Approach to afghanistan? fawzia koofi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. It's a great pleasure to have you in the hardtalk studio. It is now three years since taliban rule was restored in afghanistan. They have just passed a raft of new so—called vice and virtue measures in kabul. Tell me about the impact of those measures, as you see it. You have put it very rightly after the, you know, three years since the taliban regime was restored. This is the right way to put it, because many people think, say, um, three years since the taliban victory, since they have taken power. Ijust believe it's three years since afghanistan was handed over to taliban because of the moral defeat by all of us, especially international community. Now, the new law. . . You're talking about the decision led by the united states of the western nations who'd been backing the afghan government to withdraw their troops, which, of course, then led to the collapse of the afghan national army and the taliban moving back in to kabul. Exactly. So the withdrawal was like the last stage. Obviously, things started to move in a direction that was in the desire of the taliban from the time that negotiation with the taliban started, excluding the government of afghanistan, excluding the society of afghanistan, the women of afghanistan. Hang on, you say exclusion, but i have to intervene. You were part of that dialogue. You went to doha. You were one of, i believe, four women who actually spoke direct to the taliban back in 2020. Correct. I was one of the four women negotiated with taliban, with the hope that we will be able to come to some sort of political agreement where taliban will accept coexistence. But, by the time i went to doha, i already realised, as we started the first day, that it's too late because the taliban have already signed a political agreement with the americans, on the basis of which the united states said they will withdraw, and the americans should actually, you know. . . The taliban should pursue a political process — while i'm talking about the process, until we got to that negotiation, the government of afghanistan was excluded from the negotiation between americans and the taliban. You know, in a war, you have all the parties to the war. The government of afghanistan was the main party to the war, where we lost more than 120,000 of our troops every day. And people that i knew, they actually were hired with my recommendation in the army and police. Young men, educated, highly capable. They lost their lives into this war. But we were not then part of the decision—making on how do we want this peace process to be shaped and designed? i want to get to the present in afghanistan as quick as possible. But what you're saying is really important. Ijust need to know from you — on reflection, now that we're three years back into taliban rule in your country, do you believe you made a mistake getting drawn in to that engagement with the taliban back in 2020? because, in a sense, you opened a door to them. You offered them a form of legitimisation, which they certainly leapt upon and used to its maximum advantage. Legitimisation was given to them by the international community, who portraited an image of taliban 2. 0, a moderate taliban. And that image was created in a way that we were all trapped into that narrative, that we believed taliban have changed. Taliban are 2. 0. Did you believe it? when i went to them to meet them before the negotiation in moscow in 2019 — and this is on the record — the taliban said they have agreed to women to continue their education up to phd, on the record, the taliban negotiations, very high level, who are in the taliban ministerial position now, said they want women to be working, including be the prime minister. So, obviously, when somebody makes that kind of public statement, you tend to believe them because we had a good faith for this negotiation. So here we are today. Given what you've just said, you were lied to. What is the impact of — i believe it's the 35 different new articles of so—called vice and virtue rules — which, as i said at the very beginning, do the most extraordinary things. They ban women from notjust showing theirface in public, but from looking directly into the eyes of any man who is not a member of theirfamily. They ban women from singing or reading aloud, even in their own homes. There are a whole raft of measures. What's the impact and the effect on women today? so this piece of paper, which they call it the vice and virtue law, is a paper that actually impacts the woman's life on a daily basis. I was talking to the women — to a woman, for instance — i was talking to her and she was like, i went out of my home to get a taxi because she lost her husband in the war. Like me, she's a single mother of three children. Her son is only five years old. She wanted to take a taxi to go and buy groceries. And the taxi. . . She stopped three taxis. The taxidriver said, sorry, i cannot take you. And this is what happened to me personally in 1997, when they imprisoned my husband, no taxi would stop for me. And i know, what does it mean. When, of course, the taliban was in power then. In power for the first time. She stopped three taxis. No taxi would stop. And one guy who was kind enough, he said, i can take you, but you need to introduce yourself as my sister, and i will introduce you — me as your brother. But you have to pay me triple times more. This is in a time that women have zero income. Maybe 95% of women in afghanistan have zero income because they are basically erased from the work space. So this law is actually yet another extreme suppression on women's rights. So women are pretty much confined to their home space. They are not educated beyond the age of 12. And, yet, in the last three years, we've seen an end to active street protest, to women raising their voices against these measures. Is that the success of repression? i don't think so. I think still there are small groups of women that protest in different provinces. The media is extremely censored. So, thanks to social media, thanks to the technology — and this is what i told taliban in 2019 when i met them in dialogue — i said, if you try to bring your draconian repressive measures back, every person in afghanistan is a journalist. They have a phone, they have internet connectivity with the rest of the world that they will talk about what you bring to them. So that's what's happening. In some provinces, still, there are small protests. People protest in their own way, indoor protest, writing on social media, resisting in their own way by going to education centres, all the district education centres, resisting in their own way, going to the offices, although it's not allowed for women, that is — that requires a lot of courage. What about underground schooling? i know way back when the taliban was first in power, you were involved in a sort of secret school movement. Is that resuming? are there efforts to educate girls beyond the age of 12 today in afghanistan? there are. There are a lot of efforts and ongoing activities in several provinces in afghanistan. I'm also involved in that. To provide education beyond grade 6 for girls, provide language training, provide skills training for women, be it online or in person with a lot of, you know, cautious because it is not easy. You're putting, are you not, everybody involved in those sorts of initiatives in grave danger? but. . . We, i, outside the country, in exile, my sister is inside the country. We don't have anything to lose, stephen. We have lost everything. What do we. . . ? i lost my identity. I lost my country. Women in afghanistan even lost their right to be visible as a human being. What else do we have to lose? so that risk — worth it! that's what they tell me. Here's one really disturbing survey that was recorded by un workers inside afghanistan. They found that 76% of afghan women and girls who responded to their questions about mental health said that they would describe their own mental health now as bad or very bad, and reported rates of insomnia, depression, anxiety, total loss of appetite that suggests that females in afghanistan are going through the most traumatic, terrible experience. What else could we expect? if you start your day by looking at the walls of your home with no hope, and you end your day in the same place, what hope you can have to keep your mental health in a better situation? when i talk to these women and girls, sometimes, the moment they use this term future, because future is very dark for them, they collapse and they start becoming emotional. I can only understand that i don't probably feel the same way that they do, but i can only understand whena woman, a girl in afghanistan, was hoping that she one day will become a doctor, one day will become a journalist, one day. . . Sometimes they tell me, one day, we wanted to be like you. Be able to raise my own voice and use my voice as a power. But now, they are not even allowed to raise their voice in public because the taliban are so scared of women's voices. They have literally announced a full—fledged war against women. But it should be said, the taliban says it is doing the will of god as it interprets it. Today, afghanistan is a theocratic state. The vice and virtue minister, mohammad khalid hanafi, says, we are committed to assure all the rights of women based on islamic law. Is afghanistan the only muslim country on the planet? why it's not happening in the rest of muslim world? if you see figures in the neighbouring countries of afghanistan, there are more female in universities and education institutions than male in some of these regional countries, which is also not democracy as such. If you look, some of these women in power and politics, we have women, muslim women who are foreign ministers, prime ministers, even presidents. So my question to the muslim world, especially to the muslim world, to the 01c members, is that why are they allowing taliban to misrepresent our religion? 0ur religion is about co—existence. In fact, taliban actually apply the same rules and policies that existed before islam emerged in some of the arab world. They are actually taking afghanistan back to before islam. And i don't know why the muslim world thinks that it's ok, because let's not forget, we all have a small group of conservative in our society that could be inspired by taliban, that could endanger the national security of our countries. And that's why i think the muslim world especially must raise their voice in solidarity with the true islam. You talk about the muslim world. Let's talk about the wider international community. We know that earlier this summer, there was a meeting in doha, a sort of dialogue meeting in which taliban representatives met with representatives of more than 20 international nations. The idea was to focus on those areas of discussion where there might be some sort of common ground. It was about opening up the private sector of the afghan economy to try and help the people of your country who are desperate forjobs and economic growth. And there was also a focus on counter—narcotics. What there was not was any discussion of women's rights. Did you support the opening of some sort of dialogue or not? i think all of these issues that was discussed in june in doha directly impact women's life and women's rights. So why do we include. . . ? why do we think women's rights is a segregated issue with the rest of society in afghanistan? surely the point was that the taliban made it clear if women's rights was going to be top of the agenda, and indeed, if women were going to be sitting opposite them in negotiation, then they would not attend. And the world listened to them, and the world listened to them, because there is a concession after concession in the last three years to the taliban flexibility of theirflexibility, which i believe has emboldened taliban because now the taliban use women's rights as a bargaining chip with the international community. The moment they want to get more attention, they suppress. They bring another law, another edict to suppress women's rights. I think it's time for the international community to step back a little bit and see what went wrong. As i said before, how can they fix that moral defeat that they have actually committed in afghanistan? but how can the international community, in good conscience, step back when they know that more than 20 million people in your country are in desperate need of direct humanitarian assistance? how can they ignore this — one of the worst humanitarian situations in the entire world? humanitarian crisis is just one of the crises out of 100 crises that the people of afghanistan suffer. I'm not saying humanitarian crisis should be politicised, although i know personally humanitarian aid is actually benefiting the taliban. This is based on our conversation on daily basis with women, with men. We know that humanitarian aid emboldens taliban. Taliban have a good division of labour. They want international community to feed the people through the humanitarian aid, and they spend all the money that they create through the revenue, through our natural resources, through our mines, and investing on the security only, investing. . . But the fact is you are in exile. You're speaking to me in london. There are millions of women inside afghanistan who are right now, today, struggling to put bread on the table to feed their children. And that's why. . . And your message to the international community is that they should think again about providing even the most basic humanitarian assistance. . . I'm not saying that. I'm saying humanitarian aid should not be politicised and become a means of leverage for taliban to influence international community's decisions. For the last three years, every week, $40 million go to the central bank, which eventually will go to humanitarian aid. This has emboldened taliban. What i'm saying is that there should be a culture of. . . . . Cultu re of accountability. This culture of impunity must end, because, so far, all the engagement has been one—sided. And it's like a one—sided love. It has only empowered taliban and emboldened taliban. In return, the taliban has not really given anything to change the situation of women in afghanistan. So the situation of women is not only poverty. Poverty is just one human rights, which is the basic and fundamental human rights of people, needs to be respected. But what about the rights to education? what about the rights to work? what about the rights to exist as a human being? can the international community, as a global community, leverage the taliban over the humanitarian aid, the same way taliban are leveraging them? the un envoy to afghanistan, richard bennett, is currently barred from entering the country. But he has said that, as far as he's concerned, what he sees of the taliban's treatment of women and girls could amount, in his words, to a crime against humanity that could be prosecuted under international law. Now it's clear that so—called gender apartheid, as recognised, for example, by the un secretary general, isn't a specific international crime. Right. But gender persecution could be. So do you want to see your nation taken to the international courts on this? not my nation, but the taliban. Definitely. There is a difference between my nation, because my nation is a peaceful nation and a small minority does not represent my nation. So i think there should be more accountable mechanisms in place. I think it's time, as i said before, for the international community to step back and see what went wrong, and how can they fix it? gender apartheid is not even a political campaign in the case of afghanistan, and i want this to really focus on afghanistan. It's not even a political campaign. Apartheid is a systematic segregation and suppression of one gender, or one race, or one religious group from the rest of society. And this is what's happening in afghanistan. We don't need evidences. You talk to five afghan women inside afghanistan, five women from afghanistan. You will see there is a systematic suppression of women for their gender. And, therefore, ithink there should be some rule and order in place from international world in order to avoid this happening in the rest of the world. This happens in the uk, this happens in the us or in global south. We need to put these mechanisms in place. We've talked a lot about international community responses, but let's bring it back to afghanistan itself. There is a national resistance movement. There are armed fighters who say that they are committed to bringing down the taliban government, led by people like ahmad massoud, but it seems they are not getting international support. And it seems that, frankly, at the moment, their efforts to militarily confront the taliban are really not successful. For you as a civil society activist, a women's rights activist in afghanistan, do you support the idea of afghans once again taking weapons into their hands and seeking change through force? well, first of all, stephen, i am still a politician. I — as much as i would love to be a civil society activist, i am a women's rights activist. But i'm a politician because. . . Well, you are and it should be said, you were the first deputy speaker, deputy president of the afghan parliament. But with the greatest of respect, the afghan parliament no longer exists in the form that you knew it. Correct, that is a different. . . So for the moment, you're in exile and you are an activist. You are a civil society campaigner. Correct. I agree with all of those. I just want to know whether when you hear those like ahmad massoud who are still committed to the fight against the taliban, will you support that? i guess it's not that. . . I guess it's. . . First of all, the political opposition of any sort does not really have the space that they require. Remember, taliban as a fighting group had their office in doha in 2011, right? the political opposition does not have, including women's movements. We have tried to convince the world, including the muslim world, non—muslim world, to allow us to have an office for women to represent their desires, their country, have an identity, that was not allowed. So i think it's not even about supporting the political opposition or the military opposition. Some people are pushed to make harder choices. It's the ground reality. The former security forces in afghanistan are arbitrarily detained. They are arrested. They are killed. Targeted killing. And they have no other choice but to make harder choices. It's not even about me supporting them or not. The reality is that they are pushed to the mountains so they have no other choice. But when it comes to the political opposition and civic opposition, i think it's time for the world to support a viable alternative. When you see nations like china accepting the credentials of a taliban ambassador in beijing — i think the uae has done it as well, the russians have even talked about a long—term dropping of sanctions against the taliban — when you see, for example, international tourists, a few thousand every year, going into afghanistan, when you see big business looking at afghanistan's resources and thinking, mm, i'd like a piece of that action, what is your message to all these different forms of international engagement with a government led by the taliban? i think they often forget that women's rights and human rights is a matter of national security. The more they engage for their own interests, be it economic interests, be it security interests — i know a lot of central asian countries, for instance, have a pragmatic relationship with taliban because they think their own security and borders should be controlled — they often forget that afghanistan, based on credible reports, is a safe haven still for many military extremist groups, because you cannot defeat one military extremist group by another one. In fact, the taliban's victory has inspired many other military groups in the rest of the world to choose the same path. So you are alluding, what, to alqaeda still. . . Alqaeda and boko haram and isis—k and boko haram and many other military extremist groups around the world are choosing the same path as the taliban did because they think at the end of the day, ptt — the pakistan ttp, the pakistan tehrik—e taliban — they are using the same path to victory. So i think it's a mistake to think that short—term economic, short—term political engagement is going to secure a long—term, sustainable, peaceful relationship with afghanistan. That's a mistake. I think we need to make sure that taliban, first of all, get an internal legitimacy before they get an international legitimacy or regional. They do not have an internal legitimacy in the eyes of the people of afghanistan, because they do not have any base, except that afghanistan was handed over to them. A couple of years ago, i asked you if you believed that one day you would, as a politician and activist, be able to return to your own country and resume your political career inside afghanistan. Ijust wonder, two years on, whether you're any more optimistic today than you were then. That's not only my everyday struggle, strife, but i think everyone who has left afghanistan — 15th of august or afterwards — their desire is to go back to their country. Ifeel i'm in nomadic mode being outside afghanistan. I still have my bags packed with the hope that i go back to afghanistan. That's my struggles. I think it was a mistake that some of us left afghanistan, but it's a mistake that we can reverse it by having an afghanistan. . . You wish you hadn't left? i wish i hadn't, because i — every day, when i get those messages from women in afghanistan, that's that — you know, that dilemma that i'm suffering with and i'm struggling with, like, was it better for me to be in afghanistan, even if inside the prison, to be with the same people that who loved me and supported me for 20 years? or is it better to be outside the country? history willjudge this. But for one minute, since i have left afghanistan, along with my other sisters and some men who believe in our cause, we haven't rested, stephen. One minute, we haven't rested, forgetting what's happening in our country, because i believe that was a mistake and we should now create our own narrative. And that's what we are doing with the women movement, starting with the women movement, we need to create our own narrative that is not translated from french and english or arabic to us, but translated from our local languages — farsi and pashto — to english and owned by us, led by us, for our country, for the future of our country. That is what we are trying to do for now, with the hope that we will be able to build more unity, bring everybody together for a better afghanistan. It is not easy. I have been engaged on this for three years. I have developed more grey hair but i think we will make it happen. Fawzia koofi, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello. We're expecting a real mix of weather over the next couple of days. For some northwestern parts of the uk, it's going to turn sunny and very warm, but further south for southern england and south wales, we're expecting some heavy rain. Perhaps in one or two locations, a months worth of rain in just a couple of days — that could cause some disruption. It's all because low pressure is continuing to swirl to the south of us, this band of rain here becoming quite slow moving, particularly, i think, across the southwest of england. But around that area of low pressure, we're drawing in some humid air, so further north and west with some sunshine it will feel very warm. Now, during thursday, these southern parts of england and south wales will see some rain at times — that rain turning heavy and persistent in the southwest later on. Further north, a lot of low cloud, mist and murk, some spots of drizzle, but the best of the sunshine where you get some shelter from the breeze, western scotland and northern ireland. Temperature—wise, well, maybe along some north sea coast just 15 or 16 degrees, but elsewhere, 18—21 with a slightly more humid feel. But as we head into the evening, this heavy rain affecting southwest england, clipping into south wales, and overnight, it looks like we will see more rain pushing along the south coast. So with that rain really totting up, there is the risk of flooding, some disruption. Further north, largely dry, some mist and murk and low cloud for north sea coasts. Quite a muggy start to friday morning. More rain through the day on friday across southern england, perhaps pushing northwards into south wales and the midlands, perhaps east anglia as well as we go through the day. Further north, well, still some areas of low cloud, mist and murk for some northern and eastern coasts, but further west, some good spells of sunshine, and look at the temperatures — liverpool at 26 degrees, parts of western scotland at 25 degrees, so feeling warm and quite humid. Into the weekend, our area of low pressure continues to swirl to the south of us, throwing some showers northwards. Still quite a lot of mist and murk and low cloud. Could be some fog around to start saturday morning. Should see some spells of sunshine and, again, in the sunshine, feeling very warm with those temperatures, perhaps up to around 25 degrees. Into sunday, more of the same, really. Some showers, particularly in the south. Some sunshine, too. Still feeling warm and muggy. Live from london. This is bbc news. A community mourns in the us state of georgia, following a shooting at a high school in which four people were killed. A 14—year—old student has been detained. Israel's prime minister insists forces will not leave a key strip of land along gaza's border with egypt. It's the latest sticking point in ceasefire negotiations with hamas. Water company bosses could be banned from receiving bonuses and even sent to prison under new uk legislation. And a council of new zealand's indigenous maori chiefs has chosen the late king's only daughter as the new queen. Hello and welcome to the programme. I'm sally bundock. We start in the us. A teenager accused of killing four people at his high school
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