Play goes right into. With me at the desk, Piers Morgan, Generaljohn Mccoll the former deputy Supreme Allied Commander of nato, and the political correspondent of politichoe, Ava Sa Ntina evans. Morning, morning. Lets start with whats making the news. The sunday times splashes on the issue well be talking about Today Permission for ukraine to use western long range missiles. Tories urging the uk to Say Yes alone. It also breaks the story the wealthy Donor And Victoria starmer� s dresses. The observer sticks with Foreign AffairsFears Russia has shared nuclear secrets with iran. The express has more pain over Winter Fuel Allowance for pensioners. The Sunday People focuses on a call from esther ghey, briannas mum, who spoke so movingly to us a few months ago, for Mobile Phones to be banned in schools. And on the bbc, Breaking News this morning several people are dead after attempting to cross the channel. Lots of news this morning but we are going to focus at the beginning of the programme and what is happening in ukraine. General, you have served all over the world, you have a seniorjob at nato defence alliance, what difference would it be using long range missiles being fired into russia make to ukraine . The longrange missiles being fired into russia make to ukraine . The weekend has been disappointing. Russia make to ukraine . The weekend has been disappointing. At russia make to ukraine . The weekend has been disappointing. At the russia make to ukraine . The weekend has been disappointing. At The End has been disappointing. At The End of the weekend, President Putin will be encouraged and emboldened and President Zelensky will be disappointed. It is a negative outcome. However, in terms of the Storm Shadow missiles, i think it would have a limited effect, it is a tactical outcome. In terms of the long term campaign, the war as a whole, i dont think it would have a dramatic impact. It needs to be put in that context. I also hope the conversation will continue and in due course, permission will be given. Due course, permission will be civen. ~. ,. , ~ due course, permission will be civen. ~. ,. , ~. , given. What do you think about this, it is notjust given. What do you think about this, it is notjust about given. What do you think about this, it is not just about the given. What do you think about this, it is notjust about the military it is notjust about the military outcomes, it is about the support from the west and that is why you say it is disappointing . We from the west and that is why you say it is disappointing . From the west and that is why you say it is disappointing . We have got to work out do say it is disappointing . We have got to work out do we say it is disappointing . We have got to work out do we want say it is disappointing . We have got to work out do we want to say it is disappointing . We have got to work out do we want to win, say it is disappointing . We have got to work out do we want to win, or. Say it is disappointing . We have got| to work out do we want to win, or do we not to work out do we want to win, or do we not want to work out do we want to win, or do we not want to lose . Do we want president we not want to lose . Do we want President Putin, a ruthless and barbaric President Putin, a ruthless and barbaric to President Putin, a ruthless and barbaric to dictator to invade a country barbaric to dictator to invade a country and take what he wants . I dont country and take what he wants . I dont think country and take what he wants . I dont think we do. And to allow him to keep dont think we do. And to allow him to keep what he is taking, i remind you what to keep what he is taking, i remind you what Winston Churchill said about you what Winston Churchill said about appeasement, and that is someone about appeasement, and that is someone who feeds a crocodile hoping you will someone who feeds a crocodile hoping you will be someone who feeds a crocodile hoping you will be The Last One it eats. We need you will be The Last One it eats. We need to you will be The Last One it eats. We need to be you will be The Last One it eats. We need to be careful we are not Playing Need to be careful we are not playing into putins hands. Whenever it seems playing into putins hands. Whenever it seems like ukraine are getting some it seems like ukraine are getting some kind it seems like ukraine are getting some kind advantage, heath rattles his nuciear some kind advantage, heath rattles his nuclear Sabre And Everybody backs his nuclear Sabre And Everybody backs off his nuclear Sabre And Everybody backs off in the fear he will use nuciear backs off in the fear he will use nuclear weapons. Backs off in the fear he will use nuclearweapons. He hasnt backs off in the fear he will use nuclear weapons. He hasnt done that and we nuclear weapons. He hasnt done that and we need nuclear weapons. He hasnt done that and we need to stand up to this guy. We have and we need to stand up to this guy. We have a and we need to stand up to this guy. We have a new Prime Minister who is spending a lot of time on Foreign Affairs already, we have former Defence TorySecretaries Today saying starmer should go alone . Were ahead to trump potentially in the white were ahead to trump potentially in the White House. Were ahead to trump potentially in the White House. If were ahead to trump potentially in the White House. If he were ahead to trump potentially in the White House. If he does were ahead to trump potentially in the White House. If he does get were ahead to trump potentially in the White House. If he does get inl the White House. If he does get in the White House. If he does get in the white the White House. If he does get in the White House, the White House. If he does get in the White House, and the White House. If he does get in the White House, and this the White House, and this conversationally the White House, and this conversationally having i the White House, and this. Conversationally having now the White House, and this conversationally having now will not happen, conversationally having now will not happen, it conversationally having now will not happen. It Will Conversationally having now will not happen, it will cease conversationally having now will not happen, it will cease to conversationally having now will not happen, it will cease to exist. Conversationally having now will not happen, it will cease to exist. So i happen, it will cease to exist. So Keir Starmer happen, it will cease to exist. So Keir Starmer has happen, it will cease to exist. So Keir Starmer has got happen, it will cease to exist. So Keir Starmer has got to happen, it will cease to exist. So Keir Starmer has got to get happen, it will cease to exist. So Keir Starmer has got to get in. Happen, it will cease to exist. So. Keir starmer has got to get in early and make Keir Starmer has got to get in early and make this Keir Starmer has got to get in early and make this agreement Keir Starmer has got to get in early and make this agreement now Keir Starmer has got to get in early and make this agreement now and | Keir Starmer has got to get in early and make this agreement now and that would and make this agreement now and that would be and make this agreement now and that would be more and make this agreement now and that would be more difficult and make this agreement now and that would be more difficult for and make this agreement now and that would be more difficult for trump and make this agreement now and that would be more difficult for trump to i would be more difficult for trump to Take That would be more difficult for trump to Take That legislation would be more difficult for trump to Take That legislation if would be more difficult for trump to Take That legislation if he would be more difficult for trump to Take That legislation if he is would be more difficult for trump to Take That legislation if he is to Take That legislation if he is to ascend Take That legislation if he is to ascend to Take That legislation if he is to ascend to the Take That legislation if he is to ascend to the presidency. Take that legislation if he is to ascend to the presidency. Thei Take That legislation if he is to ascend to the presidency. The trick for starmer, ascend to the presidency. The trick for starmer, he ascend to the presidency. The trick for starmer, he has ascend to the presidency. The trick for starmer, he has to ascend to the presidency. The trick for starmer, he has to get ascend to the presidency. The trick for starmer, he has to get in ascend to the presidency. The trick for starmer, he has to get in now. For starmer, he has to get in now with the for starmer, he has to get in now with the democrats for starmer, he has to get in now with the democrats or for starmer, he has to get in now with the democrats or it for starmer, he has to get in now with the democrats or it is for starmer, he has to get in now with the democrats or it is all with the democrats or it is all over~ with the democrats or it is all over~ in with the democrats or it is all over. ,. , , over. In terms of president trump, we will talk over. In terms of president trump, we will talk to over. In terms of president trump, we will talk to you over. In terms of president trump, we will talk to you a over. In terms of president trump, we will talk to you a lot over. In terms of president trump, we will talk to you a lot about over. In terms of president trump, we will talk to you a lot about that| we will talk to you a lot about that later in the show. Do you think its right that Donald Trump should wash his hands of ukraine . Hes right that Donald Trump should wash his hands of ukraine . His hands of ukraine . Hes being very cryptic his hands of ukraine . Hes being very cryptic he his hands of ukraine . Hes being very cryptic. He said his hands of ukraine . Hes being very cryptic. He said he his hands of ukraine . Hes being very cryptic. He said he could very cryptic. He said he could resolve very cryptic. He said he could resolve it very cryptic. He said he could resolve it in 24 hours, that is a stretch resolve it in 24 hours, that is a stretch but resolve it in 24 hours, that is a stretch. But the thing about Donald Trump stretch. But the thing about Donald Trump which is effective as well as ineffective, his effectiveness is his unpredictability. He has a gigantic his unpredictability. He has a gigantic ego. Is he wants the first thing gigantic ego. Is he wants the first thing he gigantic ego. Is he wants the first thing he wants when he gets Re Elected for vladimir putin to claim Re Elected for vladimir putin to claim a Re Elected for vladimir putin to claim a victory over the west . I think claim a victory over the west . I think that claim a victory over the west . I think that is very unlikely. So the business in hand, a decision for the west should ukraine be allowed to fire long range missiles supplied by its allies into russia . Putins warned of nuclear consequences if the us and the uk Say Yes. That dangerous dilemma is just one of a long list of risks for the new Foreign Secretary. Lammy� s already travelled to nine countries in ten weeks a trip to kyiv this week, before those talks in the White House alongisde Keir Starmer, on the other side of the table tojo biden. Hes here. Welcome to this morning with your first big interview with us as Foreign Secretary. I want to ask you about the news of several migrants who have died crossing the channel, is there more Information the government can share at this stage . I know as much as you do. It is awful. It is a further loss of life. What i can say, before i left for ukraine with Antony Blinken, i sat with the Prime Minister, the home secretary, the Attorney General and others at the national Crime Agency actually looking at the awful sort of Rubber Dinghies that people are coming across the channel with. Many of them unable to make it in these contraptions, discussing how we go after those gangs, in cooperation, upstream with other european partners. I know the Prime Minister will be in italy tomorrow with Prime Minister maloney, discussing these issues and the work they have done with albania. Brute issues and the work they have done with albania with albania. We can confirm eight eole with albania. We can confirm eight peeple have with albania. We can confirm eight people have lost with albania. We can confirm eight people have lost their with albania. We can confirm eight people have lost their lives, with albania. We can confirm eight people have lost their lives, but i people have lost their lives, but what do you think the chances are of the uk following the kind of model that italy has done by sending them to albania, because there has been some success there. Timer;t to albania, because there has been some success there. Some success there. They have a comprehensive some success there. They have a comprehensive scheme some success there. They have a comprehensive scheme with some success there. They have a comprehensive scheme with albania, understanding the Balkans Route other routes that migrants use. Because it has reduced the numbers, we are interested in discussing with italy, the schemes they have developed, Notjust Albania but with Syria And Libya as well. We developed, Notjust Albania but with Syria And Libya as well. Syria and libya as well. We will see what happens Syria And Libya as well. We will see what happens in Syria And Libya as well. We will see what happens in the Syria And Libya as well. We will see what happens in the next Syria And Libya as well. We will see what happens in the next few Syria And Libya as well. We will see what happens in the next few days | what happens in the next few days after the Prime Ministers meeting with the italian Prime Minister. Lets talk about ukraine. Presents talansky has made it clear long range missiles given by the western allies been fired into russia. ,. ,. , western allies been fired into russia,. ,. ,. , western allies been fired into russia. ,. ,. ,. ,. , russia. Should we do that . Just a step back. Russia. Should we do that . Just a step back. It russia. Should we do that . Just a step back. It is russia. Should we do that . Just a step back, it is hugely russia. Should we do that . Just a step back, it is hugely importantl step back, it is hugely important for me to be there with Antony Blinken this week. This is the first visit that a us Secretary Of State and Foreign Secretary have made together for well over 15 years. It was important because as we head out of the autumn and into the winter, with Putin Firing horrendously on the Energy Supplies within ukraine, killing civilians now in lviv and proboscis. It is hugely important we understand and support ukraine with the strategy to win going into next spring. That is why we headed to the White House as well. The important thing is the money and the money right through to 2025. We pledged 3 Billion for military equipment. Zelensky wants missiles, we have pledged another 650 brimstone missiles. He wants munitions, we have sent their munitions and he wanted more artillery and we have sent more guns. He has been raising theissue sent more guns. He has been raising the issue about the long range missiles particularly. It is important we are discussing this with allies and understanding how this would or would not contribute to the strategy to repel putin. President zelensky is very clear that this is something he needs and he has been, as you have said, for around a year. He says he needs it to win, you have said he must have everything he needs to win, so would you give permission . You could go it alone, the british government could Say Yes now. Lltluliiiii alone, the british government could Say Yes how alone, the british government could Say Yes now. Will you . There are two asects to Say Yes now. Will you . There are two aspects to that. Say yes now. Will you . There are two aspects to that, it Say Yes now. Will you . There are two aspects to that, it is Say Yes now. Will you . There are two aspects to that, it is important aspects to that, it is important that as allies supporting ukraine, we have a shared strategy to win going forward. We have been discussing this with the united states and with other key allies, but we head to the Un General Assembly where we will all meet with Zelensky In just over 12 days time. Zelensky in ust over 12 days time. Zelensky in ust over 12 days time. ,. ,. , time. The point here, Foreign Secretary. Time. The point here, Foreign Secretary. As time. The point here, Foreign Secretary, as we time. The point here, Foreign Secretary, as we have time. The point here, Foreign Secretary, as we have heard. Time. The point here, Foreign L secretary, as we have heard from time. The point here, Foreign Secretary, as we have heard from an incredibly senior Military Man this morning, it is disappointing the Action Hasnt been taken yet, you have heard it from President Zelensky himself, he wrote it is difficult to repeatedly hear we are working on this when putin is repeatedly burning down our towns and cities. ,. ,. ,. ,. , and cities. Novo is one with any one wea on. And cities. Novo is one with any one Weapon Itut and cities. Novo is one with any one weapon. But this and cities. Novo is one with any one weapon. But this one and cities. Novo is one with any one weapon. But this one might and cities. Novo is one with any one weapon. But this one might make i and cities. Novo is one with any one weapon. But this one might make a | weapon. But this one might make a big difference weapon. But this one might make a big difference. It weapon. But this one might make a big difference. It is weapon. But this one might make a big difference. It is important weapon. But this one might make a big difference. It is important we i big difference. It is important we su ort big difference. It is important we sopport the big difference. It is important we support the ukrainians big difference. It is important we support the ukrainians to big difference. It is important we support the ukrainians to repel L Support the ukrainians to repel russia in the black sea. It is important that they can deal with the huge challenges in the air that are being mounted by russia and, of course, we support them, and we have, with training of their own men and women on the front Line. 45,000 we have train, more than any other nation. I we have train, more than any other nation. , we have train, more than any other nation. , ,. , nation. I am not disputing that hasnt been nation. I am not disputing that hasnt been a nation. I am not disputing that hasnt been a lot nation. I am not disputing that hasnt been a lot of nation. I am not disputing that hasnt been a lot of help nation. I am not disputing that hasnt been a lot of help but. Nation. I am not disputing that L Hasnt been a lot of help but this is about the help that which pace is supplied. Viewers know there is a pattern, zelensky asked for tanks in 2022, they arrive from the us in september 2023. They asked for missiles in 2022, they arrive in april 2024, missiles in 2022, they arrive in april2024, He Missiles in 2022, they arrive in april 2024, he asked for Fighter Jets and they got them last month. For all the places go, i can understand you want to work with allies and work it through, but the pace of that has meant the war has continued with terrible loss of life on both sides. And surely you must accept that that allows putin to Carry On as he sees fit . Because i was in the Carry On as he sees fit . Because i was in the Role Carry on as he sees fit . Because i was in the role as Carry On as he sees fit . Because i was in the role as Shadow Carry on as he sees fit . Because i was in the role as Shadow Spokesman on Foreign Affairs and i was in ukraine prior to the war, let me say this also, many said that ukraine would last three days. And it is because of that combine support by the allies that we have confounded those critics. Yes, many said Ann Putin said dont give them tanks. We didnt listen to that, we have supported ukraine with tanks. Dont give them uavs. We have supported ukraine with missiles. They needed more shells, we are doing that as well. This request from zelensky for long range missiles is a long standing request, he has been making this now for over a year. What is important is allies can come together with President Zelensky and the ukrainians to assess what is needed now and give them the advantage in kursk, given the desire to keep proboscis. Clearly, ukraine has taken back half of the territory that russia took in the donbas. Again, a major advance. We want to put ukraine in the strongest position going forward. I cannot tell you operationally on air what we will or wont do. I particularly wont do that at a time when russia is buying ballistic missiles from iran and escalating further. But please understand this is under careful discussion with the ukrainians, as we assess what they need as they head into winter. There is so much we need as they head into winter. There is so much we want need as they head into winter. There is so much we want to need as they head into winter. There is so much we want to talk need as they head into winter. There is so much we want to talk about, i is so much we want to talk about, but before we move on, do you think putin is lying when he threatens there would be nuclear consequences if that request is granted . Are i think what putin is doing is throwing dust into the air. There is a lot of bluster. That is his modus operandi. He threatens about thanks, he threatens about missiles, he threatens about nuclear weapons. And we cannot be blown off caused by an imperialist fascist, who wants to move into countries willy nilly. And with correct or if we let in with ukraine, believe me, he will not stop there. Ukraine, believe me, he will not stop there stop there. You have already travelled stop there. You have already travelled to stop there. You have already travelled to israel stop there. You have already travelled to israel twice i stop there. You have already travelled to israel twice and | stop there. You have already i travelled to israel twice and the situation in the Middle East is a huge concern. Nobody can forget the horror of what happened to israelis last year, nor can anyone be unaffected by seeing images of what is happening in gaza. You have repeatedly called for a ceasefire. There is no sign of progress towards that. Do you believe they can be a ceasefire for as long as Benjamin Netanyahu is in charge in israel . Well look, let me repeat today my call that we need a ceasefire and it must happen now. I have been saying that since december. The reason i keep going back to the region, and of course speaking to the egyptian borough and the qataris, is to try to bring back. In discussion with president biden Antony Blinken, they believe the deal is 90 there. It is there. This is the deal that could be accepted. But yes, you are absolutely right, in The End it comes down to Benjamin Netanyahu. I have to say the murder of those beautiful six young hostages at this stage was just devastating and awful. But i say to hamas, and of course, to netanyahu, let us accept the deal, lets move into phase one. And begin the negotiations that had, of course, to the proper security that israel needs. But also, the Palestinian State that is the just because of the palestinian people. As youve mentioned a lot you are in talks with the White House, and your counterpart Antony Blinken, and i know you follow american politics very closely, of course any british government would work with whoever is in the White House, you have said that before, but Donald Trump, who is running again, made claims that were not true this week about haitian immigrants in ohio eating pets. They have now been Bomb Threats against schools in ohio because of what he said. What you think of that kind of campaigning . I am here as Foreign Secretary. America is one of the most robust democracies in the world. They have a Lively Debate. This democracies in the world. They have a Lively Debate. A Lively Debate. This is more than a Lively Debate a Lively Debate. This is more than a Lively Debate though, a Lively Debate. This is more than a Lively Debate though, isnt a Lively Debate. This is more than a Lively Debate though, isnt it . I Lively Debate though, isnt it . Youve got Piers Morgan on the panel. I am sure he will give you his view. I am not going to give you mine becausejust coming out his view. I am not going to give you mine because just coming out of a General Election i was not keen to hear american politicians commenting on our politics, and we have a pretty robust politics as well. So thatis pretty robust politics as well. So that is the position. You can push me but i am not going to stray into The American democracy and the Ups And Downs that i have been following for well over 30 years, all american elections, lots of get or lots of things god said, that is a matter for them. , � ,. ,. , for them. Isnt this more than the normal ops for them. Isnt this more than the normal ups and for them. Isnt this more than the normal Ups And Downs for them. Isnt this more than the normal Ups And Downs of for them. Isnt this more than the i normal Ups And Downs of campaigning . It is a man who wants to get back to the White House who has been circulating claims that appear to be causing harm to people, and making claims that are not true. You are a lifelong campaigner against racism. I think people watching this morning would hope that you would call this out for what it appears to be . We have out for what it appears to be . Have been talking about lives in ukraine and about lives in gaza and in the Middle East. Those hostages that are still held. That is the sober reality of being the uk Foreign Secretary. The Ups And Downs of The American political system, the language used, is a matter for them. I will work with whoever The Americans produce as their leader. And of course the eventual Secretary Of State. For the interests of global security. Of state. For the interests of global security. People will hear loud and clear global security. People will hear loud and clear you global security. People will hear loud and clear you dont global security. People will hear loud and clear you dont want i global security. People will hear loud and clear you dont want to touch that with a Barge Pole and make their own mind up as to whether or not they would like our senior politicians to take a stand. I must ask you about something else happening in politics here. The Labour Party has made a lot of play for the last few years of misdemeanours or bad standards or bad behaviour in the conservative party. What are our view meant to think that when they see the Prime Minister didnt tear outfits giving to his wife by a wealthy donor . What are they meant to think of that . ,. , ~ donor . What are they meant to think of that . ,. , ~. ,. Donor . What are they meant to think of that . ,. , ~. ,. , of that . Look, i would say to them that the prime of that . Look, i would say to them that the Prime Minister of that . Look, i would say to them that the Prime Minister to of that . Look, i would say to them that the Prime Minister to declare | that the Prime Minister to declare funds that he received from lord alli. He has then gone back to the parliamentary commissioner to further check details on some of those ones that have made their way to his wife. So he has done that. And he is seeking to comply with the rules. So, this is not an issue of transparency. He is attempting to be transparent. The truth is in our system, i havejust come back from the united states where us President S and first ladies have a huge budget paid for by the taxpayer, so that they look their best on behalf of the us people. We dont have that system over here. The truth is that successive Prime Ministers, unless you are a billionaire like The Last One, you rely on donations, political donations, so they can look their best, both in the hope of representing the country during the opposition or as Prime Minister. But in effect these standards arent exactly brooke. He had a big senior job. Exactly brooke. He had a big senior ob. �. , , job. Im not suggesting the Prime Minister is broken. Job. Im not suggesting the Prime Minister is broken. The job. Im not suggesting the Prime Minister is broken. The point i job. Im not suggesting the Prime Minister is broken. The point is i minister is broken. The point is this, that successive Pmi S Minister is broken. The point is this, that successive pmi 5 want to look their best and their partners for the country. That is what lies behind this. And Lord Ali is a long standing pier. He has been in the House Of Lords for well over two decades and he is probably the most long Standing Donor of the Labour Party. His politics are clear. Everyone knows him in westminster. And we thank him for the work that he continues to do on behalf of our party. He continues to do on behalf of our. A , he continues to do on behalf of our party. David lammy, so much we want to talk to your party. David lammy, so much we want to talk to your bed. Party. David lammy, so much we want to talk to your bed. You party. David lammy, so much we want to talk to your bed. You are party. David lammy, so much we want to talk to your bed. You are going i to talk to your bed. You are going to talk to your bed. You are going to china later in the year. It would be great if you could come back and talked about that. Thank you for talking to us this morning. What did you think of what he had to say on those topics . Let us know. Email us at kuenssberg bbc. Co. Uk, or on social use the Hashtag Bbclaurak and well try and share some of of the conversation later in the show. Peers, what did yOu Make of what he had to say about ukraine . No decision yet, it seems he was understanding about what President Zelensky was asking for but not willing to grant it . Let zelensky was asking for but not willing to grant it . Willing to grant it . Let me congratulate willing to grant it . Let me congratulate mr willing to grant it . Let me congratulate Mr Lambie i willing to grant it . Let me congratulate Mr Lambie unbecoming diplomatic now that he has got his new political title. He certainly didnt seem to be. To me there is a kind of moral inconsistency between saying as a government, we should give ukraine everything they need to finish the job to win this war, and then to procrastinate and Dither And Delay over a particular type of weaponry which President Zelensky says is essential to their ability to do that. So to me, if we are in this, we are in this. If we genuinely believe we should be upholding and defending freedom and democracy, as i believe we absolutely should, when a Southern European Democratic country is illegally invaded, we should give President Zelensky what he wants. John, how do our leaders stop the war going on in ukraine forever . It is clear they are in a bind. There is clear they are in a bind. There is a reluctance to do anything like but western troops on the Ground. There is also a reluctance to provide weapons. How do they bring it to an end . The provide weapons. How do they bring it to an end . It to an end . The first thing they do is they should it to an end . The first thing they do is they should not it to an end . The first thing they do is they should not signal i it to an end . The first thing they do is they should not signal this| do is they should not signal this kind of do is they should not signal this kind of ditherand do is they should not signal this kind of dither and a dilemma. They need kind of dither and a dilemma. They need to kind of dither and a dilemma. They need to be kind of dither and a dilemma. They need to be firm in the signals they sent need to be firm in the signals they sent. Interestingly, the Foreign Secretary sent. Interestingly, the Foreign Secretary mentioned tanks. That was a red secretary mentioned tanks. That was a red Line-secretary'>Line Secretary mentioned tanks. That was a red Line. We dithered, eventually we gave a red Line. We dithered, eventually we gave them. Then there was the aircraft we gave them. Then there was the aircraft it we gave them. Then there was the aircraft. It was a red Line, We Dithered aircraft. It was a red Line, We Dithered and eventually we gave it to them dithered and eventually we gave it to them. Here we are with missiles. We are to them. Here we are with missiles. We are dithering. My guess is eventually they will be provided. I think eventually they will be provided. I think they eventually they will be provided. I think they probably will. What we should think they probably will. What we should be doing is being firm from the outset should be doing is being firm from the outset. I would also say that the outset. I would also say that the ongoing conflict, internal recruiting in ukraine, getting the right recruiting in ukraine, getting the right levels of manpower, and there is making right levels of manpower, and there is making sure the ukrainians are properly is making sure the ukrainians are properly supplied, particularly in Air Defence and in ammunition. We need Air Defence and in ammunition. We need to Air Defence and in ammunition. We need to sustain them across the Board Need to sustain them across the board we need to sustain them across the board. We need to send very firm signals board. We need to send very firm signals and board. We need to send very firm signals and everything that we do and we signals and everything that we do and we are not doing that at the moment and we are not doing that at the moment. ,. ,. ,. , moment. How would we bring it to a conclusion . Moment. How would we bring it to a conclusion . It moment. How would we bring it to a conclusion . It is moment. How would we bring it to a conclusion . It is one moment. How would we bring it to a conclusion . It is one thing moment. How would we bring it to a conclusion . It is one thing giving i conclusion . It is one thing giving zelensky things that he wants. 0n Zelensky Things that he wants. On his Shopping ListForeign Secretary said the uk and the us couldnt be like an amazon warehouse. But beyond weaponry, how can the west bring it to an end . ~. ,. , to an end . Well, at the Moment Ukraine is to an end . Well, at the Moment Ukraine is not to an end . Well, at the Moment Ukraine is not winning to an end . Well, at the Moment Ukraine is not winning or to an end . Well, at the Moment Ukraine is not winning or losing. | ukraine is not winning or losing. Russia ukraine is not winning or losing. Russia are ukraine is not winning or losing. Russia are not winning or losing. An Provider Russia are not winning or losing. An provider that russia are not winning or losing. An provider that we continue to sustain Ukraine Provider that we continue to sustain ukraine in provider that we continue to sustain ukraine in the way that we should, i guess ukraine in the way that we should, i guess is ukraine in the way that we should, i guess is that will continue. And therefore. Guess is that will continue. And therefore, that leads you to the view therefore, that leads you to the view that therefore, that leads you to the view that eventually they must be some view that eventually they must be some Sort View that eventually they must be some sort of negotiated settlement. And the some sort of negotiated settlement. And the question of winning or losing. And the question of winning or losing. I and the question of winning or losing, i suspect, and the question of winning or losing, isuspect, is and the question of winning or losing, i suspect, is not something that we losing, i suspect, is not something that we will losing, i suspect, is not something that we will be able to achieve. 0ne that we will be able to achieve. One has to that we will be able to achieve. One has to remember that if one is on the defensive in a war, you are likely the defensive in a war, you are likely to the defensive in a war, you are likely to be the defensive in a war, you are likely to be able to sustain that Line likely to be able to sustain that Line so likely to be able to sustain that Line. So my guess is there will be no decisive Line. So my guess is there will be no decisive win or loss, it would result no decisive win or loss, it would result in no decisive win or loss, it would result in some kind of stalemate and negotiation. Result in some kind of stalemate and neuotiation. � ,. ,. ,. , negotiation. Lets move on to the Middle East negotiation. Lets move on to the Middle East. John, negotiation. Lets move on to the Middle East. John, i negotiation. Lets move on to the Middle East. John, i know negotiation. Lets move on to the Middle East. John, i know you i negotiation. Lets move on to the i Middle East. John, i know you have come back from a visit. Ava, the issue of Israel And Gaza has been troublesome for a long time for the british left. Since the government has moved in they have suspended some Arms Sales to israel. But do you think this is still a tricky balance for the Labour Government . Well, not even 10 of those Arms Export well, not even 10 of those Arms Export licences well, not even 10 of those Arms Export licences were. Well, not even 10 of those Arms Export licences were. It well, not even 10 of those Arms Export licences were. It is Export Licences were. It is extraordinary Export Licences were. It is extraordinary. We extraordinary. We are talking about dither and extraordinary. We are talking about Dither And Delay extraordinary. We are talking about Dither And Delay with extraordinary. We are talking about Dither And Delay with supplying i Dither And Delay with supplying weapons Dither And Delay with supplying weapons to Dither And Delay with supplying weapons to ukraine. Dither and delay with supplying weapons to ukraine. We Dither And Delay with supplying weapons to ukraine. We have i Dither And Delay with supplying i weapons to ukraine. We have no problem weapons to ukraine. We have no problem at weapons to ukraine. We have no problem at all weapons to ukraine. We have no problem at all with weapons to ukraine. We have no problem at all with continuing i weapons to ukraine. We have no problem at all with continuing Toi Problem at all with continuing to Supply Problem at all with continuing to supply Weapons Problem at all with continuing to Supply Weapons to problem at all with continuing to Supply Weapons to israel problem at all with continuing to Supply Weapons to israel that i problem at all with continuing to| Supply Weapons to israel that are being Supply Weapons to israel that are being used Supply Weapons to israel that are being used to Supply Weapons to israel that are being used to flatten Supply Weapons to israel that are being used to flatten gaza. Supply weapons to israel that are being used to flatten gaza. And i Supply Weapons to israel that are i being used to flatten gaza. And the reason being used to flatten gaza. And the reason we being used to flatten gaza. And the reason we dont being used to flatten gaza. And the reason we dont mind being used to flatten gaza. And the reason we dont mind that being used to flatten gaza. And the reason we dont mind that is being used to flatten gaza. And the reason we dont mind that is russia is a nuclear reason we dont mind that is russia is a nuclear Power Reason we dont mind that is russia is a nuclear Power And Reason we dont mind that is russia is a nuclear power and quite reason we dont mind that is russia is a nuclear power and quite simply| is a nuclear power and quite simply we dont is a nuclear power and quite simply we dont have is a nuclear power and quite simply we dont have that is a nuclear power and quite simply we dont have that same is a nuclear power and quite simply we dont have that same thread i is a nuclear power and quite simply. We dont have that same thread from gaza or we dont have that same thread from gaza or palestine. We dont have that same thread from gaza or palestine. This we dont have that same thread from gaza or palestine. This is gaza or palestine. This is extraordinary gaza or palestine. This is extraordinary tricky gaza or palestine. This is extraordinary tricky Issue Gaza or palestine. This is. Extraordinary tricky issue for labour~ extraordinary tricky issue for labour~ they extraordinary tricky issue for labour. They are extraordinary tricky issue for labour. They are not extraordinary tricky issue for labour. They are not being i extraordinary tricky issue for. Labour. They are not being bold enough. Labour. They are not being bold enough. They labour. They are not being bold enough, they are labour. They are not being bold enough, they are not labour. They are not being bold enough, they are not being i labour. They are not being bold i enough, they are not being brave enough enough, they are not being brave enough david enough, they are not being brave enough. David lammy enough, they are not being brave enough. David lammy has enough, they are not being brave enough. David lammy has long. Enough, they are not being brave i enough. David lammy has long said on enough. David lammy has long said on he enough. David lammy has long said on he has enough. David lammy has long said on. He has been enough. David lammy has long said on. He has been at enough. David lammy has long said on. He has been at every enough. David lammy has long saidi on. He has been at every palestine event on. He has been at every palestine event for on. He has been at every palestine event for probably on. He has been at every palestine event for probably the on. He has been at every palestine event for probably the last on. He has been at every palestine event for probably the last decade. I event for probably the last decade. I event for probably the last decade. I have event for probably the last decade. I have been event for probably the last decade. I have been covering event for probably the last decade. I have been covering a event for probably the last decade. I have been covering a palestine i i have been covering a palestine events i have been covering a palestine events for i have been covering a palestine events for the i have been covering a palestine events for the last i have been covering a palestine events for the last decade. I i have been covering a palestinel events for the last decade. In The Malmedy events for the last decade. In The Malmedy becomes events for the last decade. In The Malmedy becomes foreign events for the last decade. In the I Malmedy becomes Foreign Secretary events for the last decade. In The Malmedy becomes Foreign Secretary he becomes malmedy becomes Foreign Secretary he becomes guiet~ malmedy becomes Foreign Secretary he becomes quiet. What malmedy becomes Foreign Secretary he becomes quiet. What is becomes quiet. What is extraordinary, becomes quiet. What is extraordinary, when i becomes quiet. What is extraordinary, when he| becomes quiet. What is extraordinary, when he was in becomes quiet. What is extraordinary, when he was in the shadow extraordinary, when he was in the Shadow Position extraordinary, when he was in the Shadow Position he extraordinary, when he was in the Shadow Position he lobbied extraordinary, when he was in the Shadow Position he lobbied davidi Shadow Position he lobbied David CameronShadow Position he lobbied David Cameron to Shadow Position he lobbied David Cameron to publish Shadow Position he lobbied David Cameron to publish to Shadow Position he lobbied David Cameron to publish to the Shadow Position he lobbied David Cameron to publish to the arms i cameron to publish to the Arms Export cameron to publish to the Arms Export licenses. Cameron to publish to the Arms Export licenses. He cameron to publish to the Arms Export licenses. He wanted cameron to publish to the Arms Export licenses. He wanted to i cameron to publish to the Arms Export licenses. He wanted to know the Information-export'>Information Export licenses. He wanted to know the Information now export licenses. He wanted to know the Information now that export licenses. He wanted to know the Information now that he export licenses. He wanted to know the Information now that he is the Information now that he is foreign the Information now that he is Foreign Secretary the Information now that he is Foreign Secretary he the Information now that he is Foreign Secretary he is the Information now that he is Foreign Secretary he is also i Foreign Secretary he is also refusing Foreign Secretary he is also refusing to Foreign Secretary he is also refusing to publish Foreign Secretary he is also refusing to publish that refusing to publish that Information. Refusing to publish that Information. Refusing to publish that Information. , , , refusing to publish that Information. , , f. , Information. They did suspend 1096 of licenses, Information. They did suspend 1096 of licenses. So Information. They did suspend 1096 of licenses, so there Information. They did suspend 1096 of licenses, so there is Information. They did suspend 1096 of licenses, so there is a Information. They did suspend 1096 of licenses, so there is a difference licenses, so there is a difference in approach from this common. Do you feel this will continue to be troublesome for labour from the backbenches . I troublesome for labour from the backbenches . Troublesome for labour from the backbenches . Backbenches . I think its tricky because i have backbenches . I think its tricky because i have had backbenches . I think its tricky because i have had such backbenches . I think its tricky because i have had such a backbenches . I think its tricky because i have had such a massive intake because i have had such a massive intake with because i have had such a massive intake with 2024 because i have had such a massive intake with 2024 mps because i have had such a massive intake with 2024 mps and because i have had such a massive intake with 2024 mps and there i because i have had such a massive intake with 2024 mps and there is| intake with 2024 mps and there is not that intake with 2024 mps and there is not that many intake with 2024 mps and there is not that many left intake with 2024 mps and there is not that many left of intake with 2024 mps and there is not that many left of the intake with 2024 mps and there is not that many left of the socialist| not that many left of the socialist campaign not that many left of the socialist Campaign Groun not that many left of the socialist Campaign Group a not that many left of the socialist Campaign Group. A lot not that many left of the socialist Campaign Group. A lot of them i not that many left of the socialist| Campaign Group. A lot of them are actually Campaign Group. A lot of them are actually suspended. Campaign group. A lot of them are actually suspended. We Campaign Group. A lot of them are actually suspended. We dont Campaign Group. A lot of them are i actually suspended. We dont have Campaign Group. A lot of them are i actually suspended. We dont have an election actually suspended. We dont have an election coming actually suspended. We dont have an election coming up actually suspended. We dont have an election coming up any actually suspended. We dont have an election coming up any more, actually suspended. We dont have an election coming up any more, so actually suspended. We dont have an election coming up any more, so it i election coming up any more, so it is not election coming up any more, so it is not too election coming up any more, so it is not too much election coming up any more, so it is not too much of election coming up any more, so it is not too much of a election coming up any more, so it is not too much of a threat. Election coming up any more, so it is not too much of a threat. The i is not too much of a threat. The Storm Troopers is not too much of a threat. The Storm Troopers may is not too much of a threat. Storm troopers may be is not too much of a threat. Storm troopers may be obedient is not too much of a Threat Storm troopers may be obedient for them. John, you have huge military experience. You have been to the Middle East and scenes of the conditions on the Ground. He wrote a very interesting piece in the times this week. We had a certain view before your visit and a certain view after. ~. Before your visit and a certain view after. , after. What changed . Some of my views changed. After. What changed . Some of my views changed. A after. What changed . Some of my views changed. A bit after. What changed . Some of my views changed. A bit of after. What changed . Some of my views changed. A bit of context. I after. What changed . Some of my l views changed. A bit of context. The first thing views changed. A bit of context. The first thing we did was visit of the sites first thing we did was visit of the sites of first thing we did was visit of the sites of the 7th Of October massacre. We saw videos taken from hamas massacre. We saw videos taken from hamas fighters, terrorists, with heads hamas fighters, terrorists, with Heads Being Cut Off with holes and knives. Heads being cut off with holes and knives, women and children being murdered~ knives, women and children being murdered. We then went to speak to some murdered. We then went to speak to some of murdered. We then went to speak to some of the murdered. We then went to speak to some of the parents of the hostages. We then some of the parents of the hostages. We then went from there and had a trriefing we then went from there and had a briefing from the general who had Ust Briefing from the general who had just come briefing from the general who had just come back from commanding all the forces just come back from commanding all the forces in gaza. He described an operational the forces in gaza. He described an operational environment which i have never operational environment which i have never seen operational environment which i have never seen before. In places like faiiuiah never seen before. In places like fallujah back in 2004, we dealt with Suicide Fallujah back in 2004, we dealt with Suicide Bombers hiding behind civilian Suicide Bombers hiding behind civilian shields, booby traps everywhere. But the difference in gaza is everywhere. But the difference in gaza is the extraordinary Tunnel Mechanisms that they have there. 200 kilometres mechanisms that they have there. 200 kilometres discovered so far, potentially up to 500 kilometres, underneath a piece of Ground 25 miles underneath a piece of Ground 25 Mites Hy underneath a piece of Ground 25 miles by seven. Those tunnels are popping miles by seven. Those tunnels are popping up miles by seven. Those tunnels are popping up either side of his early troops popping up either side of his early troops and popping up either side of his early troops and behind them. So an extraordinarily complex environment. And of extraordinarily complex environment. And of course, urban and one of the most and of course, urban and one of the most built up areas in the world. And yet most built up areas in the world. And yet our most built up areas in the world. And yet our viewers will think that day after day we see the images of appalling destruction, devastating loss of life going on and on . It is loss of life going on and on . It is absolutely loss of life going on and on . It is absolutely dreadful. However, that hamas absolutely dreadful. However, that Hamas Thread continues to exist just on the Hamas Thread continues to exist just on the edge of israeli homes. There is no on the edge of israeli homes. There is no question that they had to go in and is no question that they had to go in and deat is no question that they had to go in and deal with that threat. Now we then went in and deal with that threat. Now we then went from there to look at the way in then went from there to look at the way in which they were interpreting the Rules Way in which they were interpreting the rules of conflict, the way they were the rules of conflict, the way they were Clearing Areas to goingto, the way they were Clearing Areas to goingto, the way they were holding people to account way they were holding people to account for when they transgressed. For example, in the central kitchen attack, for example, in the central kitchen attack, where people were killed. We then went attack, where people were killed. We then went into rough and spoke to people then went into rough and spoke to people about it. When we finished the trip. People about it. When we finished the trip, and i will come to my conversation with mr netanyahu, we said three conversation with mr netanyahu, we said three things too. First of all, there said three things too. First of all, There Witt said three things too. First of all, there will be tremendous scepticism about there will be tremendous scepticism about the there will be tremendous scepticism about the way in which israeli troops about the way in which israeli troops are conducting operations. They troops are conducting operations. They must troops are conducting operations. They must open up gaza to the World Polmac they must open up gaza to the World Poz Mac media to allow them to comment Poz Mac media to allow them to comment objectively and what is going comment objectively and what is going on they need to have a political objective, otherwise It Isjust vioience. Objective, otherwise It Isjust violence, more hate. You must have a plan for violence, more hate. You must have a plan for the violence, more hate. You must have a plan for the reconstruction of gaza and that plan for the reconstruction of gaza and that needs to be on the table now, and that needs to be on the table now. There and that needs to be on the table now, there needs to be conferences to gather now, there needs to be conferences to gather funds and getting resources together so they can move straight resources together so they can move straight in resources together so they can move straight in. Otherwise the 2 Million people straight in. Otherwise the 2 Million people who have been displaced will be suffering that for years to come. We had be suffering that for years to come. We had David Lammy reluctant to say a ceasefire was impossible that netanyahu still in charge, but some the political environment . I do, sadly because the political environment . I do, sadly because netanyahu the political environment . I do, sadly because netanyahu has i the political environment . I crr, sadly because netanyahu has some political interests at play. Whilst the israeli people support the military action against hamas, they also want him held to account at The End of this and that would mean he would lose hisjob. Secondly, he is facing ongoing Corruption Charges that have been put up a while this war is being conducted. On a personal level he knows the moment this is settled he is in a Court Room facing Corruption Charges. He is also being held to ransom, i would argue, by some very hard right head bangers in his cabinet who are talking in a genocidal way about what they would like to do in gaza. This is a situation where i think there isnt a plan for what happens at The End, they have levelled gaza pretty much to the Ground. 40,000 people who have been killed, many of whom were hamas, maybe 15 to 20,000, but thousands of gazans killed in the process. Half of the population are under 18 so thousands and thousands of children being killed in a way i have never seen in any conflict in the well. This has to end. I dont think netanyahu has a will, hamas are not interested in peace with israel, they want to build Everything Israel stands for. We will talk to you later in the programme about what happens with The American leadership. I ratiiiii The American leadership. I will answer the The American leadership. I will answer the question The American leadership. I will answer the question the The American leadership. Iin ll answer the question the Foreign Secretary refused to answer. We will hear that at secretary refused to answer. We will hear that at the secretary refused to answer. We will hear that at the End Secretary refused to answer. We will hear that at The End of secretary refused to answer. We will hear that at The End of the secretary refused to answer. We will hear that at The End of the show. Hear that at The End of the show. Thank you. The Election Didntjust put labour in charge, it changed the whole Set Up in parliament the lib dems became the third biggest party, nabbing dozens of seats from the tories, winning 72, their best ever result. The Leaders Trademark during the Eleciton Wasnt Strategy but stunts to grab attention and from the sight of him on a jetski at the start of the Partys Conference in brighton, theres no end to all that. A drier ed davey� s with us now. Good morning to you. Good morning, laura, i good morning to you. Good morning, laura. I am good morning to you. Good morning, laura, i am delighted good morning to you. Good morning, laura, i am delighted to good morning to you. Good morning, laura, i am delighted to be good morning to you. Good morning, laura, i am delighted to be on good morning to you. Good morning, laura, i am delighted to be on your. Laura, i am delighted to be on your programme, no wet suits today. Does this mean you programme, no wet suits today. Does this mean you will programme, no wet suits today. Does this mean you will not programme, no wet suits today. Does this mean you will not challenge the Labour Party now they are in government because you are too busy having a go at the tories . Ihla. Government because you are too busy having a go at the tories . Having a go at the tories . No, we will challenge having a go at the tories . No, we will challenge the having a go at the tories . No, we will challenge the labour having a go at the tories . No, we will challenge the Labour Party i having a go at the tories . No, we i will challenge the Labour Party when we disagree with them. They are so divided and going off to the right. What we will do is what we said during the General Election, we will keep the trust we built up. We will talk about the nhs and care, sewage and the cost of living. Already the government has made two big mistakes in those three areas at least and we will help them to account. On the cost of living, they are withdrawing the Winter Fuel Payment from millions of pensioners who are struggling when energy bills are going up by over 10 . We are opposing them on that. We are worried that in the nhs debate they are talking about reform before investment when we think there needs to be reform and investment. We will hold them to account, but we will be different from the conservatives, because being constructive means you have a different tone. You dont do the Yahoo Politics that people are sick of. We also put your alternatives forward. At pmqs last week when i was opposing the Governments Withdrawal of Winter Fuel Payments, will were saying there is a financial deficit left by there is a financial deficit left by the tories, we agree with you on that, but there are other ways to deal with that and we put them forward, ratherthan deal with that and we put them forward, rather than punishing pensioners. Forward, rather than punishing pensioners forward, rather than punishing ensioners. , forward, rather than punishing ensioners. ,. ,. ,. ,. , pensioners. Labour has a maority of 167 and they pensioners. Labour has a maority of 167 and they have i pensioners. Labour has a majority of 167 and they have suspended pensioners. Labour has a majority of 167 and they have suspended eight l 167 and they have suspended eight mps 167 and they have suspended eight mp5 for disagreeing with them on their own side. You said you want to be heard and be listened to in a different way, they dont have to listen to you, can you admit that . Anyone who is in british politics and sees that majority knows you have to do opposition in a particular way to get heard. I think the tone we are adopting, the fact that we are responsible for the mess created by the conservatives and the fact we will put forward ideas that we championed at the election, it gives a chance to get heard. A Record Number of mps, gives a chance to get heard. A Record Number of mp5, 72, the largest numberfor the Record Number of mp5, 72, the largest number for the liberal democrats for over 100 years, they will be champions for the local constituents. I said that at the election and they will get their voices heard. Election and they will get their voices heard. , voices heard. Can you actually get heard, voices heard. Can you actually get heard. Will voices heard. Can you actually get heard. Will you voices heard. Can you actually get heard, will you be voices heard. Can you actually get heard, will you be tough voices heard. Can you actually get heard, will you be tough enough . Voices heard. Can you actually get l heard, will you be tough enough . If we look at a practical example, when Rachel Reeves announced her review of public finances in july, Rachel Reeves announced her review of public finances injuly, she cut entirely those proposals on Social Care the conservatives had. I know how much you care about Social Care, labour dropped it and there has barely been a peep from your party, if it was a tory government that would have dropped plans, you would be going after them hammer and tongs . Taste be going after them hammer and tonas . ~. Be going after them hammer and tons . , tongs . We have criticised the government tongs . We have criticised the government for tongs . We have criticised the government for that, tongs . We have criticised the government for that, just tongs . We have criticised the government for that, just as l tongs . We have criticised the I Government for that, just as we criticise the conservatives for doing the same thing. What we have said is in the October The 30th budget, we need to see a budget for the nhs and for care. We are putting forward our ideas which will include investment in Social Care. It is essential. They talk about reform and i think they are right too, but we have got to get the right type of reform and we have argued and i think we are probably the only party arguing it is with this intensity, that Social Care is a critical part. The most important part of that reform. I dont believe you can sort out some of the problems in the hospitals where people cannot get this charge, people keep going back and it is a Revolving Door unless you sort out Social Care. That means better Care Homes, better care staff, domiciliary care services, taking Care Workers more. We set that out in our Election Campaign and we are going to be banging the drum for care and Social Care because we think that is the only way you can save the nhs. Mani; way you can save the nhs. Many viewers might way you can save the nhs. Many viewers might like way you can save the nhs. Many viewers might like the way you can save the nhs. Many viewers might like the Idea Way you can save the nhs. Many viewers might like the idea of. Way you can save the nhs. Many viewers might like the idea of that but it costs a lot of money. We have looked at the figures behind one of your main proposals, which is to provide free Personal Care in england to a similar way it is provided in scotland. You said it would cost 2. 7 billion, but experts we have checked with have said it will be more like six or 7 billion. You want to be seen as a more influential outfit, you need to look at your numbers because they dont quite Add Up . Ihla. At your numbers because they dont quite add op . At your numbers because they dont cuite Add U . ,. , quite Add Up . No, we had this debate in the election quite Add Up . No, we had this debate in the election and quite Add Up . No, we had this debate in the election and we quite Add Up . No, we had this debate in the election and we showed quite Add Up . No, we had this debate in the election and we showed our in the election and we showed our numbers are the right ones, i am happy to talk to the people who did your workings and show them are working. There is some money in the government tops, we were using that because it can be used for this work. Pot. In the analysis, if you do free Personal Care it saves the nhs by The End of this decade over £3 Billion a year because it frees up the nhs. It is so much cheaper to look after people in Care Homes or in their own homes in the way we are proposing. Our numbers are very robust, actually. I am happy to have that debate with the government and yourselves. I cannot stress enough, when i go to my local hospital in kingston, a well run hospital, Fantastic Care and great staff, their biggest challenge is they cannot find places for the people they have treated. They have elderly patients, disabled patients who shouldnt be in hospital, but they cannot go to a Care Home or their own homes because the Care Packages in there. What is so crazy about this and why it needs reform, it is more expensive to keep people in hospital, it is not good for them or theirfamilies. In hospital, it is not good for them ortheirfamilies. Our in hospital, it is not good for them or theirfamilies. Our reform or their families. Our Reform Proposals or theirfamilies. Our Reform Proposals are, i can take it in my constituency and other hospitals and communities across the country, are proposals of the right ones and we have been arguing for them. What really upsets me, laura, we actually managed to legislate for a lot of our reforms in 2014 in the care of� s act. The conservatives said they would back it. When they were by themselves after the 2015 General Election, theyjumped it totally. There is over1 million pensioners and disabled people who are not getting care now he would have done if the conservatives had kept to their word and followed the liberal democrat legislation. Having seen how the conservatives have failed so many pensioners and disabled people and failed the nhs because they didnt proceed with those Social Care reforms, i am didnt proceed with those Social Care reforms, lam more didnt proceed with those Social Care reforms, i am more determined than i have ever been to hold this new government to account on Social Care. ~ i. , care. 0k, david, thank you for oinin care. 0k, david, thank you for joining us care. 0k, david, thank you for joining us from care. 0k, david, thank you for joining us from a care. 0k, david, thank you for joining us from a beautifully i care. 0k, david, thank you for joining us from a beautifully sunny brighton. Great to have you on the programme. The numbers are from the independent experts, the Health Foundation questioned the lib dems figures. It is great to have you on the programme as your conference gets going. In a couple of weeks it will be the tories turn. But their party get together this year will be a Beauty Parade of the four contenders to be the partys next leader. Tom tugendhat we spoke to last week. The frontrunner right now seems to be robertjenrick, with Kemi Badenoch not far behind. But james cleverly� s fighting for the job too, and hes with us today. Lets start with long range missiles going to ukraine, should the uk be sending them to ukraine and allow them to use them in russia . Yes. I made this point them to use them in russia . Yes. I made this point when them to use them in russia . Yes. I made this point when i them to use them in russia . Yes. I made this point when i was them to use them in russia . Yes. I made this point when i was in made this point when i was in estonia last year, not far from the border with russia. I made the case that It Border with russia. I made the case Thatitis Border with russia. I made the case that it is untenable for ukraine to properly defend itself against tHe Missiles coming in from russia if it cant neutralise the launch sites and we are replaying this conversation now. It is very disappointing that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary went to the united states and came back without the commitment. You didnt do in back without the commitment. You didnt do in government, you said you are making the argument but the conservative government didnt do it . ~ conservative government didnt do it . , conservative government didnt do it . ~. ,. , conservative government didnt do it . ,. It . When i was Foreign Secretary, we constantly pushed it . When i was Foreign Secretary, we constantly pushed our it . When i was Foreign Secretary, we constantly pushed our allies it . When i was Foreign Secretary, we constantly pushed our allies to constantly pushed our allies to allow the ukrainians to do more. We pushed for main battle tanks, eventually got them. We pushed for jets. Eventually we gotjets. We push for the use of those long range missiles within ukraines territorial boundaries and we eventually got to that. We have been at the front edge of this constantly and as i say, this was back in may of last year when i said ukraine needs the ability to project force beyond its own borders. Lets needs the ability to project force beyond its own borders. Lets talk about the tory beyond its own borders. Lets talk about the tory party beyond its own borders. Lets talk about the tory party because beyond its own borders. Lets talk about the tory party because you | beyond its own borders. Lets talk i about the tory party because you are here because you want to be in charge, why do you think it went so wrong . We charge, why do you think it went so wron . ~ ,. , charge, why do you think it went so wront . , charge, why do you think it went so wronu . , wrong . We were very visibly at each other when wrong . We were very visibly at each other when we wrong . We were very visibly at each other when we should wrong . We were very visibly at each other when we should have wrong . We were very visibly at each other when we should have been i other when we should have been focusing on the british people. And through the summer i have been making it clear to the associations and the members i have been speaking to, that under my leadership we would do things fundamentally differently. We would make it clear our service is for the british people. This Blue On blue, the infighting and the Prime Ministers made it almost impossible for us to discuss the things we achieved in government and it amplified the things that went wrong. We need to do things differently. We need to coalesce around conservative values, reducing the Tax Burden and reducing reducing the Tax Burden and reducing red tape, unlocking the economic Force Power in the uk and being, with reference to the point you just made earlier, once again a really credible voice on the World Stage about defence. Meaning we have to spend 3 of gdp on defence. You about defence. Meaning we have to spend 396 of gdp on defence. You say ou are spend 396 of gdp on defence. You say you are defined spend 396 of gdp on defence. You say you are defined by spend 396 of gdp on defence. You say you are defined by your spend 396 of gdp on defence. You say you are defined by your infighting i you are defined by your infighting and you have said you were defined by scandal. One of the scandals earlier this year is that one of your donors, Frank Hester had said that diane abbott, the Labour Veteran empty made you want to hate all black women and should be shot. Frank hester donated a further £5 million to the conservative party. It seems he pretty much bankrolled the Election Campaign. You want to change things, would you accept donations from him in the future if you become leader . He donations from him in the future if you become leader . He apologised and admitted what you become leader . He apologised and admitted what he you become leader . He apologised and admitted what he said you become leader . He apologised and admitted what he said was you become leader . He apologised and admitted what he said was wrong. I you become leader . He apologised and admitted what he said was wrong. The | admitted what he said was wrong. The reason he donated to the conservative partys general Election Campaign was to protect the british people from the Labour Government we see now. That british people from the Labour Government we see now. That is not my question. Government we see now. That is not my question. If government we see now. That is not my question. If you government we see now. That is not my question, if you went government we see now. That is not my question, if you went would I Government we see now. That is not my question, if you went would you | my question, if you went would you accept donations from him in the future . ,. , � accept donations from him in the future . ,. , �. , future . The point im making is he donated to future . The point im making is he donated to our future . The point im making is he donated to our Campaign Future . The point im making is he donated to our campaign so i future . The point im making is he donated to our campaign so that L Future . The point im making is he| donated to our campaign so that we could protect the british people from the Labour Government, who are now taking money off pensioners, whose own donors are given passes to number ten, whose own donors are being brought into the Labour Government. Being brought into the Labour Government being brought into the Labour Government. Being brought into the labour covernment. , government. What people want to know, ou government. What people want to know. You are government. What people want to know, you are saying government. What people want to know, you are saying you government. What people want to know, you are saying you would I Government. What people want to l know, you are saying you would run government. What people want to i know, you are saying you would run a different tory party, you would be a different tory party, you would be a different leader, would that be one of the things you change . Can you give us a clear answer, would you accept more donations from Frank Hester . I accept more donations from Frank Hester . ,. , hester . I have not had any Discussions Hester . I have not had any discussions with hester . I have not had any discussions with frank I Hester . I have not had any i discussions with Frank Hester hester . I have not had any discussions with Frank Hester about the future. What he said was totally unacceptable, he has apologised for that. He has been a donor to the party, whether he is again in the future, i dont know. But the point is, what we are now seeing the Labour Party doing in government is rewarding their political donors with above Inflation Pay rises to their union bosses, passes to number ten and other government departments. That, ithink, is completely inappropriate. I see no such apology from the Labour Party for distorting our democratic system. D0 for distorting our democratic s stem. ,. , for distorting our democratic sstem. ,. , � , system. Do you think Frank Hesters comments are system. Do you think Frank Hesters comments are equivalent system. Do you think Frank Hesters comments are equivalent to system. Do you think Frank Hesters comments are equivalent to lady i comments are equivalent to lady Victoria Starmer having dresses donated to her by a wealthy donor are not being registered . The wealthy donor are not being registered . Ike wealthy donor was then are not being registered . Ii9 wealthy donor was then given a are not being registered . Ii9 wealthy donor was then given a pass to number ten to run free at the very heart of government, something that Frank Hester has not ever had. And that is the point. The point is, what he said was completely inappropriate, he has apologised, but the big different is, the Labour Party are paying back their donors both in terms of these above Inflation Pay rises to their union backers and privileged access to the people that fill their coffers. They would say that was to settle a long Running Pay Dispute is that the tories long Running Pay Dispute is that the tories didnt. If longRunning Pay Dispute is that the tories didnt tories didnt. If you were tory leader, tories didnt. If you were tory leader. Part tories didnt. If you were tory leader, part of tories didnt. If you were tory leader, part of your tories didnt. If you were tory leader, part of your pitch i tories didnt. If you were tory leader, part of your pitch is i tories didnt. If you were toryj leader, part of your pitch is to bring back the Rwanda Deal . Is that. . Bring back the Rwanda Deal . Is that. , , , that. That is not the only thing i am putting that. That is not the only thing i am putting forward. That. That is not the only thing i am putting forward. What that. That is not the only thing i am putting forward. What we i that. That is not the only thing i am putting forward. What we are | that. That is not the only thing i i am putting forward. What we are now seeinu is am putting forward. What we are now seeing is sadly am putting forward. What we are now seeing is sadly more am putting forward. What we are now seeing is sadly more fatalities am putting forward. What we are now seeing is sadly more fatalities in i seeing is sadly more fatalities in the channel overnight in the early hours of this morning. We have seen fatalities of illegal channel crossings going up, the numbers going up, because the very first action of this Labour Government was to scrap an international partnership which was deterring migrants. We know this because those migrants. We know this because those migrants told us so. And send out a signal to People Smugglers that the uk is open for them to ply their illegal trade. There uk is open for them to ply their illegal trade. Uk is open for them to ply their illeaaltrade. , illegal trade. Are you saying people died in the channel illegal trade. Are you saying people died in the Channel Today illegal trade. Are you saying people died in the Channel Today because l died in the Channel Today because labour got rid of the Rwanda Scheme . What i am saying is they came into government with no plan to stop the boats or smash the gangs. Saying stuff is not the same as doing stuff. They scrap the partnership of wanda, sending the wrong signal. With rwanda. There is still no commander. They havent recruited extra people for this body command. They have put into question the credibility of the national Crime Agency work. All completely contradictory. Agency work. All completely contradicto. ,. ,. , contradictory. You are competing for the ob of contradictory. You are competing for the job of tory contradictory. You are competing for the job of tory leader. Contradictory. You are competing for the job of tory leader. Theres i contradictory. You are competing for the job of tory leader. Theres a i the job of tory leader. Theres a lot we would like to talk about but we are nearly out of time. In one word, what is the most conservative thing about you . You word, what is the most conservative thing about you . Thing about you . You Cant Sum up Conservatives Thing about you . You Cant Sum up conservatives in thing about you . You Cant Sum up conservatives in one thing about you . You Cant Sum up conservatives in one word. Thing about you . You Cant Sum up conservatives in one word. The thing about you . You Cant Sum up l conservatives in one word. The point i am making, conservatives in one word. The point lam making, had conservatives in one word. The point i am making, had we not spent as much time talking about rwanda, is we have to rebalance the relationship between the state and the british people. On the current labour trajectory, taxes will need to go through the roof, exactly as we predicted at the General Election. We have to do things differently, have a smaller, better state. ,. ,. Differently, have a smaller, better state. ,. ,. , differently, have a smaller, better state. ,. , ,. , state. Small estate may be . Is that what im hearing . State. Small estate may be . Is that what im hearing . But state. Small estate may be . Is that what im hearing . But smaller state. Small estate may be . Is that what im hearing . But smaller and | what im hearing . But smaller and more auile what im hearing . But smaller and more agile state. What im hearing . But smaller and more agile state. And what im hearing . But smaller and more agile state. And a what im hearing . But smaller and more agile state. And a lower what im hearing . But smaller and more agile state. And a lower taxl more agile state. And a lower tax base, lower Tax Take from the british people. Base, lower Tax Take from the british people. Great to have you with us. British people. Great to have you with us as british people. Great to have you with us. As ever, british people. Great to have you with us. As ever, thank british people. Great to have you with us. As ever, thank you british people. Great to have you with us. As ever, thank you for i british people. Great to have you i with us. As ever, thank you for your time. Now for something completed different. James bonds 0, paddingtons voice, the doctor, adam, in the huge tv show, this is going to hurt. Ben whishaw� s been on our cinema screens and in our living rooms in many different roles, often seen as one of the best british actors right now. But now hes taking on the theatre classic waiting for godot a play everyone� s heard of, but how many understand . I met ben and his co star, lucian msamati. So why do they think the show is relevant right now . Doing the play now in 2024, Post Covid lands very differently. I think all of us, in a way, most of us at least can relate to waiting because thats what we did during lockdown. Ben, it was this play, as i understand it, that actually made to a great extent you want to be an actor . Yeah, it was. It had such a profound impact on me that i changed my direction, i guess, in my life. And thats why i really feel very passionately. I would love for young people to come see our production. I do think it is a play that speaks to young people. It spoke to me anyway. Why do you think that is . I think that young people have all these questions, and theres so much that feels incredibly frightening about the world in a very raw way when youre young. And Thats Something this play goes right into about those things unashamedly. Although its a play thats quite bleak, theres something just in having those things, giving those things space, it feels strangely hopeful also. Yes. Youve both got other exciting projects coming up. Lucian, you are playing the Prime Ministers right Hand Man in a new drama called the choice. Indeed, yes. Our audience takes a keen interest in the kind of things that go on in westminster, all the shenanigans and power struggles. And what did you learn about that place . Well, i learnt that there is a team behind the team, behind the team. And that sometimes if we all knew how the sausage was actually made, we might not invest so heavily in the sausage. We might question the sourcing of the ingredients and we might demand a different sausage. We might all become vegans. I think ill get off thatjunction now. Laughter. Do you think politicians are actors, and if so, are they any good at it . Good acting is about telling the truth. And ill leave it at that. Thats an excellent dramatic pause. Um, ben, audiences will see you as vladimir, but lots of people watching also know you for all sorts of different reasons. They know you for q in the bond films, and they also know you as The Voice in paddington. Yes. Automated voice thank you for using photome. Thank you for having me. Please note that headwear is not permitted. Uh. It has been a massive smash and the new Film Paddington in peru is coming. But i have to ask you, can you promise kids of all ages that we will find out in the new film what really happened to Aunt Lucy . Yes. Can you tell us what it is . No. Absolutely cannot tell you. But you will find out. You will find out. And its. I think its a really beautiful film and im really excited for people to see it. Its gorgeous. And alongside that, people always want to know whether or not there will be another Bond Project that you will take part in . I dont think im going to be in the next one. I think theyre going to start all overagain and, you know, with a new cast, a completely new cast. I think . Thats my hunch, but i dont know. I have no idea. Would you like to do it again . Id do it if they asked me, but, yeah, i think it might need a kind of, you know, new lease of life and a whole new group of people. I think it could be good for it. But if they asked me, i would do it, of course, yeah. I just want to go back to something you both mentioned about the play, and youre both very clear that you want young people to come and see it. And in a world of glossy box sets and Information being blasted at us everywhere on social media or instagram, you know, some actors worry about people looking at their phones during performances, they worry about Peoples Ability to focus on theatre. What do you think about that, lucian . One of the great, uh, losses again, i refer to lockdown, was that we lost human connection um, and that we ended up going down, quite intensely, these digital rabbit holes. Stepping back into the theatre, so many actors, so many audience members spoke of the outpouring of emotion of seeing people again, of communing, of sharing those very special, very ephemeral moments that make us understand each other and make us see each other. These are the things that bring us together. This is where we see each other. And we dont do that here on our phones. We do that here. Ben, would you ban phones in theatres . Yeah, i mean, i dont understand what why it would be necessary to have your phone. I mean, youre there, youve paid to be there to watch something, you know . So, yeah, ifind it bizarre. It is incredibly bizarre. Because its such a beautiful thing if you give yourself over to that experience. And although it may be uncomfortable because were used to checking this damn thing all the time, i think theres a deeper pleasure to be got. Youve told us about how this was the play that really led you to become an actor. What do you think your 18 year old self would think of you walking on to this prestigious stage in this prestigious role . Oh, god, i mean, ithink he would be pretty. Very alarmed, very surprised, very thrilled. Kind of hard to believe. I mean, really, truly, very hard to believe. I feel very lucky, very privileged to be with this beautiful man and actor. I mean, it really is an amazing privilege to have a crack at this play. Yes. I dont think i would have believed it would happen, to be honest, yeah, when i was that age. Be careful what you wish for. Well, long may it continue and we wish all the very best with the production. Lucian msamati and ben whishaw, thank you so much for talking to us today. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Well, it was a huge pleasure to meet the two of them. As promised, we said we would talk about Donald Trumps bid to get back to the White House. There was a huge event this week with the debate. Kamala harris seemed to take the upper hand. What do you think is going on . Has seemed to take the upper hand. What do you think is going on . Do you think is going on . Has the balance shifted . Do you think is going on . Has the balance shifted . I do you think is going on . Has the balance shifted . I think do you think is going on . Has the balance shifted . I think it do you think is going on . Has the balance shifted . I think it is balance shifted . I think it is unbelievably tight as the last two were. I think at The End there will be a lot of noise about national polling and all the rest of it. Just look at the polling in the three swing states that really matter. Wisconsin, pennsylvania and michigan. It comes down to those. It may come down to tens of thousands of votes again. And those i think it is still strongs election to lose, despite the fact that he indisputably lost the debate this week because Kamala Harris played in his own game, she fed his narcissism, drew him into seeing some crazy stuff, she was prosecutorial in her style with him and she was certainly more impressive than a lot of people thought she might be. She held up to the donald. It is certainly wide open. Anyone who thinks they know what is going to happen in a race where we see an Assassination Attempt of one of the candidates, we have seen the other candidate pulled out, we have seen another incredible debate, they are fully birds. Anything can happen. What about the comments Donald Trump made . You said she lowered him into seeing some crazy things. He spread untrue things about haitian immigrants eating animals. Eating animals. Completely outrageous eating animals. Completely outrageous and eating animals. Completely outrageous and wrong eating animals. Completely outrageous and wrong to i eating animals. Completely. Outrageous and wrong to say eating animals. Completely outrageous and wrong to say that. There is no substantial evidence to support anything that he said about haitians eating pets. Theyre trying very hard to find some retrospectively but that story was debunked before he even said it. The worst thing for trump, he has becoming a laughing stock for saying it. The memes are exploding around the world. That doesnt help them. Ava, labourwould the world. That doesnt help them. Ava, labour would say now, of course they will work with everybody. A David Lammy another other politicians uses a very critical things about Donald Trump. What are they saying privately about the prospect ofjumping back in the White House . Prospect ofjumping back in the White House . ,. , , White House . They have quietly sided with the democrats White House . They have quietly sided with the democrats because White House . They have quietly sided with the democrats because labour i with the democrats because labour have been with the democrats because labour have been in with the democrats because labour have been in washington with the democrats because labour have been in washington this with the democrats because labour have been in washington this week| have been in washington this week advising have been in washington this week advising the have been in washington this week advising the democratic have been in washington this week advising the democratic campaignl have been in washington this week. Advising the democratic campaign of how they advising the democratic campaign of how they can advising the democratic campaign of how they can cut advising the democratic campaign of how they can cut through. Advising the democratic campaign of how they can cut through. They advising the democratic campaign of how they can cut through. They are i how they can cut through. They are advising how they can cut through. They are advising kamala how they can cut through. They are advising Kamala Harris how they can cut through. They are advising Kamala Harris to how they can cut through. They are advising Kamala Harris to focus how they can cut through. They are l advising Kamala Harris to focus more on cost advising Kamala Harris to focus more on cost of advising Kamala Harris to focus more on cost of living advising Kamala Harris to focus more on cost of living in advising Kamala Harris to focus more on cost of living in swing advising Kamala Harris to focus more on cost of living in swing states advising Kamala Harris to focus more on cost of living in swing states to i on cost of living in swing states to push on cost of living in swing states to push through on cost of living in swing states to push through the on cost of living in swing states to push through the message on cost of living in swing states to push through the message that i on cost of living in swing states toi push through the message that the Economy Push through the message that the economy can push through the message that the economy can grow push through the message that the economy can grow under push through the message that the economy can grow under the push through the message that the economy can grow under the democrats and not economy can grow under the democrats and not on economy can grow under the democrats and not on the economy can grow under the democrats and not on the trot. Economy can grow under the democrats and not on the trot. So economy can grow under the democrats and not on the trot. And not on the trot. So tacit support and not on the trot. So tacit support lastly and not on the trot. So tacit support. Lastly to and not on the trot. So tacit support. Lastly to you and not on the trot. So tacit support. Lastly to you as i and not on the trot. So tacit support. Lastly to you as a l and not on the trot. So tacit i support. Lastly to you as a former Deputy Commander of nato in europe, who would you rather have as commander in chief in the White House . ~ ,. , house . Well, i will ust qualify it Ifi Ma House . Well, i will ust qualify it in may with H House . Well, i will ust qualify it if i may with one i house . Well, i willjust qualify it if i may with one answer. House . Well, i willjust qualify it if i may with one answer. Tomsl if i may with one answer. Toms effect if i may with one answer. Toms effect on if i may with one answer. Toms effect on nato has been significant, particularly in terms of forcing nations particularly in terms of forcing nations to step up to the plate. The idea he nations to step up to the plate. The idea he is nations to step up to the plate. The idea he is completely negative about nato is idea he is completely negative about nato is unfounded. To answer your specific nato is unfounded. To answer your specific question, i would prefer somebody i knew was reliable and whose somebody i knew was reliable and whose judgment i thought was going to be something that could be reliable to be something that could be reliable in the long term. Male or female, general . Reliable in the long term. Male or female, general . Well, reliable in the long term. Male or female, general . Well, youre i reliable in the long term. Male or| female, general . Well, youre the olitical female, general . Well, youre the political commentator. Female, general . Well, youre the political commentator. Whatever i female, general . Well, youre the i political commentator. Whatever yOu Make political commentator. Whatever yOu Make of political commentator. Whatever yOu Make of that. We political commentator. Whatever yOu Make of that make of that. We are out of time with Ou Make of that. We are out of time with you three. Make of that. We are out of time with you three. Thank make of that. We are out of time with you three. Thank yOu Make of that. We are out of time with you three. Thank you so i make of that. We are out of time i with you three. Thank you so much indeed forjoining us today. Out of time as to whether or not you want to waste Prince Harry a happy birthday. I to waste Prince Harry a happy birthda. ,. ,. , birthday. I would rather not but i Wish Arsenal birthday. I would rather not but i Wish Arsenal a birthday. I would rather not but i Wish Arsenal a win birthday. I would rather not but i Wish Arsenal a win in birthday. I would rather not but i Wish Arsenal a win in the birthday. I would rather not but i Wish Arsenal a win in the North L Wish arsenal a win in the north london derby. The Prime Minister has a vested interest. He texted me last night and asked, are you going to the big game . Who night and asked, are you going to the big game . Night and asked, are you going to the big game . Who said the politics was still a boys the big game . Who said the politics was still a Boys Game . The big game . Who said the politics was still a Boys Game . Thank i the big game . Who said the politics was still a Boys Game . Thank you i the big game . Who said the politics| was still a Boys Game . Thank you all three very much indeed. Thank you for getting in touch. We love to hear from you. Theresa says, for goodness sake, why are wives of Prime Ministers, or any mp for that matter, allowed to accept gifts from donors . Lets see what happens with that story. Bob in wiltshire so while ukraine wait amid political indecision, how many more innocent people are slaughtered . Jonathan evans labour do not have the right to draw us into a war by allowing the ukrainians to fire these long range missiles into russia. You all at home understand that dilemma very clearly. Thank you to all our Guests Today and of course most of all thank you to you for watching in a week when it became obvious that while our election was dominated by affairs at home, the early months of this government could bejust early months of this government could be just as early months of this government could bejust as much early months of this government could be just as much shaped early months of this government could bejust as much shaped by events abroad. You can catch up on iplayer, and our big interview with Keir Starmer last week is on there too if you missed it. Join me and Paddy Oconnell on the new Cast Bbc sounds later. Look forward to seeing you next sunday, same time, at the Labour Conference in liverpool. See dan. Great to see you then. Live from london. This is bbc news. Eight people drown while trying to cross the channel from france to england. Its mission accomplished, the crew of the Space X Polaris returns to earth after 5 days in orbit. Deadly floods continue to cause havoc across central and eastern europe. The leader of the liberal Democrat Party says the Health Service needs billions more in annual funding or it faces decLine. The emmy awards take Place Tonight in Los Angeles with a Tv Drama are slow horses and the Crown And Baby reindeer among the nominations. Hello. Welcome to the program. French officials say at least eight people have died while trying to cross the channel from france to england. Their boast sank not far off the french coast. Reports say the incident occurred shortly after the overloaded vessel embarked on sunday. The eight victims bring the number of migrants who have died in the channel this year to a5. The Foreign SecretaryDavid Lammy gave his reaction to the deaths on the laura kuenssberg show. Its awful. Its a further loss of life. What i can say is actually before i left for ukraine with Antony Blinken, i sat with the Prime Minister, the home secretary, the Attorney General and others at the