Now on bbc news, dateline london. Hello, and welcome to dateline london. Im carrie gracie. This week something we didnt expect President Trump defending nato against attack from a european leader. Something we did expect a teenager shaking up a Global Climate change conference. And something where no side dares trust its expectations a british election. My guests this week are abdel bari atwan, writer on arab affairs, portuguese writer eunice goes, henry chu, International Editor of variety, marc roche of french news weekly le point. Welcome to you all. Is it too easy to knock nato . At a fractious summit to mark the alliances 70th birthday, the french president stood by his assessment that it was brain dead, the american president said such comments were disrespectful, the turkish president retorted that it was the french president who was brain dead and the canadian Prime Minister got caught on camera gossiping about the american president , who then said the canadian was two faced. But natos secretary Generaljens Stoltenberg shrugged all this off as surface stuff and insisted the substance of the alliance was strong at 70. On the evidence of last weeks summit, is it . Marc, you start us off, you were there. It was quite messy, but on the whole they managed, like they do at these meetings, a declaration saying nothing. I think macron is right. It was rather a wake up call, because europe is rather russia, america is china, for france it is what is going on in africa, and terrorism and cyber terrorism, so they have to adapt to the trend, and they havent done it. With brexit, there will be European Defence damage. Brexit is coming, and europe will organise itself in defence because we cant rely on america. And then there will be franco british at canton defence, because those are the only really armies on the continent really. It is an organisation which is not fit for purpose. I would not necessarily agree that nato is dead. I would agree that spending by various nato countries is going up. We have been hearing, since the fall of the soviet union, that nato is no longer necessary, or doesnt have an identity any longer. And certainly there is some soul searching about what is the threat and where does it go through now. Saying it is dead is a step too far. I suppose it is a matter of expectations. Certainly, trump did not upend of events by calling them obsolete . In the one hand he said it was obsolete, and now he is defending nato. I think it does need to figure out what its purposes and whether threats lie. One thing it did not address and which we will later is Climate Change, and that is a National Security threat around the world. I think nato still has some resilience left in it. Eight years ago, when it was debating what to do in libya, people were talking about the fact that it was squabbling and does it have a future, and here we are eight years later. So i think that soul searching will continue to go on. Theyre embarking on another process of trying to really refine themselves. But whether we can call them dead, i think there is still life in the old geezer yet. What about macrons bid to say that europe needs to step up and take control . I think he is right, because in 70 years the threats of the atlantic have changed. But the United States also seems to have come on now, very different strategic goals, the geo political challenges are very different, and it also does not seem to be extremely interested in the security of europe. So, i think what macron said, perhaps, it was not the most diplomatic language, but occasionally leaders need to use forceful language to shake up an institution and think about its future. Normally the debates get stuck on issues of funding. Far more important, nato, if it wants to endure as an institution, needs to think about what its mission is going to be. What are its threats, what are the security it faces . And lets face it when we look at the security of europe, a lot of the threats it faces are internal. Were talking about leaders and governments that are undermining democracy. We have to think of our relationship with turkey, and allies. Lets take a look at what happened in syria these past six months, where the United States was at odds with turkey in syria. This was not supposed to happen amongst nato allies. So a big think up needs to take place. A think up that they did promise, because they said they were going to have a forward looking reflection process. Were you impressed by that . I wasnt impressed, no. I believe nato is passing through a phase of dismantlement. Thats how i see it. Nato was actually tested twice on syria, and they failed completely there. And the iran nuclear deal. Now we have two security axes. Also, a deal which again exposed the weakness and division among nato, and now we have another purpose which is coming in the gulf. An influence there, we have two axes, and both of them are actually part of nato. The european axis, the European Alliance is taking care of the so called naval routes in the hormuz gulf, and then we have an American Coalition which is completely different. So how can we have two alliances on the gulf to face the iranian influence, and both of them from nato, and no Co Ordination between the two sides . I believe nato is dying. Germany and france, they would like to have their own Security System away from nato, and trump understands money. He said you should increase your payment to nato to cover the cost of it. You should also increase your participation in that, increasing it to 2 of your national income. I believe it is a huge mess. We are going to have to leave that topic, or most parts of it, i hope therell nato leaders are watching because that is a very long to do list in their forward thinking and reflection process. One of the things that hendryjust mentioned was climate. Lets turn to that now. The point of no return is in sight and hurtling towards us. The warning from un secretary general Antonio Guterres as he attempted to concentrate government minds at the madrid Climate Change conference. Outside the chamber, teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg was equally grim, telling a protest march of young activists, we have achieved nothing. Will madrid now produce the concrete action they are demanding . Barry, why dont you start us off on that . Unfortunately, it is a very serious problem, and the attention to this from the very big players actually is very limited, so i am not very optimistic here. Why am i not optimistic . Because we are waiting for a huge disaster to take place, and then the International Community will start crying. That is what we saw before when the prices of oiljumped ioo . We are waiting for a disaster to take place, so after that they will pay attention. Now, the young people are raising the flag. Those young people are very aware of what is happening, and i believe that if the seas level rise by 1. 5 metres, i think most of the american western coasts, most of the islands there are we waiting for a disaster to take place. I would say to take it even further than you, some of the leaders are not paying attention, some are positively destructive. The us is actually pulling out of the paris accords. We have a climate denier in the white house. In brazil, there is a president that also denies that Climate Change is happening, and applies deforestation to the amazon. China has a mixed, but somewhat positive attitude towards combating Climate Change. Once their economy started to slow down, which we have seen in the last couple of years, coal fired plants are back on the agenda. Subsidies have been axed. Without actual enforcement mechanisms, which this conference will not produce, there is not going to be the change we need to seek to avoid catastrophes that are in in weight. In paris, when the last pledges were made, that was on the back of a deal made between the us and china. Thats right, and now weve seen the fruit of that, unfortunately. Eunice, youre portuguese and so is the secretary general. He is using this Strong Language to get things moving. Does he have the political leverage as an individual or a politician . I think he has the moral leverage, because as the un secretary general, he represents the world. Is it going to be effective . This conference is a talking shop. Nothing is going to be agreed. I am trying to kind of see the Silver Lining up all of this. And i think that the last year, the last 18 months, weve seen a change in the way the issue is perceived. The issue has been now agenda set. The eyes of the world are now on political leaders, and for them to commit themselves to actual policies that will result in a reduction of Carbon Dioxide emissions. And i believe the younger generations, Greta Thunberg and ourchildren, wait for nothing less. This is going to take some time, and the question is, will it be enough . Mark, as Greta Thunberg herself has said, in madrid we have achieved nothing. She and the other young climate activists have achieved a raising in consciousness, as eunice was saying, but in terms of an actual remodelling of how the economy works, we lie in wait. Any government will put Climate Change on top of its priority, but when it comes to the crunch, it is employment that leaders will be elected on. They will put employment and Economic Growth above anything, and that means that Climate Change is not in practice the top issue. This being said, the good news, as you said, is that the young people are aware of it, and they are at the forefront of it, and also that the Green Movement is coming back. At the european election, they did very well, and they are coming, now, almost to government in the lower countries and in germany. So those are positive aspects. Europe is not on target to meet its 2030 targets. Well, the other issues, linked in fact with Climate Change, like immigration, unemployment, like populism, it is verbal saying Climate Change is important, but in practice, its not. We need to bring in, and start electing green leaders and voices that do not see tackling Climate Change as the an obstacle to Economic Growth, an obstacle to the creation ofjobs, and so on. Because tackling Climate Change can also create lots of very good opportunities for sustainable development. It can create different types ofjobs as well. And you hear the different types of conversations taking place between green economists, but this is happening at the margins. We are stuck in a very Old Fashioned mindset. Right back who can articulate this narrative that a green agenda is good for us . Pope francis coming out the way he did to make a statement about it. Individual governments to act is where the difficulty lies. The us and china. Ive been trying to rack my brain and think of any other issue in my lifetime which is of longest consequence and plays out over six a long period, but is held hostage to the short termism that Democratic Politics unfortunately fosters, and the unavoidable outcome of our political systems. I would like to say the greatest example is the Renewable Energy in the us. To get re elected, they promise short term gains, and this is a long term issue. One of the things pope francis has said, his is a moral agenda rather than an economic, but he has said that we cannot put the burn burden of the problems of this generation on the next generation, but who is listening . The Positive Side here, who were taking care of this problem for the next generation is the younger generation. If you look at the participation in madrid, these are the young people. This is a positive sign. This generation of leadership i believe wont do anything. We are talking about Climate Change. But the older generation vote and thatis but the older generation vote and that is the problem. Let me give you an example. Ok, we have wars, now we have flooding on the Arabian Peninsula. Dubai, used to have 20 and 30 years without any rains, and now we have flooding in dubai. The other thing is, we are waiting for a White Christmas here. It could be a very White Christmas, because last year it was snowing there. So snow on the Arabian Peninsula is a very serious problem. We have to look at it and try to find solutions for the next generation, because it is too. While we might be optimistic about the next generation, and that their priorities Climate Change, they are not the ones in power. By the time they rise to player power, this generations leaders if they remain unchecked. Lets see if madrid produces anything more hopeful than the general mood around this table on immediate and short term games that make gains. On that point about young people and voting, that is what we are coming to next. This coming friday, friday the 13th, british voters will awake to discover which of two unpopular leaders they have put in charge of a bitterly divided country. Will it be borisjohnson bitterly divided country. Will it be Boris Johnson with bitterly divided country. Will it be borisjohnson with his vow to get exit one or will it bejeremy corbyn under the banner of for the many not the few. The conservatives are consistently ahead in the polls but the electoral map is hard to read and many hearts and minds are not yet won. Well, no one is in a place to make a prediction. What we can say is that the conservatives have kept a very big advantage, consistently throughout the campaign. Labour has narrowed, in a very small way, that gap. If the opinion polls continue until thursday, on friday the 13th, it is very likely that we will wake up with a conservative government. There have been interesting polls that look at what is happening in constituencies. So, it is a much more granular analysis of electoral behaviour. What we can say for sure is that voters are utterly fed up, not only with leaders, but with politics. This is the third election in four years. That is a lot of elections, and a lot of problems. Brexit has dominated in the United Kingdom and there are a lot of problems. At this point in the year people are gloomy, and the weather is gloomy. There is not a lot of optimism out there. When voters are angry, well, they can behave somewhat who has made tactical gains and tactical mistakes . I follow only on the brexit. Thats what my readers are interested in. With brexit, the only plan is Boris Johnson interested in. With brexit, the only plan is borisjohnson is. It has been negotiated. And if he wins that will ensure in the opinion poll seemed to show, that there will be a clear cut out by january seemed to show, that there will be a clear cut out byjanuary 31 and then a itibss clear cut out byjanuary 31 and then a mass because clear cut out byjanuary 31 and then a itibss because we clear cut out byjanuary 31 and then a mass because we dont know how they will negotiate a trade agreement until the end of the year. It is even more complicated for britain than it was for canada because there are services and you have the parliament all over europe 27 who have to agree. So there may be if he wins with the majority, there may be a framework of a trade deal set. Labour is a nonstarter in brussels because they do not wish to reopen negotiation. And general life in the public does not want a second referendum. This being said, from both point of views on brexit, there is no point, is a point . And were back to where we started. Dont think there have been any questionable blows landed by either side or incredible mistakes by either side. Both are playing it safe. I think jeremy either side. Both are playing it safe. I thinkjeremy corbyn, who likes to point at the polls a couple of years ago when he seemed to be completely going to be buried and then came in better than expected, he no longer has the novelty factor he no longer has the novelty factor he did years ago and now people feel that they know him and those who are behind him will stay behind him and those who have already decided he is not trustworthy will remain in that camp. In the polls, although they have consistently shown this conservatively, we do not trust polls anymore. And that has been true over the last few years on every occasion. It is hard for me to remembera poll every occasion. It is hard for me to remember a poll that accurately predicted anything. So the things i think are still up for grabss and we may wake up on friday with a different configuration. Do you think that labour position has made it difficult to attack the point that mark is making about the long term negotiation still to follow . To be honest, this ambiguity of the labour party makes people not expected improvement in the field because there is no clear cut policy here. But watching the two debate, i believe that we should not underestimate jeremy corbyn. Believe that we should not underestimatejeremy corbyn. I believe, you know, his agenda, his programme is really a lot of concentration on local issues such as Public Services and education. The second thing that i believe is extremely important here, we must remember Hillary Clinton when she used to be ahead 80 of donald trump. And over the last few days, what happened . Trump. And over the last few days, what happened . We woke up to trump being president. So many people here are saying that opinion polls are putting the conservatives ahead. So i would not be surprised if we wake up i would not be surprised if we wake up on the 13th of this month, friday the 13th, with a huge shock. I dont know. But we should not underestimate what is happening. I predict labour liberal democrat coalition. Remember they used to be pa rt coalition. Remember they used to be part of a sort of coalition together. So you say labour liberal democrat. I would say conservative majority, a small one. But the economy, the Labour Programme of overspending is not calculated. But nor is the conservative. But the prospect of new taxes may put people off as a party who advocate that has discovered in the past. You talk about the economy and i think many people vote on pocketbook issues. But when i read the various amount of cove rage but when i read the various amount of coverage in the media about the election and going more granular in terms of looking at constituencies, it is remarkable how much brexit is still on peoples minds, whether it is being fed up that it has not happened because you are relieve voter and you just Want Parliament to get on with it and that is making problems for labour in its usual heartland in the north whereas on the conservative side there are those. It is a generational divide as well. Because younger people look at and will probably vote around brexit but they are also worried about austerity and the fact that they cannot get on the housing ladder, the fact that they are paying a fortune for renting. The fa ct paying a fortune for renting. The fact that they leave university with thousands of pounds in debt. So we will find here, also, this generational divide with older vote rs generational divide with older voters facing different types of problems and younger voters. With not spoken much about the liberal democrats yet. There has been a lot of discussion about mistakes that they have made during the course of their campaign. They have made during the course of theircampaign. I they have made during the course of their campaign. I dont know if anyone has a view. You need a second referendum to create or remain. Was that a strategic error . Honestly, i think that people are sick of brexit because they can see the negative effect on the economy. As henry said, they will vote according to brexit. 0k. As henry said, they will vote according to brexit. Ok. But now they need to solve this problem for ever. Because the side effect of it is disastrous to the country. That is disastrous to the country. That is Boris Johnsons plan. We need another referendum. Because if we do not have a referendum to solve this problem for ever, i think this country will be dismantled. So the people should look at this and try to make up their mind and to, personally, i believe they should stay in the eu. Eunice, only a moment left but eunice spoke about the voters being cynical and tired. What about trust . We have had many promises on all sides in terms of spending. Whose promises to voters believing in terms of trusting them . I dont think voters believe in any promises being made because they have all been broken up to now. So i think people are perhaps letting themselves go with the party that they think may have the best chance to get something done but i dont know, i have not spoken to anyone who feels that any agenda will be fully implemented. We tried the conservatives. Look at the outcome. Sorry. We must leave now. Sorry you did not get time at the end. That is it four dateline london this week. See you next time. Once the overnight rain sweeps through we are still left with Gale Force Winds by the end of the night keeping it on the mild side. There will be a windy day on sunday with sunshine and heavy blustery showers, not too many for eastern parts of england, more frequent out towards the west. Merging at times to give longer spells of rain for northern ireland, western scotland and perhaps the north west of england. Seven degrees is the high for scotla nd seven degrees is the high for scotland and northern ireland, 13 as possible towards the south east of england, tempered by strong and gusty wind. The strongest wind is likely to arrive with the storm during sunday evening, sunday night, especially across wales in the south west of england. Gusts of 70 mile an hour. Gradually the wind eases down a bit on monday with the strongest wind in the showers for a while down the east coast of england. For many places it will be a dry day, on the chilly side but a windy day gradually becomes less windy. Welcome to bbc news, im maryam moshiri. Our top stories the us and iran carry out a prisoner swap, in a rare sign of cooperation between the two countries. A saudi man who shot dead three people in florida is reported to have posted online comments praising osama bin laden. Fears of interference in the uk general election after claims documents detailing uk us trade talks were leaked by russia. Anthonyjoshua regains his world heavyweight titles, beating andy ruiz, the man who took them from him six months ago. Tonight wasjust tonight was just about winning, and trusting my process. I know maybe i could have done more at times, but sometimes simplicity is