw in more of a northerly wind, so temperatures are going to drop away to well below the seasonal average. And actually on friday night, as we see high Pressure Build in from the South West and the winds lighten, there could be quite a widespread frost. So, these will be the temperatures as we head through the weekend. Feeling cooler but largely dry, i think, for many on saturday. Bye bye for now. Live from london, this is bbc news. Sir Keir Starmer tells british nationals in lebanon to leave immediately as violence between Israel And Hezbollah escalates. Air strikes continue across the Israel Lebanon Border as both sides defy international calls for de escalation. People are voting in local Assembly Elections in Indian Administered Kashmir for the first time in 10 years. And a new global Investment Group pledges £80 million to try and stop Womens Football becoming more financially reliant on the mens game. Hello. A very warm welcome to the programme. Im sally bundock. The Prime Minister has warned british nationals still in lebanon now is the time to leave as the violence between Israel And Hezbollah escalates. Speaking on his way to new york, where he will attend the un general assembly, Sir Keir Starmer said the uk by sending around 700 additional