Its a great pleasure to be in your presence, stephen. People in ukraine know who you are, they follow you, and they appreciate what you do. No, im thrilled to be here. It was extraordinary to visit ukraine almost a year ago, and i still think about it almost every day and follow whats going on in the news with puzzlement, hope, sometimes despair, and often bafflement. Wars are such complex machines, beasts, whatever we want to call them, arent they . And its very hard to understand them. And, you know, youre a journalist, you both have every right to visit and to be embedded amongst military and to, you know, describe the theatre and the Home Front and all the elements of war, but i was very worried whether i would come across as some kind of creepy tourist who was just kind of feasting on the unusual sight and ticking it off on a weird bucket list. That wasnt my intention, i was invited there, but im aware that its a sensitive area, isnt it . Oh, but you can see. I mean, vitaly, im sure, agrees with me that the reaction of ukrainians that you were there, they were very honoured, they were so pleased, because they know you, and also because you have become a well known advocate of what is a growing issue for ukraine, and that is how to deal with Mental-health'>Mental Health. Yeah, yeah. And thats why i went there. Olena zelenska, the first lady, she has, for a few years now, had these special conferences in which she invites other first ladies and, as they call them, first Ladies And Gentlemen. So the first Ladies And Gentlemen gather, and discuss things, and use what i suppose you might call the soft power of a President Ial or prime ministerial spouse. Their connections and their ability to get things done and be heard. And she invited me to co moderate, if thats the right word, a conference specifically on Mental-health'>Mental Health. And i leapt at the chance. You know, thats it about the ukraine war, it hearkens back to the Trench Warfare of the first World War and then the most modern of warfare in drone warfare. But it is also one of the elements, the way we cover wars now and conflicts, we also have to look at the impact of war. And its notjust physical, it is Mental. And lets listen to some of the people that weve heard from on this programme. Very powerful testimonies of how they deal with Mental-health'>Mental Health. I am struggling with depression, with depressive episodes, and sometimes ijust cannot get up from my bed and i spend daysjust crying. Oh, my god, im so sorry to hear that. Its Mental-health'>Mental Health issues, and its ok to talk about them. I absolutely. To make them visible. Everyone has a friend who died. Everyone already saw some destruction. So, when you are living with this for two and a half years, it became easier for you to cope with it. Maybe because it is hard to cry on every desk for a long time. You never know what triggers the bout of grief, you know . I sometimes you can go about your life, then all of a sudden, something brings back memories and you start crying. The help i would probably appreciate and need eventually, its to treat my depression, because i sometimes get. Depressed over the fact that i dont live My Life to the full. But its not a priority right now. Ill tell you who they are, stephen. One of these voices belongs to valeriia, whos a choir singer, who lives in london now. Maksym is a Soldier Fighting on the Front Line. And the third one is viktoriia, whos also now moved to the uk, but she lost her husband and her daughter in the early days of the war. They were killed right in front of her as they were leaving chernihiv. Can i ask you why you are taking an interest in ukraine in the first place . Well, i myself have a condition known as bipolar disorder, which was finally diagnosed in mym i suppose i was in my 30s, but id had a very troubled childhood, building up into expulsions, and then prison, and a very tormented and stressful time that i kind of overcame. But was always aware that i had this issue. Explain to us, because maybe some of our listeners. Bipolar disorder, yes. Used to be called manic depression. And the bipolar is literally two poles, north and south, if you like. The north being a swing to elevated moods, known sometimes as mania or hypomania, in which you are unbelievably active and often embarrassingly so exhibitionist, some people are, you know, shopaholics and some people just never stop talking, Phoning Friends at three in the morning, all kinds of difficult behaviour. And then there can be a swing, it can happen suddenly, it can happen over a period of days, down to the south pole, as it were, of depression, of blackness. And theyre absolute opposites. And one of the things you have to remember is the Mind Body Parallel is quite useful. Its not absolute, but it is useful. And in the case of the body, you can have a chronic condition which you are born with, as i think my bipolar is, like Diabetes Type one, orasthma, oranything of that. Or an allergy to, you know. Coeliac disease, you know, an allergy to gluten, say. Theres just something youre born with, and it can be triggered by getting the wrong thing. It gives you your asthma attack, and you might trigger your Mental-health'>Mental Health illness. But then there is traumatic physical illness, which can be caused by a gunshot wound, or a car crash, or falling. Its serious, and its a trauma. And its the same with Mental-health'>Mental Health. There are all kinds of people who are not born with a Mental Health Condition, but under traumatic circumstances, either in childhood or indeed war, where these happen to people whove never otherwise had to consider that their mind might lose its focus, its equanimity, its contentment, its peace, its reliability. And its extraordinary to me that in ukraine this is being talked about. When i went there for this conference, there was an openness not complete, there were plenty of soldiers. I spoke to some boys who had lost limbs, and the joking or whatever, and when i asked them if they ever felt low about it, theyjust went, nah, like that. And then when the camera was off, they went up to me and said, of course, you know, i cry. My mother cries, and i cry when i see her cry. And i said, its ok to talk about that. Dont feel you have to be. That its somehow more of a soldier not to. You know, great Human Beings are great Human Beings in the round, all aspects of their weakness as well as their strength, and often their weakness is a strength. And its certainly a strength of ukraine. The day russians start talking about the Mental-health'>Mental Health of their soldiers and the crisis amongst them will be a day that it has moved away from some of the totalitarian horror in which it seems to be mired at the moment. And it is a sign, and i kept getting signs i dont want to sound as if im a propagandist for ukraine but it was so clear to me from all the conversations. Firstly, that i was able to make a film with a couple of friends, a producer, and a cameraman, and no one from the government or the military was with us at any point. We were completely free to go wherever we wanted. Obviously we didnt ask to go into War Rooms or anything, but it became so apparent that what was being fought for was much more than territory. Or if it was a territory, it was a territory of the mind and the spirit, of a freedom and an openness and a desire to be able to talk openly. And talking about Mental-health'>Mental Health is a very, very healthy, ironically, sign of that openness. And you heard that from this neurosurgeon you met, andrii. Lets just listen to it again. Mental health is a complete novelty. Right. For ukrainian society. Even 10, 15 years ago, we never even dared to discuss about. I yeah. To discuss Mental issues. Because it seemed like it seemed weakness . It seemed like a taboo, like weakness. Yes. Youre not masculine enough, youre not tough enough. Its so true that theres an ingrained culture of, you know, tight lipped stoicism, if you like, in ukraine, like boys dont cry. Its changing slowly. And to give you an idea of the scale of the crisis, ive got some figures here. Its a massive problem for ukraine, especially after the start of the full scale invasion. The who, the world health organization, says that 9. 6 million ukrainians may have a Mental Health Condition. Of them, 3. 9 million may have conditions which are moderate or severe. And various researchers have found that between a third and a half of ukrainians are going through Mental-health'>Mental Health problems such as severe distress, anxiety and depression. And clearly, theres a huge need to help them, to treat them. Yes. And an urgent crisis, too, really happens when it isnt. Because there is such a thing as. Its known in the trade as transgenerational trauma. That if a soldier returning, you know, injured or, you know, with a prosthetic or something, if theyre turning as so often and understandably they might to drink or drugs to control the raging inside them and the misery inside them, they pass on this trauma to their children, who are already, of course, having to undergo these Air Raid drills, and no news of Mummy Or Daddy who might be away fighting somewhere, or someone in the family has been injured. And we know. The absence of happy childhood memories, as well. Exactly. And we know that children turn to things like self harm, cutting and so on becomes a huge problem. It is in britain. Its an epidemic in our schools. In ukraine, its obviously more urgent and more noticeable because of its traumatic source very often. But underneath it there is a less obvious trauma, which is the day to Day Worry and anxiety that the war occasions. You dont have to be on the Front Line. I mean, even here in london, weve had help for people who are working in newsrooms far away from the Front Line because theyre impacted by the images that they see. And when you were in ukraine, you met people from different walks of life, notjust those with guns at the Front Line. And did you find that everyone, at some point in the conversation, said to you, well, you know, its affecting me, too . Yes. It starts with what i suppose you might almost call the theological seven deadly sins, as it were, The Dark Side of our emotions. Fear is very strong. And anger. They are so angry at russia and what russia is doing. Its this real, visceral fear. I tried to talk its there in the documentary about whether or not it was somehow wrong to cast aside Pushkin And Chekhov and say, were not going to have russian authors. And i said, but these are geniuses who contributed to the world in such a magnificent way. And they said, no, another day. Notjust they, the president. The president said it. You said this to the president. He said, yeah, another day. Zelensky. Not now. Is it generally the case that, say, the great russian authors dostoevsky, chekhov, you know, pushkin, and so on that theyre not being sold in book shops, that generally russian culture is. People dont want. They dont want it, do they . They dont want. There are a lot of books there in english, in ukrainian. Mostly people. That is the life. People. For today, people | hate everything. Yeah. Which is. Connecting with russia. Anger is such a powerful emotion, especially if it cant be exorcised, if it cant be, you know, got out of the body through either some physical effort or through a defeating some, you know, some giant in your mind that needs to be felled. And that giant is, of course, The One who must not be named. It is a Voldemort Quality to the leader of russia. Im not going to say his name either. They dont want to say his name. To say the name of any of them. They just. There is this fury, and underneath, a fear, of course. And something that i felt while watching that documentary, in the interviews that youve had with several ukrainians is the disdain, Notjust Anger and hatred, but also disdain for russian troops in their country. Yeah. Absolutely right. Imean, its. They almost think of them as. Barely human. I think theyre aware that theyre not fighting for anything they believe in. It is hard to know what any russian on that Front Line is believing in and thinking of. You mentioned earlier how, for example, young people may deal with stress, anxiety by self harm, but there was a very moving interview that you did with a widow, and she explained to you how her daughter was coping with her fathers death. So, you have a daughter. How old is she . Shes 11. So, old enough to be distraught. She was. She is, actually, even now, shes very close with him. I so, do you. I know its still so recent, but do you try to talk about him and keep him alive in conversation . And its not. She keeps texting him in whatsapp. 0h. Oh, my goodness. And she actually. What she said to me about five days ago that she misses him i and she really Doesnt want him to come in her dreams, but she wants him to reply| on her messages and. Or, like, to call her back. What were you thinking when the daughter said that . I mean, all of us find it sometimes. Its so. Its so hard to deal with death. Inexplicable. And for an 11 year old. But were you thinking, well, mother should at some point say, lets accept that daddy is dead . Or what were you thinking . It was still only two weeks, and i can understand why she was allowing this one sided, this heart rending, one sided Whatsapp Conversation to carry on, and slowly she would have to introduce. I mean, i didnt tell her, cos its not my place to and i dont know what the rules of grief are. I forget what the seven stages are. Is it seven . One just knows that, actually, like love, every grief is unique. Its never happened before in the world. Youre Grieving Someone whos never had to be grieved for before. Its unique, and it must be respected as such. And, you know, she was an extraordinary, articulate, and remarkable woman. And her husband was an early casualty, reasonably. I mean, it was a year ago, so. But he was not a military figure, he was an intellectual. Philosopher. Imean. And she said, we were sitting in a park, actually, and she actually referenced it, she said, its so that people can walk around freely in this park with their children. And we watched and we saw these, yeah, exactly, an average evening and a reasonably sunny day in a park, and that is what you fight for. Its very. Its very beautiful, but also its harrowing. What do you think, vitaly . Humour, hope, what do you think. . Its indispensable. I mean, you cant live with it. Yes. You cant live with it. If its pretty bleak, and its been going on for two and a half years now, how do you get out of bed, exactly . How do you keep on going . And sometimes the only way of dealing with it is make a joke. Even if you lose a leg. The image thats stuck in my mind after watching your documentary is that ukrainian soldier. From odesa. He said, im from odesa and this is. Who lost a leg, and then he taped a little bluetooth speaker to his prosthetic leg. And i said, why did you do that . And he said, because i could. Because i could. Stephen laughs as if i was an idiot. And i loved that you shared it in the comedy club, and they all laughed, too. Yes, they loved it, didnt they . Yeah. What really struck me about that interview is about how relaxed it seemed, that the president seemed very relaxed, and whether that reflected because the war has gone on a long time and hes gotten used to dealing with it. And i dont know whether if off camera, and you may not be able to share it, whether you discuss with him because he knew you were there for the Mental-health'>Mental Health conference did he share with you . Because the family has openly discussed how stressful it is. You know, zelenska has said when i visited her in kyiv that, at that time. Well, president zelensky, he said he sometimes Doesnt see his family for months and months and months. Yes. And even to have dinner with them. Theyve made it no secret that they would rather not be in thisjob. Yes. But that they understand and i think everybody, most people understand in ukraine that to hold an election would be a kind of disaster. You cant really do it at this stage. And of course, there are. You know, you meet ukrainians who dont like him. I mean, its like any democracy. They exist. Oh, my goodness. But he sort of has been sort of such an inspiring commander in chief, although, of course, hes a politician, as well. On that point. Yes. Ive got a question on that point. Obviously, you and president Zelensky Share a bit of a background in comedy. Yes. Does that help or hinder him in his role as a commander in chief, as president . Yeah. How Does he deal with it . I think it helps. I think the nature of comedy is always you distrust and mock the abstract, the grand, the grandiose, and you seek to find the reality. So, when someone says, people are feeling this. You say, what people . You know, comedians are always distrustful of The General and want the particular, and say, yeah, you say that, but whats the real truth . But whats interesting, Cos Zelenska is The One who has taken on the issue of Mental-health'>Mental Health, Does. Has the president ever talked about it himself . Did he ever send a message to the troops . I know he praises their bravery, their determination, he honours their loss. But has he ever said. Thats the focus. Has he ever raised issues of Mental. . Did you say to him, mr president. . Oh, he thanked me for coming for that purpose, and said how important it was, and what an incredibly important issue it was to him and to madam zelenska. And, i mean, my guess is that when messaging the troops, he would pass it in front of a few advisers, one of whom would say its a hostage to fortune to say, you know, we know that you are suffering Mentally with this. Its. You know, you do it in other ways, maybe in personal visits and so on, and you let it be known through the structure of your army and through your medical cause and so on. So its for private. That there is help there. But if you sort of make a big statement of it, it is a hostage to fortune to the other side who are able to. You know, putin is able to say. Russian accent look, i here he is admitting that. Well, in fact, there was a fake Front Page circulating online claiming that top ukrainian generals are suffering from depression. So clearly propaganda is exploiting that. Interesting. But do you get a sense that the ukrainian government is doing more to help people going through difficult Mental. . Yes, i do get a sense of that. You know, there are a lot of professionals who wish it was more, and who wish that it was pushed through the schools and education and tv, and that it was part of The General conversation of ukraine. But, you know, its onlyjust happened in this country. So, ithink, you know, it will take time. And because there is this strong issue with what you do for wounded soldiers from the front, wounded physically. I mean, the number of prosthetics around, its thousands. Its unbelievable. And you see it wherever you go, as i suppose my Grandparents Generation did after the first World War, just endless people with missing legs and limbs and so on. And the Mental equivalent, the urgent case of what used to be called shellshock and is now ptsd and various other names are given to that, and the ripples spread outwards, as i say, transgenerationally and across the nation. But the urgency, i suppose, is with those who have served on the front and are injured in the mind as well as in the body. What would you say to people who are grieving, anxious, depressed . What would your message to them be . What do you think they should do to survive . Well. If i could say something that allowed them to step out of that feeling, i would be the greatest Mental-health'>Mental Health doctor who ever lived. The important thing i often say is. While it is true that a Mental Health Condition and a Mental-health'>Mental Health crisis can be immensely serious, it can lead to, you know, physical ill health, it can lead to reaching out for drugs and alcohol to try and, you know, quell the storm in their head, it can lead to outbursts of violence, it can. Your family can lose faith in you, it can be terribly serious. But also it is worth remembering that some of the finest and best people in the world, some of the greatest artists, and creators, and inventors, and indeed soldiers, leaders Winston Churchill being one example suffered from severe Mental-health'>Mental Health crises in their lives. You can have this and be a great Human Being with a fulfilled life, a life of love and hope. And think of it, if you can, as being like the weather, which is to say, its real. When its pouring with rain, its no good saying, oh, it isnt really raining. It is raining. But also you didnt cause that rain. The rain isnt your fault. And you can be damn certain, even if you live in manchester, that the rain will go away, that it may be sunny. Not tomorrow, not the day after. You wont make it sunny. Theres nothing you can do to make the rain go away, except recognise that its real and that it isnt your fault. Its not something thats a weakness in you. Its an external thing. Its a thing thats happening to you. And it will go away, and then itll come back. Youve got to be realistic about it. But if you can have that sort of attitude to it, then you start, as you do with terrible weather, to find ways of coping with it. Oh, its going to come back. Whats my Mental umbrella for when it comes back, as it were . Those are. I mean, theyre not answers. As i say, the tears still roll, the body still trembles with unhappiness, and the people one loves are upset with one, too, but it is a sort of way of beginning to cope, i think. Thanks for coming. Its a real pleasure, and all power to you. Its a wonderful podcast, and ive listened before and i will carry on listening. And you are, as david frost, the great broadcaster, used to say he was the son of a preacher you are doing the lords work. Thank you. Dya kuyu. Thank you. Dziekuje. Oh, thats polish. And that was Stephen Fry in conversation with me, lyse doucet, and Vitaly Shevchenko on the bbc podcast ukrainecast. If youd like to listen to other episodes, you can find them on bbc sounds. Ukrainecast from Bbc News. Live from london. This is Bbc News thousands of Protesters Injerusalem and Tel Aviv urge the israeli government to reach a Ceasefire Deal with hamas. Unions call a general strike on monday. The protests follow the recovery of the bodies of six hostages held by hamas in the southern gaza strip. The un says the first full day of a Mass Polio Vaccination the protests follow the recovery of the bodies of six hostages held by hamas in the southern gaza strip. The un says the first full day of a Mass Polio Vaccination programme in gaza has been successful Exit Polls from Eastern Germany suggest the far right Afd Party is on course to win a State Election for the first time. And its a Gold Rush for paralympics gb their most successful single day this century hello. The israeli Trade Union Federation has ordered a general strike for monday in an effort to force the government to reach a Hostage Release Deal with hamas. The Industrial Action will see ben Gurion Airport the busiest in israel closed to takeoffs and landings from 8am local time. The families of hostages had pushed for the strike after the Israeli Army found the bodies of six hostages in a tunnel in rafah. The military said they were killed by hamas shortly before troops arrived. Its a Hamas Official denied this, saying they were killed by israeli fire. Thousands of israelis have been protesting in jerusalem and Tel Aviv in an effort to put pressure on the israeli government to bring the remaining hostages home. The funerals for some of the hostages have been held. These pictures are from raanana, just north of Tel Aviv, where a service was held for almog sarusi. Our middle East Correspondent Lucy williamson reports from jerusalem
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