Transcripts For BBCNEWS BBC 20240704

He said risen for the afternoon session. Before we go to that lets talk to our correspondent. Welcome to you. Another government have been a recurring theme is that this inquiry and this goes back to him changing a Welsh Parliament issued mobile phone in march 2022. Mil changing a Welsh Parliament issued mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that phone mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that phone had mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that phone had a mobile phone in march 2022. All was fine until that phone had a security i fine until that phone had a Security Rebuild and then the whatsapp messages were wiped. We try to retrieve them with the help of the senate It Department and whatsapp itself but they couldnt. He thought they had been backed up but they were not. He says this is a matter of real embarrassment and some regret that the inquiry doesnt have these messages. We also talked about waless preparation not having been as good as it could have been and that was difficult for some of the families to listen to. Some frustration around the Welsh Governments relationship of the uk government. He described Cobra Meeting chaired by mrjohnson in which he said mrjohnson were scatty, incoherent and ramblings. He said there are better run when dominic raab or matt hancock was in charge. You will face questions on care home discharge policy, one of the most controversial aspects of the most controversial aspects of the pandemic youre in wales and see all this through the prism of the welsh labour leadership campaign. He is in the running, voting closes on thursday and if there are they were members who have not made up their mind that there is a possibility that the perception of a good or a bad performance could have a bearing on that leadership race. And what are that wales was not as prepared as it should have been. Other parts of the united kingdom, the preparation very however, if we had had that advice, for example, the middle of april, that actually really should do this, and our advice is definitely do it. At that staff so some people suggested this was not having access to tears and thatis was not having access to tears and that is why we didnt do it and actually the point im making is, well, actually, we are being advised to do that anyway. And we do not have test for the first point was, the advice but if we had had the advice and the test then we saying this is what we should do and earlier in mid april then we she divvied at the time it was a question of Resource Management . It was a question of Resource Management . Was a question of Resource Manauement . ,. ,. ,. ,. , management . It was a question of our Understanding Management . It was a question of our understanding of management . It was a question of our understanding of the management . It was a question of our understanding of the position. Management . It was a question of our understanding of the position. Is understanding of the position. Is that in the technical paper. That is why the Policy Position did not move but if the Policy Position had been at that point, you should do evertons received a body of scientific material by that stage built up from a variety of sources, officials at sage had been asked by Professor Ferguson what an epidemic with 4000 deaths a day looks like and there it was much more data by that weekend on the likely impact on the nhs. That change of direction was communicated to you on a Cobra Meeting on the 16th Of March. I suppose just clearing this one thing up, from those attendance records it doesnt confirm your attendance but in your Witness Statement you confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. Iii confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. U, confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. U,. ,. , confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. U,. ,. , ~. , confirm you attended, is that right . Yes. ,. , yes. If we can look at page four, first paragraph. Yes. If we can look at page four, first paragraph, patrick yes. If we can look at page four, first paragraph, Patrick Vallance| first paragraph, Patrick Vallance and chris whitty told the meeting that the uk was on the cusp of the fast upward swing of infections. They had been 35 confirmed deaths in the uk including the first covid i9 related deaths recorded in wales that day. And then if we have a look at paragraph two, the proposed Intervention Measures outlined there were agreed upon at this Cobra Meeting. Those Intervention Measures would obviously have significant economic and also social impact. When they were introduced in wales. Were you satisfied that there had been proper consideration by the Welsh Government of implementing these proposed Intervention Measures . I suppose what i have in mind specifically is, as i spoke about earlier, the demographic characteristics of the welsh population. So the impact on the elderly, the impact on the vulnerable . Elderly, the impact on the vulnerable . ,. , vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a roer vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a proper consideration vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a proper consideration of vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a proper consideration of the vulnerable . So, yes, there had been a proper consideration of the fact a proper consideration of the fact that if a proper consideration of the fact that if the a proper consideration of the fact that if the virus is growing significantly as it is and if we know significantly as it is and if we know that our population is vulnerable, then needing to act, and as we vulnerable, then needing to act, and as we went vulnerable, then needing to act, and as we went through before the break, understanding the evidence picture on the understanding the evidence picture on the 12th and 13th going into cobra on the 12th and 13th going into cobra on on the 12th and 13th going into cobra on the 16th, the evidence picture cobra on the 16th, the evidence picture was hard during those days on the picture was hard during those days on the need to do more. So yes, i was clear on the need to do more. So yes, i was clear that we would need to do that to was clear that we would need to do that to prevent really direct harm. But in that to prevent really direct harm. But in understanding the full suite of what but in understanding the full suite of what that means for all the indirect of what that means for all the indirect harms, lives and livelihoods and everything around those, livelihoods and everything around those, then i think it would be dishonest to try to claim that everything around that had been fully worked through because the picture fully worked through because the picture is fully worked through because the picture is moving really fast and by then the picture is moving really fast and by then the treasury havent got through then the treasury havent got through to doing, for example, understanding what fellow is going to look understanding what fellow is going to look like and how it is going to work to look like and how it is going to work i to look like and how it is going to work. I dont want to give your misleading answer. Excess dummett yes, i misleading answer. Excess dummett yes, i understood very clearly, covid yes, i understood very clearly, covid is yes, i understood very clearly, covid is growing, its an even bigger covid is growing, its an even bigger problem than it was the other side of bigger problem than it was the other side of the bigger problem than it was the other side of the weekend and we need to do this side of the weekend and we need to do this and side of the weekend and we need to do this and we are signed up to taking do this and we are signed up to taking measures do it and that gives us the taking measures do it and that gives us the best taking measures do it and that gives us the best prospect of protecting people us the best prospect of protecting people here and indeed across the rest of people here and indeed across the rest of the people here and indeed across the rest of the uk. If people here and indeed across the rest of the uk. Rest of the uk. If you can look at another set rest of the uk. If you can look at another set of rest of the uk. If you can look at another set of minutes, rest of the uk. If you can look at | another set of minutes, covid19 another set of minutes, covid 19 core group of minutes, covid 19 core Group Minutes from a meeting on the 18th Of March, a few days later, looking at paragraph one, the virus was circling sing in the community, 136 cases in wales and two recorded fatalities. The uk was four weeks into the curve is expected to be another 11 weeks before the extent of the virus peaked. Just pausing there, you were aware at this stage of the need to act urgently to stop the nhs in wales being overwhelmed, correct . ~ , the nhs in wales being overwhelmed, correct . Turn the nhs in wales being overwhelmed, correct . Turn over the nhs in wales being overwhelmed, correct . Turn over the correct . Absolutely. Turn over the. Ae. Correct . Absolutely. Turn over the a~e onto correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page two. Correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page two, have correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page two, have a correct . Absolutely. Turn over the page onto page two, have a look l correct . Absolutely. Turn over the | page onto page two, have a look at some paragraphs theyre starting at paragraph 11 dealing with schools. There is a discussion about the policy on School Closures and it is noted here that sage was in the process of updating its advice for cobra, the 18th Of March. Have a look at paragraph 13, please. There is recognition here that once schools were closed, unlikely they would reopen until the autumn term so the impact on exams would need to be considered. We know the decision was taken to close schools in wales early for easter this day, so on the 18th Of March, that was announced by kirsty williams, the then education minister. Ms williams says in her Witness Statement that on the 16th Of March there was another Cobra Meeting in which cobra maintained its previous position that schools should not be closed immediately and were crucial for maintaining front line workforce. She then goes on in her Witness Statement to say even at 4pm on the 17th of march, so the day before this meeting we are looking at, the Welsh Government was still working on the assumption that the best thing to do would be to keep schools open. Are you able to help us understand how the position changed so rapidly since cobra on the 16th Of March still looking at the 16th Of March still looking at the Position Keeping Schools open the Position Keeping Schools open the Welsh Government Working Assumption the day before this meeting, the best thing to do would be to keep schools open and then we have the announcement made on the 18th Of March that in fact schools are going to close early . So we had the understanding that schools are part of transmission because people are moving around and mixing. There are a Primary School or the fact that adults are doing other things will often go and see other things will often go and see other people after that as well. There is the unknown role of older adults and older children in particular and their possible role in transmission. So all these things are known. What we do know is, and it is noted in the minutes, that of schools close, it will be difficult to reopen them. Youve got to rebuild confidence, possibly think about new ways of teaching and learning. And we wanted to keep schools open for things that are highlighted later on. Both the impact on childrens learning and outcomes but also, as i pointed out, regularly, in my statement, that term is not a safe place for every aduu term is not a safe place for every adult and home is not a safe place for every child. Having your children in school means there is greater visibility of what is happening so there is a real safeguarding issue about having schools open. What happened was you had some schools closing because they had staff who are isolated in accordance with our advice, having symptoms and isolating, so some schools could not stay open because they did not have the staff to staff them and in other schools there was a growing group of parents who were anxious and did have a lot of fear for the children which is a rational thing for parents to consider. Is my child better off at home or better off than school . So all of those things were happening and we found that local authorities, from the conversations they were with them, i say we, in the government sense, to then reach an agreed position at w 0j then reach an agreed position at w Oj Leadership level, i think every now and again the reader is described as the chair, it is the leader Andrew Morgan and those conversations with the, agreeing to keep schools open and then individual schools and local authorities break from the pack and what we were finding was a disorder the closing of schools and some authorities were acting. So, again, this is the pace of events from the 16th to the 18th. It was not tenable to schools open so to bring about an orderly conclusion, the decision was made that it was the right decision at the time and i still, looking back, think, taking the decision then was the right thing to do in those circumstances. But it is one of my regret that we could not keep schools open for longer. Some of Thatis Schools open for longer. Some of that is what we knew at the time and a lot of it is what we have subsequently aberrant, peoples prospects for the future. You attended a prospects for the future. You attended a cobra prospects for the future. Gm. Attended a Cobra Meeting on the 20th of march. We do not need the minutes brought up. There was discussion at that meeting, additional social distancing measures such as closing restaurants, bars, theatres, cinemas, nonessential retail. You say in your Witness Statements, paragraph 221, that you agreed with these measures and wanted to see them introduced that night. I suppose the question is this given that there had been substantial reductions by voluntary means, at this stage, and measures had already been introduced, did you consider waiting and allowing more time to see if there is measures that had been introduced on the 16th Of March were to take effect and those would bring the r rate below one. Ida. I bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence was bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence was clear bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence was clear in i bring the r rate below one. No, i think the evidence was clear in the modelling that came from sage and the evidence of, the advice of our Chief Medical Officer had given and indeed chris whitty in opening the Cobra Meeting when he was asked to speak was pretty clear that all things that we had done were not going to stop the growth of covid at that point and more significant measures were needed. There was a discussion about that, then when there is an agreement that Something Else had to be done there was a discussion and it was set out in two to one, i was clear that we needed to one, i was clear that we needed to act as soon as possible. That to one, i was clear that we needed to act as soon as possible. To act as soon as possible. That is what the overall to act as soon as possible. That is what the overall conclusion to act as soon as possible. That is what the overall conclusion was. I what the overall conclusion was. Now, we know that that evening, the 20th of march, the First Minister announced that the Welsh Government would use Public Health powers to close restaurants, pubs, bars and otherfacilities. Day close restaurants, pubs, bars and other facilities. Day after saturday zist other facilities. Day after Saturday 21st Of March i think the Welsh Government was told there would be a Cobra Meeting but that did not in fact go ahead. 22nd Of March Doctor Arthur Deng confirmed other covid related deaths is and that took the total number to 12. I think im right im saying this is sunday 22nd of march, that afternoon you had a meeting with the First Minister and we can see an e mail sending out a number of Action Points following that discussion. So we can see at the bottom that, yes, as discussed with the First Minister, the Minister For Health and social services this afternoon, if we have a look at page two, and i think it is the final, final action point, yes. A Lockdown Plan. That is kilpatrick. To prepare so that we are ready either to respond to the uk government or separately, would i be right to assume at this stage, 22nd of march, there was no Lockdown Plan and what was being suggested here is that kilpatrick and his team would go away and do a first cut of that plan. I would go away and do a first cut of that lan. ~. , would go away and do a first cut of that lan. ~. ,. , that plan. I think a first cut to come back that plan. I think a first cut to come back to that plan. I think a first cut to come back to us that plan. I think a first cut to come back to us because that plan. I think a first cut to come back to us because we. That plan. I think a first cut to i come back to us because we had thought that we are going to go over day before the Lockdown Choice would be made and it did not happen and part of our concern was whether all of the evidence around increasing harm and extraordinary things happening that week that we might get another week of not making a decision and this is more about the Prime Ministers willingness to take the steps required. And so, well, if we were going to do this ourselves. The health minister, the first two waves of the pandemic. Giving evidence all day today. The uk Covid Inquiry which is in cardiff for the final three weeks, to scrutinise the Welsh Governments handling of the pandemic. Well, he is a good attendant to beat waless next First Minister and says is missing whatsapp messages being unavailable to the inquiry is, he says, a matter of real embarrassment. You can keep across all of the developments at the inquiry on the bbc news page there which is continuing to cover his evidence there. He said that the then Prime Minister borisjohnson was scatty, incoherent and rambling when he chaired Cobra Meetings. The total of 10,000, 271 people in wales died due to covid with a further 2299 deaths listing covid as a contributing factor. Youre watching bbc news. You are alive with bbc news. A 25 year old man has pleaded guilty to manslaughter in whats said to be the uks biggest catfish child abuse investigation. Catfishing is when Online Scammers use a fake identity to trick their victims. Alexander mccartney, from newry in Northern Ireland, has admitted more than 180 charges, including the manslaughter of a 12 Year Old Girl who took her own life after being blackmailed by him. I spoke earlier with our ireland correspondent sara girvin who is in belfast and had the latest from court. Following the guilty plea this morning to manslaughter, Alexander Mccartney has also pleaded guilty to more than 185 charges involving 60 victims spread across the uk and around the world as far away as new zealand and america. And we know that all of this came to light back in 2018 when Scottish Police contacted the Police Service of Northern Ireland about the case of a girl who had been befriended by Alexander Mccartney on social media. She had sent him a naked picture and he told her if she didnt do what he asked he would post it online. A search of Alexander Mccartneys home then took place. Devices were seized. And on those devices were thousands of pictures of young girls, some of them clothed, some of them naked, and it was really then that the sheer scale of his offending came to light. We know that it took place over a six year period between 2013 and 2019 and Alexander Mccartney has been in prison on remand since 2019. Today, after he pleaded guilty to manslaughter, a lot of the reporting restrictions that were on this case were lifted and he was told that he will be sentenced in may and thejudge said this had been a complex sentencing exercise. The former conservative Party Deputy Chairman lee anderson has defected to the Populist Party reform uk. He was suspended by the tories last month, for refusing to apologise for comments about londons mayor being controlled by islamists. It means reform uk now has an mp, for the First Time Since it launched in 2018. Lets listen to mr anderson. My opinions are not controversial. They are opinions which are shared by millions of people up and down the country. Its not controversial to be concerned about illegal immigration. Its not controversial to be concerned about legal migration. Its not controversial to be worried or concerned about the metropolitan police. Lets speak to our Political Correspondent peter saull. We have had the action from the Home Secretary about this. Tucker said the reaction and how significant it is for the conservatives to have this defection . Is for the conservatives to have this defection . The first thing to sa is that this defection . The first thing to say is that it this defection . The first thing to say is that it is this defection . The first thing to say is that it is not this defection . The first thing to say is that it is not surprising. I say is that it is not surprising. This is the Third Political party that he is represented in the past six years. It was a Labour Councillor before winning the seat in nottinghamshire for the conservatives in 2019. He was appointed by riches as a deputy chairman of the party but resigned over the governments from under plan and said that it did not go far enough and then were suspended, she said, to do with those comments to do with the muslim mayor of london, suggesting it was somehow controlled by islamist. Hes not apologising for those comments. It is going to going to continue to be straight talking but do it under the banner of reform uk. Over the past fortnight we have had two new mps elected from two brand new parties, really coming to the houses of parliament. George galloway representing the Workers Party of britain and at the complete opposite end of the political spectrum from reform uk and i think the way for the conservatives is that he has a voice in the show and gp news, the right wing news channel and he will continue to speak, as he says, the kinds of issues that he believes millions of voters agree with but the message from tory mps come anyway, if you go to reform that is only going to help out the labour party actually, an opinion that lee anderson himself gave not so recently on gp news. Anderson himself gave not so recently on gp news. Thank you very much indeed thank you very much indeed. Sweden has become the 32nd member of nato, the north atlantic treaty organisation. In brussels, nato secretary general Jens Stoltenberg and swedens Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson took part in a Flag Raising Ceremony to mark the moment. Sweden formally applied to join, along with finland, after russias invasion of ukraine forced the two countries to rethink their National Security policies. Their accession is the most significant expansion of nato in decades. I spoke earlier with Jens Stoltenberg, Secretary General Of Nato on how the us elections could affect the security of nato countries. The us will remain a staunch nato ally. A strong nato is not on the good for europe, it remain good for the United States. We represent 50 of the worlds mate and the United States and nato, something that no other major power has for that that is 31 friends that it makes the United States stronger. Second, there is a broad bipartisan support for nato in the us congress and in the us public based on Opinion Polls and thirdly, the criticism has not mainly been against nato. Their criticism is mainly being against nato allies not spending enough on nato. And the good news is that things have really changed over the past years. More and more allies are now spending 2 or more on defence and by the Summit Injuly i expect two thirds, perhaps even more nato allies will be spending 2 of gdp on defence, showing that, actually, they are investing more in our shared security. Weve talked a lot about the threat of a show there. What about the threat from china . I5 what about the threat from china . Is that something nato should be focusing on as well . We need to realise that security not regional. Security is global. What happens in ukraine matters for asia. What happens in ukraine can happen against taiwan tomorrow. And we also see what happens in asia matters for europe. And we also see how beijing and moscow, china and russia are more and more aligned just days before the full scale invasion back in 2022 to president signed a treaty where they promised each other limitless partnership. We see how china is propping up the russian economy until russia is more and more dependent on china. So these are two sides of the same challenge so when authoritarian powers are coming closer including working more closely with iran and North Korea Thanit closely with iran and north korea than it is even more important that the democratic nation stands together in nato and protect our allies. , ,. , allies. Coming up next it is World Business report. Allies. Coming up next it is World Business report. Do allies. Coming up next it is World Business report. Do stay allies. Coming up next it is World Business report. Do stay with allies. Coming up next it is World Business report. Do stay with us| business report. Do stay with us here on bbc news. It has turned into a pretty grey day across many parts of the uk. It is going to start to feel milder. On the earlier Satellite Picture you can see the extent of the cloud. The cloud produces rain and drizzle in places. A few brighter ellipses. One or two brighter spells elsewhere. Conversely, some slightly more persistent rain putting across the western side of scotland. Exposed to the breeze in the north east. So got them temperatures five, six or seven. Furthersouth them temperatures five, six or seven. Further south up to 12. This evening we will keep a lot of cloud. Mr and american places. A few clear spells but some outbreaks of Rain Swinging in from the west across Northern Ireland into wales, the south west, perhaps getting into north west two. If you do see clear spies it may turn chilly. You can see this frontal system working in the west. Various pulses of moisture. Pulses of rain running along this frontal system. Here is the first one. Pretty wet. Some of that when getting into scotland as well. A little bit drier and brighterfor a time and i think well. A little bit drier and brighter for a time and i think the north of scotland will also see some sunshine at times. Generally a cloudy day but starting to feel milder. 13 in cardiff. 14 in belfast. Through tuesday night and into wednesday these various frontal systems continue to wriggle through. This frontal system here, this cold front will be pushing a little bit further southwards on wednesday. Outbreaks of rain. To the north of it some sunshine. Quite windy and the far north with some scattered showers. To the south of our weather front, a lot of cloud and here it will feel very mild indeed. 15, may be 16 if you do get a little bit of brightness. As we move towards the end of the week, we will see mild air surging northwards. Temperatures may peak on thursday with values up to 16, possibly 17 in parts of eastern england. It does a pretty mild as we head towards the weekend but there will be a fair amount of cloud and some rain at times. Walking away a Us Hedge Fund abandons its bid for currys after two failed approaches. And President Biden unveils his budget plans, as voters digest the us economy ahead of elections later in the year. Welcome to World Business report. Im ben thompson. Us Investment Firm Elliott Advisors has walked away from making