Now on bbc news, Stephen Sackur speaks to the former un envoy for syria Staffan De Mistura on hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im Stephen Sackur. At the end of the second decade of the 21st century, does anybody still believe in the ability of the so called International Community to stop wars, disarm dictators and protect civilians . Look at the scale of suffering in syria, the renewed unrest across the middle east, the imminent american withdrawal from afghanistan. My my guest acro one has been a us envoy in all of those places over the past decade was up is it about time to acknowledge the irrelevance of the International Peacemakers . Staffa n d e of the International Peacemakers . Staffan de mistura, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. It is pretty much a year since you left your post as the un envoy in assyria. You have had a time for reflection. Syria. On reflection, do you think that mission was doomed from the moment you took it . I have been thinking exactly about that. When i was asked to ta ke exactly about that. When i was asked to take up from the past, it was told that it was mission impossible. Two of them had given up. He only served for a couple of years, kofi annan only six months and that was an impossible job. Was annan only six months and that was an impossiblejob. Was it arrogance that led you built to believe you could do Something Different . Well, no, i dont want to believe it was arrogance because i refused actually at the beginning. I was in a wonderfuljob, probably at the beginning. I was in a wonderful job, probably the at the beginning. I was in a wonderfuljob, probably the bestjob in the world. I was in capri, writing my memories. I was told by the sacred general, secretary general, there will be more than this many people dead. I said, how cani this many people dead. I said, how can i do this . Let me be frank. I wa nted can i do this . Let me be frank. I wanted to be a medical doctor. A doctor, even when he cannot treat the disease, god knows, if you are not diseased, will you give up on a patient . No, no. He willactually try to keep alive the patient or make a difference and reduce the pain. Because tomorrow, or perhaps after tomorrow there will be a treatment. That metaphor only goes too far. What a doctor wouldnt do would be to make the patient worse, at least not knowingly. But you, over the course of four years, watched as assahdas forces clip killed tens of thousands of people, if not more in syria, aleppo. You watched all of that. Assads forces. You, in a sense, brought the legitimacy to what president assad was doing the top that is on the contrary, in my opinion. What i was doing was keeping alive the hope of the Syrian People. Do you think the Syrian People really believe in you and your probe says . Syrian People really believe in you and your probe says . I think they really did and the alternative was not just the process really did and the alternative was notjust the process but the war. Think about what we tried to do and ididnt think about what we tried to do and i didnt succeed, i didnt stop the war because you know why . Two sides had decided they wanted to win the war. Hang on, you are fundamentally wrong, if i may say so, because you said at one point during the years, you said you know what . In their end there is no military victory and both of the sides will have two realise that. You are wrong because president assad sits in his palace today and i am sure he surveys his country and feels he has won a victory. You see, this is exactly the point that assad and the Syrian Government has been making. We can win this war. That is what the opposition had been saying all the time. Will he win the peace . That is the issue. It is easy to win territorially. These days, it might is right. You have seen it in yemen, in libya, everywhere else, there is an attempt to win the war but the issueis an attempt to win the war but the issue is can you win the peace . Back to your mistake. Would you acknowledge it was a mistake during those four years to think that there was a way of bringing assad to a realisation that there was no path to military victory . Because in that you failed, you didnt convince assad and in fact, in the end, you quit. You didnt tell the entire truth when you quit, you said you are quitting for personal reasons but later you said actually, i quit, because i felt the war territorially was coming to an end and i could not be the one shaking assads hand, so you know assad had one. Ab definitely, you knew it too. He has won a territorially the war. Ourjob is not actually to stop someone to win or lose a war, ourjob was, if there was any chance, any chance, and there was, and i will tell you one particular magic moment when there was a chance of actually stopping the war, but when the war is one because russia and iran has decided to put many, many more sticks on the table in favour of assad, the only thing you can do is one, try to keep the hope. Two, try to keep the process, hoping that they will be a moment when assad will realise that even if he is winning the war like he is doing at the moment, basically, in order to win the peace and stability of this country, he need to make a compromise. He needs to make concessions. He needs to accept new elections, he needs to accept the constitutional community. He needs, he needs, he needs. Of course, you are no longer on the scene. Your success has been trying to get together a conference to work on a new framework for a new syrian constitution and of course, within days of trying to get that initiative going, it fell apart because in essence, acree three and his associates are not interested in talking about a new quasi democratic constitution for the country. Well, lets wait until the end of this story rather than just judging ways at the moment. Let me give you an example. Today, syria is virtually destroyed. Today, he will have no enemies anymore except his own people who will be asking for construction and rehabilitation of a country mostly destroyed by himself because most of it was from air. By air. If that doesnt take place, dont you think there will be a chance they will be major turmoil . There will actually be a new unkindness taking place because the majority will not feel included . I am convinced also. I am not convinced that with hundreds of thousands dead and with almost half the population displaced that the Syrian People are up for a new uprising against assad because of economic conditions, no, i am uprising against assad because of economic conditions, no, iam not convinced. Hope not because we want stability in assyria. The Syrian People deserve to have a better life than what they have had. In syria. They have indeed and during this conversation, it has to be with the humanitarian suffering, but also, it has to be teasing out the Lessons Learned from your role as one of the worlds must most experienced peacemakers. Looking at the words about you,. A comment on your approach saying the thing about staffa n d e your approach saying the thing about Staffan De Mistura is he wanted to build trust and that included trust with the russians and with the regime. Now, looking back, do you think trust has anything to do with your relations with assad and the russians . A leader needs to bring some sort of trust and relationship. Assad, i didnt want to shake his hand,it assad, i didnt want to shake his hand, it is not exactly true for the myjob, you are doing it at the end of every interview. I do it every time in my life. We dont have the luxury of choosing our interlock. I shook hands with melos shook hands with gadhafi, slobodan milosevic. Does that mean i agree with them . I do not. The key word was never mind. I continuously, that is why we had a difficult relationship, i constantly try to find a way to interfere with this conflict. My gut me and my colleague and deputy put got together and we were raising the issue about aleppo. When aleppo was being bombed, we made a drama about it and then suggested some type of formulas all the time. The problem is that originally, i third wanted to win the war in a brutal way in one year. Well, at the moment, we do still have some hope. One could flip that around and say the net result of what you did was just to make the suffering more protracted and prolonged. That is very unfair, frankly. Very unfair because we did all that we could. If you have seen andi all that we could. If you have seen and i am sure you must have seen it, every time that the city was being besieged, we made a huge issue about it. Even i personally tried to be personally honoured because to reduce the period when aleppo was being besieged and bond to get the jihadists out so they would be no one left to vomit. Bomb it. |j am not seeing. Crosstalk. That is important and am not seeing. Crosstalk. That is importantandi am not seeing. Crosstalk. That is important and i dont mean to belittle the saving of human lives but i also want to reflect on some of the commentary around some of the way you handled the process, including, for example, the person who works for you for a brief time on the syria project, he said that the day jake on the syria project, he said that the day jake danger is it becomes self perpetuating. An effort that exists mainly in the minds of what becomes a Cottage Industry of diplomats. You are more concerned about keeping the diplomatic process going on achieving any real result and at the end of the day, shouldnt you, long before you finally did, shouldnt you have stood up to what was happening, confronted it and quit . Said to the world, i will not put up with this, i will not give it a figleaf. You know, apart from a saying. He was shortly with us. Crosstalk. He was deeply frustrated. I stopped the bombing of aleppo. I knew it was going to be difficult. Both sides didnt want to have a freeze, they didnt want to stop it, they both thought they were going to win the warand they both thought they were going to win the war and in spite of that, i pushed for it. And do you know why . Because you have to try and you can interfere and you can produce some type of constructive impellers because even when the Security Council is blocked. Going back to resignation, twice i thought about it. Once was when aleppo, the second period, when the final battle had taken place, when the us had basically withdrawn because it was after the election, after the election and President Trump, there was a vacuum, it was bombed all the time and there was no counterbalance to what was happening and i said you know what . I will go and resign and then i thought to myself i will talk to my colleagues, all of those who stay. I had 82 people who stayed all the time with me and i said, you know, we may fail but we may feel better and we will not give up. If we give up, he was left here . So what i did, ok, i resigned. And do you know what . God forbid that there would be an earthquake, a bush fire somewhere and Something Else happening. The news will be three minutes. Staffan de mistura has resigned like mr kofi annan. And who would be happy about it . Mass assad will finally say it doesnt have the un pushing for un issues, convoys , have the un pushing for un issues, convoys, humanitarian aid, any foreign political pluses including warfights. Foreign political pluses including war fights. By staying you took some political decisions particular decisions. Russian and turkish government between them adopted a new diplomatic channel which in essence allowed them to carve up which in essence allowed them to carve up what happened in northern to syria to the National Self and you essentially sanctioned it and gaveit you essentially sanctioned it and gave it a stamp. Let us go back. This has been a moving over four years, let us go back. This has been a moving overfour years, environment. There was a vacuum. President obama had left, President Trump had not come up with any kind of strategy regarding syria. Aleppo collapsed, which means from the oppositional point of view. Which means from the oppositional point of view. Crosstalk. You have every right to put it into context, but the bottom line is here we see today, you have left syria, the reality is asad is there, the russians have got what they wanted, because they, in essence have used their military might to ensure their self interest, the turks have got what they wanted, because they have moved into Northern Syria and the americans let them do it. What it appears to me to be is that serious pa rt appears to me to be is that serious part of a much bigger picture, which is that the big powers are exercising self interest in a much more explicit way. Diplomacy has become transactional and, frankly, donald trump today seems more at ease today with Vladimir Putin and Recep Tayyip Erdogan that he seems with the European Union and multilaterals like yourself. Would you acknowledge that is the case today . Yes, i would acknowledge that the situation has radically changed. By the situation has radically changed. By have been 47 years in 21 complex. Things have changed radically from that point of view. That now there is much more might is right. And multilateral peacemakers, such as yourself, in that context, have very little to offer. Well. Canno put it another way around. Why was there the day in a meeting with some of my friends and colleagues. In libya we have a un special envoy. In lebanon, at the moment, in this difficult moment, a un special envoy. Achieving what . The alternative would be what . Imagine we are not there. Imagine we are not being a co nsta nt there. Imagine we are not being a constant nuisance, a constant proposal, like we have been doing all the time, every week, every month. Tell me what would have been the case . Vacuum . Complete might is right . Are you wishing that . No, i am not wishing that in the slightest. And im not on some sort of moral high ground telling you that what you have spent your career trying to do is wrong. Im simply saying, in this context, the way the world works today, is there any meaningful role left for people like you . You meaningful role left for people like you . You talk meaningful role left for people like you . You talk about your colleagues currently in beirut, in a rock, do you think they are making a blind bit of difference. In a rock we have seen bit of difference. In a rock we have seen 400 People Killed in recent weeks. The militias are armed. There is anarchy on the streets of baghdad and other towns and cities. What difference is the un envoy making . Less tha n difference is the un envoy making . Less than before. Because the Security Council often is divided, especially in syria. Certainly less than before when might is right. And certainly less than before when we have a us disengagement, which, whatever we consider, would have been a balancing element in which a mediator, a lawyer, a lawyer normally has a better role when there is a stalemate. But when one of the two sides, the case of syria is obvious, feels that they have won the war they dont need all then wa nt the war they dont need all then want a lawyer. But, let me go back to syria. They have substantial confidence, and you can remember what they told you about a year ago, more than a year, in the fact that there is one rule that still remains, one is no one can provide legitimacy to any type of deal except the un. Why was the un invited to sochi . We actually went in order to bring it back to geneva. That deal between turkey on syria, would that have an International Legitimacy in an arab country . They need the un. The danger is used as a fig leaf, nothing more. Crosstalk. We dontjust fig leaf, nothing more. Crosstalk. We dont just take for granted fig leaf, nothing more. Crosstalk. We dontjust take for granted and see yes, goodbye, and here is the blessing. Trust me otherwise they would have been by far more popular with some of them. In the course of your previous answer you said something interesting, you alluded to the political situation in the United States stop when we talk about, and use these quotation marks, the International Community, it seems to me theres very little phrase without United States. But see in the Trump Administration is a president who was determined to pull his forces out of afghanistan, frankly he seems determined to do with whether or not he gets a Peace Agreement with the delavan stop is determined, it seems, to draw down his troops from across the middle east. He is determined to plough his own furrow in israel palestine against the wishes of the International Community. If the United States is not prepared to be front and Centre Within the International Community, doesnt that change everything . It does change a lot. Id totally agree. Well, this is history, this is the world, we just well, this is history, this is the world, wejust going well, this is history, this is the world, we just going to well, this is history, this is the world, wejust going to be passive . Some have told me, you know, stein geneva, for instance, you can do nothing. And they cry and complain or try to come up constantly with new proposals, new ideas, in moments when, in fact, new proposals, new ideas, in moments when, infact, either of new proposals, new ideas, in moments when, in fact, either of the two sides, in spite of my desire, will still need the un into it. Before we come back to what has been a refrain from you throughout, might is right, lets just from you throughout, might is right, letsjust think, from you throughout, might is right, lets just think, perhaps, from you throughout, might is right, letsjust think, perhaps, whether there is some wisdom and what donald trump is saying. Let us think about afghanistan were you were an employee in 2007 2008. So you know afghanistan very well. In our seems from secret papers are blessed by the watchman bows that came from an internal audit of americas success in afghanistan over an 18 year period, the americans are now admitting to themselves that their intervention, from beginning to end, has pretty much been a disaster. It has pretty much been a disaster. It has cost countless billions. It hasnt tackled the military threat from the taliban. They still hold swathes of territory across the country. Worse than that, the country. Worse than that, the country is utterly corrupt, it seems, the Afghan Security forces arent capable of withstanding the taliban thread, or at least not conquering it. It is, according to the internal audit of the americans, pretty much a disaster from beginning to end. So maybe its wise for donald trump to say we cant do this interventionism anymore, it doesnt work, and its not in our national interest. Ok. Since i was both in iraq and afghanistan and now in syria and i was most of this happening academic wanted to commence of what you said. The first one was, once you get into afghanistan, we were all new yorkers. You mean after 9 11. Of course after 9 11. Even sweden from a neutral country, got involved. The idea was that it should have been stick around, finish the job, make sure that in fact those excluded, they would feel part of the overall environment. Instead, the nextep, andi environment. Instead, the nextep, and i think the us acknowledgement in the us, they got involved in iraq. When there was no chemical or atomic weapons. Why was the one inspecting the president ial palaces. And got involved in 23 when Saddam Hussein had, as a major enemy in his own eyes , hussein had, as a major enemy in his own eyes, the competitor, which was alqaeda. So no alqaeda. Three, leaving iraq prematurely, before the actual deal regarding, including those who had been helping, they did a very good job in my opinion, and stopping alqaeda there, produced later on saw mo salah and daesh. So this noble effect of mistakes. But let me go back to. This noble effect of mistakes. But let me go back to. Briefly. Were almost of time. One thing about afghanistan. Who among us can argue with President Trump that its not time for ending is 18 years conflict . No question about it. But can we do that at any cost . They give you one example. 18 years the afg ha n give you one example. 18 years the afghan women are now lawyers, dock is, judges, professors. They are desperately worried about just is, judges, professors. They are desperately worried aboutjust being dumped back into that. So deal in getting out, why not, its time. But doing it at any cost, even over what had been acquired, many of our people, including my colleagues, died in afghanistan. For what . People, including my colleagues, died in afghanistan. Forwhat . Not just bin laden, his dad, but because the human rights issues, which the women in particular got. That type of aspect, i think, President Trump should be also considering when he wa nts to should be also considering when he wants to get out of afghanistan. Welcome i want if he is. We have to end. Throughout this interview you have used the phrase might is right and you have constantly said that your career, your life has been a determined effort to ensure that is not true and not the way the world works. Ive put it to you that today it is, seemingly, the way the world works. And thats why im trying to convince many young people to try to do what i did. Because we should not accept it at face value and just resign and wait for it. We have to end there. Staffan de mistura, i think you very much for being on hardtalk. Thank you. I think you very much. Hello. Well, wednesday morning is going to be quite foggy across some parts of england so the advice is to take it steady on the roads almost anywhere in england and the fog could linger right through the morning and possibly into the early afternoon, particularly across northern parts of england but as i say, but the south, the midlands, the north are at risk of getting the fog. At the moment, we are in between weather systems. There is a band of wind and rain heading our way but thats not going to reach our shores until a little bit later on wednesday so in the short term, its quiet out there, the winds are light, that fog is forming, you can see it here across the south, the midlands as well, patches in the north too and on top of that, the temperatures are around freezing or below, particularly across northern parts of the uk so the risk of some icy patches early on wednesday as well. So here is that fog again, you can see it across the midlands but it could in the south too and then basically that fog will drift a bit further north into Northern England and it will do that because the winds will be blowing out of the south. It should disperse some of that fog so there will be sunshine around eastern areas but you cant miss this in the west, this is our wet and windy weather sweeping into many western parts of the uk during the course of wednesday afternoon and wednesday night. Low pressure here, that here spells gusty winds as well. Around western coasts, we could see winds gusting to i6mph and these are warm southerlies as well, the orange colour blowing out of the southern climes and that can mean only one thing, that those temperatures will be rising. So we are in for a very mild, wet day on thursday, almost anywhere, rain likely across the uk and the temperatures could get up to 13 or 14 degrees across the south east of the country, really mild for the second half of december. And then double figures with the rain in scotland as well, and we keep those southerly winds through the course of thursday night into friday. But there is an indication, as we head into friday the temperatures will ease just a little bit or rather theyll drop away back down to maybe 10 degrees or so. You can see around about 9 there, for example, in liverpool and there will be some rain around, too. So i think really unsettled run up to christmas at least this week for many of us and those temperatures up into the teens across the south of the country. Lets have a sneak peek of what the weekend might bring. So temperatures back down to around 9 10 degrees and it is going to remain unsettled but details as far as the weather goes this weekend are still a little uncertain. Thats it from me, bye bye. This is the briefing im sally bundock. Our top story as the us house of representatives prepares to vote on impeaching donald trump, he lashes out, calling it an open war on democracy. A warning that a Health Emergency is taking place as more refugees make their way to the greek islands. You know, one toilet per 200 humans. Yes, it is pretty unbelievable. Anger in ukraine protesters say new land reform proposals will benefit oligarchs and foreign investors. As the latest Star Wars Film bursts on to the big screen you