and what that then meant for public confidence in the rules.— confidence in the rules. it is due to resume _ confidence in the rules. it is due to resume again _ confidence in the rules. it is due to resume again shortly. - confidence in the rules. it is due to resume again shortly. can - confidence in the rules. it is due| to resume again shortly. can you tell us, we are expecting to hear from helen mcnamara this morning. who is expecting to give evidence this afternoon? we who is expecting to give evidence this afternoon?— who is expecting to give evidence this afternoon? ~ ., ., ., ., this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist _ this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist who _ this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist who was _ this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist who was looking - this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist who was looking at| from a specialist who was looking at behavioural science whose name i have completely forgotten, so i will find that out for you next time. but we are going to hear about in essence decisions that were made and how they were communicated. but whether the british public would go for it. so i think it is going to be interesting. less political, although obviously political in terms of the decisions that were being made and therefore whether they would be implemented by, whether the great british public would be able to actually do them. so i think it is quite an interesting conversation there about lockdown is, whether people believe in it and whether they would be prepared to give up their liberty. as you say, political this morning, but we get into the broader point this afternoon. you but we get into the broader point this afternoon.— but we get into the broader point this afternoon. you are very much for: iven this afternoon. you are very much forgiven for— this afternoon. you are very much forgiven for forgetting _ this afternoon. you are very much forgiven for forgetting his - this afternoon. you are very much forgiven for forgetting his name, | forgiven forforgetting his name, because there are hundreds of people giving evidence at this inquiry, and it is expected to go on for years. can you tell us more broadly what the aim is, how long is it expected to go for and what of the big names we might hearfrom before to go for and what of the big names we might hear from before the end to go for and what of the big names we might hearfrom before the end of the year. we might hear from before the end of the ear. ., , ., , ., the year. there have been lots and lots of names, _ the year. there have been lots and lots of names, and _ the year. there have been lots and lots of names, and of— the year. there have been lots and lots of names, and of course - the year. there have been lots and lots of names, and of course this l the year. there have been lots and| lots of names, and of course this is module two of the broader inquiry, so module one was about how britain was prepared in the run—up to the pandemic, and this module is about decision—making during orjust decision—making during or just before decision—making during orjust before the pandemic, so january 2020 onwards, and there have been three weeks worth of evidence, three and a half weeks, in this particular bit. i think we have another four or five weeks to go for this part, and baroness hallett said all along that she will announce recommendations or give interim recommendations as we 90, give interim recommendations as we go, but the full recommendations of this inquiry won't be made public for a few years. the running joke if you like is that is longer than the pandemic itself took. but honestly the whole point of this is to learn lessons. no one can be punished for what they did during the pandemic, although of course a little bit of public humiliation in the courtroom there, or what seems like a courtroom, seems to be a bit of a by—product. baroness hallett very much keen to learn lessons because, as she said, she has learned enough lessons to say that the next pandemic is a question of when not if, so there is time to learn the lessons, which is why you are getting to the decision—making processes and also the structures and whether they were right, and loads of different elements that all need to be brought together. so there are plenty of critics that are worried about the timing, how long this is going to take, how much money it has cost to go through all this evidence, but there is plenty of evidence to go through, and it is notjust do politicians make the right call, there are loads of other areas being looked at too. le. right call, there are loads of other areas being looked at too.- areas being looked at too. le, we can 'ust areas being looked at too. le, we can just see _ areas being looked at too. le, we can just see the — areas being looked at too. le, we can just see the inquiry _ areas being looked at too. le, we can just see the inquiry is - areas being looked at too. le, we can just see the inquiry is about l areas being looked at too. le, we | can just see the inquiry is about to resume, so we will listen in. ido i do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth... and just a warning that this is a live hearing coming into the bbc, and it may contain some offensive language. could you give us your full name, please? could you give us your full name, lease? a ., ., ., could you give us your full name, please?— you i could you give us your full name, i please?_ you have please? helen mcnamara. you have --reared please? helen mcnamara. you have reared a please? helen mcnamara. you have prepared a witness _ please? helen mcnamara. you have prepared a witness statement - please? helen mcnamara. you have prepared a witness statement which | prepared a witness statement which is up on screen. i know that you are very familiar with the content of that. let me ask you first of all, other contents of that statement is true? you detail in some depth your civil service career and your witness statement. in summary, it is right, isn't it, that you joined civil service in 2002, having worked in the private sector before that. it is. you the private sector before that. it is- you then _ the private sector before that. it is. you then spent _ the private sector before that. it is. you then spent the _ the private sector before that. it is. you then spent the first - the private sector before that. it is. you then spent the first 11 - the private sector before that. it is. you then spent the first 11 or| is. you then spent the first 11 or so ears is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of— is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of your _ is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of your time _ is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of your time in - is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of your time in the - is. you then spent the first 11 orj so years of your time in the civil service working at various grades in the dcms. , ., �* , service working at various grades in the dcms-— after i the dcms. yes, that's right. after that, so the dcms. yes, that's right. after that. so from _ the dcms. yes, that's right. after that, so from 2013, _ the dcms. yes, that's right. after that, so from 2013, you _ the dcms. yes, that's right. after that, so from 2013, you then - the dcms. yes, that's right. afterl that, so from 2013, you then spent two spells in the cabinet office. both are about three years, so from 2013-2016 and both are about three years, so from 2013—2016 and then both are about three years, so from 2013-2016 and then 2018-2021, and between those you spent some time in the ministry of housing and communities and local government as it was then called?— it was then called? that's right. when you _ it was then called? that's right. when you joined _ it was then called? that's right. when you joined the _ it was then called? that's right. when you joined the cabinet - it was then called? that's right. i when you joined the cabinet office in 2018, so for that last period, you were appointed initially to the post of director—general of propriety and ethics in the cabinet office, but i think it is right that within a few weeks or a month or so of you starting thatjob, your role has expanded to become the cabinet secretary's deputy. yes. has expanded to become the cabinet secretary's deputy-— secretary's deputy. yes, that's ri . ht, secretary's deputy. yes, that's riaht, so secretary's deputy. yes, that's right. so my — secretary's deputy. yes, that's right, so my late _ secretary's deputy. yes, that's right, so my late boss, - secretary's deputy. yes, that's right, so my late boss, lord i right, so my late boss, lord hayward, had asked me to come back to the cabinet office initially to do that role but also to take on wider responsibilities, and then unfortunately went won't offset very quickly after i got back to the cabinet office, so i then supported the temporary and then new permanent cabinet secretary lord sedwill. and then shortly after it became formalised, and sometime later you were promoted to permanent secretary level, but in effect, thatjob of deputy cabinet secretary was one that you've ended until the time you you left the cabinet office? yes. you left the cabinet office? yes, that's right- _ you left the cabinet office? yes, that's right. including _ you left the cabinet office? yes, that's right. including the i you left the cabinet office? yes, that's right. including the period | that's right. including the period in 2020 when — that's right. including the period in 2020 when as _ that's right. including the period in 2020 when as you _ that's right. including the period in 2020 when as you will i that's right. including the period i in 2020 when as you will appreciate is going to be the focus of my questions today. as you say, you supported first of all mark sedwill in his role of cabinet secretary and then as we will hear when he was replaced by simon case, you supported him as well.- replaced by simon case, you supported him as well. yes. those last three years — supported him as well. yes those last three years that you supported him as well. 1j:3 those last three years that you spent in the cabinet office, 2018—21, were a tumultuous period. theresa may's government, her efforts to secure a brexit settlement, borisjohnson brexit settlement, boris johnson becoming brexit settlement, borisjohnson becoming prime minister in 2019, everything that happened in the tail end of that year, prorogation and so on, the general election at the end of 2019 and then of course the covid pandemic. so an unusually busy town to be one of the leaders of the cabinet office.— to be one of the leaders of the cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair- it felt — cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like _ cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like a _ cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like a lot _ cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like a lot longer i cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like a lot longer than l fair. it felt like a lot longer than three years at the time. find fair. it felt like a lot longer than three years at the time.- fair. it felt like a lot longer than three years at the time. and as i sa , i'm three years at the time. and as i say. i'm going — three years at the time. and as i say. i'm going to _ three years at the time. and as i say, i'm going to focus - three years at the time. and as i say, i'm going to focus my i three years at the time. and as i i say, i'm going to focus my questions on that period of 2020. can you give us just a brief summary of what your job was then your daily routine, the types of functions that you are performing? of course we will come to hear that you had to do some extraordinary things, but what was your ordinary role at that time? do ou your ordinary role at that time? drr you want me to take january 2020, is that the best place? yes. so i was mark sedwill's _ that the best place? yes. so i was mark sedwill's deputy, and my main job was to support him in his role as cabinet secretary rather than head of the civil service, so i ran something called the central secretariat, which advised on all of the part of cabinet government, so any advice on cabinet committees or the machinery of government change, which means the structures and shape of government departments, how cabinet operates, all the kind of management of cabinet meetings, cabinet committee business, i did all of that. i also was responsible for a range of other things that probably aren't significant to the inquiry. probably aren't significant to the inuui . �* ., probably aren't significant to the inuui .�* ., ., ., , ., probably aren't significant to the inuui .~ ., ., ., , ., ., inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount — inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount of _ inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount of evidence _ inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount of evidence about i inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount of evidence about the i fair amount of evidence about the rhythm of work in the cabinet office, daily meetings with the prime minister, cabinet meetings, less frequent but still regular. did you have an involvement in those meetings?— you have an involvement in those meetings? yes, absolutely, and i would say although _ meetings? yes, absolutely, and i would say although it _ meetings? yes, absolutely, and i would say although it might i meetings? yes, absolutely, and i | would say although it might sound like an odd thing to say, and this is what i said in my statement, that in many ways is what i said in my statement, that in many wastanuary is what i said in my statement, that in many ways january 2020 really felt like the beginning of the johnson administration even though he had been in office for ten —— sometime before that, and it was the beginning of what we thought at the time was a decade ofjohnson government. i time was a decade of johnson government-— time was a decade of johnson rovernment. ., ,~' , ., ., government. i will ask you more about all of— government. i will ask you more about all of that _ government. i will ask you more about all of that in _ government. i will ask you more about all of that in a _ government. i will ask you more about all of that in a moment, i government. i will ask you more i about all of that in a moment, but before i do. i mentioned to the witness statement. it is very long. it is 100 or so pages. and it is obvious to anyone who reads it, and we will be publishing it in full, that you spent a very long time preparing it. can you give us some idea of first of all how long you did spend on it, and secondly, apart from assisting us, what you hope to achieve with your statement. i think ublic achieve with your statement. i think public inquiries _ achieve with your statement. i think public inquiries are _ achieve with your statement. i think public inquiries are important. i i public inquiries are important. i think they are essential. i think we have had the misfortune at various other points in my career to be working in the civil service where things have gone wrong, and i have always found it really important that there is a point for reflection and that you should yourself in the civil service always be asking questions about what has happened and what you could have done better, but also there is a very important part, i believe, in the way we operate public administration that there needs to sometimes be something like this today where we all have to come and explain an account for what we did on something this important and significant. it has been a real effort to put the statement together and to do the work, for lots of reasons, but it feels a lot like the least i can do in the circumstances, to be honest, and i hope that i have been able to give a fairand and i hope that i have been able to give a fair and reasonable account of what happened, and i hope that some things can be better as a result. it some things can be better as a result. . . ., ., . some things can be better as a result. , . ., ., , ., 4, result. it is clear as we will work throu . h result. it is clear as we will work through it _ result. it is clear as we will work through it that _ result. it is clear as we will work through it that you _ result. it is clear as we will work through it that you refer i result. it is clear as we will work through it that you refer to i result. it is clear as we will work through it that you refer to a i through it that you refer to a number of documents, e—mails, papers that you drafted and so on. i think it is right to say that you came across some obstacles in obtaining material that you needed for your witness statement. can you tell us something about that? i witness statement. can you tell us something about that?— something about that? i did, and i want to be — something about that? i did, and i want to be quite _ something about that? i did, and i want to be quite careful _ something about that? i did, and i want to be quite careful because i something about that? i did, and i l want to be quite careful because you will have heard already that it is very easy to bash a government department, and i'm not one in criticising the cabinet office blaming particular individuals, very much not. but it has been extraordinarily difficult to get even the most basic pieces of information to be able to serve the inquiry properly, so i feel like i have had to be my own forensic archaeologist of my time in 2020, and it has been hard enough for me to work out what was happening when, and i was there. because of the difficulties with accessing documents, accessing the right information, and because unfortunately the cabinet office deleted my work mobile phone, so i have not had access to those records either. and we will come to one or two parts of your evidence where you say you are sure that there were relevant whatsapp messages and so on that you sent, but you no longer have the because you returned your phone to the cabinet office when you left, and they have been unable to provide it back to you, and i think they have told you that, is it the phone itself that has been destroyed, or has the material been deleted? i’m has the material been deleted? i'm not has the material been deleted? i“n not entirely sure, but i definitely did ask because i know that the messages were all backed up, i asked if they could provide a simile of the phone so that i could at least see the messages, and that wasn't possible either. and i should be in reassure that most of my businesses on e—mail and it is all captured in the public record, so i don't worry that there is a huge amount of material that you are not seeing which is relative to the work that i was doing. but which is relative to the work that i was doing-— was doing. but nonetheless a frustration _ was doing. but nonetheless a frustration that _ was doing. but nonetheless a frustration that the _ was doing. but nonetheless a frustration that the phone i was doing. but nonetheless a i frustration that the phone messages weren't available. it frustration that the phone messages weren't available.— frustration that the phone messages weren't available._ lets i weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on- — weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on- i _ weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want _ weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want to _ weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want to start, i weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want to start, as i weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want to start, as you | weren't available. it is, yes. lets. move on. i want to start, as you do in your statement, i want to take this part reasonably briefly with the question of how ready the government machine was for the pandemic which developed from the start of 2020, and what i'd like to do if i may please go to paragraph 23 of your statement on page 12, which is your summary at the end of this section of your witness statement. where you say this. in summary, then, when covid arose as a concern injanuary summary, then, when covid arose as a concern in january 2020, summary, then, when covid arose as a concern injanuary 2020, the uk government was already on the back foot from another once in a generation event. key parts of the system were either subject to change or might have been and were awaiting clarification. many ministers, senior civil servants and special advisers were uncertain in their role. there was no clear business as usual pattern of working with mr johnson. the cabinet office in whitehall had developed some unhealthy habits in terms of ways of working, and it was a low trust environment in terms of relationships between the civil service and the prime minister and his political team. sojust to pick up his political team. sojust to pick up on a few of those points. first of all, the once in a generation event that you refer to was brexit. yes. ., ,., event that you refer to was brexit. yes. ., , ., ., event that you refer to was brexit. yes. ., ., ,, , ., yes. no, some other witnesses have made the point _ yes. no, some other witnesses have made the point that _ yes. no, some other witnesses have made the point that at _ yes. no, some other witnesses have made the point that at least i yes. no, some other witnesses have made the point that at least in i yes. no, some other witnesses have made the point that at least in some j made the point that at least in some respects, the experience of brexit and in particular the preparations for a no—deal brexit were valuable as a precursor to the experience of the pandemic. first of all, do you agree with that, and secondly, if so, what is the wider point you are making about the if you like deficit of the brexit experience? first. of the brexit experience? first, es, of the brexit experience? first, yes. absolutely _ of the brexit experience? first, yes, absolutely agree _ of the brexit experience? first, yes, absolutely agree that i of the brexit experience? first, yes, absolutely agree that the i of the brexit experience? first, i yes, absolutely agree that the no deal preparations and the experience of doing the no deal preparations was immensely valuable, and in retrospect it is one of the frustrations when i think about whether i should have been more reflective at the time that we knew how hard that had been, how unnatural it had been for whitehall to have to think across a whole system, and think about things we weren't practised in doing, and work collectively across a huge range of operational and policy areas, and it had been very difficult to start off with. and then over that preceding year, and then particularly in large part when borisjohnson became prime minister, the team had focused very hard and done an enormous amount of good work that did stand us in very good work that did stand us in very good stead. but we sort of somehow hadn't clocked that we were kind of two years previously on covid, if i can use that as an example, so, yes. but the wider deficit i think is partly, and i should make the point this is nothing to do with whether the country decided to leave the eu or not, my point is entirely about the whitehall and westminster response, and particularly the whitehall structures had been bent out of shape by a series of things that had happened, so the business as usual model of the cabinet office that lots of people who worked in the centre of government would recognise wasn't really there for all sorts of reasons injanuary 2020. there was also, when i talk about uncertainty which might be the most useful point in here to highlight, there hadn't been a significant cabinet meeting after the 2019 election. the election had fallen right at the end of december, really, and the prime minister had wanted to take some time and to consider some quite substantial machinery of government changes potentially before deciding who to put in which cabinetjobs. so this period, and i think the reshuffle then came quite late into that february, it was the friday before the house rose for the half term recess. so they were an awful lot of people who weren't sure whatjobs they had, and this is particularly uncertainty on the political side obviously, but also on the civil service, given the potentialfor large amounts of machinery of government change, and i think it has been mentioned before, but there was again a lot of hostile briefing about the civil service which was making people feel uncomfortable, and at this time there was what was happening in the home office with the then home secretary and the permanent secretary. that the then home secretary and the permanent secretary.— permanent secretary. that is a reference _ permanent secretary. that is a reference to _ permanent secretary. that is a reference to the _ permanent secretary. that is a reference to the falling i permanent secretary. that is a reference to the falling out i permanent secretary. that is a i reference to the falling out between priti patel and the permanent secretary mr rutten, and that is an issue that you yourself were asked to take some rolling, you investigated allegations of bullying, and that was something that was going on very much this time. . that was going on very much this time-- you _ that was going on very much this time. yes. you mentioned there also, ou sa time. yes. you mentioned there also, you say there — time. yes. you mentioned there also, you say there was _ time. 1:3 you mentioned there also, you say there was no clear pattern of working with mrjohnson, this is something we will come back to. but was that an extraordinary matter? that is a very good question. i'm not sure whether there would ever have been a normal pattern of working for mrjohnson. but i do know that the kind of monomaniacal focus of him for reasons which i'm sure that they would happily give on just focusing on eu exit from july 2019, and then getting to the election meant that the way it was communicated to us was that everything else could wait until after this question was subtle, and then there was going to come a very large amount of change, and we were just not sure what that change was ever going to be. hand just not sure what that change was ever going to be.— ever going to be. and 'ust going back to the h ever going to be. and 'ust going back to the beginning i ever going to be. and just going back to the beginning of- ever going to be. and just going back to the beginning of this i back to the beginning of this paragraph, these are all matters that you say contributed to this sense of being on the back foot at the beginning of that year, and that was one of them, was it? and the beginning of that year, and that was one of them, was it? and lastly, here, ou was one of them, was it? and lastly, here. you talk _ was one of them, was it? and lastly, here, you talk about _ was one of them, was it? and lastly, here, you talk about unhealthy i here, you talk about unhealthy habits that had developed in the cabinet office and whitehall. during the previous period. was one of those the sense of bypassing cabinet government? yes. i those the sense of bypassing cabinet government? yes.— government? yes. i won't ask any more about — government? yes. i won't ask any more about that, _ government? yes. i won't ask any more about that, i'm _ government? yes. i won't ask any more about that, i'm going i government? yes. i won't ask any more about that, i'm going to i government? yes. i won't ask any i more about that, i'm going to come back to that in due course. let's move on. i want to ask you then about those early months of 2020, and the emergence of the pandemic. the inquiry has now heard a lot of evidence about what took place in january, february and march of that year. the developing understanding both of the scientists and people at the centre of government, of the virus, sage meetings, cobra meetings and so on. can you just give us an insight into how the pandemic impinged on your own work as you went about no doubt many other things in the cabinet office in that period? oi things in the cabinet office in that eriod? . ., , things in the cabinet office in that eriod? _, , period? of course. so we were obviously _ period? of course. so we were obviously aware _ period? of course. so we were obviously aware that _ period? of course. so we were obviously aware that there i period? of course. so we werej obviously aware that there was period? of course. so we were i obviously aware that there was this emerging problem. probably the most visibility i personally had of that was via the cabinet secretary's monday morning meeting, so as a suspect is normal everywhere, he would gather his top team together and that was the place that from very early injanuary i remember first hearing about the response to the virus, which was very much framed as an international rather than a domestic problem at that point, and then i occasionally attended the morning meeting on the half of the cabinet secretary, the prime minister's daily meeting, and we would have picked it up from their end of the cabinet, so as well as being somebody who could see what was happening in the world, it was in the cabinet office that i first understood what was happening. just to be clear about this, we have already established what your role was, you have told us at least one other thing that was taking up your time during that period, the issue around priti patel and her permanent secretary. but we shouldn't get the idea, should we, that it was part of yourjob to deal with covid. you were at a higher level than that, overseeing the entire work of the cabinet office, is that a fair way of putting it?— of putting it? this is probably auoin to of putting it? this is probably going to much _ of putting it? this is probably going to much into _ of putting it? this is probably going to much into civil i of putting it? this is probably. going to much into civil service structures, but there is a separate permanent secretary of the cabinet office. what i was overseeing was the old—fashioned operation of government. i wasn't ever responsible for any of the teams who were preparing for or running crisis response. i had no direct line management over any of these teams, no. �* ., . management over any of these teams, no. �* ., , , ., management over any of these teams, no. �* management over any of these teams, no. , management over any of these teams, no. but as you say, in the course of attendin: no. but as you say, in the course of attending these _ no. but as you say, in the course of attending these meetings - no. but as you say, in the course of attending these meetings and i no. but as you say, in the course of attending these meetings and no i attending these meetings and no doubt simply being in downing street and the cabinet office, you certainly became aware of the pandemic and the way in which it was being treated. i would like to take you to just a couple of references in your statement about this. first of all, paragraph 2a of your statement, which is on page 13, and here you are discussing that part of your role which involved drafting briefs for the cabinet, for the prime minister, for his cabinet meetings, and picking it up towards the bottom of that paragraph, about six or seven lines up from the bottom, you say, in practice, in this case the tone of the cabinet briefs on the coronavirus and in particular the injections of caution i made about the uncertainty of the picture, did not register with mr johnson. he rarely referred to the brief. in those early cabinet meetings in particular, mrjohnson was very confident that the uk would sail through, and we should all be careful of over correcting in advance of something that was unlikely to have a huge impact, and for which in any case we were well prepared. just to get the timing clear at the beginning of that paragraph, you say we are talking now about january and february? was that your experience of mrjohnson's early approach to the disease? yes. it was a early approach to the disease? yes. it was a pretty _ early approach to the disease? yes. it was a pretty confident _ early approach to the disease? 1:3 it was a pretty confident climate in general, so it wasn't unusual for the message that we were going to be great at it to be the kind of general overriding message of anything that was brought before the cabinet. just anything that was brought before the cabinet. , . . anything that was brought before the cabinet. , , , , cabinet. just pause there, because there is another _ cabinet. just pause there, because there is another passage _ cabinet. just pause there, because there is another passage i i cabinet. just pause there, because there is another passage i wanted | cabinet. just pause there, because i there is another passage i wanted to ask you to look at, which is on page 50, the last few lines of paragraph 27. i think this really picks up the point you werejust 27. i think this really picks up the point you were just making, miss macnamara. you're talking about being at the early morning meetings, and you said during this period, the atmosphere during the early morning meetings was confident at match oh. this in itself was not a new thing, but it seemed more than usual. we were going to be world beating at conquering covid—i9 as well as everything else. what you mean by that? , ., ., , everything else. what you mean by that? , ., , ~ everything else. what you mean by that? , ., , ,, ., that? just that it was striking that somethin: that? just that it was striking that something that _ that? just that it was striking that something that i _ that? just that it was striking that something that i felt _ that? just that it was striking that something that i felt personally i that? just that it was striking that i something that i felt personally was obviously deeply worrying, that there was a sort of de facto assumption that we were going to be great without any of the hesitancy or questioning or that sort of behind closed doors bit of government which isn't about saying everything is smashing and going brilliantly, but actually being a bit more reflective and checking that everything is going to be quite as great as we'd like it to be, and that tone in my observation from these discussions, was just completely and utterly absent. and completely and utterly absent. and movin: on completely and utterly absent. and moving on further down this page, paragraph 29, you refer to one particular incident, which obviously was one that he remembered. now we are in early march, and you have linked it to the day when there was an issue about the prime minister shaking hands at the hospital, which we know was the 3rd of march, so you are right, it is early march. and picking it up about five or six lines down, you refer to the jovial tone, but the jovial tone, lines down, you refer to the jovial tone, but thejovial tone, the lines down, you refer to the jovial tone, but the jovial tone, the view that in implementing containment measures and suspending work and schooling, the italians were overreacting, and the breezy confidence that we would do better than others had jarred with me. and just carrying on, you describe raising at this meeting concerns that you had essentially picked up at the school gate or on your parents' what —— whatsapps, and saying that we should pause for a moment. at chris whitty supporting you. and then if we could just finish off, if we go over the page, you say that after that moment, shortly after the conversation went back to the assertion that we were so well prepared, we shouldn't panic, and you say you left the room even more concerned that we were in the wrong place tonally, feeling i had been patronised to raising the point, and i was particularly bothered by the supreme confidence i had heard. ithink... yes, i think... yes, i ithink... yes, i mean that i think... yes, i mean that is accurate. the thing i was most concerned about at the time was i thought people really wanted to know the right thing to do. i wanted to know the right thing to do. should we be keeping our children off school if they had a cough? should we be seeing vulnerable people and grandparents? it wasn't clear, and i happen to have great faith and confidence that most of the time people will do the right thing, and ifelt it people will do the right thing, and i felt it was that disconnect that i felt so strongly, but actually if we could just tell people what the right and kind and proper thing to do is, people would do that, and sitting there and saying it was great, and sort of laughing at the italians, itjust felt how it sounds. italians, it 'ust felt how it sounds. ., italians, it 'ust felt how it sounsd— italians, it 'ust felt how it sounds. ., ., ., , sounds. you may have answered in art m sounds. you may have answered in part my next _ sounds. you may have answered in part my next question, _ sounds. you may have answered in part my next question, because i i part my next question, because i wanted to ask you whether this was just sort of macho posturing, or whether it had an effect on policy, and is it the case, then, do you think, that this approach you are describing slowed down or even prevented the government from doing perhaps the messaging that it ought to have done? i perhaps the messaging that it ought to have done?— to have done? i think it would be cuite to have done? i think it would be quite hard _ to have done? i think it would be quite hard for — to have done? i think it would be quite hard for me _ to have done? i think it would be quite hard for me to _ to have done? i think it would be quite hard for me to know, i to have done? i think it would be i quite hard for me to know, because there is, if you are in that sort of meeting with that sort of prime minister in that sort of environment, it is quite hard to be the person who injects a note of caution or says, i'm not really sure about this, so i can't say that it wasn't, i can't presume that because that's what i heard that elsewhere there weren't also people saying, hang on a second. i imagine that there were, actually. that is whether they were heard or not but i think is the question, and i would say undoubtedly that the sort of unbelievably bullish, we are going to be great at everything, approach is not a smart mentality to have inside a government meeting. i want to 'ust look inside a government meeting. i want to just look at _ inside a government meeting. i want to just look at another _ inside a government meeting. i want to just look at another part _ inside a government meeting. i want to just look at another part of- inside a government meeting. i want to just look at another part of your i to just look at another part of your witness statement, which relates to something that was going on at the same time. it's the question of your response to the way in which restrictions about football matches were addressed. it is page 29, paragraph 52. so you refer in fact to the 2nd of march, perhaps a day or two before that meeting we were just discussing. and you say then that you attended both the prime minister at�*s morning meeting and also a briefing for opposition front bench politicians and as we will come to see that was another of your duties. yes. ., , . , ., , see that was another of your duties. yes. ., ,. , ., , ., ., yes. you describe that this was at a time when — yes. you describe that this was at a time when there _ yes. you describe that this was at a time when there was _ yes. you describe that this was at a time when there was an _ yes. you describe that this was at a time when there was an issue i yes. you describe that this was at a time when there was an issue as i yes. you describe that this was at a time when there was an issue as to | time when there was an issue as to whether attendance at football matches should be restricted and the government policy was that it was not necessary because everyone was outdoors and you had concerns about this, which was in part prompted by a discussion with opposition politicians.— a discussion with opposition oliticians. ., �* . j politicians. that's right. align bells and start _ politicians. that's right. align bells and start really i politicians. that's right. align bells and start really ringing l politicians. that's right. alignl bells and start really ringing in politicians. that's right. align i bells and start really ringing in my mind. it

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