and labour's bridget phillipson — who'll be education secretary in less than a fortnight if the polls are right. 11 days to go, are you tired, exhausted, relieved it is nearly over? sonic regardless the sun has come out. i got to wear shorts the other day, small mercies in elections. but i like electioneering, so i don't mind. are you hoping to get more votes with the shorts? i’m you hoping to get more votes with the shorts?— you hoping to get more votes with the shorts? �* . . ., the shorts? i'm afraid i might have ut some the shorts? i'm afraid i might have put some peeple — the shorts? i'm afraid i might have put some people off. _ the shorts? i'm afraid i might have put some people off. the - the shorts? i'm afraid i might have put some people off. the sun - the shorts? i'm afraid i might have put some people off. the sun is i put some people off. the sun is shinin: put some people off. the sun is shining but _ put some people off. the sun is shining but nothing _ put some people off. the sun is shining but nothing is _ put some people off. the sun is shining but nothing is settled i put some people off. the sun is i shining but nothing is settled and if people want to change they have to go for it. if people want to change they have to go for it— to go for it. one minute in and we have not to go for it. one minute in and we have got a — to go for it. one minute in and we have got a slogan _ to go for it. one minute in and we have got a slogan already. - remember, this election is not just about the contest between the big two. sirjohn curtice with his polling calclator will keep us right. all these mega polls said conservative support is falling most heavily in constituencies the party is defending, compounding its losses. and our team at the desk for the next hour this week, labour's peter mandelson. the conservatives' former chancellor, foreign secretary and defence secretary, philip hammond, and broadcaster susanna reid. morning, morning — not long now. let's start with the news, as we always do. the sunday times splash on a fourth conservative allegedly being looked into by the gambling commission over election bets. they also have the royal selfie with taylor swift. the mail on sunday report president zelensky said nigel farage has been infected with the virus of putin. on the sunday mirror today — "the rishi get richer". whilst some economists have told the observer labour won't get the growth they want without closer eu ties. there's scotland's first minister john swinney on the sunday mail — amid claims the snp have been using taxpayerfunded stamps for campaigning. and the bbc news website, we've been passed a recording of a tory candidate and aide to the home secretary saying the rwanda policy is "crap". a busy news morning. welcome to all of you this morning. philip hammond, do you ever wonder if your party is trying to sabotage its own campaign? it's a difficult campaign to run because it's against the backdrop of the borisjohnson period in government, the liz truss to boggle. my government, the liz truss to boggle. my own personal view is that many voters made up their mind back in 2021-22. -- the liz voters made up their mind back in 2021—22. —— the liz truss debacle. so i think rishi sunak and jeremy hunt have done a credible job so i think rishi sunak and jeremy hunt have done a crediblejob in government, but they are unfortunately being held to account for the mistakes and the errors that were made earlier on in this period of government. you were made earlier on in this period of government-— of government. you back to rishi sunak when _ of government. you back to rishi sunak when it _ of government. you back to rishi sunak when it came _ of government. you back to rishi sunak when it came to _ of government. you back to rishi sunak when it came to choosing l of government. you back to rishi i sunak when it came to choosing the next leader, but a lot of your colleagues say he has made things worse, the way the campaign has been handled might suggest to viewers thatis handled might suggest to viewers that is true? i handled might suggest to viewers that is true?— that is true? i backed rishi sunak because the _ that is true? i backed rishi sunak because the alternative _ that is true? i backed rishi sunak because the alternative was - that is true? i backed rishi sunak because the alternative was liz i because the alternative was liz truss, i think i have been vindicated on that. but truss, i thinki have been vindicated on that. but they were meant to be _ vindicated on that. but they were meant to be the _ vindicated on that. but they were meant to be the ones _ vindicated on that. but they were meant to be the ones that - vindicated on that. but they were meant to be the ones that had i vindicated on that. but they were meant to be the ones that had a | vindicated on that. but they were - meant to be the ones that had a plan for the election because they called it when other people didn't know. i don't personally understand why we are having an election injuly, i would have liked to have seen it later in the year. i'm pretty confident that we will see one or two interest rate cuts between now and november, and i would have preferred the party to have been fighting this election on the basis of interest rates falling. and probably on the basis of nigel farage having disappeared to the us to play games with candidate trump. that would have been a better backdrop from my point of view. we have heard interesting messages coming out of the labour campaign, shifting to telling people this is not in the bag, do you believe the polls? not in the bag, do you believe the olls? ., ., ., ., polls? not for one moment. especially — polls? not for one moment. especially these _ polls? not for one moment. especially these new - especially these new pseudoscientific mrp polls, essentially looking through a rear view mirror and trying to anticipate how people are going to make up their_ how people are going to make up their minds into macca weeks or however— their minds into macca weeks or however long it is, it seems like an eternity, _ however long it is, it seems like an eternity, and — however long it is, it seems like an eternity, and the fact is that many people _ eternity, and the fact is that many pennie are — eternity, and the fact is that many people are uncertain. some are undersized to do, some are doubtful, others _ undersized to do, some are doubtful, others are _ undersized to do, some are doubtful, others are leaning one way or another, _ others are leaning one way or another, but finally making up their mind _ another, but finally making up their mind -- _ another, but finally making up their mind. —— some are undecided. polls are dangerous because they generate are dangerous because they generate a sense _ are dangerous because they generate a sense of— are dangerous because they generate a sense of complacency that it is in the bank _ a sense of complacency that it is in the bank it— a sense of complacency that it is in the bank. it isn't. as bridget phillipson was saying, if people want _ phillipson was saying, if people want change in the country they are going _ want change in the country they are going to _ want change in the country they are going to have to go and vote for it. is going to have to go and vote for it. is that _ going to have to go and vote for it. is that really the case? we've had philip hammond saying the die was cast ages ago. isn't this just classic tactics from labour to get the boat out? i classic tactics from labour to get the beat out?— the boat out? i don't think it's a tactic, i the boat out? i don't think it's a tactic. i think — the boat out? i don't think it's a tactic, | think it's _ the boat out? i don't think it's a tactic, i think it's an _ the boat out? i don't think it's a l tactic, i think it's an observation, that if_ tactic, i think it's an observation, that if people do not go out and actually— that if people do not go out and actually vote, you will not get the change _ actually vote, you will not get the change of — actually vote, you will not get the change of government we need after 14 years. _ change of government we need after 14 years, this has gone on. if you take _ 14 years, this has gone on. if you take the — 14 years, this has gone on. if you take the batting story today, the reason _ take the batting story today, the reason you've got all of this going on is _ reason you've got all of this going on is because they have been in power— on is because they have been in power for— on is because they have been in power for too long. they've been in power— power for too long. they've been in power for— power for too long. they've been in power for too long. they've been in power for too long. they've been in power for too long for a good spell, without _ power for too long for a good spell, without a _ power for too long for a good spell, without a proper opposition under jeremy— without a proper opposition under jeremy corbyn. now they do face an effective _ jeremy corbyn. now they do face an effective alternative, an opposition, and people just look at the brand — opposition, and people just look at the brand of the conservatives and say they— the brand of the conservatives and say they have absolutely no interest in taking _ say they have absolutely no interest in taking norms, laws, rules, they think— in taking norms, laws, rules, they think they— in taking norms, laws, rules, they think they can do whatever they like. _ think they can do whatever they like. it— think they can do whatever they like. it is— think they can do whatever they like, it is time to go.— like, it is time to go. susanna, what has _ like, it is time to go. susanna, what has been _ like, it is time to go. susanna, what has been standing - like, it is time to go. susanna, what has been standing out. like, it is time to go. susanna, j what has been standing out for like, it is time to go. susanna, - what has been standing out for your viewers? every day you have been covering this election. we've heard about the big picture politics, but theissues about the big picture politics, but the issues are really important? hugely important. there is a huge number— hugely important. there is a huge number of— hugely important. there is a huge number of people _ hugely important. there is a huge number of people that _ hugely important. there is a huge number of people that are - hugely important. there is a huge i number of people that are undecided or unconvinced, _ number of people that are undecided or unconvinced, or, _ number of people that are undecided or unconvinced, or, in— number of people that are undecided or unconvinced, or, in some - number of people that are undecided or unconvinced, or, in some cases, l or unconvinced, or, in some cases, uninspired — or unconvinced, or, in some cases, uninspired to — or unconvinced, or, in some cases, uninspired to go _ or unconvinced, or, in some cases, uninspired to go and _ or unconvinced, or, in some cases, uninspired to go and vote. - or unconvinced, or, in some cases, uninspired to go and vote. i - or unconvinced, or, in some cases, uninspired to go and vote. i think. uninspired to go and vote. i think that is— uninspired to go and vote. i think that is a — uninspired to go and vote. i think that is a huge _ uninspired to go and vote. i think that is a huge problem. - uninspired to go and vote. i think that is a huge problem. i- uninspired to go and vote. i think that is a huge problem. i think. that is a huge problem. i think people — that is a huge problem. i think people are _ that is a huge problem. i think people are continuously- that is a huge problem. i think. people are continuously worried about— people are continuously worried about the — people are continuously worried about the cost _ people are continuously worried about the cost of— people are continuously worried about the cost of living, - people are continuously worried about the cost of living, about l about the cost of living, about massive — about the cost of living, about massive nhs— about the cost of living, about massive nhs waiting - about the cost of living, about massive nhs waiting lists, - about the cost of living, about i massive nhs waiting lists, about crime, _ massive nhs waiting lists, about crime, about— massive nhs waiting lists, about crime, about immigration. - massive nhs waiting lists, about crime, about immigration. i- massive nhs waiting lists, about| crime, about immigration. i think they— crime, about immigration. i think they look— crime, about immigration. i think they took at— crime, about immigration. i think they look at what the _ they look at what the politicians are saying — they look at what the politicians are saying and _ they look at what the politicians are saying and they— they look at what the politicians are saying and they are - they look at what the politicians are saying and they are just - they look at what the politicians are saying and they are just not| are saying and they are just not sure _ are saying and they are just not sure whether _ are saying and they are just not sure whether they— are saying and they are just not sure whether they are - are saying and they are just not sure whether they are being - are saying and they are just not - sure whether they are being honest, transparent— sure whether they are being honest, transparent about _ sure whether they are being honest, transparent about how— sure whether they are being honest, transparent about how those - sure whether they are being honest, transparent about how those plans l transparent about how those plans are going — transparent about how those plans are going to— transparent about how those plans are going to he_ transparent about how those plans are going to be paid _ transparent about how those plans are going to be paid for. _ transparent about how those plans are going to be paid for. find - transparent about how those plans are going to be paid for.— are going to be paid for. and that a- lies are going to be paid for. and that a - lies to are going to be paid for. and that applies to all _ are going to be paid for. and that applies to all of _ are going to be paid for. and that applies to all of them _ are going to be paid for. and that applies to all of them in - are going to be paid for. and that l applies to all of them in your view? there's a sense that after 14 years of the _ there's a sense that after 14 years of the conservatives _ there's a sense that after 14 years of the conservatives being - there's a sense that after 14 years of the conservatives being in - of the conservatives being in government. _ of the conservatives being in government, nothing - of the conservatives being in government, nothing worksl of the conservatives being in - government, nothing works among of the conservatives being in _ government, nothing works among some people. _ government, nothing works among some people. things _ government, nothing works among some people. things are — government, nothing works among some people, things are broken. _ government, nothing works among some people, things are broken. it's _ people, things are broken. it's remarkable _ people, things are broken. it's remarkable that _ people, things are broken. it's remarkable that we _ people, things are broken. it's remarkable that we hear - people, things are broken. it's remarkable that we hear from | people, things are broken. it's - remarkable that we hear from lord hammond. — remarkable that we hear from lord hammond. who _ remarkable that we hear from lord hammond, who last— remarkable that we hear from lord hammond, who last time - remarkable that we hear from lord hammond, who last time i- remarkable that we hear from lord| hammond, who last time i checked remarkable that we hear from lord - hammond, who last time i checked was a conservative, — hammond, who last time i checked was a conservative, who— hammond, who last time i checked was a conservative, who is— hammond, who last time i checked was a conservative, who is critical— hammond, who last time i checked was a conservative, who is critical of- a conservative, who is critical of prime _ a conservative, who is critical of prime ministers— a conservative, who is critical of prime ministers of— a conservative, who is critical of prime ministers of the - a conservative, who is critical of prime ministers of the same - a conservative, who is critical of. prime ministers of the same party over the _ prime ministers of the same party over the last — prime ministers of the same party over the last 14— prime ministers of the same party over the last 14 years. _ prime ministers of the same party over the last 14 years. when - prime ministers of the same party over the last 14 years. when it - over the last 14 years. when it comes— over the last 14 years. when it comes to _ over the last 14 years. when it comes to the _ over the last 14 years. when it comes to the opposition, - over the last 14 years. when itj comes to the opposition, huge over the last 14 years. when it - comes to the opposition, huge things need to— comes to the opposition, huge things need to change _ comes to the opposition, huge things need to change. and _ comes to the opposition, huge things need to change. and they _ comes to the opposition, huge things need to change. and they are - comes to the opposition, huge things need to change. and they are just - need to change. and they are just not sure _ need to change. and they are just not sure those _ need to change. and they are just not sure those things _ need to change. and they are just not sure those things are - need to change. and they are just not sure those things are going i need to change. and they are just not sure those things are going to change. _ not sure those things are going to change. that— not sure those things are going to change, that things _ not sure those things are going to change, that things are _ not sure those things are going to change, that things are going - not sure those things are going to change, that things are going to l change, that things are going to improve, — change, that things are going to improve, because _ change, that things are going to improve, because where - change, that things are going to improve, because where is - change, that things are going to improve, because where is the i change, that things are going to - improve, because where is the money for it? _ improve, because where is the money for it? . , improve, because where is the money for it? ., , ., ., , for it? that is one of the things we will aet for it? that is one of the things we will get into _ for it? that is one of the things we will get into later. _ for it? that is one of the things we will get into later. thank— for it? that is one of the things we will get into later. thank you - for it? that is one of the things we will get into later. thank you for i will get into later. thank you for now. so, to our first interview then. months ago the prime minister chose stop the boats as his big slogan — the government's plan to send people arriving in the uk without permission to east africa was stuck at the top of the political agenda. but the boats haven't stopped. and only two migrants have gone to rwanda — and they've gone voluntarily. the home secretary's here. now, one of your aids, whosejob it has been for two years to help you get the plan to send migrants to rwanda fully enacted was recorded giving this opinion about the scheme. let's listen to what he had to say. so the policy is crap, according to your own team? i so the policy is crap, according to your own team?— so the policy is crap, according to our own team? . ., y., , your own team? i am glad you played, thank ou, your own team? i am glad you played, thank you. it's — your own team? i am glad you played, thank you, it's important _ your own team? i am glad you played, thank you, it's important you - your own team? i am glad you played, thank you, it's important you played i thank you, it's important you played the whole answer. i know james thank you, it's important you played the whole answer. i knowjames has worked incredibly hard on the policy, getting the safety over or under a bill through. while the opening words were clearly designed to shock and grab the attention of the audience, the point he made was absolutely right in the latter part of the quote, which is the effect, the deterrent effect on the people smuggling gangs and the people they are trying to make money from is what we are seeking to achieve. he's absolutely right that, in other places where that deterrent has been put in place, most famously australia, it's been having an indeed, a number of other european countries are exploring third country processing arrangement similar to rwanda. the only people seemingly that are heading in the other direction is labour. so whilst a lot of other countries are now exploring plans like rwanda, labour are the one saying they are going to scrap it, even though the deterrent effect is already starting to have an impact. tote effect is already starting to have an impact-— an impact. we will come to the deterrent _ an impact. we will come to the deterrent effect _ an impact. we will come to the deterrent effect on _ an impact. we will come to the deterrent effect on a _ an impact. we will come to the deterrent effect on a second, l deterrent effect on a second, because actually the numbers are extremely high right now. but one of your own team told a friendly, private audience, when he didn't realise he was being recorded, that he thought the policy was crap. we've just heard the point he made. he clearly said that to grab the attention of the audience. mira; he clearly said that to grab the attention of the audience. why would ou do that attention of the audience. why would you do that with _ attention of the audience. why would you do that with a _ attention of the audience. why would you do that with a private, _ attention of the audience. why would you do that with a private, friendly i you do that with a private, friendly audience of conservative supporters? i'm glad you played the full quote, because that made it absolutely clear that james, because that made it absolutely clearthatjames, i because that made it absolutely clear thatjames, i know how committed he is to the policy because he worked tirelessly with the rest of the team to try to get the rest of the team to try to get the bill through the house so we could implement it, he said, and people can listen to it again, when the flights take off, it will send a shock wave across the channel. the deterrent will dissuade people smuggling gangs, and dissuade the people that they are preying upon to make money. that is the point. he said it's the effect. why he picked the word crap, i don't know. what said it's the effect. why he picked the word crap, i don't know. what is crap about — the word crap, i don't know. what is crap about it? _ the word crap, i don't know. what is crap about it? he _ the word crap, i don't know. what is crap about it? he made _ the word crap, i don't know. what is crap about it? he made the - the word crap, i don't know. what is crap about it? he made the point i crap about it? he made the point that when the _ crap about it? he made the point that when the flights _ crap about it? he made the point that when the flights take - crap about it? he made the point that when the flights take off, i crap about it? he made the point i that when the flights take off, they will only take off under the conservatives, there will be a shock wave across the channel and that is what the point is. you wave across the channel and that is what the point is.— what the point is. you can't guarantee _ what the point is. you can't guarantee that _ what the point is. you can't guarantee that the - what the point is. you can't guarantee that the flights l what the point is. you can't i guarantee that the flights will what the point is. you can't - guarantee that the flights will take off if you do when the selection. i guarantee under labour it bear they won't. tote guarantee under labour it bear they won't. ~ . ~ guarantee under labour it bear they won't. ~ ., ,, ., ., ., won't. we will talk to labour later in the programme _ won't. we will talk to labour later in the programme and _ won't. we will talk to labour later in the programme and throughout won't. we will talk to labour later- in the programme and throughout the campaign, and what our viewers want to do is to concentrate on the policies of each party when we are speaking to them.— policies of each party when we are speaking to them. labour will not be allowed to talk _ speaking to them. labour will not be allowed to talk about _ speaking to them. labour will not be allowed to talk about the _ allowed to talk about the conservatives?— allowed to talk about the conservatives? , ., , , conservatives? the problem with this is that one of — conservatives? the problem with this is that one of your _ conservatives? the problem with this is that one of your team, _ conservatives? the problem with this is that one of your team, speaking i is that one of your team, speaking privately, said the policy was crap. you yourself said that the policy was something too rude to say on tv at 9am. unless you want to deny that now? . , at 9am. unless you want to deny that now? ., , ., at 9am. unless you want to deny that now? . , . ., ., , now? that is what yvette cooper has been saying- — now? that is what yvette cooper has been saying- i _ now? that is what yvette cooper has been saying. i have _ now? that is what yvette cooper has been saying. i have been _ now? that is what yvette cooper has been saying. i have been absolutely| been saying. i have been absolutely consistent that where i have had frustrations, it is because we spoke almost exclusively about rwanda and we didn't speak about things like the small boat operation command. hang on, this is an important point. because it has been reported... it has been reported many times, and until now you have not denied that you used a very rude word to describe the policy. are you now denying that? i’ge describe the policy. are you now denying that?— describe the policy. are you now den in: that? �* , , ., denying that? i've said this before, i said this denying that? i've said this before, i said this in _ denying that? i've said this before, i said this in an _ denying that? i've said this before, i said this in an interview _ denying that? i've said this before, i said this in an interview within i i said this in an interview within days of being appointed that my frustration, and if i have used intemperate language, is because my frustration was, as a government, we spoke exclusively about one policy, and did not speak about all the other things, like immigration enforcement, who send dozens of people every single week, sometimes hundred, deported, who have no right to be here. we didn't talk about that which is why yvette cooper is thinking about having this allegedly new returns unit, which is exactly what immigration enforcement already does, they bought a command, which is exactly what a small boat operation is.— is exactly what a small boat 0 eration is. ~ , ., ~ is exactly what a small boat 0 eration is. ~ , ., ,, ., operation is. we will be talking to labour operation is. we will be talking to labour later— operation is. we will be talking to labour later in _ operation is. we will be talking to labour later in the _ operation is. we will be talking to labour later in the programme. i operation is. we will be talking to l labour later in the programme. but if your policy is so effective, and you believe that it is a deterrent, and will be a deterrent, why did almost 900 people arrive across the channel on tuesday?— channel on tuesday? well, there is alwa s a channel on tuesday? well, there is always a whole _ channel on tuesday? well, there is always a whole load _ channel on tuesday? well, there is always a whole load of _ channel on tuesday? well, there is always a whole load of complicated | always a whole load of complicated factors. what we actually saw in the weeks leading up to those figures, and they are disappointing and frustrating figures, an extended period of good weather where almost no one came across the channel. so if you are going to report the bad days you should also report the good days. days you should also report the good da s. v days you should also report the good da 5. �* , ., ., 4' days you should also report the good da s. �*, ., ., ., days. ok, let's look at another figure--- _ days. ok, let's look at another figure... you _ days. ok, let's look at another figure... you should _ days. ok, let's look at another figure... you should also i days. ok, let's look at another| figure... you should also report days. ok, let's look at another i figure... you should also report the fact that because _ figure... you should also report the fact that because of _ figure... you should also report the fact that because of the _ figure... you should also report the l fact that because of the arrangement we have with the french, the french coastal authorities, they were stopping hundreds of people attempting to cross. again, figures that aren't reported. we need to look at these things in the round. if it's going so well, why have more than 12,000 people crossed so far this year on the same period in the last four years? 12,000 people. the people smugglers are constantly changing their tactics. one of the things that worries me most is they are forcing more and more people into boats which wheat is why we've sadly seen fatalities including some very young people because of the people smugglers changing their tactics, but we are applying pressure, we are committed to doing so, and the point is at elections it's about choices and we are committed to stopping the boats and... ,., , ., committed to stopping the boats and... , ., and... the point is that commitment is obviously — and... the point is that commitment is obviously not _ and... the point is that commitment is obviously not working. _ and... the point is that commitment is obviously not working. this - and... the point is that commitment is obviously not working. this is i is obviously not working. this is the oint is obviously not working. this is the point i'm — is obviously not working. this is the point i'm going _ is obviously not working. this is the point i'm going to _ is obviously not working. this is the point i'm going to make, i is obviously not working. this is| the point i'm going to make, we is obviously not working. this is i the point i'm going to make, we are committed to constantly evolve, this is why rwanda is so important, because you cannot credibly say that you will do less and this is the labour party's vision, they said they will do less and somehow achieve more and it'sjust not credible. achieve more and it's 'ust not credible. ., ,, . ., , ., credible. home secretary, our viewers want _ credible. home secretary, our viewers want us _ credible. home secretary, our viewers want us to _ credible. home secretary, our viewers want us to talk - credible. home secretary, our viewers want us to talk about | credible. home secretary, our- viewers want us to talk about your policies and your record. now, 12,000 people have crossed the channel in small boats so far this year, up on previous years, even though, for more than two years, your party has been talking about this rule and a plan, you've been saying you are committed to it, you've been pushing various different pieces of legislation through parliament and in this era of social media and smartphones people coming to this country have heard about this policy of trying to send people to rewind and yet the numbers are still going up. there is not evidence this is working as a deterrent even if you do manage to get a plane off the ground. i remember reports not long ago where the irish government were uncomfortable because they were seeing people people coming to their country because they didn't want to be sent to rwanda. you country because they didn't want to be sent to rwanda.— country because they didn't want to be sent to rwanda. you want to stop the channel — be sent to rwanda. you want to stop the channel crossings _ be sent to rwanda. you want to stop the channel crossings because i be sent to rwanda. you want to stop the channel crossings because it's i the channel crossings because it's dangerous and terrible, they are still crossing the channel even if they then go on to ireland. band still crossing the channel even if they then go on to ireland. and this is wh the they then go on to ireland. and this is why the deterrent _ they then go on to ireland. and this is why the deterrent of _ they then go on to ireland. and this is why the deterrent of susanna, i is why the deterrent of susanna, this is the pointjames is why the deterrent of susanna, this is the point james was is why the deterrent of susanna, this is the pointjames was making, when those first flights take off it will have a shock wave —— is heated deterrent of rwanda. we and other european nations who are struggling with the number of people the people smugglers are pushing through the european countries, we work together. i speak regularly still, even though there is an election called, i still converse regularly with the interior ministers across europe. this is a europe—wide challenge and the point is we are constantly evolving our response. and your response has not been working... and your response has not been working- - -_ and your response has not been workint... , working... please let me finish the oint, working... please let me finish the point. this — working... please let me finish the point. this is _ working... please let me finish the point, this is key, _ working... please let me finish the point, this is key, we've _ working... please let me finish the point, this is key, we've constantly been evolving our response in close cooperation with europeans and others, which is why the number of people who have been stopped has also increased, but the point i'm making and then i'll stop, i promise, the point i'm making is one of the responses to the people smugglers changing tactics is the rwanda scheme and labour say they will scrap it which means they will do less and somehow hope to achieve more. ., �* ., ., ,., more. you've made that point alread . more. you've made that point already- it's — more. you've made that point already. it's not _ more. you've made that point already. it's not credible. it's| more. you've made that point| already. it's not credible. it's a oint already. it's not credible. it's a point we've _ already. it's not credible. it's a point we've discussed - already. it's not credible. it's a point we've discussed on i already. it's not credible. it's a i point we've discussed on several occasions with the labour party. the point is that this plan has not had a deterrent effect. the numbers are going up. you have no guarantee a plane will take off. there are around a dozen challenges launched in british courts to this. how can you tell our viewers with any credibility you can be sure planes will take off if you managed to hang on at the election? fine will take off if you managed to hang on at the election?— on at the election? one of the reasons we — on at the election? one of the reasons we have _ on at the election? one of the reasons we have utilised i on at the election? one of the reasons we have utilised the i reasons we have utilised the voluntary returns, those people... the two people. it’s voluntary returns, those people... the two people-— the two people. it's a proof of concept. _ the two people. it's a proof of concept. it _ the two people. it's a proof of concept, it shows _ the two people. it's a proof of concept, it shows the - the two people. it's a proof of| concept, it shows the receiving the two people. it's a proof of i concept, it shows the receiving end of the system is working, they are safe, the feedback we have and i'm not going to go into details because it would be inappropriate... hang on, ou it would be inappropriate... hang on. you are _ it would be inappropriate... hang on. you are trying _ it would be inappropriate... hang on, you are trying to _ it would be inappropriate... hang on, you are trying to use - it would be inappropriate... hang on, you are trying to use the i on, you are trying to use the example of two people, two people, when you have an asylum backlog of more than 100,000 people, two people going voluntarily take a different scheme, you are trying to use that as evidence it will work? if i finish the — as evidence it will work? it i finish the answer you as evidence it will work? iii finish the answer you will understand the point i'm trying to make, it's not about the volume of people, it's proof about the safety of rwanda because that's the legal sticking point we've had in the past. rwanda has demonstrated, both to the refugees the united nations tend to rwanda and the ones who come from the uk, that they are safe, welcoming country. that undermines the legal argument against the flights. it proves the concept rwanda is a safe country which undermines the legal argument @ it will be interesting to see what the courts say because there are around a dozen challenges in british courts on whether or not this is a legal scheme but there are more things we want to talk about. one thing that's important to some viewers that the government didn't deliver before calling the election is what's known as martin's law, which was suggested after the manchester arena bomb, named after martyn hett, who died in that attack and i know viewers know you met with his mother and here is a picture of that meeting taking place. you've promised urgently to introduce it but would you do it with wind the first 100 days if you hang on? i with wind the first 100 days if you hant on? with wind the first 100 days if you hanaon? , �*, ., ,~ hang on? i met martyn's family and cam -aain hang on? i met martyn's family and campaign as — hang on? i met martyn's family and campaign as i _ hang on? i met martyn's family and campaign as i said _ hang on? i met martyn's family and campaign as i said at _ hang on? i met martyn's family and campaign as i said at the _ hang on? i met martyn's family and campaign as i said at the time i hang on? i met martyn's family and campaign as i said at the time that| campaign as i said at the time that if, and i was quite clear, that if for whatever reason we weren't able to get that law passed in this parliament, and that meeting i didn't know that the election was going to be called, but i said if there is a delay because of an election the conservatives would absolutely prioritise this immediately upon reforming the government was right that would be if you manage to hang on, in the kings speech, you would do it straightaway? absolute commitment to do it straightaway because they've been waiting too long, it's a policy where we need to get the balance right, we needed to make sure the bigger resources who have the —— the bigger resources who have the —— the bigger venues who have the resources and capability are properly defending the people who come to those venues but also we want to make sure the little music venues in the back room of a pub or whatever are viable and that was part of the delay, but we are absolutely committed, i made this point at the time, we are committed to get this law on the statute books as an absolute priority.— law on the statute books as an absolute priority. one of the other thins absolute priority. one of the other thin . s that absolute priority. one of the other things that families _ absolute priority. one of the other things that families of _ absolute priority. one of the other things that families of victims i absolute priority. one of the other things that families of victims of i things that families of victims of terror attacks have asked for for many years, it's what's known as a survivor is' charter, a promise of compensation and help with mental health in the wake of something terrible and families like the family of murdered mpjo cox have been involved in that campaign for that survivors' charter. would you give a similar commitment finally to get that done? they've been appealing to rishi sunak in the last two days. i appealing to rishi sunak in the last two da s. ., ., appealing to rishi sunak in the last two da 5. ., ., appealing to rishi sunak in the last two da s. ., ., ., two days. i want to look at the details of _ two days. i want to look at the details of that. _ two days. i want to look at the details of that. it's _ two days. i want to look at the details of that. it's very... i details of that. it's very... they've been asking for many years, the details are clear. the they've been asking for many years, the details are clear.— the details are clear. the point i've the details are clear. the point i've seen _ the details are clear. the point i've seen as — the details are clear. the point i've seen as home _ the details are clear. the point i've seen as home secretary i the details are clear. the point| i've seen as home secretary as circumstances are very different from one to another. having a kind of universal offer, by definition, would mean it's less tailored to the individual circumstances of those people who survived, and when you've gone through something as horrific as a terrorist attack i would want to make sure that the response is bespoke to the individuals rather than general stop i can understand the benefits to both. i'm not completely convinced a one size fits all offer is the most appropriate way we move forward, but i'm absolutely committed to making sure that the survivors of terror, and their families, that the survivors of terror, and theirfamilies, have the that the survivors of terror, and their families, have the appropriate support. their families, have the appropriate su ort. ., ,. ~ ., their families, have the appropriate su ort. ., ,. ~' ., ., support. ok, to your knowledge, home secreta , support. ok, to your knowledge, home secretary. did — support. ok, to your knowledge, home secretary. did any _ support. ok, to your knowledge, home secretary, did any ministers _ support. ok, to your knowledge, home secretary, did any ministers put - support. ok, to your knowledge, home secretary, did any ministers put bet i secretary, did any ministers put bet on the timing of the election? ilot on the timing of the election? not to m on the timing of the election? iirri to my knowledge. on the timing of the election? not to my knowledge. what _ on the timing of the election? not to my knowledge. what do - on the timing of the election? not to my knowledge. what do you i on the timing of the election? not| to my knowledge. what do you say on the timing of the election? not i to my knowledge. what do you say to viewers who — to my knowledge. what do you say to viewers who hear _ to my knowledge. what do you say to viewers who hear another _ to my knowledge. what do you say to viewers who hear another set - to my knowledge. what do you say to viewers who hear another set of i viewers who hear another set of allegations about another conservative, the head of data, nick mason, who is being looked into by the gambling commission? he has denied wrongdoing but is being looked into for placing bets on the timing of the election. the gambling commission has _ timing of the election. the gambling commission has made _ timing of the election. the gambling commission has made it _ timing of the election. the gambling commission has made it very - timing of the election. the gambling commission has made it very clear i timing of the election. the gambling. commission has made it very clear we should not discuss this investigation. i intend to to abide by the explicit instructions of the gambling commission which is not to discuss this which is frustrating but they've made it clear we shouldn't and i'm going to stick to that. ., ., , ., , that. two of the people in the sunday times _ that. two of the people in the sunday times reporting i that. two of the people in the sunday times reporting and l that. two of the people in the i sunday times reporting and that that. two of the people in the - sunday times reporting and that the bbc in the last few days, two of them are standing to become conservative mps. don't you think that voters actually have a right to know whether you are going to do anything about it?— know whether you are going to do anything about it? well, look, there is a system. — anything about it? well, look, there is a system, there _ anything about it? well, look, there is a system, there is _ anything about it? well, look, there is a system, there is a _ anything about it? well, look, there is a system, there is a process, - anything about it? well, look, there is a system, there is a process, the | is a system, there is a process, the gambling commission are doing the investigation, that's appropriate. in other circumstances, when keir starmer was being investigated, when angela ray and was being investigated, they both said they would stay in place until the culmination of that investigation. i think that is the right and appropriate way forward. are think that is the right and appropriate way forward. think that is the right and a- --roriate wa forward. �* ,, ., appropriate way forward. are you not bothered then? _ appropriate way forward. are you not bothered then? rishi _ appropriate way forward. are you not bothered then? rishi sunak- appropriate way forward. are you not bothered then? rishi sunak says - appropriate way forward. are you not bothered then? rishi sunak says he l bothered then? rishi sunak says he is terribly angry. what do you think about it? michael gove has said it's like partygate. i’zre about it? michael gove has said it's like inmate-— like partygate. i've been absolutely clear that from _ like partygate. i've been absolutely clear that from what _ like partygate. i've been absolutely clear that from what i've _ like partygate. i've been absolutely clear that from what i've read, - like partygate. i've been absolutely clear that from what i've read, i - like partygate. i've been absolutelyi clear that from what i've read, i am not in any way going to defend the actions of these individuals but i'm also conscious i don't have the full details. the only organisation that does is the gambling commission and it's right that they take action, whatever the appropriate action, and they've been clear that we should not discuss this and i'm going to abide by their instructions. except that rishi sunak, _ abide by their instructions. except that rishi sunak, when _ abide by their instructions. except that rishi sunak, when he - abide by their instructions. except| that rishi sunak, when he became prime minister, stood outside downing street, after all of the turmoil in the borisjohnson and liz truss, and he told the country, i will run a government with the highest standards of integrity and accountability. would the public have a right to feel terribly let down and frankly stick of what they've seen in the last few days? welcome as i say, the gambling commission are investigating this and it's right that they take action and it's right that they take action and depending on the result of their investigation, decisions will be made at that point but the point i said is i think it's right and appropriate that we let them do theirjob and again, i know this is frustrating for you and almost certainly frustrating for your viewers as well, but they've given really clear instructions that we should not discuss this, which is putting me in a difficult situation in this interview. i’m putting me in a difficult situation in this interview.— putting me in a difficult situation in this interview. i'm interested in whether you _ in this interview. i'm interested in whether you want _ in this interview. i'm interested in whether you want to _ in this interview. i'm interested in whether you want to tell - in this interview. i'm interested in whether you want to tell our - in this interview. i'm interested in i whether you want to tell our viewers this is something you disapprove of or maybe want to apologise for what appears to be yet another set of allegations about bad behaviour in the conservative party? you allegations about bad behaviour in the conservative party?— the conservative party? you are askin: the conservative party? you are asking me _ the conservative party? you are asking me to — the conservative party? you are asking me to comment - the conservative party? you are asking me to comment on - the conservative party? you are - asking me to comment on something that appears to be the case. i... rishi sunak has commented. i have said and again _ rishi sunak has commented. i have said and again you _ rishi sunak has commented. i have said and again you are _ rishi sunak has commented. i have said and again you are asking - rishi sunak has commented. i have said and again you are asking me i rishi sunak has commented. i have| said and again you are asking me to repeat myself on things i said a few days ago, if people have acted inappropriately i'm not going to defend that. i'm happy to condemn that. but the point is thatjust as others in other parties have made it clear that the appropriate thing to do is wait for investigations to be concluded before we decide whether or not sanctions are appropriate and what they should be, that is the case here, and, as i say, i've been told, i've been told explicitly by the gambling commission, not to discuss this. the gambling commission, not to discuss this-— discuss this. ok, home secretary james discuss this. ok, home secretary james cleverly — discuss this. ok, home secretary james cleverly thanks _ discuss this. ok, home secretary james cleverly thanks for - discuss this. ok, home secretary james cleverly thanks for coming | discuss this. ok, home secretary i james cleverly thanks for coming in, james cleverly thanks for coming in, it's great to have you in the studio, we'll let you get back to knocking doors whether in your shorts orjeans, have a good day campaigning, thanks for coming in. well, let's talk to the labour party. bridget phillipson wants to be in charge of england's classrooms in a couple of weeks' time. we've heard before about her plans for childcare and one of labour's main promises is to recruit 6,500 more teachers, paid for by taking away private schools' exemption on vat. they hope it will raise £i.5 they hope it will raise £1.5 billion a year, so there are plenty of other things to discuss with her this morning. bridget, good to have you with us. i'm sure in the context of a campaign labourwill with us. i'm sure in the context of a campaign labour will enjoy having two embarrassing issues for the conservatives this morning, but when it comes to rwanda and our discussion with james cleverly, labour doesn't have an alternative to the rwanda deterrent, do they? how will you put people off trying to cross the channel? figs how will you put people off trying to cross the channel?— how will you put people off trying to cross the channel? as we've 'ust heard from — to cross the channel? as we've 'ust heard from james i to cross the channel? as we've 'ust heard from james cleverly, i to cross the channel? as we've 'ust heard from james cleverly, his i to cross the channel? as we've just heard from james cleverly, his aide used slightly more temperate language than he has used about this in the past, it's clear this policy is not working, we've got to process cases, we've got to deal with the backlog and alongside that our commitment is to a border security command that will deal at source with the criminal gangs. we will approach it as a national security issue. keir starmer spent his time as a chief prosecutor clamping down on exactly these kinds of gangs. we are serious about doing it. we have to make sure we protect our borders. but if the conservatives thought that this plan around rwanda was going to work, they'd get flights off the ground, i'm not sure they'd have called the election for now. yvette cooper has said that she'd be willing to look at third country options, in other words sending people who come here or trying to process them in other countries, and there are other countries around the eu as james cleverly said starting to look at this kind of approach. what would be your alternative to trying to stop people even hoping to trying to stop people even hoping to try to come to the uk in this way? your approach of smashing the gangs is very similar to what the government is already doing. it will focus directly _ government is already doing. it will focus directly at _ government is already doing. it will focus directly at source _ government is already doing. it will focus directly at source on - government is already doing. it ii focus directly at source on dealing with the issue, so our border security command will have an extra 1000 cross—border officers that will deal with the gangs that will seek to smash the gangs but alongside that it's scandalous we are spending millions of pounds every day on unsuitable hotel accommodation. we've got to clear that backlog. the conservatives have completely broken the asylum system, completely broken it. they know themselves that this one gimmick isn't going to work. we've heard from the home secretary, the fruity language he used to describe this, we've heard from his aide that he thinks the policy is crap, so let's get on and do things that will actually work in making sure we secure our borders, process sure we secure our borders, process cases sure we secure our borders, process cases and make sure people who don't have a right to be here are returned because alongside that returns have fallen through the floor. if you want more returns with the eu, they might be a quid pro quo? we are eu, they might be a quid pro quo? , are seeing the usual desperate lies... ., ,, are seeing the usual desperate lies... ., ., , ., lies... could you answer that question? — lies... could you answer that question? we _ lies... could you answer that question? we need - lies... could you answer that question? we need to - lies... could you answer that question? we need to make| lies... could you answer that - question? we need to make sure we aet question? we need to make sure we net to a question? we need to make sure we get to a position _ question? we need to make sure we get to a position where _ question? we need to make sure we get to a position where we _ question? we need to make sure we get to a position where we have - get to a position where we have better returns agreements. for example, that would be around family reunification. it would be subject to negotiation. these outlandish claims we see in the newspapers from the conservatives are just desperate lies. and we see them on so many areas of policy. they got nothing positive to say about the future of our country. all they want to do is scaremonger. made up ideas as to what labour wouldn't actually do. nothing comes for free what labour wouldn't actually do. nothing comes forfree in what labour wouldn't actually do. nothing comes for free in any negotiation, whether it is with the eu or anyone else, would you come theory, when talking about returns agreements, considertaking theory, when talking about returns agreements, consider taking other people from other countries? you have said we might look a family reunion and that suggests you might well? we reunion and that suggests you might well? ~ ., , ., ., , well? we will not be part of any eu uuota well? we will not be part of any eu quota system. _ well? we will not be part of any eu quota system, and _ well? we will not be part of any eu quota system, and any _ well? we will not be part of any eu quota system, and any suggestion | well? we will not be part of any eu i quota system, and any suggestion of that kind is completely wrong. we will take a tough and firm approach in making sure we have a functioning asylum and immigration system. we don't have that at the moment. people the that have the right to be here have their cases processed quickly and those that are found not to have a case are returned. the conservatives have failed on this. all they've got now is throwing mud. 0ur viewers want us to test out your policies, and not to allow whoever is in the chair spend a lot of time attacking their opponents. have you ever put a bet on political events? no, i don't think. there only a few occasions in my life when i have ever gambled, it's not really my thing. i don't think that's the point. the issue is whether those people who had inside knowledge of what was going on used that information in placing a bet. people across the country will place bets, but i think there is genuine discussed amongst so many voters that what we are seeing here is pretty shocking behaviour. rishi sunak promised that his government would be different. he has not acted against candidates concerned. he should suspend them. us michael gove has said, itjust reminds people of the worst excesses of the conservatives over the last iii years. if people want five more years. if people want five more years of this, if they want to put a stop to this, all of this chaos, they have to go and vote. again, we want to focus _ they have to go and vote. again, we want to focus on _ they have to go and vote. again, we want to focus on your _ they have to go and vote. again, we want to focus on your policies, - they have to go and vote. again, we want to focus on your policies, as i want to focus on your policies, as we did with james cleverly on the conservatives. you hope to be in charge of england's schools and education system. one of the things we know from our view is that people are really concerned about is children and technology. in our studio, i think many people remember the mother of the murdered teenager she spoke about that, and part of the solution is to ban smartphones for under 16s, and a group of powerful mps, the education select committee has suggested that having a proper legal ban on phones in schools in england is something that is worth considering. would you consider that?— is worth considering. would you consider that? when it comes to schools, consider that? when it comes to schools. i _ consider that? when it comes to schools, i don't _ consider that? when it comes to schools, i don't believe - consider that? when it comes to schools, i don't believe that - schools, i don't believe that children should have their phone is available to use during the school day. it's so much of a destruction, it causes so many problems. the vast majority of schools already do that. that's happening already.— majority of schools already do that. that's happening already. would you make it a legal _ that's happening already. would you make it a legal ban _ that's happening already. would you make it a legal ban so _ that's happening already. would you make it a legal ban so every - that's happening already. would you make it a legal ban so every school | make it a legal ban so every school does it? a lot of viewers would know fine well there are plenty of children using phones during school hours. , ., ., ., , hours. they do it already under schools struggle _ hours. they do it already under schools struggle to _ hours. they do it already under schools struggle to enforce - hours. they do it already under| schools struggle to enforce this. not all schools have lockers where children can put phones away. the simple expectation is that children do not have phones that they are using during the school day. the problem teachers and school leaders tell me as it is less about what goes on in school, because they can make sure that it is enforced and kids do not have their phones available to them, it's the consequences that follow around the school day. sometimes what we see around social media, bullying of young people, the rising tide of misogyny we are seeing online, the fact young people are increasingly being targeted by hostile states, seeking to influence and shape democratic outcomes. young people need to have the skills to look at what is there and in front of them and question and challenge. that's what i want to deliver.— what i want to deliver. before we talk about a _ what i want to deliver. before we talk about a different _ what i want to deliver. before we talk about a different aspect - what i want to deliver. before we talk about a different aspect of. talk about a different aspect of that, on the plan and your hope that children in school should not be using their phones, sometimes, the education select committee say it is worth thinking about this, to make it easierfor worth thinking about this, to make it easier for schools you should make a ban legal? because not all schools ban it, some head teachers want legal backing from whoever is in government in order to make their life easier. again, are you saying that you would not consider going that you would not consider going that far and having a legal ban on phones in schools?— that far and having a legal ban on phones in schools? school already do this and i phones in schools? school already do this and l exoect _ phones in schools? school already do this and i expect them _ phones in schools? school already do this and i expect them to _ phones in schools? school already do this and i expect them to enforce - this and i expect them to enforce it, ifi this and i expect them to enforce it, if i were education secretary. this is important, but i think it's part of a much bigger challenge that young people are facing at the moment. what school leaders tell me more widely is that they want a government that has got their back, that recognises the wider challenges they are facing at the moment. that's why, if i am education secretary any labour government, i want to reset and rebuild that relationship between government and schools, and with the teaching profession. this is one of a number of really big challenges they are seeking to grapple with the moment. and they don't feel valued or respected in the work they are doing. respected in the work they are doinu. ., ., , ., , ., doing. there are lots of things that schools in the _ doing. there are lots of things that schools in the 2020s _ doing. there are lots of things that schools in the 2020s grapple - doing. there are lots of things that schools in the 2020s grapple with, | schools in the 2020s grapple with, one is the concept of gender identity. the government published draft guidance that included banning teaching the idea of the concept of gender identity. it is due to start being used later in the year. if you win the election, will that still happen? win the election, will that still ha--en?, , g win the election, will that still hauen? , ., �* win the election, will that still hauen? , �* ., , happen? just to say, i'm not sure that is quite — happen? just to say, i'm not sure that is quite right. _ happen? just to say, i'm not sure that is quite right. the _ happen? just to say, i'm not sure i that is quite right. the government published draft guidance which is subject to consultation, the consultation is closed at the point at which the election was called, it was being considered. the exoectation _ was being considered. the expectation was _ was being considered. the expectation was this would be brought in. expectation was this would be brought in-— brought in. the principle of guidance — brought in. the principle of guidance is _ brought in. the principle of guidance is an _ brought in. the principle of guidance is an important i brought in. the principle of i guidance is an important one, brought in. the principle of - guidance is an important one, that is what i hear from school leaders across the country. they want clarity on what is a sensitive and difficult area for them. i think what we need to say on this, we absolutely need to see guidance. if we win the trust of the british people, a labour government will make sure that happens. let's make sure that children's well—being is at the heart of this. let's stop this being a politicalfootball. this is children's lives, their well—being, it is too important to make this a culture wars issue on the front pages of newspapers. let's take a more responsible approach, give schools the clear guidance they need and make sure young people are supported. mr; need and make sure young people are suuorted. g , ., , need and make sure young people are suuorted. y , ., , . supported. my question is what your uuidance supported. my question is what your guidance would _ supported. my question is what your guidance would be. _ supported. my question is what your guidance would be. what _ supported. my question is what your guidance would be. what do - supported. my question is what your guidance would be. what do you - guidance would be. what do you believe teachers should be advised to do? what the conservative government has suggested they would do is ban the teaching of the concept of gender identity. is that what you would tell schools to do? many aspects of the draft had a good and straightforward principles in it. other elements, ithink, drifted far too much into partisan and unnecessary language that i think makes it harderfor unnecessary language that i think makes it harder for schools to navigate this. if i were education secretary, i would want to look at the responses we have received to the responses we have received to the consultation. i know that school leaders have flagged areas they feel are still outstanding within the guidance. we would want to look at that, do it responsibly, work with parents, young people and the profession, to get this right. this has been... ministers have been rowing about this for months and months. that is not the way to deal with this. i months. that is not the way to deal with this. ., ., , , , months. that is not the way to deal with this. ., ., , ,, i. ., with this. i want to press you on this, it with this. i want to press you on this. it is _ with this. i want to press you on this. it is a _ with this. i want to press you on this, it is a sensitive _ with this. i want to press you on this, it is a sensitive issue - with this. i want to press you on this, it is a sensitive issue and l with this. i want to press you on | this, it is a sensitive issue and of great importance to some people, some teachers have felt very anxious. you say some elements of the plan are ok, some are not. would you ditch the ban on teaching the concept of gender identity. there are trans people _ concept of gender identity. there are trans people within _ concept of gender identity. there are trans people within society i concept of gender identity. rice are trans people within society and their existence should be recognised. this drifts i thinker, into a slightly bizarre conversation. there are trans people, they have a right for their existence to be recognised. many trans people are vulnerable and deserving of support. alongside that, we got to make sure that schools have clear guidance about how best to support children and young people who are experiencing distress and issues around their well—being. that is not well served by ministers picking fights, seeking headlines. let's take a more responsible approach, let's take the heat out of it. let's do this properly and seriously. there are --eole in properly and seriously. there are people in the _ properly and seriously. there are people in the labour— properly and seriously. there are people in the labour movement l properly and seriously. there are i people in the labour movement who are very unhappy about how labour has handled this issue. jk rowling, who was a vocal backer and financial backer of the last labour government has said she is not sure that she can vote labour because of the position that the party has taken and how keir starmer has handled this tricky issue. the balance between the rights for women and the rights of transgender people. she said labour had abandoned women. what do you say to her? i’m what do you say to her? i'm genuinely — what do you say to her? i'm genuinely sorry _ what do you say to her? i�*m genuinely sorry to hear that, because i have a real degree of respect forjk rowling, and all of the work she has done on raising awareness about violence against women and girls. that's personal to me too. i would say let's look at the work that labour has done before in this area and what we are committed to doing now. we will halve violence against women and girls and make sure those responsible face the full consequences of the law. we will go after those people that, time and again, the men that target women and make their lives a misery. we will put more police on our streets. she is talkini put more police on our streets. she is talking specifically about how labour has handled what is a very sensitive issue, she believes labour has abandoned women. what do you say to her? it's not about your record on other areas, on this issue, what would your message be? it’s on other areas, on this issue, what would your message be?— would your message be? it's also very personal _ would your message be? it's also very personal to _ would your message be? it's also very personalto me, _ would your message be? it's also very personalto me, i _ would your message be? it's also very personalto me, i want - would your message be? it's also very personal to me, i want to i would your message be? it's also i very personalto me, i want to make very personal to me, i want to make sure that women get the support and the justice that they deserve. and that we do make sure we have services that are available for women around rape and sexual violence, and there are important provisions already there in the equality act that allowed for single sex provision. alongside that, let's make sure that trans people get the support they need. i would say that you should judge us on what we have donein you should judge us on what we have done in the past to support women and look at what we are setting out right now to make sure that we get rape prosecutions, we tackle domestic violence, that young women in schools are not facing harassment.— in schools are not facing harassment. �*, . ,, ., harassment. let's talk about something — harassment. let's talk about something else _ harassment. let's talk about something else that - harassment. let's talk about something else that is - harassment. let's talk about something else that is a - harassment. let's talk about something else that is a big | harassment. let's talk about - something else that is a big concern to lots of families, and lots of staff, and lecturers, and universities around the country. many are in realfinancial difficulties. you called it a crisis in higher education. on a point of principle, if you become education secretary, would you use taxpayer money to bail out a university that might otherwise go under? universities are in crisis and i am concerned about that. the challenges that i know the government have been doing work in the area to understand the full extent of what is going on in the sector. we don't have the same access to that. we have to tread with real care, because universities right across our country, towns and cities are really important engines of growth and opportunity, and growth till eu jobs. i wouldn't want anything to happen to education where if an institution runs into trouble, that would happen. the office for students hubby looking up this area and been publishing recommendations. but what is your plan? this is a very real issue, and some universities appear to be on the brink. it's a question of principle. if you win the election, would you use taxpayer cash to bail out a university? i use taxpayer cash to bail out a university?— use taxpayer cash to bail out a universi ? ., �* ~ . ., university? i don't think that would be necessary. _ university? i don't think that would be necessary, there _ university? i don't think that would be necessary, there are _ university? i don't think that would be necessary, there are measures| university? i don't think that would i be necessary, there are measures to stabilise it. ., . , ., stabilise it. your manifesto has ve little stabilise it. your manifesto has very little detail, _ stabilise it. your manifesto has very little detail, what - stabilise it. your manifesto has very little detail, what would i stabilise it. your manifesto has - very little detail, what would those measures be? we very little detail, what would those measures be?— very little detail, what would those measures be? ~ . . . measures be? we are looking at areas where we can — measures be? we are looking at areas where we can strengthen _ measures be? we are looking at areas where we can strengthen financial- where we can strengthen financial regulation and oversight, and alongside that i would say it is a highly compact area where the modelling on this is incredibly difficult and we simply do not have the same level of access to any of that. ~ ., " the same level of access to any of that. ~ . " , ., the same level of access to any of that. ~ . " ., . that. we are 11 days from an election and _ that. we are 11 days from an election and you _ that. we are 11 days from an election and you have - that. we are 11 days from an election and you have been| that. we are 11 days from an - election and you have been shadow education secretary for quite some time. you must have looked at the details. it time. you must have looked at the details. ., , �* ., ~' time. you must have looked at the details. ., , �* ., ~ . details. it doesn't work in that wa . we details. it doesn't work in that way- we don't _ details. it doesn't work in that way. we don't have _ details. it doesn't work in that way. we don't have the - details. it doesn't work in that way. we don't have the same | details. it doesn't work in that - way. we don't have the same level of access to treasury modelling and ongoing discussions that are taking place with institutions about the health of the sector. we don't get that. what i can say very clearly is that. what i can say very clearly is that we will make sure that once again universities are recognised as the engines for growth across our country, we will not denigrate them in the way the conservatives have done. we will deliver a better system for taxpayers, students and graduates. share system for taxpayers, students and iraduates. . , ., ., graduates. are you saying, then, to students, parents, _ graduates. are you saying, then, to students, parents, maybe - graduates. are you saying, then, to students, parents, maybe even - students, parents, maybe even university vice chancellors who might be watching this morning, good morning to them if they are, it sounds like you are hinting at it but you don't quite want to spell it out, are you saying if you win the election you would not let universities go under? you would do whatever it takes to keep them afloat? ~ ., whatever it takes to keep them afloat? ~ . ., afloat? we are determined to maintain the _ afloat? we are determined to maintain the world _ afloat? we are determined to maintain the world leading i afloat? we are determined to - maintain the world leading status of our universities. they are renowned around the world, one of our best export industries. in our towns and cities they provide opportunities for adults, cities they provide opportunities foradults, notjust young cities they provide opportunities for adults, notjust young people, to get back into training, to get a second chance where maybe things have not worked out first time round. there are so many examples of where that is happening. they will be essential to our plans to drive economic growth, to make sure that right across our country people have access to well—paid, highly skilled jobs. and there will be a different relationship with our university sector if labour wins because we know they are so important so many communities. like my one in sunderland, millions of pounds, regeneration, growth, jobs, we have to have a different approach. did ou to have a different approach. did you thinkjeremy corbyn would be a great prime minister? i you thinkjeremy corbyn would be a great prime minister?— great prime minister? i thought if i was re great prime minister? i thought if i was pretty low _ great prime minister? i thought if i was pretty low in — great prime minister? i thought if i was pretty low in 2019 _ great prime minister? i thought if i was pretty low in 2019 in _ great prime minister? i thought if i was pretty low in 2019 in terms - great prime minister? i thought if i was pretty low in 2019 in terms of| was pretty low in 2019 in terms of the candidates that were there for prime minister. i didn't think jeremy corbyn was ever going to win, that was clear on the doorstep. i mean, let's be honest, it wasn't a great choice, it certainly wasn't a great choice, it certainly wasn't a great choice, it certainly wasn't a great choice that labour put forward in 2019. the difference now, however, is that keir starmer has got what it takes to be a brilliant prime minister of our country, and to turn a page on the years and years of tory chaos and division. that can only happen if people go out and broke for it. i would just say, people should not bother to take any interest in the polls, take nothing for granted, focus on do you want to wake up on the 5th ofjuly for another five years of all of the nonsense and division we have seen under the conservatives, or do we want a future for our country under keir starmer. want a future for our country under keir starmer-— want a future for our country under keir starmer. managing to squeeze some campaigning _ keir starmer. managing to squeeze some campaigning in _ keir starmer. managing to squeeze some campaigning in at _ keir starmer. managing to squeeze some campaigning in at the - keir starmer. managing to squeeze some campaigning in at the end, i keir starmer. managing to squeeze l some campaigning in at the end, but always good to have you in the studio. i'mjust always good to have you in the studio. i'm just as we wished james cleverly a good day campaigning, a good day to you. what do you think? let us know. email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use the hashtag bbclaurak and we'll try and share some of the conversation later in the show. the headlines are on the bbc live page as it unfolds. the address is there for you now. well, let's go to the panel. peter mandelson, what did you think of bridget phillipson there? talking about what may happen in the university sector, it's a big issue for people. would labour bail out failing universities? i tell for people. would labour bail out failing universities?— failing universities? i tell you one thin , failing universities? i tell you one thin, i failing universities? i tell you one thing. ithink_ failing universities? i tell you one thing, i think bridget _ failing universities? i tell you one thing, i think bridget phillipson . failing universities? i tell you one thing, i think bridget phillipson if| thing, i think bridget phillipson if the labour party is elected is going to be a star of the government. that interview was really, really impressive, not least because, you know, she kept the campaigning until the end, otherwise she addressed the issueis the end, otherwise she addressed the issue is very directly. now, with universities, this government has been sitting on its hands for years watching the financial models of universities being crippled, crippled. they denigrate the universities, they are driving away foreign students which import such revenue into our universities, they refuse to acknowledge there is even a financial crisis in many of our universities, so i would say two things. first of all, universities themselves have a responsibility for managing their finances better. themselves have a responsibility for managing theirfinances better. i happen to be chancellor of manchester metropolitan university, which really manages its finances in an absolutely first rate way. there are some who don't and they've got to shape up. but secondly, secondly, we've got to recognise that our universities are a tremendous asset, not only offering opportunities and social mobility for many young people who wouldn't otherwise be able to realise the potential and talent they have, but also absolutely central to our future prosperity and that's why we've got to invest in them, it's not so long ago you were chancellor, philip hammond. how much is this a problem you've allowed to develop and balloon and now there's a real nasty lurking under the bonnet?— balloon and now there's a real nasty lurking under the bonnet? there are lots of nasties _ lurking under the bonnet? there are lots of nasties lurking _ lurking under the bonnet? there are lots of nasties lurking under- lurking under the bonnet? there are lots of nasties lurking under the - lots of nasties lurking under the nick— lots of nasties lurking under the blick finance bonnet. that interview was very— blick finance bonnet. that interview was very interesting and frankly a snapshot — was very interesting and frankly a snapshot of what we've seen throughout this campaign from the labour— throughout this campaign from the labour party. plenty of ideas, plenty — labour party. plenty of ideas, plenty of _ labour party. plenty of ideas, plenty of aspirations, but when you try to _ plenty of aspirations, but when you try to pin— plenty of aspirations, but when you try to pin them down on how you deliver— try to pin them down on how you deliver and — try to pin them down on how you deliver and what it costs, they go all vague — deliver and what it costs, they go all vague on you. she said, we are going _ all vague on you. she said, we are going to _ all vague on you. she said, we are going to halve violence against women — going to halve violence against women and girls. we'll put more police _ women and girls. we'll put more police on — women and girls. we'll put more police on the streets, there are nieasures— police on the streets, there are measures that can be taken, you pressed — measures that can be taken, you pressed her on what these measures are pressed heron what these measures are but— pressed her on what these measures are but we _ pressed her on what these measures are but we didn't hear any answers and i'ni_ are but we didn't hear any answers and i'm afraid there is a growing concern — and i'm afraid there is a growing concern that there is a labour tax agenda _ concern that there is a labour tax agenda which is being concealed. keir starmer is being very carefully evasive _ keir starmer is being very carefully evasive around the issue of how labour — evasive around the issue of how labour is — evasive around the issue of how labour is going to pay for all these promises — labour is going to pay for all these promises. there are lots and lots of challenges — promises. there are lots and lots of challenges in our country, in our economy, — challenges in our country, in our economy, that need dealing with, but to pretend _ economy, that need dealing with, but to pretend that somehow labour can fix all— to pretend that somehow labour can fix all the _ to pretend that somehow labour can fix all the problems without spending more money, i'm afraid is simply— spending more money, i'm afraid is simply disingenuous. your party are saying _ simply disingenuous. your party are saying the _ simply disingenuous. your party are saying the opposite, you are promising to get rid of national insurance — promising to get rid of national insurance at some point in the future — insurance at some point in the future which will cost billions and billions _ future which will cost billions and billions and billions. does _ billions and billions. does bridget phillipson really think the government is not using all the tools— the government is not using all the tools and _ the government is not using all the tools and agencies available to it tools and agencies available to it to treat — tools and agencies available to it to treat the illegal immigration problem — to treat the illegal immigration problem is a national security issue? — problem is a national security issue? it's— problem is a national security issue? it's probably the number—one issue _ issue? it's probably the number—one issue in— issue? it's probably the number—one issue in the — issue? it's probably the number—one issue in the government's focus. of course _ issue in the government's focus. of course it's— issue in the government's focus. of course it's using all the resources available — course it's using all the resources available it'sjust that many course it's using all the resources available it's just that many of those — available it's just that many of those resources will be the kind of thing _ those resources will be the kind of thing governments can't talk about openly— thing governments can't talk about openly but the idea that labour will come _ openly but the idea that labour will come in _ openly but the idea that labour will come in and flick a couple of switches _ come in and flick a couple of switches and everything will be fine is incredible. the concern i have is if the _ is incredible. the concern i have is if the polls— is incredible. the concern i have is if the polls are right and we do get a labour— if the polls are right and we do get a labour government, we have to have a labour government, we have to have a strong opposition to hold them to account— a strong opposition to hold them to account for— a strong opposition to hold them to account for all the promises that they are — account for all the promises that they are making and to make sure that they— they are making and to make sure that they don't simply lurch to the left and _ that they don't simply lurch to the left and start taxing and borrowing in a way _ left and start taxing and borrowing in a way that will drive our entrepreneurs and investors away and on to mike _ entrepreneurs and investors away and on to mike -- — entrepreneurs and investors away and on to mike —— and undermined the wealth— on to mike —— and undermined the wealth creation agenda that's our lon- wealth creation agenda that's our long term — wealth creation agenda that's our long term solution. do wealth creation agenda that's our long term solution.— wealth creation agenda that's our long term solution. do you think the rwanda policy _ long term solution. do you think the rwanda policy is _ long term solution. do you think the rwanda policy is crap? _ long term solution. do you think the rwanda policy is crap? we _ long term solution. do you think the rwanda policy is crap? we need - long term solution. do you think the rwanda policy is crap? we need a i rwanda policy is crap? we need a deterrence _ rwanda policy is crap? we need a deterrence policy, _ rwanda policy is crap? we need a deterrence policy, the _ rwanda policy is crap? we need a deterrence policy, the only - rwanda policy is crap? we need a deterrence policy, the only way i rwanda policy is crap? we need a i deterrence policy, the only way this will work— deterrence policy, the only way this will work is — deterrence policy, the only way this will work is through deep rooted collaboration with our european neighbours. some of them are thinking — neighbours. some of them are thinking about offshore processing as well, _ thinking about offshore processing as well, it's got to be done collaboratively.— as well, it's got to be done collaboratively. as well, it's got to be done collaborativel . , , ., , ., collaboratively. many people would sa if we collaboratively. many people would say if we were _ collaboratively. many people would say if we were still _ collaboratively. many people would say if we were still in _ collaboratively. many people would say if we were still in the _ collaboratively. many people would say if we were still in the eu, - collaboratively. many people would say if we were still in the eu, that i say if we were still in the eu, that would be easier sigh i would say the same as what you were a remainer. susanna, what did you think of what you heard? susanna, what did you think of what ou heard? ., , ., . susanna, what did you think of what ou heard? .,, ., . . you heard? people who have children in our schools — you heard? people who have children in our schools at _ you heard? people who have children in our schools at the _ you heard? people who have children in our schools at the moment - you heard? people who have children in our schools at the moment want i you heard? people who have childrenj in our schools at the moment want to hear a _ in our schools at the moment want to hear a far— in our schools at the moment want to hear a far more — in our schools at the moment want to hear a far more ambitious— in our schools at the moment want to hear a far more ambitious plan- in our schools at the moment want to hear a far more ambitious plan for. hear a far more ambitious plan for what _ hear a far more ambitious plan for what we _ hear a far more ambitious plan for what we are — hear a far more ambitious plan for what we are going _ hear a far more ambitious plan for what we are going to _ hear a far more ambitious plan for what we are going to do— hear a far more ambitious plan for what we are going to do about. what we are going to do about education _ what we are going to do about education. covid _ what we are going to do about education. covid absolutely. education. covid absolutely decimated _ education. covid absolutely decimated education- education. covid absolutely decimated education for. education. covid absolutely- decimated education for many, many people _ decimated education for many, many people. we've — decimated education for many, many people. we've seen— decimated education for many, many people. we've seen huge _ decimated education for many, many people. we've seen huge numbers i decimated education for many, manyj people. we've seen huge numbers of teachers _ people. we've seen huge numbers of teachers leaving _ people. we've seen huge numbers of teachers leaving the _ people. we've seen huge numbers of teachers leaving the state _ people. we've seen huge numbers of teachers leaving the state system. i teachers leaving the state system. we've _ teachers leaving the state system. we've seen — teachers leaving the state system. we've seen a — teachers leaving the state system. we've seen a massive _ teachers leaving the state system. we've seen a massive increase - teachers leaving the state system. we've seen a massive increase in. we've seen a massive increase in vacancies— we've seen a massive increase in vacancies and _ we've seen a massive increase in vacancies and for— we've seen a massive increase in vacancies and for instance - we've seen a massive increase in vacancies and for instance in - we've seen a massive increase in. vacancies and for instance in some specialisms— vacancies and for instance in some specialisms you _ vacancies and for instance in some specialisms you can't _ vacancies and for instance in some specialisms you can't get - vacancies and for instance in some specialisms you can't get a - vacancies and for instance in somej specialisms you can't get a physics teacher— specialisms you can't get a physics teacher for— specialisms you can't get a physics teacher for love _ specialisms you can't get a physics teacher for love nor— specialisms you can't get a physics teacher for love nor money - specialisms you can't get a physics teacher for love nor money and - specialisms you can't get a physics i teacher for love nor money and many teachers _ teacher for love nor money and many teachers are — teacher for love nor money and many teachers are teaching _ teacher for love nor money and many teachers are teaching outside - teacher for love nor money and many teachers are teaching outside of - teachers are teaching outside of their— teachers are teaching outside of their specialisms. _ teachers are teaching outside of their specialisms. i— teachers are teaching outside of their specialisms. i think- teachers are teaching outside of their specialisms. i think a - teachers are teaching outside of their specialisms. i think a lot. teachers are teaching outside of| their specialisms. i think a lot of people _ their specialisms. i think a lot of people who _ their specialisms. i think a lot of people who might— their specialisms. i think a lot of people who might be _ their specialisms. i think a lot of people who might be minded . their specialisms. i think a lot of people who might be minded to| their specialisms. i think a lot of- people who might be minded to vote labour— people who might be minded to vote labour would — people who might be minded to vote labour would say— people who might be minded to vote labour would say we _ people who might be minded to vote labour would say we need _ people who might be minded to vote labour would say we need more - people who might be minded to vote i labour would say we need more money pumped _ labour would say we need more money pumped into _ labour would say we need more money pumped into the — labour would say we need more money pumped into the education _ labour would say we need more money pumped into the education system - labour would say we need more money pumped into the education system and | pumped into the education system and all we _ pumped into the education system and all we heard _ pumped into the education system and all we heard so — pumped into the education system and all i've heard so far— pumped into the education system and all i've heard so far is— pumped into the education system and all i've heard so far is that _ pumped into the education system and all i've heard so far is that there - all i've heard so far is that there would _ all i've heard so far is that there would be — all i've heard so far is that there would be vat— all i've heard so far is that there would be vat on _ all i've heard so far is that there would be vat on private - all i've heard so far is that there would be vat on private schooll all i've heard so far is that there - would be vat on private school fees and that _ would be vat on private school fees and that would — would be vat on private school fees and that would pay— would be vat on private school fees and that would pay for— would be vat on private school fees and that would pay for 6500 - would be vat on private school fees and that would pay for 6500 more i and that would pay for 6500 more teachers — and that would pay for 6500 more teachers. that's _ and that would pay for 6500 more teachers. that's not _ and that would pay for 6500 more teachers. that's not enough - and that would pay for 6500 more teachers. that's not enough to - and that would pay for 6500 more teachers. that's not enough to go| teachers. that's not enough to go around _ teachers. that's not enough to go around the — teachers. that's not enough to go around the number— teachers. that's not enough to go around the number of— teachers. that's not enough to go around the number of schools - teachers. that's not enough to goi around the number of schools who need _ around the number of schools who need more — around the number of schools who need more teachers, _ around the number of schools who need more teachers, so _ around the number of schools who need more teachers, so i - around the number of schools who need more teachers, so i think- around the number of schools whol need more teachers, so i think that again— need more teachers, so i think that again there — need more teachers, so i think that again there is— need more teachers, so i think that again there is an— need more teachers, so i think that again there is an issue _ need more teachers, so i think that again there is an issue of _ again there is an issue of transparency— again there is an issue of transparency and - again there is an issue of| transparency and honesty again there is an issue of - transparency and honesty about again there is an issue of _ transparency and honesty about how are we _ transparency and honesty about how are we going — transparency and honesty about how are we going to— transparency and honesty about how are we going to pay— transparency and honesty about how are we going to pay for— transparency and honesty about how are we going to pay for what - transparency and honesty about how are we going to pay for what needs i are we going to pay for what needs to be _ are we going to pay for what needs to be done — are we going to pay for what needs to be done to — are we going to pay for what needs to be done to improve _ are we going to pay for what needs to be done to improve our- are we going to pay for what needsl to be done to improve our schools? we've _ to be done to improve our schools? we've got _ to be done to improve our schools? we've got a — to be done to improve our schools? we've got a massive _ to be done to improve our schools? we've got a massive increase - to be done to improve our schools? we've got a massive increase in- we've got a massive increase in mental— we've got a massive increase in mental health— we've got a massive increase in mental health issues _ we've got a massive increase in mental health issues in- we've got a massive increase in| mental health issues in schools, we've got a massive increase in- mental health issues in schools, we need _ mental health issues in schools, we need more — mental health issues in schools, we need more support— mental health issues in schools, we need more support for— mental health issues in schools, we need more support for those - need more support for those students _ need more support for those students. we _ need more support for those students. we need - need more support for those students. we need more - need more support for those - students. we need more support for those _ students. we need more support for those who— students. we need more support for those who want _ students. we need more support for those who want to _ students. we need more support for those who want to train _ students. we need more support for those who want to train to _ students. we need more support for those who want to train to be - those who want to train to be teachers _ those who want to train to be teachers a _ those who want to train to be teachers. a lot _ those who want to train to be teachers. a lot of— those who want to train to be teachers. a lot of people - those who want to train to be i teachers. a lot of people would those who want to train to be - teachers. a lot of people would like to become — teachers. a lot of people would like to become teachers, _ teachers. a lot of people would like to become teachers, they— teachers. a lot of people would like to become teachers, they simply i to become teachers, they simply can't _ to become teachers, they simply can't afford — to become teachers, they simply can't afford to _ to become teachers, they simply can't afford to do _ to become teachers, they simply can't afford to do so. _ to become teachers, they simply can't afford to do so. so - to become teachers, they simply can't afford to do so. so where i to become teachers, they simplyj can't afford to do so. so where is the money— can't afford to do so. so where is the money going _ can't afford to do so. so where is the money going to _ can't afford to do so. so where is the money going to come - can't afford to do so. so where is the money going to come from i can't afford to do so. so where is - the money going to come from because i'm the money going to come from because i'm not— the money going to come from because i'm not sure _ the money going to come from because i'm not sure the — the money going to come from because i'm not sure the vat— the money going to come from because i'm not sure the vat on _ the money going to come from because i'm not sure the vat on private - i'm not sure the vat on private school — i'm not sure the vat on private school fees _ i'm not sure the vat on private school fees is _ i'm not sure the vat on private school fees is going _ i'm not sure the vat on private school fees is going to - i'm not sure the vat on private school fees is going to touch i i'm not sure the vat on private i school fees is going to touch the sides _ school fees is going to touch the sides. , ., ~ school fees is going to touch the sides. , . ,, ., . sides. lets talk more about the cash in a second — sides. lets talk more about the cash in a second but _ sides. lets talk more about the cash in a second but it's _ sides. lets talk more about the cash in a second but it's been _ sides. lets talk more about the cash in a second but it's been a _ sides. lets talk more about the cash in a second but it's been a busy - in a second but it's been a busy week so i want to remind people what's been going on. who won the week? it was the last thing the prime minister needed to hear this week — that the gambling commission is looking into alleged betting by four people on the the date of the election. if anyone is found to have broken the rules, they should not only face the full consequences of the law but i will ensure that they are booted out of the conservative party too. applause. butjk rowling's dished it out to keir starmer for his answer on gender to a tough question time audience in york this week, and his answer on whether he really thoughtjeremy corbyn would be a great prime minister was awkward too. when you said jeremy corbyn would make a good prime minister, did you mean it? look, he would be a better prime minister... laughter. well, look what we got — borisjohnson. nigel farage has been accused of playing into putin's hands for claims in his panorama interview that the west "provoked" russia's invasion of ukraine. it was obvious to me that the ever eastward expansion of nato's and the european union was giving this man a reason, to his russian people, to say "they're coming for us again," and to go to war. and more revelations this weekend about reform candidates — with a range of remarks offensive to women found on social media feeds. lets go back to that question of tax and spend and philip hammond said keir starmer as being evasive, people would say labour has to put up people would say labour has to put up tax, susanna is saying it's not possible without more money. is labour hiding the real agenda is yellow no, it's not an option for us in this country to tax our way to greater spending.— in this country to tax our way to greater spending. whether it be on education or— greater spending. whether it be on education or the _ greater spending. whether it be on education or the health _ greater spending. whether it be on education or the health service - greater spending. whether it be on education or the health service or i education or the health service or whatever. we have to grow the economy. we have to reverse this decline which has kicked in in britain frankly since the brexit referendum. we took a structural step down in our trade, a structural step—down investment, structural step—down investment, structural step down in international investor confidence in our economy. now, we can't reverse brexit, laura, that's not open to us, but we can decide whether we are going to sink under the weight of brexit or whether we are going to swim, yes, against the tide, in order to overcome or at least offset many of its disadvantages. and i am a swimmer, not a thinker in this. we've got to look at this situation as they trigger, as a catalyst for turning around our economy and we've got to look at two things in my view. we've got to look at, you mentioned universities, we've got to look to our great research intensive universities where our first class science and technology pacing —— base exists and we've got to see how we can mobilise and galvanise that base and commercialise it out of the base and commercialise it out of the base and commercialise it out of the base and secondly we've got a massive pensions and savings sector in this country. we've got to make sure that that money, that liquidity, is more efficiently put into industry, put into business, rather than going overseas and just buying government bonds. rather than going overseas and 'ust buying government bonds.�* buying government bonds. briefly, philip hammond, _ buying government bonds. briefly, philip hammond, every _ buying government bonds. briefly, philip hammond, every politician i buying government bonds. briefly, i philip hammond, every politician who sits in the studio says they want to grow the economy.— grow the economy. exactly at the idea that labour _ grow the economy. exactly at the idea that labour has _ grow the economy. exactly at the idea that labour has some - grow the economy. exactly at the idea that labour has some silver| idea that labour has some silver bullet— idea that labour has some silver bullet to — idea that labour has some silver bullet to fix the economy is nonsense. the challenges are deep rooted _ nonsense. the challenges are deep rooted. they go back to the global financial— rooted. they go back to the global financial crisis. what people need to hear— financial crisis. what people need to hear from the labour party is how it is going _ to hear from the labour party is how it is going to— to hear from the labour party is how it is going to deliver this additional economic growth and what ithink— additional economic growth and what i think we _ additional economic growth and what i think we all need to be reassured about— i think we all need to be reassured about is— i think we all need to be reassured about is that as a labour government finds in— about is that as a labour government finds in its— about is that as a labour government finds in its second or third year that— finds in its second or third year that it — finds in its second or third year that it isn't _ finds in its second or third year that it isn't delivering that magic economic— that it isn't delivering that magic economic growth it will get dragged inexorably to the left by the forces of the _ inexorably to the left by the forces of the left — inexorably to the left by the forces of the left within the labour party, within— of the left within the labour party, within its— of the left within the labour party, within its trade union support base, and we _ within its trade union support base, and we need a strong opposition in parliament— and we need a strong opposition in parliament to make sure that we hold this labour— parliament to make sure that we hold this labour government, if that's what _ this labour government, if that's what we — this labour government, if that's what we get, to account.- what we get, to account. when politicians _ what we get, to account. when politicians talk _ what we get, to account. when politicians talk about _ what we get, to account. when politicians talk about wanting i politicians talk about wanting growth, do viewers believe them? iloathe growth, do viewers believe them? who doesnt growth, do viewers believe them? who doesn't want — growth, do viewers believe them? who doesn't want growth? we need growth. it's doesn't want growth? we need growth. it's hugely— doesn't want growth? we need growth. it's hugely important. _ doesn't want growth? we need growth. it's hugely important. i— doesn't want growth? we need growth. it's hugely important. i think— doesn't want growth? we need growth. it's hugely important. i think part - it's hugely important. i think part of the _ it's hugely important. i think part of the driver— it's hugely important. i think part of the driver of _ it's hugely important. i think part of the driver of growth _ it's hugely important. i think part of the driver of growth is - it's hugely important. i think part of the driver of growth is a - it's hugely important. i think part of the driver of growth is a reallyl of the driver of growth is a really strong _ of the driver of growth is a really strong education _ of the driver of growth is a really strong education system. - of the driver of growth is a really strong education system. i'd - of the driver of growth is a really i strong education system. i'd really like more — strong education system. i'd really like more investment— strong education system. i'd really like more investment in— strong education system. i'd really like more investment in the - like more investment in the education _ like more investment in the education system _ like more investment in the education system and - like more investment in the education system and that. like more investment in the - education system and that used to be the labour— education system and that used to be the labour party— education system and that used to be the labour party said _ education system and that used to be the labour party said that _ education system and that used to be the labour party said that those - the labour party said that those with the — the labour party said that those with the broadest _ the labour party said that those with the broadest shoulders - the labour party said that those i with the broadest shoulders should be able _ with the broadest shoulders should be able to— with the broadest shoulders should be able to pay— with the broadest shoulders should be able to pay a _ with the broadest shoulders should be able to pay a little _ with the broadest shoulders should be able to pay a little bit _ with the broadest shoulders should be able to pay a little bit more - with the broadest shoulders should be able to pay a little bit more and| be able to pay a little bit more and we are _ be able to pay a little bit more and we are definitely— be able to pay a little bit more and we are definitely not _ be able to pay a little bit more and we are definitely not hearing - we are definitely not hearing that message — we are definitely not hearing that message right _ we are definitely not hearing that message right now— we are definitely not hearing that message right now from - we are definitely not hearing that message right now from the - we are definitely not hearing that i message right now from the labour party— message right now from the labour party but— message right now from the labour party but i— message right now from the labour party but i 0k. _ message right now from the labour party but i 0k, we'll— message right now from the labour party but i 0k, we'll be _ message right now from the labour party but i 0k, we'll be back- message right now from the labour party but i 0k, we'll be back with. party but i 0k, we'll be back with you three — party but i 0k, we'll be back with you three later— party but i 0k, we'll be back with you three later in— party but i 0k, we'll be back with you three later in the _ party but i 0k, we'll be back withi you three later in the programme. time _ you three later in the programme. time goes — you three later in the programme. time goes so _ you three later in the programme. time goes so quickly— you three later in the programme. time goes so quickly on _ you three later in the programme. time goes so quickly on sunday. time goes so quickly on sunday mornings. now, let's look at some numbers. neither parties really believe the polls, which, for better or worse, have become part of the campaign themselves. but there has been wild variation in them, so, what do we need? a calm assessment of what is really going on — here isjohn curtice with his 60 seconds on sunday. neither the conservatives nor labour are having a fruitful campaign. the latest polls put both of them down four points compared with the outset. but that means the conservatives, on 20%, are still 20 points behind labour. meanwhile, nigel farage's reform uk party is nowjust two points behind the tories. but the worst news for the conservatives has come from five mega polls that estimated the likely outcome in seats. their tally for the tories ranged widely from 53 to 155 — but even 155 would be the party's worst result ever. and, crucially, all these mega polls said conservative support is falling most heavily in constituencies the party is defending, compounding its losses. conservative support has fallen by a couple of points in scotland, too. but this is of little comfort to the snp, who on 32%, trail labour by four points. well, let's get straight on with that. john says it's looking grisly for the snp and their current tally of 43 of the 59 scottish seats in the house of commons. the arrival of experienced minister john swinney as first minister, after a torrid time, was meant to be the start of a calmer era. but six weeks into the job, he's fighting a general election. mr swinneyjoins us now. good morning. i just want to start by asking about a developing story today. it's against the rules for taxpayers' cash to be used in campaigning, but there have been allegations over the last week that snp staffers have been using postage stamps paid for with public money for campaign purposes. and the mail on sunday has a story today, that someone in your office was involved in discussions about the use of stamps allegedly paid for by the public purse. what do you say to that? well, i've obviously discussed _ what do you say to that? well, i've obviously discussed this _ what do you say to that? well, i've obviously discussed this with - what do you say to that? well, i've obviously discussed this with my i obviously discussed this with my staff and i have been assured that no parliamentary stamps that have been provided by parliament have been provided by parliament have been used to support election purposes and obviously the parliament has said they are looking into this matter and obviously will provide parliament with any assistance that they require as they undertake those inquiries was white one whatsapp message reported this morning sent to an snp group chat, your assistant wrote, the stamp fairy is very useful when it comes to campaigns. who is the stamp fairy? we campaign on a regular basis and engage in the public with a range of different issues. these are humorous remarks made in a whatsapp channel. what is important is the reassurance that i've had that parliamentary stamps have not been used for election purposes. it stamps have not been used for election purposes.— stamps have not been used for election purposes. it might sound like a small— election purposes. it might sound like a small issue, _ election purposes. it might sound like a small issue, that _ election purposes. it might sound like a small issue, that is - election purposes. it might sound like a small issue, that is a - like a small issue, that is a humorous message, but there is a hugely important principle here about public money being used for campaigning purposes by political parties. are you completely sure that your party has not been using any public money to fund your election campaign? i’m any public money to fund your election campaign? i'm confident of that. we election campaign? i'm confident of that- we have _ election campaign? i'm confident of that. we have obviously _ election campaign? i'm confident of that. we have obviously been - that. we have obviously been engaging in a fundraising campaign to support the election campaign, it has been supported by the many members we have around about the country. the scottish national party is fortunate that we have the largest membership of any political party in scotland and, indeed, we've got more members than all the other parties combined. those members have been supporting our election campaign and enabling us to have the resources available, generated and raised from within our party membership base, to support us in campaigning. you membership base, to support us in campaigning-— campaigning. you have a lot fewer members than _ campaigning. you have a lot fewer members than you _ campaigning. you have a lot fewer members than you used _ campaigning. you have a lot fewer members than you used to - campaigning. you have a lot fewer members than you used to have, i campaigning. you have a lot fewer i members than you used to have, part of that is because of concerns many voters in scotland also share about standards in the snp. if we just look at the recent past, you have the scandal around alex salmond, the former first minister's