Transcripts For BBCNEWS Newsnight 20240703

For new homes in pockets that are underdeveloped in towns and cities and the prospect of some new towns as well. Keir starmer� s speech is just after lunchtime tomorrow. Time for a look at the weather. Translation i assure you, dear citizens, at the end of the campaign, all our enemies will know that it was a terrible mistake to attack israel. Explosion what is done to our enemies in the coming days will resonate with them for generations. As israel pounds targets in gaza, hamas threatens to kill israeli it says it will murder its is really hot hostages if more bombs drop without warning. Well be asking our israeli guests whether theres any alternative to the new siege of gaza announced today. And from here in liverpool, where we are covering the Labour Party Conference, well be discussing how the attack on israel impacts both israel and gaza, and if it is likely to lead to a wider conflict in the middle east. Well be joined by the palestinian representive to the uk, who learned this afternoon that six members of his family in gaza have been killed, and hearing from the historian and cultural commentator simon schama, whose four nephews in tel aviv have been called up. 350,000 of us in the uk absolutely feel part of the broader family ofjews, so what has happened, really, opens the wounded memory. And at what is most likely to be the labour partys final conference before the general election, today has been the day The Shadow Chancellor made her pitch for being the party of fiscal rigour, sound economics, and business. It falls to us to show that labour are ready to serve, ready to lead and ready to rebuild britain ill be speaking to the shadow cabinet minister peter kyle. Good evening from jerusalem apps up to the magnitude of the weekends events has really begun to sink in and the enormity of the consequences has started to unfold. Israelis have been mere Hearing Stories about what happened when hamas gunman erupted into the south of their country. The last messages of babies left orphaned and of grandmothers being dragged back to captivity gaza. Palestinians have started to feel terrifying bombardments, they have heard about the whole family, extended family being wiped out. And look ahead to the coming days of siege with trepidation. It is an enormous conflict that is under way. Israels loss of life on saturday now estimated at more than 900 is the gravest in the countrys history. It is clear its response will be of similar magnitude. The train of violence is gathering pace here. And with that lives being consumed at shocking speed. Hundreds of strikes today in gaza by israel. And hundreds of rockets fired back by hamas. And other kinds of escalation also. Israeli. Cutting off power and water. Hamas threatening to kill the hostages it took at the weekend. Translation we hostages it took at the weekend. Translation hostages it took at the weekend. Translation ~. ,. , translation we announce that from now on every translation we announce that from now on every targeting translation we announce that from now on every targeting of translation we announce that from now on every targeting of our translation we announce that from now on every targeting of our people i now on every targeting of our people without warning will regrettably be met with the execution of one of the enemy civilian hostages. We will be compelled to broadcast it in both audio and video. Compelled to broadcast it in both audio and video. ,. , ,. Audio and video. Today we stopped at an Israeli Centre audio and video. Today we stopped at an Israeli Centre where audio and video. Today we stopped at an Israeli Centre where they audio and video. Today we stopped at an Israeli Centre where they are an Israeli Centre where they are trying to trace people missing. 0ne Social Worker told us that out of hundreds of families who have been in touch, she has only seen one happy outcome. Translation this situation is happy outcome. Translation Ti 3 Situation is unbelievable. Totally out of the ordinary for every social worker. There are stories here that will rip your heart out. All families that have gone missing, children have called their parents, cried for help but align just group. There are kids shouting and gunshots. Really bad stories that will stay with me for years. find gunshots. Really bad stories that will stay with me for years. And in tel aviv earlier will stay with me for years. And in tel aviv earlier today, will stay with me for years. And in tel aviv earlier today, the will stay with me for years. And in tel aviv earlier today, the feeling | tel aviv earlier today, the feeling of a calm before the storm. This is rush hour in a prosperous suburb of tel aviv. Almost none of the businesses are open. The nation is still in a state of trauma. And in the process of mobilising 300,000 troops. And underlying this still, the feeling among the Security Threats that unless a spell of israeli competence has been broken and that will embolden others. What and that will embolden others. What will be the and that will embolden others. � w� iat will be the explanations and and that will embolden others. Livisgt will be the explanations and excuses that will be given to the public, the assumption that the Israeli Intelligence is so effective and the assumption that the Israeli Defence forces is capable, at least to defend effectively our borders will disappear. The defend effectively our borders will disa ear. ,. ,. Disappear. The price of failure, the indiscriminate disappear. The price of failure, the Indiscriminate Slaughter disappear. The price of failure, the Indiscriminate Slaughter of disappear. The price of failure, the Indiscriminate Slaughter of so disappear. The price of failure, the | Indiscriminate Slaughter of so many israelis, for example at the sight of a rape where more than 260 music fans were killed by hamas. Many of those lost the site of a rave. Vivian silver disappeared from her kibbutz on saturday. A lifelong older bridges with palestinians and campaignerfor older bridges with palestinians and campaigner for long pilots. Older bridges with palestinians and campaignerfor long pilots. Campaigner for long pilots. Non violence. Campaigner for long pilots. Nonviolence. Campaigner for long pilots. Nonviolence. She is a real peace lover and nonviolence. She is a real peace lover and activist. Nonviolence. She is a real peace lover and activist. She nonviolence. She is a real peace lover and activist. She drives nonviolence. She is a real peace lover and activist. She drives to l lover and activist. She drives to the gaza lover and activist. She drives to the gaza border, picks up sick people the gaza border, picks up sick people and drives them to hospitals in lsraeh people and drives them to hospitals in israel. And she doesnt stop working in israel. And she doesnt stop working and she doesnt give up. She really working and she doesnt give up. She really hopes working and she doesnt give up. She really hopes to bring peace. But working and she doesnt give up. She really hopes to bring peace. Really hopes to bring peace. But now Vivian Silver really hopes to bring peace. But now Vivian Silver is really hopes to bring peace. But now Vivian Silver is believed really hopes to bring peace. But now Vivian Silver is believed to really hopes to bring peace. But now Vivian Silver is believed to be Vivian Silver is believed to be among those kidnapped by hamas. It among those kidnapped by hamas. It is ridiculous that such a person should is ridiculous that such a person should end up giving her life in wan should end up giving her life in wan for should end up giving her life in wan for in should end up giving her life in war. For in a battle or i dont know what to war. For in a battle or i dont know what to call war. For in a battle or i dont know what to call this thing. A person who really what to call this thing. A person who really does only good. The retaliation who really does only good. The retaliation has who really does only good. Tte retaliation has started, with more than 100,000 people in gaza are fleeing their homes, directed by israel away from the areas of heavier strikes. Israel away from the areas of heavierstrikes. Even israel away from the areas of heavier strikes. Even so tonight the death toll in gaza is well over 700 according to the Health Ministry there. ~. , according to the Health Ministry there. ~. , according to the Health Ministry there. , , there. We are lacking simply everything there. We are lacking simply everything to there. We are lacking simply everything to stop there. We are lacking simply everything to stop people i there. We are lacking simply everything to stop people in| there. We are lacking simply everything to stop people in gaza like food and medical supplies, like unitarian aid and lack of supply. Electricity now is only available four hours a day. All hospitals rely on generators. Some of them were only to fuel will last a couple of days. So if escalation is going to be continued, we are heading absolutely towards a humanitarian crisis. Louie absolutely towards a humanitarian crisis. ~. ,. Crisis. We do understand that in order to bring crisis. We do understand that in order to bring hamas crisis. We do understand that in order to bring hamas to crisis. We do understand that in order to bring hamas to a crisis. We do understand that in| order to bring hamas to a phase crisis. We do understand that in i order to bring hamas to a phase of defeat, order to bring hamas to a phase of defeat, we order to bring hamas to a phase of defeat, we will probably need to create defeat, we will probably need to create a defeat, we will probably need to create a huge economic and humanitarian crisis in gaza, where hundreds humanitarian crisis in gaza, where hundreds of humanitarian crisis in gaza, where Hundreds Of Thousands of people might Hundreds Of Thousands of people might start and might not have the energy might start and might not have the energy in might start and might not have the energy in gasoline but also water in food, energy in gasoline but also water in food, and energy in gasoline but also water in food, and only pressure like this might food, and only pressure like this might bring to something that israel will he might bring to something that israel will be able later to say we took all the will be able later to say we took all the measures, we win this enemy, and anyone all the measures, we win this enemy, and anyone else will try us, will face and anyone else will try us, will face a and anyone else will try us, will face a very and anyone else will try us, will face a very similar result. The israeli drive face a very similar result. The israeli drive to face a very similar result. Tte israeli drive to bring hamas to its Kneesis Israeli Drive to bring hamas to its knees is just beginning. Israeli drive to bring hamas to its knees isjust beginning. There is no doubt that all kinds of people in gaza will suffer, not least because of the siege now under way. As for whether armed groups in the west bank, lebanon or elsewhere will let that happen withoutjoining the fight, few here imagine that will be the case. In a few minutes kirsty will be talking to the Palestinian Ambassador to the uk but now in jerusalem we arejoined ambassador to the uk but now in jerusalem we are joined by the deputy mayor of the city and a member of the Prime Ministers party, and a noted columnist here for a newspaper and some newspapers in the uk. If we could start with you, the mood of shock, this country went into this very divided politically, will this do anything to heal those divisions . T politically, will this do anything to heal those divisions . Politically, will this do anything to heal those divisions . I hate to sa it, to heal those divisions . I hate to say it. But to heal those divisions . I hate to say it. But it to heal those divisions . I hate to say it, but it has to heal those divisions . I hate to say it, but it has to to heal those divisions . I hate to say it, but it has to take to heal those divisions . I hate to i say it, but it has to take something so traumatic, something so terrible like a massacre, execution of young people at a music concert, but i think it has brought a country together, or has put aside at least everything we thought was important we go and dealing with what is really important, which is the external enemy posing a threat to israel, and a threat to our southern border and some would say even an existential threat, so yes, i think we are a more united country. It is just a pity that it took this to get us there. ,. , just a pity that it took this to get us there. ,. ,. , us there. You have written for many ears us there. You have written for many years about us there. You have written for many years about strategic us there. You have written for many years about Strategic Affairs us there. You have written for many years about Strategic Affairs in years about Strategic Affairs in this part of the world, this taking of so many hostages, is this a game changer that will be israelis allow this to condition their behaviour in the coming phase of the crisis . T the coming phase of the crisis . I dont think hamas is going to use these dont think hamas is going to use these prisoners as Human Shields at some these prisoners as Human Shields at some of these prisoners as Human Shields at some of them are threatening to do. These some of them are threatening to do. These are some of them are threatening to do. These are the most valuable assets that hamas has now, many israeli civilians. Holding now in hamas in gaza. It Isa Garne Holding now in hamas in gaza. It is a game changer in the hamas have been trying is a game changer in the hamas have been trying so many years to capture a large been trying so many years to capture a large number of his release. They have decided in doing that on saturday have decided in doing that on saturday morning. But i dont think necessarily saturday morning. But i dont think necessarily what will in any way inform necessarily what will in any way inform or necessarily what will in any way inform or decide how israel respond military inform or decide how israel respond military to inform or decide how israel respond military to this. The inform or decide how israel respond military to this. Military to this. The threat almost as like isis. Military to this. The threat almost as like isis, to military to this. The threat almost as like isis, to murder military to this. The threat almost as like isis, to murder them military to this. The threat almost as like isis, to murder them on i as like isis, to murder them on camera, is that an empty threat, is it real . T camera, is that an empty threat, is it real . ,. , it real . I think there are certainly. It real . I think there are certainly, as it real . I think there are certainly, as we it real . I think there are certainly, as we have i it real . I think there are i certainly, as we have seen it real . I think there are certainly, as we have seen in so many certainly, as we have seen in so many images and videos from saturday, many images and videos from saturday, many similarities between isis saturday, many similarities between isis and saturday, many similarities between isis and hamas now, but hamas is also a isis and hamas now, but hamas is also a political player within the broader also a political player within the broader Palestinian Movement of people broader Palestinian Movement of people. They want to use these prisoners people. They want to use these prisoners as bargaining chips. Sol dont prisoners as bargaining chips. Sol dont Think Prisoners as bargaining chips. Sol dont think there are threats of executing dont think there are threats of executing them are real, but we may see since executing them are real, but we may see since many other captives are actually see since many other captives are actually dead bodies, we saw from the footage, there were many live prisons the footage, there were many live prisons but the footage, there were many live prisons but they were literally snatching Tens Of Bodies into gaza. Ithink snatching Tens Of Bodies into gaza. I think they snatching Tens Of Bodies into gaza. I think they will try to use the bodies i think they will try to use the bodies and say we are doing executions here, but the live prisoners executions here, but the live prisoners are too valuable for them to start prisoners are too valuable for them to start executing. The prisoners are too valuable for them to start executing. To start executing. The captives are not mentioned to start executing. The captives are not mentioned in to start executing. The captives are not mentioned in tonights to start executing. The captives are not mentioned in tonights address| not mentioned in tonights address by mr netanyahu, is that because he doesnt want to be seen to be changing his whole calculus, because of those people now in captivity in gaza, and what is the possible trade or bargain here . T gaza, and what is the possible trade or bargain here . Or bargain here . I dont see how he can ignore or bargain here . I dont see how he can ignore the or bargain here . I dont see how he can ignore the issue. Or bargain here . I dont see how he can ignore the issue. We or bargain here . I dont see how he can ignore the issue. We have or bargain here . I dont see how he can ignore the issue. We have so i can ignore the issue. We have so many parents who are so bewildered. I myself no apparent whose son has been missing for three days, they dont know where he is, and like that there is tens of people who are worried sick and it has to be of course part of this equation, because the public will not let him forget this as part of the equation. This is a country that is very family oriented, it is part of our ethos. We traded i think it was over 1000 prisoners for caleb shall the israeli hostage that was there five years, there is no way this will not be part of the bigger picture. What haens be part of the bigger picture. What ha ens in be part of the bigger picture. What happens in that be part of the bigger picture. What happens in that context, does israel take as it were counter hostages from hamas prisoners when they go into gaza, up the ante in that sense . Tt they go into gaza, up the ante in that sense . They go into gaza, up the ante in that sense . It already holds 5000 palestinian prisoners, that sense . It already holds 5000 palestinian prisoners, they that sense . It already holds 5000 palestinian prisoners, they are that sense . It already holds 5000 | palestinian prisoners, they are held for various palestinian prisoners, they are held for various crimes in israel is accused for various crimes in israel is accused him of, theyre not hostages in that accused him of, theyre not hostages in that sense. I dont think israel will start in that sense. I dont think israel will start capturing hostages because i dont really change anything, but what has changed, sadly anything, but what has changed, sadly is anything, but what has changed, sadly is the in israel. There are thousands sadly is the in israel. There are thousands of israelis now who are now worried for their families and this is now worried for their families and this is something which as you said, almost this is something which as you said, almost ignored in his speech, because almost ignored in his speech, because netanyahu knows how much this failure because netanyahu knows how much this failure in keeping israel safe and preventing this sort of thing has tainted his leadership. Do we feel the beginnings has tainted his leadership. Do we feelthe beginnings now, has tainted his leadership. Do we feel the beginnings now, seeing l has tainted his leadership. Do we i feel the beginnings now, seeing the suffering in gaza, have a familiar pattern we have seen in 2006, 2014, that if israel loses international sympathy and support because of the numbers of civilians dying in gaza, the state of siege imposed on gaza . Youre right in that there away seems to be the game. They attack israel, israel goes to retaliate, unfortunately not, israel retaliate, we have public sympathy for a day or two and it turns against us, and somehow we are forced to stop. I think it is very different now. I think it is very different now. I think hamas has changed the game, putting out all those images, showing the cruelty of what they have done and how they are treating the elderly and disabled, holocaust survivors, babies in cages, they i think are being part of their own pr downfall in that sense and i think that will give israel much more leeway to do what they need to do to dismantle the infrastructure. Clearly la rge scale dismantle the infrastructure. Clearly large scale Military Operation is going ahead, could that draw has four and other factions into this . ,. , ,. , � into this . They probably wont rovoke into this . They probably wont provoke an into this . They probably wont provoke an israeli into this . They probably wont provoke an Israeli Attack into this . They probably wont provoke an Israeli Attack they | into this . They probably wont i provoke an Israeli Attack they will be blamed for inviting Terrible Decimation on lebanon and i dont Think Decimation on lebanon and i dont think hezbollah will want to take this think hezbollah will want to take this. They have got the forces up in the north this. They have got the forces up in the north with the border with hezbollah, and players stick seeing the steady pricking of, we saw in an occasion the steady pricking of, we saw in an occasion of the steady pricking of, we saw in an occasion of more roaming, i think if they will occasion of more roaming, i think if they will try occasion of more roaming, i think if they will try and keep this low level they will try and keep this low level of they will try and keep this low level of tension there to keep israel level of tension there to keep israel worried and to try and distract israel worried and to try and distract israel, but to make these relatiohs distract israel, but to make these relations is distract israel, but to make these relations is always very dangerous but i relations is always very dangerous but i dont relations is always very dangerous but i dont see hezbollah provoking at this but i dont see hezbollah provoking at this point another war on israels at this point another war on israels northern border. Thank you both. Joining me now is husam zomlot, the head of the Palestinian Mission to the uk. Thank you forjoining us. We have heard about the college caught by hamas and now, of course, there are more than 800 dead in gaza, including members of your own extended family put up do you know what happened to them . Thea;r extended family put up do you know what happened to them . What happened to them . They were sittin at what happened to them . They were sitting at home what happened to them . They were sitting at home and what happened to them . They were sitting at home and they what happened to them . They were sitting at home and they were what happened to them . They were l sitting at home and they were simply bombarded, the entire building was brought down. My husband, her two a husband, her Mother In Law and two other relatives died immediately, were killed instantly, and two of their youngest children, at two years old, are now in intensive care. This is truly heartbreaking and the issue here is that they have no bankers, they have no iron dome, they have nowhere to go. They are simply Sitting Ducks for the israeli war machine. Flan simply Sitting Ducks for the israeli war machine war machine. Can i be clear, you cannot condone war machine. Can i be clear, you cannot condone the war machine. Can i be clear, you cannot condone the killing war machine. Can i be clear, you cannot condone the killing of cannot condone the killing of civilians in israel, can you . Trio. Cannot condone the killing of civilians in israel, can you . No, we dont condone. Civilians in israel, can you . No, we dont condone, and civilians in israel, can you . No, we dont condone, and we civilians in israel, can you . No, we dont condone, and we are civilians in israel, can you . No, we dont condone, and we are very dont condone, and we are very clear, kirsty, we reject any targeting or harming of civilians from all sides, and were talking about senior representative, the ambassador, i represent my government and the National Movement of palestine and we have been committed to this for 30 years, not just today or yesterday, for 30 years, since the signing of the oslo accords, we have committed to non violence, we have committed to negotiations. There is nothing new. We have done everything in our power to find a different path. But we have done everything in our power to find a different path. To find a different path. But we have a situation to find a different path. But we have a situation now to find a different path. But we have a situation now that to find a different path. But we i have a situation now that hamas, perhaps an empty threat, are threatening to kill hostages to dip you condemn that action . Hostages must be protected you condemn that action . Hostages must be protected and you condemn that action . Hostages must be protected and kept you condemn that action . Hostages must be protected and kept safe,. Must be protected and kept safe, absolutely. This has no discussion whatsoever. We must return the moral high ground, and israel Must Immediately cease Targeting Civilians and, by the way, allow me to say this, whenever there is such an incident, they go off to be civilians to pressure the fighters, so you have heard. , we know there have been a lot of strikes today. He wanted to cut electricity and water for the these are war crimes, Collective Punishment. For the these are war crimes, Collective Punishment. There is a ossibili Collective Punishment. There is a possibility the Collective Punishment. There is a possibility the uk Collective Punishment. There is a possibility the uk and Collective Punishment. There is a possibility the uk and European I Possibility The Uk and European Commission will cut aid to palestinians. What is your reaction . That would be very counter productive. They will do exactly the Collective Punishment and punishing the people who have nothing to do this to my is not hamas. The husband works for the palestinian authority, the opponent of hamas these kids, two and four years old, have nothing to do with hamas. And we know that children who are young have also died in israel, so, in your view, are young have also died in israel, so, in yourview, is are young have also died in israel, so, in your view, is this a content, but appalling, conflict in hamas and israel or do you think hamas want to widen things . Tt is israel or do you think hamas want to widen things . Widen things . It is israel that wants to widen widen things . It is israel that wants to widen the widen things . It is israel that wants to widen the scope. I widen things . It is israel that wants to widen the scope. Hamas mi. Ht wants to widen the scope. Hamas might want wants to widen the scope. Hamas might want the wants to widen the scope. Hamas might want the whole wants to widen the scope. Hamas might want the whole area wants to widen the scope. Hamas might want the whole area to wants to widen the scope. Hamas might want the whole area to be l might want the whole area to be destabilised. M5 might want the whole area to be destabilised. Might want the whole area to be destabilised. ~ ,. ,. , destabilised. Ms is a Military Group the tri we destabilised. Ms is a Military Group the trip we are destabilised. Ms is a Military Group the trip we are the destabilised. Ms is a Military Group the trip we are the government. Destabilised. Ms is a Military Group| the trip we are the government. The most important priority is to stop this madness, the atrocities immediately and the lessons. Has Hamas Delegitimise the argument for the campaign for Palestinian Statehood and is it making the argument harder . How do you make the argument harder . How do you make the argument in the circumstances . T argument in the circumstances . I dont represent hamas. It is not hamas that derailed the Two State Solution, is the israeli settlement, is the International Treasure and accountability, its the feeling that israel is above the law and exception to every law. You cannot bypass the palestinian issue of the trip its been there for 100 years and there is a people that seek liberation and freedom, and dont underestimate the desire for freedom when people want it, and that has to be granted. When people want it, and that has to be ranted. ,. , when people want it, and that has to be ranted. , i. ,. , be granted. Thank you for oining us. Well be returning to the middle east in a little while, but the scenes there are the background to this Labour Party Conference in liverpool. Here, the leadership wants to focus the delegates minds on the forthcoming general election, and celebrate last weeks decisive win in the by election in rutherglen hamilton west. However, no matter that keir starmer apparently wants to avoid any triumphalism, based on the steady lead in the opinion polls, in todays big ticket speech, The Shadow Chancellor couldnt help remarking that she could be the first ever female chancellor of the exchequer, holding one of the three oldest offices of state. In a heavily trailed speech, Rachel Reeves promised to put business first, to stick to iron clad fiscal rules, reform planning and introduce a genuine living wage. But, despite promising a Labour Goverment would deliver big Infrastructure Projects, there was no recommitment to hs2 in its totality. Heres nick. A commanding view over one of britains great waterways and the setting for a Political Party daring to dream that it may soon command the country. A buzz at the Labour Conference and no room at the inn for some at one of the weeks main events. Out of the wreckage of tory misrule, labour will restore our economic credibility. The would be chancellor pressed home the two core messages of this conference. First, a familiar theme of reassurance with a commitment to iron clad Fiscal Discipline and a guarantee of no significant tax and spending changes without an independent forecast. But, answering critics that its all a bit dull with more of a vision, a National Wealth fund to Leverage Private finance into Infrastructure Projects and speeding up new Grid Construction with competitive tendering. Launched with an endorsement from this guy. Its beyond time to put her ideas and energy into action. And a rallying cry from Rachel Reeves. If, like me, you think that britain can do better, that britain can be better off, if you, like me, believe that it is time to put Security First and reject the risk of five more years of chaos and decline, thenjoin us. Labours bigwigs were impressed by The Shadow Chancellor. That was an absolutely outstanding speech. A serious plan to get britains economy growing again, to rebuild our Public Services, and, crucially, to help Family Finances in this cost of living crisis. Enough dazzle . Goose bumps. Ive still got them. Nick, was that a chancellor in the making . Oh, yes. A very, very good and effective future chancellor, assuming were elected, of course, next time. Thats up to the voters. Now, you were there. You were one of the architects of new labour 25, 26 years ago. Has it got that atmosphere . I think it certainly had that atmosphere in the hall today. But, you know, the key point about this is, and rachels absolutely right, you know, in 1997, you know, we had a struggling but a growing economy and we had to put our feet down on the accelerator. Were not in that position now. I think it does have the excitement of tony blair, and thats what you saw today and thats where the public are going. What a superstar, that was absolutely brilliant. I thought the way that she gave that compelling argument that what our country needs is the security and the economic stability so that we can really hope and we can really change our country. It was absolutely packed out and it was an incredibly well received speech, i think setting out a really ambitious agenda about how well bring more jobs to our country, create growth and give more opportunities to people right across the uk. It was a tour de force. And from the labour left, a guarded welcome. I thought there were lots of good things, there were some very good things in it, but i would also have really wanted some bolder things. We havent really seen what their ambition is and i think that risks losing people on the left. Theyre being cautious because they want to win over tory voters, but they may well also lose the voters to the left. This is a party that believes the National Mood is moving decisively in its favour. But there is agreement with keir starmer, who is famously a warrior against complacency. So all that caution. But labour knows its notjust good enough for them for people not to vote conservative. Voters have got to want to vote labour. And so this week were seeing a sprinkling of a vision. Milling around by the mersey, excitement as labour finds its feet again. Nicks here. Aside from whats happening in the middle east, what do you make of the atmosphere at this conference . Tts atmosphere at this conference . Its atmosphere at this conference . Its a a atmosphere at this conference . Tt� s a party that believes its time is yet to come again, and in a sign of keir starmer� s authority, he lost a vote this afternoon, the conference voted to take something into public ownership, and dealership are going to ignore it. All eyes on the speech tomorrow by keir starmer. Two interesting themes, firstly, hell contrast the tory offer, which he saysis contrast the tory offer, which he says is never ending decline, with the labour offer, a decade of national renewal, and tonight we are hearing a big expansion of powers for english cities and towns, the biggest since devolution, and the second big thing is clear farewell to the air ofjeremy corbyn. No longer a party of protest, keir starmer will say, a part of service, and he will say, country first, party second. With me is labours shadow science secretary, peter kyle. Isnt there a danger that keir starmer isnt there a danger that keir starmer is promising a false prospectus . Immediate reinvigoration of the prospectus . Immediate reinvigoration of the nhs, education, planning, fuelled of the nhs, education, planning, fuelled by of the nhs, education, planning, fuelled by what, vat on private schools fuelled by what, vat on private schools and a publishing long term states . Schools and a publishing long term states . That wont cut it. We states . That wont cut it. We need states . That wont cut it. We need to get the fundable is a radical we need to get the fundable is a radical rewrite, rebuild and refocus our economy and get going forward. We live our economy and get going forward. We live in our economy and get going forward. We live in a our economy and get going forward. We live in a world now because things we live in a world now because things have been so badly run for so lon things have been so badly run for so long that things have been so badly run for so long that keeping women and girls safe and long that keeping women and girls safe and Feeling Safe In Public Status safe and Feeling Safe In Public Status is safe and Feeling Safe In Public Status is a big thing. People being able to status is a big thing. People being able to feel doctor is a radical proposition at the time they need to see them proposition at the time they need to see them. We need to get back to the point where see them. We need to get back to the point where the country is being well run point where the country is being well run and then we will refocus into the well run and then we will refocus into the future. So keir starmer talking into the future. So keir starmer talking about a ten year renewal is not only talking about a ten year renewal is not only bold and forward facing its honest about the condition the country its honest about the condition the country is its honest about the condition the country is in. It� s its honest about the condition the country is in country is in. Its a ten year programme. Country is in. Its a ten year programme, but country is in. Its a ten year programme, but surely country is in. Its a ten year programme, but surely you country is in. Its a ten year programme, but surely you have to say, its a ten year programme, and the ifs say youll struggle to get growth straightway, youre not going to be able to do many of these things in the first term and you for the said, Rachel Reeves said, its going to be heard, youre not going to transform the nhs in the third term if you win. Tt to transform the nhs in the third term if you win. Term if you win. If there is an election tomorrow, term if you win. If there is an election tomorrow, we term if you win. If there is an election tomorrow, we will. Term if you win. If there is an election tomorrow, we will inherit a situation election tomorrow, we will inherit a situation with 7. 5 Million People waiting situation with 7. 5 Million People waiting for treatment of the nhs, 2. 5 Million People unknown to the economy 2. 5 Million People unknown to the economy because either they didnt io economy because either they didnt go back economy because either they didnt go back to economy because either they didnt go back to work after covid, these are tragedies for individual people, people are tragedies for individual people, People Living in pain and not able to participate in the economy. If we tackle to participate in the economy. If we tackle some of those issues, and we have a tackle some of those issues, and we have a fully tackle some of those issues, and we have a fully funded plan to tackle the westerlies challenge the nhs, that is the westerlies challenge the nhs, that is part of our growth plan. Of 8. 5 that is part of our growth plan. Of 85 million that is part of our growth plan. Of 8. 5 Million People, so how long is it going 8. 5 Million People, so how long is it going to 8. 5 Million People, so how long is it going to take to get 8. 5 Million People it going to take to get 8. 5 Million People in it going to take to get 8. 5 Million People in a position where theyre seeing people in a position where theyre seeing somebody within two weeks . We are honest seeing somebody within two weeks . We are honest about the fact we had to rebuild are honest about the fact we had to rebuild before we can do the things we need rebuild before we can do the things we need to rebuild before we can do the things we need to get the country back to where we need to get the country back to where it we need to get the country back to where it should be to get our future back, where it should be to get our future back, which where it should be to get our future back, which is what keir starmer is promising back, which is what keir starmer is promising. We will get growth into the economy step today rachel announced measures to streamline getting announced measures to streamline getting official put it off the ground. At the same time, we have a prime ground. At the same time, we have a Prime Minister that assesses long term while in the same breath cut in long term while in the same breath cut in the long term while in the same breath cut in the only long term project he has. Cut in the only long term project he has you cut in the only long term project he has you are cut in the only long term project he has. You are going to go for big infrastructure but you couldnt even reintroduce infrastructure but you couldnt even reintroduce something that would create jobs and give economic yield almost immediately, and that is the northern leg of hs2. Which andy street, a tory mayor, said it was cancelling the future. You cant even say that. We cancelling the future. You cant even say that. Cancelling the future. You cant even sa that. ~. ,. , even say that. We are not the ones that cancelled even say that. We are not the ones that cancelled it. Even say that. We are not the ones that cancelled it. You even say that. We are not the ones that cancelled it. You could even say that. We are not the ones that cancelled it. You could be even say that. We are not the ones that cancelled it. You could be the | that cancelled it. You could be the ones that could that cancelled it. You could be the ones that could put that cancelled it. You could be the ones that could put it that cancelled it. You could be the ones that could put it back. That cancelled it. You could be the ones that could put it back. We. Ones that could put it back. We dont know ones that could put it back. We dont know what state these projects. Dont know what state these projects dont know what state these projects. Dont know what state these roects. , proects. The next election will be projects. The next election will be at most projects. The next election will be at most a projects. The next election will be at most a year projects. The next election will be at most a year away projects. The next election will be at most a year away strip projects. The next election will. Be at most a year away strip there is something that could give you a great yield Business Edge would support that. Great yield Business Edge would sopport that great yield Business Edge would suortthat. ~. ,. , support that. Which is why we had the idea of support that. Which is why we had the idea of h52 support that. Which is why we had the idea of h52 in support that. Which is why we had the idea of h52 in the support that. Which is why we had the idea of h52 in the First Support that. Which is why we had the idea of h52 in the first place i the idea of h52 in the first place and endorsed it and voted for it at every and endorsed it and voted for it at every step and endorsed it and voted for it at every step of the way. There is a tory every step of the way. There is a tory government that has scrapped it, tory government that has scrapped it. That tory government that has scrapped it. That has tory government that has scrapped it, that has run a coach and horses through it, that has run a coach and horses through it it, that has run a coach and horses through it. They may have sold the land and through it. They may have sold the land and started building and by the time we land and started building and by the time we get into office. Iimagine i imagine lots would endorse you buy that back. A lot of especially northern business, their support for the northern leg, what Rachel Reeves promised today about hs2 was an independent expert inquiry. We dont need an independent expert inquiry, we know what went wrong, why waste time and money are not . Time and money are not . Everything ou said time and money are not . Everything you said applies time and money are not . Everything you said applies to time and money are not . Everything you said applies to what time and money are not . Everything you said applies to what the you said applies to what the government have done to try and our longterm government have done to try and our long term infrastructure problems, it doesnt long term infrastructure problems, it doesnt apply to the labour party. It doesnt apply to the labour party, they got hsi delivered on budget party, they got hsi delivered on budget and on time, it is a tory government that allowed the costs of h52 to government that allowed the costs of h52 to spiral, they cancelled and hsz to spiral, they cancelled and recommissioned bits of it, squandered money and squandered opportunity. So squandered money and squandered o. Ortuni. Squandered money and squandered opportunity opportunity. So you guarantee you will not bring opportunity. So you guarantee you will not bring it opportunity. So you guarantee you will not bring it back . Opportunity. So you guarantee you will not bring it back . We opportunity. So you guarantee you will not bring it back . We will opportunity. So you guarantee you | will not bring it back . We will have to assess not will not bring it back . We will have to assess notjust will not bring it back . We will have to assess notjust a will not bring it back . We will have to assess notjust a mist will not bring it back . We will have to assess notjust a mist of will not bring it back . We will have to assess notjust a mist of our to assess not just a mist of our infrastructure but in our Public Services infrastructure but in our Public Services with lack of growth in our economy, services with lack of growth in our economy, all the things we will. If economy, all the things we will. If we economy, all the things we will. If we win economy, all the things we will. If we win the election of. If we win the election of. These will take time if we win the election of. These will take time if if we win the election of. These will take time if you if we win the election of. These will take time if you win if we win the election of. These will take time if you win the will take time if you win the election, keir starmer promised in the first term to abolish the house of lords, his idea of reinvigorating the union. That wont happen if you win, willard, not unless it was a second term, it will never happen in a first term, you just cant do it. We are promising radical reform, tomorrow we are promising radical reform, tomorrow he will talk about some of the constitutional changes we want to make the constitutional changes we want to make into the future, we will sort out to make into the future, we will sort out devolution again. We as a country sort out devolution again. We as a country will sort out devolution again. We as a country will have to pull together because country will have to pull together because we are not meeting our potential because we are not meeting our potential right now in terms of the way we potential right now in terms of the way we deliver Public Services, as the economy, we share the profits of the economy, we share the profits of the benefits of growth, what little we have the benefits of growth, what little we have, all the things we will have to work we have, all the things we will have to work really hard that, in my area in a science to work really hard that, in my area in a science and innovation and technology we are promising long term funding. In ten years. At the moment long term funding. In ten years. At the moment it is three years. So the power the moment it is three years. So the power sector the moment it is three years. So the power sector knows how to invest into the power sector knows how to invest into the future, we make the best of spinners into the future, we make the best of spinners from university, all the things spinners from university, all the things we spinners from university, all the things we will have to do, but to do that and things we will have to do, but to do that and create the stability we will have that and create the stability we will have to get the fundamentals ii l ht will have to get the fundamentals right and will have to get the fundamentals right and that goes from crime through right and that goes from crime through to our Public Services right through through to our Public Services right through to through to our Public Services right through to how we rebuild the institutions that hold our Economic Policy institutions that hold our Economic Policy to institutions that hold our Economic Policy to account when we are in government. Policy to account when we are in government policy to account when we are in rovernment. ,. ,. Were returning now to the devastating events wrought on israel by hamas, proscribed as a Terrorist Group by the uk and the us. The well planned attacks rained down rockets in a multi layered operation, which killed at least 900, including 260 massacred at a Music Festival. Ten british nationals are feared missing or dead. 2,600 have been wounded. Hostages, including very young children, as young as nine months, and elderly people we have no definitve numbers have been taken to gaza, and according to hamas four israeli captives have died in retaliatory israeli airstrikes, of which there have been more than 2,400, as israel triggers a state of siege in gaza, cutting off water, food and energy supplies. In those airstrikes, almost 700 palestinians have been killed, and the hospitals are overwhelmed. Is this just the beginning of a long conflict . And are we now facing the prospect of a regional war . Heres emir. Everything that we believed to be true was wrong. Just last month, president Bidens National security adviser had this to say. And the middle east region is quieter today than it has been in two decades. Overlooking perhaps the west banks deadliest year in nearly two decades. And now israel is reeling from the bloodiest single day in its history, an attack clearly months in the making, while gazans brace against the opening salvos of retribution. People are talking about Arab States Normalising with israel, and so the palestinian issue is sort of shunted aside, even though their conditions are worsening. And so i think what this attack was designed to do was to reinsert the palestinian issue in a very dramatic and quite brutal way as an agenda item, back on the regional and international agenda. Whether it will succeed in doing that in a constructive way, i think, is another matter. If you were to look at the succession of family photos, youd be mistaken too for thinking that a new era of arab israeli peace had been achieved. President trump initiated the abraham accords, seeing a handful of arab countries normalise with israel. Bidens administration turned their eyes to the big one, signing up saudi arabia, a prospect that now looks more distant than ever. I dont expect to see any severing of relations. I also wouldnt expect to see any new Normalisation Agreements in the nearfuture, mostly for the reason that you pointed to Arab Public Opinion is quite supportive of palestinian rights. Israels allies have rallied to its defence, pledging unwavering solidarity in the face of the weekends brutal attacks, with the us sending a warship and military aid in a show of support. The american position has been one of really indulging israel, encouraging the hubris which probably contributed to the intelligence and systemic failures in not expecting this to happen. The initial american response is to double down on the bearhug, and i think we can expect a similar pattern of, im afraid, encouraging israel to do its worst. Few have come to the defence of hamas, save a few rockets fired by hezbollah and strong words from iran, their biggest military backers. The palestinians find themselves without a global power firmly on their side, while israel tells the world it plans to destroy hamas, that it will completely siege gaza. Israel quite astonishingly has cut off fuel, food and electricity to gaza, and if there isnt a serious intervention on the part of the international community, then im afraid were trading one atrocity for another, and i think thats just simply a recipe for disaster. Since saturday, the israeli army has launched nearly 4,000 air strikes into gaza, and it looks like a Ground Invasion is now being marshalled. Neither side and few allies, it seems are calling for restraint. Before we discuss all this, earlier this evening, the historian and cultural commentator simon schama spoke to newsnight. His four nephews, and their own children in israel, have been called up. All of us in the united kingdom, really, know someone, have family or friends. So going through an agonising trauma like this and it is with, you know, the greatest number of deaths on a single day since the holocaust, we all go together, were all an enormous family. 350,000 of us in the uk absolutely feel part of the broader family ofjews, so what has happened, really, opens a wounded memory thats full. And i wish it werent, i wish this wasnt thejewish memory. Its not the onlyjewish memory, but it opens a memory of slaughter and bloodshed and the fate of absolutely innocent people, so we all feel it. Are you concerned about retaliatory attacks . Weve already heard about ajewish restaurant, golders green, which has been vandalized. How do we stave off that . In a country like this, really, one feels. 0ne puts down roots. You know, you feel for a moment safe, but, you know, really, that safety is always going to be provisional. I think at a deeper level, the notion that, really, the hostility is towards In Heavy Quote Marks zionism seems malevolently absurd. This is the celebration of the death ofjews. Its a kind of glee of horror, really. There was a free palestine parade in sydney in australia last night where there was no pretence the marchers said, fjews, fjews. I wont. You know, you can fill in the details. So we are quite aware that this is notjust really about the history of zionism. This is aboutjew hatred. Thank you very much indeed, simon schama. Thank you, kirsty. To discuss the prospects for war and, eventually, for peace, im joined by tayab ali, a director at the International Centre ofjustice for palestinians, Dame Margaret hodge, parliamentary chair of thejewish Labour Movement, and frank lowenstein, former us special envoy for peace in the middle east. Good evening, all of you. First of all, margaret hodge, simon talked about the collective trauma ofjews many of whom are concerned for their own safety. Do you understand that from his Point Of View . Completely, not ust from his Point Of View . Completely, not just from from his Point Of View . Completely, not just from his from his Point Of View . Completely, notjust from his point from his Point Of View . Completely, notjust from his point of from his Point Of View . Completely, not just from his Point Of View from his Point Of View . Completely, notjust from his Point Of View but i notjust from his Point Of View but from the Point Of View of the whole of the jewish community. From the Point Of View of the whole of thejewish community. I have just been jewish labour of thejewish community. I have just beenjewish Labour Movement of thejewish community. I have just been jewish Labour Movement social where we were to celebrate the fact that the party has expelled anti semitism from its downstream and actually there is a terrible mood there because everybody had friends, family, and it is beginning to impact, as you said, it is being beginning to impact here, so for example children who are going to jewish schools have been told not to wear the uniforms tomorrow when they go to school, because they may well be victims of anti semitic attacks. We are hearing that the government, government is reconsidering aid for palestinians, indeed European Union are giving emergency aid, the European Commission is also reconsidering. Do you think that is the right course of action . T reconsidering. Do you think that is the right course of action . The right course of action . I think we have to the right course of action . I think we have to distinguish the right course of action . I think we have to distinguish between i the right course of action . I think we have to distinguish between hamas and the palestinians. This was a hamas terrorist attack. The only way i can think of it is think how we responded to the attack in manchester, at that concert. Ten times as many people got killed at the Music Festival in israel when hamas attacked that. It is a terrible, terrible terrorist attack, so the israelis have the right to defend their state but we should distinguish between hamas the Terrorist Organisation and palestinians, many of whom are suffering within gaza. Palestinians, many of whom are suffering within gaza. Tayab, you are no apologist suffering within gaza. Tayab, you are no apologist for suffering within gaza. Tayab, you are no apologist for hamas suffering within gaza. Tayab, you are no apologist for hamas i suffering within gaza. Tayab, you l are no apologist for hamas i know but they must have known israel would strike back hard and many Palestinian Civilians will be killed. , �. , Palestinian Civilians will be killed. N. ,. Killed. Isnt that ust an indication killed. Isnt that ust an indication of killed. Isnt that ust an indication of the h killed. Isnt thatjust an indication of the Desperation Posting indication of the Desperation Posting in is appealing whether they are hamas posting in is appealing whether they are hamas or anybody else . The way to look are hamas or anybody else . The way to look at are hamas or anybody else . The way to look at the situation in palestine is to not ignore the history. Palestine is to not ignore the history, another thing we do repeatedly is ignore the palestinian. Do repeatedly is ignore the palestinian. Repeatedly is ignore the palestinian. Palestinian. Do you condemn hamas . It is ve palestinian. Do you condemn hamas . It is very easy palestinian. Do you condemn hamas . It is very easy for palestinian. Do you condemn hamas . It is very easy for me palestinian. Do you condemn hamas . It is very easy for me to palestinian. Do you condemn hamas . It is very easy for me to condemn it is very easy for me to condemn unlawful it is very easy for me to condemn unlawful killing. But condemn them . It is really straightforward. Unlawful killing. But condemn them . It is really straightforward. I am unlawful killing. But condemn them . It is really straightforward. I am a it is really straightforward. I am a lawyer, it is really straightforward. I am a lawyer, i it is really straightforward. I am a lawyer, i have a duty to uphold the rule of lawyer, i have a duty to uphold the rule of law lawyer, i have a duty to uphold the rule of law and rate for the principles ofjustice, it is straightforward. Any killing and taking straightforward. Any killing and taking of straightforward. Any killing and taking of life outside the Rule Of Law I Taking of life outside the rule of law i condemn. It is straightforward whether law i condemn. It is straightforward whether that is on by hamas or whether whether that is on by hamas or whether it whether that is on by hamas or whether it is done by the israelis. This is whether it is done by the israelis. This is really important because this isnt this is really important because this isnt a this is really important because this isnt a one sided argument, margaret this isnt a one sided argument, margaret. You yourself saw this coming, margaret. You yourself saw this coming, seven months ago you wrote an article coming, seven months ago you wrote an article in coming, seven months ago you wrote an article in the guardian where you made an article in the guardian where you made it an article in the guardian where you made it plain that if the right wing government carried on with the policies government carried on with the policies they had and the policies they had policies they had and the policies they had in place the actors in the israeli they had in place the actors in the Israeli Government would end up in this exact Israeli Government would end up in this exact situation is. Let Israeli Government would end up in this exact situation is. This exact situation is. Let me brin in this exact situation is. Let me bring in frank. This exact situation is. Let me bring in frank. You this exact situation is. Let me bring in frank. You were this exact situation is. Let me | bring in frank. You were there this exact situation is. Let me i bring in frank. You were there at the time of possible optimism in 2014. Now what is happening is we look as if were going to Ground Forces going in from israel to gaza. We are told that settlers in the west bank are being offered m 16s. What do you think will happen . T what do you think will happen . I think it will be an escalation into an unbelievably think it will be an escalation into an unbelievably horrific an unbelievably horrific humanitarian an unbelievably horrific humanitarian situation| an unbelievably horrifici humanitarian situation in an unbelievably horrific humanitarian situation in the an unbelievably horrific humanitarian situation in the strip. I humanitarian situation in the strip. I was humanitarian situation in the strip. I was in humanitarian situation in the strip. I was in 2014 humanitarian situation in the strip. I was in 2014 when humanitarian situation in the strip. I was in 2014 when israel humanitarian situation in the strip. I was in 2014 when israel sent i i was in 2014 when israel sent ground i was in 2014 when israel sent Ground Forces i was in 2014 when israel sent Ground Forces in i was in 2014 when israel sent Ground Forces in and i was in 2014 when israel sent Ground Forces in and there i i was in 2014 when israel sent i Ground Forces in and there were i was in 2014 when israel sent Ground Forces in and there were over 2000 Ground Forces in and there were over 2000 palestinian Ground Forces in and there were over 2000 Palestinian Civilians Ground Forces in and there were over 2000 Palestinian Civilians killed, i 2000 Palestinian Civilians killed, we have 2000 Palestinian Civilians killed, we have seen 2000 Palestinian Civilians killed, we have seen 700 2000 Palestinian Civilians killed, we have seen 700 already. I 2000 Palestinian Civilians killed, we have seen 700 already. You i 2000 Palestinian Civilians killed, i we have seen 700 already. You could. Et we have seen 700 already. You could get up we have seen 700 already. You could get up to we have seen 700 already. You could get up to 10,000 we have seen 700 already. You could get up to 10,000 or we have seen 700 already. You could get up to 10,000 or20,000, we have seen 700 already. You could get up to 10,000 or20,000, no we have seen 700 already. You could| get up to 10,000 or 20,000, no limit to the get up to 10,000 or 20,000, no limit to the amount get up to 10,000 or 20,000, no limit to the amount of get up to 10,000 or 20,000, no limit to the amount of people get up to 10,000 or 20,000, no limit to the amount of people that get up to 10,000 or 20,000, no limit to the amount of people that could i to the amount of people that could be harmed to the amount of people that could be harmed by to the amount of people that could be harmed by that to the amount of people that could be harmed by that kind to the amount of people that could be harmed by that kind of to the amount of people that could be harmed by that kind of invasion| be harmed by that kind of invasion and the be harmed by that kind of invasion and the question be harmed by that kind of invasion and the question for be harmed by that kind of invasion and the question for the be harmed by that kind of invasion and the question for the united i and the question for the United States and the question for the United States is and the question for the United States is what and the question for the United States is what is and the question for the United States is what is this and the question for the United States is what is this going i and the question for the United States is what is this going to i states is what is this going to achieve, states is what is this going to achieve, where states is what is this going to achieve, where will states is what is this going to achieve, where will we states is what is this going to achieve, where will we be i states is what is this going to achieve, where will we be ati states is what is this going to i achieve, where will we be at the states is what is this going to achieve, where will we be at the end of this . Achieve, where will we be at the end of this . Then achieve, where will we be at the end of this . Then also achieve, where will we be at the end of this . Then also how achieve, where will we be at the end of this . Then also how will achieve, where will we be at the end of this . Then also how will we achieve, where will we be at the end of this . Then also how will we keepl of this . Then also how will we keep hezbollah of this . Then also how will we keep hezbollah out of this . Then also how will we keep hezbollah out of of this . Then also how will we keep hezbollah out of this of this . Then also how will we keep hezbollah out of this conflict, of this . Then also how will we keep hezbollah out of this conflict, that I Hezbollah Out of this conflict, that is probably hezbollah out of this conflict, that is probably the hezbollah out of this conflict, that is probably the main hezbollah out of this conflict, that is probably the main focus hezbollah out of this conflict, that is probably the main focus of hezbollah out of this conflict, that is probably the main focus of us i is probably the main focus of us efforts is probably the main focus of us efforts right is probably the main focus of us efforts right now. Is probably the main focus of us efforts right now. Do is probably the main focus of us efforts right now. Is probably the main focus of us efforts right now. Do you think now that gaza is efforts right now. Do you think now that gaza is actually efforts right now. Do you think now| that gaza is actually ungovernable . I think it is. And i think it israel achieves i think it is. And i think it israel achieves this i think it is. And i think it israel achieves this military i think it is. And i think it israel achieves this Military Objectivel i think it is. And i think it israell achieves this Military Objective a tremendous achieves this Military Objective a tremendous cost achieves this Military Objective a tremendous cost then achieves this Military Objective a tremendous cost then you achieves this Military Objective a tremendous cost then you will. Achieves this Military Objective ai tremendous cost then you will be left with tremendous cost then you will be left with no tremendous cost then you will be left with no government tremendous cost then you will be left with no government at all i left with no government at all there. And left with no government at all there, and the left with no government at all there, and the humanitarian. There, and the humanitarian catastrophe there, and the humanitarian catastrophe. It there, and the humanitarian catastrophe. It is there, and the humanitarian catastrophe. It is really catastrophe. It is really unprecedented catastrophe. It is really unprecedented and i catastrophe. It is really| unprecedented and how catastrophe. It is really unprecedented and how we catastrophe. It is really unprecedented and how we suppose to bein unprecedented and how we suppose to begin to unprecedented and how we suppose to begin to deal unprecedented and how we suppose to begin to deal with unprecedented and how we suppose to begin to deal with helping unprecedented and how we suppose to begin to deal with helping the begin to deal with helping the people begin to deal with helping the people that begin to deal with helping the people that are begin to deal with helping the people that are suffering i begin to deal with helping the| people that are suffering there begin to deal with helping the people that are suffering there when there is people that are suffering there when there is no people that are suffering there when there is no Government People that are suffering there when there is no government and people that are suffering there when there is no government and there i people that are suffering there when there is no government and there is| there is no government and there is no infrastructure there is no government and there is no Infrastructure Left . There is no government and there is no Infrastructure Left . I there is no government and there is no Infrastructure Left . I think there is no government and there is no Infrastructure Left . I think you i no Infrastructure Left . I think you are looking no Infrastructure Left . I think you are looking at no Infrastructure Left . I think you are looking at the no Infrastructure Left . I think you are looking at the situation no Infrastructure Left . I think you are looking at the situation there| are looking at the situation there that has are looking at the situation there that has no are looking at the situation there that has no good are looking at the situation there that has no good answers. Are looking at the situation there i that has no good answers. Hopefully at the that has no good answers. Hopefully at the end that has no good answers. Hopefully at the end of that has no good answers. Hopefully at the end of that that has no good answers. Hopefully at the end of that whole that has no good answers. Hopefully at the end of that whole process i that has no good answers. Hopefully at the end of that whole process if. At the end of that whole process if there at the end of that whole process if there is at the end of that whole process if there is a at the end of that whole process if there is a different at the end of that whole process if there is a different government. At the end of that whole process if. There is a different government and hamas there is a different government and hamas there there is a different government and hamas there will there is a different government and hamas there will be there is a different government and hamas there will be a there is a different government and hamas there will be a whole hamas there will be a whole different hamas there will be a whole different regime hamas there will be a whole different regime there hamas there will be a whole different regime there but i hamas there will be a whole i different regime there but for hamas there will be a whole different regime there but for now i think itll different regime there but for now i think itll be different regime there but for now i think itll be a different regime there but for now i think itll be a long different regime there but for now i think itll be a long hard different regime there but for now i think itll be a Long Hard Road think itll be a Long Hard Road ahead think itll be a Long Hard Road ahead. , think itll be a Long Hard Road ahead. ,. Ahead. Margaret hodge, is that your anal sis, a ahead. Margaret hodge, is that your analysis. A long ahead. Margaret hodge, is that your analysis, a long hard ahead. Margaret hodge, is that your analysis, a Long Hard Road ahead. Margaret hodge, is that your analysis, a Long Hard Road and i ahead. Margaret hodge, is that your analysis, a Long Hard Road and also. Analysis, a Long Hard Road and also that hezbollah is one of the big problems . That hezbollah is one of the big roblems . ~. , problems . Whether hezbollah now enters into this problems . Whether hezbollah now enters into this whole problems . Whether hezbollah now enters into this whole situation i problems . Whether hezbollah now enters into this whole situation is. Enters into this whole situation is a really other frightening aspect to it all. What im really depressed about, any idea that you are right when i came back from israel, in february i already felt it was a fragile state, now i think any hope of getting to the Two State Solution which must be the only way forward is just down the road miles away, any hope of reconciliation, and i do think we are probably agreeing, but probably had britain and europe and america played a stronger role in trying to push both communities together towards peace, we might not have got to the situation we are now. T have got to the situation we are now. ~ ,. , now. I think this is really important now. I think this is really important and now. I think this is really important and it now. I think this is really important and it is i now. I think this is really important and it is good | now. I think this is really i important and it is good we are coming important and it is good we are coming to important and it is good we are coming to consensus here. The issue for me coming to consensus here. The issue for me is coming to consensus here. The issue for me is not coming to consensus here. The issue for me is not that, it doesnt matter for me is not that, it doesnt matter if for me is not that, it doesnt matter if hamas remains in gaza or another matter if hamas remains in gaza or another party is in gaza, if israel keeps another party is in gaza, if israel keeps Gaza Another Party is in gaza, if israel keeps Gaza Occupied and keeps occupation in a way that it is, there occupation in a way that it is, there is occupation in a way that it is, there is no occupation in a way that it is, there is no chance for peace. What we need there is no chance for peace. What we need to there is no chance for peace. What we need to have here first of all is to look we need to have here first of all is to look back we need to have here first of all is to look back at the last 70 years of occupation to look back at the last 70 years of occupation and the last 70 years of palestinian occupation and the last 70 years of palestinian subjugation in that particular region. What we need actually, particular region. What we need actually, and it can be achieved by next week actually, and it can be achieved by next week actually, as if we impose a system, next week actually, as if we impose a system, the world impose a system where a system, the world impose a system where a a system, the world impose a system where a rules based Accountability System where a rules based Accountability System is where a rules based Accountability System is applied equally for palestinians and israelis in that region. Palestinians and israelis in that region, things will change overnight. To region, things will change overnight region, things will change overniaht. ,. , overnight. To think what hamas, and it is important, overnight. To think what hamas, and it is important, we overnight. To think what hamas, and it is important, we are overnight. To think what hamas, and it is important, we are talking i it is important, we are talking right now about what hamas is in the middle of doing it never mind we know whether or not they are going to murder hostages, we dont know that, do you think hamas is trying to destabilise the whole region, do you think hamas wants hezbollah to commend . I dont speak for hamas. Your analysis i am asking. Butt your analysis i am asking. But i think is happening, your analysis i am asking. But i think is happening, we your analysis i am asking. But i think is happening, we are i your analysis i am asking. But i think is happening, we are seeing really think is happening, we are seeing really harrowing pictures, devastating pictures of what is happening in israel right now, and what happening in israel right now, and what is happening in israel right now, and what is sad happening in israel right now, and what is sad here is for the last two decades what is sad here is for the last two decades we what is sad here is for the last two decades we havent seen those pictures decades we havent seen those pictures in the same way because that is pictures in the same way because that is a pictures in the same way because that is a living reality for palestinians for the last 20 years. I palestinians for the last 20 years. I need palestinians for the last 20 years. I need to palestinians for the last 20 years. I need to bring in frank again because i want to ask you because you know this region is a wealth and you know this region is a wealth and you know this region is a wealth and you know the tenor and depth of these events. I wonder if you think this is globally likely to be as steed destabilising as russias invasion of ukraine has been, is a the same in terms of terms of destabilisation of an area . T the same in terms of terms of destabilisation of an area . I think It De Ends Destabilisation of an area . I think it depends on destabilisation of an area . I think it depends on what destabilisation of an area . I think it depends on what happens i destabilisation of an area . I think it depends on what happens over| destabilisation of an area . I think. It depends on what happens over the next weeks it depends on what happens over the next weeks and it depends on what happens over the next weeks and months. It depends on what happens over the next weeks and months. I it depends on what happens over the next weeks and months. I think next weeks and months. I think there next weeks and months. I think there will next weeks and months. I think there will be next weeks and months. I think there will be increasing next weeks and months. I think| there will be increasing pressure next weeks and months. I think. There will be increasing pressure to take military there will be increasing pressure to take Military Action there will be increasing pressure to take Military Action against there will be increasing pressure to take Military Action against iran, i take Military Action against iran, hezbollah take Military Action against iran, hezbollah gets take Military Action against iran, hezbollah gets into take Military Action against iran, hezbollah gets into the take Military Action against iran, hezbollah gets into the middle i take Military Action against iran, i hezbollah gets into the middle of this mix hezbollah gets into the middle of this mix we hezbollah gets into the middle of this mix we are hezbollah gets into the middle of this mix we are looking hezbollah gets into the middle of this mix we are looking at hezbollah gets into the middle of. This mix we are looking at something that will this mix we are looking at something that will be this mix we are looking at something that will be massively this mix we are looking at something that will be massively destabilising i that will be massively destabilising for the that will be massively destabilising for the whole that will be massively destabilising for the whole region, that will be massively destabilising for the whole region, so that will be massively destabilising for the whole region, so i that will be massively destabilising for the whole region, so i think for the whole region, so i think that for the whole region, so i think that will for the whole region, so i think that will really for the whole region, so i think that will really be for the whole region, so i think that will really be the for the whole region, so i think that will really be the focus i for the whole region, so i think that will really be the focus of. That will really be the focus of what that will really be the focus of what we that will really be the focus of what we are that will really be the focus of what we are trying that will really be the focus of what we are trying to that will really be the focus of what we are trying to do, that will really be the focus of what we are trying to do, to l that will really be the focus of what we are trying to do, to prevent this from what we are trying to do, to prevent this from becoming what we are trying to do, to prevent this from becoming destabilising. I this from becoming destabilising. But in this from becoming destabilising. But in a this from becoming destabilising. But in a sense, this from becoming destabilising. But in a sense, this this from becoming destabilising. But in a sense, this idea this from becoming destabilising. But in a sense, this idea of but in a sense, this idea of proportionate response, we know the israelis will hit really hard which is essentially possibly going to make a disproportionate response, so who will pull the israelis back . We are not going to be doing that anytime are not going to be doing that anytime soon are not going to be doing that anytime soon. In are not going to be doing that anytime soon. In my are not going to be doing that. Anytime soon. In my experience are not going to be doing that anytime soon. In my experience in these anytime soon. In my experience in these words anytime soon. In my experience in these words and anytime soon. In my experience in these words and i anytime soon. In my experience in these words and i have anytime soon. In my experience in these words and i have been anytime soon. In my experience in. These words and i have been through severat these words and i have been through several of these words and i have been through several of them, these words and i have been through several of them, we these words and i have been through several of them, we will these words and i have been through several of them, we will give these words and i have been through several of them, we will give the several of them, we will give the israetis several of them, we will give the israelis several several of them, we will give the israelis several weeks several of them, we will give the israelis several weeks before several of them, we will give the israelis several weeks before we| israelis several weeks before we start israelis several weeks before we start to israelis several weeks before we start to say israelis several weeks before we start to say to israelis several weeks before we start to say to them, israelis several weeks before we start to say to them, listen, israelis several weeks before we start to say to them, listen, you i start to say to them, listen, you have start to say to them, listen, you have to start to say to them, listen, you have to start start to say to them, listen, you have to start pulling start to say to them, listen, you have to start pulling back start to say to them, listen, you have to start pulling back here, i start to say to them, listen, you i have to start pulling back here, you have to start pulling back here, you have to have to start pulling back here, you have to take have to start pulling back here, you have to take more have to start pulling back here, you have to take more steps have to start pulling back here, you have to take more steps to have to start pulling back here, you have to take more steps to prevent| have to take more steps to prevent civilian have to take more steps to prevent civilian casualties have to take more steps to prevent civilian casualties but have to take more steps to prevent civilian casualties but i have to take more steps to prevent civilian casualties but i think civilian casualties but i think right civilian casualties but i think right now civilian casualties but i think right now with civilian casualties but i think right now with the civilian casualties but i think right now with the united i civilian casualties but i think right now with the United States at the bide right now with the United States at the Biden Administration right now with the United States at the Biden Administration we right now with the United States at the Biden Administration we will. The Biden Administration we will stay squarely the Biden Administration we will stay squarely behind the Biden Administration we will stay squarely behind israel the Biden Administration we will stay squarely behind israel andi the Biden Administration we will. Stay squarely behind israel and try to prevent stay squarely behind israel and try to prevent this stay squarely behind israel and try to prevent this from stay squarely behind israel and try to prevent this from blowing stay squarely behind israel and try to prevent this from blowing up. L to prevent this from blowing up. Thank to prevent this from blowing up. Thank you to prevent this from blowing up. Thank you very to prevent this from blowing up. Thank you very much. Thats all from us tonight. Ill be here tomorrow and mark will be injerusalem. We leave you with scenes tonight of buildings around the world lit up in solidarity with israel after the shocking events of saturday. Goodnight