Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20240704

How to make repression work . Nathan law, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you so much for having me again, stephen. Well, its a pleasure to have you back in the studio. We talked last soon after you fled from hong kong. Youve been living a life in exile for pretty much three years now. But your situation has changed recently because the chinese authorities or the hong kong authorities, i should say have put a bounty on your head of1 million hong kong dollars. What difference has that made . Well, its definitely a step up of the Intimidation Tactics that the chinese and Hong Kong Government has been using. For me, ive been wanted on several other charges, but putting a bounty on someones head is completely new. Like, when i google and search on the list of bounties from the governments list, its actually quite strange because you saw people who are wanted under homicide or any other serious crimes, they were wanted with 300,000 hong kong dollars and we were, like, triple of their bounties. But the charges, of course, are very serious. Incitement to secession, collusion with Foreign Forces to endanger National Security, and hong kongs chief executive, relatively new in office, john lee, has said that you and the others who are now on this bounty list will be pursued for life, like, he says, rats on the street. Theyre serious. Well, this kind of harsh tone from john lee is kind of expected. And, for us, its definitely fabricated charges. If you look at how the beijing government and Hong Kong Government weaponised the idea of National Security, people could break National Security just because of theyre chanting a slogan. And we just have to wonder, like, how fragile the National Security is, for people just to chant a slogan to break it. Its definitely a weapon to persecute activists, no matter theyre in hong kong or overseas, and to make them to stop what theyre doing. Yeah, i mean, amongst their methods are putting Pressure Notjust on you, but on family and friends, and some of them, of course, still in hong kong. So how effective is that . Because i know, in recent weeks, your family has felt this directly. This is definitely outrageous. Like, when we look at the persecution in hong kong, its getting more and more similar to Mainland China. There are a lot of human rights activists, the most famous one, liu xiaobo, the Nobel Peace Prize winner in 2010, they all got arrested, being Put Injailfor years, just because of they are speaking up against the government. Whats more scary is their families also face similar situations. But your families have been questioned, they were briefly detained. And are they saying to you, nathan, weve got a real problem here . For now, definitely, we dont have any direct communication. And the government is trying to fabricate a scenario where they think that there are lots of people in hong kong no matter its my former colleagues or, like, family members, they are actively supporting my advocacy work, which are. And funding you thats an allegation. Which are absolutely false. I dont think they can provide any evidence of these connections because there are not and its really, for them, they are trying to make the scene of an exile activist, like, working closely with people who are still in hong kong and trying to make a case of it. And its just astonishing. But nonetheless, this is, psychologically, i imagine, it is difficult. I mean, your parents are still in hong kong. They have made a point of not being in contact with you. But nonetheless, do you feel a certain guilt that they are being dragged into this again . So, three years ago, when i left hong kong, i issue a public statement, saying that im severing my ties with them because i knew that hong kong would eventually take up these steps, like Mainland China. And the forecast realised and, for me, its definitely painful because family members, even though i issued a statement saying were severing ties with them, but they are one of the most important people to you. Mm. And no matter what happened to them, it makes me feel bad. But that is what the Chinese Government wants. They want to threaten you by going after your family, so you can stop criticising them. And for anyone in this situation its a difficult choice. But for me, my choice is continue to speak up, continue to say whatever, that i can hold them accountable and to hope that one day, no matter in hong kong or in china, we can enjoy freedom and democracy. Lets talk about the situation for you in exile. You spend most of your time in the United Kingdom. You travel from your base here. Another hong kong exile, finn lau, who, like you, was part of the democracy movement, made also a base here in the uk. He clearly doesnt feel safe. He believes that britain is not taking seriously enough the very Real Security threat posed by the long reach of china inside the uk. He says it will take a chinese equivalent of the salisbury poisonings, that is the skripal poisonings, allegedly by russian agents, for the british to wake up to this real threat. Do you feel that . China definitely have an Extensive Surveillance Network in the United Kingdom. And of course, they are not. Probably not as violent in terms of attacking activists like russia, but if they are stepping up all those attacks, which would likely happen in the future, then definitely we are living in danger. Youve talked about the possibility of abduction. Was that a rhetorical device to get the British Government to take your security more seriously . Do you really mean it . I think theres always a fear like that because of how outrageous the Chinese Government has been acting. Its really easy to see that theyre becoming more and more aggressive more. More of, like, wolf warrior diplomacy in place. And this is not something that is fabricated or, like, fantasised. In thailand, there were some book sellers abducted in 2015. And weve got a new case where a Human Rights Lawyer in laos, hes almost being extradited back to Mainland China. And those are really, like, real cases that makes us fear whether that would happen on us. A recent parliamentary report issued in westminster in the United Kingdom said that the British Government was failing to address the china threat. They said that the government appeared to have no strategy. Even conservative mps, backers of Prime Minister rishi sunak, said that the British Government response to what they perceive to be the growing china threat was weak. Do you feel the same way . Definitely. We all felt the foreign minister, when he did the address about it, how hed been doing a lot of Diplomatic Missions to Mainland China, also sending a financial minister to hong kong, which had never happened in a few years. These are definitely signals of him sending a very soft tone to the country. Would you go as far as using the word appeasement . We can definitely see signs of appeasement, and that is definitely not what we wanted. This is when we look at how, like, the global democracy has been evolving, we see a huge threat of this authoritarian expansion, especially led by beijing and the current attitude of the current government makes us worried. Just focusing on your former colleagues in the Hong Kong Pro Democracy opposition, would you now acknowledge that that entire movement has effectively been eliminated inside hong kong . There are. There are no big protests. Peoples rights of protest and assembly are being taken away. For me, its definitely a big defeat. Big defeat . But when we look at. Yeah, its definitely a big defeat. But when we look at social movement, we look at from a historical perspective, things dont happen in a singular term. Its a series of movement that lasts decades. Maybe that was a big defeat for us, but i think there are still more and more years to go and people are becoming more and more determined, especially in the diasporic scene, where we have a lot more activism than before. Thing is, if you were chief minister lee and you looked at the situation in hong kong today, you might be quite satisfied not only as the National Security law effectively, as you would say, defeated the pro democracy opposition, but there are also signs that theyre confident enough to go further. There is the article 23 legislation, which is now being pushed forward, which actually takes further the National Security law makes it even harder for those in hong kong to express opinions and ties it, for example, to chinas Foreign Policy goals and strategies and ambitions, for example, in taiwan. So the chinese backed authorities in hong kong clearly feel they have the space, the room for manoeuvre to go further. Well, hong kong is definitely looking more like Mainland China in terms of political control and tactics of persecution. They are definitely very confident over it. But this is not the mistakes or problems of hong kong people, its the problem of why the whole world is not taking china accountable for showing this authoritarianism. And if you look at the situation of hong kong, its actually a continuation of that closed political environment in Mainland China, where, for the past few years or past decades, the world has been unable to make china accountable for it. But again, if you were first minister lee, youd point to the fact that, for example, the one country, two systems pledge still does apply to hong kong, whether you look at its currency, its issuing of passports, its financial system, its independentjudicial system, which it still has, you can still tick all of those boxes and say that hong kong is still functioning very different from china. The essence of one country, two systems is not currency, its about autonomy, democracy and freedom, and those were the promises made in � 80s and � 90s when there was a draft of basic law and there were discussions after the Tiananmen Massacre and before the handover. Is that what hong kongers really care about most, or do they actually care about the economic vibrancy of hong kong, the stability of hong kong . Hong kong still, relatively speaking, is a good place to do business, where people like to travel to do their tourism. That still remains, and hong kongers care about that. Well, first of all, the hong kong economy is going downhill and thats why a lot of people left, especially those expats. And secondly. Not as many left as you thought would. And, secondly, the most important thing in hong kong is definitely a just and a fair social system, including our political system. Millions of hong kong people are marching down the streets, and you cannot omit the fact that theyve done so much to make their voice heard, just for a better and just political system, and you cannot say that, 0h, because the demands were not met so that they abolish what they wanted. Things dont happen that way. They still have that determination, but its just the environment is so closed and whenever they speak up, they got persecuted. They were thrown to jail for years. So that its seemingly like its not going to be as vocal as before, but those are still the things that matter the most to hong kong people, and the cornerstone of one country, two system. But your message goes further than that. 0ver years, you have flirted with the notion of Self Determination, and its still, it seems, something that you want to pursue. You are part, i believe, of an initiative which over the next few weeks and months is supposed to roll out a form of online parliament in exile, bringing together. Im not part of it. Youre not part of it at all . Yeah, no. So you dont believe in it . Because i wanted to quiz you on whether you believe that some of the stated aims of this parliament in exile, which will be, of course, a virtual institution, whether you believe that they are the right aims, quoting elmer yuen who, again, is a pro democracy activist who is involved in this initiative he says, the aim is to take down the communists and regain freedom for hong kong. Do you share that . Well, we are a very diverse community. People can have their advocacy work as they like as long as we have the idea of having a free and democratic hong kong. These initiatives definitely draw a lot of attention and a lot of voice. For me, if we think about a parliament in exile, we think about government in exile because they are supposed to go hand in hand. And for now, ijust dont think we have the soil for that kind of institution, like, we need to have a legitimate origin, we need to have recognition of different states, international bodies. I think our efficacy work isjust far away from addressing that field. So if there were an effort in coming months to set up this notional Hong Kong Parliament in exile, you would want no part of it . Well, for me, im part of the hong kong community, but i will work on the other fronts other than that, because there are opportunity calls, like if im fully involved in this project which i think, for now, we dont have the maturity and have the soil for that i would lose the opportunity to do other important advocacy work. And what about Self Determination . Is that still something that you want . I think we should not omit the fact that hong kong used to be a colony, whether you think that is a bad thing or that is an acceptable thing, and that is the history that hong kong and beijing government wants hong kong people to forget orjust to omit it. And if we agree that, then people under colonial ruling should have the right to Self Determination. And we saw the whole process of how hong kongs peoples Self Determination was stripped off because of a very unfair conclusion in the united nations. Then we come up to an idea that this is our right. Im not talking about what i want to have after we have the right, but at least we have to agree on the fact that individuals of these colonial ruling, they should have the right to determine their future. Is it a problem for you that the International Community right now, when it considers china and perceived strategic threats from china, it focuses on chinas ambitions, military ambitions in taiwan . Is that a problem for you in hong kong . Its definitely not a problem. Its. Well, very, very important things. All the freedom loving people in hong kong, they dont want to see taiwan being annexed by china and we dont want another war. And i think the best way to stop a war is to stop it before it happens. We need to step up our deterrence and we need to voice our important support to taiwan. And i think that is what i and other activists should do. But to put it bluntly, the possibility of Military Confrontation over taiwan is so dangerous for the world and such an enormous thing to contemplate that it makes the fight for more democratic rights and a respect for one country, two systems in hong kong seem like, if i may say so, relatively small beer. If we look at the predicament of taiwan and hong kong, we see the same origin of threat the authoritarian expansion of the Chinese Communist party. I dont think paying attention to taiwan really makes hong kong look small or look unimportant. Eventually, hong kong is a very important hub and it has a lot of, well, signals about china and countries still Pay Attention to it. And i think as long as we can use any of these examples to remind anyone in the world that there is a Growing Authoritarianism from china and we have to step up to stop them, i think thats a good course. President xi uses nationalism. Nationalism is a very important motivating factor in china right now. The chinese portray you as a puppet in the pocket of the United States and other Hostile Forces who want to see china fail. You play into that, dont you . You spend an awful lot of time in the United States. You go see people like mike pompeo when youre there. Are you in the pocket of interests in the United States . I havent played into that. I think that its my legitimate right to express any signals from hong kong to anyone who wants to listen to it. Most importantly, ive repeatedly urged the Hong Kong Government to give any evidence they have. Do you get money, funding from the United States . I have clearly stated that i dont get any fundings from any government, including the United States and the United Kingdom. Im an independent activist and that gives me the room to do advocacy work that are most favourable to hong kong people. The reason why the Chinese Government wanted to fabricate the whole stories of, like, there are a lot of cia and agents in this Protest Movement is they dont want people to believe that people have the agency, protesters have the agency to ask for a Better Future because they dont want Chinese People to fall into it. Nonetheless, it seems to me, you end up, on some of your missions, your advocacy work, feeling disappointed with what you hear from politicians who want to maintain Trading Links with china. We just saw, in the recent past, president macron of france, Chancellor Scholz of germany, making very high profile trips to beijing, wanting to deepen trading ties, despite everything that weve discussed. How deep is your disappointment . Well, ive criticised a lot of Global Leaders for not being as assertive as they should be, facing the threat of the Chinese Communist party, and that shows i am really independent of their influence and im representing at least a large, significant proportion of hong kong peoples opinion. It may also show that your message isnt cutting through and that, in the end, china holds the cards, not least because of its massive and growing economic power. Well, isnt it actually quite easy to think that my message doesnt cut through when china has so much power and has so much resources . Im not naive. Im not saying that china doesnt have power they are the most powerful authoritarian country in the world but it doesnt mean that our message is not right. It doesnt mean that our efforts are futile. It means that we have to do more. It means that Global Leaders have to put human rights into their diplomacy more, more than ever, and ive been expressing my disappointment to many of them since 2014, when i was an activist Student Leader in the umbrella movement. Indeed you have. I mean, im actually fascinated just to reread a letter you wrote, a Public Letter to viktor 0rban, Prime Minister of hungary, back in 2021, where you said openly, ultimately, it is up to you and those who live in free societies to stop authoritarianism. Well, look at the trends in the world today, not least whats happening in hungary, but you could take many other countries too. Authoritarianism isnt in retreat. You say its polluting the worlds politics. You may be swimming against the tide. Well, obviously, im not a very good swimmer, but im probably a good screamer, that i can definitely speak out loud against these waves of authoritarianism, especially leading by the Chinese Communist party and also russia. Theyve been working so closely, theyve been having all these statements of unlimited collaboration, and we just need more awareness. We need more assertiveness in our ways of dealing with them. More awareness, more assertiveness is one way of putting it. The question is whether you truly believe that whatever assertiveness you bring to the table, you can ever win the struggle you are engaged in. You said not long ago, it may take me decades to return to hong kong. I may no longer look young, i may go back with grey hair, but i definitely will be back. Do you honestly believe that . I honestly believe that. It is a matter of how much drive that we have for now, especially. Regardless of how real that kind of democratic future is, its that we dont have any reasons to give up. Its a painful and turbulent journey, but look at me, im sitting here to do an interview with you. I am really lucky and fortunate. A lot of my fellows who are in hong kong, theyre injails, behind bars for years. They still dont have any verdict. Their crime isjoining a primary election, speaking up against the Chinese Communist party, and when you think about that, i dont have any reason to give up just because of, well, china is the largest and most powerful authoritarian country. And it gives me more motivation to do what im doing because i think doing that, of course, we eventually want to return to a hong kong which is a democratic and free one, but we also have a lot of fellows that are suffering and we need to address that and we want to change that. We have to end there. Nathan law, thank you very much indeed forjoining me again on hardtalk. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Hello. Temperatures across the uk may well be slightly above the average over the next couple of days, but it is only a brief window of warmth, unfortunately, because showers are set to return as we head into the weekend. So lets Take A Look Atjust what is happening. Weve got this area of High Pressure building from the southwest. Yes, this weak warm front topples across the high, so it will continue to bring some Nuisance Cloud as we start the day, particularly across Northern Ireland, west facing coasts of wales and southwest england. So thick enough maybe once again for some misty conditions, a little bit drizzly from time to time. But further north and east, youll continue to see some sunshine and some Warmth Building as we go through the day, so temperatures will respond, up to highs perhaps of 2a celsius mid 70s fahrenheit. Now, warmer still as we move into thursday. Well see any cloud starting to break up. Well have clear skies through the night, and because the air� s coming from the south, it will stay on the mild side. Temperatures mid teens to start the day on thursday. So its a southerly wind at the moment and its going to be tapping into some pretty hot air once again across spain, and that will move its way steadily northwards on thursday. So thursday will be our sunniest and our warmest day of the week. Any cloud that we have first thing should tend to thin and break up in places, there will be plenty of sunshine, the best perhaps for england and wales and the far north of scotland, and the highest temperatures are likely to be across eastern england, 25 26, possibly 27 celsius nudging close to 80 fahrenheit. Unfortunately, it isnt set to last. As this area of low pressure will move in and the cold front, as it bumps into that warmth, could spark some pretty intense outbreaks of rain for a time, moving out of Northern Ireland, pushing its way into scotland and Northern England during the day. It will be fairly light and showery in nature across Southeast England and, once again, thats where were likely to see the best of the warmth still. With the sunshine coming through, we might still see temperatures into the mid 20s thats the mid 70s. Now, as we move out of friday into the start of the weekend, once again low pressure is going to be anchored to the far northwest. Were getting quite familiar to this scenario, arent we . So there will be showers or longer spells of rain. Itll be quite breezy at times. Thats going to push those showers through quite readily. The most frequent showers closest to the centre of the low pressure, so further south and east, hopefully fewer showers, more sunshine and, again, still those temperatures into the low 20s. For the second half of the weekend, the low pressure not really moving very far very fast. It drifts its way steadily eastwards, the isobars open up further south, the winds fall light and, hopefully, showers should be few and further between here. But still, closest to that low, into Northern Ireland, across scotland, there will continue to be plenty of showers through the day. So not quite as warm here, 18 19 celsius. Highest values by sunday afternoon of 22 celsius 72 fahrenheit. Now, as we go into next week, it looks likely that low pressure will drift away and allow brief ridges of highs to build and quieten things down for a time before the next low pressure moves in off the atlantic. So it is going to stay pretty unsettled, but there will be some drier interludes from time to time. So not quite as bad as it has been of late. Hopefully sunny spells, a few scattered showers and at times in the sunshine, we cling on to a little bit more in the way of warmth. Thats it. Take care. And the cornerstone of one country, two system. Live from london, this is bbc news. Banding together to protect the amazon eight countries form a new alliance to limit deforestation. The rapper tory lanez has been sentenced to ten years in prison for shooting and wounding the us hip hop star megan thee stallion. Concerns are raised about the safety of Police Officers in Northern Ireland after a data breach revealed every Staff Members name, role and work location. Hello. Im tadhg enright. The closely watched Amazon Summit in brazil has closed out its first day with a pledge from nations to create a new alliance to fight deforestation in the region. Its the first time in 1a years that leaders of eight amazon countries are meeting, vowing on tuesday to stop the amazon from reaching a point of no return. The lengthy roadmap outlined in the city of belem promotes