Instagram promises to take down all posts about methods of suicide and self harm after a campaign by the dad of 14 year old Molly Russell, who took her own life after viewing distressing posts. She was such a. Such a force for good. She always wanted to help people. So im pretty certain that she would be pushing for change. So that young people were safe when they were online. And that if they need help, they can more easily find it. Mollys dad, ian, is here in the studio with 13 year olds Aoife Odriscoll and Trinity Bradford to talk about what they see on social media and how it affects them. And if youre a woman who wants to freeze your eggs for anything other than medical reasons the law says theyll be destroyed after ten yea rs. A Campaign Launches today calling for that to change. Well talk to these two women who both faced losing their eggs when they neared the ten year limit. Hello, welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. If youre off school for half term, do get in touch and let us know what sort of upsetting or sinister material have you seen online. Where you searching for it or did it come up inadvertently . We will devote a fair part of our programme for it. How did it make you feel send us a text 61124 or tweet me use the hastage victorialive. Lots of you getting in touch about that brexit extension until 31st january. Paul on twitter great. This tele novela has been renewed for a third season. Jason on twitter thank you eu. You calmness and rationality is embarrassing when compared to our lot. Appy on twitter this will go on forever. Also have you frozen your eggs . Let us know why. E mail us. So much to talk about. Firstly, Carrie Gracie with the news. The eu has agreed to grant a flexible extension to the uks depature from the bloc until the 31st of january. European Council President donald tusk tweeted following a meeting of ambassadors from the 27 other member states. It means the uk could leave the eu sooner if a deal is approved by parliament. Later mps will vote on Boris Johnsons call for a general election on the 12th of december. A lorry driver is due in court today, charged in connection with the deaths of 39 people found in a refrigerated lorry container in essex. Maurice robinson is facing charges of manslaughter, conspiracy to traffic people and Money Laundering. In vietnam, police are collecting dna from people who fear their relatives are among those who died. Instagram has told the bbc its extending a ban on graphic posts to include material about self harm and suicide including pictures, drawings and cartoons. Its the companys latest response to public concern over the death of 14 year old Molly Russell, who took her own life in 2017 after viewing such content. Her father ian has called on the company to speed up the changes. In a few minutes, victoria will be speaking to ian, as well as social media users, about the move. Allies of the United States have warned that the fight against the Islamic State group is not yet over, in spite of the death of its leader, Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi. President Emmanuel Macron said the raid was a blow to the group and that france would continue to work towards iss definitive defeat. Britain described it as an important moment but not the end of the organisation. There have been further reports that another Senior Leader of the group has been killed. The family of a british backpacker who disappeared after a beach party in cambodia have flown to the country to join searches for her. Amelia bambridge, whos 21 and from worthing in sussex, was last seen in the resort of koh rong on wednesday, but did not return to her hostel. Her handbag containing her purse, phone and bank cards has been found on a beach nearby. A rescue operation to save a toddler stuck in a narrow well in india has gone into its third day. Heavy machinery is being used to dig a second hole, parallel to the one the child fell into, in the state of tamil nadu. Oxygen is being pumped to the two year old boy but layers of mud mean the rescuers cant assess the childs condition. Thats our news summary, now back to victoria for the rest of the programme. Molly russell was just 1a when she took her own life in 2017. When herfamily looked into her Instagram Account after her death they found distressing material about depression, suicide and self harm. After a committed campaign by her dad, Ian Instagram has pledged to remove all posts about methods of suicide and self harm including pictures, drawings and even cartoons. Well talk to ian russell in a moment. He believes instagram is partly responsible for his daughters death and hes taken his campaign to clean up social media to Silicon Valley. You may find some of the material in this report upsetting. I expect it will be quite an emotional thing for me given whats happened to our family. Children are literally dying every day. Itjust needs to be shut down. This isntjust for molly. This is for every young, wasted life. I think thats why mollys story has probably taken off, that it is a modern day nightmare. I personally have had as young as seven year old who have had a full on attempt of suicide. Free hess is a paediatric doctor that works in an emergency room in florida. The numbers are rising rapidly. The ages are decreasing significantly. Do you think this is connected with social media . Absolutely. Absolutely connected with social media. We can go right on in here. And thats pretty graphic. I dont know that theres one picture here thats not showing blood or a scar. Like a grooming process. Especially instagram, because, you know, you follow one hashtag to another, hashtag to another hashtag, and its grooming that person to self harm more, consider suicide more. And maybe even take action on that. And at 5. 38, he found her lifeless body. Diane grossman is the mother of mallory grossman. Sadly, dianes another parent bereaved by suicide and she goes into schools and gives extraordinary talks to quite young children. One building, one high school, had nine suicides in one year. Nine children. Hindsight is cruel. Hindsight is very cruel. Thats the toughest thing to cope with, is it . Yes, it is. I share that people think that the worst day of my life was the day that she died. And i would say, no, its the day before. It was the day before. A million things you wish youd done differently. If i could sit down at the table with mark zuckerberg, could i make your product better . Could i make it safer . What a great way for you to attaboy each other and high five, each other in the boardroom if you actually put an infrastructure and a system to protect children. I think that there are still some, even if its one in 100, that stay on the site because we havent found them yet. Our technology hasnt become as strong as it needs to be to find all of them. I dont think well ever be in a place where every single image that violates our policies is off of our platform. But its our responsibility to get that number to as close to zero as possible. I think, in many ways. Mollys with me every day. And ive wondered what she might, might have thought, had she still been alive about such things. And i think. She was such a. Such a force for good. She always wanted to help people. So im pretty certain that she would be pushing for change. So that young people were safe when they were online. And that if they need help, they can more easily find it. If youre feeling emotionally distressed and would like details of organisations which offer advice and support. Go online to bbc. Co. Uk actionline or you can call for free at any time. Lets talk to ian russell. Mollys dad. Also with us 13 year olds aoife 0driscoll and Trinity Bradford who both have Instagram Accounts, they re here with their mum and dads permission; and Bernadka Dubicka is chair of the child and adolescent faculty at the Royal College of psychiatrists. The nature of our conversation mean we will be talking about suicide and self harm so please ensure children arent watching if you think it will affect them. Thank you all forjoining us on the programme. I want to ask you first of all, ian, since your daughters death, what have you learned about the power of social media . There are many things i have learned since molly has died. The first has nothing to do with social media. I think that is the prevalence of Mental Ill Health. I was lulled into a false sense of security. I thought it was something that did not happen that often, but probably to other people in a misguided way. But there are figures that show Something Like one infourof are figures that show Something Like one in four of us will suffer an episode of Mental Ill Health in any given year. It is really quite common. So the first thing that is important for us all to know, particularly young people as they are growing up, is that it is almost to be expected that at some point in your life, you will have a bad day. We are quite used to that. Then, when you know that, it is important to know how to react. Because i suspect molly found herself in a bad place. And, she was always someone who was very good at solving her own problems, she was very independent. Gorgeous, warm and adoring, and would ask for help. But if she could sort things out for herself, she would. My belief is that she, as many youngsters would, she looked for help on the internet because thatis for help on the internet because that is where you find all sorts of lovely a nswers a nd that is where you find all sorts of lovely answers and she may well have received tremendous support and good advice but, among that, among that good advice and support, she found harmful content. She found it very easily. And she found it in places i had no idea such content would exist. She found it on public platforms such as instagram. Content that encouraged self harm, content that encouraged self harm, content that gave you tips on how to do it so that gave you tips on how to do it so you would not be discovered. Content that linked to self harm to depression and suicide. Content that normalised that sort of world, content that persuaded people who saw it that there was no alternative and no future. And any future was very bleak. And content that, in the end, helped to persuade molly to end her life. Ian, i want end, helped to persuade molly to end her life. Ian, iwant to introduce you to aoife and trinity, they are both 13. When you hear in speak like that, what do you want to say to him . It is compelling, really. And what you are doing is incredible work. It is amazing and the fact you are helping so many other people is incredible. It is really inspirational. I cannot imagine what you are going through. Inspirational. I cannot imagine what you are going throughli inspirational. I cannot imagine what you are going through. I think i cannot imagine what im going through, and im going through it. The reason we are doing it, and we discussed it for a long time as a family whether or not to talk about mollys death publicly and the only reason we decided to is to hopefully prevent other such waste of young life. Youve turned it into something so positive. It is amazing. It is incredible. Can i ask, have you ever come across things you dont want to have seen on social media. Yes. Quite a lot, to be honest. There are things you are not looking for, and it can even be comedy and joked about and it really shouldnt be. It is very suggestive. What can be checked about, suicide and self harm . Suggestive. What can be checked about, suicide and selfharm . Even the smallest thing. It is definitely very normalised, and it is monday morning, i want to kill myself. Things like that. You have seen things that say things like that . Yes, and its in a comedic way, like it isa yes, and its in a comedic way, like it is a joke. And it really shouldnt be. The way it has been normalised. It doesnt actually happen . We can joke normalised. It doesnt actually happen . We canjoke about it. It is only in movies, things like that. But it does happen. And it builds up overtime, ican but it does happen. And it builds up overtime, i can imagine. Seeing that repeated a lot. It definitely would take a toll on your Mental Health. In the film, ian, diane spoke about hindsight. How hindsight is cruel, and she reflects on what she might have done differently. I am guessing that you may have had those reflections . I think any pa rent those reflections . I think any parent bereaved by suicide will inevitably blame themselves. For the rest of their lives. Do you . Yes, everyday. It is not the job of a pa rent to everyday. It is not the job of a parent to outlive one of your children. Inevitably, you feel you have not done yourjob properly. You may understand the reasons behind that, and logically you might think lots of things have led to the death of your daughter but ultimately, as a parent, you will spend the rest of your day blaming yourself. In the case of molly specifically, there we re case of molly specifically, there were signs that we took to be the normal signs of a 1a year old. Molly had just my older sisters, and she spent a little bit more time alone in her room, just like her sisters. And before her, she was keen on horse riding but she gave that up earlier in the year, saying that she had plateaued and wasnt improving enough. She wanted to give it a break and go back to it which sounded like a reasonable reason for doing so. They are all signs which, with the benefit of hindsight, you wish you had just booked a little bit more about it. I always say that there were a handful of tiny signs that when we look back with hindsight, all the little clues line up. Now, they look like a positive glue at the time. There we re positive glue at the time. There were big gaps between, and each isolated thing was hard to spot. But as you say it felt normal to you at the time. Do you speak to your pa rents the time. Do you speak to your parents about how you are feeling all the time . Or parents about how you are feeling all the time . 0rdo parents about how you are feeling all the time . Or do you keep it to yourself and share with friends . Not keep it to myself but not all the time. It is like when someone says, how are you doing . And you say, im doing good. You wouldnt go, oh, actually, today im feeling like this. It isjust conversation. You would say i am fine, thats a normal thing to say. One of the things we think we should have done as a family, instead of saying, are you 0k, molly . And she would answer, im fine. We would ask what is wrong if we thought she was more quiet than normal because it may have encouraged her to say actually, im having a bad day today. Was there any point where you were like, that is not like her . 0r any point where you were like, that is not like her . Or was it a shot . The worst or was it a shock . The worst or was it a shock . We we nt the worst or was it a shock . We went to a family party with a few people that we did not know and molly was very quiet, she hardly spoke. It was a Barbecue Party at the end of the summer and she did not say very much to anybody. That was probably the biggest clue that she gave anyone. But again, it was the sort of behaviour we had seen in other teenagers. It is so hard to pick normal behaviour from that depressive behaviour. In a moment, i will bring in our speakerfrom depressive behaviour. In a moment, i will bring in our speaker from the royal of psychiatrists. will bring in our speaker from the royal of psychiatrists. I want to show you and reduce instagram posts we found just this weekend. This is in spite of your incredible campaigning, going to speak to instagram and their promise that they are taking down, as they put it, they have removed graphic images of self harm. But they cannot find all of it, they are making progress. The first one, im going to read it to you. It is too graphic to show. Let me give you a warning, if you are if you are at home with younger children and you think this is not appropriate for them, turn away. I have children myself, just giving you that warning. Let me read you this, i want your reaction as 13 year olds. Ive checked with your pa rents. 13 year olds. Ive checked with your parents. It says, i miss cutting. I miss my razor blades. I miss the blood. Im sorry. You thought i was over it but honestly, ijust miss it. How do you respond to that . That isa it. How do you respond to that . That is a lot to process. It is a lot. If you came across that, even if you we re you came across that, even if you were not looking for it, it is like, wow. Were not looking for it, it is like, wow. The idea that heals people . They think that heals people. I think they made it a problem so there i think they think they made it a problem so therefore they deserve to be punished. Is that pretty harmful and sinister . M seems to me, as someone who pretty harmful and sinister . M seems to me, as someone who does not fully understand self harming, that it is potentially sinister and harmful. I think you have to better understand the reasons behind that kind of behaviour. They do it out of a lead and they continue to do it for the need and we need to fully understand the reasons behind self harm. Understand the reasons behind selfharm. Let me show you the next one, ifi selfharm. Let me show you the next one, if i may. The voice in my mind when i am in pain. You can see the word cut repeated. How would you respond to that . It looks like it is only a word but it has so much power behind it, especially when used in that context. It is like, that is so. That context. It is like, that is so. If you are already thinking about this kind of thing, and you see other people thinking the same thing is you, if you are relating to it, and you go, me too, i guess . It is subliminal. You dont even think about it. Ian, what do you think of that . It is a great example of something where if you are exposed to that kind of content time and again, it becomes normal. Cutting is not something that is abnormal any more. And if you are trying and struggling, and trying to stop cutting and find help, itjust discourages that quest. It is more likely that you will give up and continue cutting, i think. Likely that you will give up and continue cutting, ithink. Im likely that you will give up and continue cutting, i think. Im going to show you one more, this is an example of the kind of helpful posts that can be out there. Lets be honest, social media can be a force for good. If you are struggling, you can find support online sometimes. This says that suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem. Let me bring in our guest, the chair of the child and adolescent faculty at the royal of psychiatrists. What do you make of those posts . They are deeply distressing and as ian said, if you feel vulnerable and are a young person, you will struggle to kind of shrug that content. There is the process whereby these kinds of feelings become more intense and young people are bombarded with this kind of content. If you are vulnerable and feel depressed and have low self esteem, it is easy to become submerged within that content and full of despair. The important point to make, as ian highlighted. We have a huge crisis in terms of Mental Health provision in this country at the moment. Many young people cannot get the help they need early on. Perhaps if young people like molly could access just as easily the support they needed early on, hopefully this kind of detrimental content would have less ofan impact. Detrimental content would have less of an impact. I noticed on your programme you gave warnings and said there was an action line, a support line. Why cant social Media Companies do the same . Young people need to access positive content and sources of help just as easily, if not more easily, then accessing difficult content. Ive done it for the purposes of research, for this conversation. If you look up self harm or suicide, there are individuals posting helpline numbers under that hashtag because they know people who are vulnerable will see them. Is that enough . 0r people who are vulnerable will see them. Is that enough . Or does it have to come from social Media Companies . I think the problem with social media is that it works by keeping you on the platform. Stay on the platform, use it longer and we make more money. It pushes similar content, they have algorithms designed to push this content they think you will like. Did you know that if you search for certain stuff more stuff will be pushed towards you . I started following singers, like Ariana Grande and people like that. Then other singers would pop up that. Then other singers would pop up on my feed. I guessed it. If you look upa up on my feed. I guessed it. If you look up a helpline, under the caption suicide, would that come up with actual suicide pictures and stuff . You may need it for the positive help. If you search with that hashtag, suicide, you may get the helpful posters but the others are. It is like an advertisement to do it. I think because of the dangers, i think that if people are searching for those terms, the algorithms that the social media platforms use should be adapted so that they are much more likely to push you gently and carefully towards support. Any change needs to be carefully managed. I dont want to stop the benefits of social media. We need to be careful that the regulations coming in are sensible, we dont want censorship but sensible regulations. It is not right that there is content freely available online. I say if you take that content and you put it on a billboard, a poster board, at the edge of a town . There is so much content online that if you put it on a billboard at the edge of a town, the citizens of that town would be outraged. They would demand it be taken down. That is a really good point. Such a good point. Someone on twitter says that they come across pictures that portray and show self harm all the time. Although they are not searching for it was another viewer says that they have extensive scarring from self harm when they were a teenager. They have started a body positive Instagram Account as a space for people who have scars and no longer want to spend their lives covering up. Several of my posts will be removed, though. It is like we are being raised. Like we are being erased. But where do you go from here . think it isjust but where do you go from here . think it is just the but where do you go from here . think it isjust the beginning. Instagram isjust think it isjust the beginning. Instagram is just one think it isjust the beginning. Instagram isjust one platform think it isjust the beginning. Instagram is just one platform and very encouraging, that they have announced steps that they will make announced steps that they will make a safer place for people to visit. It needs to spread around the whole technology industry. If they are leading by example, others need to follow and follow quickly because the official 0ffice follow and follow quickly because the official office of National Statistics in this country say that Something Like on average, four School Age Children and their lives to suicide every week. That is four molly bill mac, four families like ours, four sets of School Friends whose lives are torn apart by an unnecessary suicide. Pressure is on to move swiftly and carefully, but to move swiftly and carefully, but to prevent the loss of future young lives by doing as much as they possibly can to remove content that may be harmful online and it becomes a useful place to look. A happy place to spend time and that is what we wa nt place to spend time and that is what we want when we are online. And how would you say you and mollys mum and older sisters are doing two yea rs and older sisters are doing two years on . Its not a very long time after a suicide. It will take, for the rest of our lives, we will a lwa ys the rest of our lives, we will always remember molly and have grief and regret but it will take time. Mollys sisters are amazing. How old are they now . They are 22 and 19 now. If im everfeeling low, they are the people i think about. And my wife similarly. I look at them and 90. Wife similarly. I look at them and go, that is how you do it. Keep going and be positive. There are a lot of good things still to look forward to, you just have to remember to get through the down times. And the good times will come afterwards. Is molly the first thing, the first person you think of when you wake up in the morning everyday . Not always, but often. Very soon after her death, there was probably a second when you woke up and as you came out of your sleep you thought, another day. And you didnt remember. It didnt take long. Then the dreadful memory of what you lived through came back. For the rest of your day you were living under a dark cloud indeed. It could have been longer, its living under a dark cloud indeed. It could have been longer, its three orfour could have been longer, its three or four seconds now and the periods of carrying on with a more normal life are getting longer as well. And when people ask how you do it, how do you cope . What do you say . You dont have a choice. We are lucky that she left us some notes. Not many people do. I think about a quarter of people when they choose to end their lives do. One of the things she did was live long and stay strong. I need you to do that. She wrote that . To us and her friends. She said to everyone to live long and stay strong. I will see you in a little while when you are old and grey. I think what she meant was to live long. Dont die like me. We will be reunited soon enough. She sounds really intelligent. She sounds really old. And she sounds like a lovely child. I would have loved her. Most people dead. Ian, thank you very much for coming on the programme. Trinity and aoife, thank you for speaking to ian. And ian, for meeting trinity and aoife. Thank you for all your time. if you would like help, please go to the bbc action line. Go online to bbc. Co. Uk actionline or you can call for free, at any time. They have loads of organisations and support that can help you, and if you just need somebody to talk to you just need somebody to talk to you as well. Still to come. Its being hailed as a triumph in the war on terror. But does the death of Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi the leader of the so called Islamic State group really mean that the threat from is is over . Well get the latest from our security correspondent Frank Gardner. And why should women whove frozen their eggs have just ten years to use them or lose them . Well hear about a new campaign to get that law changed. Well, weve heard from the eu now theyve agreed to grant the uk a three month brexit extension. Within the last hour, the president of the Eu Council Donald tusk tweeted this, saying britain can have a brexit extension until january 31st. But the questions everyones asking is are we going to get an election in december . You are probably not asking that but many in westminster are. The government will try and get the commons to vote for one later today, an attempt doomed to failure, it seems, because labour will not back it. But the liberal democrats and the snp have an alternative a bill to dissolve parliament this week so no time for borisjohnsons Withdrawal Agreement to be approved and hold an election on december 9th. Lets talk to tom brake is the liberal democrat mp for carshalton and wallington in london and the lib dems brexit spokesman. Neil coyle is a labour mp hes at westminster he doesnt want a snap election. And we also have conservative mp Geoffrey Clinton brown hes in south london and hes very keen to go to the polls. Good morning all of you and thank you for coming onto the programme. Just explain to our audience, tom brake, what the differences between the dates . You want an election on december the 9th and the government was offering december the 12th and we have had this breaking news this morning from the eu that we have an extension to january 31 so whats the difference . The main difference is the government wanted to ram through the scrutiny of the Withdrawal Agreement before the 6th of november. We said that is not sufficient time. Our proposal is simply about changing the fixed term parliaments act to enable a general election to happen on the 9th of december, and of course, now that the European Union, perhaps that commitment that we made to an election help the European Union deliver an extension to the 31st of january, thats part of what was required to deliver our bill and i hope another Prime Minister will seriously consider it. Does your bill guarantee the uk will not leave the eu without a deal . 0ur that absolutely, it locks in the extension until 31st of january. We can have a general election. What about after that . The outcome of an election is not certain but we think if we fight the campaign on the basis of, in our case, very clear remain position, given that the polls around the country currently suggest that a majority of people would prefer to remain, that could be the outcome of that election. You need brexit not to have been delivered by the time of the general election, dont you . If it is delivered there is no point in the lib dems any more. We dont brexit, so lib dems any more. We dont brexit, so yes, lib dems any more. We dont brexit, so yes, we lib dems any more. We dont brexit, so yes, we want to stop brexit. You have to have an election before brexit is delivered. From the outset, we have been campaigning from the outset to have a peoples vote which might still be possible. You know that has gone, it has gone. I dont know it has gone. There is no majority for it in parliament. There is still a prospect of that but in the absence of that and given the press pressure we are under the possibility, for instance, that the Prime Minister might be able to get his deal through, and at the moment he has got his deal through that is brexit done and dusted. Let me bring in neil coyle. Good morning. First of all, your reaction to the fact there is a brexit extension until january 31. It is to be expected and expected and welcome and Boris Johnson has been shown to be lying to the british people saying we were living when he knew it was not possible to leave on that date. You made sure of it by voting against it. Im happy to have done so because it would have been dangerous and damaging for the uk to have done so on and damaging for the uk to have done so on the terms Boris Johnson and damaging for the uk to have done so on the terms borisjohnson is proposing and i for one dont trust borisjohnson at all. Proposing and i for one dont trust Boris Johnson at all. Why the lib dems are queueing up to give him exactly what he wants is an its clickable. Labour has said multiple times it wants an election, so yes or no, will you vote for an election on the 12th or the 9th of december . My constituents deserve a better government, they have put up with universal credit. Will it be the 12th of december, the vote to take on 9th of december . 12th of december, the vote to take on 9th of december . I will not side with the lib dems and the tories and i will not vote for an election because it doesnt take no deal off the table. Johnson says, lets get brexit done. Then asked for a three month, in effect, prorogation of parliament to have another election. It is absolute nonsense. So, like borisjohnson, your actions, it is absolute nonsense. So, like Boris Johnson, your actions, the labour partys actions, dont match your rhetoric. You say you want an election but you do the opposite. Im afraid, as a backbencher in the labour party, you will not find i have been clamouring for an election. My priority has been a peoples vote which the lib dems and snp action knocks back at this crucial time. Ive been calling for a peoples vote and revoking article 50. Im not out to help Boris Johnson, thats not myjob, im there for the people on bermondsey on there for the people on bermondsey on and southwark. There for the people on bermondsey on and southwark. If we have to go to 2022 to do what . It is a five year election cycle. To make sure that no deal is taken of the table, then so be it. Whatjeremy corbyn has said over the weekend is that we will not be supporting a general election while there is a potential of no deal to happen, and nor should anyone in the lib dems or snp or anyone in the lib dems or snp or anyone who wants to stop that happening. How worried are you . The vote today requires 434 mps. Thats why people think it will fail because it requires two thirds of parliament to vote for it. Tomorrow if the vote goes ahead it needs a simple majority. How worried are you that there will be enough to have a general election on december the 9th . Welcome as i say, i wont be supporting that. I hope it is knocked back both tonight and tomorrow and i hope the lib dems and snp get back round the table with those of us who do want a peoples vote. 1 Million People didnt march foran vote. 1 Million People didnt march for an election, they marched for another site and until we get a new public vote, the general publics involvement in this crucial issue, it will not go away, the election will not solve anything. You might get five more lib dems and a handful more snp or whatever, thats Party Political interests, not national interests. As neil coyle puts it, why are you throwing a lifeline to borisjohnson . Why are you throwing a lifeline to Boris Johnson . We are not throwing a lifeline to Boris Johnson. Boris johnson . We are not throwing a lifeline to borisjohnson. First of all we are highlighting, as neil has done, borisjohnson pledged to do or die by 315t of october and there has been shot down in flames and we will not leave the European Union by then. You have highlighted that already and we knew that but go ahead. Boris johnson hasnt been keen to highlight that. We dont need him to spell it out, it became clear last week. So what we have done by this proposal for the 9th of december is ensure that we have locked in the extension until 315t of january. Locked in the extension until 315t ofjanuary. It locked in the extension until 315t of january. It doesnt take no deal off the table. You must be worried about that. From what neil suggested, he was suggesting Boris Johnson should stay in power until 2022. Im asking you about no deal. I think the best possibility of taking no deal, ruling no deal out, is to hold a general election. Taking no deal, ruling no deal out, is to hold a general electionm taking no deal, ruling no deal out, is to hold a general election. It is not, what if conservatives win a majority . The polls suggest there is a majority in the country for remain at the moment and if people exercise their choices in terms of how they vote in the coming general election and support candidates who are in favour of remain, if the polls are correct then we have a strong possibility that in the next parliament they will be a majority of mps who want to stop brexit. And either we of mps who want to stop brexit. And eitherwe can do of mps who want to stop brexit. And either we can do that through revoking article 50, which i would like to do and neil would like to do, or alternatively we can do that bya group do, or alternatively we can do that by a group of parties getting together to push through a peoples vote, which remains our policy and we have put it on the table. What if there is a conservative majority . there is a conservative majority . the conservatives win a majority now or in 2022, or if borisjohnson the conservatives win a majority now or in 2022, or if Boris Johnson gets his deal through, then we have brexit. And we might have no deal. We might have in 2022, which is what neal appears to be one thing. We might have a conservative government and we might have brexit as well. I think the only certainty is ruling out brexit. We have to have a general election that brings a parliament of majority remainers. There is no guaranteed route of stopping no deal. Let me bring in so Geoffrey Clifton brown, thank you for talking to us. Can you hear me . Ican, for talking to us. Can you hear me . I can, victoria, thank you. What is your reaction to the brexit extension to january 31 . It is pushing the can down the line. I think we need to get on with this for my constituents, british businesses, they all want to just get this thing done so that they can operate in a climate of certainty rather than this huge uncertainty and great cost to them all. 0k. An election on december the 12th or december the 9th. What would you vote for . Well, to be honest, both look unlikely. I think its unlikely we will get the two thirds majority today, the 434 members of parliament, when we have typically getting votes of around 300 and eight would seem unlikely. The liberals proposal is attached to a bill which can be amended, no doubt, to try and get a second referendum in that bill. We just want a general election so that the british people can decide this matter once and for all and we can decide this matter once and for alland we can can decide this matter once and for all and we can then move on as a country. So you want december the 9th . Is that what you are saying . We wa nt 9th . Is that what you are saying . We want an election as soon as possible. Will december the 9th do it for you . December the 9th would do it for us providing it wasnt hedged around a second referendum. That cant be guaranteed. Your bill can be amended, cant it . My understanding is that the bill, the weight is drawn, it is tightly drawn, and that amendments to, for instance, extend the voting franchise, for instance, would be out of scope for the bill, so im not sure thatjeffrey is correct that it could be amended in multiple ways. If it couldnt be amended, i dont want to bore our audience with process , dont want to bore our audience with process, so dont want to bore our audience with process, so Geoffrey Clifton brown, but if it couldnt be amended he would vote for an election on december the 9th . If it cant be amended and we can get an election on december the 12th it would be fantastic. December 12 is unlikely because labour will not vote for it today so im asking about the ninth. If tom is proposing a one line bill that certainly can be amended, as is my understanding, sol that certainly can be amended, as is my understanding, so i think thats unlikely. But lets wait and see. And how do you react to the fact borisjohnson has and how do you react to the fact Boris Johnson has broken and how do you react to the fact borisjohnson has broken yet another promise. The uk is not leaving the eu on october 31. He hasnt broken his promise. Hes been contradicted by parliament. He would have dearly loved, we would have all loved to have left the eu by october 31. So he broke his promise. He had no option. So he did break his promise . Parliament dictated otherwise and he would have dearly loved to have left on october the 315t but he was unable to do by law because of the benn act. Did he break his promise . Has he broken his promise to take the uk out of the eu by october 31 or not . We are clearly not getting out of the eu by october 31, others mustjudge whether he has broken his promise or not. He has done his level best to try and achieve that. Thank you very much all of you, we appreciate your time. We will see what happens in the commons later today. Coverage of that vote and we will see what happens tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that. Im bringing you this breaking news now that the truck driver Maurice Robinson charged in the case of 39 bodies found in that refrigerated container. He has appeared in court in the last minute or two via video link. Maurice robinson, the 25 year old truck driver from northern ireland, charged in the case of the 39 bodies found in the refrigerated container in grays in essex has appeared in court via video link and we will speak to our correspondence soon about that court appearance. The worlds most wanted man the former leader of the Islamic State group Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi is dead. A brutal killer, one who has caused so much hardship and death, has violently been eliminated. He will never again harm another innocent man, woman or child. He died like a dog. He died like a coward. The world is now a much safer place. Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is here. First of all, how big is this . The fa ct first of all, how big is this . The fact this man is dead. It is very big, there is an irony in us calling him the worlds most wanted man because he was the last thing the middle east wanted, he has wreaked appalling tragedy all over Northern Syria and iraq, thousands have been killed under his guidance in the most sadistic and brutal ways, lets make that clear. So the us and its allies, iraqi kurds, the government of iraq, Syria Democratic forces, have been hunting this guy for a long time. In the us case since 2010, 2011. For the last nine years he has galvanised what is left of alqaeda and basically hived it off into what became Islamic State in a and then this very effective writing force that took over the area of the size of belgium and ruled over a Million People. How did the americans kill him . It was an intelligence led operation, they had information from their own sources. They had human informants. They ca ptu red they had human informants. They captured some relevance no relatives of Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi and interrogated them and got tip offs from the iraqi kurds and acted on that. And the operation itself . The operation itself was conducted in huge secrecy. They didnt trust telling all their allies. They had to clear it with the russians they we re to clear it with the russians they were coming in because russia controlled the airspace. They didnt give turkey the full details because they dont trust turkey. They flew from erbil in Iraqi Kurdistan in eight special forces helicopters flying fast and low to avoid radar cover. They landed just before midnight under cover of darkness, fired at the buildings they suspected, got the right buildings, blasted a way through the wall because they knew the front door would be booby trapped, they had a firefight with some of the defendants. Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi hid ina defendants. Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi hid in a tunnel, he took three children with him, his own children according to the americans, detonated a suicide vest, blew himself and then up. Is this the end of Islamic State . Up. Is this the end of Islamic State . No, its not. The ideology that he masterminded and espoused continues. It has got sleeper cells and will vow to fight on in the middle east and it has got followers over here. But symbolically it is a blow to them . It is a huge blow to them, no question. When people have pledged allegiance to isis, they personally pledge it to him, to Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi, now theyve got to find a new leader. They will come it will be somebody you and i have never heard of, but its very unlikely that his successor will have the middle east and has got followers over here. But symbolically it is a blow to them . It isa symbolically it is a blow to them . It is a huge blow to them, no question. When people have pledged allegiance to isis, they personally pledge it to him, to Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi, now theyve got to find al baghdadi, now theyve got to find a new leader. They will come it will be somebody you and i have never heard of, but its very unlikely that his successor will have the same degree ofstrategic competence, battlefield experience, organisational ability and religious credentials that this guy Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi had. He will be very ha rd to al baghdadi had. He will be very hard to replace. Thank you, Frank Gardner, our security correspondent. The lorry driver charged in connection with the deaths of 39 people found in a refrigerated container in essex has appeared in court this morning. Maurice robinson is facing charges of manslaughter, conspiracy to traffic people and Money Laundering. Lets go live to Chelmsford Magistrates CourtRichard Listers there for us. It was a brief few minutes here in chelmsford, Maurice Robinson appeared via video link wearing a grey shirt. He confirmed his name on the date of birth, address and the fa ct the date of birth, address and the fact he is british. Otherwise, he said nothing. He has been charged with 39 counts of manslaughter, conspiracy to traffic people, conspiracy to traffic people, conspiracy to traffic people, conspiracy to assist unlawful immigration and Money Laundering. He was not required to enter a plea at this stage but may be asked to do so ata this stage but may be asked to do so at a future hearing. The next hearing will be at the old bailey exactly four weeks today. That was the situation here at chelmsford. Of course, the investigation itself is now very wide ranging, ranging from the Irish Republic through france, belgium, down to vietnam where it is believed that many of the victims originally came from. That process is very much under way at the moment. Altogether, four other people have been arrested in connection with this case, or rather three have been arrested in connection with this case and one has also been arrested on other charges, although he is named as a person of interest by essex police. Three people have been released on bailand three people have been released on bail and one person is still being held. Thank you, Richard Lister reporting live from Chelmsford Magistrates Court. Its a law which has been described as cruel and pointless now today marks the start of a Campaign Calling on the government to extend how long women can store their frozen eggs. The fertility and genetics charity Progress Educational trust says the ten year limit for eggs that are frozen for non medical reasons breaches human rights and has no scientific basis. The group claims an increasing number of women are now having to destroy their eggs or become a mum before they are ready. Lets now talk to carolyn. She paid for her frozen eggs to be transferred to spain before they reached the ten year limit and were destroyed. Shes asked us only to use her first name. Sabrina madew is with us she was weeks from reaching the ten year limit when she was granted an extension because of health reasons. Sally cheshire is the chair of the human fertilisation and and embryology authority, the uks regulator of the fertility sector. And director of Progress Educational trust Sarah Norcross is here. Welcome all of you. You froze your eggs when you were 37 and it cost you £10,000 why did you decide to do it . I was single at the time and i knew i wanted to have a family, and i thought it would give me another option in having a family, and it did. Tell our audience what happened. I met my partner when i was 40 and we tried for a baby when i was 41 and unfortunately i had four miscarriages at 41 and 42. Over that time, knowing that my eggs where there is a back up was a wonderful thing, it really helped me get through the Emotional Trauma of the miscarriages. I was lucky enough to fall pregnant with my fifth pregnancy and i had a daughter when i was 43. Sabrina, you decided to freeze your ex because of health reasons. Fill in for our audience what the background is for this. had a cancer scare and cancer runs in my family and my younger sister had it at 15 and my mother at 48, so i hadnt had children, didnt have a partner at the time and they said not to worry, Cancer Treatment can be delayed for three months, to have my eggs frozen. In the end i didnt have to go through the treatment but in order later not to be faced with delaying treatment, i decided to go ahead and have the eggs frozen then when i was healthy and they were healthier as well. And both of you reached towards the end of the ten year limit without using the eggs. So then youve got this dilemma of what to do because of the legislation in this country, which has this ten year cut off. What did you do, carolyn . I moved to mine to spain. The laws are different in spain. The laws are different in spain and they are able to stay there until im a bit older. Spain and they are able to stay there until im a bit older. spain and they are able to stay there until im a bit older. I tried to move them to spain, didnt get authorisation in time to do that but at the last minute i did get a reprieve because i was found to be prematurely infertile which meant that i could keep them for a longer period. Sally cheshire, what is the rationale for the ten year limit . Im sorry, i didnt quite hear that. What is the rationale for the ten year limit . It was put in place back in 2009. Why . That was seen to be a releva nt in 2009. Why . That was seen to be a relevant period at the time. Since then, there have been many developments in terms of the science of freezing eggs, which is much better, and lots of changes that we have seen in society over ten years and perhaps we have now come to the point where that law needs reviewing. What should the limit be . The limit, we dont really know what the limit should be. That should be a government consultation that we would implement if it happened. Baroness deitch brought forward a bill injune in the house of lords, baroness blackwood the Health Minister indicated support for the importance of the bill and is pressing the government for an answer so pressing the government for an answer so it may be that there is a consultation out relatively soon. Sarah norcross, what should the limit be . I think the limit should be the same as for women who have frozen their eggs for medical reasons, so frozen their eggs for medical reasons, so sort of rolling ten year extensions with a limit up to 55, which makes it simplerfor everybody to understand and it stops the arbitrary decisions and the pressure. Two different stories with the same thing butting against an arbitrary limit, and so by having something that is more flexible, it means that women arent rushing to do paperwork to get eggs out of the country at the last minute not knowing whether they are going to be able to. Sabrina, we appreciate you being here today because you have recently undergone surgery to help you conceive. How are you feeling about the future . Im not sure, not only was it for clinical reasons, as separate clinical reasons as well, it is unsure. My main concern is Going Forward for other women and families not to come up against the same issues. It may be too late for me. I dont know. Im taking that day by day. But Going Forward i think we are going to run into these problems more and more as women are encouraged to freeze their eggs and there will be more and more people coming up against the limit. By the way, the government says it has no plans to reconsider the law. That seems to be slightly contradictory with the message coming out of the house of lords from baroness blackwood saying she is thinking about a consultation. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, i suppose. Today they might not be thinking about changing the law and, you know, baroness deech says it might be worth having a consultation. Yes. Thats why we launched the petition today to get 100,000 signatures on yougov so that the government are forced to debate this issue regardless of what happens and what promises may or may not be made. Do you know why there isa not be made. Do you know why there is a ten year limit . Sally didnt seem is a ten year limit . Sally didnt seem to know. I was involved in those discussions and i think at the time, really i think it was because not many women were choosing to do it then and because the science wasnt there as well. So it didnt come up wasnt there as well. So it didnt come up as an issue wasnt there as well. So it didnt come up as an issue because i campaigned for mothers who are freezing their eggs for their daughters to become mothers and that was the exception but for those women in their situation that didnt come up. Thank you for your time. Lots of you getting in touch throughout the programme about our interview with ian russell the dad of 14 year old Molly Russell who took her own life after viewing material on instagram about suicide and self harm. If you want to see more of ian russels journey to the us and Silicon Valley where hes taken his campaign to clean up social media the full documentary is available now on the bbc iplayer. I really would urge you to watch that because hes done incredible work. This text says, my daughter is 14, attempted suicide in april this year, i have found a link on instagram. This site could be a place teenagers go to when they cant express their thoughts to their friends cant express their thoughts to theirfriends and cant express their thoughts to their friends and family. We do talk now and my daughter has help with the child and adolescent Mental Health service but this could have ended so differently if my daughter hadnt opened up to me and others by sharing her thoughts. Do go to the iplayer and watch ian russells documentary and if you need help from the action like it is bbc. Co. Uk action line. Thank you for your company. We are back tomorrow at 10am. Bbc newsroom live is next. It may have been frosty this morning, you have may have had to use the ice scraper for the first time this winter, autumn, but its a lovely start to the day across many parts, this is the satellite imagery, lots of blue skies across the uk. In the south west we have more cloud, some outbreaks of rain affecting the channel isles, through the isles of scilly and into the far south west of cornwall, a few showers in the north east of scotland. But for most you will keep the sunshine well into the afternoon and it will feel quite chilly, maximum temperatures up to about 911, 12 maximum temperatures up to about 9 11, 12 degrees. Tonight we will continue with a similar theme, the cloud and rain in the south west, still a few showers in the north east. Elsewhere, though, some clear skies. A bit more cloud across southern coastal counties tonight, temperature staying just above freezing here. Elsewhere, there will bea freezing here. Elsewhere, there will be a frost again going into tuesday morning. It will be another fine and sunny day for most. Just that cloud in the south west of england, a few showers in the north east. But for most, dry and sunny. Bye bye. Youre watching bbc newsroom live. Im Carrie Gracie at westminster. The headlines at 11 the eu agrees to britains request to delay brexit until the 31st of january meaning the uk wont leave as planned on thursday. It was a very short and. A very short and efficient constructive meeting. And i am happy that a decision has been taken. Here, mps will vote on borisjohnsons plan to hold a december 12th general election. If he loses the government may back lib dem proposals to hold an election three days earlier, on 9 december. Im joanna gosling. The other main stories at 11 Maurice Robinson a lorry driverfrom County Armagh has appeared in court, charged with manslaughter, Money Laundering and people trafficking, after 39 people