at ten o'clock, we'll have a full round—up of the day's news. first, social media, anti—social media, breaking news, fake news — this is the programme about a revolution in media with amol rajan, the bbc�*s media editor. hello. what kind of health is british investigative journalism actually in? better than you might think, perhaps because a lot of it is happening away from the national titles and being conducted by localjournalists, for instance, in manchester. or perhaps it's because a lot of it's being done by specialists who are willing to work for a variety of titles. or maybe because a pandemic being a complex and hopefully once—in—a—century event lends itself to scandal, lea ks and whistle—blows. today, we're going to go inside the mechanics of investigative reporting to give you the nuts, the bolts, the fear, the loathing and the legal letters of being a proper investigative hack. let me introduce you to our guests. george arbuthnott is a deputy editor of the sunday times�*s insight team, jennifer williams is politics and investigations editor for the manchester evening news and rachel oldroyd is managing editor and ceo of the bureau of investigationjournalism. it's actually the bureau of investigativejournalism, isn't it, rachel? it is. george, we're going to start with you. over the past year, you've been writing pieces on the sunday times over britain's handling of the pandemic, and your book on this is called failures of state. it's out this week. it features whistle—blowers from within the government and the nhs. how have you gone about cultivating sources during a pandemic? cos presumably, you can't sneak off for a quiet coffee when we're all on zoom, as we are right now. that's right, but in some ways, it's actually been easier because the key is to build up sources within the government and the nhs, and normally, i'm thinking within the government, that if they've got their bosses overseeing them in the office, it's very hard to get a call in to them and have an open conversation cos everyone�*s been at home. it's actually been easier for them to speak freely. what about the pub? i thought sunday times hacks back in the day used to cultivate them in the pub, usually the red line in westminster, wasn't it? you're right, it does often help to meet people in person to build up trust. but actually, just the ability to ring someone up and have a frank conversation with them without them being supervised, it has certainly made a big difference in that respect. jennifer williams from the manchester evening news, i see you're nodding through what george says. yeah, iwas, while yeah, i was, while george was building — yeah, i was, while george was building those contacts, i suppose i was in _ building those contacts, i suppose i was in greater manchester. i was a health_ was in greater manchester. i was a health journalist before this, was in greater manchester. i was a healthjournalist before this, but my contact was in the public health system, _ my contact was in the public health system, so — my contact was in the public health system, so i went through a similar process _ system, so i went through a similar process i_ system, so i went through a similar process. i actually found twitter to be very— process. i actually found twitter to be very useful in that respect in terms _ be very useful in that respect in terms of— be very useful in that respect in terms ofjust having chats with people — terms ofjust having chats with people over direct messages. i think sometimes — people over direct messages. i think sometimes people get worried about whether— sometimes people get worried about whether their messages... and they find social— whether their messages... and they find social media direct messaging feels more comfortable, and i've noticed _ feels more comfortable, and i've noticed that with quite a few people over the _ noticed that with quite a few people over the past year. isn�*t noticed that with quite a few people over the past year.— over the past year. isn't that true for sources? _ over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if _ over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if you _ over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if you are _ over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if you are in - over the past year. isn't that true for sources? if you are in touch . for sources? if you are in touch with people through the direct message on twitter, it's a safer form of communication? i message on twitter, it's a safer form of communication?- form of communication? i don't think... form of communication? i don't think- -- i _ form of communication? i don't think... ithink— form of communication? i don't think... | think it's _ form of communication? i don't think... i think it's more - form of communication? i don't think... i think it's more of - form of communication? i don't think... i think it's more of a i think... i think it's more of a psychological thing. people sometimes feel more comfortable having _ sometimes feel more comfortable having this conversation that way than doing it over text or doing it in another— than doing it over text or doing it in another way, and than doing it over text or doing it in anotherway, and i've than doing it over text or doing it in another way, and i've noticed it a tot— in another way, and i've noticed it a lot during — in another way, and i've noticed it a lot during the pandemic. the other thing _ a lot during the pandemic. the other thing is _ a lot during the pandemic. the other thing is income and what george was saying _ thing is income and what george was saying. people are sat in front of their— saying. people are sat in front of their laptops and if you just drop them _ their laptops and if you just drop them a _ their laptops and if you just drop them a message and say, what do you reckoh_ them a message and say, what do you reckon about _ them a message and say, what do you reckon about this? they say... no offence _ reckon about this? they say... no offence to— reckon about this? they say... no offence to my contacts. may reckon about this? they say. .. no offence to my contacts.— reckon about this? they say... no offence to my contacts. may be bored --eole are offence to my contacts. may be bored peeple are better— offence to my contacts. may be bored people are better sources _ offence to my contacts. may be bored people are better sources because - people are better sources because theyjust really people are better sources because they just really want to tell people things. you're all nodding! rachel from the bureau, you've had your own stories, but we're also looking at amazon, walmart, facebook and more. how easy has been to interest readers be beyond the pandemic? the news over the last 18 months has been all virus. ah, news over the last 18 months has been all virus.— been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. been all virus. a lot of trumpet tom we've _ been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had _ been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had a _ been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had a year - been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had a year of - been all virus. a lot of trumpet too. we've had a year ofjust i too. we've had a year ofjust intentional— too. we've had a year ofjust intentional use _ too. we've had a year ofjust intentional use of— too. we've had a year ofjust intentional use of stories - too. we've had a year ofjust intentional use of stories ——| too. we've had a year ofjustl intentional use of stories —— a too. we've had a year ofjust- intentional use of stories —— a lot of trumpet — intentional use of stories —— a lot oftrumpet~ it— intentional use of stories —— a lot of trumpet. it has _ intentional use of stories —— a lot of trumpet. it has been - intentional use of stories —— a lot of trumpet. it has been difficult i intentional use of stories —— a lotl of trumpet. it has been difficult to think— of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside _ of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside of— of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside of the _ of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside of the virus - of trumpet. it has been difficult to think outside of the virus and - of trumpet. it has been difficult to| think outside of the virus and what else is— think outside of the virus and what else is important. _ think outside of the virus and what else is important. there _ think outside of the virus and what else is important. there are - think outside of the virus and what else is important. there are so - think outside of the virus and what . else is important. there are so many other— else is important. there are so many other important _ else is important. there are so many other important issues _ else is important. there are so many other important issues and _ else is important. there are so many other important issues and i- else is important. there are so many other important issues and i think. other important issues and i think going _ other important issues and i think going back— other important issues and i think going back to— other important issues and i think going back to sources, _ other important issues and i think going back to sources, one - other important issues and i think going back to sources, one of- other important issues and i think going back to sources, one of the| going back to sources, one of the key things— going back to sources, one of the key things that _ going back to sources, one of the key things that gets _ going back to sources, one of the key things that gets people - going back to sources, one of the. key things that gets people talking is a iot— key things that gets people talking is a lot of— key things that gets people talking is a lot of anger— key things that gets people talking is a lot of anger at _ key things that gets people talking is a lot of anger at the _ key things that gets people talking is a lot of anger at the moment, i key things that gets people talking| is a lot of anger at the moment, so people _ is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are — is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are really _ is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are really prepared - is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are really prepared to - is a lot of anger at the moment, so people are really prepared to talk i people are really prepared to talk about _ people are really prepared to talk about things _ people are really prepared to talk about things. one _ people are really prepared to talk about things. one of _ people are really prepared to talk about things. one of the - people are really prepared to talk about things. one of the key - people are really prepared to talk i about things. one of the key things that we've — about things. one of the key things that we've found _ about things. one of the key things that we've found is _ about things. one of the key things that we've found is that _ about things. one of the key things that we've found is that it - about things. one of the key things that we've found is that it is - about things. one of the key things that we've found is that it is very i that we've found is that it is very difficult — that we've found is that it is very difficult in — that we've found is that it is very difficult in the — that we've found is that it is very difficult in the space _ that we've found is that it is very difficult in the space to - that we've found is that it is very difficult in the space to build - that we've found is that it is very difficult in the space to build upl difficult in the space to build up trust. _ difficult in the space to build up trust. so — difficult in the space to build up trust. so to— difficult in the space to build up trust, so to find _ difficult in the space to build up trust, so to find these - difficult in the space to build up trust, so to find these stories . difficult in the space to build up l trust, so to find these stories you don't _ trust, so to find these stories you don't know— trust, so to find these stories you don't know are _ trust, so to find these stories you don't know are out _ trust, so to find these stories you don't know are out there. - trust, so to find these stories you don't know are out there. stories| don't know are out there. stories about— don't know are out there. stories about the — don't know are out there. stories about the pandemic, _ don't know are out there. stories about the pandemic, stories - don't know are out there. stories. about the pandemic, stories about trump's _ about the pandemic, stories about trump's leadership. _ about the pandemic, stories about trump's leadership. they've - about the pandemic, stories about trump's leadership. they've beenl trump's leadership. they've been easy but— trump's leadership. they've been easy but the — trump's leadership. they've been easy but the stories _ trump's leadership. they've been easy but the stories you - trump's leadership. they've been easy but the stories you just - trump's leadership. they've been| easy but the stories you just don't know— easy but the stories you just don't know exist. — easy but the stories you just don't know exist, those _ easy but the stories you just don't know exist, those are _ easy but the stories you just don't know exist, those are the - easy but the stories you just don't know exist, those are the tricky. know exist, those are the tricky ones _ know exist, those are the tricky ones in — know exist, those are the tricky ones in a — know exist, those are the tricky ones in a world _ know exist, those are the tricky ones in a world where - know exist, those are the tricky ones in a world where we're - know exist, those are the tricky ones in a world where we're all| know exist, those are the tricky. ones in a world where we're all in remote _ ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom _ ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom land _ ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom land a. _ ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom land a. [f— ones in a world where we're all in remote zoom land a.— remote zoom land a. if you don't know, remote zoom land a. if you don't know. you _ remote zoom land a. if you don't know. you don't _ remote zoom land a. if you don't know, you don't know. _ remote zoom land a. if you don't know, you don't know. if- remote zoom land a. if you don't know, you don't know. if we're . know, you don't know. if we're talking about investigative journalism, one of the most impressive still not respected artist is the washington post. the last nine years, is editorjust retired. i sat down with them. it's another bonus interview for the mucous show —— at the media show. it talks about the surprises that the washington post and he looks at his time at the boston globe. i'm going to play you a little bit of the interview now because i also asked him about how the washington post funds their failures, their world fan and this investigation. —— world famous. investigativejournalism is famous. investigative journalism is expensive. famous. investigativejournalism is expensive. the post is now an unfortunate position of having a rich owner name tojeff bezos. if rich owner name to jeff bezos. if jeff pazo stuff i thought we would have been on the same deadline as previously. we would have had fewer resources, staff all of that. i don't think we would have been as powerful as we became because we achieved commercial status, we were able to achieve stability, reinvest our earnings because of... so i think it's made a tremendous difference. think it's made a tremendous difference-— think it's made a tremendous difference. ~ . , ' difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit _ difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit down _ difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit down and _ difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit down and discuss i bezos first sit down and discuss this? ~ bezos first sit down and discuss this? . ., bezos first sit down and discuss this? ~ ., ., . this? we sat down of the executive team of the — this? we sat down of the executive team of the post. _ this? we sat down of the executive team of the post. he _ this? we sat down of the executive team of the post. he made - this? we sat down of the executive team of the post. he made clear i this? we sat down of the executive i team of the post. he made clear from team of the post. he made clearfrom the beginning he thought that strategy of being regional may have been the right strategy. it made a lot of money over the years, but it wasn't the right strategy. because we were taking everything the internet had to offer, and... but we weren't taking what he called the gift of the internet. he explained quite clearly that the gift was worldwide distribution at no additional cost because of the internet. we don't have to deliver papers everywhere, and he said we have the opportunity to be national and international. because you don't incur additional cost. you're in an ideal position because you're based in the nation's capital, because we have the name the washington post, which is a good name for going national international, and we had a heritage that was well defined in the public�*s mind. shining a light and dark corners and holding up and the accountability. i and dark corners and holding up and the accountability.— the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits _ the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits with _ the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits with the - the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits with the way i the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits with the way you handled the relationship, but i wonder if you can reflect on whether it's sometimes an uncontrolled place forjournalists it's sometimes an uncontrolled place for journalists to it's sometimes an uncontrolled place forjournalists to be, being ultimately owned by somebody who has an incentive and seeing their competitors �*s. but an incentive and seeing their competitors 's._ an incentive and seeing their competitors 's. but he hasn't interfered — competitors 's. but he hasn't interfered in _ competitors 's. but he hasn't interfered in our— competitors 's. but he hasn't interfered in ourjournalism l competitors 's. but he hasn't| interfered in ourjournalism at competitors 's. but he hasn't i interfered in ourjournalism at all and i'm gratefulfor that. i wouldn't want to be there if he had interfered. he thinks the paper should have its independence, it should have its independence, it should do itsjob with integrity. not all the stories are favourable and he doesn't command, he doesn't criticise us, he never suppressed a story, he doesn't suggest any stories. and his competitors know we cover them fairly as well. we have full access to his competitors, regardless of the field. whether it's in retailing or i cloud computing or space, commercial space. they know we cover them independently, otherwise they wouldn't talk to us, but they do. that was the outgoing editor of the washington post and you can hear that on the bbc sounds apt. by the way, you may have heard about the extended interview for lot —— from last week. do check out on the podcast. let's pick up on some things mentioned there. marty talked about having the pockets of a billionaire to fund pieces but don't like digging into the trump administration. the huffington post, which wasn't owned by both feed, is hunting down its —— shutting down its news operation. how does it fund its news operation. how does it fund its work? i its news operation. how does it fund its work? ~ . its news operation. how does it fund its work? ~' , ., its work? i think the first thing to sa is the its work? i think the first thing to say is the stuff _ its work? i think the first thing to say is the stuff is _ its work? i think the first thing to say is the stuff is expensive. it i say is the stuff is expensive. it takes — say is the stuff is expensive. it takes time, _ say is the stuff is expensive. it takes time, it _ say is the stuff is expensive. it takes time, it takes _ say is the stuff is expensive. it takes time, it takes resource, | say is the stuff is expensive. it i takes time, it takes resource, it's risky~ _ takes time, it takes resource, it's risky~ it's — takes time, it takes resource, it's risky~ it's a — takes time, it takes resource, it's risky. it's a story— takes time, it takes resource, it's risky. it's a story that _ takes time, it takes resource, it's risky. it's a story that is - takes time, it takes resource, it's risky. it's a story that is in - takes time, it takes resource, it's risky. it's a story that is in the i risky. it's a story that is in the public— risky. it's a story that is in the public interest. _ risky. it's a story that is in the public interest. it's _ risky. it's a story that is in the public interest. it's not - public interest. it's not necessarily— public interest. it's not necessarily of- public interest. it's not necessarily of interest i public interest. it's not i necessarily of interest to public interest. it's not - necessarily of interest to the public, — necessarily of interest to the public, so _ necessarily of interest to the public, so it— necessarily of interest to the public, so it doesn't- necessarily of interest to the i public, so it doesn't necessarily... so, public, so it doesn't necessarily... so. yes, _ public, so it doesn't necessarily... so. yes, deep— public, so it doesn't necessarily... so, yes, deep pockets— public, so it doesn't necessarily... so, yes, deep pockets are - public, so it doesn't necessarily... i so, yes, deep pockets are definitely needed _ so, yes, deep pockets are definitely needed and — so, yes, deep pockets are definitely needed and we _ so, yes, deep pockets are definitely needed and we are _ so, yes, deep pockets are definitely needed and we are seeing _ so, yes, deep pockets are definitely needed and we are seeing differentl needed and we are seeing different models _ needed and we are seeing different models of— needed and we are seeing different models ofjournalism _ needed and we are seeing different models ofjournalism of _ needed and we are seeing different models ofjournalism of which i needed and we are seeing different models ofjournalism of which the i models ofjournalism of which the bureau _ models ofjournalism of which the bureau is — models ofjournalism of which the bureau is one _ models ofjournalism of which the bureau is one. our— models ofjournalism of which the bureau is one. ourjournalism i models ofjournalism of which the bureau is one. ourjournalism is i bureau is one. ourjournalism is publicly— bureau is one. ourjournalism is publicly funded, _ bureau is one. ourjournalism is publicly funded, so _ bureau is one. ourjournalism is publicly funded, so we - bureau is one. ourjournalism is publicly funded, so we aren't i publicly funded, so we aren't not—for—profit. _ publicly funded, so we aren't not—for—profit. we _ publicly funded, so we aren't not—for—profit. we get- publicly funded, so we aren't| not—for—profit. we get grants publicly funded, so we aren't - not—for—profit. we get grants from foundations — not—for—profit. we get grants from foundations -- _ not—for—profit. we get grants from foundations —— we _ not—for—profit. we get grants from foundations —— we are _ foundations —— we are not—for—profit. - foundations —— we are not—for—profit. we i foundations —— we are| not—for—profit. we get foundations —— we are - not—for—profit. we get money foundations —— we are _ not—for—profit. we get money from individual— not—for—profit. we get money from individual donations. _ not-for-profit. we get money from individual donations.— individual donations. george, how has the sunday — individual donations. george, how has the sunday times's _ individual donations. george, how has the sunday times's team i individual donations. george, how. has the sunday times's team found it? spikes and contributions, is that true of you guys as well? honestly, the basis, for that is we rely on people believing our journalism is worth paying for. certainly believe that the readers want to pay for big investigations. certainly when we get our first coronavirus story about how boris johnson missed the first wave, i think that got more than a thousand actual scripts of options, which would pay for our team —— actual subscription. would pay for our team -- actual subscription-— subscription. that's fascinating. you publish _ subscription. that's fascinating. you publish that _ subscription. that's fascinating. you publish that story - subscription. that's fascinating. you publish that story on i subscription. that's fascinating. | you publish that story on sunday subscription. that's fascinating. i you publish that story on sunday and then how do you get the department... how do you know those thousand were people who like that story? thousand were people who like that sto ? ., , . . ~' thousand were people who like that sto ? . ., story? people clicked on the story, --eole story? people clicked on the story, people couldn't _ story? people clicked on the story, people couldn't read _ story? people clicked on the story, people couldn't read it _ story? people clicked on the story, people couldn't read it because i story? people clicked on the story, | people couldn't read it because they try to click on the story and they had subscribed on the story and then they can read it, so you can see directly where those clicks come from. . . directly where those clicks come from. . , , directly where those clicks come from. . . . , directly where those clicks come from. . , , , ., from. that must be very encouraging for ou. from. that must be very encouraging foryou- must— from. that must be very encouraging for you- must be _ from. that must be very encouraging for you. must be nice _ from. that must be very encouraging for you. must be nice to _ from. that must be very encouraging for you. must be nice to have - from. that must be very encouraging for you. must be nice to have a i for you. must be nice to have a direct relationship with the reader. it was quite extraordinary. in terms of my time on fleet street. i think it had 1.5 million views, which is the most the times i've had in its history. the most the times i've had in its histo . ~ ., ~ the most the times i've had in its histo . ~ ., . ., the most the times i've had in its histo .~ ., . ., the most the times i've had in its histo . ., ., ., history. wow. will not come onto the nuts and bolts. _ history. wow. will not come onto the nuts and bolts. i— history. wow. will not come onto the nuts and bolts. i imagine _ history. wow. will not come onto the nuts and bolts. i imagine you - history. wow. will not come onto the nuts and bolts. i imagine you got i nuts and bolts. i imagine you got some pushback. jennifer, you write for the manchester news. how do they cover the cost of an investigation? your stories are not behind a payroll. ! your stories are not behind a -a roll. ~' your stories are not behind a -a roll. .. , your stories are not behind a -a roll. ~' , .,, , your stories are not behind a -a roll. ~' , , ., payroll. ithink... so, my 'ob is a h brid payroll. ithink... so, my 'ob is a hybrid job. i payroll. ithink... so, my 'ob is a hybrid job, really. ii payroll. ithink... so, my 'ob is a hybrid job, really. i stilli payroll. ithink... so, myjob is a hybrid job, really. i still write i hybridjob, really. istill write new— hybridjob, really. istill write new stories in between working in the background on investigations, and that — the background on investigations, and that... it works for me because it means _ and that... it works for me because it means i _ and that... it works for me because it means i can— and that... it works for me because it means i can keep a hand in and keep— it means i can keep a hand in and keepan— it means i can keep a hand in and keepan eye— it means i can keep a hand in and keep an eye on what's going on. so i'm keep an eye on what's going on. so im not— keep an eye on what's going on. so i'm not necessarily taking two months — i'm not necessarily taking two months out to work on an investigation. it's not as intensive as that _ investigation. it's not as intensive as that. however, i think there's a slight _ as that. however, i think there's a slight misconception that the rate ofjournalism doesn't get an audience _ ofjournalism doesn't get an audience online. i think in the early— audience online. i think in the early days— audience online. i think in the early days of owing digital... over time, _ early days of owing digital... over time, we've — early days of owing digital... over time, we've learned that's not necessarily the case. one of the things— necessarily the case. one of the things we — necessarily the case. one of the things we tried to do over the last five years— things we tried to do over the last five years or so is to play around with _ five years or so is to play around with how — five years or so is to play around with how we exert those stories, how we tell— with how we exert those stories, how we tell the _ with how we exert those stories, how we tell the stories, how we underline them, how we tell them on social— underline them, how we tell them on social media. the importance of pictures— social media. the importance of pictures and good quality pictures online _ pictures and good quality pictures online is— pictures and good quality pictures online isjust as important pictures and good quality pictures online is just as important as pictures and good quality pictures online isjust as important as in print _ online isjust as important as in print we — online isjust as important as in print. we found out that audience is there _ print. we found out that audience is there for— print. we found out that audience is there for that context. don't get me wrong, _ there for that context. don't get me wrong, there's really high—volume content, _ wrong, there's really high—volume content, that's not going to be my stuff _ content, that's not going to be my stuff. that's not to say there's only— stuff. that's not to say there's only one _ stuff. that's not to say there's only one-— stuff. that's not to say there's only one. no. there's a higher volume of _ only one. firm there's a higher volume of traffic in and of itself. it volume of traffic in and of itself. it does _ volume of traffic in and of itself. it does actually get read and i think— it does actually get read and i think that's an important point because — think that's an important point because there is an assumption that it doesn't— because there is an assumption that it doesn't get read in mine —— online, — it doesn't get read in mine —— online, and _ it doesn't get read in mine —— online, and it does. i it doesn't get read in mine -- online, and it does.— it doesn't get read in mine -- online, and it does. i don't want to miss the daily _ online, and it does. i don't want to miss the daily telegraph, - online, and it does. i don't want to miss the daily telegraph, but i online, and it does. i don't want to | miss the daily telegraph, but there was a story suggesting there were some moves within the data paying journalist... it was a much more complex thing but as a principal, do you... what do you think of the idea ofjournalists being paid by amount ofjournalists being paid by amount of people reading the story? i of journalists being paid by amount of people reading the story? i don't feel comfortable _ of people reading the story? i don't feel comfortable with _ of people reading the story? i don't feel comfortable with it. _ of people reading the story? i don't feel comfortable with it. i _ of people reading the story? i don't feel comfortable with it. i think i feel comfortable with it. i think there's— feel comfortable with it. i think there's an _ feel comfortable with it. i think there's an equally a librium there. when _ there's an equally a librium there. when you — there's an equally a librium there. when you pick up a print newspaper, people _ when you pick up a print newspaper, people picked up newspapers for a mixture _ people picked up newspapers for a mixture of— people picked up newspapers for a mixture of different things. they wanted — mixture of different things. they wanted sports coverage, etc. and it's part _ wanted sports coverage, etc. and it's part of— wanted sports coverage, etc. and it's part of the wider offer that you're — it's part of the wider offer that you're giving to your audience. if you're giving to your audience. if you say— you're giving to your audience. if you say actually, only this part works. — you say actually, only this part works, they think you're doing a disservice — works, they think you're doing a disservice to people.— works, they think you're doing a disservice to people. because people like that... let's — disservice to people. because people like that... let's get _ disservice to people. because people like that... let's get into _ disservice to people. because people like that... let's get into some i disservice to people. because people like that... let's get into some of i like that... let's get into some of the stories. george, i want to go through some of the nitty—gritty. you've written that government advisers drop a covid—19 triage school that denied critical care to most people over 75. you quoted someone saying it looked really nancy like to me. i'm glad you're grimacing, it caused a huge row. how many sources did you need to run a claim like that? latte many sources did you need to run a claim like that?— many sources did you need to run a claim like that? we have documentary evidence from — claim like that? we have documentary evidence from the _ claim like that? we have documentary evidence from the government - evidence from the government committee that drew it up. we found the actual document online and we went to several members of that committee. i think there were at least five or six of them. and they confirmed that that was indeed the document that had been discussed, and then we spoke to numerous doctors and hospitals who confirmed they'd received the document and that it and indeed been used within hospitals to exclude elderly people, people with capabilities and people who are frail from receiving intensive care.— who are frail from receiving intensive care. ~ . . ,, intensive care. 0k. what feedback did ou intensive care. 0k. what feedback did you get _ intensive care. 0k. what feedback did you get and — intensive care. 0k. what feedback did you get and from _ intensive care. 0k. what feedback did you get and from whom? i intensive care. 0k. what feedback did you get and from whom? we l intensive care. 0k. what feedback i did you get and from whom? we got a hue did you get and from whom? we got a huge pushback — did you get and from whom? we got a huge pushback from _ did you get and from whom? we got a huge pushback from the _ did you get and from whom? we got a huge pushback from the nhs - did you get and from whom? we got a huge pushback from the nhs press i huge pushback from the nhs press office. ~ ., ., huge pushback from the nhs press office-_ who - huge pushback from the nhs press office._ who said i office. who said what? who said eve bod office. who said what? who said everybody receive _ office. who said what? who said everybody receive the _ office. who said what? who said everybody receive the care i office. who said what? who said everybody receive the care they| everybody receive the care they needed and the nhs had not been overwhelmed. needed and the nhs had not been overwhelmed-— needed and the nhs had not been overwhelmed. right. for the people who aren't in — overwhelmed. right. for the people who aren't in journalism, _ overwhelmed. right. for the people who aren't in journalism, you - overwhelmed. right. for the people who aren't in journalism, you say i overwhelmed. right. for the people who aren't in journalism, you say x, | who aren't in journalism, you say x, nhs is not true. what's next? latte nhs is not true. what's next? we look back nhs is not true. what's next? - look back at what we got and compare it with documentation, the testimony from doctors on the ground and the actual wards. and then we compare it to their statement, and it was clear that we did not believe that what the nhs office was saying was true in any sense. but we obviously ran our evidence and carried their comments, now our readers decide who they believe. comments, now our readers decide who they believe-— they believe. after the story was published. _ they believe. after the story was published. did — they believe. after the story was published, did the _ they believe. after the story was published, did the nhs - they believe. after the story was published, did the nhs came i they believe. after the story was l published, did the nhs came back they believe. after the story was i published, did the nhs came back to you again and say we're going to change our relationship with you? know. i think... change our relationship with you? know. ithink... i change our relationship with you? know. i think... i say tensions, there are certainly tensions. we have a very tense exchange. soured relations. the freedom of information, the bureau announced a big victory today. you won your legal challenge. you called this a victory for investigative journalism. can you take us through this briefly?— this briefly? sure, we have been deafint this briefly? sure, we have been dealing with _ this briefly? sure, we have been dealing with finances _ this briefly? sure, we have been dealing with finances for - this briefly? sure, we have been dealing with finances for over i this briefly? sure, we have been| dealing with finances for over two years. dealing with finances for over two ears. ., . , dealing with finances for over two ears, ., . , ., , dealing with finances for over two ears. ., . ,.,, ., dealing with finances for over two ears. ., ., ., , dealing with finances for over two ears. ., . , ., , ., years. councils as a result have been trying _ years. councils as a result have been trying to _ years. councils as a result have been trying to find _ years. councils as a result have been trying to find other - years. councils as a result have j been trying to find other means years. councils as a result have i been trying to find other means of increasing — been trying to find other means of increasing their— been trying to find other means of increasing their funds. _ been trying to find other means of increasing their funds. one - been trying to find other means of increasing their funds. one thing i increasing their funds. one thing many— increasing their funds. one thing many councils _ increasing their funds. one thing many councils have _ increasing their funds. one thing many councils have done - increasing their funds. one thing many councils have done is i increasing their funds. one thingl many councils have done is invest increasing their funds. one thing i many councils have done is invest in national— many councils have done is invest in national companies, _ many councils have done is invest in national companies, retail— many councils have done is invest in national companies, retail spaces, i many councils have done is invest in national companies, retail spaces,,| national companies, retail spaces, , and in _ national companies, retail spaces, , and in digging— national companies, retail spaces, , and in digging into— national companies, retail spaces,, and in digging into that— national companies, retail spaces,, and in digging into that area, - national companies, retail spaces,, and in digging into that area, we i and in digging into that area, we discovered — and in digging into that area, we discovered a _ and in digging into that area, we discovered a very— and in digging into that area, we discovered a very odd _ and in digging into that area, we discovered a very odd things i and in digging into that area, we i discovered a very odd things seem and in digging into that area, we - discovered a very odd things seem to be happening — discovered a very odd things seem to be happening~150 _ discovered a very odd things seem to be happening. 150 councils _ discovered a very odd things seem to be happening. 150 councils were - be happening. 150 councils were lending — be happening. 150 councils were lending money— be happening. 150 councils were lending money to _ be happening. 150 councils were lending money to thurrock, - be happening. 150 councils were lending money to thurrock, a i be happening. 150 councils were i lending money to thurrock, a small counsel— lending money to thurrock, a small counsel in— lending money to thurrock, a small counsel in essex _ lending money to thurrock, a small counsel in essex which _ lending money to thurrock, a small counsel in essex which has - lending money to thurrock, a small counsel in essex which has a - lending money to thurrock, a small counsel in essex which has a fairly. counsel in essex which has a fairly small— counsel in essex which has a fairly small budget _ counsel in essex which has a fairly small budget each _ counsel in essex which has a fairly small budget each year. _ counsel in essex which has a fairly small budget each year. we - counsel in essex which has a fairly small budget each year. we were i small budget each year. we were quite _ small budget each year. we were quite curious. _ small budget each year. we were quite curious, we _ small budget each year. we were quite curious, we wanted - small budget each year. we were quite curious, we wanted to - small budget each year. we were i quite curious, we wanted to know small budget each year. we were - quite curious, we wanted to know why they were _ quite curious, we wanted to know why they were borrowing _ quite curious, we wanted to know why they were borrowing so _ quite curious, we wanted to know why they were borrowing so much- quite curious, we wanted to know why they were borrowing so much money. | they were borrowing so much money. we clocked _ they were borrowing so much money. we clocked up — they were borrowing so much money. we clocked up over— they were borrowing so much money. we clocked up over £800 _ they were borrowing so much money. we clocked up over £800 million. - they were borrowing so much money. i we clocked up over £800 million. why they were _ we clocked up over £800 million. why they were borrowing _ we clocked up over £800 million. why they were borrowing so _ we clocked up over £800 million. why they were borrowing so much- we clocked up over £800 million. why they were borrowing so much money. they were borrowing so much money from other— they were borrowing so much money from other councils. _ they were borrowing so much money from other councils. and _ they were borrowing so much money from other councils. and we - they were borrowing so much money from other councils. and we read - from other councils. and we read through— from other councils. and we read through guite _ from other councils. and we read through quite a _ from other councils. and we read through quite a lot _ from other councils. and we read through quite a lot of— from other councils. and we read through quite a lot of the - from other councils. and we read through quite a lot of the council| through quite a lot of the council minutes, — through quite a lot of the council minutes, we _ through quite a lot of the council minutes, we spoke _ through quite a lot of the council minutes, we spoke to _ through quite a lot of the council. minutes, we spoke to counsellors, and we _ minutes, we spoke to counsellors, and we couldn't_ minutes, we spoke to counsellors, and we couldn't really— minutes, we spoke to counsellors, and we couldn't really work- minutes, we spoke to counsellors, and we couldn't really work out - minutes, we spoke to counsellors, i and we couldn't really work out what the problem — and we couldn't really work out what the problem was _ and we couldn't really work out what the problem was. and _ and we couldn't really work out what the problem was. and then- and we couldn't really work out what the problem was. and then we - and we couldn't really work out what l the problem was. and then we started to f0i _ the problem was. and then we started to f0i the _ the problem was. and then we started to f0i the other— the problem was. and then we started to foi the other councils _ the problem was. and then we started to foi the other councils who - the problem was. and then we started to foi the other councils who lent - to foi the other councils who lent the money— to foi the other councils who lent the money to— to foi the other councils who lent the money to find _ to foi the other councils who lent the money to find out _ to foi the other councils who lent the money to find out why - to foi the other councils who lent the money to find out why they. to foi the other councils who lent i the money to find out why they had lent the _ the money to find out why they had lent the money _ the money to find out why they had lent the money. anyway, _ the money to find out why they had lent the money. anyway, after- the money to find out why they had . lent the money. anyway, after months and months _ lent the money. anyway, after months and months of— lent the money. anyway, after months and months of working _ lent the money. anyway, after months and months of working on _ lent the money. anyway, after months and months of working on this - lent the money. anyway, after months and months of working on this and - and months of working on this and getting _ and months of working on this and getting documents— and months of working on this and getting documents from _ and months of working on this and getting documents from many- and months of working on this and i getting documents from many other councils. _ getting documents from many other councils. it — getting documents from many other councils, it transpired _ getting documents from many other councils, it transpired that - getting documents from many other councils, it transpired that they - councils, it transpired that they had been — councils, it transpired that they had been investing _ councils, it transpired that they had been investing a _ councils, it transpired that they had been investing a lot- councils, it transpired that they had been investing a lot of- councils, it transpired that they i had been investing a lot of money councils, it transpired that they - had been investing a lot of money in green _ had been investing a lot of money in green energy— had been investing a lot of money in green energy investments. - had been investing a lot of money in green energy investments. in- green energy investments. in particular, — green energy investments. in particular, they— green energy investments. in particular, they had - green energy investments. in particular, they had investedi green energy investments. in- particular, they had invested over £400 _ particular, they had invested over £400 million _ particular, they had invested over £400 million into— particular, they had invested over £400 million into one _ particular, they had invested over £400 million into one vehicle, . particular, they had invested overl £400 million into one vehicle, and this seemed — £400 million into one vehicle, and this seemed quite _ £400 million into one vehicle, and this seemed quite risky— £400 million into one vehicle, and this seemed quite risky to - £400 million into one vehicle, and this seemed quite risky to us, - £400 million into one vehicle, and this seemed quite risky to us, so l £400 million into one vehicle, and i this seemed quite risky to us, so we 'ust this seemed quite risky to us, so we just went _ this seemed quite risky to us, so we just went to— this seemed quite risky to us, so we just went to ask— this seemed quite risky to us, so we just went to ask throughout - this seemed quite risky to us, so we just went to ask throughout about i just went to ask throughout about the other— just went to ask throughout about the other investment _ just went to ask throughout about the other investment and - just went to ask throughout about the other investment and we - just went to ask throughout about | the other investment and we went just went to ask throughout about - the other investment and we went and asked _ the other investment and we went and asked them _ the other investment and we went and asked them if— the other investment and we went and asked them if they _ the other investment and we went and asked them if they could _ the other investment and we went and asked them if they could confirm - the other investment and we went and asked them if they could confirm the l asked them if they could confirm the investments — asked them if they could confirm the investments that— asked them if they could confirm the investments that we _ asked them if they could confirm the investments that we heard _ asked them if they could confirm the investments that we heard —— - asked them if they could confirm the investments that we heard —— ask. investments that we heard —— ask thurroci you're edging towards a hundred rand? ~ ., ., , you're edging towards a hundred irand? . ., ., , ., you're edging towards a hundred rand? ., ., , ., ,., ,., you're edging towards a hundred rand? ., ., , ., ,., ., grand? we got lots of stories out of it as well. sure, _ grand? we got lots of stories out of it as well. sure, sure, _ grand? we got lots of stories out of it as well. sure, sure, sure. - grand? we got lots of stories out of it as well. sure, sure, sure. i- it as well. sure, sure, sure. i understand — it as well. sure, sure, sure. i understand it's _ it as well. sure, sure, sure. i understand it's getting - it as well. sure, sure, sure. i| understand it's getting harder it as well. sure, sure, sure. i. understand it's getting harder to use foi request because last month, the editor signed a letter calling for the investigation in the clearing house, which is alleged to have profiled some journalists and blocked freedom of information requests. what do you make of that? i think it's a huge problem. this is decisions — i think it's a huge problem. this is decisions and _ i think it's a huge problem. this is decisions and money _ i think it's a huge problem. this is decisions and money that - i think it's a huge problem. this is decisions and money that is - i think it's a huge problem. this is decisions and money that is being| decisions and money that is being spent _ decisions and money that is being spent on — decisions and money that is being spent on our— decisions and money that is being spent on our part. _ decisions and money that is being spent on our part. as _ decisions and money that is being spent on our part. asjournalists,| spent on our part. asjournalists, we should — spent on our part. asjournalists, we should have _ spent on our part. asjournalists, we should have access, - spent on our part. asjournalists, we should have access, but- spent on our part. asjournalists, we should have access, but the l we should have access, but the public — we should have access, but the public should _ we should have access, but the public should have _ we should have access, but the public should have access - we should have access, but the public should have access too. i we should have access, but the . public should have access too. the freedom _ public should have access too. the freedom of— public should have access too. the freedom of information _ public should have access too. the freedom of information act - public should have access too. the freedom of information act is - public should have access too. the freedom of information act is a i public should have access too. the i freedom of information act is a very powerful— freedom of information act is a very powerful tool. — freedom of information act is a very powerful tool, but _ freedom of information act is a very powerful tool, but it's— freedom of information act is a very powerful tool, but it's increasingly. powerful tool, but it's increasingly pushback— powerful tool, but it's increasingly pushback on~ _ powerful tool, but it's increasingly pushback on. it's _ powerful tool, but it's increasingly pushback on. it's being _ powerful tool, but it's increasingly pushback on. it's being pushed . powerful tool, but it's increasingly. pushback on. it's being pushed back on as— pushback on. it's being pushed back on as our— pushback on. it's being pushed back on as our case — pushback on. it's being pushed back on as our case shows _ pushback on. it's being pushed back on as our case shows by— pushback on. it's being pushed back on as our case shows by commercial interests _ on as our case shows by commercial interests more _ on as our case shows by commercial interests. more and _ on as our case shows by commercial interests. more and more _ on as our case shows by commercial interests. more and more private i interests. more and more private companies — interests. more and more private companies are _ interests. more and more private companies are involved - interests. more and more private companies are involved in - interests. more and more private companies are involved in publici companies are involved in public sector, — companies are involved in public sector, and _ companies are involved in public sector, and one _ companies are involved in public sector, and one of— companies are involved in public sector, and one of the _ companies are involved in public sector, and one of the revisions| companies are involved in public. sector, and one of the revisions of the act _ sector, and one of the revisions of the act is — sector, and one of the revisions of the act is people _ sector, and one of the revisions of the act is people say— sector, and one of the revisions of the act is people say councils - sector, and one of the revisions of the act is people say councils and i the act is people say councils and governments _ the act is people say councils and governments don't _ the act is people say councils and governments don't have... - the act is people say councils and governments don't have... and . the act is people say councils and - governments don't have... and that's what our— governments don't have... and that's what our case — governments don't have... and that's what our case was _ governments don't have... and that's what our case was trying _ governments don't have... and that's what our case was trying to _ governments don't have... and that's what our case was trying to get - governments don't have... and that's what our case was trying to get at - what our case was trying to get at is we _ what our case was trying to get at is we now— what our case was trying to get at is we now have _ what our case was trying to get at is we now have access _ what our case was trying to get at is we now have access to - what our case was trying to get at. is we now have access to information about _ is we now have access to information about counsel — is we now have access to information about counsel investments. - is we now have access to information about counsel investments. 0k. - about counsel investments. 0k. jennifer, about counsel investments. 0k. jennifer. you've _ about counsel investments. jennifer, you've been tweeting about counsel investments.“ jennifer, you've been tweeting at the weekend about greater manchester police reporting to report crimes in a 12 month period. what do you make about this change to foi and its utility to investigative journalists? i utility to investigative journalists?— utility to investigative journalists? utility to investigative 'ournalists? , ., journalists? i tends to find the foi is uuite journalists? i tends to find the foi is quite difficult _ journalists? i tends to find the foi is quite difficult to _ journalists? i tends to find the foi is quite difficult to use _ journalists? i tends to find the foi is quite difficult to use the - journalists? i tends to find the foi is quite difficult to use the best. is quite difficult to use the best of times, — is quite difficult to use the best of times, but during the pandemic, the law— of times, but during the pandemic, the law has— of times, but during the pandemic, the law has changed so it was not using _ the law has changed so it was not using organisations to say we can't access— using organisations to say we can't access f0i — using organisations to say we can't access foi because you've got covid going _ access foi because you've got covid going on. _ access foi because you've got covid going on, which has then made it extra _ going on, which has then made it extra hard~ — going on, which has then made it extra hard. here's the thing that often _ extra hard. here's the thing that often strikes me about the foi. organisations that are repeated in defenders —— repeat offenders... there _ defenders —— repeat offenders... there are — defenders —— repeat offenders... there are organisations that are very bad — there are organisations that are very bad at, and there are a great many— very bad at, and there are a great many ways— very bad at, and there are a great many ways they can try and wiggle out of— many ways they can try and wiggle out of that— many ways they can try and wiggle out of that information. and i completely agree that the more private — completely agree that the more private sector involvement... george. _ private sector involvement... george, the government pushed back last year. it's all detailed in your book. they had a blog challenging some of your conclusions. what was going on there? i some of your conclusions. what was going on there?— going on there? i think it happened once before- _ going on there? i think it happened once before. they _ going on there? i think it happened once before. they did _ going on there? i think it happened once before. they did a _ going on there? i think it happened once before. they did a piece - going on there? i think it happened| once before. they did a piece about the ventilators�* shortages. it seems to be critical in the government. they seem to have attacked it of trying to undermine reporters. through the blog, it was quite extraordinary because it was a deeply misleading. one example was they were trying to give evidence that the experts haven�*t been warning injanuary that the experts haven�*t been warning in january that the that the experts haven�*t been warning injanuary that the pandemic would be serious. but they selectively quoted some scientists. when we interviewed scientists for comment on this, they described it as selective quotation and they were hugely critical of it.— hugely critical of it. who's behind that? that's _ hugely critical of it. who's behind that? that's a — hugely critical of it. who's behind that? that's a really _ hugely critical of it. who's behind that? that's a really weird - hugely critical of it. who's behind that? that's a really weird thing. | that? that�*s a really weird thing. who do you think is behind it? taste who do you think is behind it? we were who do you think is behind it? , were told they had this kind of unit that was set up, which came out a day after our article. and it�*sjust extraordinary they were diverting so much resource to trying to sort of devalue a piece of investigative journalism that turned out to be completely accurate. and journalism that turned out to be completely accurate.— completely accurate. and in a pandemic. — completely accurate. and in a pandemic, this _ completely accurate. and in a pandemic, this is _ completely accurate. and in a pandemic, this is something. pandemic, this is something governments are striving to do a bit more. we�*ve seen with prime minister borisjohnson and chancellor rishi sunak, we see videos of them up photographers. you do find some there�*s something about technology that�*s given government to control the message much more. that's given government to control the message much more. government, big companies. — the message much more. government, big companies. the _ the message much more. government, big companies, the amount _ the message much more. government, big companies, the amount of - the message much more. government, big companies, the amount of people l big companies, the amount of people governments — big companies, the amount of people governments employ— big companies, the amount of people governments employ now— big companies, the amount of people governments employ now to - big companies, the amount of people governments employ now to get - big companies, the amount of peoplej governments employ now to get their message _ governments employ now to get their message out. — governments employ now to get their message out. pr _ governments employ now to get their message out, pr companies. - governments employ now to get their message out, pr companies. there l message out, pr companies. there something — message out, pr companies. there something like _ message out, pr companies. there something like three _ message out, pr companies. there something like three pr— message out, pr companies. there something like three pr people - message out, pr companies. there something like three pr people for| something like three pr people for everyone _ something like three pr people for everyone journalists. _ something like three pr people for everyone journalists. we _ something like three pr people for everyone journalists. we are - everyone journalists. we are fighting _ everyone journalists. we are fighting a _ everyone journalists. we are fighting a huge _ everyone journalists. we are fighting a huge battle - everyone journalists. we are fighting a huge battle of- everyone journalists. we are fighting a huge battle of pr. | everyone journalists. we are - fighting a huge battle of pr. the amount— fighting a huge battle of pr. the amount of— fighting a huge battle of pr. the amount of legal— fighting a huge battle of pr. the amount of legal letters - fighting a huge battle of pr. the amount of legal letters that - fighting a huge battle of pr. the amount of legal letters that we i fighting a huge battle of pr. the . amount of legal letters that we get in, amount of legal letters that we get in. not _ amount of legal letters that we get in. notjust— amount of legal letters that we get in. notjust on— amount of legal letters that we get in, not just on the _ amount of legal letters that we get in, notjust on the part _ amount of legal letters that we get in, notjust on the part of- amount of legal letters that we get in, not just on the part of private . in, not just on the part of private companies. _ in, not just on the part of private companies. but— in, not just on the part of private companies, but on _ in, not just on the part of private companies, but on the _ in, not just on the part of private companies, but on the part- in, not just on the part of private companies, but on the part of. companies, but on the part of government— companies, but on the part of government too. _ companies, but on the part of government too. they- companies, but on the part of government too. they will- companies, but on the part of- government too. they will re—get active _ government too. they will re—get active documents— government too. they will re—get active documents that _ government too. they will re—get active documents that they- government too. they will re—get active documents that they said i government too. they will re—get i active documents that they said they will give _ active documents that they said they will give you — active documents that they said they will give you -- _ active documents that they said they will give you " they— active documents that they said they will give you —— they will— active documents that they said they will give you —— they will react. - will give you —— they will react. youll— will give you —— they will react. you'll get— will give you —— they will react. you'll get so _ will give you —— they will react. you'll get so much _ will give you —— they will react. you'll get so much pushback, i will give you —— they will react. - you'll get so much pushback, they'll -et you'll get so much pushback, they'll get spokespeople _ you'll get so much pushback, they'll get spokespeople out _ you'll get so much pushback, they'll get spokespeople out in _ you'll get so much pushback, they'll get spokespeople out in the - you'll get so much pushback, they'll get spokespeople out in the army. get spokespeople out in the army trying _ get spokespeople out in the army trying to— get spokespeople out in the army trying to push— get spokespeople out in the army trying to push back— get spokespeople out in the army trying to push back on _ get spokespeople out in the army. trying to push back on investigative journalism~ — trying to push back on investigative journalism~ lt— trying to push back on investigative 'ournalism. �* . . trying to push back on investigative 'ournalism. �*, . , , . . journalism. it it's a sub'ect close to my heart. * journalism. it it's a sub'ect close to my heart. advice _ journalism. it it's a subject close to my heart. advice for - journalism. it it's a subject close to my heart. advice for young i to my heart. advice for young journalists. to my heart. advice for young journalists-— to my heart. advice for young 'ournalists. -m , . ,, to my heart. advice for young 'ournalists. . ,, ., journalists. make contacts, talk to them, journalists. make contacts, talk to them. and — journalists. make contacts, talk to them, and when _ journalists. make contacts, talk to them, and when you _ journalists. make contacts, talk to them, and when you can - journalists. make contacts, talk to them, and when you can take - journalists. make contacts, talk to them, and when you can take to i journalists. make contacts, talk to i them, and when you can take to him -- take— them, and when you can take to him -- take them— them, and when you can take to him —— take them to the pub. them, and when you can take to him -- take them to the pub.— -- take them to the pub. thank you all very much _ -- take them to the pub. thank you all very much indeed. _ -- take them to the pub. thank you all very much indeed. rachel- all very much indeed. rachel oldroyd, jennifer williams from the manchester evening news, and george arbuthnott of the sunday times. earlier, we heard from martin, the former editor of the washington post. i�*ll be back at the same time next week. thanks for watching. what quiet hello. we have high pressure in charge and that�*s how it�*s going to stay for the weekend and into next week as well. for most of us, fairly cloudy with a bit of sunshine from time to time, and still a little on the nippy side. the forecast through the night then shows a fair bit of cloud across the uk, but clear spells here and there as well. temperatures will range from around three or 4 degrees in the colder spots where the skies are clear to around eight celsius. here�*s a morning on saturday. the best of the sunshine in the morning and the southeast and through the afternoon, to the east of the pennines, so places like newcastle and hull should have a fairly decent temperature, 13 or 1a degrees. in the northwest of scotland, a weak weather front working in from the north, so the possibility of rain in northern parts of the highlands and the western isles. little change expected into sunday. that�*s it from me, bye—bye. tonight at ten: the eu braces for a third wave of coronavirus — as its faltering vaccination roll—out resumes. large parts of france are back in lockdown this evening as intensive care units feel the pressure. translation: it's not over, we're still facin: translation: it's not over, we're still facing the _ translation: it's not over, we're still facing the variants _ translation: it's not over, we're still facing the variants and - translation: it's not over, we're still facing the variants and people | still facing the variants and people should realise the seriousness the disease. the french prime minister has the oxford astrazeneca jab in a bid to reassure people after its brief suspension. here, borisjohnson does the same at the london hospital where he was treated for covid a year ago. almost half the uk�*s adult population has now been vaccinated. also tonight...

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