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a leaflet through the door, a knock on the door from a candidate, but mainly through tv, radio, newspapers, online. people, i think, sometimes forget what media is or what media means. it is obviously the mediate between the public and the politicians and their leaders. and it is, of course, flawed, but without the media, the public wouldn't know what's going on. so yeah, absolutely right. let's do this episode by different types of media. and i'm going to now take a step back because i'm one of the few non—former newspaper editors sat in this room. i really know what kind of media... 0h, simon hasn't edited a newspaper either. and alex, did you edit the student newspaper, maybe, iwould imagine? no, i didn't actually. no, i also am a non—newspaper editor. what media are you going to attribute to me? because i want something cool and funky like instagram. i don't want... well, you can do it all. i can do it all. thank you. thank you very much. academic based quiz shows? academic based quiz shows. what were you going to try to make me do? were are you going to put me? were you going to pigeonhole me as a former newspaper editor? no, i was going tojust incorporate that into your cv. so, i mean, give us some rules of thumb about the role of newspapers in an election in 202a. well, i take my rule of thumb, as i do all advice on these matters from an excellent podcast called when it hits the fan. and i was listening just a few weeks ago when you guys bagged a very rare interview with matthew freud, a hugely influential man in the world of public relations in this country over the last 30 years. and he said three words in sequence that i thought were quite astonishing when you asked him about what keir starmer should do in terms of the media, and he said keir starmer should ignore the media. i thought it was a quite extraordinary thing for matthew freud to say. and i was quite pleased he said it in some ways because i've been thinking that anyone in politics should do the same thing. and you and i, david, come from a world of newspapers and we'll be just about old enough to remember where newspapers and their endorsements and their coverage had a huge influence on election campaigns. and i think one of the stories of this election campaign is, frankly, it's the starkest demonstration we've ever had of the diminished influence of newspapers. you go along with that? i completely agree with that. i really do. and we're going at the moment, of course, a lot of people are looking at the sun, my old paper, to see whether or not they're going to endorse keir starmer. and yesterday, as we sit here, was the debate between keir starmer and the prime minister both took part in the sun debate. and look, i agree with matthew and i think that ignoring the media is important. that doesn't mean that you don't interact, of course, with the media and you don't nod to the media. so a lot of this is about doffing the cap. you know, when keir starmer turned up last night, as he did at the headquarters of news uk to take part inthis huge sun event, what he and the prime minister, of course, were doing was paying their respects to mr murdoch, really. it doesn't mean a thing, you know? it's more like accepting an invitation to a party and saying, " i better show my face". we are going through the motions here. we are, to a degree, a lot of us in the media are looking to rupert murdoch and to rebekah brooks, who runs news uk at the moment and saying "will they back or will they not back keir starmer"? but it doesn't matter. we're basically looking, this is a 215t century election and we're looking at 20th century stuff here, really. so the newspapers would respond to that, wouldn't they, dave, by saying that they have massively grown their digital reach, and in many cases they have, lots of lots of subscribers, they've got lots and lots of traffic for their websites. but it's just important for people who are especially the younger people listening to this podcast to remember that 20—odd years ago newspapers had a tremendous influence, and that's because they had a kind of monopoly. they were the gatekeepers on public attention. and i've got because the wonderful jo wilkinson is one of the brilliant researchers of the tele podcast, has got some figures for how circulations have fallen. i just very quickly tell you a couple. the sun from 2014 to 2020, guess what percentage for print circulation? here we go with the quiz show. 43%. daily express from 2014 to this year, down 71% in the decade, mirror 76%. and the daily mail down roughly 57%. the daily mail's print circulation now, it's got a big online presence, of course, massive, but its print circulation is 688,000. it was inconceivable to me when i left newspapers in 2016 that the mail would fall much below a million, and it's fallen significantly. so these are significant players, but they're significant players in a very new, massively fragmented landscape, and they still have a kind of top down quality, whereas as i'm sure we're going to get onto when we talk about social media and the influencers there, i think you can connect much more effectively with the people you need to reach through influential people on social media. so it's... i agree with all that. and, you know, when i was editing the sun, which is not like that, we were 3.8 million we were selling i mean, you know... wow, that's calledj the yelland effect. i mean, it was nothing to do with me. but, you know, i mean, we had ten million readers in a population, an adult population of 42 million at the time. so, you know, that's what it was and 70% of sun readers voted labour. so if you shifted a few of them, you shifted in the election. that's what that was way back then. but i think there's something much more fundamental going on here, which is this, if you look at the front pages of these papers, let's just take the daily mail and i've got an ipad here with all the daily mail front pages going going back a month. it's really, really cheers you up actually to look at they're all about tax they're all about super majority. if we get a result in the election next week which we it looks like we're going to get — all these papers didn't have any effect, did they? they didn't have any effect. and that is the fundamental thing that may change. you know, i think there may have to be a generational change in the leadership of these newspapers — the telegraph, the mail, the sun, so many others, because actually they've been banging on about things that the public may be actually don't care about. now, when i was editing the sun, i was brought up. i was told many times by rupert murdoch, you are failing if you don't understand your readers, right? i don't think these papers understand their readers any more. i don't think they understand the country. and so something much more fundamental has happened here thanjust, you know, being the wrong side of a two—party system. could ijust come in, if i may, on this? . because i've lived my career. on the other side of the fence, mainly, and i have to say completely agree what they both said. _ but what the papers do - during a campaign is they create a mood, and they create a mood principally within— the parties themselves. and having been inside numberten during the 2010 election _ and seen it previously, _ ijust know that what the papers say and how they write it affects the mood of the campaign, i and sometimes it almost becomes a self—fulfilling prophecy. - the worse the press, and we're seeing this being played out, i think now, the more likely it's _ going to get worse. i completely take the point - about the numbers, but i think one should never underestimate, i if you look at it through the kind of eyes of pr, that it's quite. important still that people do think, "hang on, this is goingj badly," even if it may not be. and also, i would just add to that that i completely agree with the diminished impact and effect of the newspapers in something like a general election cycle. but that's not to say it's not entirely insignificant, and the power of a good story still exists and stands beyond that. you know, and broadcasters, for example, will look to the front pages to see if there are stories that they then pick up and follow up and give them a much kind of wider outing. so yeah, absolutely diminished, but definitely not insignificant. and you can see by the behaviour of some of the parties through the course of this campaign. when they've chosen to make certain announcements, they've placed them in certain papers to reach a certain audience. so although they may not be turning to the papers in quite the same way and endorsements may not hold quite the same clout, they are still conscious of reaching a specific constituency of voters through a newspaper, and will very actively choose to do that. also, simon, just picking up on your experience in number ten, what's it like when a governing party who are used to kind of like dominating the national conversation because they're running the country, suddenly the switch flicks and they're just some contenders in an election against other parties? yeah, and this was 2010 _ when i was working for gordon brown. and it was fascinating _ because of course, funny enough, it was the first leadership - televised debates there had ever been, which actually changed the weather as well. - and the other thing that happens. in a campaign is the prime minister suddenly loses all the civil - servants and actually it's number ten with the political people. and then this realisation, you say that, "hang on, l this is now back to party politics". it should never forget that when your prime| ministers matter who you are, you're surrounded by this - huge phalanx of support. and then once the election is on, it's a bit like a boxing match, it's| you against the other contenders. and actually how you deal. with that as a prime minister is a critically important factor. and also just the fact as a prime minister, you're then thrust into a lot more of a normal life, like you can bump into a voter who you're then caught on a hot mic complaining about. certainly know who i you're talking about. but yeah, and the small points then when — you're talking _ about the gordon brown moment. where someone, one of the people around him might have just taken the mic off. i but i also think that when it comes down to it, i mean, i gordon brown used to come back every night to number ten _ and do his red boxes. so rishi sunak, whateverl you think of his campaign, he's still prime minister. so there's a double burden, i in a way, running a campaign when you're actually the incumbent. but it was just before we get on to local papers, which is the other bit of this industry which is facing even more precipitous collapse. there is a tension and a difficulty, especially for right—leaning papers here. 0n the one hand, you've got to kind of tell the story as it is, which is of a conservative party that's really struggling and seems to be quite well acquainted with pr mishaps like the titanic boatyard or launching a campaign in the rain or leaving d—day when the allies are coming together. yeah. but on the other hand, you want to endorse a certain view of the world. so for instance, and i think the way that's been manifested in this campaign, it's actually, david, i'm struck by how often politics is not on the front page. so there's obviously euros around. the sun have been doing a lot on euros. this morning, as we speak, the daily mail's got a front page where it's got princess anne on in terms of the picture story and it's got holly willoughby. yeah. so actually they've kind of avoided it and it's a real bind. alex, you spend a lot of your time going to meet voters and different parts of the country for any questions. you're in a different place every week. what happens when you pick up the local papers when you go to those places or do you? i started life at local newspaper, so i'm one of these people that actually feels quite saddened by what's happened to local newspapers, just in terms of their circulation and readership and the consequences that that has had for local democracy and scrutiny of it. and i think it's really... i mean, look, we know that the readership of local newspapers like the national print has dropped off considerably. but that doesn't mean they don't still have a role to play. and i think when you get a national election campaign, which is, you know, you have parties who are trying to shift the agenda onto the territory they choose, that they want it to be on. and you have the national media, people like the bbc, for example, have this kind of a bit of an a duty, if you like, to tell people what the parties are saying because there's a public service element to that. and then you also have the kind of issues that newspapers will choose to highlight because it suits their readership or their agenda or whatever else. the space that's left out is what other people want to talk about. and that's the voter's, right? and, you know, for me, the role that local newspapers should still be playing in a campaign like this is highlighting the issues. all politics is local, at local level, which really matter to people that aren't being talked about in the wider national conversation. and i think some of them do that brilliantly. and i also think what they do a job of is scrutinising local candidates because, of course, just by virtue of the fact when you're trying to cover an election campaign from a national perspective, of course, you might get tipped off about something happening in a certain area. but, you know, to do proper kind of due diligence and scrutiny of every candidate that's standing, and their behaviour through the campaign and their approach and everything else like it, that's where local newspapers do have a role to play. the difficulty is they've just been so again, coming back to the word diminished. do you know what i mean? their resources are just... i mean, when i worked at the portsmouth news during election campaigns, you actually could really get out there and cover them, you know, actually get out on the campaign trail and see the candidates. and you knew them all and all the rest of it. i just don't think they have the capacity or the resource in a lot of instances to do that now. that's not true of all of them. you still got some big regional hitters who have a huge role to play. but across the board, if you take it across the country, i think that's a great shame. not, again, not completely insignificant, but vastly diminished. i mean, there are different i mean, you know, there are parts of the country.... that's how your podcast works. yeah, yeah, yeah. if simon wants to say something, david interrupts, and simon will like gallantly. .. that's the world of pr, amol. i mean, it's really interesting, alex, it's really interesting, alex, listening to her, and i started my career on in local papers as well. and, you know, but there are parts of the country that are very well served by local papers in some of the biggest cities. and there are other areas where there isn't, there isn't. and i wonder what, for example, would the clacton would, the clacton seat... would what's happening on, what's going to happen in clacton be different if there was a paper there that was staffed in the way that your paper was in portsmouth when you were training? i wonder. i just wonder about that. and i agree with- everything david said. but if i could just add to that - and i'll be interested that i think what's happened this campaign. is that hustings have become far less popular for a number- of reasons, including security. and when i was a kid, _ my dad used to take me to hustings. you mean like when the candidates go to the school hall? when the candidates come together. i think there are fewer of them for all sorts of reasons, - and i don't think that's good for local media. _ and i think it's not actually very good for democracy. i but i might have got it wrong, but that's my sense. - you're right. let's pivot now. i know i'm surrounded by media professionals, so that's why i've used that media jargon, pivot, to broadcasting. here is my thought experiment for you, amol. everyone�*s talking about, "0h, is this election like 1992 or 1997"? ijust wonder, how is an edition of the today programme this year different or the same as an episode of the today programme in 1992? exact question. i was nine years old. so you remember listening well? and obviously i was actually, i think i was deep in the shakespeare concordance when i was nine. and then i was learning... you're going to quote another another sonnet from memory? yeah. just to filibuster. i think it's basically doing the same thing. and actually one of the things about the today programme in most, it should get me in trouble for saying it. most of the coverage of what you see about the today programme is such utterjunk, utter nonsense that people overlook the fact that the today programme still has extraordinary influence. and when you look at the secular decline in linear listening or the amazing podcast beyond the bbc as well as within that are available. i think what's extraordinary and we don't take for granted, it's the hardest working team i've ever come across, nut the today programme still has an extraordinary power and reach. and i think the basic idea, the task of the today programme, i hope we don't get in trouble for saying this, is to win the morning by breaking the best stories and explaining the biggest stories better than anyone. and i think that hasn't changed since 1992, actually. i think that i know that all the parties still feel that they've really got to get on the today programme. they've got to communicate to a big audience. and i think that's also true of broadcast media in a slightly different way because we know if you look at the demographics of voting behaviour in this country, the older you are the more likely you are to vote, and the older you are, the more likely you are to consume mass market broadcast. and the brilliant, heretical american author michael wolff, long before he was donald trump's stenographer, wrote a book called television. i think he said television is the new television, and there's a bit of wisdom in that about the fact that television still has a huge capacity, as radio does in this country, it's different in other countries to reach a very big electorate in a very direct way. and i think the today programme, mediated by really outstanding presenters, is i think still a kind of an opportunity, i'm sure, how simon was advising gordon brown back in number ten in 2010 and other people you've worked for, simon, not at least in the royal family, i think. i still think broadcast programmes, notjust the bbc, but beyond, it's still a way of, if you like, activating and connecting a very big number of people. i think that's right. not breaking any confidence, i'm sure, but i mean, - the king is a great fan- of the today programme. i mean, the fact is that it's a programme that reachesj into every part of the society that we're operating. - and i do think ,i remember, you know, numberten, - it was who's got the 8:10 slot? and here we are in 2024, it's still the same. - i mean, so i completely agree. and i think actually it's not the size of the audience, l but let's be honest, i it's the influence and reach of that audience. so, you know, very impressive how the today programme - still delivers year—on—year. one of the other technicalities about kind of especially the star of the day when it comes to election campaigns and the parties and the media is the grid that the parties have. so their list of kind of prearranged announcements that theyjust roll out with a sort of rhythm. does that still exist? have i let you into a secret? yeah. it does exist, but when a campaign begins, the grid becomes - just a piece of paper. it's more a calender. i mean, when government is sitting, the grid is the grid and credit- to alastair campbell for inventing the first place, but _ the problem is events happen. i mean, the prime minister leaving d—day was not on the grid. - overlapping chatter. so i think the grid becomes a bit of a fiction, but obviously you've got to get your ideas out, you've got to have - a manifesto launch. but the key to a successful - campaign, i think, is flexibility during the campaign, - because without that you're going to walk into some bear traps, and we've seen all parties sort - so i think the grid becomes a bit of a fiction, but obviously you've got to get your ideas out, you've got to have - a manifesto launch. but the key to a successful - campaign, i think, is flexibility during the campaign, - because without that you're going to walk into some bear traps, and we've seen all parties sort - of walk into some of those traps. so yeah, i mean, the grid is fine, but an election i campaign, all bets are off. and, alex, the tension i find as a broadcaster during an election campaign is, "ok, we'rejournalists were there to cover the news. "the news is events unexpected, things happening, things going wrong, things being uncovered," but equally as part of our kind of servant of our democracy, you also want to cover the issues and the campaigns, but we're not there to just distribute the parties press releases that day or to say," oh, here's this really interesting policy labour has on dentists or the conservatives have on on pensioners tax". we're not there to just copy and paste those things for them, are we? well, you'd hope not. i would worry if that is what our role had been reduced to. but no, but i do think there is an interesting point there, and i mentioned it before, there is this sort of i don't know if it's a tension, but i think it's a kind of dual responsibility. on one hand, it is right that you provide coverage of what the parties are saying so that people hear what their message is or policies are, whatever, with the right level of kind of scrutiny and challenge alongside that. but of course, yourjob as a journalist is to try and find out what they don't want you to say as well or what they don't want to be talking about as well. and, you know, in the course of a campaign — coming back to the point about the grid — you know, if everything just went to the grid through in the course of a campaign, i'd say thejournalist hadn't been doing a particularly good job either. and of course, the parties need to have the flexibility to respond. and if they, again, stuck to a grid and didn't deter from that at all, they'd end up looking pretty tone deaf because campaigns evolve and change. and i thinkjournalism in the media still has a role in that by attempting to find out what the parties aren't saying or aren't wanting to talk about, which can be as informative as what they're choosing to talk about on any given day. so you've got to wear both hats and attempt to do both. i think things like the grid, which are pr tools, they don't mitigate against bad decision—making and a lack of wisdom. and, you know, coming home early on d—day is bad decision—making and a lack of wisdom. and that's important to say the other thing to say about the today programme and broadcast is we are — this might sound like a very controversial thing to say — but we are lucky to live in a country where we still have this water cooler moment. i spent many years, i spent about ten years living in the us. you wake up in new york, there is no water cooler, there is no one place where everybody goes and you can say it's the elite, 0k? even it's good to have a place where the elite and a few other million people go in the morning because it means we are connected. and in the dynamic of broadcast during this election, starting off with the today programme in the morning, going through to the six and the ten on bbc news, bbc one in the evening, that is where this election has been. that is where particularly the six and the ten, of course, because they're big audiences, and both parties, both major parties and all the other parties have tried desperately to get onto those programmes. and, you know, i think it has been a broadcast election this election, that's what... can ijust bring in another bit ofjargon and one i'm very familiar with from... when i was the chief political correspondent, which meant doing all the breakfast shows, and i got very familiar with this thing called the morning round. yes. where the parties put out one person who's basically their spokesperson for the day and theyjust have to fend off all questions on every subject. and ifind myself getting frustrated going, "why is the education secretary being asked to really detailed question about the fishing quotas and the brexit negotiations"? why it's mel stride or pat mcfadden...? yeah, exactly. what's clever in that? i think it's quite admirable, really. yeah, admirable by the people who do it. i think it's quite sweet. i think there's been a moment in labour hq or in tory hq where they say tory, they say, "look guys, we need someone tomorrow morning, we need someone to...". and mel stride sticks his hand out and he said, "guys, i'll take one for the team, i'll do it. they can ask me anything". and obviously it's been focus group to death. and there's something about mel stride which is reassuring to people. and similarly, pat mcfadden. i actually think from the point of view of the listener or the viewer, i think there is a real challenge in that you don't want to hear someone who is the transport minister being asked about universities. it's just, as you say. and yet, as an interviewer, you do think, "well, you're the person that the government put up. and there's a story on every front page about university, so i've got to ask you about them". and that's a sort of difficult, inevitable friction in what happens. and it gives you know, it's one of those things everyone wins from because they can say, "well, i'm not the education minister". so that's a bit tricky. i do think when they put up the same person constantly... there was a moment last year where the tories were having a very difficult time and grant shapps was on every channel morning, noon and night. ubiquitous. and itjust sort of, it slightly sort of gave you a sense that maybe they thought that it was... david and i actually had - a conversation about this today. i mean, james cleverly was the guyi this weekend and he took quite a bit of flak and we both said, "you know what? - "he's going out there, i he's taking it on the chin. "he isn't able to getj his message across. but it's tough out there". and i think sometimes just going out there, l as you say, and doing it, you've got to do it. - and particularly if you're losing a campaign. - and the fact is, he went out there, good for him. - i mean, purely as pr professionals, we sort of assess, you know, "how did james cleverly do on trevor and laura k on sunday morning"? he did 0k, whatever you might think politically but i think there's something else happening here, which is this, i think the public are seeing through this. you know, they can see, they know that james cleverly has been on sky and he's going on laura kuenssberq — because when you watch particularly trevor actually on sky, he almost says, you know, good luck later on sort of thing, you know. it's all very meta now. and the whole thing has become a little bit too transparent. but we have now got this proliferation of formats. so the other aspect of broadcasters, we've had really good, i think, really informative election debates. we've had really long—form interviews that my co—host nick robinson has done for the bbc under the panorama guys, but also across beyond the bbc. you know, we've had fantastic debates, i think, high quality debates. yeah. not been riveting tv. really well moderated. beth rigby for sky and michelle hussain for the bbc. julie etchingham did an outstanding job, and ifeel like, you know, as you say, we shouldn't take for granted the fact that we do have the chance to really scrutinise our leaders. i think that, you know, it would be wonderful if they were slightly more honest about some of their plans. but, you know, they are putting themselves up. and i actually think in a lot of ways, and it's maybe a different podcast, i think a lot of us are getting this election completely wrong. everyone�*s obsessed about the future majority. it might be. i think we're living through an era where we could be facing something like the twilight of liberal democracy. and so in that context — if you look around the world and what's happening — to have leaders who are willing to chat to the sun's youtube channel one day, the today programme the next, and do paul brand on itv the day after, its wonderful. newscast from the bbc. so that was the shortened version of what we recorded here in the studio. if you would like to hear the extended version, then you can hear it in the feeds of newscast, the today podcast, and when it hits the fan, all of them are available on bbc sounds. and if you never want to miss an episode, why don't you subscribe to them, too? bye. hello there. tuesday was a hot day for england and wales. it was the hottest day of the year so far in wales, but temperatures were even higher in england, in the south east, in the strong sunshine, 29 degrees in east sussex and 30 celsius in surrey. scotland, northern ireland were cooler on tuesday, thanks to more cloud and some rain in scotland really pegging the temperatures back here. not much rain as we head into wednesday morning. sunny skies for england and wales. some cloud will bubble up, bringing the threat of one or two showers over the welsh hills and the pennines, but it's in scotland that will see some showers developing as it brightens up here and there — some of the showers could be heavy and thundery. and in the afternoon, a bit of rain coming in from the west across northern ireland. some sunshine ahead of that should lift the temperatures a bit higher. the high temperatures, though, are going to be across england and wales. another hot day and, again, 30 degrees likely in the south east of england. things are going to change a bit, though, on thursday. this area of low pressure is coming in from the atlantic, pushing ahead of it, this weather front. as that moves its way eastwards, it'll be followed by atlantic air, cooler and fresher air that will push away all that heat and humidity into the near continent. now, let me show you that weather front, because this is it. it really is just a narrow band of cloud, little or no rain on it. ahead of it, some sunshine following it, some sunshine, but close to the low, some stronger winds bringing showers or longer spells of rain into scotland, northern ireland, one or two showers crossing the irish sea. it is going to be cooler everywhere on thursday. plenty of sunshine, i think, for england and wales, and for a good part of the day, still very warm across eastern parts of england. but with that weather front out of the way as we head into friday, we still have the low pressure running to the north of scotland and still some quite brisk winds for the time of year in scotland — some outbreaks of rain probably in the north of the country. a few showers elsewhere, the odd shower maybe for northern ireland, moving into the north west of england. further south, it's likely to be dry, and we'll see some sunshine coming through from time—to—time. temperatures are still going to be around 17 degrees in scotland and northern ireland and back down to 23 celsius at best in the south east of england. now, heading into the weekend, we're still in that slightly cooler, fresher air. many places will be dry with some sunshine, the best of it probably across southern parts of england. and this is where we'll see the highest of the temperatures. welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm steve lai. the headlines... wikileaks founderjulian assange lands in an american territory in the pacific after reaching a plea deal with the us. kenya's president accuses criminals of hijacking protests against tax hikes, after five people were shot dead by police. king charles welcomes japan's emperor naruhito to buckingham palace in an official state visit. a chinese lunar probe returns to earth with the first ever samples gathered from the unexplored far side of the moon. hello, it's 7am here in sinagpore and 9am in the northern mariana isalands where we begin this hour, because the founder of wikileaks, julian assange, has arrived in the remote us territory to plead guilty to a charge of espionage, where he'll go through legal procedures that should result in him being set free. he flew to the islands as part of a deal struck with prosecutors, after spending five years in belmarsh prison, in the uk, fighting extradition to the united states. mr assange uploaded classified military files to his website nearly 15 years ago. joining me now from the northern mariana islands is our correspondent shaimaa khalil.

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