Made up your mind yet . Where ever you live, whoever you vote for, one of these two men will be Prime Minister, in a weeks time. Tonight, for the next hour borisjohnson and Jeremy Corbyn will debate the future of our country. Neither mrjonasson or of our country. Neither mrjonasson oer of our country. Neither mrjonasson or mr corbyn will know the questions they are going to face. They have been chosen by the pollsters, who invited people who support both of their parties and others who have yet to decide how to vote. People from all backgrounds, people from all walks of life. They are here to ask their questions to listen to the a nswe is , ask their questions to listen to the answers, to listen to the debate, not to cheer on a team, let alone to boo their opponent, myjob then, is to try and make sure their questions do get answered and this debate is as free and fair as possible. So, apologies gentlemen if i have to interrupt you occasionally, just to make sure this debate is fair, and to make sure that we do make progress through all the questions we wa nt progress through all the questions we want to get through. Both leaders will make opening and closing statements, the order was decided by the toss of a coin. Jeremy corbyn won the toss and elected to go first. Jeremy corbyn, would you give us your Opening Statement please. Labour is ambitious for our country and ambitious for you. I want to build a society where there is real opportunity for all, where everyone feels supportive and secure and where everybody has dignity in old age. There are now four million children living in poverty in our country, people cant get appointments to see their gp. Elderly people cant get the care they need. Millions of families are struggling to pay bills and make ends meet. They need an ambitious government on their side. That will put money in their pocket de, save the nhs, rebuild our public service, deliver free personal care for older people and Free Education for all. Yes, that does mean asking those with the broadest shoulders to pay more in tax, a vote for labour, is a vote for hope, for real change, and for a country that works for the many, not just the few. Thank you. Mrjohnson would you like to make your Opening Statement please. On thursday next week this country reaches a turning point. We can get brexit done, we can end the paralysis, we can transform our country, with massive investments in health, 50,000 more nurse, more funding for every school, 20,000 more police, we can spread opportunity fairly, with fantastic infrastructure, education, and technology. And the only way to unleash the potential of this whole country, is if we get a working majority conservative government. Because the only possible alternative is another Hung Parliament. With Jeremy Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon with an economic agenda that would take this country back decades and two referendums, one on back decades and two referendums, one on scotland, and a second toxic and divisive referendum on the eu. Let us give that nightmare a miss, let us end the chaos, the deadlock, let us end the chaos, the deadlock, let us end the chaos, the deadlock, let us get brexit done with a one nation conservative government and ta ke nation conservative government and take this country forwards. Borisjohnson, take this country forwards. Boris johnson, thank you. Take this country forwards. Borisjohnson, thank you. Let us get on with our question, almost no rule, questions will be posed by the audience, both member will get the chancellor to answer them and debate their answers, as well. Ourfirst question tonight comes from john purcell. Is sirjohn majors crept intervention worrying to you mr johnson and mr blairs to you mr corbyn . Will these make any difference to the result of the general election or are they just difference to the result of the general election or are theyjust a couple of old has beens . So the question, the fact that bothjohn major, yourformer question, the fact that bothjohn major, your former leader and tony blair, yourformer major, your former leader and tony blair, your former leader have suggested that voters should consider voting for other parties and not giving you the majority you seek. Borisjohnson, and not giving you the majority you seek. Boris johnson, your and not giving you the majority you seek. Borisjohnson, your answer to mr purcell please. Mr purcell, i have the utmost respect for all former conservative leaders and dont wish to den row gate anybody asa dont wish to den row gate anybody as a has been but i dont think he is right. We have a fantastic plan to get brexit done, it is ready to go, we can get it done by christmas, get it back in to parliament by christmas if we have a majority conservative government, and all, i mean, unlike mr major, i lead a party that is now totally united. All 630 plus conservative candidates at this election back my deal. Totally united because you got rid of any you didnt agree with. We have a Broad Spectrum of views but they back the deal. The mystery is what is the position of the leader of the opposition on this subject . I have yet to hear that the deal is he wants to achieve and whether he backs itself himself. The question was should you be worried about tony blair saying to people, dont necessarily vote labour. The issue coming up on thursday is the future of this country. Are we going to continue with this level of inequality, of poverty among our children, of underfunding of schools and a threat to our National Health service, and a no deal brexit which the Prime Minister is threatening us with, or a trade deal with donald trump and the usa which will damage oui trump and the usa which will damage our Public Services, a vote for labour is a vote to end austerity, a vote for labour is to invest in a future of this country and so, Tony Blairand future of this country and so, tony blair and john major are welcome to make the comments they do. I urge them to think for a moment, think for a moment, at the reality of what nine years of austerity has done to the people of this country. What happened do your party that the most successful labour Prime Minister in history cannot back you to move into number ten . I am fighting this election to win it, to win it on our ma nifesto, election to win it, to win it on our manifesto, to win it on our ma nifesto manifesto, to win it on our manifesto which i believe will bring real hope to those people that have been denied it during these years of austerity. Isnt the tomahawk missile many voters think there is an impossible choice, they dont wa nt an impossible choice, they dont want either of you in number ten . |j hope very much people will vote for a one nation conservative government and get brexit done, i think if you look at our agenda, it is positive, programme si, it will unite the country, involve massive investment in Public Services and take us forward. Our government will empower people, not leave anybody behind. That is the whole principle, the golden thread that runs through the ma nifesto. Golden thread that runs through the manifesto. Let us turn to brexit. It has been raised many times already. On this question, we will take two questions, one from a leave voter, one from a remain voter, first of all von who voted leave please. Brexit has taken up so much time already. People are fed up. Can you guarantee that it will happen next year. Can you guarantee it will happen next year. Tom clark who voted remain. How would we be better off from the brexit deal or a labour deal compared to what we have as a memberof the deal compared to what we have as a member of the eu . Thank you. The first question, can you guarantee that brexit will happen next year . Jeremy corbyn . What i can guarantee is we will bring an end to this debate and have a final say for the people of this country. We cant go on forever saying we represent the 48 or the 52, i want to lead a government that represents the whole country, and the whole community, so we will, within three months negotiate a leave agreement with the european union, that will protect trade and jobs, and the Peace Process in Northern Ireland. And put that alongside remain, in a referendum, within six months and that will be the end of the matter. My that will be the end of the matter. My role as the leader of my party, as the Prime Minister, would be to ensure that decision is carried out whatever it is. But nobody voted to lose theirjob, or to lose trade with europe. People voted for many reasons but i think we have got to come together, and bring this issue to an end. Not go down the road of sweetheart deals with the usa. To an end. Not go down the road of sweetheart deals with the usai share the frustration to get brexit done, and what we can do with the deal that we have is get it done by january 31st and come out and then to get to the question about the advantages we can do such things as improve standards for Animal Welfare , improve standards for Animal Welfare, ban live export of animals, cut vat on tampons, do things to create free ports round the country. There are all sorts of ways we can regulate differently and better, we can control our immigration system for the first time. What i havent heard from the leader of the labour party is this deal that he thinks he can get in three months time, who is going to negotiate it, because as farasi is going to negotiate it, because as faras i can is going to negotiate it, because as far as i can see, everybody on the labour front bench is campaigning to remain, apart from mr corbyn who is neutral on the matter, who is going to secure these deal . How can you get a deal, a new deal from brussels for brexit if you dont believe in it . That is the mystery i fail to understand. How you going to deal with it if you dont really believe in it. The rest say they are remains. We get a deal to ensure whatever the outcome of the final vote the trade relationship continues with europe. If you go down the road it will take seven yea rs down the road it will take seven years to negotiate a trade deal with the usa, you will have queues all up the usa, you will have queues all up the m20 in kent, you will have a problem of supply chain, to all of our Manufacturing Industry, you are going to havejob our Manufacturing Industry, you are going to have job losses on a huge scale. Nonsense he says. Unless you have a serious deal with the eu to maintain that trade relationship. We have a deal. It is a wonderful deal. We are coming out onjanuary 31st if we can get a working majority and listening to mr corbyn, it is clear what would happen next year is there would be a period of negotiation about this mystery deal led by somebody in the labour party we cant identify because he doesnt believe in the deal himself, it would be put to another referendum, to the people of this country, parliament our country, would spend a whole year or more, probably more, wracked, locked in debate about brexit, when what people want to do is move on, and focus on the issues facing the people. Jeremy corbyn. They will spend seven years negotiating with the usa on public service, the access to the National Health service, he knows he cant get a quick deal because of the way the political system works, he will walk out of a relationship with the eu intoa walk out of a relationship with the eu into a relationship with nobody. And that is where the chaos will come. What is your answer to that . I have to say that shows a slight ignorance of the reality, which is that as we leave the eu, we are coming out, with our deal, with a state of perfect equivalence, zero star riffs, quota, we will be able to begin putting in a australian style points system for immigration, taking back control of laws and money. He asked you about trade. Not just with countries round the world, but we will do a fantastic deal with the eu, and with the us. Can we be clear you again and again say get brexit done. That right. You havent done a trade deal with the eu. You dont know you can do a trade deal with the eu. You dont know there wont be no deal on trade with the eu, do you you . On the contrary we have fantastic deal. It is there ready to go. Not on trade. You dont have a trade deal. What our deal allows is for british businesses of allows is for british businesses of all kinds to have perfect confidence in the way we leave the eu but a we are ina in the way we leave the eu but a we are in a state of equivalence with zero quota, exact framework and we have ample time to get on, and build a new free trade partnership, not just with the eu but with countries round the world and the great beauty of this deal is it gets brexit done, gets it out of parliament. Stops the wrangling and moves us forward. Jeremy corbyn. He will spend years negotiating with the usa. He will spend years ruing the fact he didnt reach a proper agreement with the eu before leaving. As the documents we have shown today indicate he hasnt been straightforward on the issues surrounding trade with Northern Ireland, and the republic of ireland. So, ido ireland, and the republic of ireland. So, i do think we need a bit of openness from the government, we forced them to release the document, we released them for them actually a week ago, which showed the access the us were demanding to Public Services and today, the news came out of what is happening with Northern Ireland, and. Briefly for people who didnt hear the news what do you claim the documents show . They show there are going to be charges, there are going to be customs check, restrictions on trade between britain and Northern Ireland. Thank you. Boris johnson. That is not true. The whole of the uk comes out, england scotland wales Northern Ireland, we do free trade deals together. Northern ireland is pa rt of deals together. Northern ireland is part of the customs territory of the uk and we are united. I have to say i think it is a great opportunity for our country, and it says unfettered access is what it says. It say understand fettered access. That is what we want. One at a time. What the document also says, is that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory. Isnt the problem is that the dup, the unionist they agree with him and not you. They dont. Our deal is a great deal. Let me make one point. Ifind it slightly curious to say the least to be lectured about the union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland bya man Great Britain and Northern Ireland by a man who has campaigned to break up by a man who has campaigned to break up that union and supported for four decades the ira in their campaign, violently, decades the ira in their campaign, viole ntly, viole ntly, decades the ira in their campaign, violently, violently, to destroy it. I must say i find it a curiosity. What do you say to that how about the Prime Minister showing a degree of honesty about the arrangement he has made the Northern Ireland. He spoke at the dup conference and said there would be no restriction whatsoever. He should an could have said that at the time. So it is a question of openness on all of this. He says youve supported people opposed to the union your whole life . I have always wanted to see a Peace Process in Northern Ireland and that is exactly what we have got and that is exactly what we have got an thank you to the Labour Government who negotiated it after 1997. Thank you. There was a second question, i want to give you a chance, tom clarke ask you, mr johnson, how will we be better off from the brexit deal, or a future labour deal, compared to being in the eu . Thank you for that, there will be all sorts of ways. I have mentioned the ways we can cut vat on products or regulate different tree differently for bioscience or have free ports in areas that need investment, we can trigger investment, we can trigger investment in some of the left behind coastal communities by having free ports, is 130 countries do around the world, we cant, because of eu rules. Another major advantage is, course, we take back control of ofa is, course, we take back control of of a lot of the money which we would otherwise ascend to the eu. But i might mention also our ability to control our immigration, which is not unimportant. I am a believer in immigration, people of talent, who wa nt immigration, people of talent, who want to come here, fantastic, but we have got to control it democratically. Jeremy corbyn, how will we be better off from brexit, your answer, if you have your deal, or indeed, and you go to a referendum and we do leave . Because we will make sure that ourjobs and all Manufacturing Industries are able to continue trading. Over half of our trade is with europe in the present time. Walk away from that, put upa present time. Walk away from that, put up a barrier on that, and weve got real problems for Manufacturing Industry jobs got real problems for Manufacturing Industryjobs all got real problems for Manufacturing Industry jobs all across got real problems for Manufacturing Industryjobs all across the country. Many jobs have industryjobs all across the country. Manyjobs have already been lost because of the uncertainty surrounding all this. We have to deal with this within six months. The Prime Ministers of a trade deal with the usa, which would take at least, in their estimation, seven yea rs least, in their estimation, seven years to negotiate, means seven yea rs of years to negotiate, means seven years of complete uncertainty and continue tojob years of complete uncertainty and continue to job losses in Manufacturing Industry. You have been asked by borisjohnson, i want to give you the chance to answer it, why you wont say where you stand on brexit, is it that you dont know what you think on brexit or that you do know but you wont tell us . M what you think on brexit or that you do know but you wont tell us . It is because i think the country has to come together, we cannot keep arguing about 48 versus 52, it has to be an agreement we can reach with the eu which is credible and maintains that trade relationship, outside of eu membership, all with full memm ship of the eu. It is a way of bringing people together, and a government which implements that decision, whatever it is. You cannot end the uncertainty on brexit if you dont know what the deal is that you wa nt dont know what the deal is that you want to do. I negotiated our deal, you cannot negotiate a deal if youre neutral on it, it is absolutely inconceivable. And i am afraid to say i think it is a failure of leadership not to have a position on the greatest issue facing this country at the moment. You cannot get a good deal for this country if you dont believe it and i want people to understand how mr corbyn proposes to negotiate a deal. We have put that to him and he has had the chance to respond, so, lets move on to the National Health service. I have got another question. Thank you. I am returning to my nursing post next april. It costs a lot to train as a nurse, but the starting salary is low. How would you deal with the shortage of nurses and ensure the nhs can retain them . Faith, who is a student nurse, says, how would you deal with the shortage of nurses, to make sure that the nhs can retain them . Boris johnson . Faith, thank you very much for what youre doing, and i believe passionately we need more nurses in the nhs, ive been in office for about 130 days and everything i have seen convinces me this is now the time to invest massively in our nhs, so what were doing is putting the biggest cash boost, £34 billion, 50,000 more nurses, and i shall unpack that, because people complain about it, but it means retaining the 19,000 who might otherwise drop out of the service, and then recruiting another 31,000 new nurses, of the service, and then recruiting another31,000 new nurses, plus, were bringing back the £5,000 bursary. One thing that were doing which i think is sensible and which our australian style points based syste m our australian style points based system allows us to do, is to encourage nurses from overseas to come, to fill some of the gaps, by shortening the time for their visa application. Now, what i think is totally in country had civil is to have a system where you try to get more nurses and more staff into the nhs but simultaneously ask the whole of the Public Sector to work a four day week. Of the Public Sector to work a fourday week. Thank you very much. That would be bad for the nhs. Just a reminder of the question, faith says, how would you deal with the shortage of nurses and ensure the nhs can maintain them . Welcome as massive 43,000 vacancies at the present time, it was a conservative government who cut the nurses bursary, it was the coalition with the liberal democrats which increased to student fees to £9,000 per year, and that is a major contributory factor to the stress levels which exist in our nhs. It is at breaking point, it is at crisis point, go to any a e department and you will see that. What we would do is End University fees, which will mean more people will go into studying. We will return the nurse bursary, probably on a more generous scale than it was in the past. And we will recruit as rapidly as we possibly can. But crucially, we will fund the nhs possibly, £40 billion in total will go into the nhs in order to fund it properly. And that has to be done. The Prime Minister, the day after he was appointed, announced there was going to be 40 new hospitals, a week later that became 20, a bit later on it became six new hospitals. He seems to have a problem with the figures about Hospital Building in britain. Applause. Perhaps i could elucidate mr corbyn, who has a problem with his brexit policy. But the. The reality is that we have a very clear agenda, which is to upgrade a 20 hospitals, to build 40 new ones, it is perfectly true that the cash allocation for the whole hospital bill is for six initially, but we are putting on the funding now so that we can get the architecture plans and the Business Case done, so that in ten years time, as a result of the decisions taken in the last 130 days by this government, there will be 40 new hospitals. What is one with that, mr corbyn . What is wrong with that is, 12 hours or 15 hours after being appointed Prime Minister, he came to parliament and grandly announced 40 new hospitals, it turned out they werent. That was when he was asked where they were going to be, and then it was reduced to 20, and then it became seed funding for six. It is not credible to make those kind of statements and not to be able to back it up with any serious plan. Mrjohnson ask you, is it credible to say you will deal with nursing shortages while agreeing to a four day week, which will surely make the shortage is worse . We have said that we want to see the working week come down. The average working week across the country is 38 hours, and we achieve bringing it down by improving productivity in industries and services. There is no plan to bring ina services. There is no plan to bring in a four day week in the nhs but there is a plan to properly invest in our nhs because im fed up with seeing people queueing and waiting and being in desperate straits trying to get an appointment to see agporto trying to get an appointment to see a gp orto go trying to get an appointment to see a gp or to go into hospital. This johnson . John mcdonnell said very clearly that there was a plan for a four day working week, and it is not clear why mr corbyn has gone back from that tonight. But what i will say is that we will invest massively in the nhs, this is a new government, a very ambitious government, a very ambitious government, i want to see more funding going into our Public Services, were levelling up funding of education in schools around the country, 20,000 more police, but we can only do that by having a Strong Economy. Youre not going to like this but the only way we can have a Strong Economy is if we move this country Strong Economy is if we move this cou ntry forward Strong Economy is if we move this country forward and get brexit done. I willjust country forward and get brexit done. I will just remind country forward and get brexit done. I willjust remind you of one thing, one report which came out the other day, there is £150 billion worth of investment waiting to come into this country, if we can get my deal across the line. Thank you, Boris Johnson. Forgive me, interrupting. Mr corbyns two referendums. Johnson. Forgive me, interrupting. Mr corbyns two referendums. Ij johnson. Forgive me, interrupting. Mr corbyns two referendums. I am keeping a close eye on the time, and you have had rather a lot, lister johnson. The conservatives and the liberal democrats passed a health and social care act in 2010 which has led to £10 billion of private sector involvement in the nhs, with often different wage structures and difficulty in management. Labour will end the privatisation of the nhs and return it to what it was a lwa ys nhs and return it to what it was always intended to be, a fully funded, fully functioning, Public Health service in this country. You will end privatisation, you say, are you still claiming, then, the nhs is up you still claiming, then, the nhs is upfor you still claiming, then, the nhs is up for sale . Because your document doesnt seem to show any such thing . Well, read the documents that were discussed in secret and the government refused to release them, between themselves and the us administration, about access to Public Services and the extension of the life of patents on medicines which would increase medicine costs in this country. President trump has said many times, people pay too little for us medicines around the world. That is the kind of agenda the Prime Minister wants to get involved with, thats the kind of deal theyre trying to make with the usa. Boris johnson, he says you want to sell the nhs . This is pure Bermuda Triangle stuff, we have heard it time and time again from the labour party during this election campaign. We will be hearing about little green men. I believe very passionately in. I use the nhs, i love it, it is one of the most incredible things about this country, it is admired around the world, the central idea that if any of us get sick, all of us take ca re of any of us get sick, all of us take care of them. It is a fantastic thing. We believe in an nhs free at the point of use and under no circumstances will we sell it off to anybody in any kind of trade deal. You dont dispute, though, what he has quoted, which is that american trade negotiators say they want more access to the nhs . And ive made it absolutely clear to everybody that under no circumstances will that happen. The biggest privatisation of the nhs, of course, took place under the nhs, of course, took place under the last Labour Government. Which put in the ruinous pfi system, and i have gone around many hospitals talking to fantastic staff and management there who are bearing the burden of that. People now have to deal with that. Your party opposed the formation of the nhs in the first place. Well if youre going back to 1940, you know. I know you have a good memory for politics, jeremy. It is factually so, but the more important thing is that your party has presided over cuts in our nhs, increased waiting times and waiting lists, a Record Number of people delayed in getting appointments and a social care system that is in crisis. It is time. And there are 50,000 more nurses now than they were under the labour party, and that is because we have had a Strong Economy which has enabled us to make investment, and we are now going to step those investments up because we believe passionately in the nhs and the way to take this country forward and get it moving is to get rid of the blockade in parliament, get brexit done and move on. With a one nation conservative government. 43,000 nurse vacancies, that is the fact. Understood. You send an e mail on behalf of the labour party saying, imagining opening a five figure bill for your Cancer Treatment. Do you accept that that is totally misleading, there is no possibility of anybody having nhs Cancer Treatment and having to pay a five figure number . If you end up with a privatised service, with that us trade deal, that is what you would get. The Prime Minister says he is not going to do that sort of a trade deal, if that is the case, why did the talks go on for two years . It doesnt take two years to say no to privatisation of the nhs. Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed. We have got lots of questions to get through, i want to give you the chance to move on. One or two of them we are going to make rather quicker than the rest. I will come to one of those in a second. You can join in this debate of course on social media. And before we return to one of our longer questions, we have got an interesting one here from somebody who has written in, and sayswhich has the better track record of raising the standards, the Living Standards of the poor, socialism or capitalism . Living standards of the poor, socialism or capitalism . Jeremy corbyn . Socialism, carried out in a democratic way, in this country, in scandinavia, and other places, has raised the Living Standards of the very poorest. And it was the post war Labour Government that did massively to improve the Living Standards of the poorest working class communities in this country. And our Labour Government will do the same again. And i would say that it is one nation conservatism which understands the importance of a Dynamic Market economy as the only way in which you can pay for fantastic Public Services and for looking after the poorest and most needy in our society. That is the balance and symmetry at the heart of what i am trying to achieve with this government. And i think that to attack capitalism, which mr corbyn and mr mcdonnell do, is absolutely senseless. By the way, to continue to attack all free trade is, i would say, ignorant of the facts. Just to be clear, you think he wants to destroy capitalism . Be clear, you think he wants to destroy capitalism . John mcdonnell, who is the shadow chancellor, and some would say the intellectual driving force behind this type of socialism, is committed, he says, to fermenting the overthrow of capitalism. I think that is a mistake, i dont think that is the right way forward for our country. I believe in supporting businesses, i believe in supporting businesses, i believe in supporting businesses, i believe in cutting Business Rates the. Jeremy corbyn . One where you dont leave people behind, you dont ignore the fact that 4 million of our children are living in poverty, you dont ignore the fact that there are thousands of people sleeping on the streets of this country, the fifth richest country in the world. The inequality has got worse, 150 billionaires in britain, more poor people than ever, that cant be right. Moving on. Both will have the chance to talk at greater length. Andrew has our next question. Both you say if you are asked to form a government next week you will spend, spend, spend, making your plans seem like a going to pay for everything that you are promising . Thank you. Spend, spend, spend, he says you are both going to do, gentleman, men he wants to know how both of you are going to pay or rather we are . Thank you very much andrew. We will certainly be making big investment in the nhs, in put morgue police on the street, in lifting up our Education Funding for every school in the country. We will continue 0 with that. What we wont do is borrow hugely to fund day to day investment. And that is the mistake that the labour party would make, they would rack up debt, they would put up spending to 1. 2 trillion, to answer your question, what that would mean is a tax burden of £2400 per taxpayer. You hear from labour sometimes the burden, i think mr corbyn said it it will fall on the billionaires or the top 5 , actually people on as little as £20,000 a year, under their plan also be paying £1,000 a year more in tax. He said people who are not rich will pay for the plans. We are clear about that, we are the only party that has produced a fully costed ma nifesto that has produced a fully costed manifesto with a book that adds up to every expenditure we want. The problem with the country is we are gone too far down the road of free market economic, we have created too much inequality, if every bit of the ma nifesto much inequality, if every bit of the manifesto was carried out tomorrow we would just about reach the level of the Public Services of france or germany. That is how far backwards we have gone. There has to be investment in school, why are so many children in oversized classes . Why are so many growing up in insecure housing, because there is enough Council Housing available. Why are so many people waiting for social care. Who do so many people in middle age have to go into debt to for their kids to go into university and their parents in social care. It is time to invest in the future. I agree, the difference between us, is his plans and as i say we will be making substantial investment in the fiscal head room we have, while bearing down on our debt over the life of the parliament we wont rack up such debts the markets demand a higher interest rate, and you end up with huge tax burdens falling on everybody else. Labour always ends their time in office with an economic crisis, corbyn and mcdonnell, they would start their time corbyn and mcdonnell, they would start theirtime in corbyn and mcdonnell, they would start their time in office with an economic crisis. He says that all of us will pay more in our taxes not just the rich. The independent thinks like the independent fiscal studies agree. They dont. Clearly not true they said of your claim only the top 5 of earners would pay more . They questioned some aspects of the programme and we are happy to discuss that with them. We are the party that produced the funding of it. The conservative party have produced nothing in the way of how they are going to pay for anything they are going to pay for anything they suggest they are doing other than tax cut, it is hard to see how you can expand services if you are cutting the income base of government in the first place. That isafir government in the first place. That is a fir question. There has to be investment to deal with inequality. How do you pretend to cut taxes and pay for more. Labour didnt produce the funding for anything. It is the ha rd the funding for anything. It is the hard work of the british people, and it is the, british companies, it is british businesses, large and small, that produce the funding that pays for our National Health service and everything else. We are a government that understands that if you are going to have a Dynamic Market economy you cant clobber them, you cant clobber companies with the highest taxes in europe, which is what mr corbyn and the labour party would do, it would be entirely wrong for this country to go down the route they are proposing. |j for this country to go down the route they are proposing. I quoted the ifs at mr corbyn. They say your prospectus, they say it is not credible. They say you havent said how you would pay for social care or future tax cuts. On the contrary, our programme is fully costed and in the manifesto. It is a Great Programme and the one other advantage that we have, apart from not wrecking the economy, and not having a fiscal meltdown which is what labour always do, putting up taxes for everybody. We would get our country moving forwards again, by getting brexit done. And the economic drag anchor of brexit on this country should not be underestimated. It is stopping invest. It means people are uncertain about making purchases about taking on newjob, it is holding the government back. They say they look after the very rich nest the society. They have done very very well, in the years of austerity, while it is communities all over the country that have paid for it, with closed library, closed swimming pools, out of reach pricing, on sports facility, lack of housing, increased stress, increased Mental Health stress. We have to redress the imbalances within society. And our tax proposals for Corporation Tax would be to raise it to 26 at the end of the first period of that Labour Government. Which would be lower than it was in 2010, lower than it is in france, lower than in the usa, what we are proposing is a serious set of plans, in in orderto proposing is a serious set of plans, in in order to start addressing the imbalances within society. I think it is important do that. His claim is basically that labour would bring us into line with many countries in europe. I think it is incredible he should claim that people on £20,000 a year are among the richest in society, and therefore deserve to be clobbered by his tax increases, i think that is totally wrong, the burden of taxation always falls most hely on those on modest and low income, that is what will happen, if labour are allowed to get in. That is because you have taken the burden off the richest. It would lead to an Economic Disaster and worse still it would lead to the political stalemate. The frustration for business that wants to get on, the uncertainty of not knowing what the position on brexit is. We still havent heard from him, the debate has been running for 35 minutes whether he is in favour of the deal he was about to do end how he would negotiate. Business Organisation Tell me they cant stand the u nseve nty of tell me they cant stand the unseventy of the government, they cant stand the idea of a no deal brexit. They want to continue that trade and continue thatjust in time Delivery System that is so important in Manufacturing Industry. And they are constantly concerned at the lack of understanding of how industry works, from a conservative government that claims to be in support of those industries. What he said to you mr corbyn, i want to give you the chance is that businesses, even ones in favour of remain want certainty, that i want to get it done, what is your answer . With us you will get a deal, which would be leave, but leave with a trade arrangement, or you get remain which will obviously carry on the current situation, but they would have the certainty of knowing what the trade relationship is, where the investment is going to come from and where the market is for the goods that are made in this country, it is kind of important to know those things. Thank you very much gentlemen. Very briefly. |j things. Thank you very much gentlemen. Very briefly. I think it is important to those those things but it is unclear what that deal would be, what mr corbyn proposes to leave and who in his party proposes to campaign for the deal he is going to campaign for the deal he is going to make. You have made that point well earlier on. Another very important subject given the events of recent days, the issue of security. The question comes from richard. Your most important responsibility if you become Prime Minister will be to keep us safe. Given the terror attacks with resign on the streets of london, are you prepared to put Public Safety ahead of human rights . It is not an either or, you have to keep the public safe, you have to ensure that the police are there and properly funded, you have to ensure the prison system works and is effective, that the parole board works and is effective. The Probation Service works and is effective. You have to give people that security. You dont get security on the cheap, you have to invest in it. Human rights are our defence against autocracy and our defence against autocracy and our defence against autocracy and our defence against abuse of power, there is no difference between wanting security and human rights, the two things are linked together. Borisjohnson . The two things are linked together. Boris johnson . Yes, welll see no reason to compromise peoples human rights such as the perpetrator of the atrocious killings at london bridge, but i do think that it was extraordinary and wrong that he should be out on Early Release, and automatic Early Release, and i said long before i became Prime Minister we needed to campaign against short sentence, i said in ought we should get rid of automatic Early Release, i have been very sad to see this guy out on the streets, able to do what he did and we have a bill waiting to go, stuck because of the blockade in parliament, if we can get a working majority, we can get rid of automatic Early Release and make sure for serious sexual and violent offenders sand make sure that terrorist, people who are cob victimed of terrorist offences serve their full sentence. I think that is what this country would expect. What is wrong, mr corbyn with the idea, put that point and i will come back, what is wrong with the idea that borisjohnson what is wrong with the idea that Boris Johnson spells what is wrong with the idea that borisjohnson spells out what is wrong with the idea that Boris Johnson spells out there, what is wrong with the idea that borisjohnson spells out there, that terrorist, particularly terrorists should serve the full sentence. You have to run a prison system and judicial system in a proper way, you have to have a prison system that works. 0ne have to have a prison system that works. One day, pretty well all prisoners are going to come out at some point. If you dont run a prison system that includes rehabilitation and you dont is a proper assessment of people before they are given any form of Early Release and proper review of the cases then there is a danger to all of us, so what happened on the streets of london was utterly appalling and i was very moved by what Jack Merritts father said about what his son was trying to do. That he wanted a society where you did address the huge problems, where somebody committed awful acts like that, yes, of course you must imprison them, yes, of course you must try and rehabilitate them if you can, but there has to be a monitoring process to achieve that. We need the security on our streets, security doesnt come on the cheap, and if you cut the number of police officer, cut the pcso, privatise the Probation Service, underfund all the aspects of the criminalJustice System we all pay a price with our own security. Mrjohnson would you feel dir of all please Jack Merritts father did say jack lived and in the end Probation Service, underfund all the aspects of the criminal Justice System underfund all the aspects of the criminalJustice System we all pay a price with our own security. Mr johnson would you feel dir of all please Jack Merritts father did say jack lived and in the end died for a society where we do not lock up and throw away the key. Where we focus on rehabilitation, and not revenge. Of course, and i have huge sympathy for of course, and i have huge sympathy foer of course, and i have huge sympathy for mr merritt and the relative, families of both victims and it was a terrible thing, but i still think it is wrong that somebody like usman khan, sentenced to 21 years or 16 years plus five on license, should have been out automatically on eight years, after eight years when the judge when he was first convicted, made it clear that he was a very serious jihadi made it clear that he was a very seriousjihadi and a risk to Public Safety, and under our government, under my government, of course we wont want to be compromising peoples human rights, of course we wont but we must put Public Safety first. The it was the courts that quashed that. Automatic Early Release is unreasonable. Could you address the point that you have decimated the Probation Service, the Prison Service as well, many thousands fewer prison officers, and the Probation Service as well, as well as Police Officers during the era of austerity. Nick, just on a small point of fact, there was no pa role small point of fact, there was no parole or probation involved in this, he was released automatically but your point, and there was nothing that any parole board or probation officer could do about that. That was the nature of the sentence, but there is a valid question about how now we make sure that we have a criminaljustice syste m that we have a criminalJustice System that protects everybody and delivers justice. We system that protects everybody and deliversjustice. We are going to get a rare moment of agreement. We are putting a huge amount of cash into the criminalJustice System. I believe it should run smoothly, and we are putting another 2. 5 billion into our prison system. You can only do that you have a Strong Economy. We have seriously overcrowded prisons, we have lost prison officers, the first thing that goes is education, the next thing that goes is rehabilitation, the next thing is medical support and so on, so you end up, with a breeding ground for all the horrors of the future. If we go down that road, we all pay a price, so i am simply saying this, let us invest in our prison system, invest in rehabilitation, invest crucially, in Probation Service that works, it was. It was privatised bier this government. I want to make sure you are answering the point. He said in this particular case, it was not about resource, it was not about the pa role about resource, it was not about the parole board or probation he said, it was about stepses, you are opposed to the change he wants to make. So why . There should be a review of the individual prisoner before release is countenanced. That i think is clear, and that is why i asked for a role for the parole board as well as the Probation Service in this, because, listen what happened was unbelievably appalling, and therefore we have to keep people safe and secure, but you dont do that by under investing in rehabilitation programmes as well for all. With Great Respect, mr corbyn throughout his career has consistently opposed a longer sentences, and when you look at mi5, the body that keeps us safe, particularly from terror attacks, he is proposing to put in a home secretary in the form of diane abbott, who has called for mi5 to be disbanded. Mr corbyn, with Great Respect to him, when you look at the huge issues of safety on the public streets, knife crime, you have a labour party that is adamantly sceptical and opposed to stop and search, which i believe is an integral part of fighting crime on our streets, and we are not only going to put 20,000 more officers on the streets of london, on the streets of this country, were going to fight crime and we are going to back the police up. This is from a government which cut the police force by such massive numbers, privatised our Probation Service and got rid of all of our pcsos, in many parts of the country. Forgive me, mr corbyn, you made the point about cuts, his point to you is that your home secretary, diane abbott, wants to, he claims, orwanted in the home secretary, diane abbott, wants to, he claims, or wanted in the past at least, to disband m15. There are no plans whatsoever to disband mis orany no plans whatsoever to disband mis or any other part of the security services. There are plans to invest properly in our police and security services. And when you live and represent an area like mine, where somebody was murdered on the streets byafar somebody was murdered on the streets by a far right terrorist attack on an individual, you realise how horrific that is for the community and how dangerous that is for all of us. Yes, we do need to invest in all of our services, and that will help to make us all a lot safer. Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed. Let us move on now to another question. From accusations of islamophobia and anti semitism in major parties, to threats against female mps, what would you do to get the hate out of politics . What would you do to get the hate out of politics . And he mentions islamophobia, anti semitism and the threat against female mps. Boris johnson, i am going to ask both of you to address problems in your own parties to begin with, of course, you might want to make points about other parties. Well, toby, i think you are making a very important point and everybody feels it at the moment, this is a very rough time in politics, theres a a lot of feeling at the moment, and i think on prejudice, islamophobia, anti semitism, what were doing in our party is having an independent inquiries into anybody who is guilty of any such offence, and they are out first bounce if they are guilty. And when it comes to the protection, particularly of female mps, and of women in politics, it is vital that we give them the security that they need. And we are doing a huge amount in the house of commons to deliver that. What we need to do, we need to come together as a country. Weve been going at this for too long, and one of the things, i am afraid this is my key point tonight, dispatching us of politics, the bitterness, the acrimony, is a function of our inability to get brexit done. On the specific point of islamophobia that we had one task we can do it and we will, we can be out on 31st january and end what i think is misery for the country. On the specific point about islamophobia, before i turn to mr corbyn on anti semitism, you say people come out on first bounce, but you have candidates who have retreated Tommy Robinson talking about, quotes, muslim paedophiles, and a formerchairof about, quotes, muslim paedophiles, and a former chair of the conservative party says, we have a serious and deeper problem with islamophobia . Very quickly, all those candidates have either apologised or are now subject to investigation. And, you know, i dont want to unnecessarily draw comparisons with the labour party, but i do think it is extraordinary that in this election, weve heard for the first time in history the chief rabbi saying that he fears for his community in this country, were mr corbyn to be elected, and think i it is an extraordinary state of affairs. It is extraordinary, isnt it, that the leader of a religious Community Needs to warn people about your party . Antisemitism is wrong and totally your party . Antisemitism is wrong a nd totally u na cce pta ble your party . Antisemitism is wrong and totally unacceptable in our country, in all parties, in our political life, and the history of the awful treatment of people in the 19 century in germany indicates exactly where that kind of language leads us to, there is no place for its whatsoever in our party and our society and there never will be, as far as society and there never will be, as farasi society and there never will be, as faras i am society and there never will be, as far as i am concerned. What have jewish member is of the labour party say is, if this was black or asian people who were victims of racism, you would listen to them, but when jews say that your party under your leadership is infected with anti jewish hatred, you say, i know better. I dont know better than anybody, i listen to people and amend, if necessary, the rules and processes. Amend, if necessary, the rules and processes. I am the leader that introduced an investigation process, a disciplinary process, a process of education, a process for dealing with egregious cases, and, yes, we have suspended or expelled members where we have found them guilty of anti semitic behaviour, as indeed other parties have done the same. But there are problems of islamophobia within our society also, as you quite rightly drew attention to, and there are problems of language that is used. I do not ever use racist language in any form to describe anybody in this world or in our society. Lets be clear, youre saying that he does. We treat people with respect terrible youre saying that he does . I think he is clearly saying, mrjohnson, if you wa nt to clearly saying, mrjohnson, if you want to reply. I missed that but let me respond by saying that i think that mr corbyn im sure is very well intentioned, but i think that in his handling of this particular issue, his unwillingness to take a stand, to stand up for jewish people in the labour party, his unwillingness to protect them, to put an arm around them, is in my view a failure of leadership. You cannot be neutral on questions like this anymore, in my view, than you can try to lead this country and be neutral on the of brexit. And it is a failure to take a stand, to have a point of view, that in the end will cost this country gravely and deeply. And i dont want to waste another year, next year, and more, in vacillation and confusion about what sort of position of mr corbyn is willing to take, what sort of leadership hes. Is willing to take, what sort of leadership hes. Failure of leadership hes. Failure of leadership is when you use racist remarks to describe people in Different Countries or in our society. I will never do that i might party will never do that. Jeremy corbyn, he makes a point that one way to take eight more generally out of politics, he argues, is to sort this brexit row out because it is infecting our politics, whatever your view is of brexit, do you agree with that . Of course there has to be a solution to it. What is your solution . Well, i have made that quite clear, im not sure if you have been. I dont know what it is. The point is, about the cohesion of our society, i hope the Prime Minister understands the hurt that people feel when they hear remarks and articles that hes written in the past, i hope he will regret those, and i hope he will understand the importance of all of us using respectful language of all faiths, all religions and all languages in what is a multicultural society, which im proud to live in. Sorry to enter up but we have got a couple more questions which we want to get through if we have got time. Our next question, please. In the era of fa ke next question, please. In the era of fake news, what punishment do you think appropriate for elected politicians politicians who lie during political campaigns . What punishment is appropriate for elected politicians who lie during political campaigns . Boris johnson . Well, they should be made to go on their knees to. Down the. Through the chamber of the house of commons, scourging themselves with copies of their offending documents which claim to prove one thing and actually proved something quite different. Jeremy corbyn . I think its important that people go into an election campaign, they put forward a policy of what theyre going to do, a policy of how bag going to do, a policy of how bag going to do, a policy of how bag going to pay for it, and if they dont deliver, then there is a democratic process to deal with that in the future. That is what democracy is about, its about Holding People to account. And Holding People to account. And Holding Government to account in parliament, and i want to see not a weakened that a stronger house of commons in the future, that holds our government to account, to make sure we deliver on the promises of reducing poverty in britain. Boris johnson, does it worry you that a leading british diplomat has resigned today saying that she would no longer want to peddle half truths on behalf of a government i no longer trust . |j half truths on behalf of a government i no longer trust . I do not know who you are referring to but what it shows to me is that we need to move on as a country because there are plenty of people who are irreconcilable opposed to brexit and i think that actually what we should do is respect the will of the people, people talk about trust in politics, look at the promises that we re politics, look at the promises that were made repeatedly by mr corbyn, by all the other parties, that they would honour the referendum result, theyre refusing to do it. Here we stand at this critical moment in our countrys history, its our chance on thursday to honour our democracy and get brexit done. Thank you very much indeed. There has to be a test. Very briefly, mr corbyn. There has to bea very briefly, mr corbyn. There has to be a test on the statements made, and so, when people paint slogans on the side of a bus, which are totally unsustainable, perhaps it is time that we did have an independent monitoring of what goes on. Well, actually, if you look at the numbers we put on the side of the bus, the gross figures we pay to the eu, the number is coming up, and it is one of our advantages of our deal that we will take back control of our money, our borders, our laws, our immigration system. It is very clear, it is there in black and white, after 55 minutes we still do not know what mr corbyns deal would be and we still dont know whether he would back it, and nor do we know who in his shadow cabinet he is proposing to deploy to negotiate that deal, because none of them actually backs it. Thank you very much indeed. That is all the time we have got four questions. Now, each leader has got 30 seconds for their closing statement. The order was decided by the toss of a coin, borisjohnson order was decided by the toss of a coin, Boris Johnson chose order was decided by the toss of a coin, borisjohnson chose to go last, so can i askJeremy Corbyn, the labour party leader, to make your closing statement . People say that politics doesnt change anything, but it can. It was a radical Labour Government that created our National Health service and rebuilt britain. Today, we must be ambitious on the same scale. The future really is ours to make together. We can tackle the climate emergency, and Child Poverty and properly fund our National Health service. On thursday, you can choose hope and vote for real change. Thank you, mr corbyn. Mrjohnson, your closing statement, please. This thursday, we can choose another Hung Parliament under thursday, we can choose another Hung Parliament undeer thursday, we can choose another Hung Parliament under mr corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon with two chaotic referendums, or else we can get brexit done, get out of neutral and get a parliament that works for you and on your priorities, the nhs with the cost of living, 20,000 more police, more cash for our schools, lets get it done. Lets move on, vote conservative on thursday. Thank you, borisjohnson. Thank you, Jeremy Corbyn. Now, the debate is farfrom over, it is raging on social media. It is starting now on 5 live, where Stephen Nolan will ta ke 5 live, where Stephen Nolan will take your calls. You can have your say by calling. 0n the bbc news channel, christian is just next door in the spin room. And you can watch all of the Election Results with huw edwards on bbc one next thursday evening, beginning at 9. 55. That is it from here in maidstone. My thanks to the two party leaders, thanks to the audience, and thanks to you for watching. A very good night. Applause. Welcome to this special programme following the bbcs Prime Ministerial debate. We have just watched the final tv encounter between the two men who are bidding to become the uks next leader. An hour of debate on brexit, the nhs, security and the public finances. Did one of these men make a strong case for your vote in six days time . We will get plenty of reaction from our analysts and of course from the parties notjust labour and conservatives but also those parties not on stage tonight. Lots to get through in the next half hour. Lets start with the foreign secretary in the shadow trade secretary and i should get your reaction to what you saw. Boris johnson, the choices become very clear for the electorate, another Hung Parliament and more delay. Jeremy corbyn cannot answer the basic questions of brexit and Boris Johnson had passion and the plan to get brexit done. Of the detailed explanation of how he would unleash this countries potential on policing and on the economy. Why are you sweating and why am i not. Make because. York Prime Minister had no grasp of the numbers where there was the 40 new hospitals, the 50 new nurses that did not exist. This is not a one nation Prime Minister, this is a 1 of the nation Prime Minister. The top 1 of this nation over the past ten years had seen its income go up by 185 in over