Know . The kids laying on the floor. It was just terrible. Five women who accuse Jeffrey Epstein of abusing them say Prince Andrew witnessed massages at the sex offenders homes. Their lawyer says he plans to force the prince to testify as a witness. He knows what happened. I know what happened. And theres only one of us telling the truth, and i know thats me. Donald trump arrives in the uk for a nato summit. He says hes not interested in the nhs, not even if it was handed it to us on a silver platter, and insists hes not going to get involved in the election. And festive hot chocolates and lattes from high street chains contain masses of sugar who knew . the starbucks signature caramel hot chocolate in the middle here has 23 teaspoons hello. Welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. Do get in touch in the usual way. Details are on screen. In the next half hour were going to hearfrom the mum of one of the School Pupils injured in that hit and run in essex yeseterday. Her 15 year old, alfie barnes, is being treated in hospital for concussion and bruising and she says he was lucky. Firstjoanna has the news. Thank you, victoria, we are well matched today borisjohnson will urge nato leaders to put on a united front today as they gather in hertfordshire to mark the 70th anniversary of the partnership. Over two days the 29 allies, including us President Donald Trump who arrived in the uk last night, will hold talks amid growing divisions over natos future. Speaking a short while ago, mr trump said he wouldnt be getting involved in the general election. I have no thoughts on it. Its going to be a very important election for this great country, but i have no thoughts on it. I will be meeting with him, yes. Jeremy corbyn has written to president trump, insisting uk public services, including the nhs, will not be included in in any future trade deal with the United States. The labour leader has said there would be no post brexit deal with the us, under a labour government, if it insisted the nhs was included in talks. Borisjohnson has insisted the nhs is safe in the conservatives hands. A man has been arrested on suspicion of murder after a 12 year old boy was killed when a car hit children outside a school in essex. Six other people, including five teenagers, were injured in the accident yesterday afternoon. The 51 year old man is also detained on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving and six counts of attempted murder. Five women who accuse the late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein of abusing them are calling on Prince Andrew to testify in their cases. Their lawyer told bbc panorama he plans to serve subpoenas asking the duke to give evidence. Last nights programme included an interview with the woman, virginia giuffre, who says she was forced to have sex with the prince when she was 17. He categorically denies any such relationship. A catamaran carrying Climate Change activist Greta Thunberg is approaching a port in lisbon, after a 20 day crossing from new york. The swedish campaigner made the journey across the atlantic in la vagabonde, as she refuses to travel by plane. She will be attending that c0 p25 Climate Summit in madrid after meetings with portuguese climate activists. A second person has been found alive two weeks after becoming stranded in australias outback. Phu tran, 40, was discovered on tuesday on a remote farm in the northern territory. He was one of three people who split up when their car got stuck in a riverbed. One other woman has been found but another is still missing. Christmas lattes and hot chocolates being sold by some high street coffee chains can contain up to 23 spoonfuls of sugar per cup, a study has found. Action on sugar analysed more than 200 drinks and found shockingly large amounts of sugar in many of them. And well have more on this in the programme shortly. Now back to victoria. I think we have been shopping in the same place studio i love that top looking good. You too two state funded 0rthodox Jewish Schools in london have been accused of pressurising parents into withdrawing their children from new Sex Education lessons which become mandatory in secondary schools in england next year. This programme has seen emails and been leaked recordings of school staff telling parents how to take their children out of the lessons. The liberal democrat spokesperson for education says that the findings are shocking and the department for Education Needs to investigate. Catrin nye has this exclusive report. This house isnt for people with red hair. From next september, it will be mandatory to teach relationships education in primary schools in england and relationships and Sex Education rse in secondary schools. Its ok to be different. Some schools like this primary are already teaching it. They chant. Since january, there have been high profile protests and leafleting campaigns at school gates, particularly against teaching about lg bt relationships. Most of the protests so far have been from parents, with teachers supporting the lessons. This investigation has uncovered something different. Parents who feel that some Orthodox Jewish schools are pressuring them to remove children from classes. This mother received an e mail from her childrens 0rthodoxJewish School in Stamford Hill in north london. Its a state funded school. The problem is the government is making this subject mandatory in september 2020. However, parents have the right to opt out. I have attached the policy the school has in dealing with this subject. Hence, i do see you as parents have the right to withdraw your daughters from the subject on religious grounds. The e mail goes on. The subject is not currently taught in school. Please exercise your right to prevent it being taught by responding to this e mail saying that you do not want your daughters to receive lessons in rse. And this bits in bold. How did you feel when you got the e mail . I was quite. Disgusted, for want of a better word. Because i think i thought that my kids school was pretty open, as 0rthodox schools go. When sex and relationships education lessons become mandatory in 2020, parents will have the right to withdraw their children from the Sex Education element. That decision is meant to be up to parents, though, and not be influenced by pressure from a school. I think that e mail was designed to put a stop to rse being taught in the school. It was a really strong worded e mail saying, please, sign it so we dont have to teach it. Why is it, do you think that the school doesnt want to teach rse . I think the fact that people with different sexualities existing in the world is something that they dont want to expose their children to. I dont think they want to expose them to the concept of. Of sex. The school that sent that email is called lu bavitch senior girls school. It told us that if the parent concerned lodges her complaint according to the complaints policy, that it will be fully investigated and responded to appropriately. The mum, though, says she feels too scared to complain. Ive also been sent this recording. Now, this mum was called by staff at her childrensJewish School in north london. She was so shocked by what was said that she called the school back, recorded that conversation and shared it with us. Weve disguised the voice of the mother and an actor has voiced over the staff member to protect identities. Hello. You just called me before. Yes. Yeah, sorry, i put down the phone and i had so many questions i thought id call you back. 0k, go on. Firstly, what exactly should i be writing in the letter . What is it about exactly . Right, basically, we need parents to formally say, i do not want you to teach my child about single gender relationships or Sex Education within the school, unless you do, as a parent, want that. Do you want. . I mean, i assume as a parent you dont want us to teach your children this. No, i wouldnt. But youre asking all the mothers to do this . Yep. Every parent in the school. 0k. And i should write it to mrs. . To mrs neuberger, yes. 0k, ijust wanted to. 0k . Yep. Thank you so much. The school that made the calls is called Yesodey Hatorah. Its also state funded and in Stamford Hill in north london. It does not deny making those calls. The mother in the recording was too nervous to be on camera, so her words are read by an actor. After i received that call, i decided to write the letter to the school, saying i didnt want the teaching, even though i thought it was imperative for my children to be given Sex Education. I felt i had to write it because i didnt want the school to think i dont agree with them on this. Id be too scared to express my real views with anyone in the 0rthodoxjewish community as i know id be thought of as not jewish or completely weird, and i know id be alienated or ostracized. The truth is, our children need Sex Education more than any other child in the country because our community is so insular. There is no other way in which a child in this community could learn about healthy sex and relationships, as the internet and all forms of National Media is banned. In a statement, a spokesperson for Yesodey Hatorah school responded by saying. The vast majority of our families expect Sex Education to be given privately, within the family, at home. They do not expect their children to be given Sex Education in a school classroom. It is therefore very important that we let parents know that their child will be given Sex Education at school unless they opt out. The school conducted both an oral and a written consultation about Sex Education in spring 2018. Following this, parents made their choice. Every parent in our school opted out. The school will provide Sex Education for any child who has not opted out. Accusations of coercion against our school are entirely false. Not one parent has complained to the school about the issue. The school acts in keeping with the law and with parental choice. What do you want to do when you grow up . Yehudis fletcher is the founder of nahamu, a think tank addressing extremism in thejewish community,. She lives in manchester with her three children, who attend jewish 0rthodox schools. She says these e mails and calls put huge pressure on parents to do as the school wants rather than what they think is right for their children. Its very frightening. Nobody wants to be that one person because if theres, you know, 99 of the parents are going to send back that letter saying we want to withdraw our children for sre, that one or sort of of parents who are, you know, maybe brave enough not to send it back are then going to be targets. Yehudis says without Sex Education, many young Orthodox Jews dont find out what sex is until theyre expected to have it on their wedding night. And thats what happened to jamie, whose name weve changed because shes worried about a backlash for speaking out. Shes an artist whos now left the Orthodox Jewish community, but grew up in a strict religious family in Stamford Hill. She went to Yesodey Hatorah school, the one recorded in that phone message. What was your education like . I took gcses. And our school became state aided, so i had to, but our gcses were censored. So science, we didnt learn about evolution. We didnt learn about reproduction. We didnt learn anything regarding sex ed at all. Nothing . Nothing. Not even the word period nothing. Yeah, i just remember reading our science textbook and then theres all these blacked out words in it. Redacted stuff. And i remember trying to read it like put it up to the light and trying to read it, but i couldnt. She says the first time she was told about sex was just weeks before her wedding, at 19, by a woman sent to give her bridal lessons. So she said that we would go to our flat and i would have to ask him to unzip my dress and then id, you know, get undressed. He would leave the room, id get undressed, be completely naked under the covers, and then i would turn off the light. He would come in and then he would say a blessing and then do the deed. And he would. I asked her, what do you mean, do the deed . So she said, hes gonna lie on top of you. And ijust, ifreaked out, i couldnt take it. It was too traumatising. Jamie was even more petrified because shed been sneaking crime novels out of the library for some time. What shed read about sex in them was rape. She fled before the marriage and eventually left the community completely. We need parents to formally say, i do not want you to teach my child about single gender relationships or Sex Education within the school. We showed our investigation to layla moran, the liberal democrat spokesperson for education. I do think now, off the back of this investigation, the department for Education Needs to have its own investigation into these schools. Because if they are in effect coercing parents to stop them from wanting to have sex and relationships education in that school, i mean, that e mail that we saw was unequivocal. That phone call, i dont think, could have been much clearer. They clearly dont want to teach these subjects. That is counter to the guidelines, but it is also counter to the spirit of the equality act, which is the very same act that protects religious freedoms. I do think now its time for the department for education to act. Layla moran ending that report from catrin nye. We can speak now to yehudis fletcher, spokesperson for an organisation that addresses extremism in thejewish Community Called nahamu, and ellie spitzer, headteacher of anotherjewish Orthodox School in london. Welcome, both. First of all, yehudis, reaction to the story today . I really feel for the mothers who have spoken up, i think they are incredibly brave. I dont think anyone should underestimate the risks they had taken in speaking out. These are voices that need to be heard. How would you react, le . I think it is important for the viewers to understand a bit of context. When we talk about Orthodox Jewish schools, specifically we are talking about a branch of the orthodox community, a particular community. For those familiar with that community, they know those parents are absolutely determined to prevent their children from being exposed to any sexual material whatsoever, and as the report mentions, they go to extraordinary lengths to achieve that, by sheltering their children from the internets, they dont use social media. Therefore i think it is perfectly reasonable for a head teacher of a haredi school to assume parents would want to opt out of six education, but they have a duty to put it never to inform them that they should put it in writing. |j wonder they should put it in writing. wonder why those parents came to us then . The bloody do not necessarily represent the wider view of the community. In a Wider Community where children are exposed to the internet and social media, there is a need to redress that balance and to show children how to engage in sexual relationships and protect themselves, but in the context of a nahamu a haredi school, where children are completely sheltered from sexual content, if that fails, that could be a failure from the parents in doing that, but they try to do that, so i think the schools we re to do that, so i think the schools were acting in good faith and serving the needs and wishes of their parents. Do think that experiment . Yes. What about you, yehudis . I think it is disingenuous to say that this is what all the pa rents to say that this is what all the parents want, when those who do not are too scared to come out, so we have no idea how many parents want something different. It is not quite right to say that these children do not have any idea or any exposure to sex at all so we do not need to give them Sex Education, when we held from jamie who said i did not know anything until just before from jamie who said i did not know anything untiljust before my wedding and anything untiljust before my wedding and i had to free my wedding and has traumatised by this sudden, very abrupt introduction to sex. And that kate was shocking. Absolutely and very sad to listen to. And that case was shocking. and very sad to listen to. And that case was shocking. I am not claiming to be an authority in preparing young men and women for entering into sexual relationships. Perhaps none of us in this conversation are, but the outcome of that young woman not having any Sex Education was that traumatising experience and free and effectively before she got married. experience and free and effectively before she got married. I think that was a result of not being adequately prepared for entering that relationship, it does not mean that three or four years prior to that they would have to have been given Sex Education in schools. It would have helped. Yes, but it would have undermined a call principle and value of the community and it is perfectly reasonable to say it can be done at home. I think yehudis, in your organisation i am sure they do amazing work in promoting awareness but it does not have to involve changing school policy. But surely it does if the school are state funded . From what i have seen, i do not think the school has breached any department for education guidance. The department had set out the parents right to opt out and i think it is reasonable to inform parents who may not be aware, especially when you assume they would want to do that, to say we assume you want to opt out, but if you do not put it in writing, you will not be able to. For the parents that did not want to opt out, would you expect the school to provide Sex Education . It is their legal duty. So they would have to . Yes. Before a big yehudis in, let me read to messages. One says it is entirely up to parents to educate children and not schools, another one says pa rents a re not schools, another one says parents are capable of teaching their own children. And she says, again, why does the state insist on teaching our children about sex . Chris says the mandatory relationships education and relationships education and relationships in Sex Education includes topics like different families and tolerance but also privacy and consent, withdrawalfrom this that your child at risk and it isa this that your child at risk and it is a safeguarding matter. Yes, this is a safeguarding matter. Yes, this is something the state should insist on everyone being told. A statement from one of the schools that we reported from, one of the girls high schools, after we showed that the full transcript of the recorded phone call and tell them about the e mail, accusations of coercion against our school are completely false, the selective snippet of a conversation that has been paid was in response to a direct question from the parents about what should be written in order to opt their child out of Sex Education and follows a previous separate discussion on the subject. Not one school has complained that not one pa rent school has complained that not one parent has complained to the school about this issue. They got one, it is great with great regret that the bbc is giving out these unfounded and vexatious complaints. Unpainted olives be put to the school and at the school works closely with the appropriate regulatory bodies and has no intent on engaging with the bbc on a hate Campaign Based on painful but unrepresentative experiences. Yehudis, the mums that have come forward to us, we cant know, but how representative do you think they are . Like i say, it is impossible to know, what i do know is certainly representative is that in agreement with eli, most of the children who go to these schools have really, really limited knowledge of sex, but what happens to most of them is they go straight into the range marriages, most of them at the age of 18, some at 17, it is not three orfour of 18, some at 17, it is not three or four years of 18, some at 17, it is not three orfouryears in of 18, some at 17, it is not three or four years in advance that they might have received it, if they are able to receive a comprehensive package of education, say, when they are 16, that explains, really, you know, from a jewish perspective and the jewish ethos know, from a jewish perspective and thejewish ethos about consent know, from a jewish perspective and the jewish ethos about consent and boundaries and appropriate, healthy sexual attitudes, they go into those marriages that they are going into, no one is denying that they will almost all get married at 18 or 19, they will go into those marriages better equipped. It may be that maybe we would like it delivered in a different way and may be able be better if the parents could deliver the education at home, but we know they are not, we know that most of these girls will be told they had to have sex just a few days before they are expected to first have it. Provides what is your own experience, if i may ask . I was sexually abused as a teenager, when icame to sexually abused as a teenager, when i came to my bridal lessons may teach actually said to me, i suppose i dont have to tell you the ins and outs, she assumed i had learnt about sex by being raped by an older rabbi. So not a pleasant experience. 0k. Rabbi. So not a pleasant experience. Ok. In terms of your own school, i know you have four daughters, they are very know you have four daughters, they are very young, when it comes to teenage age, 16, 15, what would your view be . Obviously i will do everything i can to prepare my children, and everything i can to prepare my children, and i do the same for children, and i do the same for children in my care. I should point out that i completely reject the idea that you cant teach children about ritz, about protecting themselves, without going into the mechanics of sex. Teach children about risk. In my school on this, i daughters attend, we run workshops for parents and children in a very delicate and sensitive way where we teach children about protecting themselves, about privacy, about private parts, without going into the mechanics of sex. My school has an excellent record in safeguarding, as do plenty of other haredi schools, and i strongly believe it is possible to separate the two. Thank you very much for coming in, eli spitzer, head teacher of one Jewish School in london, and yehudis fletcher, spokesperson for an organisation which addresses extremism within thejewish community. Essex police have arrested a 51 year old man after a car hit a group of children yesterday, killing a 12 year old boy. Five other children and a woman were hurt in the crash near Debden Park High School in loughton yesterday, the man has been on suspicion of murder and attempted murder. The schools headteacher has been paying tribute to the boy. On behalf of the school and the trust, we send our heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of this young man, a young life so tragically lost. This young man has made his mark on the school and was liked and loved by staff and students. We will consult with the family and our community to decide how best to commemorate his life. As we continue to work with the police in this investigation, i am unable to say anything about the incident at this time, but i can tell you that the staff from the school were on hand immediately to offer support. Ive been speaking to donna mills, the mother of one of the injured children, 15 year old alfie barnes. Alfie is a bit. He is still in shock, really. He is a bit battered and bruised at the minute. He is just, yeah, in shock. He has concussion, he has a lot of bruising and soft tissue damage. He is one of the lucky ones, really. Has he been able to tell you what happened . He remembers the car coming towards him and he remembers sort of getting hit, but it is a bit of a blur. He hit, but it is a bit of a blur. He hit his head, i think he blacked out for a bit. It was a bit scary, very scary. How did you find out about it, donna . Alfie rang me and said, man, i have been hit by a car. I shutdown there as fast as i could. Horrendous. Terrible. It was terrible, yeah, really bad. It was horrible, really. Kids lying on the floor, it was just terrible. Horrible, really. Kids lying on the floor, it wasjust terrible. Does your son know that a boy has died . Yeah, he witnessed the whole thing, yeah. He witnessed the whole thing and he now has to live with that. What have the police been able to say to you . I havent heard from the police. Have they been to talk to alfie . No, not yet. That is presumably to come at some point. Thank you so much for talking to us, donna, and we send our best wishes, and of course to your boy as well. Thank you. Donna mills, the mother of alfie barnes, she had been in the hospital most of the night, got home at around 4 30am and was going back this morning. Donald trump has arrived in the uk for the nato summit. In the past hour hes already been holding his first meeting of the day and he was asked about the general election and whether hell actually have a one on one meeting with boris johnson. Here in london, will you be seeing Prime Ministerjohnston . I have no thoughts on it. Its going to be a very important election for this great country, but i have no thoughts on it. I will be meeting with him, yes. Wenbo bia bi . Wenbo biabi . I do not have the schedule. I have many meetings. When will that be . Well, Jeremy Corbyn has already written to the us president saying the nhs should be off the table in any post brexit trade discussions. In that same news conference, the president was asked about working with the labour leader if he won the election. In which to be able to work with a Prime MinisterJeremy Corbyn . In which to be able to work with a Prime MinisterJeremy Corbyn . in which to be able to work with a Prime MinisterJeremy Corbyn . I can work with everyone, i am a very easy person to work with, you would not believe it. Our correspondent Gary Odonoghue is outside the american ambassadors residence in central london. He has been relatively diplomatic so far regarding the general election the bid you did not hear in that victoria was him talking about nato, he was less than diplomatic. He described resident Emmanuel Macron of france is disrespectful, insulting, nasty, dangerous because of his comments about nato being brain dead but you are right, when it comes to the nhs, he was asked with the nhs be on the table and he said no, no, no, if you handed it to us on said no, no, no, if you handed it to usona said no, no, no, if you handed it to us on a silver platter we would not wa nt us on a silver platter we would not want anything to do with it, thats in contrast to what he said back in june when he said a post brexit trade deal, everything would be on the table. So his saying that helps some politicians, perhaps not others . Yes, and we will see if that line is maintained for the next 36 hours, you never can tell with donald trump. But i think he has got the memo, shall we put it like that . He has got the memo from downing street that says please, please, dont lob a bombshell shaped like the nhs into the middle of this general election with nine days to go. That would have been the great fear behind number ten s front door and it seems, so far, that the president is sticking to that line. What else is on his schedule for the rest of the time hes here, gary . Well he is meeting president Emmanuel Macron the sudden, that will be interesting after what he said this morning about the french president. He is also meeting some of the leaders. This essentially is a celebration, not a real summit, this is meant to mark 70 years of nato but its going to be one of those kind of Christmas Parties if you like, where everyone sits around the table and then suddenly, you are really worried because the difficult uncle really worried because the difficult u ncle starts really worried because the difficult uncle starts kicking off and this time around, we may have two or three difficult uncles in the shape of president trump, possibly the turkish president and president Emmanuel Macron. Gary, that tells us quite a lot about your own family and your christmas time as well thank you the father of jack merritt, who was one of the two people who died in the terror attack at fishmongers hall near london bridge, has appealed to politicians not to make Political Capital out of his death. Writing in the guardian, dave merritt says. Lets speak to carl cattermole, he s an ex prisoner who served time in fourjails . And he was a witness to the events that unfolded on friday. Mike crofts who was at the scene when Pc Keith Palmer was stabbed to Death Outside parliament in 2017, and founded the 3pillars project which mentors young men in custody, and dr rakib ehsan, Research Fellow at security think tank the Henry Jackson society. He specialises in researching radicalisation and terrorism. Welcome to all of you and thank you all for coming on. Im going to ask you to react first of all to the words of dave merritt, jack merritt s father. Words of dave merritt, jack merritt s father. So deeply emotional. Yet so deeply sober. Its spoken from the words of the guy s father and its exactly what jack would have wa nted its exactly what jack would have wanted and i think its so important that hes made this interjection when politicians have sought to panel beat it into their own narrative, it is amazing. Mike, how do you react . I think firstly we all feel this is a deeply tragic event but i think, i think one of the things we need to look at now is the example set by jack things we need to look at now is the example set byjack and saskia, two people who, despite the immense capability and privilege, were dedicating their time to help the least fortunate in our society, i think they set an example for all of us. How do you respond . I think a good number of people will really find his words very admirable in terms of how he has reacted to such a tragic loss, the killing of his son. I think its important to look at how we move forward and what sort of policy mix can work in the broader Public Interest when it comes to counterterrorism policy. On that point, do you think the Prime Minister is right when he says some people cannot be rehabilitated. When we talk about the attack last friday, usman khan was someone convicted of terrorism related offences, he was part of plans to carry out a terrorist attack on the london stock exchange, he also had plans to establish a terrorist training military facility back in kashmir. So i think what id like to see is that we are addressing cases individually and then being realistic about the prospects for rehabilitation. That offence did carry a maximum life sentence. We know what happened, the sentence was quashed, the original sentence quashed, the original sentence quashed the court of appeal in 2013, replaced by a fixed term sentence, 16 years, automatic release halfway through. But are you saying that there are some people who should get life sentences, like usman khan, are you suggesting . And there should be no resources directed towards rehabilitation . I would not be supportive of the view for example of scratching the Disengagement Programme on the basis of what happened thats programme on the basis of what happened. Thats when programme on the basis of what happened thats when people come out. A deradicalisation scheme run by the home office. But im asking you to you agree with the Prime Ministers goetz and people who can be rehabilitated . Ministers goetz and people who can be rehabilitated . Absolutely, in the of usman khan i would be sympathetic to the view he should have received an automatic life sentence in the view of broader Public Safety. He actively sought further de radicalisation and it fell on deaf or overstretched ears. I dont know if anyone has seen the letter he wrote from his cell saying he wa nted he wrote from his cell saying he wanted to participate more thoroughly and be a good, british citizen, to quote as men can and thats citizen, to quote as men can and thats you believe that was genuine . I dont have any reason to say it was all it wasnt, it was a letter written by his own hand, it isa letter written by his own hand, it is a pattern you see over and over again within the prison system, you see people who have drug habits, who wa nt to see people who have drug habits, who want to get clean, cant access treatment courses but can access heroin, you see people who have committed crimes through property, going to jail, coming out poor and homeless, qc the system, really, it temporarily takes people out of society and makes them worse and returns them, prison is not a solution to social problems. returns them, prison is not a solution to social problems. I think coral makes a really astute point, in this situation we focus on sentence length but we really need to talk about what is prison for . Yes, there is a deterrent and punishment element but ultimately, the attack on friday, he was in prison for eight years in what has been done in that time . What is the standard rehabilitation going on in custody . Its too easy to talk about the release section, its actually a distraction from the real debate which is what is going on day to in prisons . Through our project with three pillars work in prisons we made some amazing prison officers, probation officers, ive actually never met a bad probation officer but we have to really ask, are we properly supporting them and equipping them to have the effect on the entire prison population that exists . Would you accept that come up exists . Would you accept that come up with the 40 cuts we seem to the ministry ofjustice since 2010, 20 cuts to prison and Probation Service, the big reform of the Probation Service which tendered out some of the services to private companies, that could have affected whats going on inside prisons . Companies, that could have affected whats going on inside prisons . think i would add to the point coral makes, we are looking at state run rehabilitation courses for people who have been convicted of terrorism offe nces who have been convicted of terrorism offences such as distance and disengagement, unfortunately that carries the risk of people almost deceiving the councillors who were actually involved in those programmes into tricking them into believing they actually have been de radicalised, when the reality is very much remain a hardened fundamentalist, he may even harbour aspirations to carry out terrorist attacks going into the future. So i do think, in light of the tragic events last friday, i will say Public Confidence in those sorts of programmes are not going to be particularly high at this present moment. You see the way probation goes at the moment, i agree with you, you go in, they ask you, they barely look at you from their paperwork, everything all right . You are like, everything is all right, at the door, next. They dont have the time of the resources to support the time of the resources to support the most minor offenders, let alone someone whos just been convicted of a serious terrorist offence. We have to make sure the staff in the system can do the job properly, absolutely true. But now is not the time for a knee jerk responses that effectively focus on the political ongoing is at the moment. We have to hold whichever government is account on the 13th of december, properly holding to account for the whole syste m holding to account for the whole system across prison and probation. Its not properly looked at, i think, for the past two decades, it really is an issue that is decaying and all politicians, regardless of their party, have the responsibility to ensure events like friday do not happen. We cannot put it down to one party or another. Its interesting, clearly, from your own experience, you would say people who go to jail and you been to jail a number of times, can always given another chance, can be rehabilitated. Would you . From your own experience . I mean, there 85,000 people in the british prison system under 35,000 different experiences. Some people are different experiences. Some people a re really different experiences. Some people are really foregone. But im definitely of the belief that eve ryo ne definitely of the belief that everyone can be good. When you say far gone, you mean they can be rehabilitated . I dont, i you know, what i mean . People are so far down the path of what their life has become that its a really complicated issue for me to give a kind of, a decree over 85,000 people. Absolutely, fair enough, you make a really good point. You clearly believe some people can be rehabilitated. I think adding to carl s point, when we are looking at people convicted of terrorism related offences, at people convicted of terrorism related offences, a at people convicted of terrorism related offences, a good number are so deeply immersed in religious fundamentalist ideologies, often of a deeply violent character, when we are approaching the possible rehabilitation, i think we have to be realistic when it comes to the prospects of them actually being de radicalised. And there are also difficulties in understanding what the radicalisation actually constitutes. Can you tell us and our audience what the Disengagement Programme involves, which was what usman khan went on after he was released last december . Its a real habilitation course. Run by the home office. Its designed to give tailored intervention, address personal grievances, set to be exacerbated by extremist narratives, also part of that would be trying to help them disengage from deeply extremist ideology, often of a fairly, deeply violent character. As well. So, it is, this is, its very tricky in terms of actually trying to analyse how successful it is because it was only launched in october 2016 as well. We would only hear about the figures, wouldnt we . We wouldnt hear about the success stop i think when it comes to programmes of that nature you have to look at the risk reward trade off, there may well be successful cases but is that trade off in the name of the broader Public Safety . Thats a fair question. We hear about for years because they are so extreme and have such a far reaching and devastating impact, thats true. But i think to talk about the radicalisation programmes in that way ultimately radicalisation is a crisis of identity, young men, typically, get drawn into a crisis of identity because they are often isolated and vulnerable in society. The prison syste m vulnerable in society. The prison system exacerbates that because prisons are generally quite intimidating places so if you are a 19 year old, like the attacker, who goes into prison aged 19 in 2012, you find yourself incredibly vulnerable, in a vulnerable situation. You have to ask yourself, who is that young man immediately going to be drawn towards . It can be drawn into gangs, he can potentially keep himself to himself which is very difficult in a Young Offenders institute, which he would have been aged 19, or he can stick with what he knows, which might be more radicalised groups within the custody system . And radicalised groups within the custody system . And fundamentally, we come back to this point, that the Prison Service must be safe, it must be secure, in order to effectively tackle radicalisation in custody. Cani tackle radicalisation in custody. Can i say, prison exacerbates your pre existing problems, if you are overly macho a concrete set character trait, if you are vulnerable he will be victimised, if you are a drug addict you will find further drugs and if you are an extremist, you will not learn to like the system when you are at the sharp end of the most dysfunctional element. Thank you all very much, really appreciate your time and your contributions. Coral, mike and doctor raqin. Last night bbc panorama featured the uk 5 first interview with virginia giuffre, the woman who says she was sex trafficked by paedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Giuffre, formerly virgina roberts, claims that she was paid by epstein to have sex with Prince Andrew on three occasions, including when she was under the age of consent in new york. She says that Ghislaine Maxwell, a british socialite who was good friends with the prince was the one who set up the encounters. Maxwell denies the allegations. Heres a clip. There was a bath and it started there and it led into the bedroom, and it didnt last very long, the whole entire procedure. It was disgusting. He wasnt mean or anything. But he got up and he said thanks and walked out. And i sat there in bed, just horrified and ashamed and felt dirty and i had to get up and grab a shower. You know, the next day Glenn Maxwell tells me idida the next day Glenn Maxwell tells me i did a good job, she pats me on the back and said you made him really happy. Back and said you made him really happy back and said you made him really happy. Ghislaine. It was a wicked time in my life, it was really scary time in my life, it was really scary time in my life. Prince andrew has denied all the accusations in a recent newsnight interview, saying he doesn t recall ever meeting virginia guiffre with whom he has been pictured, and he has denied any sexual contact with her. Panorama also revealed that five more women who accuse epstein of abuse want to call Prince Andrew as a witness. They claim he saw the massages . Which victims claim were sexual going on. Subpoenas are now ready to be served in all five cases. It means the next time Prince Andrew visits the us he faces being ordered to give evidence whether he likes it or not. Lets speak to conchita sarnoff, the author and investigative journalist who broke the epstein story in 2010 and appeared in last nights panorama, and angela levin, royal biographer. Thank you both for coming on the programme. Conchita, firstly, your reaction to the fact these five women want to call Prince Andrew as a witness to events inJeffrey Epstein s comes. A witness to events inJeffrey Epstein s comes. Good morning, victoria. I think its a move in the right direction because after a ten year investigation i was wondering why there wasnt another victim coming forward to support miss roberts claims. And as a victims advocate, you know, in a case such as this, and knowing Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and their exploitative behaviour, i found and Ghislaine Maxwell and their exploitative behaviour, ifound it unusual that other victims did not witness what miss roberts claimed. To have happened. So im very happy and satisfied that these other five victims are coming forward. Angela, how do you react . This is what happens, isnt it . One person is courageous happens, isnt it . One person is courageous enough to bring this topic up and then, when things move ona bit, topic up and then, when things move on a bit, other people come, we had that withjimmy on a bit, other people come, we had that with jimmy savile and all sorts of other people whove been accused of other people whove been accused of abusing young women. And they say they witnessed abuse. Yes. They are saying that andrew would have witnessed abuse. Yes. Things need to be taken through to their conclusion. We have two people who say absolutely the opposite, one is giving enormous detail and very emotional and very articulate. The other person, Prince Andrew, is talking in a vacuum, really, gave a very, very poor performance and we need to get to the bottom of it, i think. The public will want to do that now. Conchita, Virginia Roberts said last night that this is a story about trafficking and abuse. Did you realise that as soon as she began investigating it almost a decade ago . Yes, i did, victoria. In fact, the lawyer who currently represents virginia, has filed different charges concerning this case and i mentioned, i said, charges concerning this case and i mentioned, isaid, this charges concerning this case and i mentioned, i said, this case has nothing to do with the us statute of reco, less to do with the rate of a minor, it is a global child six trafficking case. If all the complaints that were filed at the time between 2005 and 2010 were accurate and as a victims advocate for many years now, since 2006, i insta ntly for many years now, since 2006, i instantly recognised that this was the largest, most extensive child sex trafficking global case of the century. Without a doubt. You actually knewjeffrey century. Without a doubt. You actually knew Jeffrey Epstein century. Without a doubt. You actually knewJeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell from your social circle. And did you notice anything suspicious . You know, i have thought about your question so many times over the years. I met both of them in the early 90s through a mutual acquaintance and i met her through a mutual friend acquaintance and i met her through a mutualfriend and acquaintance and i met her through a mutual friend and i acquaintance and i met her through a mutualfriend and i never, ever suspected anything, in fact, i have been to the lateJeffrey Epstein s Palm Beach Home and i never saw anything untoward or indecent or anything untoward or indecent or anything that would call attention. The two details that for me were critical in my re evaluation of Jeffrey Epstein was first, my daughter s reaction when he came to my home in connecticut in 91, i think, 91, i believe, that was the first time in the first reaction that my daughter ever had of a man coming, ofa person that my daughter ever had of a man coming, of a person coming to my house. And the second reaction was of course, at the Clinton Global Initiative when Ghislaine Maxwell, i was standing with a head of state talking to him and Ghislaine Maxwell came from behind me and literally, picked me up and to say hello, so unusual, the head of state basically looked at me and just the way, what he said to me and the way he looked, i realised that there was something wrong, you know, it was behaviour that was just not usual. Those were the red flags i would suppose. Angela, i want to ask you, but will be going on behind the scenes with the royal family today after last night s programme . The royal family today after last night s programme . the royal family today after last night s programme . I think Prince Charles would have been talking to his mother and of course, came down mikey came back from new zealand and we nt mikey came back from new zealand and went straight to sandringham to talk to his father and i think its a real change of movement in that they will be relying on him to help them through this, they havent thought much of him in his early years but now, they really recognise that they need him and they need to sort this out very quickly. What does that mean, sort it out . To discuss again with Prince Andrew what they might do, they might take stronger decisions, perhaps they wont want him to come to church on christmas day. In. Him to come to church on christmas day. In they might say dont come up, dont come to any other things where we are going as a family. Should they tell him to go to the us . I think thats up to the horses concerned to say, will you come over . Not necessarily. One of the lawyers last night said he should man up and come here. the lawyers last night said he should man up and come here. I dont think he will do that at all. We could see from the interview he is a big coward and he is inflated with his own view of himself and i dont think he would offer to do that. Thank you both, thank you very much for your time, we appreciate it. Angela and conchita. And if youve been affected by issues in this discussion, there is a range of organisations and websites that can offer you advice and support. You can find them listed on the bbcs actionline website at bbc. Co. Uk actionline seasonal lattes and hot chocolates being sold by some high street coffee chains can contain up to 23 spoonfuls of sugar per cup. Hot chocolates contained the most, and some were made using alternative to cows milk, which campaigners say is seen as a healthier option by many. Top of the hall of sugar shame is starbucks signature caramel hot chocolate, and a large 20 ounce with whipped cream and oat milk has 23 teaspoons of sugar. Then there is caffe nero, the salted caramel hot chocalate, with whipped cream and skimmed milk. Their largest size, a 16 ounce grande, has 15 teaspoons of sugar. Third is eats honeycomb hot chocolate with semi skimmed milk, and a 13 ounce regular size has 12 teaspoons of sugar. Who would have thought with all that caramel and chocolate and whipped cream, there was so much sugar . Katharinejenner is a nutritionist and Campaign Director for action on sugar who has done the study of these drinks. Everyone knows they are stacked with sugar and it is a christmas treat. Did you know how much sugar . didnt but i knew it was a lot. Did you know how much sugar . didnt but i knew it was a lot. Its a variety to behold, the highest 97 grams of sugar, whats a variety to behold, the highest 97 grams of sugar, whats whats that in teaspoons . 23, one has 40, thats from another well known cafe, you may not know how much sugar, but you may not know how much sugar, but you wouldnt know it was not i unsurprising as well, some of them appear to have gone up and sugar since we last looked at them, they are meant to become a part of a Bigger Campaign at Big Government programme to reduce the sugar content, there are meant to be doing something about it. Are they, they are exempt from the sugar tax . There isa are exempt from the sugar tax . There is a voluntary programme at the minute which covers milk based drinks including milkshakes as well, i would say thats pretty much a hot milkshake. There is a threat that they will be brought into the soft drinks levy which has been really successful on sugary soft drinks, removing about 30,000 tonnes of sugarfrom removing about 30,000 tonnes of sugar from the removing about 30,000 tonnes of sugarfrom the diet. Removing about 30,000 tonnes of sugar from the diet. Companies had taken action. Reduce the sugar. They are taken action. Reduce the sugar. They a re really taken action. Reduce the sugar. They are really innovative and have taken the opportunity, they havent lost out on sales, the companies have been given the chance to voluntarily reduce sugar and some have taken it upon themselves to considerably cut the sugar and others have failed and what we are left with is an unlevel Playing Field and its time we levelled it up. They say and they do do this but we offer low fat, low sugar versions are pretty much everything. Do they . They are hard to find for one thing. Low sugar options to customers. Some of the chains do. The full options are not the low sugar ones, i struggled to find lower examples of this, they we re find lower examples of this, they were pretty high so i dont think thats the acceptable response now, i think thats the acceptable response now, ithinka thats the acceptable response now, i think a full option has to be a slightly better option, im not saying hot chocolate or lactate needs to be healthy but these are products people are eating every day, its always one season after another, they are pushing indulgent extras and cakes at the till, i dont think you need to have put in for your breakfast every day. Are you telling people, do not have one of these unless you are aware of how much sugar is in it . People are entitled to have these, they can have whatever they want but i would say if you can choose a smaller size, dont have extra syrup, ask for sugar free syrup, ask if they can give you an unsweetened milk, if you are using dairy alternatives, there is no use reason to use sugar sweetened milk. Ok, im going to bring this nurse, i keep thinking im on radio 5 live, i am going to bring viewers this news, its to do with the labour leaderJeremy Corbyn, he says, he has said this morning he is very sorry for anything that has happened to upset people over anti semitism. A further apology from Jeremy Corbyn, the labour party leader. And i quote i quote i am very sorry for anything that has happened to upset people over anti semitism. He said it on itv a little earlier. Thank you so much for your time today, catherine. Have a good christmas. Bbc newsroom live is coming up next. Thank you for your company today. Hello, good morning. Varying amounts of cloud so far today, theres been some bright and sunny spells across england and wales, that is a scene from one of the weather watchers in coral this morning. You can see the sunshine there, we will see a bit of sunshine there, we will see a bit of sunshine in the north east of scotland, elsewhere across scotland, Northern Ireland, going to remain fairly cloudy into the afternoon, sunny spells elsewhere across england and wales, bright day and it hasnt been as cold as recent days, temperatures by this afternoon getting up to 7 9d, possibly 10 degrees in the south west of england and north west of scotland. Through it and and north west of scotland. Through itandi and north west of scotland. Through it and i rain and north west of scotland. Through itand i rain moving into and north west of scotland. Through it and i rain moving into Northern Ireland and into the west of scotland, elsewhere a try now one or two full patches developing in central and eastern areas, buckets of frost developing for england and wales, scotland and Northern Ireland, the temperatures are staying up about 6 9d. For wednesday, rain across western scotland, Northern Ireland, moving eastwards into northern england, for south and east it should be largely trite with sunshine. Goodbye for now. You re watching bbc newsroom live, its 11 am, and these are the main stories this morning Donald Trumps in the uk for a nato summit he says hell stay out of the election and promises to cooperate with whoever wins. The president also reiterated his support for britain leaving the European Union and said the United States wants nothing to do with the nhs in any uk us trade deal. I dont even know where that rumour started. We have absolutely nothing to do with it. If you handed it to us on to do with it. If you handed it to usona to do with it. If you handed it to us on a silver platter, we would wa nt us on a silver platter, we would want nothing to do with