Old ambitions and old aspirations of remaining as an imperialist state. But should we be thinking about what russia wants or what we want . Well, the last time that you came on hardtalk, which was at a time when russia was on the back foot in ukraine, it was the end of 2022. You said you didnt think russia would invade georgia. The situation in ukraine looks very different now. And i wonder if you fear for georgia, particularly if President Putin is successful in ukraine . Well, i think that we should, again, all fear if President Putin is successful in ukraine. But i dont think that he is successful in ukraine. He has been losing in ukraine all his first ambitions, Strategic Ambitions taking kyiv, dividing the government and the population, dividing ukraine from europe, Dividing European between themselves, european with their populations. All of these big ambitions have not materialised. So, yes, hes not yet defeated strategically, militarily, but he is not victorious. So i think that its the time. But he is at this moment in time. To gather efforts. But he is at the moment taking land. And i wonder if theres a situation, and georgia knows this full well, because Russian Troops invaded in 2008, if he retains control of part of ukraine, do you fear what that means for georgia . We all, again, we all have to fear what it means if russia retains land and does not have to retreat in its own internationally recognised borders. But, at the same time, georgia has not been invaded once, georgia has been invaded three times at least, and we can count more. So there is nothing much more that russia has to do. Russia is occupying our territories. Its not a question of separatism. Its a question of directly occupying russias Military Bases on our territory. So what russia is now trying to do, and will continue as it does with other countries in europe and elsewhere, its a hybrid war which has already started. Its trying to win through propaganda, its trying to destabilise. Today, we add another person that has been hijacked in the occupied territories. Its all the time on this non existing border that theyre taking hostages. So the constant attempts to destabilise georgia is something that we know very well. 0k. One thing that we can say is that probably we are a bit more resilient than other countries would be in that situation because of the experience, because the Georgian Population knows quite well. Well, i want to come on, and well talk about the breakaway regions in a moment, butjust in terms of the war in ukraine, russia is building a Deep Sea Port in abkhazia, one of these Breakaway Parts of georgia. President zelensky said, russia announced the creation of a new base, but we will reach them everywhere. That port, could that See Georgia Being dragged into the war . It could. Its a project. Its, again, part of the russian propaganda for the time being, the way mr putin, as an old kgb agent, hes, infact, waging a psychological war more than a military war. And it has been true with ukraine, its true with the rest. Its very important whats happening with this port. And i think that its something that the europeans should realise, because its the black sea that is at stake. Nobody can afford to see russia taking control of this part of the black sea, which is our coast on the black sea, because that means that all the projects for the future that the European Union has with connectivity, strategic transport over the black sea and connection with the rest of. Over the caucasus to the Central Asian countries, that is something that we all need very much, is at stake there. So we need. You talk about it being a psychological game. Theres been dredging there. Do you not think that that sea port will be built . I dont know. Its not for the time being. Its something that is a project that is announced with very loud voices. But what im saying is that we should react to that already now, we shouldnt wait for the port to be coming into function, which will take probably one or two years if they decide to go ahead. Thats now that we need to have the europeans consider that in the black sea, they cannot be evicted by russia. They have to. What can they do about it . Sorry, what are you calling on the eu to do . They have to restart what was happening before, which is the port calls in the black sea, in georgia, especially in the port of batumi, poti. They have to support the creation of anaklia port, where we should see active investment of the European Union and of the americans. It shouldnt be words that we need. Thats not going to stop russia building that port there. Excuse me . Thats not going to stop russia building that port. No, but we should be ahead. What, so that literally they can face off against each other . Well, they are facing off one way or the other. But i think that the determination should be there and seen that European Union considers what it is now that, the black sea is de facto a european sea, where europe has a right to be present, where europe cannot be excluded. And thats something that can be discussed together with turkey, which is a very important partner in the black sea, something that should interest uk. Russia being cut off from the west has led to increased trade with georgia. Theres been a hugejump in imports in the first year of the war. Georgias also the land route from turkey to russia. Is that bringing the two countries together, because georgias even more dependent on russia . Were a bit more dependent towards russia. We are less dependent than many countries have been on energy matters, because we have a close neighbour that is azerbaijan, and that has helped us to avoid this dependency. Were dependent in exports and imports of products, mainly Agricultural Products and some cars, shipments. But it has brought georgia a bit closer to russia. But that doesnt mean that georgia is closer to russia. That will never happen. Because we have the occupied territories, because we have our history, we know how much closer we can get, which was not the case for some of the European Countries that let themselves to be overwhelmed by the Energy Dependency towards russia. 0k. So do you think. . To hear you, one would think you would. Georgia needs to choose betweenjoining nato and the eu on the one hand, and russia on the other. Georgia has chosen. Constantly, since 30 years, the Georgian Population, when asked or when it has to march on the streets, it marches constantly, 80 of the population, and thats a very high percentage, say that it wants europe, it wants nato, and it doesnt want anything else. There is no other perspective for georgia. 0k. But theres a difficulty, which you will be fully aware of, which is that the politicians, despite what the polls suggest, appear to play both sides. And we have the then Prime Minister of the governing party, Georgian Dream, now its chair, irakli garibashvili, said lastjune one of the reasons russia invaded ukraine was ukraines will and determination to become a member of nato. Therefore, we see the consequences. And yet youre making it clear the government has said that it wants to join it. So what would that mean . Governments come and go. The Georgian Populations will has been unchanged over 30 years of independence. It has been unchanged before that, because one of the countries that was the most reticent to the soviet rule was georgia. But if we leave with the recent period, Georgian Population is very determined. And i think that what is important to see is that since the decision of the European Union in december to grant the Candidate Status, the government has changed its rhetoric. The government has changed, the Prime Minister is gone and there is a new Prime Minister who is now with a completely new rhetoric, very pro european, has been to brussels as a first trip. Theyve just swapped places. They have swapped places, but they have swapped. The Prime Minister and the chair. And thats very important. If that forces a consensus, thats fine, and i can only hail that. If not, whichever government will not be definitely on the european side will not win the next elections. But were in a situation where we have the. Hes now chairman of the party saying the European Parliaments been trying to drag georgia into the war against russia. Are you saying thats. . No, im saying that he has said that, hes president of the party, that party is going into elections in october and the Georgian Populations will is unaltered by these declarations. Lets talk about the strange situation, because the truth is that georgia cant join nato, for a start, because of the breakaway regions of abkhazia and South 0ssetia. And thats not going to change, is it . Why is it not going to change . Can you see. . For 30 years, abkhazia and South 0ssetia have been separate. Can you. . Have been occupied. And i can see. I mean, i know some examples. Germany was one. So im never going to say that there is no hope for reuniting not only territories, but populations. And the very big hope, the very clear path towards one form of reunion of these occupied territories is what . Its a european path, its european integration. Butjust wait one second. We should make clear to people what youre talking about, because the georgians, and were talking about a fifth of what was georgia. 20 of our territory. Indeed. Exactly. And there were georgians who were displaced. And now its those two territories, South 0ssetia particularly, extremely dependent on russia. Theres no will to be reunited with georgia in those territories. In South 0ssetia, there is no will. South 0ssetia is a large Military Base with people that are living there, that are basically the people working for the Military Base. So there, i agree, you cannot talk about political will. The case in abkhazia is very different. Abkhazia has been discovering that what russia had promised, which would be to consolidate its identity, to consolidate its language, culture, all of that has not happened. And not only it has not happened, but russia has been putting very heavy pressure to counter what is the political will of the people that are living in abkhazia, which is never to give their lands to russia, never to allow that their sovereignty be contested. And thats what has been happening. But the people of abkhazia may not want to be part of russia, but they dont want to be part of georgia. No, but they might want to be part of European Union together with georgia. So that is the aim eu membership and then. That is the perspective that we can offer to them if they do not see reintegrating. Georgia, as sometimes is said, as a perspective, they can see coming together with us in the European Union as a perspective. So this. But. Since. The eu Candidate Status was granted at the end of last year, can you see a Point At Which Georgia will be an eu member . Certainly, certainly. I think my immediate. Ive lived practically and i came back to georgia as the first diplomat and then the minister and then the president , after having been in the parliament, basically for that. That is my aim and my strong belief. And ive seen georgia going from, when i came back the first time, in europe, it was said that georgia could not even join the Neighbourhood Policy, that we were too far away for that. And ive seen Neighbourhood Policy association, visa liberalisation, all the things that somebody would have thought completely impossible 30 years ago. You talk about the political changes since that status was granted. One of the things that changed is that bidzina ivanishvili, the founder of the governing party Georgian Dream, has said he is back in frontline politics. Now, we should explain. This is a man who is considered by many to be an oligarch, georgias only oligarch. He made a fortune in russia thats estimated to be around a third of the wealth of georgia. There are a number of conditions that the eu has put on georgia. Prominent among them is de oligarchisation. Now, when eu says that, is that who theyre talking about . I will be precise. The eu has put as a condition, a system of prevention of oligarchisation, not what is called. So it doesnt matter that hes back in front. . No, it matters. It matters. Its good thing that hes back in politics, because that takes away this part of shadowiness, which was a very big problem of not knowing where the source of power, of having no responsibility, no. Necessity to be answerable to the population. So i think, personally, that its much better to have him in a clear position, even if hes a wealthy man. And we see that in many other countries that. Theyre not called oligarchs, they are called billionaires that are very influential. What i think is very important. We should be clear about this. In december 2022, the European Parliament called on the eu to sanction him. Well, the European Parliament, and it has not been sanctioned. Thats not the question of power. And the question of system, which is very important, is that we have to put in place the conditions for preventing the oligarch power in the country. And that, i think, is a concern for many other countries than georgia. Where i think is more directly a concern for georgia, if were talking about system of power, is the fact that we are still in a one party system. Thats why its very bad that the vertical of the system, which is a one party system, is one person. 0k. So you are. And we should explain this. I mean, youre president , but its a largely ceremonial role. You have been. The government tried to impeach you. We have elections coming this year. If its largely ceremonial, why did they want to impeach me . Well, 0k. Why did they want to . I will answer. I will. What is your answer to that question . My answer is the same as gutierrez when he was asked, what is your power . And he answered, its the word, its speaking. And thats the same thing. In a country, when you have a word that is recognised, that you are legitimate, because i was elected by the people, you can say many things and you can be very influential. So probably it was more of a political attempt to limit. We have elections this year. What does that mean, then, for the elections . What are you planning to do . Im first planning to play my role as the president to the end, because i think that this institute, as an independent institute, has a very big role to play. To be on one side, and i intend to do that, to oversee the way the elections are going to be prepared and handled. The second thing i want to see what the government, who is now promising to do everything thats needed by the nine recommendations. There are now nine left of the European Union. I will see and push so that they are doing their part of the work. Will you vote for them . At the same time. Im not going to tell you who im going to vote for. But youre not going to stand. For elections . Yes. In the elections, no, im not going to go down in the political arena. I am the president. My mandate goes until the election. Let me ask you do you trust Georgian Dream to maintain and improve the democracy in georgia . They have to. Otherwise, the georgian. Do you trust them to . They dont have to be trusted. If they do not do it, if they do not deliver in the timeframe that has been given by the European Union, the georgian people are not going to vote for them. And thats the reason why they have changed the rhetoric. Thats the reason why they are now saying that theyre going to do Everything Possible to put in action these nine recommendations. Well see. Im going to be like the georgian voter. Ill look at what has been done. But at the same time, im working with all other Political Parties to prepare a platform that would be the platform that would be put into action by whoever comes into the parliament at the next elections. And i would wish that it be a coalition government. Why . Because i think the time has come for georgia, which has gone a long way towards democracy, to move from a one party system that is a legacy of the old times to a coalition government. You talk about the powers that you have as president. One of them is to be involved in what happens next to mikheil saakashvili, who is in prison. He is. The pictures of him show that he has been incredibly ill. I mean, they are quite shocking. Should he still be in prison . Well, i think that saakashvili is not navalny. And these comparisons that we hear. He compares. Hes georgias former leader. Hes georgias former leader that is injail because of the things that he has been doing when he was a president , not as a political opponent, but as a former president. So the answer to my question, should he still be in prison . I think that its not for me to judge whether he should be in prison or not. Its for thejudges, for the Georgian Population. But the fact is that the Georgian Population, in its vast majority, consider that he has been, while he was the president of georgia, overdoing his power in many, many. Respects. And thats why hes in jail. Now, on the humanitarian side that you were talking about, i have been very involved in overseeing what was happening to him, trying to make sure that the treatment that were delivered were. There are reports that hes been tortured and has been poisoned. Do you believe that . No. You absolutely dont believe that . I dont. And you say its down to the courts and down to the people, but you have a role and you have been pressed. Ive been pressed. And the more im pressed, the more difficult it will get, because i cannot accept that the discretionary power of pardoning, which belongs to the president and which is the fate also of many other people that are in jail, in very different conditions, i cannot accept that its put under pressure either from within or from outside. So the Pardoning Power is something that is my moral decision, which i will take without informing anyone in advance. Which is why you have ref. You told hardtalk you wouldnt pardon him. Then in an interview with Radio Free Europe in mid december, you said, ive not refused to pardon him. Its still a question mark. Its a question mark. The former Us Ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul, said that saakashvilis death in jail would be a victory for putin and a blow to georgian democracy. Is he right . I dont think he will die in prison. Im trying to and i will oversee until the end that this doesnt happen, because i agree that that would be a terrible blow for georgias reputation, which we cannot let happen. Thats why i was in daily contact with all the authorities involved, to be sure that nothing of that kind would be happening. But at the same time, there are other ways. The government is directly responsible, thejustice minister. The possibility of extradition is still there. Ukraine and poland have said theyll take him. Yeah. So thats the governments responsibility. Is that the route you think will happen . It might. Just a final thought. Were talking about georgia because of geography, because of politics being almost at a pivot point. Is that how you see it with the elections coming up this year, that these elections are critical to the future of georgia . It is certainly a very decisive year. But at the same time, when i look back, i think i must have said that almost every year, because we are living, really, since independence, an almost yearly existential situation where we never know next year what will be the situation. Thats why we have to be so determined and so united. Salome zourabichvili, thank you for coming on hardtalk. Already . Already. Thank you very much for having me. Hello. We did have a bit of spring sunshine around on sunday, but the clear skies are lasting through the night. The winds are fairly light, too, so temperatures are really dropping. Its going to be quite a chilly start to your monday morning could be A Touch Of Frost and some mist and fog patches. They should clear away. Therell be a bit more rain moving into the southwest later on in the day, but for most of us, its going to be a fine, bright, chilly start. Some fog, perhaps the vale of york, the welsh marches, central, Southern England as well that clearing away by around the middle of the morning. Theres the rain thats going to push into the southwest of england into wales by around about lunchtime. A few splashes of rain arriving across Northern Ireland later in the afternoon. But generally further north and east, you should stay dry for a good part of the day and temperatures will range between around 7 12 degrees. Now, moving into monday evening, thats when the patchy rain pushes its way further eastwards across parts of england, Eastern Scotland as well, tending to fizzle out a bit as it does so. Itll be another fairly chilly night as we head into Tuesday Morning for some parts of wales, central and Southern England as well, but not as cold as the current night. Now, as we move through monday night into tuesday, then this area of low pressure, this Weather Front continues to drift its way eastwards, but its tending to fizzle out. So, i think early tuesday, we are likely to see a bit of cloud and patchy light rain for Eastern England and Eastern Scotland. Once that clears away, sunny spells for most. A little bit more cloud and a few showers in the west around some of these irish sea coasts. But reasonably light winds, temperatures not doing too badly up to around about 8 12 degrees, so pretty typical for this stage in early march. And, then as we look towards the middle of the week, then, were going to see High Pressure sitting across scandinavia. Weather fronts try and move in from the atlantic, but as they bump into that area of High Pressure, theyre not going to make too many inroads. So, for wednesday, perhaps some showery rain moving into the Far Southwest of england, perhaps Northern Ireland, a little bit breezy here. But for much of the british isles, i think things are looking dry and settled. Again, some Early Morning mist, frost and fog possible, clearing away to leave sunny spells and thankfully a dry spell of weather with highs around about 8 12 for most of us. So, as we look towards the middle part of the week, into thursday and friday, plenty of dry weather. Could be odd spots of rain, particularly towards the west. Temperatures fairly typical of the time of year, and i think many of us will be pleased to see this quieter spell of weather through the week ahead. Bye bye. Live from london. This is bbc news negotiations for a pause in the fighting in Gaza Hit A Road block after israel says it wont attend talks in cairo. Haiti in a State Of Emergency after armed gang carry out two majorjail breaks, Freeing Thousands of inmates. Three american astronauts and one russian cosmonaut, blast off on a journey to the International Space station. And coming up later in business, the uk chancellor hints at tax cuts, ahead of wednesdays budget. Hello and welcome to the programme. Negotiations for a six week ceasefire in the israel gaza war have hit a major road block. Members of hamas are in cairo, alongside international mediators, but israel says it wont attend the meeting until hamas provides it with a list of hostages still alive. Hamas took 253 hostages when gunmen launched an attack on october 7. It says it cant provide the information, because of israels subsequent bombardment, and blockade, of the territory. It comes as International Pressure mounts for a truce. Us Vice President , kamala harris, is the latest World Leader Calling for a pause, and for more aid to be allowed in