Imaan mazari hazir, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. Now, you have become well known in your own country as a Human Rights lawyer, including taking on key institutions of the state. I wonder, first, what it was in your early life that led you to that work . I think, when you grow up in pakistan, you see a lot of power imbalances. You see the constant derailment of democracy. You see injustices being perpetrated by the state and its agencies against the most vulnerable, whether thats the baloch ethnic community or thats the pashtun ethnic community or sindhis. So you grow up in that environment, and i feel that youre very motivated to fight against that injustice because you see it on such a massive scale. How would you describe the state of Human Rights in the Country Today . I would say that the state of Human Rights is deplorable. We dont have a Democracy In Pakistan right now, were living in an undeclared martial law. Theres a constant assault on our civil liberties. Theres no right to speak if you speak there, the consequences entail Enforced Disappearances by State Agencies, extrajudicial executions, if you belong to the baloch or pashtun community, and a series of other sorts of assaults, whether through registration of criminal cases against you on Terrorism Charges or other similar, trumped up charges. So, this is a long list of very serious accusations that you have set out there. Could we focus on one particular issue, for which you are probably best known in your work in Human Rights, and that is Enforced Disappearances, which you mentioned. Categorise that for us. What is an enforced disappearance . So, Enforced Disappearances, much like anywhere else in the world where theyre practised, are carried out by State Agencies, by the state of pakistan and agencies operating under the control of the federal government of pakistan. And what we see is the same thing we see in any other part of the world, which is the denial of information on the Fate And Whereabouts of the person thats been forcibly disappeared in pakistan. Unfortunately, what we see is that, even when people are recovered or released after many years, theres an atmosphere, a climate of fear that deters them from identifying their abductors. And there is a general unwillingness on the part of the constitutional courts to hold the perpetrators accountable, because the perpetrators are from the powerful Intelligence Agencies. So you see a culture of impunity in pakistan for Enforced Disappearances, where, despite the fact that there is something like over 10,000 registered cases with the commission of inquiry on Enforced Disappearances, there is no accountability of perpetrators to date. The commission that youre referring to was set up in 2011, i think, as a government initiated commission of inquiry at that time. Is that number credible, 10,000 Enforced Disappearances . I think this is a very small figure, in fact. The actual figures are something that we cant even imagine, because we cant even begin to imagine the kind of fear that people live in. I know of people who have been forcibly disappeared, whose families did not speak up, whose families were told that if they spoke up and reported the cases, their Loved Ones would be killed in the states custody, other Family Members would be abducted, raped, killed. And so you see a general sort of fear, because of which, theres underreporting of figures. And then. If you also see the commission of inquiry on Enforced Disappearances� performance in itself, my view is that its fuelled a culture of impunity, because its issued something like over 600 Production Orders. Production orders are issued to Intelligence Agencies or Law Enforcement agencies to produce the detinue before the commission, and those Production Orders are rarely, if ever, complied with. So, these accusations of involvement in abductions and disappearances have quite frequently been levelled at powerful institutions, including the army, and they have regularly been denied. Is there any context that you would acknowledge in which some of these take place for example, the fight against Extremism And Terrorism . I think that, if that were the case, if the state of pakistan was picking up people who were involved in these activities whether thats religious extremism or some form of terrorism then you wouldnt see this sort of increase in terrorism. And then, if you specifically look at the situation of balochistan over there, what you see is the same sort of pattern, where because there is no civilian structure of governance, theres no accountability, and people are picked up Without A Trace for ten, 20 years. So, you see that despite the fact that a commission has been formed, despite the fact that the High Courts exist and you can file Habeas Corpus petitions because of the lack of accountability of perpetrators, the practice continues, because those engaging in it know that they are the most powerful in the country, and that no one can dare to question them. And then, when they are questioned, as they were recently by the Islamabad High Court in several Missing Persons cases, then you see things that are happening now, like attempted introduction of constitutional packages to limit the powers of the High Court to deal with Habeas Corpus petitions. So, how worrying and dangerous is the overall situation for pakistan that you see at the moment . You are describing serious challenges to the rule of law, some of which, the institutions that you mentioned would deny. However, there is a growing problem, isnt there, with the insurgency in the southwestern province of balochistan. Just last month, in 48 hours of attacks, there was something like 70 people killed, more than 20 civilians among them. So, for balochistan, i think that one needs to assess it from this perspective that, in balochistan, who does the Insurgency Benefit . And my answer to that would be the state of pakistan, because the state of pakistan continues, particularly the military, to demand more resources to establish its control. And this is an excuse that the state of pakistan uses. So, for example, if you look at the situation in balochistan and talk about Enforced Disappearances, how does the state think that recruitment for separatist groups is going to be reduced if it continues to target innocent persons . And you see that the States Response is not in conformity with the laws of war, because they do not target the combatants, they do not target the Baloch Liberation Army, the separatist groups, they target the civilians that they forcibly disappeared who are in their custody. So what happens is that the Baloch Liberation Army will have a terrorist attack. And in response to that, the state will start extrajudicially executing people who have been forcibly disappeared for many years and throwing their mutilated corpses in various parts of balochistan, which only increases recruitment for separatist groups. So, one has to ask themselves, who is the beneficiary of this conflict . Who gets more resources and who gets more control . Its not the baloch people. And to some extent, its not even the separatist groups, because theyre engaging in this war with the state. 0n Enforced Disappearances, you have had clients right across the country, far beyond balochistan. Can we look at your work through the lens of one recent case as an illustration of the kind of work that you do . The Journalist And PoetFahad Shah went missing from his home in may this year. He had been known for Social Media posts critical of the army. What happened to him that made you get involved in his case . So, his wife reached out to me the morning after his abduction and informed me of the manner in which he had been abducted, and that she had approached the local Police Station but as usual, as a matter of routine in these cases, no first Information Report was registered regarding his abduction. We approached the Islamabad High Court, which were very grateful, took a very proactive stance and took a position that many constitutional courts have not had the Courage Or Clarity to take, and they ensured, the court ensured that fahad was released. However, what We Saw was, again, what we see as a matter of routine in these cases, that when someone is abducted and when a Habeas Corpus petition is filed, and theres international pressure, domestic pressure through the media and civil society groups, the person is produced in the custody of the state in either a terrorism case, a cyber related case, or other such trumped up charges, and thats exactly what happened with fahad. They showed him in the custody of Azad Jammu and kashmir police, and then they claimed before the Islamabad High Court that the Islamabad High Court doesnt have jurisdiction because the territory of Azad Jammu and kashmir is a sovereign territory. But eventually, because the Islamabad High Court had taken a position that the Isi Sector Commander was to appear, the inter services intelligence, the Sector Commander was supposed to appear, and as a result of that, that generated enough pressure to ensure his release. And its my view that, if all constitutional courts point the finger where the blame actually rests, on these Intelligence Agencies, there will be many more recoveries. Would you say that that is fairly typical of the kind of case that you work on . In that case, the courts did say that your client, Fahad Shah, was illegally arrested and they ordered him to be produced. He remains, i think, charged with serious offences, including anti terror legislation. But does that example not tell us that there is a Check And Balance on power . Yes, i believe there is to some degree, with constitutional courts, but here, its very subjective because it depends. We have another case thats ongoing in the lahore High Court, rawalpindi bench, at this time, which concerns the enforced disappearance of a former Deputy Superintendent of adiala jail, mrmuhammad akram. So, hes a Serving Officer in the prison department, and he was forcibly disappeared on independence day. And yet you see that the lahore High Court has not been able to ensure his recovery because it hasnt gone down the route that constitutional courts must go down to ensure recovery. Theres no point in asking the police or attributing blame onto the police when the entire country is well aware of who is behind these disappearances. So, today, your. Yourface and your name is very well known in pakistan in connection with your work. Almost all of these kinds of cases, many of them, at least, have your name attached to them. What has the involvement meant for the rest of your life . You were yourself arrested last year. I was arrested, and im still facing criminal and anti Terrorism Charges, trumped up charges, false cases, because i do speak my mind, because i take up cases of this nature. And i think that theres a lot of threats that one does have to face. Youre living under constant surveillance, and youre also being subjected to threats of rape, of abduction, of recalling, of my bail because im on bail in three cases right now, including two anti terrorism cases. So, this is a constant threat. But i would like to highlight that, as a lawyer, or as a woman who belongs to the federal capital, i still come from a lot of privilege. The thousands of families across pakistan whose Loved Ones are disappeared, they dont have that privilege and so theyre dealing with a day to Day Situation where their other Family Members are being picked up, where theyre being put on watch lists, where theyre being put on the fourth schedule under the anti terrorism act. So the threats that they have to face on a day to Day Basis are much more severe and serious. You do come from a well known family, and your mother served as a minister under Imran Khan when he was prime minister. Tell me about these threats, rape and abduction, that you face. Are these issued to you . Was this when you were in custody that you were threatened in that way, or are they expressed to you in some other way . So, when i was in custody, i was approached by four officials, two belonging to the inter services intelligence, one belonging to the Military Intelligence and one belonging to the intelligence bureau, all of whom threatened me that i would be shot while walking down the street if i didnt agree to their demands. And their demands, while i was in custody, was that i give an affidavit and i make a video saying that what i said about the pakistan Army Isnt true, and i support and respect the Armed Forces and i retract my statement. And i was threatened by them that if i did not do this, first, they would send me to mach jail in balochistan, which is a jail notorious for physical torture on political dissidents and politicians. And i was informed that the courts and the judges are there, so theres no point resisting because Theres Nothing that im doing it for and Theres Nothing that ill gain from it. So these sorts of threats were given to me while i was in custody. A rifle was pointed at my head and i was repeatedly asked to give my phone password. Threats of torture were made by a Police Official. I was put in a room with a Police Official who had an Iron Rod, who was hitting that Iron Rod on the table and demanding that i give up my phone password, which i refused. So, ive been dealing with these threats in custody and outside custody, as well. This is not the first time, and i think that these State Agencies also need to realise that when people do the kind of work that i do, theyre not going to be deterred by such threats. And you werent, at no moment in that room, were you deterred orfrightened . I, honestly speaking, wasnt scared. I was very angry when they were threatening me in that room, and i expressed that anger to them, as well. And i told them that i would rather die than accede to their demands, because their demands were unfair and their hold on power is unconstitutional. So they can keep me injail. They can recall my bail. I know that they have all the power in the world, but that doesnt mean that people in pakistan will stop resisting. And in pakistan, the history of pakistan is such that the women of pakistan have always been at the forefront of resistance, and i intend to also remain there. We dont have a specific response in relation to your case from the organisations that youre talking about but the case and the charges against you continue. I want to go back to what you alluded to, your comments about the pakistan army, which generated a lot of publicity and which no doubt led to your arrest. You had addressed a rally, hadnt you, a rights rally, and you said to the people who were gathered there that they were being treated as terrorists, whereas the real terrorists, you said, are sitting in ghq, ghq, being pakistans military headquarters. Do you regret speaking about the army in that way . At least one Government Minister said he thought that your words were condemnable because the army, he said, were the ones who were fighting terrorism. Ijust have one question in response to this, and that is that how have the terrorists, the Tehreek E Taliban pakistan, returned to those areas, those areas to which those people belong who i was addressing . How have they returned there if there is no involvement of the state or its agencies . And what kind of Military Operations have been launched there for the last many years, and money and resources have been taken for those Military Operations people have been made internally displaced persons. People are under threat both from the taliban and from the state. So i dont think that i did anything wrong by voicing a legitimate grievance of the people over there and i think that this grievance has now been voiced by local police in those areas. So, for example, recently in Lakki Marwat area, in khyber pakhtunkhwa, the police has, after many negotiations with the army, demanded their withdrawal and the army has withdrawn from the area because their claim was that they were being targeted by the military and they were being targeted by the terrorists. So i think that these are legitimate questions to ask, and i think that the state has to answer us, and the state has to answer the people from those areas because those people have lost their lives, those people have lost their homes, and theres no change in their situation. So i think, rather than arresting people who question, the state has to introspect on its own disastrous policies. Your country has had a long history of struggles with institution building, with interruptions to democracy, with the Armys Involvement in public life and in power, in one way or another. The situation that youre describing, and what you say pakistan is in now, would you say its different to previous periods . I think its different in the sense that the present civilian government has completely surrendered to the establishment. And so, you see attempts at amending the constitution in a disastrous way. You see justification of Daylight Abductions of mainstream political leadership, of their Family Members. The kinds of raids that weve seen on the homes of political opponents. Yes, these things did take place in pakistan before in what we call The Peripheries in khyber pakhtunkhwa, in the province of balochistan and the province of sindh. But we didnt see the sort of, um, violence and intimidation of Mainstream Politicians in punjab. So, i think that this practice of Enforced Disappearances and of threats and intimidation by the Security Establishment, thats only increased in recent years and now what were seeing is a complete control on media of the establishment and almost complete control on the courts by the establishment. And theres little to no resistance as a result of that, which We Saw a lot of during Imran Khans government. And we were all a part of it. We saw a lot of pushback. We engaged in a lot of pushback. And, at that time, the Opposition Parties were standing by us, as well. But now, the main opposition party, which is the Pakistan Tehreek E insaf, itS Leader is in jail and its workers are also incarcerated and, even now, its workers and itS Leaders and theirFamily Members are being targeted. So i think that that space, because one thing that this government said when they had come into power was that weve taken some Breathing Space now that Imran Khan is gone. But i think that weve gone back ten, 20 years and the space that weve given up and this government has surrendered, theyre going to be held accountable, and they were held accountable in this last general election, and thats why they have no leg to stand on, because this government, nobody voted for them. And thats why, right now, theyre having to rely so much on the Security Establishment for the survival of their politics. They did come to power after an election in february. The process was widely criticised. I wonder if you are speaking through partly political motivations. Are you a supporter of Imran Khan, and do you see him as a victim of the system youre describing . I think that ive been very critical of Imran Khan and anyone, including in pakistan, who knows my work, when my mother was a minister in Imran Khans government, i was in the courts every day fighting against Imran Khans governments fascism. And i still condemn what happened under Imran Khans government. And i still believe that Imran Khan has not understood that its not about one man, its about institutional mentality. And so even today, i have a major problem with the fact that mr Imran Khan says that im willing to talk to the military, but im not willing to talk to politicians, because that is what politics is. All Political Parties have to sit together and form a new charter of democracy, or chart a new way forward, without the interference of the military. So, im a critic of Imran Khan. Im a critic of the current government, as well. I dont support any political party in pakistan. My only affiliation, if ever, has been with civil rights movements like the pashtun tahafuz movement, like baloch yakjehti committee, so, i dont have any political ambitions or aspirations. Do you regard him as wrongfully imprisoned . Would you ever defend him . A un panel has said hes arbitrarily detained. Hes been in prison now for more than a year with continuing cases brought against him. I think that he has a good legal team and, yes, definitely, the way that i spoke for them, nawaz sharif, im also speaking for Imran Khan that way, because i feel that political leadership is consistently targeted by the Security Establishment and i think pakistans greatest tragedy is that Political Parties are willing to become tools in their hands, rather than coming together and drawing some red lines and agreeing upon some issues which are non negotiable, whether thats Enforced Disappearances, whether thats the issue of overall civilian supremacy. So, for the same reason that i spoke for nawaz sharif, during Imran Khans government, i now speakfor Imran Khan, as well, under this government. You are young enough to hopefully have decades of work ahead of you in this field, or in others. As you look around you, are there signs of Hope And Change . Are there. Are there seeds being planted or emerging that make you feel more positive about the future of the country . I think that i have a lot of hope in pakistans youth, and especially the youth, from what we call The Peripheries, from balochistan, from khyber pakhtunkhwa, because i believe that the kind of resistance that were seeing in those provinces, thats truly inspirational, and Thats Something that the province of punjab needs to learn from. Thats something that we, sitting in islamabad, need to learn from, for how, Vis A vis how to resist when theres such an offensive State Crackdown and Clamp Down on your civil liberties. So i think that there is hope, and i think we should never lose hope. I do understand, and i do often feel frustrated, whether thats in certain courts or whether thats seeing the general situation around oneself. But i do believe that there are a lot of people fighting the good fight, and i believe that they will eventually be able to bring change. And i think that people, the Political Parties, need to understand that their strength lies in the pakistani people and their vote, not in the military establishment. Imaan mazari hazir, thank you for being on hardtalk. Hello there. For some parts of the uk, there is a big change on the Way Weather wise, particularly in the south, where on thursday We Saw a lot of sunshine. Temperatures in london got above 26 celsius. But were watching this area of low pressure swirling up from the south, increasingly bringing some showers and thunderstorms over the next few days. And the rainfall is really going to accumulate. Some spots could be looking at around a Months Worth of rain from these intense downpours and thunderstorms however, only really in the south. Further north, it remains largely dry. The best of the sunshine across North West england, northern ireland, western scotland. Eastern scotland, North East England likely to be plagued by a lot of cloud, which will make it feel rather cool. And actually that cloud has been rolling its way a long way inland, taking its time to burn back towards the East Coast through the day on friday, but it should do. Staying quite murky, though, for parts of eastern scotland, North East England. And then down towards the south of england, perhaps into the midlands, wales, we will see some of these showers and thunderstorms popping up, some of which will give a lot of rain in a short space of time. 23 degrees in london, just 15 if The Cloud lingers there in aberdeen. And as we go through friday night, that cloud again rolls a little bit further inland. Still the chance for some showers and thunderstorms rumbling around across the channel islands, getting back into southern counties of england. A mild Night Forjust about all of us, a mild start to the weekend. And again on saturday, down towards the south, well see these showers and thunderstorms across southern counties of england into east anglia, the midlands, parts of wales. But for northern england, northern ireland, western scotland, well see some sunshine. Eastern scotland, North East England, still plagued by that cloud, perhaps the Odd Spot of drizzle. Could be quite misty and murky around some of the coast, and temperatures, if anything, coming down a little bit from where they have been. And then into sunday, it looks like well see some slightly more persistent, heavy, thundery rain, again affecting southern parts of the uk, east anglia, the midlands, wales. Further north from there, largely dry. Best of the sunshine in the North West, more cloud into the north east, so the pattern continues. But a change in the Weather Pattern next week. It does turn really quite unsettled. Showers or longer spells of rain, could be quite windy, and it turns quite a lot colder as well. 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