Hardtalk. , ~ a, Espen Barth Eide, welcome you i hardtalk why hardtalk. Thank you, sarah. Why has norway hardtalk. Thank you, sarah. Why has norway decided hardtalk. Thank you, sarah. Why has norway decided to hardtalk. Thank you, sarah. Why has norway decided to recognise l has norway decided to recognise the Palestinian State now . Well, simply put because we think is the right thing to do and we also think its the right time to do it. We always wanted to strive towards a 2 State Solution with the Palestinian State side by side with israel. But until now we used to think that our bilateral recognition would have to come at the end of a process but we changed our view looking at the deplorable situation on the ground, not only everything that has happened over the last seven months, but over the last years, when no Real Progress to place a now we join all the countries in saying we want to lift the status of the palestinians to have a better balance in the final negotiations with israel will have to happen at some point. So this is a strong support for a 2 State Solution, a strong support for the moderate forces, and a strong reminder that there are still people who believe that talking is better than killing and that a 2 State Solution can be achieved on the basis of the mission of Mutual Recognition. Basis of the mission of Mutual Recognition recognition. Israels Foreign Minister 2 recognition. Israels Foreign Minister 2 history recognition. Israels Foreign Minister 2 history Will Minister Z history will remember spain, norway, and ireland decided toward a gold medal to the hamas murderers and rapists, who raped teenage girls and burnt babies. How do you respond to that . Id you respond to that . Id totally and you respond to that . I� c totally and vehemently disagree with his reading of this. We are trying to do the exact opposite. We reacted very strongly to the horrible acts of hamas on 7 october and we have deplored that in this terrible situation that have been speaking. We think the whole battle in the middle east, the violence, the terror in israel, the extreme response from israeli gaza and the sadler violence in the west bank all combined just reminds us that we have to get back to the tractor with a 2 State Solution. So this is a handshake to the moderate forces, not to hamas or the extremist, exactly the opposite. And we do this not only as bilateral recognition, but also as support to what is known as the Arab Peace Initiative, which tries to build a regional context around progress towards a Palestinian State. ,, � state. Crosstalk. He state. Crosstalk. He says state. Crosstalk. He says about state. Crosstalk. He says about peace | state. Crosstalk. He says about peace but you know hamas has welcomed this move. They say these are successive recognitions of this brave resistance and the steadfastness of the Palestinian People. Their Political Bureau member has said that. Which is why israel said that. Which is why israel said it rewards terrorism. We know and said it rewards terrorism. We know and you said it rewards terrorism. Know and you know and israel knows that this was also very early welcomed by the palestine authorities, by the plo, by that are, by all of those who believe in a Palestinian State living together with israel. These are the people we support. We also saw that there was some statements from hamas but this is actually an anti hamas move, because we disagree with macarons programme of destroying israel. We believe that those currently in charge of the state of palestine who believe the 2 State Solution is possible and those of the people we support and they are very happy they came out with rejoicing this decision. Crosstalk. You say this is about supporting other palestinians, but norway hasnt prescribed hamas as a terror group, as the United Kingdom and United States have done, has it . We have said states have done, has it . We have said that states have done, has it . Have said that what happened on 7 october is terror. It is when a Group Carries out an act of terror it is terrorism, absolutely. But norway does not have a separate list because norway believes that speaking to people you very strongly disagree with is sometimes important. Thats why we try to be helpful to release hostages, for instance, and in many cases we have been communicating messages between people who dont speak to each other directly. This is actually very little to do with this because our firm support over decades has been to the palestine authorities that came out of the plos promise, which they have kept, by the way, to lay down arms, to the violence, and work with the peaceful settlement with israel. Crosstalk. You talk about communicating. You talk about communicating. You are in communication with Espen Barth Eide . 50. You are in communication with Espen Barth Eide . Espen barth eide . So, we communicate Espen Barth Eide . So, we communicate between Espen Barth Eide . So, we communicate between several groups in the middle east, that is one of. Groups in the middle east, that is one of is one of. Crosstalk. Including is one of. Crosstalk. Including hamas . Is one of. Crosstalk. I Including Hamas . Including hamas, Including Hamas . Including hamas. Not Including Hamas . Including hamas, not on Including Hamas . Including hamas, not on a Including Hamas . Including hamas, not on a political. Hamas, not on a political level. It is helpfulfor those countries who cannot do it themselves but still want messages to be presented. There are many countries of the world, not in mm, and appreciate some people have these conversations. If. Appreciate some people have these conversations. These conversations. If, as a result of these conversations. If, as a result of the these conversations. If, as a result of the palestinian result of the Palestinian State, if hamas were elected, as they have been in the past, norway would recognise that . Well, listen, as was trying say earlier, there is now an Arab Peace Initiative which spells out several aspects of what is needed to end up with a peaceful solution, recognition of palestine is one of them, normalisation between israel and arab states, Security Guarantees for israel, Demobilisation Of Hamas and all the militant groups as part of that. And this is presented by countries who detest hamas, who really are worried about iranian interests in the region, who want to come back to a situation where you can have normal relations between moderate arab states and israel. So this is clearly a part of a process which is very much anti hamas. In my experience in the world is that many countries who have seen valence when eventually political settlements are found, people who used to be labelled as terrorists and they are re identifying later as politicians, cannot preclude that will happen here, just as in northern ireland, for instance, or in spain but it is an absolute prerequisite that nonstate armed groups are mobilising. Mobilising. One of the difficulties mobilising. One of the difficulties is, mobilising. One of the difficulties is, and mobilising. One of the difficulties is, and i. Mobilising. One of the difficulties is, and i imagine you will have known that this would be israels reaction, that recognising a Palestinian State, they say, will lead to more terrorism and more instability in the region and jeopardise any prospects for peace. Do you recognise that . So i am aware and i was aware that israel would not like this. We are in frequent contact with israel. We informed them beforehand. We wanted them to know, of course, because we want to be transparent, norway is a friend of israel, but we also openly disagree on this news, because this is really government of Benjamin Netanyahu, the most right wing Israeli Government ever, have not really lifted the finger to move towards a peaceful settlement when they have either allowed or created more illegal settlements with their contribution between their contribution between the conditioning for palestinians. So we are certain that what we are doing is coming our view, the right thing to do. Not only for palestine and also for the interests of the israeli people interests of the israeli people in the long run, because i believe, my israeli friends, when they tell me they want to remain a jewish state and a Democratic State and, to be frank, its very difficult to be both if you dont also sell the palestinian issue. fits be both if you dont also sell the palestinian issue. The palestinian issue. As far as israel the palestinian issue. As far as israel is the palestinian issue. As far as israel is concerned, the palestinian issue. As far as israel is concerned, are l the palestinian issue. As far i as israel is concerned, are you suggesting that this is also about to put pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu on the governments for the government to change . Governments for the government to chance . ~. , governments for the government to change . To change . Well, i have noticed is clearly in to change . Well, i have noticed is clearly in the to change . Well, i have noticed is clearly in the public to change . Well, i have noticed is clearly in the Public Domain l is clearly in the Public Domain that there are increasing and deep divisions even in the netanyahu war cabinet were some ministers have been saying that continuing a war without a clear idea what will happen after a political outcome is very problematic. And i agree with them. And they think that speaking, if they may also speaking, if they may also speak as a former defence minister, along with wiebes Foreign Minister, the key rule of the use of Military Forces that there always be a political purpose. Just destroying things doesnt take you anywhere. You need to have a list outcome and that seems to be lacking in the current strategy because just Exterminating Hamas and believing the terrorists will never come back will simply not work. I think most Military Experts will agree with that. So you also think about what you do next and this is what we are trying to contribute to, together with a number of other european estates and i am, by the way, that other european states will follow this example. States will follow this example states will follow this example. States will follow this examle. �. , example. Do you want Benamin Netanyahu i example. Do you want Benamin Netanyahu out i example. Do you want Benamin Netanyahu out of i example. Do you want Benamin Netanyahu out of Israels Netanyahu out of israels government . Br; Netanyahu Out of israels government . Netanyahu out of israels government . Netanyahu out of israels rovernment . J. , , government . By all means this is u to government . By all means this is up to the government . By all means this is up to the Israeli Government . By all means this is up to the israeli people government . By all means this is up to the israeli people to i is up to the israeli people to decide. You know, a campaign for my party and they allow other people to choose their leaders. But they do recognise that the current government is probably the least 2 state Solution Family we have seen in israel over the last three decades and they can say that because we have been working with all of them since the oslo accords with Yitzhak Rabin and shimon paris from 1993, there is little left of that in the Current Situation in israel. Having said that. They want to see very clearly that they have a deep empathy with the psychological state and minds of many israelis after the horrible attacks that happened on 7 october. They understand that that has brought many people will into survival mode. Having the same is happening now on the gaza strip where people are fleeing for their lives from starvation and the terrible situation. I think at this Point Friends Of Israel also friends of palestine need to try to think clearly when dax is not necessarily happening on the ground but thatis happening on the ground but that is what were trying to do in this conflict. In this conflict. Crosstalk. You will know in this conflict. Crosstalk. You will know your in this conflict. Crosstalk. You will know your actions i in this conflict. Crosstalk. I you will know your actions will unite israelis around the Prime Minister. It will be less likely that he will be asked to as a result of this. As a result of this. No, but they did as a result of this. No, but they did not as a result of this. No, but they did not say as a result of this. No, but they did not say he as a result of this. No, but they did not say he should| as a result of this. No, but i they did not say he should be ousted, that is up to the israeli. Ousted, that is up to the israeli. Israeli. Crosstalk. But you israeli. Crosstalk. But you dont israeli. Crosstalk. But you dont think i israeli. Crosstalk. But you dont think it| israeli. Crosstalk. | but you dont think it is possible under this government and if you are after peace how can you argue that what you have done and is likely to lead to peace . To peace . Well, we think strengthening to peace . Well, we think strengthening the to peace . Well, we think. Strengthening the position to peace . Well, we think strengthening the position the palestinians have of the palestine authorities, of the plo and legitimate representatives of the Palestinian People will create a new hope that an alternative to violence is possible. That is good for palestinians, that is good for palestinians, that is good for the israelis. It is my Firm Conviction and we have been working on this for decades from the norway side, working with a lot of other countries, with many friends and contracts in israel and palestine and in the region and this is our view. That view, yes, i know is different from some of the other ministers in the Israeli Government. I respect the difference, but im also open about our disagreements. Why now . Frances disagreements. Why now . Frances foreign disagreements. Why now . Frances Foreign Minister. Disagreements. Why now . I frances Foreign Minister has said france does not consider that the conditions have yet been met for this decision to have a real impact on this process, which is why they havent done what youve done. So, every country has to make its own choice, but we have joined forces here with spain and ireland deny Willow Tree Mungy back in the early 1990s there was a Madrid Conference which was a direct precursor to the late oslo agreement, so the Madrid Oslo Tract was active ben two countries that launched that, known later as oslo, to lift this to a new level, know that many of the countries are considering this and i have to see a have been speaking to the French Foreign minister about this question. They know they are also considering. But we think they should be context around it, that context is the arab police plan with increasing support of a number of european states, which sees recognition of palestine, not a separate thing, because it is absolutely true that on its own it does not solve a single problem, but in the context of regional normalisation and strengthening of the palestine authority, of Demobilisation Of Hamas and all these other elements in the arab peace plan we think that thats a good context in which this is right. Which is why spain, ireland and always they were not doing it today, we doing it next week. Things will look markedly different next week . We will have a clearer different next week . We will have a clearer picture different next week . We will have a clearer picture of different next week . We will have a clearer picture of the| have a clearer picture of the developments of this arab peace plan, and i think that we were gradually rallied more people to say that we have to get out of this horrible mess which leads to fear of terrorism in israel, extreme violence in gaza. It isjust israel, extreme violence in gaza. It is just to continue till today. We know we have tried that and it didnt work. We will find something more constructive. We will find something more constructive. ~ constructive. Some in the white house, constructive. Some in the white house. They constructive. Some in the white house, they have constructive. Some in the white house, they have said constructive. Some in the white | house, they have said President Biden believes a Palestinian State can only be realised through direct negotiation between the parties, not by unilateral decisions. You have so infuriated israel that you have evaluated the government. Have you not . If you pride yourself on being able to talk to the parties involved, they are not going to talk to you now. ~ � , ,. , now. Well, lets see. Israel has said now. Well, lets see. Israel has said that now. Well, lets see. Israel has said that i now. Well, lets see. Israel has said that i will now. Well, lets see. Israel has said that i will real now. Well, lets see. Israel has said that i will real call| has said that i will real call their ambassadorfor consultations. I want to say the ambassador here is someone we appreciate, actually the ambassador in oslo i have met most frequently, and when he comes back, he would be offered a new cup of coffee because we want to retain good relations over time. Want to retain good relations overtime. One want to retain good relations over time. One of the key is to withdraw ambassadors in similar steps, but we will not reciprocate. We want to remain a good friend of israel but we are not making decisions based only on what other people think, we have to do what we think, we have to do what we think is right and i think historically this will be proven right. Nobody knows, but i think that there is no perfect time in the middle east but we have tried the opposite for three decades and its time now to think outside the box. Your ambassador in israel will be called in and israel has made clear that all three ambassadors will be shown a video of what happened on seven october. When your ambassador go along and watch that video . First, i do not really recognise that because the offer to come, we called first because we wanted to set up a meeting to explain our position. It is actually the opposite, but he will be there, absolutely, and we are all extremely aware of the horrors of the seventh of october. It is a gruesome image and we are in total solidarity is really people who suffered the most terrible attack since the holocaust that happened that day. We are in solidarity with them plus the thousands of gazans who have been killed and hundreds of People Killed on the west bank stop we think this is a horrible cycle of violence and babies and family members, and we really want to get out of that violence in the interest of israel and palestine. Interest of israel and palestine. � ,. , palestine. And in terms of, when you palestine. And in terms of, when you talk palestine. And in terms of, when you talk about palestine. And in terms of, | when you talk about getting palestine. And in terms of, when you talk about getting out of violence, do you think that the outside world can impose a two State Solution on israel and the palestinians . When israel was and the palestinians . When israel was set and the palestinians . When israel was set up and the palestinians . When israel was set up with and the palestinians . When israel was set up with very l israel was set up with very strong support from norway, norway was one of the early recognise through israel and it was a very strong statement of support for the idea and Israel AjewishState Support for the idea and israel a jewish state in the middle east, there was a premise for that that there should also be a solution to this palestinian question, that has been unfinished business. At that time in many ways this was proposed and it was correct, we supported it. I do think that there is work that has to be done to complete this long story after all these decades of non solution. We tried and the pure negotiated roots, we still believe in negotiations but lifting the status of moderate palestinians and palestine authorities will be helpful as we move forward. I know that there are more than one view on that but that is our view, one view on that but that is ourview, it one view on that but that is our view, it is a view shared with an increasingly number of states and with 143 other states. This is what the un majority thanks and i think that the majority in this case is. That the maority in this case is. �. ,. ,. , is. And therefore what you would urge is. And therefore what you would urge the is. And therefore what you would urge the united is. And therefore what you would urge the United Kingdom, the United States, other countries to recognise the Palestinian Statehood and, what, by doing so, you think that would make peace more likely . In that would make peace more likel . ,. , , that would make peace more likel . ,. ,. , likely . In principle, yes, and i have noticed likely . In principle, yes, and i have noticed that likely . In principle, yes, and i have noticed that david i have noticed that david cameron, quite early after he took up his tenure, so that the uk is not any longer limited by recognising at the end of the process, which is also what we said. We know that cannot begin now, we respect that, we also understand because we work closely with the United States of america and the Biden Administration that sometimes there are constraints that the rest of us have to respect and they are in the middle of an election campaign, there are divisions over palestine and israel over us policy. I have the deepest respect for that but that cannot be, the rest of us cannot continue. Ii but that cannot be, the rest of us cannot continue. Us cannot continue. If the israeli prime us cannot continue. If the israeli Prime Minister us cannot continue. If the l israeli Prime Minister came us cannot continue. If the israeli Prime Minister came to norway, would you arrest him . Given the potential Arrest Warrant from. Given the potential Arrest Warrant from. Given the potential Arrest Warrant from. This is a very hypothetical warrant from. This is a very hypothetical question warrant from. This is a very| hypothetical question because the International Criminal court has not yet made an Arrest Warrant. What has happened so far is the Chief Prosecutor requested that. So we respect the independence of the board, butjust like the United Kingdom and almost all western countries, every state in the you, all countries besides turkey and the us and most other us allies are members of the International Criminal court, we are obliged to do what the court decides. So that is not a political question, it is a legal certainty. Question, it is a legal certain. , question, it is a legal certain. , certainty. Ultimately, it is not about certainty. Ultimately, it is not about the certainty. Ultimately, it is. Not about the palestinians, it is about the israelis, it is about putting pressure on the israelis because this. The israelis because this. The Israeli Government is not keen on a two State Solution . This is in support on a two State Solution . This is in support of on a two State Solution . This is in support of all on a two State Solution . This is in support of all those on a two State Solution . In 3 is in support of all those that believe that it is possible to have a two State Solution, that a two State Solution requires palestine but is able to live, help provide Security Guarantees were israel and that can be embedded in regional peace. The it is important that people believe in that and it is a clear message to people that the solution to every question is violence. Can you Imaaine Question is violence. Can you imagine a question is violence. Can you imagine a peaceful question is violence. Can you imagine a peaceful solution i imagine a peaceful solution under the current Prime Minister of israel . Well, i have to minister of israel . Well, i have to be minister of israel . Well, i have to be respectful minister of israel . Well, i have to be respectful of i minister of israel . Well, i i have to be respectful of what he says. He has been very clear that he does not want a two State Solution. I remember speaking to him ten years ago when he was in favour of a two State Solution, it is on record where he very clearly says that the only solution here is a two State Solution. He has changed his position and so it does not seem likely that the Current Parliament in israel is going to take the lead on this. But this is also one of the reasons this message is being sent now because israel is therefore the long haul. We will forever support the state of israel and that does not mean that we cannot be in disagreement governments there and here and in the uk, but the states remain and these policies are for the long run. Just briefly, finally, isnt a two State Solution further away thanit two State Solution further away than it has ever been . You asked me than it has ever been . You asked me a than it has ever been . You asked me a year than it has ever been . You asked me a year ago, than it has ever been . Lif7i. Asked me a year ago, frankly, i would say, yes, it is very far away. We were close to giving up away. We were close to giving up on the oslo idea. Today i would say the opposite. I actually think that having most all countries led by the us, europeans, africa, latin america, asia, the whole planet, entire g20 is saying the only solution the only solution is a two State Solution. I work now closely with a number of arab countries who always had that view, but now i think they are working much more systematically to achieve that. Much more systematically to achieve that. , a, achieve that. Espen barth eide, thank ou achieve that. Espen barth eide, thank you for achieve that. Espen barth eide, thank you for coming achieve that. Espen barth eide, thank you for coming on thank you for coming on hardtalk. Hello, there. For most of us, wednesday was a particularly miserable day. Quite wet, in fact, in hertfordshire and warwickshire, we had a months worth of rain in a 24 hour period, ranging from 55 to almost 65mm of rainfall. Throughout the day, the rain gradually drifted its way steadily north and west. Here, it is going to linger for quite some time, so we still have Weather Warnings out. In fact, the met office has an Amber Warning now, with the emphasis on the heavy and persistent rain across parts of north wales and northwest england. We could see, to higher ground, as much as 100mm or more, and that could lead to some localised flooding, so that Weather Warning and will remain in force until lunchtime on thursday. The brighter colours denoting the intensity of the rainfall. Some clearer skies further south, so it could be a misty, murky start, but a relatively mild start to thursday morning. On the whole, quite grey for most of us, and some of the rain still quite persistent, but it will gradually start to ease as we go through the day and, hopefully, the cloud across east anglia and Southeast England should break up to allow for some glimpses of sunshine from time to time. Winds, light to moderate, but the strongest gusts perhaps to the far north and west, where the heaviest bursts are likely to be. Now, we are going to see temperatures peaking at around 18 or 19 degrees, but where the cloud and rain lingers, certainly a disappointing feel. As we go through thursday evening into the early hours of friday morning, gradually that low pressure will drift its way further north and east and start to pull away, but it stays rather cloudy, damp and murky, so a pretty murky start to friday morning, and we will be chasing cloud around on friday. Cloud, thick enough further north for a spot or two of Light Drizzle at time to time. Hopefully some brightness down to the south, but it will be dry here, and top temperatures, once again, likely into the high teens. Into the start of the weekend, this little ridge of High Pressure keeps things quiet on sunday. It is a bank holiday weekend, i know. There is a Weather Front starting to push in from the west, giving us a level of uncertainty, so it is likely the beginning of the three day weekend will be the best, in terms of drier, sunnier weather, and there is the potential for some sharp, possibly thundery showers to develop a little later on. Live from london, this is bbc news. The uk will go to the polls in just over six weeks after the Prime Minister announces there will be a General Election on 4july. A ceremony is being held in birjand ahead of the burial of irans late president , ebrahim raisi, in his home city of mashad. President macron promises to restore peace to New Caledonia following more than a week of violent unrest. Hello. Im mark lobel. Welcome im mark lobel. To the programme. The uk will go to the polls in just over six weeks after the Prime Minister announced there will be a General Election on the fourth ofjuly. On the steps of Downing Street just over 12 hours ago rishi sunak vowed to fight for every vote, while labour leader sir keir starmer said it was time for change. Parliament will be suspended on friday, before being formally shut down next thursday ahead of an official five week election campaign. Heres our Political Editor chris mason. The lectern in place, after a downpour of anticipation. Cameras, reporters, brollies, the downpours coming from the skies, too. At teatime, this. Earlier today, i spoke with his majesty the king to request the dissolution of parliament. The king has granted this request and we will have