And now, in a change of programming, Steven Sacker speaks to the former Prime Minister of pakistan, imran khan, in an interview recorded in lahore, on wednesday. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. How grave is the risk of pakistan spiralling into political and Security Chaos . Terror attacks continue to impose a heavy toll whilst the nation braces for a potentially destabilising election season. And at the heart of the political turbulence, my guest today, former Prime Minister imran khan, currently facing close to 200 charges which threaten his pti partys ability to mount an electoral challenge. Has pakistans populist political star been outmanoeuvred by the generals who once backed him . Imran khan, in lahore, pakistan, welcome to hardtalk. From the outside, mr khan, it looks as though a legal noose is tightening around your neck. Does it feel that way to you . Yes, stephen. Its been like that for a while, ever since i was out of power 1a months, 15 months ago. What was hoped by the establishment which removed me, what they hoped was that the party would just fizzle away. And normally, it happens when youre out of power, youre out of power for quite a while. But instead, what happened . The most unusual thing in this country that the partys popularity kept growing and that in the by elections that took place, out of 37 by elections, my party swept 30 of them and this is despite the establishment backing the government parties. So, since then, this, its, the attempts are being made to knock me out of the game. I had two Assassination Attempts on me. And apart from that, now, i have close to my double century almost 200 cases and the whole attempt is to either imprison me or disqualify me, or both. Yeah, you talk about being knocked out of the game. Isnt the reality, now that there are these pretty much 200 cases against you which include a whole range of charges the corrupt misuse of official gifts is one, contempt of Pakistans Election Commission is another, but then there are others which include, as i understand it, sedition, blasphemy and one case which even alleges your involvement in a murder its becoming so complex and so serious that, frankly, you dont have time for Anything Else . Well, you forgot to mention there are about 60 or 70 terrorism cases against me, so all my time is spent going from one court to another courtroom. I have made, in two months, over 350 Court Appearances and my legal team is busy fending off one case after the other. But the thing is nothing sticks because these are frivolous, bogus cases. And what now they are planning to do is to have Military Courts. And this is right now in the Supreme Court, whether the courts will allow Military Courts or not and the objective of the Military Court is that there i certainly will be sentenced. Mmm. Your contention, i guess, is that youre guilty of absolutely nothing is that it . Sighs. Absolutely nothing. Look, stephen, someone till the age of 70 never had one criminal case against him. In the last few months, how can you have 200 criminal cases . And heres someone who this country knows for 50 years. You know, im not someone who this country doesnt know, notjust as a cricketer, as someone who has done the biggest charitable projects in our history, who people give more money than anyone in our history, so whos trusted who trust with their money, so people dont believe this and as a result, according to the opinion polls, rather than the popularity going down, it isjust going further up. Hmm. Im sure youre familiar with the notion of karma and the phrase what goes around comes around. Would you accept that one problem for you is that the positions you stake out today are very different from the positions youve taken in the past . And when i say that, im thinking, number one, of your enthusiasm for the courts ruling that nawaz sharif, back in the period before 2018, should not be allowed to run again for public office. You, for a couple of years, demanded that he be barred from politics. In the end, he was. You said the courts had every right to bar a senior politician from running for office. The courts may well be about to bar you from running for office in the forthcoming election, so its going to be difficult for you to argue the courts have no right to do that. Theres a word, or two words moral equivalence. Its when you equate two completely unrelated instances and combine them and sort of draw an analogy. Look, nawaz sharif, he, how did he get caught . It was in panama papers, that exposure that took place, where it was discovered that he had four luxury flats in london which he had not declared and were in his daughters name. There was 1. 5 years in court, there was a joint investigating committee which asked him to provide where did he get the money to buy these four flats . When he couldnt, thats when he was disqualified. It cannot be compared with me, where, out of almost 200, there are only two Corruption Cases and both im fighting. And im telling you that both the cases, they will never find anything because there was no corruption. You cant compare him four luxury flats worth millions of dollars in london where he gets convicted, he gets to serve a sentence to compare to what is going on right now. Would you accept that youve made several grave errors in the recent past . Perhaps one of your most serious errors was fomenting an atmosphere after you were ousted from power last year an atmosphere in which you encouraged hostility toward the military. And when you were arrested in may of this year, your supporters immediately took to the streets in violent protest, which included violence directed against military targets, including the house of one senior general. They were your people responding to your rhetoric. Well, stephen, let mejust answer this one by one. Number one, in my 27 years in politics, never have i told anyone ever to be violent. All our protests have been within the constitution peaceful protest, which is allowed when we feel any injustice, it is a right to have a protest, and thats what weve done. We did the longest ever protest of 126 days and not one one act of violence ever took place. They were peaceful protests. We used to protest and go back. So, first, let me make it clear and this is what the courts have discovered. When they tried to accuse us when the government accused us of attacking army buildings, the courts Twojudgements Now have cleared us that none of us were involved in any violence. We believe that there should be independent investigation into just the four just four places where the violence took place. Crosstalk. But hang on. Did you not think for a moment knowing pakistan as you do, the polarised feelings amongst your people, did you not think for a moment it was irresponsible of you in the months running up to may 9th of this year, to be accusing the military of essentially running a puppet government, of launching a coup detat, of taking over pakistan and completely undermining its democracy . Did you not for a moment think that that might lead to trouble . So, stephen, what youre saying is that i should not tell what was the truth . Everyone in pakistan knows what happened. The Defence Minister the current sitting Defence Minister, whos now you know, who was in the opposition he has given a Public Statement that way back in 2020. I mean, we went six months down the line in our government. He said that the then current army chief told him categorically that he wanted to get rid of my government. And had it not been for two years of covid 19, which is why he held back, thats the only reason he didnt remove oui government. Now, this is from the Current Defence minister, so no one in this country is in any doubt that it was the ex army chief who removed my government. In fact, he has bragged. He said he thought imran khan was dangerous for pakistan. Thats why he removed me. So this isjust a fact no one. Crosstalk. Well, i talked about karma yeah, i talked about karma before. The truth is, you rode the tiger of Military Support for their political candidate. You rode that tiger yourself in 2018. You were close to the military. You remained close to the Intelligence Services and the military in your early years in power. And it was only when you fell out with the military that you decided you wanted no Military Meddling in politics. Again, its hypocrisy. One of the Army Spokespeople said, imran khan is the biggest hypocrite. So, stephen, i need to correct you again. My party is the only party that was not created by military dictators. Peoples party ayub khan, the first dictator, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was his minister for eight years before he left his government and then created the party. Nawaz sharif was manufactured by general zia ul haq. He was a businessman. My Party Started from zero. 22 years, i built my party from scratch. And then, if in 2018, the army backed us, then how come, then despite the establishment openly going against us, trying to dismantle us, how come, after we are out of government, we win 30 out of 37 by elections . How come that has hap. . Because the establishment, everyone knows, is standing with the government. So, how can we sweep all the by elections . So, clearly, we did not come into power because of the army. Where youre right, the army did not oppose me in 2018. Thats where youre right. But in 2013, the Military Establishment backed nawaz sharif, brought him into power. Crosstalk. Thats why we did this protest for 126 days, because we wanted we wanted we wanted the audit of the elections because we knew the elections were rigged. Crosstalk. When in � 18 we came into power, we asked them to open the elections because we knew we had won free and fair elections. Isnt the truth, though, that you believed after you lost that vote of confidence in 2022, you believed you could use people power to force the army to come back to you, in essence, and you were wrong . And going back to what happened in may 2023, when your supporters went to the streets, they committed that violence, including against key military infrastructure. You basically crossed a red line a red line that even supporters of your own pti party, even former friends and colleagues in your government say is on you. Its your responsibility. To quote your former Defence MinisterPervez Khattak, he says, all of the political representatives of my new party hold imran khan responsible for the tragedy of may 9th. He said, imran khans anti state agenda has been rejected by the masses and his own partys former leadership. Now, stephen, let me let me answer this question because its very important. What happened on the 9th of may . 0n the 9th may, im sitting in the presence of the islamabad high court. Im on bail of these many cases, so there was no case on me. I get attacked by the commandos not by police, by commandos. There are visuals which have gone all over the world. I was attacked. My people were guards were beaten up and i was abducted from there confirmed by the Supreme Court, unlawful and unconstitutional. So, what did you think the supporters would do . When they saw the army, the commandos picking me up from there, was there not going to be a protest . But remember when i was shot . When i was shot and 12 of my other people were wounded, one dead. Despite that, there was no burning, there was no arson. There were peaceful protests, but they were protests without any arson. So, how come this is the big question when they see me being dragged like, the head of the Biggest Party abducted, there was going to be a reaction. My point is were we involved in the arson . Arson only took place in four buildings. They put 10,000 of our workers injail. Now, stephen, youve got to listen to this, this is very important. This was all pre planned. Police could have picked me up. Why did they need commandos to pick me up and beat everyone up . Because they wanted a reaction. And there was, but the reaction was peaceful, as its always been. I want to stop you, imran khan, because you have made it clear you accept no responsibility for the violence around may 9th. I understand that, but my point, really, was to focus on the fact that since may 9th, the extreme pressure put on your pti party, some of its members, from the most senior to the mostjunior, has led to the implosion of your party. Some of your most senior former lieutenants like fawad chaudhry, Pervez Khattak whom i mentioned jahangir tareen, theyve all left. Some of them have set up new Political Parties. Your party, as it was, frankly no longer exists. If my party doesnt exist, why dont they announce elections . Why did they run away from the elections stipulated by the constitution, announced by the Supreme Court on the 9th of may, and 60 of pakistan was punjab . They ran away from the elections. Now theyre trying to run away from the elections in october. So if my party is finished, they shouldnt be worried. The problem is the partys intact. They have tried everything. They have put 10,000 people injail, including women never done before peaceful protesters, and worse, they have put people through torture. We have faced custodial torture. Its never happened in the history of this country. And under pressure, some people have left, but the vast majority of people are in hiding today in pakistan. All my Senior Leadership which is not arrested, a few of them have defected. The rest are in hiding my workers are in hiding. I am the only one with 1 2 other guys who are not in hiding, but we are more or less house arrested. But thats the point, thats the point hang on, we dont have much time, lets get some brief questions and answers. Fawad chaudhry, who weve had on this show, who was very loyal to you, but now has quit politics, saying he cant work with you any more he said the other day, he said you, imran khan, have to find a way to build bridges to the mainstream politicians. And he even mentioned nawaz sharif, he said the country is on the brink of a terrible crisis, and its incumbent upon you to put your own interests aside and reach out to nawaz sharif and others. Are you prepared to do that . The fact that the country is on the brink of a major disaster is true. We really are heading what i feel are the dark ages because we basically have an undeclared martial law in pakistan. I mean, the country evolved towards a democratic process over the last 20 years and, suddenly, theres no media which is free, and the judiciary, theyre trying to control that, so were heading in the dark ages. But what is the answer . Is the answer to shake hands with people whove been robbing this country for 30 years . I came into politics because the two families had destroyed our country economically. I came in because i wanted to bring the powerful under the rule of law, which is why my party was called Movement Forjustice rule of law. And now, am i supposed to join the same people who are responsible for destroying the rule of law in this country, who are above law, so that i again. What for, to come into power . Id rather not come into power. Id rather stay in the opposition. Whats the point of coming into power if you cant bring justice here . Right, but lets stick with the idea that pakistan faces a catastrophic future if political instability feeds into Security Instability and we see that the suicide bombings, the terror continues particularly aimed at Political Parties right now and also we see a potential economic catastrophe with an imf bailout, which just stopped the country defaulting, but which nonetheless leaves pakistan in a parlous position. Your country cant afford the political chaos that will come if you try to run in the forthcoming election. Itjust cant afford it. Stephen, look, the only solution to pakistan and any sensible person in this country will confirm this the only solution, there is no other solution, free and fair elections. Thats the only way we will get out of this mess. What is happening is that in order to keep me out, they are dismantling our democracy. And what youre seeing in the rise in terrorism, the whole province of kp, pakhtunkhwa, which is on the border of afghanistan, why was there no terrorism when we were in power for 3. 5 years . Why is it suddenly that terrorism is going up . Because they are no longer represented. In pakhtunkhwa, where the terrorism has started, and in balochistan, there has been a Caretaker Government which is not representative of pakistan, doesnt belong to the people, and thats going there for eight months. Its illegal, its unconstitutional. So the answer is free and fair elections. Let the people select their own representatives and then let them sort out the problems of pakistan. We, as a representative government, had brought down terrorism in pakistan. You, right now, are sitting in lahore. Every time you try to leave your home, you have to negotiate all of the armed guards and the security that surrounds you. Pretty much your only journeys right now are to the courthouse. You know that you survived an assassination attempt last november, but youve said you expect another one to come. I believe your own children have told you that you ought to get out of politics for your own safety. Why will you not heed that advice . Because it may be the only way to calm tensions in your country. Stephen, what youre saying is that we should accept slavery and not have freedom. Democracy means freedom. So what youre basically telling me is that in order to accept this fascist government, which is destroying our Civil Liberties by the day. Theyre about to pass a bill just so that you know what we are facing right now they are passing a bill which is called prevention of extreme violence. The Intelligence Agencies can break into anyones house without an arrest warrant. They can pick anyone up. They can try people in Military Courts without access to justice. This is what we are facing now. Unfortunately, the country has been taken over by fascists and they are petrified of elections. The reason why im suffering is because they know that elections we would win hands down. And because of that, theyre not only dismantling our democracy, it means we should accept that we dont have any freedom. How can we accept that . How can anyone accept that . Youve made a series of allegations about this government which, of course, the current pakistani government would absolutely deny but what is clear is that if elections are to be held this year, you have a choice. You either try to run, or you back off because it could send pakistan over the edge. What are you going to do . What will save pakistan are free and fair elections. Stephen, make no mistake about it, because that will give it political stability, a government backed by a public mandate. If it comes in for five years, will give us political stability and that will then give us economic stability. At the moment, there is no political stability and the economy has just tanked. And this terrorism is an offshoot. When theres no representation of people, when they are being ruled by a centre which has no idea how to deal with things as things deteriorate, so, look, what youre basically saying is that i should just leave these guys alone and, you know, look after myself. So its easy for me. All i have to say is that, look, im going for a holiday to london to see my boys, and life is easy for me. But look, i mean, iam the first generation of pakistanis which grew in an independent country. My parents grew up in colonial india. So we value our freedom. Imran khan, we have to end there. Thanks very much for joining me on hardtalk. Todays somewhat calmer and brighter in most places because the area of low pressure which billed yesterdays wind and rain is cleaving eastwards. Still close enough to stem parts have been quite a brisk breeze. Further west, spells of sunshine. A scattering of showers, some of which will be on the heavy side to the west of the day particularly parts of Northern England and scotland but i could be the odd flash of lightning, the odd rumble of thunder. May be getting to 20 degrees on the south coast of england. 16 19 and as we had two this evening and tonight, most of the showers will fade we will keep some pushing into parts of scotland, north england and north wales. A relatively cool night, down to eight or nine. Some spots could get a little bit chillier than that. Tomorrow, though, getting off to a decent start with this ridge of High Pressure however there is a Frontal System pushing in from the west. Most places in some spells of sunshine through tomorrow. There will be some showers. Not as many as we had today. And then we will see more of this cloud rolling in. Parts of northern ireland. Spots of drizzle and mist landmark developing here later. Temperature 17 21. A slightly warmer day for many. Through monday monday night this Frontal System eases its way in across their southern half of the country. Forwales, across their southern half of the country. For wales, the midlands, expect a lot of cloud. Some mist untilfile. Could start expect a lot of cloud. Some mist until file. Could start to turn maki around some coasts. Bits and pieces of rain and drizzle. Further north, we should see some spells of sunshine. Just the odd vogue shower. This area of High Pressure is starting to build and that will allow us to tap into some warmer air from the south. Thursday, particularly is set to be a widely one day. Temperature is getting into the mid 20s. It could be that some places in the south get a 27 or 28 degrees but it looks like it wont last all that long. Turning unsettled again through friday and into the weekend. Good afternoon. People who are wrongly convicted will no longer have their Prison Living Costs taken out of any compensation they may receive. Reports coming in from southern pakistan, where 19 people have died in a Train Accident and more than a0 are injured. President zelensky says a russian Guided Missile has hit a Blood Transfusion Centre in North Eastern ukraine, describing the attack as a war crime. Decision time for niger, as a deadline given by west African Leaders for the military to reinstate the countrys ousted president is due to expire in the coming hours. And at the womens world cup, the two time defending champions, the usa, are knocked out of the tournament by sweden, after a match decided in a tense penalty shootout. Hello, im lukwesa burak