later in this e—mail we can see first of all the paragraph and a page you say, "my concern is at the moment the working environment culture is too much egotistical. " it would get the best outcomes and in the paragraph above, —— won't. you made the causative point that there are areas of policy that are suffering, you refer to domestic abuse and abortion. i will come back to some of those issues a little while but perhaps it is important to make it clear now you wantjust, it would have been important anyway to make the point that the treatment was bad but you felt there were real consequences of that treatment at the time. , , ., . , ., the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to _ the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to thing _ the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to thing out _ the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to thing out carried - the time. yes, in my hierarchy of concerns to thing out carried the | concerns to thing out carried the very most— concerns to thing out carried the very most about was whether we were putting _ very most about was whether we were putting our _ very most about was whether we were putting our best effort into trying to tackle — putting our best effort into trying to tackle with the country was faced with and _ to tackle with the country was faced with and i— to tackle with the country was faced with and i felt this particular set of attitudes and behaviours was getting — of attitudes and behaviours was getting in the way, as well as finding — getting in the way, as well as finding out personally not right. if finding out personally not right. if we finding out personally not right. we can finding out personally not right. if we can look back at the first page... i think we will see other people replied, let me ask you, did you get many responses to this e—mail? i you get many responses to this e-mail? ~' , ,., , , e-mail? i think everybody replied. what was the _ e-mail? i think everybody replied. what was the term? _ e-mail? i think everybody replied. what was the term? they - e-mail? i think everybody replied. what was the term? they were - e-mail? i think everybody replied. | what was the term? they were glad e-mail? i think everybody replied. i what was the term? they were glad i had raised it — what was the term? they were glad i had raised it and _ what was the term? they were glad i had raised it and gave _ what was the term? they were glad i had raised it and gave me _ had raised it and gave me useful examples — had raised it and gave me useful examples and said they would do what they could _ examples and said they would do what they could to help. this examples and said they would do what they could to help.— they could to help. this is mid aril, so they could to help. this is mid april. so it _ they could to help. this is mid april, so it would _ they could to help. this is mid april, so it would have - they could to help. this is mid april, so it would have been . they could to help. this is mid l april, so it would have been one they could to help. this is mid - april, so it would have been one of the steps that led to the review. yes although i don't think i would have _ yes although i don't think i would have seen— yes although i don't think i would have seen it like that at the time, i have seen it like that at the time, hust— have seen it like that at the time, ijust wanted to fix this particular problem — ijust wanted to fix this particular problem that i could see in front of me. �* ., , .., problem that i could see in front of me. �* ., , , me. but on this document we can see one of the people _ me. but on this document we can see one of the people who _ me. but on this document we can see one of the people who responded - me. but on this document we can see one of the people who responded was catherine hammond, a very senior civil servant in the cabinet contingencies secretariat. she said, "sadly i 100% agree this is an issue. those good she makes some proposals there. just moving on i wanted to ask you, apart from seeking people's views and we have also mentioned the review that you conducted, what further steps were taken to address this problem? you refer in your statement to the fact that just raising the issue helped but perhaps didn't change the fundamentals. did this problem go away or not?- this problem go away or not? know, but raising it — this problem go away or not? know, but raising it as _ this problem go away or not? know, but raising it as an _ this problem go away or not? know, but raising it as an issue _ this problem go away or not? know, but raising it as an issue and - but raising it as an issue and talking — but raising it as an issue and talking about it collectively helps peopie _ talking about it collectively helps people to feel more clear about the fact that _ people to feel more clear about the fact that it— people to feel more clear about the fact that it was ok for them individually to raise a concern. after— individually to raise a concern. after sending this e—mail in a number— after sending this e—mail in a numberof— after sending this e—mail in a number of conversations i then spoke to quite _ number of conversations i then spoke to quite a _ number of conversations i then spoke to quite a lot of people individually whose behaviour had been _ individually whose behaviour had been highlighted about what had been said and _ been highlighted about what had been said and a _ been highlighted about what had been said and a lot of those people then moderated their behaviour. i think in that— moderated their behaviour. i think in that footnote that didn't make it to the _ in that footnote that didn't make it to the final report, there is sometimes a gap between, they were very serious, these men, that they were _ very serious, these men, that they were worried about the sexism, yet they had _ were worried about the sexism, yet they had also sometimes done it, sometimes a consequence of working under— sometimes a consequence of working under pressure but once the issue was highlighted, lots of people changed but it didn't change the overall. — changed but it didn't change the overall, no. changed but it didn't change the overall. no— changed but it didn't change the overall, no. ., , , ., , , overall, no. perhaps related issue is the availability _ overall, no. perhaps related issue is the availability of _ overall, no. perhaps related issue is the availability of counselling. l is the availability of counselling. . if we can look, please, this is a document of tab 43, we move forward in the chronology a little bit, we are now in mid—june. this is an e—mail you sent to someone called carol bernard. you were there again drawing on your experience from the ground floor and no doubt to support you give to your staff in the aftermath. we can see what you have said. you talk about people breaking down in tears and trying to obtain some counselling for them. was that successful? ., some counselling for them. was that successful? ida. why not? some counselling for them. was that successful?- why not?— successful? no. why not? i am not sure i successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can — successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer _ successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer that. _ successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer that. it _ successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer that. it is - successful? no. why not? i am not sure i can answer that. it is of - sure i can answer that. it is of profound _ sure i can answer that. it is of profound cause of regret to me that we weren't— profound cause of regret to me that we weren't able to better support peopie _ we weren't able to better support people and i should just be really clear. _ people and i should just be really clear. i— people and i should just be really clear. i am — people and i should just be really clear, lam not in people and i should just be really clear, i am not in any way the hierarchy— clear, i am not in any way the hierarchy of people who more measurable times and had awful things— measurable times and had awful things happening in their lives and peopie _ things happening in their lives and people who had to deal with people dyin- people who had to deal with people dying from covid were busy dealing with something much worse and profound — with something much worse and profound. what i am talking about here is _ profound. what i am talking about here is that it is very difficult ireing — here is that it is very difficult ireing a — here is that it is very difficult being a central government in any case in _ being a central government in any case in these sorts of situations, never— case in these sorts of situations, never mind — case in these sorts of situations, never mind when you add all the externalities these people were dealing — externalities these people were dealing with. i do think it is a gap not to— dealing with. i do think it is a gap not to have — dealing with. i do think it is a gap not to have psychological support available — not to have psychological support available and i had been able to provide — available and i had been able to provide that in other departments i had worked in pretty easily at very low cost _ had worked in pretty easily at very low cost to — had worked in pretty easily at very low cost to the taxpayer in a way that was — low cost to the taxpayer in a way that was genuinely helpful for all the people working on those things and i don't — the people working on those things and i don't really understand why we couldn't— and i don't really understand why we couldn't do— and i don't really understand why we couldn't do that then. i and i don't really understand why we couldn't do that then.— couldn't do that then. i don't want to net couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into — couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the _ couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the detail, _ couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the detail, but - couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the detail, but we - couldn't do that then. i don't want to get into the detail, but we see | to get into the detail, but we see one e—mail here where you are trying to obtain some counselling, did you leave it at that for the you press? i pressed a number of times in a number— i pressed a number of times in a numberof— i pressed a number of times in a numberof different i pressed a number of times in a number of different ways. just movin: number of different ways. just moving on _ number of different ways. just moving on a — number of different ways. just moving on a little _ number of different ways. just moving on a little bit but sticking with these issues, that were thrown up with these issues, that were thrown up on your return and to review you undertook, one way of describing what was shown although i am not sure these exact words are in your view, it would be was a toxic culture in downing street and a cabinet office at the time. and the inquiry has heard evidence, yesterday, of the repeated use of extremely crude language, in for example what's set between member of the downing street team, —— whatsapp, was at one aspect or perhaps a product of that type of toxic culture you are reporting on your review?— toxic culture you are reporting on your review? there was definitely a toxic culture. _ your review? there was definitely a toxic culture. the _ your review? there was definitely a toxic culture. the inquiry _ your review? there was definitely a toxic culture. the inquiry saw - toxic culture. the inquiry saw yesterday _ toxic culture. the inquiry saw yesterday some _ toxic culture. the inquiry saw yesterday some particularly l toxic culture. the inquiry saw - yesterday some particularly crude whatsapp micro—exchanges between dominic cummings and boris about you and about your possible departure from the cabinet office. let me ask you, was dominic cummings part of that toxic culture, part of the problem? it that toxic culture, part of the problem?— that toxic culture, part of the roblem? ., , , ., problem? it would be helpfulfor me to make a couple _ problem? it would be helpfulfor me to make a couple comments - problem? it would be helpfulfor me to make a couple comments about l to make a couple comments about those _ to make a couple comments about those messages. the first is i think it is important to understand what was actually happening at the time. it isn't _ was actually happening at the time. it isn't out — was actually happening at the time. it isn't out true that the prime minister— it isn't out true that the prime minister had offered me any number of permanent secretaryjobs in order to leave _ of permanent secretaryjobs in order to leave the — of permanent secretaryjobs in order to leave the cabinet office during that period of time. —— undoubtedly true _ that period of time. —— undoubtedly true i— that period of time. —— undoubtedly true i had — that period of time. —— undoubtedly true. i had repeatedly explained i wasn't _ true. i had repeatedly explained i wasn't going to participate in another— wasn't going to participate in another of my colleagues being moved on in order— another of my colleagues being moved on in order to create a job for me. so we _ on in order to create a job for me. so we had — on in order to create a job for me. so we had been having this exchange a period _ so we had been having this exchange a period of— so we had been having this exchange a period of time. the things mr cummings, having seen those messages, it is horrible to read, but it— messages, it is horrible to read, but it is— messages, it is horrible to read, but it is both surprising and not surprising — but it is both surprising and not surprising to me. i don't know which is worse _ surprising to me. i don't know which is worse i— surprising to me. i don't know which is worse. i think he was frustrated with me _ is worse. i think he was frustrated with me at — is worse. i think he was frustrated with me at the time. i would absolutely on that. i would also say all i was _ absolutely on that. i would also say all i was doing was actually working in the _ all i was doing was actually working in the service of the then prime minister— in the service of the then prime minister and defending his interests. i am sure lots of this this is— interests. i am sure lots of this this is not— interests. i am sure lots of this this is not for you but the two things— this is not for you but the two things in— this is not for you but the two things in particular that he was cross— things in particular that he was cross about, one was the appointment of david _ cross about, one was the appointment of david frost is a national security— of david frost is a national security adviser, where the proposal was that— security adviser, where the proposal was that mr— security adviser, where the proposal was that mr frost, who had left the civil service — was that mr frost, who had left the civil service as a director and then taken _ civil service as a director and then taken on — civil service as a director and then taken on a — civil service as a director and then taken on a very significant political— taken on a very significant political roles, tb then reappointed into the _ political roles, tb then reappointed into the civil service as a permanent secretary and put in charge — permanent secretary and put in charge of— permanent secretary and put in charge of national security, and for reasons— charge of national security, and for reasons i— charge of national security, and for reasons i don't probably have dick io reasons i don't probably have dick go into— reasons i don't probably have dick go into i— reasons i don't probably have dick go into i thought that was wrong, so i wouldn't _ go into i thought that was wrong, so i wouldn't let that happen. i had in fact come — i wouldn't let that happen. i had in fact come up with the proposal that would _ fact come up with the proposal that would fulfil with the prime minister most wanted which is mr frost to john the — most wanted which is mr frost to john the lords and be a minister i felt that— john the lords and be a minister i felt that was more proper and have accountability. mr cummings and those _ accountability. mr cummings and those messages is also frustrated with me _ those messages is also frustrated with me and says that i was sucking special— with me and says that i was sucking special advisers, which i never did, -- sacking — special advisers, which i never did, —— sacking special advisers. he was cross— —— sacking special advisers. he was cross in— —— sacking special advisers. he was cross in august because we were involved — cross in august because we were involved in— cross in august because we were involved in the employment tribunal where _ involved in the employment tribunal where he _ involved in the employment tribunal where he had in fact dismissed the special— where he had in fact dismissed the special adviser and i was insisting on him _ special adviser and i was insisting on him telling the truth of the employment tribunal, and he didn't respond _ employment tribunal, and he didn't respond well to that. surprising and not surprising. it wasn't a pleasant ptace _ not surprising. it wasn't a pleasant place to— not surprising. it wasn't a pleasant place to work. | not surprising. it wasn't a pleasant place to work-— place to work. i think it follows from what _ place to work. i think it follows from what you _ place to work. i think it follows from what you say _ place to work. i think it follows from what you say that - place to work. i think it follows from what you say that those l place to work. i think it follows - from what you say that those e-mails from what you say that those e—mails we saw in your view absolutely are it be —like, evidence or way in which we can gauge the type of toxic culture that you and others were experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the — experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the wrong _ experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the wrong attitude - experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the wrong attitude to - experiencing at the time. it is also exactly the wrong attitude to the l exactly the wrong attitude to the civil service, if i may, iwas exactly the wrong attitude to the civil service, if i may, i was doing myioh _ civil service, if i may, i was doing myioh as— civil service, if i may, i was doing myioh as a — civil service, if i may, i was doing myjob as a civil servant and i'm confident— myjob as a civil servant and i'm confident about that. the way in which _ confident about that. the way in which it— confident about that. the way in which it was considered appropriate to describe what should happen to me yes is— to describe what should happen to me yes is a _ to describe what should happen to me yes is a woman but yes a civil servant. _ yes is a woman but yes a civil servant. it— yes is a woman but yes a civil servant, it is disappointing to me that the — servant, it is disappointing to me that the prime minister didn't pick him up _ that the prime minister didn't pick him up on — that the prime minister didn't pick him up on the use of some of that violent— him up on the use of some of that violent and — him up on the use of some of that violent and misogynistic language. that was— violent and misogynistic language. that was going to be my next question because mr cummings has been asked about the messages he sent, but of course the point you make, we have seen mrjohnson was a participant in notjust that whatsapp group but plenty of others where this sort of language, that sort of abuse was used. drawing on your experience in the cabinet office what is your reaction to what appears to have been his failure to try and stop that sort of language, that sort of attitude prevailing? it isjust miles away that sort of attitude prevailing? it is just miles away from what is right— is just miles away from what is right or— is just miles away from what is right or proper or decent or what the country— right or proper or decent or what the country deserves. let right or proper or decent or what the country deserves.— right or proper or decent or what the country deserves. let me go on, ms mcnamara. _ the country deserves. let me go on, ms mcnamara, you _ the country deserves. let me go on, ms mcnamara, you were _ the country deserves. let me go on, ms mcnamara, you were talking - the country deserves. let me go on, l ms mcnamara, you were talking about the solutions that were thought of to try and move on and improve the culture at number 10 and downing street, and you explain in a witness statement, i will not go to the paragraph but you explain that at least part of the solution to those problems was to encourage people working in number 10 and downing street to spend more time together so they had a chance to develop as it were better relationships in that no doubt stressful environment. in fact you e—mailed martin reynolds to that effect. in tab 27 of the bundle, 136760, we see this e—mail, the lower half of the page, we can see that this is in fact part of the drafting process of that note, the review document. and if we can look at the passage starting i have suggested to messages, the paragraph, picking it up, two or three lines down, you say, "we also read we would find ways for the senior team to get together on a social basis, provided it is within the guidance. " and then you go on and mention your concern guidance on safer workplaces isn't being kept to, we have talked about that already. but is this a suggestion, the suggestion that the senior team get together on a social basis, is that part of this idea of trying to improve the culture in number 10? absolutely. people have never met each other— absolutely. people have never met each other you had a whole load of people. _ each other you had a whole load of people. a — each other you had a whole load of people, a lot of whom were really briiiiantiy— people, a lot of whom were really brilliantly useful who had been hrought — brilliantly useful who had been brought into number 10 as experts and specialists on various things, who were — and specialists on various things, who were working with people they had never— who were working with people they had never met and i was particularly concerned _ had never met and i was particularly concerned that a lot of these people sort of _ concerned that a lot of these people sort of has _ concerned that a lot of these people sort of has no idea of the tripwires in the _ sort of has no idea of the tripwires in the organisation they were working — in the organisation they were working in. iwas in the organisation they were working in. i was confident that if we could — working in. i was confident that if we could just get people to talk to each other, they might in fact be able to— each other, they might in fact be able to work better together. that has been — able to work better together. that has been the case everywhere i have worked _ has been the case everywhere i have worked it _ has been the case everywhere i have worked. it was definitely true at this period of time, i was very concerned _ this period of time, i was very concerned about it. people didn't know— concerned about it. people didn't know each— concerned about it. people didn't know each other's names. you add, "0f know each other's names. you add, "of course — know each other's names. you add, "of course the _ know each other's names. you add, "of course the important _ know each other's names. you add, "of course the important further - "of course the important further thought that any such meeting should be within the guidance." i want to move to a different document, tab 24, it is another one of these documents relating to the drafting process of your review, and e—mail. we have it on screen, 136754. towards the bottom of the page we can see, this is a message from john owen, he was saying, he was mark sedwell�*s private secretary and the third person who contributed to the review. he is pleased with the draft. he says it cheered him up no end to read and he has put some comments in red. if we could move on to page four of the document. we can see under number seven, one of his sets of comments. subject matter is not really why i have taken you here but what you are discussing is a question of whether as part of this review people should be encouraged to work from home or not. this was another issue, another theme of the draft review which didn't make it into the final version perhaps because the 3d couldn't quite decide what you thought about it. there were arguments both ways, whether or not? one of the points mr owen was making, and we can see he is disagreeing with the idea that people should be encouraged to come into the office more, he says, "i fundamentally disagree with this. when we are telling the country to socially distance, it shows utter contempt to the electorate to openly flout those rules." there are arguments both ways that we see in a document, a discussion about whether in fact because of the ways of working in number 10 in fact because of the ways of working in number10 it in fact because of the ways of working in number 10 it was important to be there, but that sentiment but it was important for those working at the centre to take a lead and to provide an example to the rest of the country i imagine is one you agree with. j the rest of the country i imagine is one you agree with.— one you agree with. i agree we should have — one you agree with. i agree we should have been _ one you agree with. i agree we should have been following - one you agree with. i agree we j should have been following the rules — should have been following the rules. absolutely. just should have been following the rules. absolutely.— rules. absolutely. just thinking about both _ rules. absolutely. just thinking about both of _ rules. absolutely. just thinking about both of those, _ rules. absolutely. just thinking about both of those, the - rules. absolutely. just thinking | about both of those, the earlier e—mail about trying to encourage more meeting at this point, what is your reflection on the fact that as it's very well known, there were a series of parties that took part in a place in the downing street in a weeks and months that followed these e—mails, including one on the 18th ofjune that you attended? this should never _ ofjune that you attended? this should never have _ ofjune that you attended? this should never have happened is the first thing — should never have happened is the first thing that i would say unambiguously. i have set out in my statement _ unambiguously. i have set out in my statement a — unambiguously. i have set out in my statement a lot more of my thinking and explaining why i did what i did at the _ and explaining why i did what i did at the time, explaining a not the same _ at the time, explaining a not the same as— at the time, explaining a not the same as excusing. i think it is both incredibly— same as excusing. i think it is both incredibly depressing and actually heipfui— incredibly depressing and actually helpful that people understand a little bit — helpful that people understand a little bit more now about what it was like — little bit more now about what it was like to work in that organisation during this period of time, _ organisation during this period of time, because there is a lot about the handling of windows allegations of parties _ the handling of windows allegations of parties came up that i profoundly disagree _ of parties came up that i profoundly disagree with stop firstly and most importantly lying about it. i don't understand at all why it wasn't acknowledged that on a number of occasions — acknowledged that on a number of occasions i — acknowledged that on a number of occasions i am sure that downing street— occasions i am sure that downing street and — occasions i am sure that downing street and the cabinet office sometime didn't follow the regulations. you will see throughout any number— regulations. you will see throughout any number of e—mails between us all this endiess _ any number of e—mails between us all this endless conversation about is it ok _ this endless conversation about is it ok that— this endless conversation about is it ok that so many people are in the office. _ it ok that so many people are in the office. what — it ok that so many people are in the office, what we we doing to try to limit _ office, what we we doing to try to limit the — office, what we we doing to try to limit the number of people in a meeting — limit the number of people in a meeting room? and some of the reasons— meeting room? and some of the reasons i— meeting room? and some of the reasons i think where people thought they had _ reasons i think where people thought they had to be at work so often and definitely— they had to be at work so often and definitely what why i did, is it because — definitely what why i did, is it because it was my only mechanism of keeping _ because it was my only mechanism of keeping any— because it was my only mechanism of keeping any sort of control over what _ keeping any sort of control over what was — keeping any sort of control over what was happening. but we collectively got all of that really run. collectively got all of that really run i _ collectively got all of that really run. i would absolutely acknowledge that. run. i would absolutely acknowledge that the _ run. i would absolutely acknowledge that. the thing i think that has been _ that. the thing i think that has been particularly unfair is it has allowed — been particularly unfair is it has allowed for a betrayal of a lot of peopie — allowed for a betrayal of a lot of people who worked really hard and did amazing work to be presented as something _ did amazing work to be presented as something that in my experience they want _ something that in my experience they want i— something that in my experience they want i find _ something that in my experience they want. ifind it something that in my experience they want. i find it hard to talk about this because i wasn't there. i don't know— this because i wasn't there. i don't know how— this because i wasn't there. i don't know how old i was at a time but i definitely— know how old i was at a time but i definitely wasn't partying at number 10, i was— definitely wasn't partying at number 10, i was either at work or at home. acknowledging what had happened, that some of it was a symptom of the situation, _ that some of it was a symptom of the situation, being honest about the fact that — situation, being honest about the fact that i — situation, being honest about the fact that i would find it hard to pick— fact that i would find it hard to pick one — fact that i would find it hard to pick one day when the regulations were _ pick one day when the regulations were followed properly inside that building. — were followed properly inside that building, and i know that because as i have _ building, and i know that because as i have certainly statement there was one meeting where we absolutely adhered _ one meeting where we absolutely adhered to the guidance to the letter— adhered to the guidance to the letter and that was a cabinet meeting _ letter and that was a cabinet meeting and everybody moaned about it and try— meeting and everybody moaned about it and try to— meeting and everybody moaned about it and try to change it repeatedly. i know _ it and try to change it repeatedly. i know how — it and try to change it repeatedly. i know how exceptional it was to reatiy _ i know how exceptional it was to really properly followed the guidance. i think in retrospect obviously— guidance. i think in retrospect obviously all sorts of things were run. obviously all sorts of things were run i— obviously all sorts of things were run. i really hope in addition to the investigation that was done into a specific— the investigation that was done into a specific subset of events, where i would _ a specific subset of events, where i would also — a specific subset of events, where i would also say i think parties is one of— would also say i think parties is one of those irregular verbs, so my glass— one of those irregular verbs, so my glass of— one of those irregular verbs, so my glass of wine in the office with colleagues at the end of a difficult day is _ colleagues at the end of a difficult day is your— colleagues at the end of a difficult day is your event in the cabinet room _ day is your event in the cabinet room is — day is your event in the cabinet room is their party and i think i am not sure— room is their party and i think i am not sure how— room is their party and i think i am not sure how a junior civil servant working _ not sure how a junior civil servant working in— not sure how a junior civil servant working in numberio is not sure how a junior civil servant working in number 10 is supposed to be able _ working in number 10 is supposed to be able to— working in number 10 is supposed to be able to know the difference of where _ be able to know the difference of where those lines are drawn. i think. — where those lines are drawn. i think. i— where those lines are drawn. i think, i really hope there was also an additional piece of work done which _ an additional piece of work done which is — an additional piece of work done which is to— an additional piece of work done which is to look at the entirety of what _ which is to look at the entirety of what happened in organisational cuitures — what happened in organisational cultures across whitehall during that period of time and to try to understand why and how you make sure that doesn't _ understand why and how you make sure that doesn't happen again because i think those of the civil service questions, why why did this happen, why did _ questions, why why did this happen, why did this— questions, why why did this happen, why did this collective group of peopie — why did this collective group of people decide to do things that are so clearly— people decide to do things that are so clearly in the wrong place and then— so clearly in the wrong place and then how — so clearly in the wrong place and then how would we make sure it doesn't — then how would we make sure it doesn't happen again? i hope that piece _ doesn't happen again? i hope that piece of— doesn't happen again? i hope that piece of work has happened because i think it _ piece of work has happened because i think it is _ piece of work has happened because i think it is really important, and this is— think it is really important, and this is the — think it is really important, and this is the last thing i will say about— this is the last thing i will say about this, but when the police drew the line _ about this, but when the police drew the line at— about this, but when the police drew the line at what was acceptable or not, the line at what was acceptable or not. i— the line at what was acceptable or not. i think— the line at what was acceptable or not, i think it is called the birthday— not, i think it is called the birthday gathering, i am not sure, in the _ birthday gathering, i am not sure, in the cabin— birthday gathering, i am not sure, in the cabin trim, when they said that was— in the cabin trim, when they said that was the wrong side of the line i am certain— that was the wrong side of the line i am certain there are hundreds of civil servants and eventually ministers who in retrospect think they were — ministers who in retrospect think they were the wrong side of that line _ they were the wrong side of that line i— they were the wrong side of that line. i really hope there has been some _ line. i really hope there has been some mature conversation about that, because _ some mature conversation about that, because a _ some mature conversation about that, because a sort of thing if it isn't addressed — because a sort of thing if it isn't addressed is corrosive in a culture. i hope _ addressed is corrosive in a culture. i hope that— addressed is corrosive in a culture. i hope that endless lessons are learned — i hope that endless lessons are learned about this period of time but some — learned about this period of time but some of them are about cultures and ways— but some of them are about cultures and ways of— but some of them are about cultures and ways of working and supporting peopie _ and ways of working and supporting people and providing better infrastructure it's mistakes aren't made _ infrastructure it's mistakes aren't made and — infrastructure it's mistakes aren't made and when mistakes are made and turning _ made and when mistakes are made and turning and _ made and when mistakes are made and turning and saying sorry. i made and when mistakes are made and turning and saying sorry.— turning and saying sorry. i want to take ou turning and saying sorry. i want to take you back— turning and saying sorry. i want to take you back to _ turning and saying sorry. i want to take you back to one _ turning and saying sorry. i want to take you back to one of— turning and saying sorry. i want to take you back to one of the - turning and saying sorry. i want to take you back to one of the thingsj take you back to one of the things you said which is that you want to at the parties. acknowledging the point you made about what we call those events, you were there at one of them, weren't you? those events, you were there atone of them, weren't you?— of them, weren't you? absolutely. i was in the office _ of them, weren't you? absolutely. i was in the office and _ of them, weren't you? absolutely. i was in the office and i _ of them, weren't you? absolutely. i was in the office and i didn't - of them, weren't you? absolutely. i was in the office and i didn't think. was in the office and i didn't think at the _ was in the office and i didn't think at the time, and this is again my own thinking and my own profound regret, _ own thinking and my own profound regret, and — own thinking and my own profound regret, and that is for the damage that has— regret, and that is for the damage that has been caused to so many peopie _ that has been caused to so many people because of it, as well as a mortifying — people because of it, as well as a mortifying experience of seeing what that looks _ mortifying experience of seeing what that looks like and how rightly offended everybody is in retrospect, i have _ offended everybody is in retrospect, i have gone into some detail in this and my— i have gone into some detail in this and my statement, i absolutely new and my statement, i absolutely new and thought it was actually important for there to be space for particularly private office to be able to — particularly private office to be able to gather together and spend time together and that was entirely because _ time together and that was entirely because of the counterculture they were working in and entirely because i was _ were working in and entirely because i was reatiy— were working in and entirely because i was really worried about individuals breaking and suffering and whether they would be ok and i important _ and whether they would be ok and i important their colleagues were to each other and ijust want to say again. _ each other and ijust want to say again. i— each other and ijust want to say again. iam— each other and ijust want to say again, i am saying each other and ijust want to say again, lam saying none each other and ijust want to say again, i am saying none of that in excuse _ again, i am saying none of that in excuse of— again, i am saying none of that in excuse of my own research on it and none _ excuse of my own research on it and none of _ excuse of my own research on it and none of that — excuse of my own research on it and none of that in excuse of thinking any of— none of that in excuse of thinking any of these things 0k, none of that in excuse of thinking any of these things ok, but it is a much _ any of these things ok, but it is a much more — any of these things ok, but it is a much more complex situation than is allowed _ much more complex situation than is allowed to— much more complex situation than is allowed to be presented for lots of different _ allowed to be presented for lots of different reasons, and i think i feel very— different reasons, and i think i feel very strongly it is unfair on a junior— feel very strongly it is unfair on a junior civii — feel very strongly it is unfair on a junior civil servants who were caught— junior civil servants who were caught up— junior civil servants who were caught up in it. junior civil servants who were caught "p in it— junior civil servants who were caught up in it. complex but still those events _ caught up in it. complex but still those events shouldn't _ caught up in it. complex but still those events shouldn't have - those events shouldn't have happened, should they? fit those events shouldn't have happened, should they? of course not. you describe _ happened, should they? of course not. you describe an _ happened, should they? of course not. you describe an institutional. not. you describe an institutional failure really, _ not. you describe an institutional failure really, but _ not. you describe an institutional failure really, but you _ not. you describe an institutional failure really, but you were - not. you describe an institutional failure really, but you were at - not. you describe an institutional| failure really, but you were at the very apex of that institution and so to the extent there was an institutional failure, to the extent there was an institutionalfailure, that to the extent there was an institutional failure, that was to a degree your failure.— degree your failure. yes. i think discovering _ degree your failure. yes. i think discovering myself _ degree your failure. yes. i think discovering myself as _ degree your failure. yes. i think discovering myself as the - degree your failure. yes. i think discovering myself as the apex l degree your failure. yes. i think. discovering myself as the apex of that institution is probably overstating my role at the time but i definitely, as a senior leader working — i definitely, as a senior leader working there then, of course i do and i— working there then, of course i do and i own— working there then, of course i do and i own all the other things i wish _ and i own all the other things i wish now— and i own all the other things i wish now in retrospect i had done more _ wish now in retrospect i had done more on — wish now in retrospect i had done more on. you can't possibly go through— more on. you can't possibly go through this experience at the time at the _ through this experience at the time at the time i have had to think about— at the time i have had to think about it — at the time i have had to think about it without thinking i had done about it without thinking i had done a lot of— about it without thinking i had done a lot of things differently. let about it without thinking i had done a lot of things differently.— a lot of things differently. let me move on. a lot of things differently. let me move on- to _ a lot of things differently. let me move on- to a — a lot of things differently. let me move on. to a constitutional- a lot of things differently. let me i move on. to a constitutional issue. it takes us back to one of the issues we noted at the very start of my questions. you will recall that in that paragraph of your statement where you were summarising the preparedness or otherwise of the british government state for covid, you refer to an healthy habits which the system had required during the year or two before and one of those we talked about was this habit of bypassing ministers in decision—making, he referred to the practice that developed during the brexit discussions, ministers being put into reading rooms before cabinet so they could see documents they were about to be asked to endorse. it's not that the type of situation you are describing? is. it situation you are describing? is. it is not uncommon _ situation you are describing? is. it is not uncommon and _ situation you are describing? is. it is not uncommon and i _ situation you are describing? is. it is not uncommon and i have - situation you are describing? is. it is not uncommon and i have worked with lots— is not uncommon and i have worked with lots of— is not uncommon and i have worked with lots of different number 10s, not uncommon to not be wildly enthusiastic about cabinet government and collective agreement. it is definitely true that through the brexit time i think whitehall -ot the brexit time i think whitehall got bent— the brexit time i think whitehall got bent out of shape in terms of cabinet _ got bent out of shape in terms of cabinet government and ministers being _ cabinet government and ministers being treated properly and to ministers being able to take decisions. i am ministers being able to take decisions. lam pretty ministers being able to take decisions. i am pretty hard over the civil servant — decisions. i am pretty hard over the civil servant i — decisions. i am pretty hard over the civil servant i think on the importance of collective agreement and cabinet and ministers taking decisions — and cabinet and ministers taking decisions. ., . �* and cabinet and ministers taking decisions. ., ., �* ., decisions. you haven't referred to leakinu. decisions. you haven't referred to leaking- we _ decisions. you haven't referred to leaking. we heard _ decisions. you haven't referred to leaking. we heard from _ decisions. you haven't referred to leaking. we heard from mr- decisions. you haven't referred to leaking. we heard from mr kane i leaking. we heard from mr kane yesterday, we saw some whatsapp exchanges where there was a pretty robust discussion between mr cain and mrjohnson i think it was about leaking from within the cabinet, names were named of people they thought were leaking material. from your experience was as part of the explanation for why there was this desire on the part of the core decision makers, the prime minister his team, to use a word, marginalise cabinet ministers? it is his team, to use a word, marginalise cabinet ministers?— cabinet ministers? it is definitely an explanation, _ cabinet ministers? it is definitely an explanation, i— cabinet ministers? it is definitely an explanation, i don't _ cabinet ministers? it is definitely an explanation, i don't think - cabinet ministers? it is definitely an explanation, i don't think it i cabinet ministers? it is definitely an explanation, i don't think it is| an explanation, i don't think it is an explanation, i don't think it is an excuse — an explanation, i don't think it is an excuse would be my view. although i would _ an excuse would be my view. although i would absolutely agree with them on the _ i would absolutely agree with them on the damage that leaking caused in terms _ on the damage that leaking caused in terms of— on the damage that leaking caused in terms of the quality of decisions that then — terms of the quality of decisions that then are taken because you are rushing _ that then are taken because you are rushing in _ that then are taken because you are rushing in terms of getting a decision— rushing in terms of getting a decision out and i would say it is very— decision out and i would say it is very important there is good reporting of what government is doing _ reporting of what government is doing so— reporting of what government is doing so it is not an attempt to shut— doing so it is not an attempt to shut down— doing so it is not an attempt to shut downjournalist doing so it is not an attempt to shut down journalist reporting things— shut down journalist reporting things but it is really corrosive when — things but it is really corrosive when somebody decides to make something ill formed and everyone has to— something ill formed and everyone has to rush — something ill formed and everyone has to rush about trying to come out with what— has to rush about trying to come out with what the real answer ought to be in _ with what the real answer ought to be in hours — with what the real answer ought to be in hours rather than days. let me 'ust now be in hours rather than days. let me just now focusing _ be in hours rather than days. let me just now focusing on _ be in hours rather than days. let me just now focusing on the _ be in hours rather than days. let me just now focusing on the covid - just now focusing on the covid period, and you say about this on your statement, period, and you say about this on yourstatement, if period, and you say about this on your statement, if we go to page 64, paragraph 129... you say here, "at a time i was concerned about what i saw as a circumnavigating of cabinet governance." you were increasingly worried that the cabinet themselves were not being given a full scientific pager or be able to be part of this dish decision—making and you want to say there was a symmetry, and a symmetry, we will recall one of the rose was briefing the shadow cabinet, was an asymmetry in it at one point the shadow cabinet were getting more opportunity to ask questions of the cmo, chris whitty and the csi patrick vallance and cabinet ministers who were absolutely in the government. is this the summary of that concern you have just been describing? that concern you have 'ust been describingvfi that concern you have 'ust been describing?- if _ that concern you have just been describing? yes. if we look at a cou - le describing? yes. if we look at a coople of _ describing? yes. if we look at a couple of documents to see what in practice perhaps was going on, whatsapp exchange. paragraph 23671. . this is an exchange between group including dominic cummings