Transcripts For BBCNEWS Newsnight 20240703

Rishi sunak claims to be a low tax tory yet with the tax burden at its highests since records began, tonight 3 group of 33 of his own mps are asking him to put his money where his mouth is. Its the eve of the tory Party Conference, maybe the last one before the general election. What can rishi sunak do to cut through with voters . I think there are a number of sacred cows that might need to be slaughtered. Cows that might need to be slau~htered. ,. , slaughtered. The pest that you can sa of him slaughtered. The pest that you can say of him a slaughtered. The pest that you can say of him a that slaughtered. The pest that you can say of him a that he slaughtered. The pest that you can say of him a that he has slaughtered. The pest that you can say of him a that he has not slaughtered. The pest that you can say of him a that he has not yet. Say of him a that he has not yet shown say of him a that he has not yet shown himself to be as dishonest as johnson shown himself to be as dishonest as johnson and not as useless as liz truss while our economics editor Ben Chu Looks at the scope for any tax cuts, the reality is that a big driver of uk tax increases in recent years has been an ageing population and this pressure is only expected to grow. What does it all mean for you . Well be chewing it over with a Newsnight Panel and tv illusionist, sceptic and author derren brown tells us how to be happy. Happiness really comes from a sense of meaning and you find meaning in your life just of meaning and you find meaning in your lifejust by finding of meaning and you find meaning in your life just by finding something bigger than yourself that you can lose yourself in, whatever that is. On the eve of conference, 33 of the Prime Ministers own mps have written to the times saying they will not vote for any further tax rises, saying that you cannot tax the economy back to health. This against a backdrop of a report saying tax levels in the uk are higher than any time since the aftermath of world war two. Ben will be here in a moment to look at why the tax burden is so high and how that compares to other countries. Meanwhile, the pm has given an interview to the sun saying he will, end the war on drivers. So, as the Party Faithful head to manchester for what may be the final conference before a general election, nick has been looking at rishi sunak� s new approach sunak� s new approach. A serious leader for a Serious Mission rescuing his party from itself, a year steadying the ship and vanquishing foes. Now time for a bolder phase two challenging shibboleths. Ive spent my first year as Prime Minister bringing Back Stability to our economy, your government and our country. And now it is time to address the bigger long term questions we face. Well, i think that there are a number of sacred cows that might need to be slaughtered as we make the changes that are necessary for the country. And so were seeing now rishi sunak come out with clarity of what the position is for him and for his party. I and that clarity is very different i from where we were at the beginning of his premiership. I think the best you can say of him is that hes not yet shown himself to be as dishonest asjohnson and hes not as utterly useless as liz truss. But i wouldnt put it much beyond that. Challenging times. And so a new phase in which rishi sunak sets himself apart from his immediate tory predecessors and the labour guy trying to replace him. All of that devised up there by the no 10 kitchen cabinet, throwing the kitchen sink at a more muscular approach for the general election. And that has two core aims allowing rishi sunak to create his own luck by stamping his mark on core areas like net zero. And by changing tack on areas where there had been an agreed cross party position, hoping to leave labour exposed. And so weve seen, still sticking by the original 2050 net zero target, but delaying the phasing out of petrol and diesel cars. Labour is sticking with the original timetable, allowing the tories to portray themselves as the motorist� s friend. And then possibly delaying or scrapping the second leg of h52. If labour stick by the original plan, if it changes, expect tory cries of, how are you going to pay for that . And i think he very much believes that you have to shake the system up to get improvements and that hes certainly not going to be about managed decline, which too many Prime Ministers have been willing to settle for. A conservative veteran who has the ear of rishi sunak believes hes capturing the Insurgent Spirit of the early margaret thatcher, even from government. What you found in 1979 was you had a labour party that was intellectually incapable of providing the answers for the country, whereas thatcher and conservatives had a whole range of views about how they could take the country forward. And i think what we saw with the net zero changes was the Prime Minister beginning to set out an intellectual, Coherent Agenda that will shape the message that the conservatives will take to the next election. And i see todays labour party as being just as incapable of answering the Big Questions as the callaghan government was in 1979. What weve seen over the last nine months or so is that actually peoples perceptions of him have become increasingly more negative. A pollster sees a Prime Minister heading into challenging waters. We can see the public do have views that have been shaped over the last year around rishi sunak. Theyre increasingly likely to say that they feel hes out of touch with people. Thats not the end of the world, actually, when you have a look back, other leaders like thatcher and even blair would have high degrees of the population who would say they were out of touch at key moments in time. But what were also seeing is a softening of Public Agreement that rishi sunak is a capable, capable Prime Minister, that he has sound judgment. Kelly beaver thinks theres some hope for rishi sunak, because keir starmer onlyjust edges him on who would make the best Prime Minister. There is an opportunity for rishi and his party, with demonstrated ability to deliver and solve some of the issues facing the country and make progress, to try to start to tip that balance a little bit. The Voting Intention Gap is sizeable, its still sizeable and its remained quite sticky over the last 12 months. So that is going to be a very difficult challenge for them to compensate. Now were going to see the real rishi. I all they care about is having this kind of narrative to pump out. Through their friends in the media and out there i think people have stopped listening. I one of the architects of new labour believes rishi sunak is hamstrung by mistakes from day one. Rishi sunak hasnt recovered from i failing to seize the opportunity. That he had at the start. I think he could and should have said he was genuinely going to be different. And so when he stood and said he was going to be about professionalism, accountability and integrity, we know why he said that. That was his attempt to say, im going to be different to what weve had before with. Johnson and truss in particular. And i dont think, frankly, it has been that different. Because, and i think his recent speech on the on the climate, i i think he became. Thats where he became a full populist, polarizing, post truth politician. The seven bins that were proposed by nobody. A cautious pace, taking his place on the global stage. But, as a rishi sunak turns a corner in his premiership, we can expect a more combative force. There will be plenty of conservatives at the Party Conference clamouring for tax cuts to be offered ahead of the next election indeed some of his mps fired the starting gun on the tax debate tonight. But weve also had confirmation from the independent institue for fiscal studies that this is on course to be the biggest tax raising Parliament Since the war. Why is that the case . Because its not all to do with the pandemic. Bens here. Theres pressure for tax cuts from the Conservative Party going into this conference, but the opposite has been the reality over this parliament, hasnt it . As the Institute For Fiscal Studies has shown today, the increase in the tax share as a proportion of the whole economy is set to be the largest of any post war parliament. As you can see, its projected to go up by 4 of National Income outsripping all previous parliaments, either with tory governments, in blue, or labour, in red. Divide that by the size of the population and it works out at around £3,500 each although the burden has not been equally felt across the population. But its important to recognise that a considerable proportion of this increase in the tax burden is being driven by increased spending on health and pensions. And this age related spending is projected to continue growing as the Uk Population continues to get older on average. This shows health, in blue, and pensions in pink. You can see an additional £140 billion by 2035, or around 7 of National Income. Is this a financial challenge thats only facing the uk . By no means. Its important to put some context around this and lets use newsnight� s global tracker to do so. Between 2020 and 2070 the old age dependency ratio in the uk thats the share of people over retirement age relative to the working age population is projected to rise from around 30 to 48 . A rise of 18 Percentage Points a hefty increase. But, as you can see, a similar thing is set to happen right across the developed world. Australia up 17 , the United States 28 . A huge surge in korea. And thats an environment that is going to make it very hard for any government to cut taxes. Indeed most Public Finance experts expect further upward pressure on taxes as a share of National Income, as a result of these demographic trends. And thats true notjust in the uk, but anywhere in the developed world. And a final point. In the two years after 2019, the uk shown by the green line had a bigger increase in taxes relative to the developed world average, the purple line up 1. 3 of gdp versus 0. 7 . But in the decade preceding that we had a much smaller rise up 0. 2 versus 1. 2 . And overall since the 2008 financial crisis the rise in the uks tax burden has actually been smaller than comparable countries. The ifs say the tax rises weve seen in recent years are effectively belated catch up when it comes to tax rises. Their view is that this underlines that there are demographic forces putting upward pressure on uk taxes pressure which governments can perhaps resist for a time, but Cannot Realistically resist forever. Thank you, ben. And we did ask almost all of those 33 mps to come on the programme tonight none of them were able to join us. But weve got a friday night Politics Panel for you. Zoe grunewald, policy and politics correspondent for the left leaning new statesman magazine. Ben riley smith, Political Editor of the conservative supporting daily telegraph. And james kirkup, partner at the consultancy apella advisors and Senior Fellow at the cross party social Market Foundation and writer for the times. We got it all in. So this pressure from his own mps tonight, ben, what do you make of it . It from his own mps tonight, ben, what do you make of it . Do you make of it . It shows the slits in do you make of it . It shows the splits in the do you make of it . It shows the splits in the tory do you make of it . It shows the splits in the tory party do you make of it . It shows the splits in the tory party are do you make of it . It shows the j splits in the tory party are deep and real. Fora splits in the tory party are deep and real. For a year that has been masked by under rishi sunak they have been trying to patch things together. They wanted to put forward a united front. But we are a year into his premiership and there is a tackle about when you cut taxes, is it now or in march. It shows the liz truss supporters are there. She had been defending other mini budget and a few of the names in that group are people who were in her cabinet. What people who were in her cabinet. What ressure people who were in her cabinet. What pressure if any people who were in her cabinet. What pressure if any does people who were in her cabinet. What pressure if any does it people who were in her cabinet. What pressure if any does it put on labour . Because they are having the conversations about if they win the election, and it is going to be hard for them . ,. ,. , for them . Yes, one of the things that labour for them . Yes, one of the things that labour is for them . Yes, one of the things that labour is always for them . Yes, one of the things that labour is always scrutinised | that labour is always scrutinised about that labour is always scrutinised about i that labour is always scrutinised about i is that labour is always scrutinised about i is what they are going to do with the about i is what they are going to do with the public purse and taxes. The criticism with the public purse and taxes. The criticism is with the public purse and taxes. The criticism is they put up peoples taxes criticism is they put up peoples taxes and criticism is they put up peoples taxes and so far starmer and Rachel Reeves taxes and so far starmer and Rachel Reeves have been keen to show they wont reeves have been keen to show they wontiust reeves have been keen to show they wontjust put up reeves have been keen to show they wont just put up taxes, reeves have been keen to show they wontjust put up taxes, but reeves have been keen to show they wont just put up taxes, but they are looking for reform and want to see changes to Public Services without see changes to Public Services without taxing the public more. But there without taxing the public more. But there is without taxing the public more. But there is a without taxing the public more. But there is a question to bed a asked that we there is a question to bed a asked that we do there is a question to bed a asked that we do have problems such as an ageing that we do have problems such as an ageing population and nhs and other public ageing population and nhs and other Public Services under pressure. Will labour Public Services under pressure. Will labour be Public Services under pressure. Will labour be able to generate enough money, labour be able to generate enough money, through investment and closing money, through investment and closing loopholes and reform and a lot of closing loopholes and reform and a lot of people will ask, actually are tax rises lot of people will ask, actually are tax rises inevitable whether labour or conservatives . We had the announcement about pushing back the ban on petrol and diesel cars, what sort of strategy is he pursuing . In diesel cars, what sort of strategy is he pursuing . Is he pursuing . In a sense it is a core vote is he pursuing . In a sense it is a core vote strategy, is he pursuing . In a sense it is a | core vote strategy, consolidating and showing core vote strategy, consolidating and showing up core vote strategy, consolidating and showing up the core vote strategy, consolidating and showing up the Tory Core Vote strategy, consolidating and showing up the tory vote core vote strategy, consolidatingj and showing up the tory vote but its not and showing up the tory vote but its not totally and showing up the tory vote but its not totally rational and showing up the tory vote but its not totally rational because. Its not totally rational because that strategy its not totally rational because that strategy when its not totally rational because that strategy when youre its not totally rational because that strategy when youre defending a majority that strategy when youre defending a majority sense, that strategy when youre defending a majority sense, what that strategy when youre defending a majority sense, what he that strategy when youre defending a majority sense, what he needs that strategy when youre defending a majority sense, what he needs toi a majority sense, what he needs to do is a majority sense, what he needs to do is get a majority sense, what he needs to do is get as a majority sense, what he needs to do is get as many a majority sense, what he needs to do is get as many of a majority sense, what he needs to do is get as many of the a majority sense, what he needs to do is get as many of the people a majority sense, what he needs tol do is get as many of the people who voted do is get as many of the people who voted for do is get as many of the people who voted for the do is get as many of the people who voted for the conservatives do is get as many of the people who voted for the conservatives in do is get as many of the people who voted for the conservatives in 2019 voted for the conservatives in 2019 to vote voted for the conservatives in 2019 to vote for voted for the conservatives in 2019 to vote for him voted for the conservatives in 2019 to vote for him again. Voted for the conservatives in 2019 to vote for him again. He voted for the conservatives in 2019 to vote for him again. He does voted for the conservatives in 2019 to vote for him again. He does not| to vote for him again. He does not need to vote for him again. He does not need to to vote for him again. He does not need to make to vote for him again. He does not need to make new to vote for him again. He does not need to make new friends, to vote for him again. He does not need to make new friends, he to vote for him again. He does not. Need to make new friends, he needs his old need to make new friends, he needs his old ones need to make new friends, he needs his old ones it need to make new friends, he needs his old ones. It all need to make new friends, he needs his old ones. It all about his old ones. It all about motivating his old ones. It all about motivating that his old ones. It all about motivating that group, l his old ones. It all about motivating that group, giving his old ones. It all about motivating that group, giving them a reason motivating that group, giving them a reason to motivating that group, giving them a reason to turn motivating that group, giving them a reason to turn out motivating that group, giving them a reason to turn out and motivating that group, giving them a reason to turn out and vote motivating that group, giving them a reason to turn out and vote for motivating that group, giving them a reason to turn out and vote for a reason to turn out and vote for a party reason to turn out and vote for a party that reason to turn out and vote for a party that has reason to turn out and vote for a party that has been reason to turn out and vote for a party that has been in reason to turn out and vote for a party that has been in power reason to turn out and vote for a party that has been in power for| reason to turn out and vote for a l party that has been in power for 13 years. Party that has been in power for 13 years. Everything party that has been in power for 13 years, everything Falling Party that has been in power for 13 years, Everything Falling Living years, Everything Falling Living standards, the years, Everything Falling Living standards, the crumbling years, Everything Falling Living standards, the crumbling of. Years, Everything Falling Living i standards, the crumbling of the state. Standards, the crumbling of the state. Ail standards, the crumbling of the state, all those standards, the crumbling of the state, all those things, standards, the crumbling of the state, all those things, its standards, the crumbling of the state, all those things, its a i state, all those things, its a tough state, all those things, its a toughiob state, all those things, its a toughiob but state, all those things, its a toughjob but it state, all those things, its a toughjob but it is state, all those things, its a toughjob but it is best state, all those things, its a toughjob but it is best shotl state, all those things, its a i toughjob but it is best shot at Doing Toughjob but it is best shot at doing it toughjob but it is best shot at doing it is tough job but it is best shot at doin it. ,. ,. , doing it. Is it credible that rishi sunak can doing it. Is it credible that rishi sunak can present doing it. Is it credible that rishi sunak can present himself doing it. Is it credible that rishi sunak can present himself as i doing it. Is it credible that rishi sunak can present himself as some kind of change candidate when they have been in powerfor 13 years . Its very hard because every voter will look at the objectives and say that every problem in my life, you have had 13 years to fix it so why are you different compared to the other four guys whove come before . Ive been working on a book looking at that whole since 2010. Its a at that whole since 2010. Its a very good at that whole since 2010. Its a very good book at that whole since 2010. Its a very good book talking at that whole since 2010. Its a very good book talking to at that whole since 2010. Its a very good book talking to 120 j very good book talking to 120 different figures very good book talking to 120 different figures inside very good book talking to 120 different figures inside the very good book talking to 120 i different figures inside the party and one thing they are very good at is changing and shape shifting in power to try to win the next election and you can see them going through this, especially in the last month, trying to calm things down for yet year are now thinking, what issues can i zoom in on relentlessly to try and draw these Dividing Lines with labour . And it has worked in the past. With labour . And it has worked in the ast. , the past. There was something sli. Htl the past. There was something slightly odd the past. There was something slightly odd about the past. There was something slightly odd about the the past. There was something slightly odd about the net the past. There was something slightly odd about the net zero | slightly odd about the net zero framing slightly odd about the net zero framing of slightly odd about the net zero framing of the slightly odd about the net zero framing of the prime slightly odd about the net zero framing of the Prime Ministerl framing of the Prime Minister effectively framing of the Prime Minister effectively promising framing of the Prime Minister effectively promising to framing of the Prime Minister. Effectively promising to oppose framing of the Prime Minister effectively promising to oppose his own government effectively promising to oppose his own Government Policies effectively promising to oppose his own Government Policies were own Government Policies were standing own Government Policies were standing up own Government Policies were standing up and own Government Policies were standing up and saying, own Government Policies were standing up and saying, we i own Government Policies were. Standing up and saying, we were thinking standing up and saying, we were thinking about standing up and saying, we were thinking about doing standing up and saying, we were thinking about doing this standing up and saying, we were thinking about doing this but standing up and saying, we were thinking about doing this but we| thinking about doing this but we wont. Thinking about doing this but we wont. You thinking about doing this but we wont. You can thinking about doing this but we wont, you can thank thinking about doing this but we wont, you can thank me thinking about doing this but we wont, you can thank me for thinking about doing this but we. Wont, you can thank me for that. Its wont, you can thank me for that. Its a wont, you can thank me for that. Its a bit wont, you can thank me for that. Its a bit over wont, you can thank me for that. Its a bit over clever. Wont, you can thank me for that. Its a bit over clever. Wont, you can thank me for that. Its a bit over clever. Last autumn we had this its a bit over clever. Last autumn we had this been bizarre its a bit over clever. Last autumn we had this been bizarre scenario| we had this been bizarre scenario with a tory promise to saying that debt is fine and we can dip into this popularfree money to do debt is fine and we can dip into this popular free money to do tax cuts and kick start the economy, and two months later, seven weeks later, you had something, debt is evil and the epitome of sin and we cannot touch that money and we have to stick to trying to bring down inflation rather than cut taxes and now youre getting a shift again. The public are entitled to think, which group of tories should i believe . ,. , which group of tories should i believe . ,. , ~. , believe . James talk about him hanuain believe . James talk about him hanging onto believe . James talk about him hanging onto the believe . James talk about him hanging onto the core believe . James talk about him hanging onto the core vote believe . James talk about him hanging onto the Core Vote Hanging On to the core vote to achieve what . Not just arithmetically speaking, if you can not just arithmetically speaking, if you can get not just arithmetically speaking, if you can get the not just arithmetically speaking, if you can get the same not just arithmetically speaking, if you can get the same bunch not just arithmetically speaking, if you can get the same bunch of not just arithmetically speaking, if. You can get the same bunch of people who gave you can get the same bunch of people who gave me majority you can get the same bunch of people who gave me majority in 2019, who gave me majority in 2019, he wins who gave me majority in 2019, he winsagain. His who gave me majority in 2019, he wins again, his defence majority. I wins again, his defence majority. [53 it wins again, his defence majority. It realistic when you think that so many of those former Labour Voters, as borisjohnson put it, lent their vote to the conservatives so will they stick around for rishi sunak . There were a fair amount of Labour Voters there were a fair amount of Labour Voters who there were a fair amount of Labour Voters who voted conservative in 2019 voters who voted conservative in 2019 in voters who voted conservative in 2019 in part because they wanted to see the 2019 in part because they wanted to see the end of the brexit deadlock in parliament. There was also issues with the Labour Leadership for some labour with the Labour Leadership for some Labour Voters as well and we dont have those Labour Voters as well and we dont have those issues any more. I think people have those issues any more. I think people are, as ben said, feeling like after people are, as ben said, feeling like after 13 years, are they feeling like after 13 years, are they feeling better off under this conservative government . You think thats what it conservative government . You think thats what it will conservative government . You think thats what it will come conservative government . You think thats what it will come down to . Thats what it will come down to . You can have net zero and petrol and diesel thing, im not going to make you use for recycling even though i never was, people are going to say, am i better off or not . Is that what it is going to be . It is going to be . Thats the word think about net it is going to be . Thats the word think about net zero, we it is going to be . Thats the word l think about net zero, we talk about whether someone would have to buy a new petrol Car Stop Buying that cut in seven years or now 12 years, and why the ulez thing was so powerful, next month these people will have to pay £12. 50 more per day. About pay £12. 50 more per day. And rishi sunaks net zero pay £12. 50 more per day. And rishi sunaks net zero uturn has pay £12. 50 more per day. And rishi sunaks net zero uturn has fed pay £12. 50 more per day. And rishi| sunaks net zero uturn has fed into sunaks net zero u turn has fed into this, basically saying i dont want to cost this, basically saying i dont want to cost you more money and we dont have the to cost you more money and we dont have the money, but people are still fundamentally worried about their mortgages, the cost of their groceries and their bills and while Sunak Groceries and their bills and while sunak is groceries and their bills and while sunak is talking about electric cars and boilers, most people are thinking, and boilers, most people are thinking, hang on. It and boilers, most people are thinking, hang on. And boilers, most people are thinking, hang on. It was partly done to try thinking, hang on. It was partly done to try to thinking, hang on. It was partly done to try to set thinking, hang on. It was partly done to try to set up thinking, hang on. It was partly done to try to set up a thinking, hang on. It was partly done to try to set up a trap for i done to try to set up a trap for labour done to try to set up a trap for labour to done to try to set up a trap for labour to take done to try to set up a trap for labour to take them done to try to set up a trap for labour to take them in done to try to set up a trap for labour to take them in the done to try to set up a trap for i labour to take them in the hope done to try to set up a trap for labour to take them in the hope that they would labour to take them in the hope that they would say, labour to take them in the hope that they would say. We labour to take them in the hope that they would say, we will labour to take them in the hope that they would say, we will keep they would say, we will keep the boiler they would say, we will keep the Boiler Targets they would say, we will keep the Boiler Targets so they would say, we will keep the Boiler Targets so they they would say, we will keep the Boiler Targets so they can they would say, we will keep the Boiler Targets so they can put they would say, we will keep the Boiler Targets so they can put a i Boiler Targets so they can put a nice big Boiler Targets so they can put a nice big post up Boiler Targets so they can put a nice big post up saying, Boiler Targets so they can put a nice big post up saying, dont i nice big post up saying, dont vote labour nice big post up saying, dont vote labour or they nice big post up saying, dont vote labour or they will rip nice big post up saying, dont vote labour or they will rip your oil labour or they will rip your oil out and Charge Labour or they will rip your oil out and charge you labour or they will rip your oil out and charge you 15 ground labour or they will rip your oil out and charge you 15 ground and labour or they will rip your oil out| and charge you 15 ground and they would and charge you 15 ground and they would have said and charge you 15 ground and they would have said fine, and charge you 15 ground and they would have said fine, well would have said fine, well accept that would have said fine, well accept that. ,. , would have said fine, well accept that. ~ , would have said fine, well accept that. ~ ,. ,. , that. I also think they had a glimpse of that. I also think they had a glimpse of hope of that. I also think they had a glimpse of hope of the uxbridge by election when they saw may be green by election when they saw may be green issues are something we can exploit green issues are something we can exploit because the public dont really like it but i think they must read and really like it but i think they must read and extrapolate the results. Ulez was read and extrapolate the results. Ulez was immediate pain, not something ulez was immediate pain, not something 15 ulez was immediate pain, not something 15 years ulez was immediate pain, not something 15 years of. Ulez was immediate pain, not something 15 years of. In ulez was immediate pain, not something 15 years of. In terms of this conference, something 15 years of. In terms of this conference, are something 15 years of. In terms of this conference, are we something 15 years of. In terms of this conference, are we going, something 15 years of. In terms of| this conference, are we going, and we have got this group of mps already putting pressure on the Prime Minister, not that unusual i suppose, they want tax cuts to be offered before the election and we had jeremy hunt a week ago saying it would be a possible until the economy gets better, if it ever will, but are we going to see a Battle For The Tory Party . You seeing evidence . Evidence that the conservatives are thinking about life in opposition . Conservatives are thinking about life in opposition . This will be my 22nd Conservative life in opposition . This will be my 22nd Conservative Party life in opposition . This will be my i 22nd Conservative Party Conference, i 22nd Conservative Party Conference, i know 22nd Conservative Party Conference, i know and 22nd Conservative Party Conference, i know and everyone 22nd Conservative Party Conference, i know and everyone there 22nd Conservative Party Conference, i know and everyone there is 22nd Conservative Party Conference, i know and everyone there is a i know and everyone there is a debate i know and everyone there is a debate about i know and everyone there is a debate about the i know and everyone there is a debate about the future i know and everyone there is a debate about the future of debate about the future of conservatives debate about the future of conservatives and debate about the future of conservatives and what i debate about the future of conservatives and what iti debate about the future of. Conservatives and what it is debate about the future of conservatives and what it is to be lifted conservatives and what it is to be lifted and conservatives and what it is to be lifted and someone conservatives and what it is to be lifted and someone say, conservatives and what it is to be lifted and someone say, Whoeverj Conservatives and what it is to be. Lifted and someone say, whoever is in charge lifted and someone say, whoever is in charge in lifted and someone say, whoever is in charge in not being in charge in not being conservative enough. In charge in not being conservative enough. And they in charge in not being conservative enough, and they love it. In charge in not being conservative enough, and they love it. Its a enough, and they love it. Its a hobb. �. ,. ,. ,. , hobby. But not in all of them do you have a scenario hobby. But not in all of them do you have a scenario where this hobby. But not in all of them do you have a scenario where this time hobby. But not in all of them do you| have a scenario where this time next year. Have a scenario where this time next ear. ,. , have a scenario where this time next ear. ,. ,. , will keep that boiler target, they have to do what they can, i suppose, to make sure they dont fall into those obvious traps . To make sure they dont fall into those obvious traps . Absolutely and i think those obvious traps . Absolutely and i think some those obvious traps . Absolutely and i think some of those obvious traps . Absolutely and i think some of the those obvious traps . Absolutely and i think some of the public i think some of the public frustration with labour at is they are not frustration with labour at is they are not differentiating themselves enough are not differentiating themselves enough from what the conservatives are offering. And i think a lot of it so are offering. And i think a lot of it so far are offering. And i think a lot of it so far has are offering. And i think a lot of it so far has been trying to avoid conservative traps. But it so far has been trying to avoid conservative traps. Conservative traps. But they are stickin conservative traps. But they are sticking with conservative traps. But they are sticking with the conservative traps. But they are sticking with the 2030 conservative traps. But they are sticking with the 2030 ban conservative traps. But they are sticking with the 2030 ban on i conservative traps. But they are sticking with the 2030 ban on petrol and diesel cars. I sticking with the 2030 ban on petrol and diesel cars. And diesel cars. I think now they feel as if they and diesel cars. I think now they feel as if they actually and diesel cars. I think now they feel as if they actually need and diesel cars. I think now they feel as if they actually need to i feel as if they actually need to come feel as if they actually need to come out feel as if they actually need to come out and look sunak in the eyes and say, come out and look sunak in the eyes and say, we come out and look sunak in the eyes and say, we are happy with our policy and say, we are happy with our oli. F. , and say, we are happy with our oli. J. ,. ,. , policy. Theyre not that frustrated with labour, policy. Theyre not that frustrated with labour, there policy. Theyre not that frustrated with labour, there 20 policy. Theyre not that frustrated with labour, there 20 points policy. Theyre not that frustrated l with labour, there 20 points ahead in the with labour, there 20 points ahead in the polls with labour, there 20 points ahead in the polls. Thats with labour, there 20 points ahead in the polls. Thats not with labour, there 20 points ahead in the polls. Thats not a with labour, there 20 points ahead in the polls. Thats not a terrible i in the polls. Thats not a terrible problem in the polls. Thats not a terrible roblem. � ~ ,. Problem. But mps will tell you they hit on the doorstep problem. But mps will tell you they hit on the doorstep people problem. But mps will tell you they hit on the doorstep people saying i | hit on the doorstep people saying i dont like hit on the doorstep people saying i dont like the tories but im not sure dont like the tories but im not sure what dont like the tories but im not sure what starmer is offering the challenge sure what starmer is offering the challenge they have to really focus on at challenge they have to really focus on at the challenge they have to really focus on at the conference. Challenge they have to really focus on at the conference. Thank you all very much on at the conference. Thank you all very much for on at the conference. Thank you all very much for giving on at the conference. Thank you all very much for giving up on at the conference. Thank you all very much for giving up your on at the conference. Thank you all very much for giving up your friday| very much for giving up your friday evening to evening to talk to our viewers, we appreciate it. In tv illusionist, sceptic and author Derren Browns new stage show, his opening premise is the contrary line that everyone you meet is performing a magic trick, presenting the bits we want people to see and hiding the other stuff. In this production which opened at the Criterion Theare in london this week, unusually, hes not front and centre. Ive been talking to him about what he feels his purpose is, about how you achieve happiness and why, in his 20s, he felt ashamed of being gay. But first, the new show. Wejust opened. Its so exciting. Its called unbelievable. And its a magic show. Im not in it. So this is my first directing and writing debut. And i suppose the three of us that have made my show over the last 20 years have tried to re envision what a mind reading show could be. So now were doing the same with magic. Its a multi talented cast. Theyre musicians. They bring all these other skills to it. Its a real joy. And its been a long journey getting to this point. And itsjust wonderful seeing the audiences have a phenomenal time. Its just such a joy. Normally the magician is making it about themselves, normally himself. Thats sort of and just saying, look how clever i am. And that was all the stuff we wanted to shed. Its a very ego less show. Do you think to some extent were all performers and we all present the bits that we want others to see and hide the bits that we dont . That is exactly what this show� s about. It was the starting point for this show, that were all doing a magic trick, because the problem is, yes, we all do that, right . We present to the world this best version of ourselves. And of course, thats fine. And then there is this inner world going on with all the stuff that, like in a magic trick, you want to hide, all the embarrassing, clumsy, awkward, ugly, weird stuff that you just wouldnt want anyone to know about. But we make the mistake of. We see other peoples outsides and we make the comparison between their outsides and our insides. And thats a category mistake. Its a really, its just a, its comparing apples and oranges. Itsjust a, its a bad idea because were going to make ourselves feel bad because we know all that inside world too much and particularly in the age of instagram and everything, which is just that writ large, this curated theatre of triumph so i think getting that right is important, particularly if youve grown up and youve only known that instagram mode. It turns out that gratitude is a really helpful way out of that, being grateful for the things you have. You have spent a lot of your professional life observing other people, working out what makes them tick. What makes you tick . Whats your purpose . Thats a really interesting question, isnt it . I think as you grow up, that changes. Its not, i dont say this with any overweening sense of false modesty, it certainly isnt being famous or any of that. And somewhere along the line, i think you learn that, and ive thought a lot about happiness, that the happiness really comes from a sense of meaning. And you find meaning in your life reallyjust by finding something bigger than yourself that you can lose yourself in, whatever that is. If you try and chase it directly, it slips through your fingers. I think the rainbow is a very good image for happiness because the closer you get to it, itjust recedes. So you have to find it indirectly. And. This is like therapy this is good. I wanted to ask you, if its ok with you, if you had your time again, would you have waited till you were 31 before you came out . Its late, isnt it . It is late. But i, i, i have thought about this because it is so important to come out, whatever, about whatever, whatever these things are. Because of course what you realise is that no one cares. And thats why its liberating, because you go, oh, if they didnt care about the big thing that ive been feeling ashamed about for years, then they certainly dont care about all the other stuff. You used the word ashamed then. Did you feel ashamed . Big time, yeah. Did you . I had a very comfortable place for shame and magic, that awful sort of outmoded cliche, which i guess i grew up with, of the gay man, in particular being like, you know, the hairdresser or the theatrical type or the Interior Designer or the fashion. All of those things are, its all about deflecting surfaces, shiny surfaces that are deflecting from whats difficult underneath. And a lot of magicians start off as under confident young men. Its important to grow through it, of course, otherwise you just become an awkward old man. In this show, you, i dont think im giving too much away here, but you reference the magicians assistant. It did occur to me, when you look back across the history of magic, and i say this with a lot of love for the magic community, but it is a bit odd that weve just sort of accepted it as fine that women will be put in boxes and mutilated. Thats just kind of like sort of a. Its just a really odd thing. So we did want to sort ofjust highlight that because the reality is, not only is that an oddly recurring narrative, but invariably, those women are doing the most extraordinary work, which is, not only are they doing the work to make the trick work, but its physically often horrendous and theyre getting injured. Because you can sort of imagine the kind of contortions theyre having to go through to make these tricks work. Not getting any credit for it. You know, the guy at the end is normally taking the bow. So its no surprise that its only really recently that women have sort of found their place in magic because what an odd sort of role model, really. And also its very, has been very sexualised as well. So its taken a while and, like, a couple of president s ago of the magic circle, we had ourfirst female. Im not a member of the magic circle, but they had theirfirst female president , which was wonderful. And she was very, very popular. So its all, it is all changing, but it has, its taken a long time, i think, for that world to just to catch up, because if youre a guy getting into magic, theres a million role models, but its a relatively fresh thing but god knows we need it. Derren brown, thank you for talking to us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Its been so lovely. Thank you. Thats all from us tonight. Im back monday. We are at the conservative Party Conference live from manchester, have a brilliant weekend, good night. This is bbc news. With 21 republicans joining with 21 republicansjoining House Democrats to vote no. That wouldve kept things going for several weeks. Lawmakers are scheduled to meet on saturday for more votes, and after the earlier failed attempt to pass a bill, Kevin Mccarthy said it