bells and start really - politicians. that's right. align bells and start really ringing l politicians. that's right. alignl bells and start really ringing in politicians. that's right. align - bells and start really ringing in my mind. it might be a good time to say it is quite important in terms of the operation of government that you don't start interfering with other people's dayjobs, particularly when you are senior. i was quite careful at this period of time to try to understand what was happening, rather than to kind of immediately go to arching about, questioning and saying this doesn't feel right. i felt that was the proper thing to do. i wish absolutely i had said and done more and trusted my instincts much earlier. i don't think there is anybody who will sit before you who will not say that about what happened in the february particularly. but this was a good example of the opposition politicians who, throughout this period, were entirely reasonable in asking questions in private and not criticising the government in public, the shadow health secretary, as i say here, had said... had asked as i say here, had said... had asked a question about why going to the football was ok, given what he and i knew about going to the football, which, yes, of course, when you're in the stadium shouting into the ground, that probably is low risk of transmission, but when you're in the pub or on the train beforehand or on the concourses you are incredibly close to other people and i should say i spent a long time at the premier league a long time after this trying to make football grounds safe in terms of transmission. but i was worried about the fact that the kind of house view was that football games were 0k shelled, and this is not a criticism of the people, but of the process, other things that nobody who was involved in that discussion had probably ever been to a football game. in quite the way most people go to football games. and it was that gap between what i knew to be how most people live their lives and what was really happening in places, and this theoretical idea that standing outside singing was ok that made me worry about what other disconnects there might be. it wasn'tjust about football, it seemed like a big problem if people were thinking that something was one thing when it was really something completely different. 50 really something completely different. ., ., . ., different. so we have touched on the sort of macho _ different. so we have touched on the sort of macho culture, _ sort of macho culture, overconfidence, but this is another theme that we will come back to in your statement, a concern about lack of real world experience around the table, amongst those taking these decisions. ., table, amongst those taking these decisions.- going _ table, amongst those taking these decisions. yeah. going back, if we ma , to decisions. yeah. going back, if we may. to that— decisions. yeah. going back, if we may, to that question _ decisions. yeah. going back, if we may, to that question of _ may, to that question of overconfidence. one of the points that was made that you have referred to was this idea that there was a plan. notjust a plan but a very good plan, a world beating plan. and if we can look at paragraph 30, thank you, on page 16... you say... you refer to the action plan that was published in march, early march. and you say, in retrospect, this is an extraordinary document, given that so many of the assertions about how well prepared we were would turn out to be wrong only weeks later. but it goes, as you say, in the statement, some way to explaining that level of confidence at the time, that there were plans in place. we heard mr cain yesterday giving evidence about this plan saying that when he read it he felt it was a communications document, it had no substance to it. did that strike you at the time? {iii did that strike you at the time? of all the things i had to go back and read, ifound rereading this document the hardest in retrospect because it is so far away from what the reality turned out to be. i, like mr cain, thought it was a communications document and that underneath it there would be things i would recognise as a plan. as in, who is doing what, by one, what is a strategy. some enormously laborious bureaucratic documents which i knew and loved at the time and i thought thatis and loved at the time and i thought that is what there was. and of all of the shocking things in that period of time, discovering that there wasn't actually that sort of document. if there wasn't actually that sort of document-— there wasn't actually that sort of document. ., document. if we look at the next, -araara-h document. if we look at the next, paragraph 31. _ document. if we look at the next, paragraph 31. you _ document. if we look at the next, paragraph 31, you do _ document. if we look at the next, paragraph 31, you do say - document. if we look at the next, paragraph 31, you do say that - document. if we look at the next, paragraph 31, you do say that at l paragraph 31, you do say that at around this time in early march you started asking for the plans, so—called, and you have used inverted commas, so that you could dovetail the advice that she would be giving whether the plans that you thought were about to be taken out of the drawer and implemented. did you everfind of the drawer and implemented. did you ever find those plans? of the drawer and implemented. did you everfind those plans? ha. do you ever find those plans? no. do ou think you ever find those plans? iiru do you think they existed? you ever find those plans? no. do you think they existed? i - you ever find those plans? no. do you think they existed? i don't - you think they existed? i don't know. you think they existed? i don't know they — you think they existed? i don't know. they didn't _ you think they existed? i don't know. they didn't exist - you think they existed? i don't know. they didn't exist in - you think they existed? i don't know. they didn't exist in a . you think they existed? i don'tl know. they didn't exist in a way that was usable, or that anybody had, and i think these are not... there is a cabinet office crisis response plan, but there is also the pandemic readiness, the responsibility of the department of health. so the working assumption, incorrect, was that the department of health had a whole series of plans that were ready for this, and that there then was sequential or a related series of plans for the cabinet office to coordinate. i don't think anybody in the cabinet office felt that the beginning, middle and end of the whole job was responding to the pandemic. they were supposed to be coordinating the plans that other people had that had existed and were practised. i don't think i saw a plan for that either, by the way. i am not saying both of these things existed but it is a gap on a gap, rather than... haste these things existed but it is a gap on a gap, rather than...— on a gap, rather than... we are talkin: on a gap, rather than... we are talking about _ on a gap, rather than... we are talking about plans _ on a gap, rather than... we are talking about plans that - on a gap, rather than... we are talking about plans that should| on a gap, rather than. .. we are - talking about plans that should have been drawn up in different places a. yes. �* ., ., , been drawn up in different places a. yes. �* ., .,, been drawn up in different places a. yes. �* ., ., yes. but at least part of the problem _ yes. but at least part of the problem perhaps _ yes. but at least part of the problem perhaps is - yes. but at least part of the problem perhaps is that - yes. but at least part of the | problem perhaps is that what yes. but at least part of the - problem perhaps is that what you really wanted to see were those plans from the department of health focusing on this pandemic preparedness set of issues. yes. i don't know _ preparedness set of issues. yes. i don't know if— preparedness set of issues. yes. i don't know if it _ preparedness set of issues. yes. i don't know if it will _ preparedness set of issues. yes. i don't know if it will be _ preparedness set of issues. yes. i don't know if it will be possible... | don't know if it will be possible... there may be very good reasons why you cannot publish these but i attached to my witness statement the eurozone contingency plans that we had in the cabinet office and they go into an operations manual, a meeting is manual, communications manual. it is basically a lot of groundwork which, even if there had been plans, they would not have been perfect for this time, i think it is important to say that. but that was the sort of thing that i thought existed, and or something like the plans for no deal exit, which were incredibly thorough and ready to go and it was perfectly possible to pick it up and see what meeting happened in what order and the think that i thought i was doing was just taking all of that planning and then putting on top of it, this is how we will manage cabinet and collective decision—making and these are the structures and the way we should arrange ourselves in the cabinet office. i don't think, even at this time, i really understood that that was not in fact... that was not in fact the question. was not in fact. .. that was not in fact the question.— was not in fact... that was not in fact the question. there was nothing for ou to fact the question. there was nothing for you to start _ fact the question. there was nothing for you to start with _ fact the question. there was nothing for you to start with from _ fact the question. there was nothing for you to start with from the - for you to start with from the department of health? ha. new detail department of health? no. new detail in department of health? iiru new detail in your statement, ms macnamara, you say you have gone back and thought, why you didn't challenge this earlier, why you had this assumption, which, to be fair, we have heard you shared with many other people, that there were these plans in place and you get a number of reasons. ijust want plans in place and you get a number of reasons. i just want to plans in place and you get a number of reasons. ijust want to pick up on the last one. if we can go to page 20 of your statement. it is the little roman 6 at the top. you make the point that the cabinet was told in your words, time and time again, by the health secretary, that we had plans in place. by the health secretary, that we had plans in place-— by the health secretary, that we had plans in place- in _ by the health secretary, that we had plans in place. yeah. in your hearing- _ plans in place. yeah. in your hearing. yes. _ plans in place. yeah. in your hearing. yes. was _ plans in place. yeah. in your hearing. yes. was there - plans in place. yeah. in your hearing. yes. was there anyj hearing. yes. was there any ambiguity. _ hearing. yes. was there any ambiguity, looking - hearing. yes was there any ambiguity, looking back? hearing. yes. was there any l ambiguity, looking back? no. hearing. yes. was there any - ambiguity, looking back? no. had you ambiguity, looking back? iiru had you assumed that when he said that he knew what he was talking about? i assumed he had seen them and been through them and thought they were adequate. i thought that's what he was saying. 1th adequate. i thought that's what he was sa inc. �* . adequate. i thought that's what he was sa inc. �* , , adequate. i thought that's what he wassa int. n ,., adequate. i thought that's what he was saying-— was saying. as it turns out, that really couldn't _ was saying. as it turns out, that really couldn't have _ was saying. as it turns out, that really couldn't have been - was saying. as it turns out, that really couldn't have been the i was saying. as it turns out, that i really couldn't have been the case, could it with yellow i mean, you would have to ask him but could it with yellow i mean, you would have to ask hin— could it with yellow i mean, you would have to ask him but i would not understand _ would have to ask him but i would not understand a _ would have to ask him but i would not understand a scenario - would have to ask him but i would not understand a scenario where i not understand a scenario where these plans did exist and yet we never got them. iflan these plans did exist and yet we never got them.— these plans did exist and yet we never got them. can i move on and ask ou never got them. can i move on and ask you about _ never got them. can i move on and ask you about just _ never got them. can i move on and ask you aboutjust one _ never got them. can i move on and ask you aboutjust one other - never got them. can i move on and ask you aboutjust one other issue | ask you aboutjust one other issue relating to this period? that is the so called chickenpox parties. page 32 of your statement, paragraph 59. again, we are still talking about that early march period. and it has been publicly discussed, has it not, this idea that you boss, the cabinet secretary mike said well, it was talking at this stage about chickenpox parties? mr cummings was asked about this yesterday and his evidence was that he was profoundly shocked when he heard about these discussions because they seemed to him to indicate how far removed from reality people's understanding, including mark sedwill�*s aware of the pandemic and how far it had reached. in your statement, first of all, let's be clear, you say that you are not sure that, actually, mr sedwill advocated chickenpox parties but you think it was probably something discussed by him in the cabinet office. as i read it, your take on this is that if you like it provides an insight into the way people were thinking about the pandemic as late as early march. i think it really shows our lack of understanding. i think our collective... i can't say what basis this was on. but i don't think we understood how serious covid could be for certain people. i don't think we properly understood any of the serious consequences like long covid, any of these things, and i think we definitely did have the mindset that the thing to do was to, you know, if you had covid then you would be better and it would be better because she wouldn't get covid again. the notion that we would be infected... that could just be our collective ignorance rather than something that was said. i definitely don't remember mark sedwill advocating chickenpox parties. we were talking about family dynamics and what people would do and i think chickenpox parties are a very bad idea. it is more revealing of what we were thinking at the time and the level of our lack of understanding, i think. ., ., ., ., think. let me move on to a different. _ think. let me move on to a different, although - think. let me move on to a different, although a - think. let me move on to a. different, although a related subject, and it is this idea of" following the science". paragraph 36, page 21, if we can. and just picking it up from the start of that paragraph... you say you remember conversations in the same period as we are talking about now, in late january, early february, where those of us working together in a number 10 and the cabinet office at one step removed from the handling of the response expressed doubt about the argument that we should "follow the science", and you go on to say, this is one of those areas where you wish you had been able to access your phone because you have a memory that you are texting or on what's up with people about this. is that right? yes. 1ng people about this. is that right? yes. �* . people about this. is that right? yes. �* , , ., , �* people about this. is that right? yes. a , �* , yes. as we will see, it wasn't 'ust texts because fl yes. as we will see, it wasn't 'ust texts because they i yes. as we will see, it wasn't 'ust texts because they were i yes. as we will see, it wasn't just texts because they were some . yes. as we will see, it wasn't just - texts because they were some e-mails texts because they were some e—mails that you sent about that and we will come to those. but if we move on, if we can, to... could rhys tait with paragraph 36, please? —— could we state with paragraph 36? you make it clear that the concern was not that you thought that chris whitty and patrick vallance and no doubt all of those who supported them were anything other than excellent scientists who could provide scientific advice. what you go on is a slightly different concern, perhaps you can explain it. i thought it was a very odd thing to say, it is not what governments normally do, just decide they are going to blindly follow advice from something else. that was my first question with it, why are we following... is that the right thing that a government should be doing, following the science? and i also, probably more significantly, didn't understand what "the science" was, and felt that it felt, to my first point, a bit of a cop out. we are not making any decisions, we are just following the science and an unfair one in particular. secondly, there is so much and so many different scientific questions involved and even i, who am not an expert, could see that. i thought it was an odd thing to stick so religiously too, although i could see its value as a comms line. if religiously too, although i could see its value as a comms line. ii are see its value as a comms line. if we look at paragraph — see its value as a comms line. if we look at paragraph 38, _ see its value as a comms line. if we look at paragraph 38, on _ see its value as a comms line. if we look at paragraph 38, on the - see its value as a comms line. if we look at paragraph 38, on the next page, you make a further point, ms macnamara, which, as i understand it, is perhaps because science was something that people were less confident about, people at the centre, than other areas, that it was almost like a safety blanket. that... because epidemiology no doubt modelling is actually really quite complicated science, which are decision makers did not feel confident with, they reached for this idea of following the science in a way that, to use the points you make there, they would not have done in another situation. for example, economics. you say it would have been laughable to propose following the economics. but, nonetheless, people didn't say they were following the science.- people didn't say they were following the science. yes, and i should say _ following the science. yes, and i should say there _ following the science. yes, and i should say there are _ following the science. yes, and i should say there are a _ following the science. yes, and i should say there are a very - following the science. yes, and i j should say there are a very large number of very brilliant scientists and people with scientific backgrounds working in whitehall, so it is not that they are not there, it is not that they are not there, it is not that they are not there, it is just that they are rarely in the kind of upper echelons of the civil service and the cabinet office. and also in the kind of hysteria and political environment. so that was my point, really, that... that sort of ignorance, which, you know, mr cummings and i are both history graduates, so there is only so much of your own learning and knowledge you can apply to asking good questions. and i think that we were collectively under confident on being able to ask questions about science, even though we have some very good scientific advisers around us. let we have some very good scientific advisers around us.— we have some very good scientific advisers around us. let me ask you a more direct — advisers around us. let me ask you a more direct question _ advisers around us. let me ask you a more direct question about _ advisers around us. let me ask you a more direct question about this. - advisers around us. let me ask you a more direct question about this. we l more direct question about this. we have seen evidence in particular from patrick vallance's diaries, but not only that, that he and others were frustrated about the fact that the prime minister, mrjohnson, did not understand the science and would get it wrong, and they would have to repeatedly explain what they regarded as being quite basic points about infection rates, modelling, worst—case scenarios, and so on. did you experience that, to? yes worst-case scenarios, and so on. did you experience that, to?— you experience that, to? yes stop as indeed i witnessed _ you experience that, to? yes stop as indeed i witnessed that, _ you experience that, to? yes stop as indeed i witnessed that, yes. - you experience that, to? yes stop as indeed i witnessed that, yes. yes. i indeed i witnessed that, yes. yes. during this together, paragraph 39 at the bottom of this page and going over to the next... you make the point that the science was really only one part of the decisions, that sort of suite of decisions that was going to be made. if we can skip to the next page, the end of that paragraph. you say the questions about how to respond to covid where, in my mind, huge political, ethical, moral, social and economic questions that went to the heart of the kind of country we were or wanted to be, alongside the whole set of relentlessly practical operational issues like the supply of food and medical equipment. there would be hired to choices and they should be made by elected ministers. is that part of this disagreement that you had with this phrase of following the science?— had with this phrase of following the science? , ., ., , the science? yes, i thought it was unfair in two _ the science? yes, i thought it was unfair in two directions. _ the science? yes, i thought it was unfair in two directions. never - the science? yes, i thought it was i unfair in two directions. never mind the point about what science and which scientists and does anyone understand the science? but this was going to be huge for the whole country and for everybody and it was not fair to abrogate possibility to effectively and unelected group of people and put everything on their shoulders. both because it was not fair and shoulders. both because it was not fairand right shoulders. both because it was not fair and right for them but probably more importantly it is not fair and right in terms of who these choices belong to. right in terms of who these choices belon: to. �* . right in terms of who these choices belon: to. h right in terms of who these choices belon: to. �*, ., ., belong to. let's look at a document where ou belong to. let's look at a document where you raise _ belong to. let's look at a document where you raise this _ belong to. let's look at a document where you raise this issue - belong to. let's look at a document where you raise this issue at - belong to. let's look at a document where you raise this issue at the . where you raise this issue at the time. tab six in the bundle. it is the top of that page. you are e—mailing mark sweeney in early march and in the second paragraph there is a conversation about something else and then you say btw, by the way, apart from my mini rant about the masculine town, i have some views about the way we are treating science like it is the way of god. we don't always go where the science leads us. chris whitty is exceptional, by the way, so this is not a pop at him but the answer is not a pop at him but the answer is notjust not a pop at him but the answer is not just what is not a pop at him but the answer is notjust what is rational. there is another e—mail which i won't bring up, at about the same time, when you make a similar point, that this idea of allowing the science is giving too much weight to scientific advice. . too much weight to scientific advice.- does _ too much weight to scientific advice.- does this - too much weight to scientific advice. yes. does this reflect the concerns you _ advice. yes. does this reflect the concerns you are _ advice. yes does this reflect the concerns you are expressing advice. ie3 does this reflect the concerns you are expressing at the time? it concerns you are expressing at the time? .. . concerns you are expressing at the time? ., , ., , . ., concerns you are expressing at the time? ., , ., , time? it does, it does. would you mind if i made _ time? it does, it does. would you mind if i made a _ time? it does, it does. would you mind if i made a similar _ time? it does, it does. would you mind if i made a similar point? i l mind if i made a similar point? i don't know whether later in my evidence we are going to get to talking about the grenfell fire but i can see that is on the screen. i just want to... you may see through my evidence that i am referring back to the learning i had from having been the director general for housing and planning at the time of the fire. i am always conscious that thatis the fire. i am always conscious that that is notjust policy experience, it was a tragedy that happened in our city and 72 people lost their lives and a lot of other people's lives and a lot of other people's lives were profoundly changed by that and i wouldn't want anybody to see what i was saying or hear what i'm saying and not think that i don't acknowledge that as a separate thing. i think it isjust important to make that clear.— thing. i think it isjust important to make that clear. well, thank you. we see that- — to make that clear. well, thank you. we see that. last _ to make that clear. well, thank you. we see that. last thing _ to make that clear. well, thank you. we see that. last thing i _ to make that clear. well, thank you. we see that. last thing i wanted - to make that clear. well, thank you. we see that. last thing i wanted to l we see that. last thing i wanted to ask you about, this, though, is what we see here is you talking to mark sweeney, who was another senior civil servant in the cabinet office, about following the science. is this something you took up with boris johnson or elected politicians, saying, expressing the type of views you have described today, and which you have described today, and which you seem to have been e—mailing mark sweeney about? i you seem to have been e-mailing mark sweeney about?— sweeney about? i don't remember raisin it sweeney about? i don't remember raising it with _ sweeney about? i don't remember raising it with mr _ sweeney about? i don't remember raising it with mrjohnson - sweeney about? i don't remember raising it with mrjohnson but - sweeney about? i don't remember raising it with mrjohnson but i - sweeney about? i don't remember raising it with mrjohnson but i did| raising it with mrjohnson but i did see him regularly and felt very comfortable with being able to say what i thought to him and asking questions. so it is perfectly possible i would have said, what does this even mean, what is the science? fir does this even mean, what is the science? ... does this even mean, what is the science?_ i - does this even mean, what is the science?_ i can't i science? or something. i can't remember— science? or something. i can't remember a — science? or something. i can't remember a specific _ science? or something. i can't remember a specific instance i science? or something. i can't i remember a specific instance that science? or something. i can't - remember a specific instance that it will be very surprising to me to have felt so clearly about something for a number of weeks and not to have set it to him. i for a number of weeks and not to have set it to him.— have set it to him. i would have done. have set it to him. i would have done- yeah- — have set it to him. i would have done. yeah. let's _ have set it to him. i would have done. yeah. let's move - have set it to him. i would have done. yeah. let's move on - have set it to him. i would have done. yeah. let's move on in l have set it to him. i would have i done. yeah. let's move on in the chronology, ms macnamara. i want to ask you about that period in the middle of march. we have certainly had a lot of evidence yesterday about that time when the strategy changed. as you subsequently discovered, you were in fact coming down with covid yourself on friday the 13th, saturday the 14th of march. and i think it is right that... wasn't the saturday that was your last day the cabinet office then you dialled into some meetings on the sunday? i then you dialled into some meetings on the sunday?— then you dialled into some meetings on the sunday? i work from home all day sunday. — on the sunday? i work from home all day sunday. but _ on the sunday? i work from home all day sunday, but decided _ on the sunday? i work from home all day sunday, but decided not - on the sunday? i work from home all day sunday, but decided not to - on the sunday? i work from home all day sunday, but decided not to go i on the sunday? i work from home all day sunday, but decided not to go to| day sunday, but decided not to go to the office because i was aware i might have the virus by then. 50 the office because i was aware i might have the virus by then. so we will bear that _ might have the virus by then. so we will bear that in _ might have the virus by then. so we will bear that in mind. _ might have the virus by then. so we will bear that in mind. but - might have the virus by then. so we will bear that in mind. but with i will bear that in mind. but with that in mind, let's look at page 32 of your statement, please, that in mind, let's look at page 32 of yourstatement, please, paragraph 60, bottom of the page. and you quote their the account which mr cummings has given of that occasion towards the end of the day on friday the 13th of march. where you... you walk in... as we will come to see, perhaps we should have touched on this earlier, we have heard about downing street and the cabinet office being, as it were, place is very close to each other but with separate organisations. you are based in the cabinet office, where you not? but spent much of your time in downing street.— you not? but spent much of your time in downing street. yes. and the account that _ in downing street. yes. and the account that mr _ in downing street. ie3 and the account that mr cummings has given is that... is of you walking from the cabinet office into downing street, in fact into the prime minister's study that evening. he was not there, the prime minister, but you saying, and this is his account but i think you agree with it, that you had just been talking to mark sweeney, whose name we have just seen, who was in charge of coordinating the department of health —— with the department of health. mr sweeney had said, but you are reporting it, he said, i have been told for years there is a whole plan for this. there is no plan. we are in huge trouble. and then you said, express your view. are in huge trouble. and then you said, express yourview. i are in huge trouble. and then you said, express your view. i have come through here to the prime minister's office to tell you all i think we are absolutely expletive. i think the country is heading for disaster. i think we're going to kill thousands of people. as soon as i was told that i have come to you. it seems from the conversation you are having that that is correct stop give or take a few words. is it right that that is an accurate account? . right that that is an accurate account?- it _ right that that is an accurate account?- it is - right that that is an accurate account?- it is very i right that that is an accurate account? yes. it is very striking. yes. no doubt _ account? yes. it is very striking. yes. no doubt you _ account? yes. it is very striking. yes. no doubt you can _ account? yes. it is very striking. yes. no doubt you can still- account? yes. it is very striking. i yes. no doubt you can still remember that moment — yes. no doubt you can still remember that moment of _ yes. no doubt you can still remember that moment of realisation. _ yes. no doubt you can still remember that moment of realisation. yes, i yes. no doubt you can still remember that moment of realisation. yes, it i that moment of realisation. yes, it was horrible- _ that moment of realisation. yes, it was horrible. so _ that moment of realisation. yes, it was horrible. so i _ that moment of realisation. yes, it was horrible. so i think... - that moment of realisation. yes, it was horrible. so i think... you i was horrible. so i think... you heard from mr cummings yesterday, i think, that in effect, and either side of the link door, the door between downing street and the cabinet office, and my office was just above it, that we had been sort of going through the same process, i think, in those previous two weeks, in the sense that there was increasing concern, that actually we really —— we were really radically in the wrong place and my experience that friday, when i started with the morning meeting in downing street, i think, and then i had done another briefing with the opposition, where their concerns, all the opposition parties and their concerns, they were entirely valid and their anxieties were so clear and high and ifelt anxieties were so clear and high and i felt listening anxieties were so clear and high and ifelt listening to the anxieties were so clear and high and i felt listening to the government side and my side of the table, i was more aligned rather than reassured at the end of that eating and so i had spent most of the day that friday on top of all the other things we have been doing the previous week, it really trying to gauge how much other i thought we had. and it was a sense of foreboding, like i hope nobody in that office has that again, actually. it was a very, very scary experience but i felt that it wasn't in any doubt in my mind at that point that we were heading for a total disaster and what we had to do was do everything in our power to make it impact as little as possible in the time we had available, in the circumstances that we were, not what would have been better weeks and weeks ago, but from that moment on, what we were going to collectively do. . .. what we were going to collectively do. . ., , do. the context, then, is the government _ do. the context, then, is the government has _ do. the context, then, is the government has a _ do. the context, then, is the government has a strategy, i do. the context, then, is the | government has a strategy, it do. the context, then, is the i government has a strategy, it is in the action plan, it is contained, delay, mitigate, squashing the sombrero. and, as we read this account, what was the real tipping point for you was suddenly realising the complete lack of any supporting planning to make that policy work, is that right? it is planning to make that policy work, is that right?_ is that right? it is more that the scale of what — is that right? it is more that the scale of what was _ is that right? it is more that the scale of what was going - is that right? it is more that the scale of what was going to i is that right? it is more that the scale of what was going to have | is that right? it is more that the i scale of what was going to have to happen, i think, scale of what was going to have to happen, ithink, wasjust scale of what was going to have to happen, i think, wasjust so outside of what anybody thought might be necessary. you will have people before you who are much more familiar with the planning, as it was. but the fact that we would have to effectively ask everybody in the country to stay at home, and the impact that that would have. it is one of the thing is, if you work in government, you canjust start one of the thing is, if you work in government, you can just start to imagine all of the consequentials that will be for, what are you going to do about the prison service, what are you going to do about all of the other bits of public service, what about people who are vulnerable? you can just about people who are vulnerable? you canjust imagine, and i remember feeling this kind of explosion of all of the questions that we would need to be able to answer, and my fear that we wouldn't be able to answer them, and so we would be trying to deal with these two things. we have got accustomed to talking about lockdown is and we all lived through it, but if you go back to what it felt like that time in march, it is sort of inconceivable that he would in fact do what we then went on to do, and i heard a little bit about, should we have locked down earlier? we could not have gone any faster in a safe way, i don't believe, from that day. now, could all sorts of other things have been different beforehand? i am pretty sure, yes, of course, but the scale of the undertaking was absolutely enormous, and i think once we got used to sort of imagining you could lock down and open up and lock and open up... there was nothing like that, we didn't... there was not a manual or a playbook or anything. i didn't. .. there was not a manual or a playbook or anything.— a playbook or anything. i 'ust want to exlore a playbook or anything. i 'ust want to explore this i a playbook or anything. i 'ust want to explore this issue. i a playbook or anything. i just want to explore this issue. you - a playbook or anything. i just want to explore this issue. you said i to explore this issue. you said there that part of your thinking on this day was there was going to be a need to lock and how it was that going to happen? as i said —— look out lockdown. the plan at the time is there wouldn't be a lockdown. the plan was squashing this one barrel —— out the sombrero. what we have heard from mr cummings and others is what made them realise at very much this time, that they would need to be a change, was that the plan, the mitigation plan, would not work because the nhs would be overwhelmed. and it simply... it simply could not be done because it would involve too many that is not quite what you have put here and i wonder whether it was in your mind more moro zoo said to do with the scale of the planning that was going to be needed. i with the scale of the planning that was going to be needed.— with the scale of the planning that was going to be needed. i think that is a fair distinction. _ was going to be needed. i think that is a fair distinction. definitely i is a fair distinction. definitely the conversation i went on to have with mr cummings and mr glasper and in number10, i with mr cummings and mr glasper and in number 10, i understand from that conversation much more there wasn't going to be this peak that we were going to be this peak that we were going to be this peak that we were going to get through or squash, there was going to be a long and sustained period of time, but i think at this time i didn't feel i had a very good understanding of what a virus would be, i didn't have a good understanding of the

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