Impact to change ranch counts . What is the impact of to change ranch counts . What is the impact of this change on Branch Counts . Impact of this change on Branch Counts . Will Sub Postmaster be aware of the counts . Will Sub Postmaster be aware of the change . Why would this method of the change . Why would this method of axis of the change . Why would this method of axis be of the change . Why would this method of axis be used . What controls are in place of axis be used . What controls are in place to of axis be used . What controls are in place to prevent misuse of this method in place to prevent misuse of this method of in place to prevent misuse of this method of access . All penetrating questions, do you agree . Yes. And they necessarily arise from the two lines they necessarily arise from the two tines in they necessarily arise from the two tines in the they necessarily arise from the two lines in the e mail that we have seen, lines in the e mail that we have seen. They lines in the e mail that we have seen, they are logical questions that arise seen, they are logical questions that arise from it . Can we go please to page that arise from it . Can we go please to page four . Halfway down the page. Mr davidson of fujitsu halfway down the page. Mr davidson of fujitsu replies to mr williams, ptease of fujitsu replies to mr williams, please see the response below. If we io please see the response below. If we o to please see the response below. If we go to two. Please see the response below. If we go to two, thats it. Can fujitsu change go to two, thats it. Can fujitsu change Branch Transaction data without change Branch Transaction data without a change Branch Transaction data without a Sub Postmaster being aware of the without a Sub Postmaster being aware of the change . Answer, once created, branch of the change . Answer, once created, Branch Transaction data cannot be changed Branch Transaction data cannot be changed. Then this, only Additional Data can changed. Then this, only Additional Data can be changed. Then this, only Additional Data can be inserted. If this is required. Data can be inserted. If this is required, the additional transactions will be visible on the trading transactions will be visible on the Trading Statements but would not require Trading Statements but would not require acknowledgement or approval by a Sub Postmaster. The approval is given by a Sub Postmaster. The approval is given by by a Sub Postmaster. The approval is given by post office by The Change Process given by post office by The Change Process in given by post office by The Change Process. In response to a previous query. Process. In response to a previous query, fujitsu checked and found only one query, fujitsu checked and found only one occurrence in march 2010, which only one occurrence in march 2010, which was only one occurrence in march 2010, which was early in the pilot for Horizon Which was early in the pilot for horizon a which was early in the pilot for horizon. A detailed examination of archive horizon. A detailed examination of archive data would have to be undertaken to look into this access~~~ undertaken to look into this access. Sorry, look into this across access. Sorry, look into this across the access. Sorry, look into this across the lifetime of use. This would across the lifetime of use. This would be across the lifetime of use. This would be a across the lifetime of use. This would be a significant, complex process would be a significant, complex process to undertake. And discussed previously process to undertake. And discussed previously with post office, but discounted as to costly and impractical. Then he gives a series of answers impractical. Then he gives a series of answers that i wont read out to mr williams questions. Then can we gom mr williams questions. Then can we gom for mr williams questions. Then can we gom for we mr williams questions. Then can we go. Forwe move on from mr williams questions. Then can we go. For we move on from that, you agree go. For we move on from that, you agree that go. For we move on from that, you agree that this go. For we move on from that, you agree that this is fujitsu saying that fujitsu can insert Branch Transaction data . That fujitsu can insert Branch Transaction data . Yes. And this is fuitsu Transaction Data . Yes. And this is fuiitsu saying Transaction Data . Yes and this is fujitsu saying that they Transaction Data . 193 and this is fujitsu saying that they could do so without fujitsu saying that they could do so without approval by a Sub Postmaster . Without approval by a subpostmaster . Without approval by a sub ostmaster . ,. Subpostmaster . Yes, they are referrinu subpostmaster . Yes, they are referring to subpostmaster . Yes, they are referring to the subpostmaster . Yes, they are referring to the balance subpostmaster . Yes, they are referring to the balance and referring to the balance and transaction, although he has not specifically said it here. You think this is about specifically said it here. You think this is about balancing this is about Balancing Transactions . | this is about Balancing Transactions . This is about Balancing Transactions . ,. , this is about Balancing Transactions . ,. , m transactions . I think so, yes. Can we no to transactions . I think so, yes. Can we go to Page Transactions . I think so, yes. Can we go to page two. Transactions . I think so, yes. Can we go to page two, please . Transactions . I think so, yes. Can we go to page two, please . At i transactions . I think so, yes. Canl we go to page two, please . At the foot of we go to page two, please . At the foot of the we go to page two, please . At the foot of the page. Mr williams says. He mrwilliams says. He is mr williams says. He is producing a first mr williams says. He is producing a first draft mr williams says. He is producing a first draft of the note, noting that he a first draft of the note, noting that he is a first draft of the note, noting that he is intentionally not referring to that e mail as it distracts referring to that e mail as it distracts from what is otherwise a very clear distracts from what is otherwise a very clear picture. He hopes it will put the very clear picture. He hopes it will put the matter to bed, and the matter put the matter to bed, and the matter need not be escalated to the working matter need not be escalated to the working group, yes . Yes. And then. Ae. Working group, yes . Yes. And then ae~ one, working group, yes . 193 and then page one, please, that whole chain is provided page one, please, that whole chain is provided to you. The proposed interim is provided to you. The proposed interim answer to second sights guestion interim answer to second sights question as to whether it is possible question as to whether it is possible for anyone to access horizon possible for anyone to access horizon online and amend Transaction Data without the knowledge of the Sub Postmaster or their staff, the second Sub Postmaster or their staff, the second line, there is no functionality in the Horizon System either functionality in the Horizon System either through a front end terminal, or backend either through a front end terminal, or backend server to delete data once or backend server to delete data once it or backend server to delete data once it has or backend server to delete data once it has been transmitted from the data once it has been transmitted from the data centre. This is encrypted, transferred the data centre. This is encrypted, transferred to the data centre and stored transferred to the data centre and stored in transferred to the data centre and stored in a transferred to the data centre and stored in a separate audit server where stored in a separate audit server where they are recruited to ensure its integrity. The Sub Postmaster will always have visibility of these extra will always have visibility of these extra transactions as they are shown separately extra transactions as they are shown separately in the branch accounts. A more separately in the branch accounts. A more detailed note will follow. Did you approve this Holding Response and pass you approve this Holding Response and pass it you approve this Holding Response and pass it to second site . | you approve this Holding Response and pass it to second site . I didnt a rove and pass it to second site . I didnt approve it and pass it to second site . I didnt approve it why and pass it to second site . I didnt approve it. Why was and pass it to second site . I didnt approve it. Why was it and pass it to second site . I didnt approve it. Why was it being and pass it to second site . I didnt approve it. Why was it being sent l and pass it to second site . I didntl approve it. Why was it being sent to ou . To approve it. Why was it being sent to you . To pass approve it. Why was it being sent to you . To pass on. Approve it. Why was it being sent to you . To pass on. I approve it. Why was it being sent to you . To pass on, i think. Approve it. Why was it being sent to you . To pass on, i think. To approve it. Why was it being sent to you . To pass on, i think. To second| you . To pass on, i think. To second site . I you . To pass on, i think. To second site . I think you . To pass on, i think. To second site . I think so. You . To pass on, i think. To second site . Ithink so. I you . To pass on, i think. To second site . I think so. I tended you . To pass on, i think. To second site . I think so. I tended to you . To pass on, i think. To second site . I think so. I tended to be site . I think so. I tended to be aassin site . I think so. I tended to be passing things site . I think so. I tended to be passing things onto site . I think so. I tended to be passing things onto them site . I think so. I tended to be passing things onto them at i site . I think so. I tended to be. Passing things onto them at the time. Passing things onto them at the time. . , , passing things onto them at the time. I. ,. , i. Passing things onto them at the time. ,. , , passing things onto them at the time. , ~. , time. Can you keep your voice up, lease . Time. Can you keep your voice up, please . I time. Can you keep your voice up, please . I tended time. Can you keep your voice up, please . I tended to time. Can you keep your voice up, please . I tended to be time. Can you keep your voice up, please . I tended to be passing i please . I tended to be passing thins please . I tended to be passing things onto please . I tended to be passing things onto them please . I tended to be passing things onto them at please . I tended to be passing things onto them at the please . I tended to be passing things onto them at the time l please . I tended to be passing. Things onto them at the time for please . I tended to be passing i things onto them at the time for the information. He doesnt mention Balancing Transactions or stop looking at this now, it should have mentioned Balancing Transactions. You are ahead of me in the things it failed you are ahead of me in the things it failed to you are ahead of me in the things it failed to mention. You are ahead of me in the things it failed to mention. It you are ahead of me in the things it failed to mention. It fails i failed to mention. Sorry. It fails to set out failed to mention. Sorry. It fails to set out that failed to mention. Sorry. It fails to set out that fujitsu failed to mention. Sorry. It fails to set out that fujitsu could i failed to mention. Sorry. It fails i to set out that fujitsu could Insert Additionat to set out that fujitsu could insert additional Transaction Data outside of Transaction Corrections doesnt it . , , and of Transaction Corrections doesnt it . And that of Transaction Corrections doesnt it . And that that i it . Yes, it does. And that that didnt require it . Yes, it does. And that that didnt require the it . Yes, it does. And that that didnt require the approval i it . Yes, it does. And that that didnt require the approval orl didnt require the approval or knowledge of the Sub Postmaster. It doesnt knowledge of the Sub Postmaster. It doesnt say knowledge of the Sub Postmaster. It doesnt say that either, does it . No, it doesnt say that either, does it . No, it doesnt. It doesnt say that either, does it . No, it doesnt. Doesnt say that either, does it . No, it doesnt. It failed to inform second site no, it doesnt. It failed to inform second site that no, it doesnt. It failed to inform second site that the no, it doesnt. It failed to inform second site that the post no, it doesnt. It failed to inform second site that the Post Office L Second Site that the post office coutd second site that the post office could not second site that the post office could not address the extent of any use of could not address the extent of any use of Remote Access in legacy horizon. Use of Remote Access in legacy horizon, which had been used for ten years, horizon, which had been used for ten years, because a detailed examination of archive data was needed examination of archive data was needed and that would be costly and impractical. It doesnt say that, does impractical. It doesnt say that, does it . Impractical. It doesnt say that, does it . No, it doesnt. Can you see why the does it . No, it doesnt. Can you see why the two does it . No, it doesnt. Can you see why the two decided not to include those why the two decided not to include those pieces of information . | those pieces of information . I dont know. It those pieces of information . I dont know it has those pieces of information . I dont know it has a those pieces of information . I dont know. It has a more those pieces of information . I dont know. It has a more detailed those pieces of information . I dont know. It has a more detailed note l know. It has a more detailed note will follow. I dont know what further work and he expected to be done on this . Just reading what we havejust gone through, done on this . Just reading what we have just gone through, even though James Davidson didnt mention Balancing Transaction by name, that is what i took from reading this. At the time, i wouldnt have known about a Balancing Transaction, i have learned about that subsequently, and a tutor been put into this. I think i have forward this on as that is our position at the moment, exciting Something Else to follow, but i dont know what. The moment, exciting Something Else to follow, but i dont know what. Do to follow, but i dont know what. Do ou to follow, but i dont know what. Do you agree that the answer that has been you agree that the answer that has been drafted by mr parsons, by comparison to the information provided comparison to the information provided by fujitsu, is materially incomplete . Provided by fuitsu, is materially incomplete . Provided by fujitsu, is materially incomplete . Yes. Can we move on, lease . Can we start with page two, please . We are can we start with page two, please . We are in can we start with page two, please . We are in october 2014 now. If we ust we are in october 2014 now. If we just took we are in october 2014 now. If we just took at we are in october 2014 now. If we just look at the foot of page one to et just look at the foot of page one to get the just look at the foot of page one to get the context. An e mail from jessica get the context. An e mail from Jessica Parker to a wide ranging peopte. Jessica parker to a wide ranging people, including you. It is about one of people, including you. It is about one of their people, including you. It is about one of their cases that has been referred one of their cases that has been referred to one of their cases that has been referred to mediation, yes . Yes. Second site referred to mediation, yes . Yes. Second site have referred to mediation, yes . Yes. Second site have released i referred to mediation, yes . Yes. Second site have released a i referred to mediation, yes . 193 second site have released a revised version Second Site Have Released A Revised Version Of Second Site Have Released A Revised Version Of their draft crr. Can you remember version of their draft crr. Can you remember what they are . Remember what they are . Cursory re orts. Remember what they are . Cursory reports it remember what they are . Cursory reports it is remember what they are . Cursory reports. It is essentially remember what they are . Cursory reports. It is essentially a remember what they are . Cursory reports. It is essentially a draft i reports. It is essentially a draft of what they reports. It is essentially a draft of what they propose reports. It is essentially a draft of what they propose to reports. It is essentially a draft of what they propose to say i reports. It is essentially a draft i of what they propose to say about an individual of what they propose to say about an individual case, is that right . Thats individual case, is that right . Thats correct. Individual case, is that right . Thats correct. Just read the rest ofthat thats correct. Just read the rest of that to yourself thats correct. Just read the rest of that to yourself because i thats correct. Just read the rest of that to yourself because it i thats correct. Just read the rest of that to yourself because it is l of that to yourself because it is not entirely material. If we go back to page not entirely material. If we go back to page one, please. Middle of the page to page one, please. Middle of the page. Belinda crowe, what role was she performing in late 2014 . Belinda was the programme she performing in late 2014 . Belinda was the Programme Director she performing in late 2014 . Belinda was the Programme Director for i was the Programme Director for project sparrow, she also was the secretariat for the working group. The scheme working group. She asked a cuestion, the scheme working group. She asked a question. Is the scheme working group. She asked a question, is this the scheme working group. She asked a question, is this the the scheme working group. She asked a question, is this the first the scheme working group. She asked a question, is this the first crr a question, is this the first crr which a question, is this the first crr which references Remote Access . I think which references Remote Access . I think we which references Remote Access . I think we need to pick this up very robustly think we need to pick this up very robustty in think we need to pick this up very robustly in our response, as this could robustly in our response, as this could become public and second site appear could become public and second site appear to could become public and second site appear to be looking for proof that something didnt happen. Can we dust off our something didnt happen. Can we dust off our tines something didnt happen. Can we dust off our lines on this . If we scroll up off our lines on this . If we scroll up the off our lines on this . If we scroll up the page, please . Melanie corfietd, up the page, please . Melanie corfield, late 2014, what role she performing . She corfield, late 2014, what role she performing . Performing . She was part of the comms Team Performing . She was part of the comms team. So performing . She was part of the comms team. So a performing . She was part of the comms team. So a media i performing . She was part of the comms team. So a media and i comms team. So a media and Communications Comms team. So a media and Communications Expert . I comms team. So a media and Communications Expert . Or l Communications Expert . Or professional . Communications expert . Or professional . She i Communications Expert . Or professional . Yes. She replies to the same groom professional . 193 she replies to the same group, including you, our current the same group, including you, our current tine. The same group, including you, our current line, if we are asked about remote current line, if we are asked about Remote Access to change branch data or transactions, Remote Access to change branch data ortransactions, is Remote Access to change branch data or transactions, is simply, Remote Access to change branch data ortransactions, is simply, this Remote Access to change branch data or transactions, is simply, this is not and or transactions, is simply, this is not and never has been possible. You knew not and never has been possible. You knew that not and never has been possible. You knew that was false from multiple sources knew that was false from multiple sources by then, didnt you . Yes, because what sources by then, didnt you . Yes, because what we sources by then, didnt you . Yes, because what we have sources by then, didnt you . Yes, because what we have seen i sources by then, didnt you . 193 because what we have seen is injecting transactions, Balancing Transactions. Taste injecting transactions, Balancing Transactions. Transactions. We have the 2010 email that transactions. We have the 2010 email that you transactions. We have the 2010 email that you dont transactions. We have the 2010 email that you dont recall, i transactions. We have the 2010| email that you dont recall, the e mail that you dont recall, the 20111 e mail that you dont recall, the 20111 the e mail that you dont recall, the 2011, the early exchanges in april and may 2011, the early exchanges in april and may 2014. That first statement, this is and may 2014. That first statement, this is not and may 2014. That first statement, this is not and has never been possible. This is not and has never been possible, is false . She this is not and has never been possible, is false . This is not and has never been possible, is false . She is talking about changing possible, is false . She is talking about changing branch possible, is false . She is talking about changing branch data. I possible, is false . She is talking i about changing branch data. Yeah, i think it is a stretch. Im talking about inserting transactions. Im not sure. That is what she says, change Branch Transactions. You wouldnt want change Branch Transactions. You wouldnt want a change Branch Transactions. You wouldnt want a Post Office Line to dance wouldnt want a Post Office Line to dance on wouldnt want a Post Office Line to dance on the head of a pin, would you . Dance on the head of a pin, would you . No, dance on the head of a pin, would you . No, i dance on the head of a pin, would you . No, iwouldnt. Which is dance on the head of a pin, would you . No, i wouldnt. Which is what i you . No, iwouldnt. Which is what i think you . No, i wouldnt. Which is what i think you you . No, i wouldnt. Which is what i think you were doing a moment ago, contemplating the possibility that because contemplating the possibility that because this doesnt talk about injecting because this doesnt talk about injecting new data. I� m because this doesnt talk about injecting new data. Injecting new data. Im ust t in to injecting new data. Im ust trying to rationalised, i injecting new data. Im just l trying to rationalised, because injecting new data. Im just i trying to rationalised, because what we just talked about was the Balancing Transaction. It we just talked about was the Balancing Transaction. It continues, this line holds, Balancing Transaction. It continues, this line holds, but Balancing Transaction. It continues, this line holds, but if Balancing Transaction. It continues, this line holds, but if we Balancing Transaction. It continues, this line holds, but if we are this line holds, but if we are pressed this line holds, but if we are pressed regarding second sights points pressed regarding second sights points about admitting that promote access, points about admitting that promote access, we points about admitting that promote access, we can see there is no Remote Access, we can see there is no Remote Access for individual Branch Transactions. You knew that was. From transactions. You knew that was. From multiple sources, didnt you . Do you from multiple sources, didnt you . Do you mind . James davidson e mail, what it was on that . The do you mind . James davidson email, what it was on that . What it was on that . The davidson email was what it was on that . The davidson email was 9th what it was on that . The davidson email was 9th of what it was on that . The davidson email was 9th of may. What it was on that . The davidson email was 9th of may. 2014 . I what it was on that . The davidson i email was 9th of may. 2014 . Yeah. Sor , email was 9th of may. 2014 . Yeah. Sorry. Your email was 9th of may. 2014 . Yeah. Sorry, your original email was 9th of may. 2014 . Yeah. Sorry, your original question e mail was 9th of may. 2214 yeah. Sorry, your original question was, that was false . On the back of the e mail from that was false . On the back of the e mailfrom James Davidson, i was clearly aware of that and i didnt pick this up. Clearly aware of that and i didnt pick this up pick this up. Miss corfield continues, pick this up. Miss corfield continues, we pick this up. Miss corfield continues, we might i pick this up. Miss corfield continues, we might get. Pick this up. Miss corfield i continues, we might get pushed further continues, we might get pushed further on continues, we might get pushed further on it and be asked by media to confirm further on it and be asked by media to confirm whether or not there is any remote to confirm whether or not there is any Remote Access. We will need to make any Remote Access. We will need to make the any Remote Access. We will need to make the distinction about access as straightforward as possible, suggesting there is no access for individual suggesting there is no access for individual transactions, fujitsu suggesting there is no access for individualtransactions, fujitsu has individual transactions, fujitsu has technical individual transactions, fujitsu has technical access individualtransactions, fujitsu has technical access for updates, but could technical access for updates, but could not technical access for updates, but could not be used for individual branch could not be used for individual Branch Transactions. There is no facility Branch Transactions. There is no facility at Branch Transactions. There is no facility at all within the system for this facility at all within the system for this. You knew that was full as well, for this. You knew that was full as well, didnt for this. You knew that was full as well, didnt you . It for this. You knew that was full as well, didnt you . Well, didnt you . It didnt register with me at well, didnt you . It didnt register with me at the well, didnt you . It didnt register with me at the time, well, didnt you . It didnt register with me at the time, but well, didnt you . It didnt register| with me at the time, but obviously from what we have discussed, this is incorrect in terms of the flow of information, yes. 50 incorrect in terms of the flow of information, yes. Incorrect in terms of the flow of information, yes. So the three lines which seem information, yes. So the three lines which seem to information, yes. So the three lines which seem to be information, yes. So the three lines which seem to be a information, yes. So the three lines which seem to be a main information, yes. So the three lines which seem to be a main in information, yes. So the three lines i which seem to be a main in paragraph one and. Which seem to be a main in paragraph one and. If which seem to be a main in paragraph one and, if pressed, i live in paragraph one and, if pressed, i live in paragraph two, and if really pushed, in paragraph three, all of them contain in paragraph three, all of them contain statements which you knew to be futt contain statements which you knew to be full. , � , be full. Although i didnt recognise it at the time. Be full. Although i didnt recognise it at the time, yes. Be full. Although i didnt recognise it at the time, yes. Be full. Although i didnt recognise it at the time, yes. You be full. Although i didnt recognise it at the time, yes. You knew. Be full. Although i didnt recognisej it at the time, yes. You knew to it at the time, yes. You knew to be false. It at the time, yes. You knew to be false. , , it at the time, yes. You knew to be false. , , , it at the time, yes. You knew to be false. , ,. , it at the time, yes. You knew to be false. , , ,. , , be false. Did you do anything to correct these be false. Did you do anything to correct these full be false. Did you do anything to correct these full slide be false. Did you do anything to correct these full slide is . I be false. Did you do anything to correct these full slide is . I correct these full slide is . These correct these full slide is . These false lines. My correct these full slide is . These false lines. Correct these full slide is . These false lines. My answer is that i dont remember. These false lines. My answer is that i dont remember. Can these false lines. My answer is that i dont remember. Can you these false lines. My answer is that i dont remember. Can you help i these false lines. My answer is that| i dont remember. Can you help us . We have seen i dont remember. Can you help us . We have seen a i dont remember. Can you help us . We have seen a slew i dont remember. Can you help us . We have seen a slew of i dont remember. Can you help us . We have seen a slew of emails i i dont remember. Can you help us . | we have seen a slew of emails now we have seen a slew of e mails now that informs we have seen a slew of e mails now that informs you in One Way Or Another that informs you in One Way Or Another of that informs you in One Way Or Another of the facility of fujitsu to remotely access individual transactions in branch accounts and change transactions in branch accounts and change them by inserting data. Why woutdnt change them by inserting data. Why wouldnt you put your hand up and say, hotd wouldnt you put your hand up and say, hold on, this is all wrong . I ust say, hold on, this is all wrong . Just cant say, hold on, this is all wrong . I just cant recall. To me, it couldnt have registered with me in terms of the flow of information that had gone before. As i said, the messaging was constantly changing, but on the back of the James Davidson e mail, i think which had come from fujitsu, other information had come from within the business or from different sources, but that had come from fujitsu and therefore that, for me, should have been registering, notwithstanding the note that andy put together, but it should been registering that that was fujitsu with the same could happen, which was the Balancing Transaction. If happen, which was the Balancing Transaction transaction. If we scroll down a little bit. Thank transaction. If we scroll down a little bit. Thank you. Transaction. If we scroll down a little bit. Thank you. Belinda i transaction. If we scroll down a i little bit. Thank you. Belinda crowe says. Little bit. Thank you. Belinda crowe says. I little bit. Thank you. Belinda crowe says. Ithink little bit. Thank you. Belinda crowe says, i think we need to pick this up, says, i think we need to pick this up. That says, i think we need to pick this up. That is says, i think we need to pick this up. That is a says, i think we need to pick this up, that is a suggestion of Remote Access. Up, that is a suggestion of Remote Access. Very up, that is a suggestion of Remote Access, very robustly in our response. Access, very robustly in our response, as this could become public response, as this could become public is response, as this could become public. Is that the reason why you didnt public. Is that the reason why you didnt pick public. Is that the reason why you didnt pick any of this up and say, hotd didnt pick any of this up and say, hold on. Didnt pick any of this up and say, hold on, there are three tempering macro hold on, there are three tempering Macro Statements . The business wanted Macro Statements . The business wanted to Macro Statements . The business wanted to respond robustly. | wanted to respond robustly. Wouldnt wanted to respond robustly. I wouldnt have. If it had registered with me, i would have challenged it. Because we had one of the applicants to the scheme, which is what has triggered all of this anyway, that was already in the Public Domain, because we were not openly in the Public Domain but we were dealing with that. If that is what our position should have been, we should have been saying that. I just must have missed it. You we should have been saying that. I just must have missed it. Just must have missed it. You and cuite a just must have missed it. You and quite a lot just must have missed it. You and quite a lot of just must have missed it. You and quite a lot of other just must have missed it. You and quite a lot of other people. In i quite a lot of other people. In terms quite a lot of other people. Terms of quite a lot of other people. In terms of who else missed it . Yeah. Is it a case of everyone missing it, or is is it a case of everyone missing it, or is it is it a case of everyone missing it, or is it that is it a case of everyone missing it, or is it that the overriding objective is to defend, very robustly, the position that there is no remote robustly, the position that there is no Remote Access . That robustly, the position that there is no Remote Access . Robustly, the position that there is no Remote Access . That was never my osition. I no Remote Access . That was never my position i came no Remote Access . That was never my position. I came into no Remote Access . That was never my position. I came into the no Remote Access . That was never my position. I came into the scheme i position. I came into the scheme originally, at the start, to get under the skin of, was there any substance in the claims . I took that role on voluntarily along with the day job role on voluntarily along with the dayjob i was doing at the time because i wanted to understand. There is no way that, if i had thought there was something in that, that i would have. I was certainly not trying to cover up or suppress or do anything along those lines, and that is the bit im struggling with, because it wasntjust me, there are other people party to the same information at that point. Thank you. That can come down. Can we move thank you. That can come down. Can we move forward to 2015, still dealing we move forward to 2015, still dealing with Remote Access . Give me a moment while i catch up with my give me a moment while i catch up with my paper. This is, as you can see at the top, a briefing this is, as you can see at the top, a briefing for this is, as you can see at the top, a briefing for you in relation to an internal a briefing for you in relation to an internal film, for panorama. It relates, internal film, for panorama. It relates, to internal film, for panorama. It relates, to give you some context, to the relates, to give you some context, to the bbc relates, to give you some context, to the bbc panorama episode that was called to the bbc panorama episode that was called trouble at the post office. That was called trouble at the post office. That was eventually aired in august 2015 that was eventually aired in august 2015 the that was eventually aired in august 2015. The document itself isnt dated, 2015. The document itself isnt dated, but it was sent to you by n1eit dated, but it was sent to you by Mail Corfield by e mail on the 18th ofjune Mail Corfield by e mail on the 18th ofjune 2015. Mail corfield by email on the 18th ofjune 2015 ofjune 2015. Ok. If we Ust Familiarise i ofjune 2015. Ok. If we Ust Familiarise ourselves h ofjune 2015. Ok. If wejUst Familiarise ourselves with l of june 2015. Ok. If we jUst Familiarise ourselves with this, because i dont thing we have seen this before. Because i dont thing we have seen this before this before. Background, a film for use to deliver this before. Background, a film for use to deliver key this before. Background, a film for use to deliver key messages this before. Background, a film for use to deliver key messages and i use to deliver key messages and facts use to deliver key messages and facts about allegations likely to be made facts about allegations likely to be made in facts about allegations likely to be made in the bbc panorama programme. Supplemented by the full internal Communications Plan currently in development. Although an internal film, development. Although an internal film. It development. Although an internal film, it will be in public so available film, it will be in public so available to external audiences. There available to external audiences. There will available to external audiences. There will be hard hitting question and answer sessions. So this was going and answer sessions. So this was going to and answer sessions. So this was going to be and answer sessions. So this was going to be a q a where brunswick, the media, going to be a q a where brunswick, the media, is put questions, hard hitting questions to you, as you answer hard hitting questions to you, as you answer them . And this was intended you answer them . And this was intended for internal consumption principally, yes chris and mark that was the principally, yes chris and mark that was the intention, yes. Why will focus was the intention, yes. Why Will Focus On was the intention, yes. Why Will Focus On rebuttals of accusations made focus on rebuttals of accusations made by focus on rebuttals of accusations made by panorama, it will help reassure made by panorama, it will help reassure people regarding the system and make reassure people regarding the system and make sure they are being kept well informed, including signposting to other well informed, including signposting to other materials. We appreciate your guidance about the messaging for the your guidance about the messaging for the network on this subject. Panorama, for the network on this subject. Panorama, you will have seen the latest panorama, you will have seen the latest e mail sent on friday, the theme latest e mail sent on friday, the theme appears to be an allegation of a Potential Theme appears to be an allegation of a potential Miscarriage Ofjustice or miscarriages ofjustice through Inappropriate Conduct by the post office, Inappropriate Conduct by the post office, especially regarding alleged pressure office, especially regarding alleged pressure on postmasters to plead guilty pressure on postmasters to plead guilty to pressure on postmasters to plead guilty to full counting, focusing on three guilty to full counting, focusing on three criminal cases, aspects of which three criminal cases, aspects of which they three criminal cases, aspects of which they are likely to attempt to illustrate which they are likely to attempt to illustrate white allegations, which will apply significant human interest. Illustrate wider allegations. They are likely to refer allegations. They are likely to refer heavily to second xis inquiry throughout, they are lucky to have contributors who will cast doubt about contributors who Will Cast Doubt About Horizon through technical opinions, about horizon through technical opinions, supposed revelations, but aspects opinions, supposed revelations, but aspects of opinions, supposed revelations, but aspects of the system highly likely to include at least one stunt in the programme and could well be on the Subject Programme and could well be on the subject of programme and could well be on the subject of alleged Remote Access. Indications are they will also be selectively its material that will be used selectively its material that will be used out of context, likely to include be used out of context, likely to include allegations that the post office include allegations that the post office is include allegations that the post office is not from the mediation Scheme Office is not from the Mediation Scheme fairly and has hampered it to avoid scheme fairly and has hampered it to avoid the scheme fairly and has hampered it to avoid the risk of compensation. I wont avoid the risk of compensation. I wont read avoid the risk of compensation. I wont read the rest of that page. Can we wont read the rest of that page. Can we go wont read the rest of that page. Can we go to page three, please . The key messages. Would you understand, these are key messages. Would you understand, these are the key messages for you to get these are the key messages for you to get out . These are the key messages for you to get out . As these are the key messages for you to net out . A , these are the key messages for you to retout . A , these are the key messages for you to get out . To get out . As this is written, yes. Number one. To get out . As this is written, yes. Number one, this to get out . As this is written, yes. Number one, this is to get out . As this is written, yes. Number one, this is about to get out . As this is written, yes. Number one, this is about missing j number one, this is about missing money. Number one, this is about missing money, which we have a duty to protect money, which we have a duty to protect. Trust is vital. We have a duty protect. Trust is vital. We have a duty to protect. Trust is vital. We have a duty to protect their money in our branches~ duty to protect their money in our branches~ if duty to protect their money in our branches. If cash goes missing, and this is branches. If cash goes missing, and this is covered up, we must investigate and act on this. We dont investigate and act on this. We dont prosecute people for making mistakes, dont prosecute people for making mistakes, we never have and never will. Prosecutions are very rare and only in will. Prosecutions are very rare and only in the will. Prosecutions are very rare and only in the light of all Available Evidence only in the light of all Available Evidence and circumstances. Then the second evidence and circumstances. Then the Second Key Evidence and circumstances. Then the second key message. We do not control second key message. We do not control the legal process. If we do prosecute. Control the legal process. If we do prosecute, this is done with numerous checks and balances, ultimately scrutinised by the courts themselves. We do not pressure anyone themselves. We do not pressure anyone regarding their plea to a charge anyone regarding their plea to a charge. The decision to plead guilty or not charge. The decision to plead guilty or not guilty is one for the defendant only, having taken advice. Criminal defendant only, having taken advice. Criminal cases are kept under continual criminal cases are kept under continual review, that is our absolute continual review, that is our absolute duty. In none of our investigations, northrough absolute duty. In none of our investigations, nor through that of the independent accountants, as any evidence the independent accountants, as any evidence emerged to show that any conviction evidence emerged to show that any conviction was unsafe. It should not be considered in any case. Those messages, be considered in any case. Those messages, it is about stolen money, and we messages, it is about stolen money, and we the messages, it is about stolen money, and we the post office dont control the legal and we the post office dont control the legal process, it is Defence Lawyers the legal process, it is Defence Lawyers and the courts. Did you understand in mid 2015 they were the key messages that the post office wished key messages that the post office wished to get out . | key messages that the post office wished to get out . Key messages that the post office wished to get out . I hadnt seen it ut wished to get out . I hadnt seen it put together wished to get out . I hadnt seen it put together in wished to get out . I hadnt seen it put together in one wished to get out . I hadnt seen it put together in one place, wished to get out . I hadnt seen it put together in one place, but wished to get out . I hadnt seen it | put together in one place, but given that this was put together as a Briefing Document for me, then yes. The third key message is, there is nothing the third key message is, there is nothing wrong with the Computer System nothing wrong with the Computer System. Before i ask you about that, can we system. Before i ask you about that, can we scroll system. Before i ask you about that, can we scroll up, please . And again. This is can we scroll up, please . And again. This is all can we scroll up, please . And again. This is all about missing money that we have this is all about missing money that we have a this is all about missing money that we have a duty to protect. We heard evidence we have a duty to protect. We heard evidence earlier this week from susan evidence earlier this week from susan crichton, the general counsel of the susan crichton, the general counsel of the post susan crichton, the general counsel of the post office, and she told the chairman of the post office, and she told the chairman that you were amongst a Group Chairman that you were amongst a group of chairman that you were amongst a group of people who had been in the post office group of people who had been in the post office for a very long time, who held post office for a very long time, who held the view that this was public who held the view that this was public money that was being stolen, it needed public money that was being stolen, it needed to be protected and it needed it needed to be protected and it needed to be recovered through prosecutions. Is that correct . In terms prosecutions. Is that correct . Terms of prosecutions. Is that correct . In terms of taxpayer money, i was always made aware that it was taxpayer money when i came into the post office, so that was a consideration. Therefore we had a duty to protect it and make sure that we have the right checks in place. Recovery through prosecution, that would not have been on my radar at all. From an operational perspective, it was about having the consideration that it was taxpayer money, notjust in the context of Sub Postmasters as a business as a whole. M5 subpostmasters as a business as a whole. ~ ,. , whole. Ms crichton held the view that there was whole. Ms crichton held the view that there was a whole. Ms crichton held the view that there was a group whole. Ms crichton held the view that there was a group of whole. Ms crichton held the view that there was a group of people | whole. Ms crichton held the view that there was a group of people who were particularly long serving, including were particularly long serving, including you, that emphasised this point, including you, that emphasised this point, ratherthan itjust including you, that emphasised this point, rather than itjust being a factor point, rather than itjust being a factor or point, rather than itjust being a factor or matter, as you have described factor or matter, as you have described it today, that is part of the background. Is it something you emphasised, that it is public money that you emphasised, that it is public money that you have a duty to protect . No, i never that you have a duty to protect . Firm. I never remember doing that. I have beenin i never remember doing that. I have been in the business for a long time, i started working in branch and it was always part of the consideration that we were in that kozai state where we were required to make a profit as well. We should have consideration for taxpayer money, but not as if it was a real emphasis against anything else. It wasnt the be all and end all, it wasnt the be all and end all, it was a consideration, and i dont remember ever emphasising that to susan or anybody else. Kevin was network, he had been in the business longer than me, actually, and they would be other people in the network that would have been as long as me or longer. I dont remember it ever being emphasised, but it was a consideration. Being emphasised, but it was a consideration. �. , consideration. There wasnt a cabal of iona consideration. There wasnt a cabal of long serving. Consideration. There wasnt a cabal of long serving. Up consideration. There wasnt a cabal of long serving, up through consideration. There wasnt a cabal of long serving, up through the of long serving, up through the ranks. Of long serving, up through the ranks, started off as Counter Clerks or similar ranks, started off as Counter Clerks or similar who held the belief that it was or similar who held the belief that it was Sub Postmasters with a hand in the it was Sub Postmasters with a hand in the till . It was Sub Postmasters with a hand in the till . We it was subpostmasters with a hand in the till . ~. , in the till . We will leave the in. Ui in the till . We will leave the inquiry that. In the till . We will leave the inquiry that, with in the till . We will leave the inquiry that, with the in the till . We will leave the inquiry that, with the key i in the till . We will leave the inquiry that, with the key executive during the scandal giving evidence this morning. Between 1999 and 2015, more than 900 Sub Postmasters were prosecuted because the Horizon Scheme made it appear as if money was missing. She recalled an e mail revealed that in 2010. She also said that she was sorry about what had happened, she said this morning she was truly sorry for the devastation caused to you, your family and friends, she said with the Sub Postmasters, but she didnt knowingly do anything wrong, was the tenor of her evidence is morning. Do stay with us, you can catch up with the inquiry by using the button on the inquiry by using the button on the screen. Time for the 1pm use. Goodbye. Today at one one of the most senior bosses at the post office apologises to victims of the horizon it scandal. Angela van den bogerd tells the Public Inquiry she never knowingly did anything wrong. I do want to say to everyone impacted by wrongful convictions and wrongful Contract Terminations that i am truly, truly sorry for the devastation caused to you, your family and friends. Power sharing in scotland collapses the First Minister says the snps deal with the green party is over. The biggest Rail Overhaul in a generation. Labour says itll renationalise most Passenger Services if it wins the general election. And, History Makers meet the british sailors who are the first all female crew to win a round the world yacht race. On bbc london, withjust a week to go until londoners vote