in fact the longest serving conservative defence secretary ever, ben wallace, who stepped down from his job in the summer citing the cost of what he said was putting work and country ahead of my family. a member of the government in some form ever since the conservatives came to power in 2010, he can now reflect on what he's learned about politics and about defence as he prepares for a life outside westminster. ben wallace, welcome to political thinking. thank you. we are speaking a few hours after the chancellor unveiled what he called his largest ever tax cut for workers. if you were running at the next election, would you be preparing for a spring election? no. i would probably be waiting for september. i think it is a good autumn statement. jeremy has gone on the right place around national insurance, effectively rewarding effort, work and trying people who we need to generate wealth and pay tax receipts so we can have more to spend and grow the economy. i think he has done the right thing. but i also recognise that i am one of them, 42% of people who have mortgages this year renegotiating their mortgages. so interest rates are going to be a really important factor in the election next year on the timetable so i think if rishi can show growth which the statement will do, if that is then added to potentially falling interest rates, it puts us on the best position for an election. you will not be fighting the next election. you are retiring from parliament as well as cabinet. how does it feel to be a soon—to—be ex politician? it feels quite nice. i started in 1999 in the scottish parliament, of the few conservatives elected. i used tojoke it i used to joke it was like i used tojoke it was like being behind the enemy lines. you know from scottish politics. you know from scottish politics. certainly in 1997, we don't have a tory mp, we were wiped off the face of the political scene in scotland, we did not have a council. slightly out of naivety, i turn up aged 28. no one could understand why anyone wanted to be conservative in 1998 in scotland. it has been a long slog. it has been a fascinating window on history, the first scottish parliament, the first msp. i learnt my trade. i sat on select committees where there were 15 members and one conservative. and i learned there are some decent people. yet the last seven years have been extremely high pressure, security minister first of all then defence secretary. defence secretary during the biggest, most significant since world war ii inside europe. living with that pressure, how has that been? some of that has been fine because i was in the army so i have lived with some of those kinds of issues. security minister, i used to go home at the end of the week and i had read dozens of pages of threat about who's going to try and kill who, who is going to bomb who and who's going to steal from him because i had organised crime. you get used to it to it but it was always there, it was always in the background. three phones by the bed. well as security minister i remember being woken up one in the morning when manchester arena had happened, i was the minister during the 2017 london terror attacks. london bridge, but a market, westminster, parsons green. and then skripal, then the cyber attacks. it was always happening. it made it hard to switch off when you came home because there was not a home. i remember going out to supper with friends once and i was told, we think there is going to be an attempt at a bombing at a sporting event, the americans have told us about something. you're sitting at supper with a whole load of other people, looking at your phone wondering if it is going to happen or not. luckily it did not. and fearing that the phone will ring? yes. fear is probably the wrong word but our intelligence services do amazing work at making sure plots never actually materialise. very few people know about that. so every time, every year you hear in a statement where the director—general of m15 says we have frustrated x number of the plots. there are members of the media who tot them up because there were 13 or 1a. but actually there are dozens that never make it, never get to their maturity. it is all out there. when you did write that letter of resignation to the prime minister, you say i have dedicated myself to serving my country as a soldier as well as a politician. that dedication you wrote comes at a personal toll to me and my family. yeah, politics, nick you are one of them, you are a fellow addict. it is an addiction. whether we like it or not it crwods us out over other lives. michael gove�*s ex wife wrote a lovely article about michael, michael is in love with politics. in the end the mistress wins. the issue is that you're never switched off, partly on thosejobs i did, security and defence, it was constantly linked to the operations around the world and other people's lives you are responsible for and also it is politics. so the toll was 17 years of going down to london monday to thursday or friday, you drift apart and it is very difficult and then when you get home you're home but no home because your mind is elsewhere or your phone is by your bed. so that has taken a toll. i am looking forward and i am enjoying that going. i am enjoying being able to re—engage much more with my children and liza, my wife, we are separated but we are not divorced. who knows where that will go. but yeah, it takes its toll. the temptation if you are addicted is you put the family last. and also when it is about defending the nation and people will care about, it ultimately becomes quite personal. i remember i would sometimes fly into a country where i knew there was a bomb somewhere in the airport or there was a plot and no one had caught the bomber and you will be flying into that country both hoping that the local intelligence services were good at theirjob knew what no one else knew on the plane. i think i learned that early on, way back when i ran out the gate at west belfast at the base and thought, you know what sometimes it's going to happen or it's not. it could be your turn. it could be. so, but i take pride in that yes, it would cost me but this is a great country, there are some really great people of all political parties who want this country to remain safe and secure. and to get that tiny chance to do that and contribute as a privilege. we will talk more about that. that there is sometimes in politics and indeed nadine dorries a former cabinet colleague of yours has written a book which plenty of people have laughed at, the idea of a grand plot to bring down borisjohnson but a lot of people i know say what she describes as the poison in politics, that is right and true. so that is true. there is too much poison in politics and it has been growing over the last 15, 20 years. it is not acceptable, especially when we want more people to get into and we want people to get into it. if you read between the lines of her book, whether you believe in a plot or not, ultimately she was saying people use rumour and gossip and smearfar too much when you shouldn't use it at all in our politics. you fasced it when there was talk of you running to be leader. yes, people were making up all sorts of things. that happened to all my other colleagues. you'll only have to talk to some of my other colleagues who find journalists going through their bins, it became the currency. i listen to the dominic cummings stuff, i havejust been moving my office and i look at the daily telegraph of february 2020, there is a headline, wallace fights for hisjob in reshuffle. which wasn't true. but that was forced by some of those people at number ten. i have kept that newspaper because i've also got one for november 2020 which says the beginning of the end for dominic cummings at number ten. are they up together? yes, they are. because ultimately these people trade on this. the sort of unseen people in politics, the political of gossip and smear and nastiness. that is not healthy for our politics. pretty much everybody has heard of dominic cummings if they are interested in politics. almost nobody outside the conservative party have heard of dougie smith. i have never met him. but nadine dorries says he told borisjohnson to his face, if you don't go i am going to take you down, i will finish you off. does he have that sort of power? i have never met him. i think dominic cummings admitted in his own blog or whatever that he had started to want to remove boris as soon as got into number ten. i think that shows the power or the effort that some of these unelected officials go to. but i used to say to myjunior ministers and to my civil servants, these people may have power if you give it to them. when i first became a defence secretary i don't have a special adviser, not for months because i knew dominic cummings and his gang used special advisers to try and bully officials and the rest of the department. if i don't have one, he would have to ring me up and he never did. the big challenge, as i mentioned, was the ukraine war you were at the centre. you met zelensky once before in ukraine and kyiv. yes, i have been a few times as security minister. the skripal was for me the real beginning of this. this is where russia had changed from a vladimir putin that everyone had hoped back in 99 or something had taken a decision to use nerve agent in the streets of britain. that is a big call for anyone. it is illegal. it isa it is a nato country and it murdered people, it could have murdered more. ukraine have lost 18,000 people already before 2014, that frozen boundary. so i had been already a few times. i met a lot of intelligence services as it was then andindeed intelligence services as it was then and indeed understood what was going on. so i met zelensky, i met him when he was elected, i had been before he was elected and i hosted and once when he came over. he was, he is a very earnest, straight, decent, modern man. hat he is a very earnest, straight, decent, modern man. not some oliuarch decent, modern man. not some oligarch type- — decent, modern man. not some oligarch type. yet _ decent, modern man. not some oligarch type. yet the _ decent, modern man. not some i oligarch type. yet the conventional wisdom was the one problem ukraine has got as he is not up to it. i cannot remember whether it was the wall streetjournal or the economist, the opinion was the leadership of ukraine was weak. did you think war was imminent back in 2021? it did not happen until february 22. 2021? it did not happen until february 22— 2021? it did not happen until february 22. 2021? it did not happen until februa 22. ., ., ., ., february 22. no, no, ithought war war is imminent. _ february 22. no, no, ithought war war is imminent. in _ february 22. no, no, ithought war war is imminent. in april— february 22. no, no, ithought war war is imminent. in april2021, - february 22. no, no, ithought war war is imminent. in april 2021, the russians had a big exercise in life lots of equipment not far from ukraine. it was about that time i wrote to borisjohnson and said, we have to help arm ukraine, we have to give them hope. i believe this is going to happen and that was when boris said, i wrote to him in secret and said i want to explore arming them with short and to take weapons —— anti—tank weapons and strategic weapons. he said ok let us go to the next step, talk to the americans. we had to do it because the institutions didn't want to do it, don't think it will happen, did not think there would be an invasion so it was way before.— it was way before. what institutions? _ it was way before. what institutions? the - it was way before. what - institutions? the intelligence services? do you mean m16 and the foreign office? services? do you mean mig and the foreign office?— services? do you mean m16 and the foreign office?— foreign office? some of the mandarins _ foreign office? some of the mandarins were _ foreign office? some of the mandarins were against - foreign office? some of the mandarins were against it i foreign office? some of the i mandarins were against it and thought it would provoke vladimir putin. the debate was, i would say the game is afoot, britain has already started playing chess, you can pretend the game has not started but it has and that is when it started. ., , ., , started. you did it. this x scots uuard started. you did it. this x scots guard used _ started. you did it. this x scots guard used a — started. you did it. this x scots guard used a code _ started. you did it. this x scots guard used a code name. - started. you did it. this x scots guard used a code name. it - started. you did it. this x scots - guard used a code name. it showed at the time how — guard used a code name. it showed at the time how we _ guard used a code name. it showed at the time how we had _ guard used a code name. it showed at the time how we had been _ guard used a code name. it showed at the time how we had been training - the time how we had been training alongside the swedish, canadians and americans the ukrainians in capacity building post—2014. but we did not have all those secure comms you would need so because we did not have secure columns, i would speak to my ukrainian counterpart and i pick names of whisky for different types of systems. you pick names of whisky for different types of systems-— pick names of whisky for different types of systems. you can take a boy out of scotland! _ types of systems. you can take a boy out of scotland! second, _ types of systems. you can take a boy out of scotland! second, when - types of systems. you can take a boy out of scotland! second, when i - types of systems. you can take a boyj out of scotland! second, when i went to ukraine. — out of scotland! second, when i went to ukraine. we _ out of scotland! second, when i went to ukraine, we would _ out of scotland! second, when i went to ukraine, we would sit _ out of scotland! second, when i went to ukraine, we would sit and - out of scotland! second, when i went to ukraine, we would sit and drink. to ukraine, we would sit and drink whisky together. so the anti—tank weapon, i chose glenn for duck. then for harpoon, i chose islay because it is down to the islands so i would text and say i am going to send you —— glenfiddich. it was the last roll of the jet base —— it was the last roll of the device to say do not do it, everyone had been engaged, macron, but it was pretty clear they were going to do it. hope macron, but it was pretty clear they were going to do it.— were going to do it. how direct are ou, do were going to do it. how direct are you. do you _ were going to do it. how direct are you. do you hint — were going to do it. how direct are you, do you hint and _ were going to do it. how direct are you, do you hint and nudge - were going to do it. how direct are you, do you hint and nudge or- were going to do it. how direct are you, do you hint and nudge or say| you, do you hint and nudge or say you, do you hint and nudge or say you are, we know what you're up to. i had a script. you always get a script for all others. i take a view, what is my mind and what do we need to do and this script really reflects that. i am pretty direct, i said i do not want anyone to die, i do not want russians to die. i think they were not quite ready for that and then they lied and said they are not going to invade ukraine and when they did that i knew they were going to do it. it was a lie that was clear they were going to do it. they went to the exchange of gifts. i knew what they were going to do because of the way they had been behaving so when it came to my gift i gave them a bottle of glenfiddich and the last laugh is on them. what and the last laugh is on them. what is our and the last laugh is on them. what is yourjudgment — and the last laugh is on them. what is yourjudgment tell _ and the last laugh is on them. what is yourjudgment tell you _ and the last laugh is on them. what is yourjudgment tell you now? the ukrainians worried about being bogged down, a general said it is like the first world war in trenches, no one moving. many people will say that the west is massively diced —— distracted by what's happening in the middle east, why don't we wait for donald trump who will go to russia and see what do you want? will go to russia and see what do ou want? ~ ~ . ., , ., you want? well ukrainians have their own view of — you want? well ukrainians have their own view of their _ you want? well ukrainians have their own view of their freedom, _ you want? well ukrainians have their own view of their freedom, not - you want? well ukrainians have their own view of their freedom, not what | own view of their freedom, not what donald trump thinks if he is an ex—president. first of all, we should not forget that russia has lost. russia is isolated, putin is diminished in the world. russia has cut off its biggest customer, customers are not buying its gas any more and it has to sell at discounts to and china. so russia is lesser. its army is decimated with hundreds of thousands of dead and injured russian soldiers. that equipment has been blown to smithereens and i do not think it will be a road back for putin anywhere, who will invite him to any g7 summits? his last remaining assumption that he is yet to have this proved is that the international community are fickle and get bored. actions are quite different. we remember the row about whether poland should getjet's and deny you can. but actually the international committee is forward leaning, yes america has issues, biden is very pro helping you can. to be honest, a large proportion, a majority of republicans are pro—ukraine. the problem is you hear from the trump camp but you don't hear from the from the trump camp but you don't hearfrom the wider camp. from the trump camp but you don't hear from the wider camp. the from the trump camp but you don't hearfrom the wider camp. the reason most american lawmakers are in favour is that ukraine matters because china is watching. in a sense, if the _ because china is watching. in a sense, if the west _ because china is watching. in a sense, if the west buckles, china will think we can move on taiwan? yes, ukraine matters because it is a test for the west and there is a long story in chinese history but in the end china will want to know if it is going to opt for military reunification of taiwan, that if it chooses a military path, president xijinping will want to know chooses a military path, president xi jinping will want to know that he will guarantee to be successful and be able to survive the post—military invasion aftermath and that is all about resolve so you cannot have it both ways, mr trump. you cannot talk about china and think you will do a deal on ukraine because ultimately you will expose lack of resolve. i5 you will expose lack of resolve. is gaza a test of their waste resolve as well. for the israelis this is about iranian sponsored terrorism has to be defeated. for others it is about the history of conflict in the middle east and palestinian rights. but should western leader see gaza as a test of resolve? i but should western leader see gaza as a test of resolve?— as a test of resolve? i think you should see _ as a test of resolve? i think you should see it _ as a test of resolve? i think you should see it another— as a test of resolve? i think you should see it another way, - as a test of resolve? i think you should see it another way, you | should see it another way, you should see it another way, you should see it another way, you should see gaza as a consequence of failing to see something way back in 2020 and earlier, the west gave up on the two state solution. they lost —— saying the oslo accords have not worked out, let us look at something else. you could argue ultimately that if you do not invest in capabilities in your defence and intelligence services and you do not invest in finding a political tract out of these things, do not be surprised when the lead pops. == lid. you are a terrorist organisation because of the message you choose and that is the case with hamas. we cannot turn our back on a two state solution and expect not something to happen in five or ten years. it is about resolve, we were not result back at the turn—of—the—century, if we are not resolved on ukraine then the west should not be surprised at what happens in the pacific. mi what happens in the pacific. all these things we talked about lead some people to say it is the beginning of a third world war, not hopefully that our children end up fighting it but there will be conflict all over the world which is to do with trying to knock america off its perch. you have consistently just said —— said therefore we have to spend more money. you have been robust, the economist said mr wallace at times sounds like an opposition politician attacking the ministry of defence. you're having a go. do you still feel it is a struggle to get the money you need to get it well spent? yes. struggle to get the money you need to get it well spent?— to get it well spent? yes. all politicians — to get it well spent? yes. all politicians have _ to get it well spent? yes. all politicians have to _ to get it well spent? yes. all politicians have to be - to get it well spent? yes. all i politicians have to be credible. to get it well spent? yes. all. politicians have to be credible. it is not credible to pretend that the last 35 years have not happened in defence funding. i can show you charts from 1991, defence spending under both labour and conservative have declined. some of it was logical but the problem is it was the go to pot to raid when governments want to spend more on health or whatever gimmick they want to do at the time. it used to be described as corporate raiding, we cut defence by 7%. if you want to deter people, you need to have a strong defence offering and if you want to be part of an alliance like alliant —— analyse you need to play your part. alliant -- analyse you need to play our art. ., ., . your part. you needed to get dominic cumminus your part. you needed to get dominic cummings to — your part. you needed to get dominic cummings to overrule _ your part. you needed to get dominic cummings to overrule boris - your part. you needed to get dominic cummings to overrule boris johnson. | cummings to overrule borisjohnson. rishi did in the end. in the end. he: recognises now. the last autumn statement and in a number of his statements, both he and the chancellor recognise the need for more defence spending. the biggest challenge was about culture, changing the culture where defence has been for so long some sort of discretionary spend is like buying a set of curtains when you have money left over as opposed to a core function of a political government, any government. let function of a political government, any government.— any government. let us reflect on the 13 years _ any government. let us reflect on the 13 years you — any government. let us reflect on the 13 years you were _ any government. let us reflect on the 13 years you were part - any government. let us reflect on the 13 years you were part of- any government. let us reflect on the 13 years you were part of this | the 13 years you were part of this conservative led government. now you are able to look back, yet left the cabinet and leaving parliament as well, what with the ben wallace now tell the ben wallace then about what you should have done differently? it is a marathon not a sprint so when you arrive as a young politician, all of us really are there trying to make a difference. it sounds corny but we are. you know, everyone wants to be the foreign secretary or the defence secretary of the prime minister. i did not but everyone does. but actually, enjoy what is in front of you, whatever that is. because actually, the privilege of affecting people's lives in trying to help them is unique and very few people get that chance. some colleagues are very lucky, some get one chance, do not waste that chance. do not waste it on self promotion or thinking about the next job, just do what is in front of you and enjoy it and take fulfilment out of it. i could stand down because i felt fulfilled. i felt i of it. i could stand down because i felt fulfilled. ifelt i had met of it. i could stand down because i felt fulfilled. i felt i had met the challenges, i had moved defence to the centre of cultural debate about it is acceptable to defend, the threat is real. we had seen off the enemy and made differences. you cannot do that forever, as wonderful as democracy is, time to go but ultimately recognised privileged to have that chance and do not worry, not everyone becomes prime minister. it does not really matter. does that —— has that desire going? you wanted to be secretary—general of nato, the americans kiboshed that. that to be secretary-general of nato, the americans kiboshed that.— to be secretary-general of nato, the americans kiboshed that. at the time the fli . ht americans kiboshed that. at the time the flight -- — americans kiboshed that. at the time the flight -- the _ americans kiboshed that. at the time the flight -- the front _ americans kiboshed that. at the time the flight -- the front runner- americans kiboshed that. at the time the flight -- the front runner was - the flight —— the front runner was the flight —— the front runner was the prime minister of holland so there was a sort of vacancy. i didn't go into politics to become secretary general of nato and my day is not any worse because i am not likely to do it. i think we should all reflect. to have the opportunity to do what you want to do and feel fulfilled, that will do me. ben wallace, thank _ fulfilled, that will do me. ben wallace, thank you _ fulfilled, that will do me. ben wallace, thank you for - fulfilled, that will do me. ben wallace, thank you forjoining me on political thinking. after another week in which we learned the toxic contents of what sa ps week in which we learned the toxic contents of what saps and how ministers and special advisers abused each other, it is worth pausing to reflect on the fact that the man who was dismissed as wally by the most powerful adviser in the land went on to become the most popular minister amongst conservative activists, a man who probably could have been conservative leader if he had wanted to be. thanks for watching. hello. 0ur chilly spell of late autumn weather is going to continue through the rest of today and for much of the week ahead as well with temperatures below average. we have seen some early brightness around across northern and eastern areas, but through the rest of today, it is going to be clouding over for most of us with rain edging its way in, all courtesy of this area of low pressure, you can see coming in from the atlantic, bumping into higher pressure towards the south east, so any rainfall tending to peter out. best of the dry and bright weather will be across parts of highland scotland. blue skies and sunshine here, colder air moving into the northern isles with some showers. and then we've got some rain across northern ireland, wales, the south west of england, to much of eastern england as well as scotland stays dry with some brightness around. but temperatures not doing great, only about four to six degrees for most of us here. but we're getting into double figures towards the west. now, through this evening and tonight, that area of rain continues its progress eastwards. so some wet weather for parts of east anglia, for instance, also northern england, parts of northern ireland seeing some rain overnight, colderairworking into the north of that. so another cold, frosty night to come across parts of scotland, but milder further south where you've got the cloud and the outbreaks of rain. so through tomorrow morning we start with that rain across parts of england and wales. it'll slowly clear towards the south east. to the north of that cold northerly wind, blustery conditions around coastal parts of eastern scotland, northeast england with a few showers, a touch wintry over the highest ground, but rain at low levels further south and west. some brighter weather developing later in the day. heading on into tuesday, and we're going to be between weather systems as that area of low pressure clears away towards the east. so we've got the breeze coming in from a northerly direction, again, bringing a few showers across the north east of scotland, around the east coast of england, and perhaps a few around some of these irish sea coasts as well. but for the bulk of the uk it's looking like a predominantly dry day on tuesday with some sunshine, although not feeling particularly warm. top temperatures between about four to nine degrees on tuesday. into the middle of the week. then we've still generally got the cold air mass with us, but we'll see areas of low pressure that for a time we'll introduce something a little bit milder and wetter too. but generally the outlook through the rest of the week into next weekend, as well as temperatures to remain below average, between about four to six degrees for most of us. some wet weather, mostly falling as rain, i think for most of us. but there could be a little bit of sleet and snow over the highest ground, largely in the north of the uk. bye— bye. live from london, this is bbc news after an agonising delay, late—night hostage and prisoner exchanges take place between israel and hamas. a second group of hostages leave hamas captivity — 13 israelis and four thai nationals are freed. 39 palestinians were later freed from israeli detention. six of them are women, 33 of them children, some had been detained for years. this is the scene in gaza — where a temporary truce seems to be holding — a further exchange of hostages and prisoners expected today. in other news — rescue work to save 41 workers trapped in a tunnel in india is delayed because of damage to machinery. hello, i'm lewis vaughanjones. welcome to the programme. hamas has freed another 13 israelis who were taken hostage during the attacks on october 7th. they are all women, teenagers and young children. four thai nationals were also released. 39 palestinians have been freed from israeli jails in return. the handover was delayed for hours by a dispute over whether israel was abiding by the terms of the deal reached with hamas. among the hostages released was the irish—israeli girl, emily hand, who's nine. emily, was initially thought to have been among those killed in the attack on kibbutz be'eri. this is the moment she was reunited with herfather, tom. emily was at a sleepover at a friend's