Vladimir putin talks Vladimir Putin talks of restoring greatness of restoring greatness to what he calls the russian to what he calls the russian world an expansive Territory World an expansive territory which, as ukrainians know which, as ukrainians know to their cost, to their cost, stretches far beyond stretches far beyond russias current borders. Putins expansionist russias current borders. Putins Expansionist Nationalism requires military power, nationalism requires military power, but its harnessed the to February 2022. But its harnessed the cultural spiritual authority cultural spiritual authority of the russian of the russian Orthodox Church, too. Orthodox church, too. My guest, andrey kordochkin, my guest, andrey kordochkin, was a russian Orthodox Priest who spoke out against was a russian Orthodox Priest the ukraine war and the putinisation of his church. But is he swimming against but is he swimming against an unstoppable tide . An unstoppable tide . Andrey kordochkin, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Thank you. Its a great honour its a great Honour And Privilege to be here. Well, its great to have you and privilege to be here. In the studio. Let me take you back let me take you back to February 2022. Putin orders an all out invasion of ukraine. Within days, you, a priest in the russian Orthodox Church, choose to speak out against the invasion. When you did that, did you feel that this would be The End of your career in the russian Orthodox Church . I think that when the war has begun, very few of us could actually give a prediction of what is going to come through. So i think that many people would suggest that the war would be over in a very short period of time. So i dont think that any of us was acting out of any kind of prediction. And i think when i spoke out against the war, i dont think that i really felt any choice. I thought that it was a moral imperative on behalf of any christian or any sensible and reasonable person, to try to stop it, or at least not to be a part of what one may call a moraljustification of evil. But you didnt actually just speak out yourself. Within days, you were a co signatory to a declaration that, i think, involved almost 300 russian Orthodox Priests, who were opposed to this invasion. So, it wasnt just yourself. You were at the beginnings of creating a movement. Well, we tried to show that The Church is not really a communist party, when on the one side you have someone who speaks on behalf of everyone, and on the other side, you have the silence of the lambs. So, of course, i think many people were very much disappointed with the rhetoric that was taken by the officially by the Moscow Patriarchate. But we wanted to show that it is not the, um, entire russian orthodox community, laypeople and priests, who do support it. We thought that if the people are expecting to hear some christian evaluation of what is happening, if it doesnt come from above, it has to come from below. If you had such moral qualms, which you felt you had to express in the wake of February 2022, why hadnt you expressed them very much earlier . Afterall, russias Military Operations in ukraine began in 2014. The Annexation Of Crimea took place in 2014. I dont see you speaking out against that. It may happen that a war will be launched against a neighbouring country, which will be presented as defensive. Right, so thats my point, in a way. Wed had this sort of blessing of the weapons. We had the Patriarch Kirill and well talk some more about him, im sure, in the course of this interview, describing Putins Leadership as a miracle of god. We had catherine belton, an author whose book, putins people, is regarded as a definitive book on Putins Power in russia, talking about the way the russian Orthodox Church was promoted in Eastern Ukraine before and after 2014. You, as a priest in that church, serving in madrid, saw and heard all of these things. I just wonder why it took the invasion of 2022 to become a Tipping Point for you . Well, i think everyone has his own Tipping Point, and this was really the point of division, which required a choice on behalf of everyone, including the laity and the priests. But, you know, before that, before the full invasion of russia into ukraine has begun, all the russian church was really praying for Peace And Reconciliation in the east of ukraine. Was it, really . Was the Patriarch Kirill praying for peace . Well, these were the prayers that were in use, at least liturgically. And something has changed in a very radical way when the war has begun. And from the language of reconciliation, the official language has become that of victory. So, for example, most of the priests who are being repressed now in the russian church for not supporting the official line, they are being repressed because they refuse to read the so called prayer for the holy rus. And one of the most famous cases is when a priest changed only one word in the prayer. The Word Victory he changed for the word peace. And so he was then defrocked. Thats extraordinary. So by refusing to use the Word Victory and replacing it with the word peace, if you are a russian Orthodox Cleric inside russia, you will be punished and probably removed, will you . Indeed. And, at present, i do not know any clergyman in the russian Orthodox Church who would openly oppose the war and the pro war rhetoric, and would still remain at service. So, how many. The repressions are numerous. Of the almost 300 priests who signed that that declaration in the early days after the February 2022 invasion, how many of them were, like yourself, expatriate priests working in foreign churches within the russian Orthodox Church . And how many were actual priests serving inside Russia Itself . Well, i would say i dont remember the numbers exactly, but i would suggest that probably about 200 were in Russia Itself, and maybe about 100 would be outside of the country. But at least now. And whats happened to those 200 or so . How many of them do you think are still in The Church . Well, most of them, i think, would still be in The Church, but those who kept themselves public in their anti War Discourse were either suspended as priests or they were defrocked. So, for example, a friend of mine, a priest in dusseldorf in germany, and myself, we organised a foundation, which is called Mir Vsem Peace be unto all, in which we try to help the priests who are being repressed, who dont have any means to sustain their families. Some of them are in russia, so not all their names are in public, because they do not want to be public and attract attention of the ecclesiastical and of governmental bodies, but some of them had to emigrate. But, besides helping these people, we wanted to give them a voice, and we wanted to show, and we still want to show that the russian Orthodox Church is very far from supporting Putins Rhetoric in its fullness. Just to be clear about your own situation, you are no longer inside the russian Orthodox Church. Technically, i think, you resigned, but was it a genuine resignation, or were you pushed . Well, i was pushed because in the beginning of the year 2023, i was suspended as a priest by a secret resolution of the patriarch of moscow. So this came from kirill . This came from kirill directly. How do you know . Well, i know because i was then a diocesan secretary, so i know things. But, for me, it was a clear move that if this was a temporary suspension, then the indefinite one will come sooner or later. So then i realised that i have to go. Do you feel entirely safe now . I know youve moved from madrid, where you were running the russian Orthodox Cathedral in madrid. You now live in germany. We know that the russian government doesnt like dissidents, opponents, to be vocal, to be active, whether they are operating inside russia or very farfrom russia. Do you feel threatened in any way . Well, i wouldnt want to compare my own risks with the risk of the people who are physically in russia, and with the bravery of those people who are in russia. For example, with the people that i have met personally, the russian political prisoners who have been exchanged, on the one hand, and on the other hand, with the real risks of those people who remain in ukraine and defend their country. I just dont see myself in the same situation. What do you think the russian Orthodox Church makes of the fact that youre still preaching, albeit not in their church, but you are still an active Orthodox Priest, no longer tied to moscow . I didnt ask them. Do you use your pulpit to send a very clear message of opposition . Well, i dont think that the pulpit is meant for opposition. I think that the pulpit is meant to proclaim the gospel and to proclaim the christian vision. But if what you preach contradicts the official narrative, then you are being accused of participation in the opposition. But, of course, i still keep in touch with the russian media, both in the country and abroad. Some people still carry on working in russia and they are the real heroes. Like, for example, dmitry muratov, who is the nobel Prize Winner and the Editor In Chief in the past of novaya gazeta. So, these people are the real heroes. And, of course, i try to support people and address people using the possibilities that i have, both the russian journalists who are in russia and abroad. At the beginning of this programme, i talked about the way in which Putins Vision for a russian world, a greater russia, of course, is premised upon military power, but it also has a very strong cultural, spiritual element. The association between putin and the leadership of the russian Orthodox Church could not be stronger. Explain to me how this relationship actually works between church and state. Well, some of the experts, like, for example, father cyril hovorun, they would say that the war consists of two elements the weapons and the ideas, because the weapons do not shoot without the ideas and the ideology. So he would say that while the weapons are provided by the state, the ideology is provided by The Church. This is true, but only in part. So, for example, if you look at the doctrine of the russian world, which you have mentioned, it was constructed artificially in the 1990s as an alternative to the post soviet identity, basically of shame, after the collapse of the soviet union. But then it was taken up by kremlin and, for example, vladislav surkov, who was one of the politicians directly responsible for the policy of russia in Eastern Ukraine. He said that, for us, this concept was interesting because it corresponded to our desire to expand. And, in another interview, he said that for russia to be within its limits is boring and uncomfortable. The paper of the Moscow Patriarchate in this sense is that the doctrine is being sacralized. So it is the russian world, not simply as an ethnic or a national community, but as a community which is morally superior to the world because it lives according to the so called traditional values, which have the divine origin. Its a supernatural community, which was born at the baptism of russia, etc. I guess what im really getting to is the degree to which Vladimir Putin dictates to the russian Orthodox Church and uses it as a tool. Is that the way you see it, or is it more complex than that . I think its way more complex than that. And i think that its also quite different from the situation in which The Church found itself in the soviet union. So, for example, i remember a story which was told to me by Metropolitan Anthony bloom, who lived in london, who represented the russian church here for decades. And he said that once, it must have been the 1970s, To London came metropolitan nikodim, who was a teacher of the patriarch, and he gave a press conference, probably here in the bbc. The journalists were asking him, you know, how is The Church in russia . Are there any persecutions . Is there any pressure . He said, everything is fine, everything is brilliant. And after that he approached Metropolitan Anthony and asked, how did i sound . How was it . He said, it was terrible and everyone was laughing at you and no one believed you. He said, brilliant, because this is the way i meant it to be. Now, the difference now, is that the people who preach what we call z theology, i think they believe what they preach. I dont think that its possible to persuade the patriarch to say something that he does not believe. So, i would not think. Hang on, this is important. I mean, the patriarch has basically, to paraphrase him somewhat, has basically described the war in ukraine as a holy war. He suggested that those who die fighting for russia in this war will be absolved of their sins. This makes it sound like some sort of holy crusade. Well, i mean, on the one hand, i think that what is really important here is that the relationship between The Church and the state is not simply objects and subjects. I think that when you listen to these people, you have to understand that it is something very similar to an apocalyptic sect, which is absolutely assured in its own superiority, and it is sure that the world does not have any meaning. The existence of the world has no meaning without the existence of this community. So i think that were speaking about something that these people actually share, rather than they impose one on the other. Its a shared vision. So lets talk about putin himself. Do you believe that Vladimir Putin is being cynical and opportunist in his relationship with The Church, or is he actually a religious man . Well, i think that in a way he is religious, but it is a kind of religion which has nothing to do with christianity. I have tried to analyse some of the things that hes said about his faith and, at some moment, i think it was earlier in the year 2023, he was criticising something that he has heard, which took place in britain, that god is gender neutral, and he could not accept that. Obviously, the discussion was not about god, but it was about the gender neutral language. But, obviously, for him, it was so difficult to accept. He does believe that god has a gender, and if god has a gender, obviously, its a male god. And what does it mean to be a man in the Post Soviet Culture . You know, we have this word in russian, muzhik, which would really, if a man asks another, are you muzhik or not . Its really the capacity to resolve any conflict by violence and by aggression. So, for example, you may want to refer to a book written by hector garcia, which is called the alpha god, where he shows how sometimes in the evolution of humanity, the Alpha Males were inventing Alpha Gods to make them look like themselves. So i think that we are speaking about some kind of religion, but its going to be a very, very basic one. Lets talk about another russian, who was very public in his religiosity, and thats Alexei Navalny. You agreed to officiate in a commemorative service just a few months ago after navalny� s death in prison, which involved his wife. And she thanked you for your Involvement And Youve spoken about your admiration for navalny� s courage. In a way, how can the same russian Orthodox Religion have fuelled the behaviours, the Belief System of putin and of Alexei Navalny . Well, i mean, if you look at the history of christianity, you can say that christianity has been fuelling all kinds of things not of which are going to improve. But i think that regarding navalny himself, i never knew him personally, but i think that we owe him a few things. One is that he, um, contributed to destroy a myth, which is one of the central ones in the russian propaganda that if someone thinks and acts not in accordance with the official line, it means that he is paid from abroad and he is directed from abroad. Now, obviously, there is no authority, and there is no money that can send someone to a place like kharp and to accept terrible death in that prison. The second thing is something that i spoke about at this Memorial Service is that, you know, being a christian is notjust about, um, quoting the bible, but its about following christ in a very literal manner. So the image that i had in front of my eyes when he was boarding a plane from Berlin To Moscow is that of descent into hell. So one of the things that i said at the ceremony is that navalny taught us that you can be in hell and not be a part of it. You took navalny� s fight against putin as an example that others could follow. Weve discussed in this interview how difficult it is to be a dissident priest in russia today. But youve said that, actually, there is scope for peaceful resistance in russia that can make a meaningful difference to russias future. In fact, not so long ago, you said that, we russians can learn from martin luther king. I think that in russia, we have not yet exhausted the potential for nonviolent resistance. Surely, given what happened to navalny, given the enormity of putins Repressive Machinery Inside the state, thats just wishful thinking. I dont think it is. Because if you think how to stop a tank or an aeroplane, maybe the obvious question would be that, you know, it has to be stopped only by weapons. But in order for it to advance, you have people inside who are motivated to do it, and there are people who construct it. So, for example, i saw someone with an academic background. Itry. What i have tried to do in the last months and a few years is to try to see this religious pseudo religious doctrine and to try to deconstruct it. And this would be a way to simply to show people how they are being manipulated. You think russians are listening to you . Some of them are. I wouldnt say that there. We cant say there are many or not. But, uh, for example, when we made an interview with katerina gordeeva, there were some 2 Million viewers. So i think that for people, it is because people are so disillusioned with The Church, with the institutional church, because people feel that using the image of the gospel, they are receiving the stone instead of the bread, and instead of the christian message, they receive a mix of conspiracy, militarism and nationalism. Its very important for them to hear some voices, which, in the middle of this gaslight, if i may use this word, help them to survive. Just a final thought. Volodymyr zelensky and the Ukrainian Parliament have just essentially banned the Orthodox Church on ukraines soil. Theyre closing down those churches. Theyve accused some clerics involved with The Church of acting as agents of russia. Some have been accused of treason. Do you, as a former priest in the russian Orthodox Church, agree with ukraine that The Church has been used as an agent, in effect, in places like ukraine . Well, first of all, there is no russian Orthodox Church in ukraine now. So what is the ukrainian Orthodox Church has. Which is the moscow Affiliated. . Well, it is. The question is precisely whether it is Affiliated because it is not Affiliated any longer now for a few years, and there is no reason why it should be victimised. But i think that in a sense, what is happening in ukraine because. Well, how should i explain it . I think that what happens in a war, especially if the victory does not seem to be very near, is that the massive aggression is being canalised from the external enemy to the internal one. So in this sense, i would say that ukraine is really repeating the. Well, i wouldnt want to use a mistake, it has to be some stronger word. But what is being done in russia. So, obviously, the state in ukraine is farfrom being neutral. And of course, as a christian, as a priest, i cannot approve of cases when The Churches are taken over by violence and by force, and the authorities turn their blind eye. Im not necessarily saying the government as such, but the local governments. And i dont think that these questions can be decided by. Decided by violence and by force. I would never approve it. But you feared what the ukrainians have done to this, as you say, this Orthodox Church, which is ukrainian, but in the past has historically been tied to the russian Orthodox Church, you believe that the measures taken could represent a form of religious repression or not . Well, it is definitely a form of repression. But i dont think that anyone should be, in this sense, judged by their past. I think that you have to consider the reality, which is there today, and the Reality Today is that the people who belong to this church, they are. Supporting their country in their war of freedom, independence, and i dont see a reason why they should be victimised. And, on the whole, you know, when every State Functionary sees himself as a kind of Emperor Constantine and thinks that he has the authority to rule and to govern what we may want to call religious life. You know, im not quite happy about that. Andrey kordochkin, we have to end there. I thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much indeed. Low pressure and early warmth in september have brought Flooding Rains to some this weekend. A Months Worth of rain fell in parts of the West Midlands on the slow moving Weather FrontOn Sunday, which is only slowly easing its way eastwards through the remainder of the night. So the heaviest rain does ease. The thunderstorms ease away as well, but therell be misty low Cloud And Hill fog with this Weather System in the east. Further west the skies start to clear and it will be chillier for scotland and Northern Ireland in particular. And in fact in these areas it was chillier On Sunday as well. Still warm and muggy in the south and still with a lot of murky weather, first thing on monday, quite grey, quite damp on that Weather Front initially, but compared with sunday for wales, for north west england, for the South West of england, its much drier picture Eastern Scotland as well. But the rain does roll back in to the west of scotland, Northern Ireland later and this cloud, Murky Low cloud, could just Hang On in East Anglia and the South East for much of the day, where we see the sunshine 17 or 18. But thats considerably down. And as we saw On Sunday, temperatures are lower anyway in the north now and then that rain rushes eastwards as we go through monday night. On a developing area of low pressure actually got a sting in its tail. I think by the time we get to tuesday. A fresher night in the south, despite quite a bit of cloud and quite a bit of breeze as well, welljust notice it wont feel as close. But this Weather System will slowly meander its way southwards. And then behind it, we open the doors to this northwesterly air flow. Hence, it will feel chilly midweek and the northwesterly wind is a chilly direction at any time of year. So we will notice that particularly tuesday and wednesday when the winds are strongest, lots of showers around. Strong winds as well. Notjust by day, but by night. By The End of the night, The End of the week rather, we could have a touch of Grass Frost in the north, but thats The End of the week. However, from midweek onwards, the showers coming in thick and fast as scotland could be a little bit wintry over the top of the munros, this rain just dragging its heels in the south. But a windier day for all of us. Gales possibly in the north and the east. And its here where the rain hangs around, and it could give some significant rainfall across the likes of Orkney And Shetland as well, through tuesday and into wednesday. So although well see 12 to 18, i think those, temperatures tempered by the strength of the wind particularly so on wednesday, does look as if southern areas may see a ridge of high Pressure Building towards The End of the week, but we will firm up on the details as the time goes on. More online. Welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, im steve lai. The headlines Venezuelas Opposition Leader arrives in spain claiming asylum. He tells his supporters we will continue to fight. Jordan launches an investigation into the killing of three israelis at a Border Crossing to the occupied west bank. Typhoon yagi rips through northern vietnam leaving at least 21 people dead and more than 229 others injured. And fireworks light up the Night Sky bringing the paralympics and paris� summer of sport to a close. Welcome to bbc News Broadcasting to viewers in the uk and around the world. The venezuelan opposition leader, edmundo gonz lez, has arrived in spain where hes been granted political asylum. This was his Plane Landing at a Military Base near madrid. He left venezuela after taking refuge in the Spanish Embassy in caracas