Were matter. They were dealt with, they were followed through, i believe, very thoroughly and he will attack by very thoroughly and he will attack try the very thoroughly and he will attack by the experts in business, fujitsu were by the experts in business, fujitsu were involved with it needed to be. I did were involved with it needed to be. I did not were involved with it needed to be. I did not have a regular report on the numbers of these coming through, in the the numbers of these coming through, in the context of the timescale that spans, in the context of the timescale that spans, and in the context of the timescale that spans, and the numbers coming through. Spans, and the numbers coming through. It spans, and the numbers coming through, it may not have seemed to people through, it may not have seemed to people they that many. When you put it together people they that many. When you put it together like this, it paints a different it together like this, it paints a different issue and when we should have treeh different issue and when we should have been looking at. This goes back to my have been looking at. This goes back to my earlier point about institution versus the individual and institution versus the individual Ahd I Institution versus the individual and i get institution versus the individual and i get the right type of data report~ and i get the right type of data re ort. , and i get the right type of data reort. ,. ,. , report. Can we move forward please to 2015. Report. Can we move forward please to 2015 page report. Can we move forward please to 2015. Page two report. Can we move forward please to 2015. Page two at report. Can we move forward please to 2015. Page two at the report. Can we move forward please to 2015. Page two at the foot, to 2015. Page two at the foot, please. An e mailfrom to 2015. Page two at the foot, please. An e mail from you to angela van den boogaard, harry clark, rod ismay and others. In march 2015, it is about eight complaint raised by the Sub Postmaster at the ashton on trent Sub Post Office about scratchcards. You said i would appreciate your help, this complaint simply shouldnt have reached me. It is my understanding that the embassy and chesterfield are supposed to be on the alert for any calls that relate to missing money and especially any that relate to the sparrow themes, of which is clearly one and ensure they are dealt with. Ie, i understood there was an urgent escalation process in place so we avoided unnecessary additional noise or reference to two horizon. As all the investigations have shown problems to be mostly Branch Operational issues rather than the system. What was the basis of your understanding, that there was an urgent escalation process in place at the embassy and or chesterfield . And bsc. At the embassy and or chesterfield . And bsc at the embassy and or chesterfield . And bsc. , and bsc. There were some changes that have been and bsc. There were some changes that have been put and bsc. There were some changes that have been put in and bsc. There were some changes that have been put in place, and bsc. There were some changes that have been put in place, i that have been put in place, i understood, in the mbsc, to deal with issues in training and support of Sub Postmasters. When i remembered was the number of times a Sub Postmaster culture to the mbsc that was Sub Postmaster culture to the mbsc that was logged and flagged, pulled that was logged and flagged, pulled through. There was a separate team that pulled through. There was a separate team that would contact Sub Postmasters proactively to see if they Sub Postmasters proactively to see if they could help them. This is falling if they could help them. This is falling out of the work that was done falling out of the work that was done On Falling Out of the work that was done on horizon. And that is what i was flagging here. I am done on horizon. And that is what i was flagging here. Iam not done on horizon. And that is what i was flagging here. I am not very happy was flagging here. I am not very happy with my wording about avoiding any unnecessary references to horizon any unnecessary references to horizon. ,. ,. , any unnecessary references to horizon. ,. ,. , i, horizon. You are not the only person who doesnt horizon. You are not the only person who doesnt like horizon. You are not the only person who doesnt like you horizon. You are not the only person who doesnt like you use horizon. You are not the only person who doesnt like you use of horizon. You are not the only person who doesnt like you use of the horizon. You are not the only person who doesnt like you use of the word j who doesnt like you use of the word noise. Is that how it was seen at the top end of the post office, when sub masters complaint, it is just noise . Submasters complaint, it is ust noise . ,. ,. , noise . No, it is not a good word, but ou noise . No, it is not a good word, but you have noise . No, it is not a good word, but you have seen noise . No, it is not a good word, but you have seen how noise . No, it is not a good word, but you have seen how i noise . No, it is not a good word, l but you have seen howl responded but you have seen how i responded personally but you have seen how i responded personally to individual matters. It is a word personally to individual matters. It is a word i personally to individual matters. It is a word i regret using. Why personally to individual matters. It is a word i regret using. Personally to individual matters. It is a word i regret using. Why was it use . Does is a word i regret using. Why was it use . Does it is a word i regret using. Why was it use . Does it in is a word i regret using. Why was it use . Does it in fact is a word i regret using. Why was it use . Does it in fact reflect is a word i regret using. Why was it use . Does it in fact reflect the use . Does it in fact reflect the workings of the mind of those at the top end of the post office, thats a Postmaster Complaints about horizon are in Factjust Noise . I Postmaster Complaints about horizon are in Factjust Noise . Are in fact ust noise . I think it reflects are in fact ust noise . I think it reflects a are in Factjust Noise . I think it reflects a wrong are in Factjust Noise . I think it| reflects a wrong understanding, are in Factjust Noise . I think it reflects a wrong understanding, yes, that people believe that horizon worked that people believe that horizon worked and this is me deploying a word worked and this is me deploying a word that worked and this is me deploying a word that was unwise. It did not in any way word that was unwise. It did not in any way mean that i personally did not take any way mean that i personally did not take issues seriously when they ot not take issues seriously when they got to not take issues seriously when they got to me not take issues seriously when they got to me i not take issues seriously when they got to me. I regret this year, but there got to me. I regret this year, but there was got to me. I regret this year, but there was an understanding that the system there was an understanding that the system worked, and they word shouldnt system worked, and they word shouldnt have been used by me and other shouldnt have been used by me and other people. Can shouldnt have been used by me and other people other people. Can we turn forwards, lease, . Look at the bottom of page one please. The mp for ashfield sent you an e mail of the 28th of august 2015, saying i have been contacted by the above constituent in eastwood nottinghamshire, and if we go to the other page please, you will see that the mp attached this to text here, and if you just scan the first couple of paragraphs, or the first five or six lines. And then about ten lines in, it says the entire losses had to be made good which they were. My initial questions are 200712, the post they were. My initial questions are 2007 12, the post Office Management knew of many offices in a similar position. So was this a priori scratch at prearranged standard riposte as most Sub Postmasters were told this . To isolate us . This is a reference to the six line, we were told as the only office in the country experiencing such problems. He is asking, or his mp is asking the ,. ,. , he is asking, or his mp is asking the ,. ,. ,. The question, was there a line delo ed the question, was there a line deployed that the question, was there a line deployed that you the question, was there a line deployed that you were the question, was there a line deployed that you were the i the question, was there a line l deployed that you were the only office in the country experiencing such problems . Was that a standardised riposte, was this to isolate us . Do you know whether any investigation was carried out as to whether that was true or not . That a standard line was deployed by the post office . I standard line was deployed by the post office . Post office . I dont know any investigation post office . I dont know any investigation was post office . I dont know any investigation was carried post office . I dont know any| investigation was carried out. Post office . I dont know any l investigation was carried out. I post office . I dont know any investigation was carried out. I had never investigation was carried out. I had never heard investigation was carried out. I had never heard it as a standard line. Ever never heard it as a standard line. Ever i never heard it as a standard line. Ever. I cannot imagine why it. Well, ever. I cannot imagine why it. Well, i ever. I cannot imagine why it. Well, i can ever. I cannot imagine why it. Well, i can imagine, but i didnt come well, i can imagine, but i didnt come across it, when a colleague in the call come across it, when a colleague in The Call Centre may have said that, when The Call Centre may have said that, when they The Call Centre may have said that, when they are dealing with hundreds of complaints, it is possible it seemed of complaints, it is possible it seemed then it was the only one, but i seemed then it was the only one, but i have seemed then it was the only one, but i have no seemed then it was the only one, but i have no recollection or understanding that it was a company line at understanding that it was a company line at all understanding that it was a company line at all. ,. Understanding that it was a company line at all. ,. , line at all. Here, the complaint is about the call line at all. Here, the complaint is about The Call Centre, line at all. Here, the complaint is about The Call Centre, it line at all. Here, the complaint is about The Call Centre, it is line at all. Here, the complaint is about The Call Centre, it is to line at all. Here, the complaint is about The Call Centre, it is to the | about The Call Centre, it is to the area Sales Manager the complete isnt about a call centre. Was there a strategy to your acknowledged scratch acknowledged deployed to divide and conquer Sub Postmasters in this way to say you are the only person who has got this problem, pay up, it is in your contract . Trio. Person who has got this problem, pay up, it is in your contract . Trial up, it is in your contract . No, i never came up, it is in your contract . No, i never came across up, it is in your contract . No, i never came across that up, it is in your contract . No, i never came across that at up, it is in your contract . No, i never came across that at all. | up, it is in your contract . No, i. Never came across that at all. Can we move on. Never came across that at all. Can we move on, these never came across that at all. Can we move on, these two later in 2015. Please. This is mr mackay again. Every start at page three. Mr maccormack. The 14th of october, mr maccormack. The 14th of october, mr maccormack to you. Subject, it had to happen sooner or later. This may be the last to hear from me directly. It is the last chance for you to accept what i have been telling you these last few years is true. I now have clear and unquestionable evidence of an intermittent bug in horizon that can and does cause thousands of pounds of losses to Sub Postmasters. So it goes on. He explains in the balance of his e mail. What the problem is. If we go over the page, i should have dealt with the bottom of page one. Sorry, the bottom of page three. I have three options. A, this e mail is a first option, appeal to yoursense e mail is a first option, appeal to your sense of decency and compassion, to accept that many of the claimants in the gfa are honest and decent citizens whose lives were destroyed by your organisation. B, comical to press and see what happens. Or overthe comical to press and see what happens. Or over the page, await the inevitablejudicial happens. Or over the page, await the inevitable Judicial Review where you will be personally exposed and perhaps leave yourself open to criminal charges. We can stop this farce now. You can wake up and realise the people you rely on to tell you the truth about what is happening dont have the ability to do so. What did you do as a result of this . I do so. What did you do as a result of this . , �. , of this . I dont recall. Genuinely i dont recall of this . I dont recall. Genuinely i dont recall. If of this . I dont recall. Genuinely i dont recall. If you of this . I dont recall. Genuinely i dont recall. If you have of this . I dont recall. Genuinely i dont recall. If you have further. Dont recall. If you have further emails dont recall. If you have further emails i dont recall. If you have further e mails i am happy to be taking to them emails i am happy to be taking to them. Emails i am happy to be taking to them. ,. , emails i am happy to be taking to them. ,. ,. , them. This is quite a direct form of communication. Them. This is quite a direct form of communication. Yes, them. This is quite a direct form of communication. Yes, it them. This is quite a direct form of communication. Yes, it is. Them. This is quite a direct form of communication. Yes, it is. Would i them. This is quite a direct form of. Communication. Yes, it is. Would you take from that communication. Yes, it is. Would you take from that this communication. Yes, it is. Would you take from that this is communication. Yes, it is. Would you take from that this is a communication. Yes, it is. Would you take from that this is a person communication. Yes, it is. Would you take from that this is a person to take from that this is a person to be took take from that this is a person to be took from put to one side . Gr be took from put to one side . or would be took from put to one side . Would you think be took from put to one side . 1 would you think the way he expressed themselves means i should take what he is saying seriously . You themselves means i should take what he is saying seriously . He is saying seriously . You will find an email he is saying seriously . You will find an email from he is saying seriously . You will find an emailfrom me, he is saying seriously . You will find an emailfrom me, i he is saying seriously . You willj find an emailfrom me, i dont he is saying seriously . You will find an emailfrom me, i dont know find an e mail from me, i dont know if it is find an e mail from me, i dont know if it is in find an e mail from me, i dont know if it is in response to this where i say to if it is in response to this where i say to my if it is in response to this where i say to my team, we must take mr mackay say to my team, we must take mr mackay professionally, and i cannot remember mackay professionally, and i cannot remember the other word is used, no matter remember the other word is used, no matter how remember the other word is used, no matter how rude people were, and sometimes it felt like that, because he would sometimes it felt like that, because he would say other things than art necessarily. First of all, in hindsight necessarily. First of all, in hindsight i think he was right, and i hindsight i think he was right, and i regret hindsight i think he was right, and i regret that the match as he was raising i regret that the match as he was raising took too long to address. But i raising took too long to address. But i would always respond to people courteously and i dont know genuinely what happened to this email. Genuinely what happened to this e mail, whether it was picked up by the team, e mail, whether it was picked up by the team, whether i sent it on to somebody. The team, whether i sent it on to somebody, but i would never ignore something somebody, but i would never ignore something. If somebody, but i would never ignore somethina. Somebody, but i would never ignore somethina. ,. , ~ somebody, but i would never ignore somethina. , something. If we look at the foot of. A i e something. If we look at the foot of a~e two. Something. If we look at the foot of page two we something. If we look at the foot of page two we can something. If we look at the foot of page two. We can see something. If we look at the foot of page two. We can see that something. If we look at the foot of page two. We can see that miss page two. We can see that miss ofarrell, who was your executive assistant, send that e mail on to angela. The executive corresponds team. And the Flag Case Adviser. What was the Flag Case Adviser . That was what i was trying to remember earlier, there was an accelerated process around the executive Communications Team for flag cases and mps would have gone into that, i believe. If we go to page one, please . fist believe. If we go to page one, lease . �. ,. , believe. If we go to page one, lease . �. , please . At the foot of the page. This nets please . At the foot of the page. This gets forwarded please . At the foot of the page. This gets forwarded on please . At the foot of the page. This gets forwarded on to please . At the foot of the page. I this gets forwarded on to Roderick Williams this gets forwarded on to Roderick Williams by angela, and he says, thank williams by angela, and he says, thank you williams by angela, and he says, thank you angela, i agree we should us with thank you angela, i agree we should us with information but recommend we write to us with information but recommend we write to him us with information but recommend we write to him in the same terms. We have write to him in the same terms. We have every write to him in the same terms. We have every other person who says they have have every other person who says they have evidence, i have sent those they have evidence, i have sent those letters and im happy to do so again those letters and im happy to do so again was those letters and im happy to do so again. Was there a standard text letter again. Was there a standard text letter that went back to people that raised letter that went back to people that raised complaints . It letter that went back to people that raised complaints . Raised complaints . It sounds as thou h raised complaints . It sounds as though there raised complaints . It sounds as though there was. Raised complaints . It sounds as though there was. I raised complaints . It sounds as though there was. I wasnt raised complaints . It sounds as. Though there was. I wasnt aware raised complaints . It sounds as though there was. I wasnt aware of what he had. I am pretty sure i know about the gre he is referring to, i have already sent a letter acknowledging receipt of his complaint. If you agree, i will circulate something shortly. I want to send it in hard copy rather than e mail. A short e mail with any responses in the mail. Generally my view is the guy is a bluffer who keeps expecting us too much to his tune. I dont think we should do so, but instead respond with a straight back. Was it your view that mr maccormack was a bluffer . No, asi no, as i say, when i responded to him, no, as i say, when i responded to him. I no, as i say, when i responded to him. Itook no, as i say, when i responded to him, i took his challenges seriously and i him, i took his challenges seriously and i can him, i took his challenges seriously and i can remember one particular case and i can remember one particular case where and i can remember one particular case where angela went to meet an outreach case where angela went to meet an Outreach Branch he had raised a query Outreach Branch he had raised a query on Outreach Branch he had raised a query on. In Outreach Branch he had raised a cue on. Outreach branch he had raised a cue on. ,. Query on. In his email, he said ou, query on. In his email, he said you. Chief query on. In his email, he said you, chief executive, query on. In his email, he said you, chief executive, are query on. In his email, he said you, chief executive, are not i you, chief executive, are not getting the right advice from the people you have surrounded yourself with. His e mail gets forwarded to the people you have surrounded yourself with. Can you see a problem . I yourself with. Can you see a problem . Yourself with. Can you see a problem . Can i yourself with. Can you see a| problem . Can we yourself with. Can you see a problem . Can we move yourself with. Can you see a problem . Can we move on, problem . I can, yes. Can we move on, lease . I problem . I can, yes. Can we move on, please . I should problem . I can, yes. Can we move on, please . I should have problem . I can, yes. Can we move on, please . I should have said problem . I can, yes. Can we move on, please . I should have said the problem . I can, yes. Can we move on, please . I should have said the top please . I should have said the top page one. Mark davies. The pr guy. He says, wise advice with which i agree. Can we move forwards, please, to 0011 . Sorry, for 029. And look at page two, please at the top. This is made 2016 from mr maccormack directly to you. He says a typical