Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20240713

Now on bbc news, its hardtalk. Welcomed two hardtalk, im stephen sackur. As the global effort to control covid 19 continues, so arguments about culpability for the spread of the virus intensify. And at the heart of the story, china where the outbreak began. Did the Chinese Government impose to impulse to cover up the truth but the world in danger . 0r where they responded to admiral determination . My responded to admiral determination . My guest today is chinas ambassador in london liu xiaoming. Is china the villain or the hero of this pandemic. Ambassador liu xiaoming, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for to be with you again. We are delighted to have you again. We are delighted to have you on this programme at this difficult time. Let me ask you a simple question. Do you accept that covid 19 has its origins in china . It was first discovered in wuhan. But i cant say it originated from wuhan. I called into many information, many reports including bbc. It can be everywhere and anywhere. It could be found in the summer anywhere. It could be found in the summer rain. It can be found in some countries, it has very little connection with china for some it can also be found in a group of people who have never been to china. Soi people who have never been to china. So i couldnt say, it we cannot say it has originated from china. Ambassador but me stop you there because i am confused by that answer because i am confused by that answer because it clearly is a new virus that originated somewhere it crossed according to all the immunologists and the virologists it crossed from animals to humans and there was a first case and then it spread. There is no doubt that the first case was in china. I wonder why you are telling me it spread over the world and people have caught it who have never been to china. That is clear because it has become a pandemic. But the question that matters is where did it start . I think this question is still up for a scientist to decide where is the first case. I read a report that the first case was reported in china, i am talking in china on the 27th of december. I talked to the local Health Authorities. But i read a report that some of the cases even for much earlier than that, we read in the report by your newspapers yesterday, that your scientists medical advisers even warns your government that there might be a virus. And they knew much earlier last year. I can say the first case was reported in china on the 27th of december. think there is no doubt experts believe the origin of the first outbreak, the first examples of this covid i9 virus to be found in human beings came from wuhan and at the surrounding area in china. Ijust wonder whether you accept that it is very important that we understand exactly what happened at the beginning of this outbreak, that we understand frankly what mistakes and missteps were made which allowed the first outbreak to become a global pandemic. I think it is still debatable. I think we have to agree to disagree. I think its first discovered in wuhan area in china, but i cannot say it originated from wuhan. Let me tell you the timeline of chinas fight against this virus. When it was first reported on the 27th of december, and then the Chinese Health authorities, the cdc, notify who on the 31st of december. In the shortest possible time and also shared this information with other countries. China shared the discovery with the who in the shortest possible time and share the information about genetic sequence of this various in the early possible time. Let me interrupt you on the question of the time i facade you miss out one important point. 0n december 30 a doctor in wuhan used his chat group online to telephoto doctors that there was a new very worrying disease in wuhan. He advised his colleagues that they must wear protective clothing to avoid this new infection and just a couple of days later, he was summoned to the Public Security bureau, he was made to sign a letter to confess that he made false state m e nts to confess that he made false statements to severely disturb the social order. That was the beginning ofan social order. That was the beginning of an official cover up that continued through the month of january. Continued through the month of january. As i said earlier, nowl understand why there is a so called call for independent verification. They tried to find excuse to criticise china for a cover up at the fact is that he was not the first doctor to discover this virus. I have told you it was another doctor and he reported three days earlier to the Health Authorities. Then the Health Authorities in wuhan reported to the Central Government that four days later. That means one day before the first doctor spread this word. China authorities share this word. China authorities share this information with the who and other countries. With respect ambassador, the information that was shared was extremely limited because onjanuary iii, shared was extremely limited because on january 14, we now shared was extremely limited because onjanuary iii, we now know this shared was extremely limited because on january 14, we now know this from lea ks on january 14, we now know this from leaks that it been given to the washington provost and the associated press, we know than internally, chinas National Commission head laid out a very grim assessment of what was happening. Kevin to the washington post. He said the situation wasnt severe, compress, complex cases suggest human to human transmission happening, the risk of transmission and spread is high. But in public, that was internal. In public, the head of chinas Disease Control emergency centre, the very next day, said the risk of sustained human to human transmission is low, that it was preventable and controllable. So i put it to you again, there is compelling evidence that china four weeks did not tell the truth. You give me not enough time to answer your question. I have to a nswer time to answer your question. I have to answer a question with regard to the cover up. That is not true. The doctor reported through a normal child to help authorities. He spread word amongst his friends. In an independent country when you have something, the virus which is dangerous to Peoples Health but something that is unknown, there might always be a panic. I think the police authority, he warned him not to do it you cannot say this is a cover up since on the opposite channel, we report to the normal channel, we report to the normal channel but on this, we need to make sure that there should be no panic. Even today. I think your government is fighting about this misinformation. Some people try to use this to create panic for their own gain. But we have i think in these case is close. And it is reported to the central authorities, the Government Centre investigation tea m the Government Centre Investigation Team down to wuhan and find out that they did the right thing. And the Police Recommend has been revoked and it was made starter and has given the highest of honour. Doctor lee was regarded by the Chinese People as a hero when he died. Not only the Chinese People but also regarded by the Chinese Government. With respect, i think the people of china are very aware andi the people of china are very aware and i come back to it that the Chinese Government was not straight with them nor with the outside world. Tell me if you can one more time why ijanuary iii the National Health Commission Document that was an internal document was labelled not to be spread on the internet, not to be spread on the internet, not to be publicly disclosed in which they said that there was evidence of human to human transmission, clustered cases, a severe and complex problem. Why is it that the very next day i come back to it than one of your most senior officials. Author information is coming from washington post. I think you depend too much on american media. I hope you depend on the who for information. We share all of this information. We share all of this information with the who. I thought, i saw your interview with. Information with the who. I thought, i saw your interview with. China has transparent in terms of sharing information with the who. 0f has transparent in terms of sharing information with the who. Of course inside china, we have to take precautions, measures, we have to ta ke precautions, measures, we have to take strict conventional measures to fight against this virus. It is still unknown then, so it was not known done. Our understanding was the who with the other countries. Your problem is and you are a very senior diplomat, you know this is a problem that many people around the world simply do not believe the chinese version of events. Donald trump only a few hours ago said that he is not happy at all with chinas stance. They couldve stopped the virus at the source. He said they are undertaking a thorough investigation and the Vice President to mike pence listed a whole host of reasons why the United States believes that china was not straight with the world and is therefore culpable for the fact that this pandemic is now causing so much death and so much economic damage right around the world. You have, as china, a massive problem there. dont think so. I think when you say china has a massive problem, i think you are more talking about western world. I think since the opera, china has a very strong cooperation with the who and many other countries. We sent Technical Assistance and experts and provided medical supplies to more than 150 countries. All of them spoke highly of chinas efforts. I cant say the United States represents the world and even in the western world, we have been receiving appraisal, praise from the countries like United Kingdom, from france, from germany. You quote President Trump. Let me also quote him about his comment about china. 0n let me also quote him about his comment about china. On 24th of january, that was one month after we reported, almost one month we reported, almost one month we reported this virus, he said, the United States greatly appreciates chinas efforts and the transparency. Six chinas efforts and the transparency. Six days chinas efforts and the transparency. Six days later. They are working very hard and we are working very closely with china. He handled it well. Things have changed a great deal since the end of january. China have changed a great deal since the end ofjanuary. China it has to be said, you say look at what we have done to deliver medical assistance and equipping around the world. What many people see is china running a campaign of disinformation and propaganda around the world in recent weeks. You say we have a great relationship with france. The french just called in your counterpart the Chinese Ambassador in france accusing him of spreading disinformation because the Embassy Website in paris is claiming that all people in care homes in france are being abandoned to suffer and die alone. That is a colleague of yours. Another colleague of yours in the Foreign Ministry used social media to promote the Conspiracy Theory that the us military had a smuggled coronavirus into china. Why is your country running this Disinformation Campaign . is your country running this Disinformation Campaign . I think you picked the wrong target. Its not china who starts this campaign of disinformation. You can compare chinas statement and comments by chinas statement and comments by chinas leaders, chinese diplomats, Chinese Ambassadors with american counterparts, you will know who is spreading disinformation. Do you agree that mac do you agree. Do you agree with the Foreign Ministry spokesman who did put up the link suggesting that the us military had smuggled coronavirus into china . Is that something you also believe . think what youre saying is he retweeted some comment by some media reports. You know that i do not know why you focus on some comments by intermediaries in china but miss the disinformation by a senior official, even the National Leaders of the United States for some they start this campaign of disinformation. Especially by the type diplomat, the secretary of state. I think when it comes to china, there are no good worth about china. The chinese are regarded as evil regularly. Not as a country lending a helping hand for americans in the fight against this virus. I do not quite understand. How deep is the crisis with United States right now that has been sparked by all that the accusations that have arisen from coronavirus . How deep is the diplomatic crisis . We certainly want to have a good relation with United States. I had been posted twice in washington, dc. I always with a china and United States will gain from cooperation and lose from confrontation. And we have every reason to have a good relation with the United States but it has to be based on mutual trust, coordination, not confrontation. But you need two to tango. And since the outbreak, i think the presidency and President Trump keep close contact. President gm President Trump. They compare notes and just like president xi had a summer conversation with Prime Minister borisjohnson. We conversation with Prime Minister boris johnson. We want conversation with Prime Minister borisjohnson. We want to build an International Response to this virus. Ijust International Response to this virus. I just want to let americans know that china is not the enemy of the United States. It is the virus it is the enemy of the United States, they need to find the right target. A very Important Message or a sending facet could consider some gestures that would improve relations with not just gestures that would improve relations with notjust the United States but many other countries including australia and the uk who have made the Straight Point same point to your government. Will you now categorically guarantee to close down the sort of wet markets, no longer the sale of these live wild animals in the food markets that are known as the wet markets . Is that not something that has been banned not something that has been banned not just short term but absolutely banned forever in china . First to come to yourfirst banned forever in china . First to come to your first point about many countries. I cannot agree with you that china has a problem with a many countries. I think we have more friends than opponents than even enemies. I even say western countries, a few of would say western countries, do not wear present the world. I think china enjoys good relationships and i think we are building an International Response. We are building that net president xi said. Ambassador we are short on time, ifind may. I need specific a nswe rs. Time, ifind may. I need specific answers. 0n the wet markets, are they now close for good yes or no . There is no such thing about went to markets. This is a western and for a notion to many chinese. We do have a fresh market where fresh vegetables and fresh seafood, fish, are sold and fresh seafood, fish, are sold and some live poultry that is very rarely. I think youre talking about the so called illegal market for selling wildlife. That has been totally banned. And the water has been passed that it will be banned permanently. The law has been passed. That is there for a recognition, yes, a recognition on your government puts my part that the dangers of those markets where live wild animals were sold alongside other foodstuffs, they we re alongside other foodstuffs, they were dangers that date because the spread of coronavirus from animals to humans . I agree with that. Finally we have a few points to agree with. Im very pleased with that. Thats what this market, we are talking about wildlife market. It is totally banned. It is illegal to hunt, to treat, to eat even. So. People watching this will only wish that you made that ban real before Coronavirus Spread and cause such terrible damage around the world. Are you in anyway now prepared to say sorry for is happened . No, you come to your first point again. You cannot blame china for coronavirus. That is the problem with this argument. It was found in china, it was found in many places. Many places that have no connection with china at all. You keep pointing your finger set with china at all. You keep pointing yourfinger set china for with china at all. You keep pointing your finger set china for the outbreak and we have done our best capability. China is a victim of the coronavirus. China is not a source of this problem. China is not the producer of this epidemic. That is something we have to come clean about. China you know ambassador is seen for example by leading politicians in this country like the chairman of the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs select committee as very much the cause. He has talked about a soviet style system, a toxic system inside your government, inside your machine which he says has been responsible notjust for betraying the Chinese People and their health and well being but betraying the wider world as well. And there are now because for the United Kingdom and also calls in the United Kingdom and also calls in the United States and other countries for a disengagement from close economic ties with china. In britain, it is centred on huawei and your telecoms giant activities in the sg your telecoms giant activities in the 5g sector. People saying that should no longer be tolerated in the United Kingdom. As the ambassador in the uk, are you worried that there is going to be now an economic disengagement . No. Ithink you is going to be now an economic disengagement . No. I think you talk about this person as very senior politicians. But i dont think this view represents official positions of the uk government for some. I think the uk government and Prime Ministerjohnson are so committed to a Stronger Partnership with china. He reaffirmed the uks commitment to build a golden era with china. We do have a very good cooperation with the uk side, even throughout this outbreak in addition to communication, intensive communication. I have been here for ten yea rs communication. I have been here for ten years as a Chinese Ambassador. 0ur ten years as a Chinese Ambassador. Our top leaders have never seen such intensive communications. And on a ministerial level, we have a foreign minister, one state counsellor with secretary dominic raab and the director has a close contact with others. And i here in london have very close contact with the secretaries including matt hancock and alloc sharma, foreign secretary domenic rob, we have a strong relationship. You quote those people, soviets for example. I think there is totally a cold war man tell any of us up we are living in the third factory decade of the ten he First Century but those people still believe in old days when they we re still believe in old days when they were fighting the cold war. China is not former soviet union. I think china and uk. We are united by common interests then divided by other differences. I am very confident about this relationship. Ambassador we have to end it there but i do think you very much indeed for joining but i do think you very much indeed forjoining me here on hardtalk at this difficult time. Liu xiaoming, think you very much indeed. My pleasure. Thank you. Hello. It was not so much a case of april showers on wednesday. This was the scene for a time across birmingham but give it a wee bit of time and eventually that rain cleared away and out came the sun. The reason is we have two weather fronts to contend with and thursday again a mishmash of weather, low pressure very much the dominant feature. The isobars squeezing together on its southern flank. It will not be a particularly cold start today given all the breeze and cloud as well but for some it may well be a wet one. Just pushing wednesdays rain away from the north of england up into central and southern parts of scotland. There will be showers across wales and south west england, these will rush their way further east as we get on through the afternoon, may be the odd rumble of thunder and those winds too noticeable through the channel areas. 40 16 mph or so in the highest of the gust. The best of the brightness in Northern Ireland perhaps towards the west later in the day. Stuck underneath the cloud, the eastern side of scotland, nine only, a high of about 13 or iii. Those showers keep going for those eastern areas during the course of the evening. Gradually filtering away as the low pressure tries to move its centre of gravity out into the north sea. It is still the dominant influence across the northern half of the British Isles and in the afternoon again, we will see heavy downpours towards the eastern side of the pennines. Perhaps the driest of the weather towards the south and west. Where we could see a high of 15 or 16. That low pressure still dominant as we take you out of friday and move into the first part of the weekend. You get the sense that it is drifting a little bit further towards the east. And that allows us to pick up a north and north westerly wind. It is the Northern Areas fully exposed to that wind that will probably see the bulk of the showers. Elsewhere, saturday is shaping up to be a pretty reasonable day. Quite a lot of sunshine around and the temperatures responding as a consequence a high on the day of about 16 or 17. But it does not last. Some uncertainty about sunday. It could well be that the rain i am showing you here working its way into the south moves a little bit further north. We will keep you posted on that one. Take care, bye bye. A very warm welcome to bbc news, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. My names mike embley. The us economy slumps and the worst is yet to come. 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