Welcome to hardtalk from rome. Im stephen sackur. Across europe, Political Parties once regarded as too far right to get a sniff of political power are now winning elections, or getting mighty close. But what happens when they do achieve National Office . Well, the best case study in Western Europe right now is here in italy, where Prime Minister Giorgia Melonis far right coalition has been in power for almost two years. My guest today is nicola procaccini, a meloni confidante who is a member of the European Parliament. How is far right rule changing italy . Nicola procaccini, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for your invitation. Its great to have you on the programme. Now, your party, Brothers Of Italy, led by Giorgia Meloni, has been in power here in italy for almost two years now. Would you say that power and responsibility have moderated the ambitions of your party . Have they tamed your party . No, i dont think so. I think that when you are in charge, obviously you have to. To change something, especially in the. In the explaining, uh, in the. In the. In the way you. You talk, in the terms you use. But i think the policies of this government are very coherent with the electoral programme, with. With our vision, with our point of view. So i think. I guess some italians may be asking themselves that perhaps you campaigned making promises you couldnt keep. Attilio lucia, the member of the league party, which is one of your coalition partners, another sort of far right party in italy, hes the deputy mayor of lampedusa, which, famously, is the place where so many of the undocumented migrants arrive when theyre crossing the Mediterranean Sea from north africa. He says, where did that Giorgia Meloni go who was talking about a complete naval blockade to stop these Illegal Migrants coming to our country . Where did she go . I hoped that a right wing government would change our situation, but it hasnt. She never talked about a naval blockade. She talked about a Navy Operation to. To stop the illegal migration, to stop the Human Trafficking. Because, you know, Human Trafficking now is the. The biggest business in the world, more than drugs or weapons. The numbers are down, but you. Absolutely. The numbers are down, but you havent stopped it. I mean, 25,000 plus. No, no, we. We. We. We stopped the. We are down now for the 60 , compared to the last. To the last year 60 . And, listen, this is a success, because everybody was ready to fight, to shoot against Giorgia Meloni, on the right and on the left. 0n the right, ah, you promised the naval blockade. 0n the left, ah, you are ready to kill the. The migrants in the sea. She remains calm. She adopted a different way, a longest way, but a successful way, because she immediately wrote, adopted some stricter laws. But in the. At the same time, she made agreements with the. The third countries, especially the one of origin and transit of migrants. Yeah, you. She has had a Good Relationship with Ursula Von Der Leyen and europe. And now the numbers are telling that Giorgia Meloni made the right choice. Does Giorgia Meloni care about human rights and International Law . Because you talk about those agreements made with third countries, particularly the countries of origin of these migrants. Yeah. And lets talk about libya, because theres a whole series of different independent investigations of what libya is doing in terms of locking up, detaining migrants who want to get to, for example, italy. And there is egregious abuse, to quote a un report murder, enforced disappearance, torture, enslavement, sex violence, rape, other inhumane acts. This is happening while italy is sending tens of millions of euros a year to libya to help them deal with the migrants. No, its not. Exact. We made agreements with tunisia, with egypt, with albania. Well talk. Not. Well talk about those countries. I know. But id like to talk about libya. But libya. Libya is a different situation. Different, its not safe as tunisia, its not safe as egypt. But you are sending tens of millions of euros a year to libya. No, its not correct. We are sending to tunisia. No, youre sending to libya too, to their coastguard service. The deal, the agreement. To their Border Security services. The agreement with libya is something of the past. In 2023, you had an opportunity to end the agreement with libya. You chose to renew the agreement. Exactly, exactly. Now, you cant choose your partners. You cant choose who is the. The ruler, the government in libya. You have to work with the ones that there are to try the way to work, even with the ones that you dont like. But its the only way. I dont think that a country can survive without a short, a small quota of legal migrants. So the only way to have legal migrants is fighting the Illegal Migrants. But we need it, so. And well get to that. You make an interesting point about countries in europe needing migrants, and well get to that because italy, goodness knows, needs migrants. You have a demographic crisis. Even for them. But before we get to that. But not only for them. But, listen, this is Something Like fresh blood that you need. But since the history of humanity, the migration is a positive factor. The problem is the illegal, is the big wave, the massive migration. This is something that put in danger the lives of the migrants and the lives of the welcoming countries. So lets stick with that point forjust a second, if i may, that is, trying to protect life. Do you think it is good for italys reputation that your government has told those humanitarian agencies who have boats on the mediterranean trying to rescue migrants at sea when their boats are in danger of sinking, youve told those humanitarian agencies that you will find them, you will impound their vessels if they continue to pick these people up . If you are talking about the ngos� boats, uh, listen, they are not the solution of the problem. They are part. But these are peoples lives at stake. They are part of the problem. Where is the morality . Where is the morality of telling these vessels, these human. Humanitarian workers that they will be fined. No, they are. Their vessels will be taken away if they continue to do that work . They are doing for political reason. They are fighting a legitimate, uh, political battle. They are for a � no borders� world. I dont think that a no borders world is a world safe and. And peaceful. I think that we need borders, we need control the borders. We need to decide who can come to. To our land and who not. We have the. We. We must. Establish who has the right to come because they are fleeing from persecution, a war, and who has not the asylum right. Who has the opportunity to establish their right to be officially an asylum seeking refugee. There are loads. If they are drowning, if they are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea and you. . You have to save it. Come on. You have to save it. Every life is in danger. Why are you threatening to impound the vessels of the humanitarian agencies who are trying to save lives . Because this is different. Because sometimes its sure that these vessels are working with the smugglers. And this is something that you have to stop, you have to break, you have to stop the illegal departures. You have to realise hot spots on the external borders and there, uh, define, decide who has the right to come and whos not. To the ones that has the right to come, you have to give them a safe passage to come. Uh, to ourland. You said something very interesting earlier about italy needing new blood, needing migrants. Every country. Do you think the people who voted for your party two years ago, and then voted again in the european elections, do you think they really want, as your government has now announced, that there will be over 800,000 legal new migrants over the next three years . I mean, do you think thats what people voted for . No, yes. Absolutely, yes. Yes . Ithink, uh. If you take a look at the polls, its clear, we have a very pragmatic policy. We think we must govern the migration. And this is something new for italy, because we were under pressure for this illegal migration for 30 years and more. And for the first time, the italians are seeing something new, are seeing the government of migration. So youre severe, strict with illegal migration, but open to the legal migration. See, italy has shrunk by 1. 5 Million People over the last decade. I mean, you are losing population at a. At a really quite dramatic rate. This is the problem. This is the main problem of italy. How are you going. . Not only italy. How are you going to fix it . Is it simply by bringing in more and more migrants . No, no, absolutely. I dont believe this is the solution. The way is not easy. But we have the tools to increase the. The birth rates at the same time, uh, we need a small quota of legal migrants because the small quota, you can. You can manage it. You can welcome it. This is the only way. And let me say another thing i dont believe in the multiculturalism. I think that you must teach to the ones who come that we are a nation with its tradition, its culture, and we want to conserve it. See, this seems to me a big. And you have to love it. If i may say so, this seems to me a big problem with your current policies. 0n the one hand, youre telling italians, you know what . Lets get real. We have to have more and more, Hundreds Of Thousands of people come from overseas to live in italy and work in italy, because thats the only way we can keep our economy going. And yet, at the same time, youre saying, we will never be a multicultural, truly, you know, diverse, positive, diverse nation. Multiethnic . Yes. Multicultural . Not. This is the key. Multicultural, no, 0k. This is the key. So let me ask you a very simple question. Today, do you think italy has a deep seated Racism Problem . I think not, but obviously, uh, somewhere, sometimes could happen. Uh, but in general, the italians are not racist. But because we are. Did you read the report that came out. . We are open people, open minded people. So its very rare, uh, racist episodes. Do you think so . Did you read the un committee on the elimination of Racial Discrimination report that came out this time last year, which talked about growing levels of hate speech against minorities in italy . Particularly, they said, look at what is happening in sport in italy, where in professional football, for example, matches have to be cancelled because of racism, racist chants in the crowd. Look at what has happened to the italian volleyball team, who won gold in the olympics, and one of their key players, paola egonu, whose parents came from nigeria, she has seen her picture defaced in posters in this city, rome. One member of the league, your coalition partner, said that paola egonu doesnt represent the vast majority of italians, who have white skin. No, i dont agree. Obviously, i dont agree. Hes your coalition partner. That is not my party. Hes not your party, but youre in government with these people. Yeah, obviously. But he. He was elected in the European Parliament and he has the right to stay there. But this is not my opinion. I think that paola egonu is italian, exactly like me. The colour of the skin is. Not what matters. The problem is that you have to love your country. And paola egona. Egonu is someone who loves her country. This is important for us, if you love or not your country. This matters. You dont think Brothers Of Italy has a problem here . Did you see the covert reporting done by the fanpage News Organisation here in italy, where they showed young members of your partys Youth Wing Making Fascist salutes. No. Shouting sieg heil, praising � uncle benito�. That is, mussolini. These are young members of your party today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, that report was not fair, um. And. Well, you didnt like it. I dont know if that makes it not fair. No, it was not fair. Listen. Yes, you can see sometimes, especially in the stadium stands, you can see some young guys making the fascist salute. But, listen, um, honestly, they dont know nothing about fascism. They are doing that gesture only because its against the system. Its a sort of gesture of rebellion, stupid, against the system. 0k. Against the society. Its a full gesture of rebellion. Nothing more than this. Lets then talk about italys positioning in europe and the wider world under Brothers Of Italy government here in rome. Do you see yourselves as part of that european movement, which would probably include viktor 0rban in hungary, Prime Minister robert fico of slovakia, and others who are fed up with domination, as they see it, from brussels, who want a new europe, defined by Nation States with the power and the right to pursue their own agenda, even if it conflicts with the so called values of the European Union are you with them . No, we are not with them. We are in a different group, as you know. They founded another group in the parliament. But you. We are ecr. When the European Parliament recently took a vote on whether to continue sanctioning hungary, you supported 0rban against. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Why . Yes. Because i think that its a big mistake, uh, Demonising Viktor 0rban and, um, uh, pushing him, uh, in the hands of putin. I think this was a big mistake. I defend the original idea of europe. Listen, the original idea of europe is not a superstate, a european superstate. The original idea of europe is a confederal system, an alliance of nations that are together for doing few things, but very important. Not exactly whats happening in the last. So that leaves you with difficult. In the last years. This means you have some difficult choices to make. For example, the rules of the eurozone, recently reinforced from brussels, say that you have to have a National Debt which is below 60 of gdp. Currently, italys is 137 . You have to have a Budget Deficit which is 3 maximum of gdp. Italys is around 7 . Youre breaking the rules. Are you prepared to continue to defy those rules or not . Oh, yes, our public debt. Is the main problem of italy. But let me, let me, let me say that. Never. Let me say that today, uh, we are having the best economic performance. But thats not my question. In the whole europe. But with respect, thats not my question. Its whether youre prepared to live by europes rules when it comes to your fiscal. Well, its something that we must accept. Uh, obviously, we would like a more elastic, um, managing of the National Debts, because especially in this period, obviously, if you are too focused on the debt, this is a problem, especially now that we have. We are fighting against the inflation. So what im hearing, mr procaccini, is that you have no intention of meeting the eus rules, because if you say your priority has to be. We. We. We must accept we are in the European Union, trying to promote our point of view, our vision. But obviously sometimes you must accept. 0k. That you are with other nations, with other. So if you accept the collective will, will you also accept the collective commitment of the eu to the green deal, which means that you have to do everything to get to carbon neutrality, net zero, by 2050 . Cos you personally have trashed that deal, said its unacceptable. No, listen, listen. Yes. If we talk about the green deal, the European Green deal, we are talking about the worst mistake, uh, of the European Union, of the european commission, in the last five years. But you just told me you have to live by the eus collective will and rules. In a European Union, its impossible that everything goes in the direction you prefer. Uh, but when you are inside, when you are italy, you have the task to change what is not working. For example, we are in favour of a more pragmatic approach to the green deal. We share the climate target, but we think that, um, we must have a more pragmatic approach, less radical. You have to reach a balance. Its not easy, i know, but this is the goal, have a balance between human activity, human beings and nature. I began by asking you whether actually, in power, Brothers Of Italy had been more pragmatic, maybe more moderate than people expected. Yes. And im getting the feeling that actually. I agree. That may be true. You know, there was a concern that Giorgia Meloni would, like some other far right parties in europe, be supportive of vladimir putin. She hasnt been at all. She has committed italy to assist ukraine, militarily and financially. And be careful. Even when Giorgia Meloni was not in charge, when she was at the opposition of draghis government, she supported draghis decisions. This is very important because this reveals the coherence of Giorgia Meloni. The italians are not happy to pay the. The aid for ukraine with their taxes. They are not happy. This is an unpopular, uh, choice. But shes a leader. Shes not a follower. If she thinks. If she thinks that that is the good choice, the right choice for having a peaceful order, international order, she hasnt fear to do the right choice. And a final thought about where you are going, your Brothers Of Italy party, Giorgia Meloni as Prime Minister. Would you say that actually, as time passes, its clear that. That wielding power has changed Giorgia Meloni more than Giorgia Meloni has changed italy . In other words, shes becoming much more pragmatic. Shes pragmatic. Shes always have been pragmatic, has been pragmatic. I know her since we were teenagers. As you know, we grew up together. She has always. Shes been always the same. Uh, shes. Let me say, shes a woman. Uh, and maybe the women are usually more pragmatic than the males, um, and. Maybe this is one of the reasons shes the first, uh, woman to lead italy. Uh, and this is why i think shes the right person in the right moment. Nicola procaccini, thank you forjoining me on hardtalk. Thanks. Thank you for your invitation. Hello. The weathers looking fairly promising for most of us on wednesday, with some prolonged spells of sunshine, but it wont be dry everywhere. In fact, farfrom it. We are expecting a few showers and in the morning across i or 2 areas it actually could be pretty wet. Let me show you the big picture. Heres the forecast for wednesday. A couple of Weather Fronts bringing showers into Northern Ireland and western scotland, and this one here also in the north of england, wales and stretching to south western areas. But whether youve got the sunshine or the rain in the morning, its actually going to be quite warm first thing 17 in london, about 15 around merseyside and similar values there for glasgow and edinburgh. So showers reaching Northern Ireland and western scotland. And heres that Weather Front stretching from Northern England through the lakes, into lancashire, wales. Maybe the west midlands, could be some spits and spots further south, too. So for a time some of us will catch some rain here, showers there moving into scotland. And big Temperature Contrasts on wednesday. Eastern england, east anglia and the south east, mid high 20s. 0ut towards the west, its a lot fresher temperatures of around 18 in belfast and for glasgow. Now this is fresher air thats arriving off the atlantic. In fact, the fresher air will spread right across the country during the course of thursday. So no longer is it going to be so warm in the east and the south east. Temperatures here will be closer to say, around 22 or 3 celsius out in the west around 18 degrees, with that Atlantic Breeze coming in. Just a few showers for scotland. Heres a look at the end of the week. High pressure is building off the atlantic. This azores high. Showers are kept at bay across france, far away. So its a day of light winds and sunny spells. Really a very pleasant day. And for some of us, a perfect summers day. Neither too hot and not particularly cool either. And the temperatures will be around the high teens across western areas, maybe nudging up to 2a in london for the end of the week. So thats friday. How about the weekend . Well, the High Pressure is still with us Weather Fronts are trying to push in, but its a substantial high so its keeping things dry. Maybe the weather going downhill a little bit with a few showers towards the south and towards the west as we head into next week. So heres the outlook, then. Friday and the weekend looking pretty decent for many of us, with spells of sunshine looking quite warm too. And then into september, it does look as though we could catch i or 2 showers. Thats it for me. Bye bye. Welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, im steve lai. The headlines. The Israeli Military says a hostage has been rescued alive from Southern Gaza after more than 10 months in captivity. The head of the un warns that Pacific Islands are in danger of being wiped out by rising sea levels. Ukraine says theyve captured hundreds of russian soldiers in its Military Operation in the kursk region. And the news 0asis fans have waited 15 years for the Gallagher Brothers confirm theyll reunite for a uk and European Tour next summer. We start newsday in The Middle East where the Israeli Miltary says its rescued a 52 year old man who had been held hostage by hamas in gaza since october last year. Qaid farhan alkadi, an arab israeli, had been working as a guard at a warehouse when he was abducted. Hes now recovering in hospital and has been reunited with his family. Heres our middle east correspondent lucy williamson. Surrounded again by sunlight, by the sound of hebrew. Farhan alkadi, a 52 year old bedouin israeli, snatching
comparemela.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.