Transcripts For BBCNEWS Victoria Derbyshire 20240713

Hello its wednesday, its ten oclock, im Victoria Derbyshire at westminster. I think that its ourjob to get brexit done on october the 315t. This country will leave the eu on october the 315t. Well make sure that we can come out on the 315t of october. We are ready, on october the 315t. To come out on october the. Sist . 315t, correct, come what may. Do ordie . Do ordie. Despite all those promises, it looks very likely we wont be leaving the eu on october 31st. Mps have rejected the Prime Ministers fast track timetable for approving his brexit bill. Borisjohnsons government is now claiming that if the eu grants a long brexit extension then the only way forward is a general election. Parliament has made this decision, and parliament has asked for and extension from the eu, well then that we are waiting of course to hear what other eu leaders say about the situation, but we want to crack on, and if we cant crack on then, you know, regrettably, it does seem that a general election is the only way to sort this impasse out, however cold and inhospitable the next month might be. Labour seems to agree, saying they want a general election too. Labour would be calling for a general election once a no deal is off the table, because actually its only a general election that can, yes, sort out brexit, because a Labour Government would hold a public vote between a credible leave option and remain to finally sort this out, but also sought out all these tory created crises. Let me know what you want to happen next. Some breaking news this morning 39 dead bodies have been found inside a lorry container in essex. The vehicle is understood to have come from bulgaria. A 25 year old has been arrested on suspicion of murder. Well bring you updates throughout the programme. And away from brexit, a group of mps has exclusively told this programme that rules meaning some victims of childhood sexual abuse are denied compensation must be changed. This man didnt get a pay out after his abuse, but his brother did. A the abuse made me feel quite worthless and dirty, in a way. A i didnt feel like normal kids did, and in a way i think i tried to sort of destroy myself as well, by getting in trouble with police. I felt a bit like vermin, really, like people see rats. Hi, welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. It is cold and grey in westminster but dont worry about that. It wont only be about brexit, so dont worry. But it looks like brexit will not be happening on october 31, halloween. How do you feel about that . Im asking you on twitter. Shirls says, great, now all we need is peoples vote, to which linda has replied, we already had a peoples vote and yes we knew what we voted for. Rob tweets, its time to throw them all out. Susan says shes totally disillusioned with this country and will never vote again. Julie says, im very happy this is the most important legisaltion to be passed in my lifetime. It needs to be pored over and given thorough consideration. Julie believes the pm is a habitual liar no mp can or shld trust him. No mp can or should trust him. Actually weve had hundreds of messages from you on this. Kevin says, to be honest im hacked off. Well put some of your message to a political guest today but it is not a politics, dont worry. Time for the news with annita. Dont worry. Time for the news with annita. Breaking dont worry. Time for the news with annita. Breaking news, dont worry. Time for the news with annita. Breaking news, 39 bodies found inside a lorry, which police say they believe came from bulgaria and entered the country at holyhead on saturday. A man has been arrested, 25 year old man. We will have more on the story throughout the programme. Borisjohnson is understood to be pushing for a general election if the eu agrees a three month brexit extension after mps rejected his fast track commons timetable. Last night the governments agreement bill was voted via but the fast plan to get it through the commons were rejected. Voted for. A group of mps has exclusively told this problem that rules that mean some victims of sexual abuse are denied compensation must be changed. Those deemed to have consented to abuse despite being a child at the time are among those denied pay outs. More on this later in the show. The belgian paralympian, the 100 metre champion from the london 2012 games has died by euthanasia at the age of a0. She had an incurable muscular condition and it was said she would consider euthanasia if her condition continued. Vervoort enjoyed success in basketball, triathlons, racing. A trio of users have had instagram diet posts banned by the regulator. Tv stars katie price and Lauren Gauthier promoted a boom bod weight loss drink, while weight commies were also advertised. The regulator said the posts were responsible. Calls for investigation of all criminal drugs to consider decriminalisation to prevent rising use. Decriminalisation to prevent rising use. The mps said the governments position on drugs was clearly failing and called for a radical new approach in policy. The government said it had no plans to decriminalise drug possession. The duchess of sussex has made her first public appearance since revealing she and prince harry are struggling from the media attention. They were she was attending a Charity Event at the Royal Albert Hall and described her past year as a member of the royal family as hard and admitted she wasnt prepared for the intensity of tabloid interest. That isa summary intensity of tabloid interest. That is a summary of our menus. Back now to you, victoria, at westminster. Thank you very much. The story of those 39 bodies being found ina the story of those 39 bodies being found in a lorry in essex, home secretary priti patel has tweeted, shocked and saddened by this incident in grays. The police have arrested an individual and we must give them space to conduct their investigations. That was just treated by the home secretary, priti patel, into how and into the news that 39 bodies found in the back of a lorry in grays, which it is believed came in from bulgaria. We will start the programme by talking about brexit, you wont be surprised to hear. So what do we know today that we didnt know this time yesterday . Well, were extremely unlikely to be leaving the eu on october 31st. What do we know for certain about what happens next . Very little. Yesterday, a majority of mps voted in favour of the pms brexit deal in principle. But minutes later, they rejected the governments plan to rush the legislation through the house of commons, which means its going to be nigh on impossible for the deal to be approved in time for a halloween depature. Its now over to the eu to decide whether to grant an extension and what the terms of that extension would be. Borisjohnson has now paused the legislation, and has claimed he will seek a general election. He will need a majority of mps to back a new poll. Lets talk to norman on here. What happens next . The next move has to come from the eu so i am told they will meet pretty quickly and decide whether or not to get us an extension and i think the assumption is they will because if they said no that would in effect be shoving us out the door without a deal and i doubt they would want that on their conscience, as it were. So the likelihood is there will be an extension and i think they will get us extension and i think they will get us quite a long extension to pass the ball back to borisjohnson, say, 0k, the ball back to borisjohnson, say, ok, were giving you the time and space to decide what you want to do i space to decide what you want to do ,and all space to decide what you want to do , and all the mood music and language from downing street this morning as they are going for a general election and they are adamant about this. They say you cant trust parliament, doesnt matter if you give them 30 days, months, they wont back it. They call for a general election. Labour is all over the place. They say they can win it by presenting Boris Johnsons bill to the people. My ta ke johnsons bill to the people. My take is that a winter election is a daunting task. Is in the uk involved ina daunting task. Is in the uk involved in a nato summit in the first week of december . Then in the second week of december . Then in the second week of december, which may seem very trivial to many people, but most of the country is going to christmas parties. And it is blooming freezing. That matters because all the voters that my older voters, i suspect, will be less willing to go out when it is icy and slippy and what have you. People who doubt about that often might give it a miss this time, and probably a lot of people, they support will exit, brexit. There is a calculation there. Winter, nhs crisis. There are issues with a winter general election, and i just issues with a winter general election, and ijust kind of wonder, in the back of my mind, whether calmer heads in number ten will be saying, hang on a second, lets take a breath. Last night, before we got to that bout on the timetable, actually Boris Johnson to that bout on the timetable, actually borisjohnson won a pretty resounding victory of the broad principles, a majority of 30. Compare that to team may who was going down to whopping great defeats. Why not give it another crack . If you listen to what Boris Johnson actually said last night, he said he was going to pause the bill, not pull the bill. Well then i dont think theyve completely closed the door to maybe having another go. I kind of feel in the immediate aftermath, the rage and anger, a lot of testosterone going around, and they really want to go for it, but i just wonder whether cooler heads will prevail and they will think, 0k, will prevail and they will think, ok, maybe we will give it another go. I can almost smell the testosterone here, actually. Thank you, norman, good to see you. Andy on facebook says, an election doesnt fix any of this because any mps put in place will continue to have a mind of their own. At least another bout will tell the mps what to do regardless of their own bias and agendas. And another on facebook, a general election is the way forward, let the people decide because they cannot be bought. Another one on twitter. I remainer but my view is both votes last night went how they should. I am a remainer. I considered decision to accept, amend or reject can then happen. And tony says, delay, delay, delay. Are they hoping to brush brexit under the carpet thinking we will forget . David on twitter, relieved, and very was very worried Boris Johnsons deal and co nsta nt worried Boris Johnsons deal and constant lying would ruin the country for decades. We should have a second referendum, he says a proper one this lets proper one this time. Lets talk to former deputy Prime Minister, conservative damian green, who backed the goverment in both votes yesterday, and the labours shadow treasury minister annelilese dodds, who opposed it. Thank you both for coming on the programme thank you both for coming on the programme anneliese dodds. What is your view this morning . programme anneliese dodds. What is your view this morning . I am pleased we have had a withdrawal deal published an Parliament Voting in favour of a second reading, actually quite a significant step forward , actually quite a significant step forward, and picking up on what norman was saying, i am at the cool heads end of the spectrum. I think that actually the Prime Minister achieved several things. He has got the deal, the main thing, and he now has the house of commons to approve, in principle, the legislation, well theni in principle, the legislation, well then i think we have actually taken several steps forward and we should at some stage in the next few weeks to actually be able to deliver on the result of the referendum. What is your mood this morning, from labours point of view . |j is your mood this morning, from labours point of view . I have to say i am very relieved we didnt see parliament being bounced into rushing through this incredibly significant legislation that is going to affect our country for decades to come so it is quite right, i think, decades to come so it is quite right, ithink, that decades to come so it is quite right, i think, that we now look to have proper scrutiny of what is actually in that bill and we couldnt have done it according to Boris Johnsons timetable. Right, you said youre one of the cool heads, and youre clearly hoping that kind of mood will prevail in number ten. I wonder if you can help us number ten. I wonder if you can help us out. Why doesnt borisjohnson just give it a bit more time . M us out. Why doesnt borisjohnson just give it a bit more time . It is not entirely under his control, the governments control, because the governments control, because the government doesnt have a majority. Parliament passed the benn a which the government didnt want to happen. If he comes back and suggest a slightly longer timetable, then you could start properly debating and all the rest of it, you could vote for that. What is he scared of . I dont think he is scared of anything. He has had huge achievements in the last few weeks people didnt expect him to have. Sure, at the very, very first stage. Sigh ami sure, at the very, very first stage. Sigh am i getting an agreement with the eu and getting house of commons to vote for it is more than a first stage, it is quite significant yes, getting an agreement with you. For me the most important thing, rather than a particular date, although it does have to be fairly sooii although it does have to be fairly 50011 or although it does have to be fairly soon or delete my otherwise people will continue to hold parliament in some content fairly soon otherwise people will continue to hold parliament in some contempt. We iiow hold parliament in some contempt. We now have a deal. Lets implement that deal. Do you agree it is a bigger risk to go for a general election rather than bring the bill back and give it more time . |j election rather than bring the bill back and give it more time . I dont think it is a balance of risks. I think. I will propose a second referendum think. I will propose a second referendum pose think. I will propose a second referendum pose a second referendum pose a second referendum and this time pose a Customs Union which would be driving horses through the bill i will oppose a second referendum. I think the bill could be got through the house of commons in a relatively short time but obviously that involves opposition parties as well. Within spitting distance of october 31, we should be able to actually get out and get on with Everything Else everybody wants to do, and have an election. The strategy of an election first, you disagree with that, if that is indeed the truthful strategy . Sigh am i dont know what the thinking is inside number ten so i cant really comment on that but i think we are close to the fulfilment of getting a deal through parliament that parliament will pass that will meet the result of the referendum. Your party has voted twice at smi against having a general election. There are no more reasons against having a general election. There are no more reasons twice against having. Unfortunately there are reasons to say that we shouldnt be leaving the eu without a deal. Actually Boris Johnson, be leaving the eu without a deal. Actually borisjohnson, to try to persuade different parts of his party, was saying in the run up to this vote, well, actually, for example, to the erg, we can have this particular Withdrawal Agreement and leave on wto times, really chaotic brexit terms, during this implementation period. But about a general election, anneliese dodds. To me that is leaving open the prospect of no deal and we cannot have that and be responsible for our communities, for jobs in have that and be responsible for our communities, forjobs in our communities, forjobs in our communities, when we know from the manufacturers in particular quite how bad a no deal exit would be. We cant accept, until no deal is properly off the table. What does that mean, properly off the table . It feels like you keep moving the goalposts. It was october the 31st, stop that, january 31, now you are saying end of. This is not because a labour because my actions but is because we have a Prime Minister who is willing to say one thing. Labours actions. He has been saying to some of his conservative mps, there still will be no deal. If he hadnt said that we would be a very different place. If it had never been sent to the erg that we would leave on wto terms. What the lord chancellor said last night to the house of commons is that parliament can have a vote. If it looks like we are not going to get a trade deal, parliament could vote to extend that december 2020 deadline, a commitment made on the floor of the house of commons. With all due respect, however, you didnt answer my question, which was whether Boris Johnson has been saying to those extreme brexiteers within his own party that actually they will get their wto no deal outcome in the end. I dont know the answer to that but i do know what has been said in public by the government. Just to let our audience go, last night Robert Buckland said he could bring forward an amendment to let parliament have its say on any extension. A vote byjuly next year on whether the transition should be extended, and abide by it. Is that enough for you . We need to look at this in the context of all of the other amendments, and of course at the end of the proceedings yesterday evening, Jeremy Corbyn said to Boris Johnson, well, we want to actually work with you on a sensible timetable to look at the whole range of amendments that have come forward and unfortunately that was rebuffed. What does taking no deal off the table, forever, look like, in order for you then in labour to agree to a general election . We cant have a situation where. White might understand that but i want you to describe what it looks like. It involves not have a Prime Minister promising to some of his members that they will get that leaving without a deal in the end, and that has happened. The only way to get rid of that Prime Minister is to have an election. But we cant have a general election right in the middle of a period when we are faced with no deal. Ijust think that is irresponsible and as members of parliament we have to stand up i think forjobs in parliament we have to stand up i think for jobs in her constituency for our constituents and if we end up for our constituents and if we end up with a situation where we still leave without chaotic no deal i dont think that is acceptable. Sigh amii dont think that is acceptable. Sigh am i i mean, its perfectly clear, annaliese is trying to help , yes, it is publicly. They think under Jeremy Corbyn they will lose a general election. General election, let me ask you. Whetherjanuary, february, spring, Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of labour, would you win . I hope we would win that election because. Why cant you just say yes . Because im not some kind of incredible future reader that can perfectly predict what will happen. It just sounds like perfectly predict what will happen. Itjust sounds like you are not very confident. I want us to win and when at the last election people heard whatjeremy at the last election people heard what jeremy wanted to at the last election people heard whatjeremy wanted to say and what labours policies were, people came in huge numbers towards labour and i wa nt in huge numbers towards labour and i want that because my goodness we need to change this government, but we cant have it with no deal hanging over us. Your party reckons it isa hanging over us. Your party reckons it is a party of economic credibility, that the nation can trust your party and your government with their finances. You are a former deputy Prime Minister and know how important that reputation is and youre also a former work and pensions secretary and know how tough people in our country are finding it financially because of ten yea rs finding it financially because of ten years of austerity, potentially because of universal credit, many people having to use food banks. Why are you voting for a deal that according to another former work and pensions secretary, amber rudd, would hurt the economy between a 6 . There were various economic projections, some of which have been proved wildly wrong. That was the government was my own analysis. Fine, but the government because my analysis has been proved wrong in the past. The treasury was producing evidence before the referendum shall not be right. You are saying Boris Johnsons deal is not going to make people poorer . I campaigned for remain and voted for remain but people voted to leave the European Union in the full knowledge of what that meant and i think it is a democratic duty to meet that. What the last few years has shown me, is hugely important as our economy is, so hugely important as our economy is, so is our democracy, and people are in dangerof so is our democracy, and people are in danger of losing faith in democracy. And a price worth paying is. I democracy. And a price worth paying is. I dont know. Democracy. And a price worth paying is. Idont know. It is interesting that you say out now because the chancellor, as you know, is not going to provide any Economic Impact assessment of what Boris Johnsons deal will mean for people. If it was beneficial, he would have published it, wouldnt he . May be, but frankly i would be equally sceptical about Economic Analysis that said, we can be sure it will add 3 over five years. The longer out you push economic forecasts, the more you are sticking your finger in the wind. You dont want us to do that . From my own experience of businesses both big and small, in my own constituency and elsewhere, they are saying that there is a sort of wall of money waiting to invest in this country, and now more than the fear of no deal is the uncertainty of this process that is actually preventing investment that would help us. Ijust wonder if preventing investment that would help us. I just wonder if a little bit of you died when you read the chancellors letter explaining why he wasnt bothering with an economic assessment. Something that cannot be measured solely through spreadsheets and impact assessments, important though there. Sci am i com pletely important though there. Sci am i completely agree with that. Are you kidding me . Yes, i completely agree. Economic analysis is important, of course. But not enough to publish on this deal . It is not an exact science. If a labour chancellor had written that you would be pouring scorn and co nte m pt you would be pouring scorn and contempt all over it i have been around long enough to be sceptical about Economic Analysis and forecasts. As you are a former immigration and policing minister i wa nt to immigration and policing minister i want to ask about the investigation going on now in essex after 39 bodies were found in the back of a lorry, a lorry said to be from bulgaria, just a brief reaction before we get more from our correspondent. My first reaction is a human reaction, this is absolutely terrible, horrible tragedy, and it shows how important it is to try to make sure we discourage people from what sounds like people trafficking, but, you know, as a former police minister, i know if there is a Live Police Investigation you shouldnt see Police Investigation you shouldnt see say very much so i wont go any further than that. Thank you both, anneliese dodds, from the labour party, and damian green from the conservative party. Lets talk to our correspondent about the 39 bodies found in that lorry. Lisa, can you fill us and on the latest . It was an Ambulance Services who called the police at 1 30am, and they found this container, lorry, at what Industrial Park which is in grays, they called the police and they then found all the people in they then found all the people in the container, 39 of them, were dead, 38 adults and one teenager, we think. At dead, 38 adults and one teenager, we think. At 25 year old man from Northern Ireland has been arrested on suspicion of murder. I am told there will be a News Conference in us there will be a News Conference in us in essex at 1130 this morning, but meanwhile the chief superintendent Andrew Marriner has said, this is a tragic incident where a large number of people have lost their lives. They say they are in the process of identifying the people, but that will probably take a long time, and we believe the lorry has come from bulgaria and that it came into holyhead on saturday, and obviously there are links the police are investigating with holyhead and with bulgaria. We have heard from witnesses who said that they were going past at that sort of time in the early hours of the morning and saw a police chord in stopping people going across, ca rs in stopping people going across, cars parked across the road, blue lights everywhere. They say this is a place where lorries often pack up, and we now know that there is going to bea and we now know that there is going to be a Major Investigation here. 39 people who have died, and we are waiting to find out more. Thank you very much, lisa, and obviously show you the pictures there of the lorry container on that Industrial Estate in grays. Still to come on the programme. Compensation rules for victims of abuse must change, according to a Cross Party Group of mps. Well speak to sammy woodhouse, who was abused by a rotherham grooming gang but was initially told she couldnt get full compensation because she hadnt been manipulated into a relationship. And should some drug offences be decriminalised . A report out today suggests they should. We will talk more about that later. On the investigation into the deaths of those people in the back of that lorry, by the way, the Prime Minister borisjohnson lorry, by the way, the Prime Minister Boris Johnson has lorry, by the way, the Prime Minister borisjohnson has said his thoughts are with the families. Lets talk to some more mps about what should happen next. We have similar but not as many as i was expecting. You can make up for them gillian keegan, a conservative mp whos backed all the governments brexit deals both under theresa may and Boris Johnson. Alistair burt, former conservative minister for the foreign office, who is now sitting as an independent. He too supports the Prime Ministers deal and that short timetable. And kirsty blackman, the snps deputy leader at westminster, who voted against the deal and timetable last night. We were expecting labours clive lewis but he is not here, something obviously happen, but thats ok. Ki rsty obviously happen, but thats ok. Kirsty blackman, are you eager to help Boris Johnson get kirsty blackman, are you eager to help borisjohnson get a general election if that is what he wants . What we are really eager for is for an extension to happen because if we have a general election at this point in time, we risk having a no deal. What we have done all of the way along strike to ensure a thing that doesnt happen so that extension is key at the moment, we need to secure that so we have security and the cliff edge is not going to happen. What do you think will happen next, Alistair Burt . |j am really in a land of doubt now. And what you think will happen next, Alistair Burt . With the legislation, i think his chances of winning an election or that bit better if we have secured brexit on the terms he has aggrieved and leave then. On the other hand agreed. On the other hand it sets up a challenge and with elections you cant be sure, to be quite honest. You never know what will happen well then i think if you seriously want to get brexit through perhaps it is better to baghdad then go on foran perhaps it is better to baghdad then go on for an election after that. As to what i think will happen better to bag that then go on. Every day slightly different. What about you, what is your instinct . My instinct is hopeful he will have spoken to europe last night or this morning and hopefully they will have agreed a short extension, 1 2 weeks. Even ken clarke said we need only probably three, four days more. This legislation, the time does not seem enough scrutiny. Most of the 110 pages was actually very similar to the 597 pages we had already read previously, well then there were three main clauses that were different so you could really focus on that where the scrutineer needs to happen. So i hope we can get it done. The British Public, i think, they had super saturday, a bit disappointing obviously. They had yesterday. I think most people really do want us to make progress now to stop it is so divisive across the country. Most people apart from the country. Most people apart from the snp probably do want that. I voted to remain myself. In fact i think we all voted and campaigned to remain, but there is something about accepting a vote, which, you know, both alistair and i have done and ki rsty both alistair and i have done and kirsty hazard, which is different because she represents scotland and the scottish party, but there are a of people in scotland without it and in fact more people in scotland voted to leave than voted for the snp so there is something that it just wouldnt be democratic to vote. On that scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain and we have moved even more to remain and the snp have been absolutely consistent in this and with consistency we delivered our best ever european result this year. Sure, but lets not go over history. You saw the commons last night. For the first time, a majority for a brexit deal. Some people saying, look, he is in touching distance. You must be worried about that . The worst thing about last night for me is that it got over the line because 19 labour mps voted for it. This is a bad deal, worse than theresa may because my deal, and things like the attacks on workers rights, im incredibly surprised the Labour Party Members of the labour party chose to support that. Without taking clive lewiss job, they were firstly also representing areas that voted to leave and your position is partly based on the fact scotland voted to remain so it is not unfair labour mp should do that, and as far as rights are considered in the future, this will be up to the uk parliament. I think saying to constituents recently, if you dont want to see a lowering of standards, workers rights, then dont vote for party suggesting that, but for the highest possible standards, and i think that is what the conservative party in the future will do. Lets move why move it out of the legally binding bit . The theory as we can choose what our own rights would be, as some areas in european law are not as good as ours, animal welfare, maternity rights, well we should make our own rules and it will be up to the British Public to choose the parties that will be the best. There is no reason standard should be lower, down to choose lower standards. Green i dont trust the conservative party to deliver better workers rights, i trust the european. Welcome i dont trust. You to trust the workers to deliver better workers rights. Trust the workers, honestly. The workers of this country would not put up with lower rights. We have 3. 8 unemployment. I read somewhere the other day they are paying for transport and meals to try to attract people. There is a lot of competition for workers. Trust the workers. No way, none of us might would ever put up with lowering working rights. To be honest, you say conservatives with lower workers rights, it is lazy politics. Of course we wouldnt. I certainly wouldnt stand on that manifesto either. You can see why a number of mps wouldnt trust Boris Johnson. They just want to avoid they want to revoke or remain, they wa nt they want to revoke or remain, they want a second referendum, not even on theresa mays deal or against this, they want a referendum just to remain or revoke, that is it and hiding behind every possible excuse. Borisjohnson, i hiding behind every possible excuse. Boris johnson, i look hiding behind every possible excuse. Borisjohnson, i look to you and remember you are an independent rather than a conservative, Boris Johnson has broken yet another promise, we are not leaving on october the 31st, it looks like. Does that damage him electorally . Everyone has seen how hard he has tried and the progress he has made. Everyone has said he needs no once no deal, he clearly doesnt, he has tried hard to get a deal and he has tried hard to get a deal and he has got one, the eu has agreed some new conditions and it has got to parliament. At least the first age, he seems to have support for. Before we revelled on the business of trying to get a deal and there was an ideal situation, i met with the Prime Minister. Im quite convinced he wanted a deal. We passed the legislation, the benn act, i lost the whip, because we wanted to make absolutely sure that nobody in the team would make sure no deal was a default situation that anyone would accept, so i think that accelerated the discussions. I think he has proved he wanted a deal and i dont think october the 31st is fatal for him. If we are able to leave the European Union, which we obviously can do, he has demonstrated he will do that. I dont think anyone who wants to leave the eu will not vote for borisjohnson wants to leave the eu will not vote for Boris Johnson because wants to leave the eu will not vote for borisjohnson because it doesnt happen on october the 31st. M for borisjohnson because it doesnt happen on october the 31st. If he does come back with a longer timetable and parliamentarians go for that, kirsty blackman, timetable and parliamentarians go forthat, kirsty blackman, how timetable and parliamentarians go for that, kirsty blackman, how will you seek to amend that in order to stop it going through . We will look at what comes back in terms of the timetable and consider the timetable that comes back. We need to have appropriate scrutiny. Are you going to be honest with people . You want to be honest with people . You want to stop it, the scrutiny doesnt matter, you just want to stop it. We absolutely do. Then why are you using this excuse to say we want to scrutinise it. In december 2016, we put forward the compromise position, to stay in the customs market and freedom of movement. But if you are saying if a Customs Union would attach, a softer brexit, you would vote for it . We will do everything we can to make sure amendments go through that make things less bad. If the amendment of a Customs Union is attached, would you vote for it, the snp . I would not be keen to support anything that was just a Customs Union. Customs union and second referendum . Customs union. Customs union and second referendum . We will consider everything that comes forward. Second referendum . We will consider everything that comes forwardm second referendum . We will consider everything that comes forward. It is not even a yes then. I cannot speak on behalf of all 35 snp mps. We need to have that discussion. You personally . I am quite keen on there being a second referendum and uk is leaving the eu, to have a Customs Union, Single Market and freedom of movement, anything to soften the damage from any outcome of brexit but im not keen on supporting Boris Johnsons deal. It is clear, three and a half years we have been talking about it. Some have accepted the democratic vote is democratic and some havent and they try and slice and dice it either by scrutiny or it is not a good deal. Actually, this deal isjust or it is not a good deal. Actually, this deal is just to get to the first base, to negotiate the future arrangements. Everybody talks about it as though this is it, the end. It is not, it is the beginning of the next phase. Number ten talk about it being the end. Parliament will get to vote on it, that is the other thing that happened yesterday, parliament will get involved in the next stage. Is it a good deal . We have a binary stage. You just ignored my question. Have a binary stage. You just ignored my questionlj have a binary stage. You just ignored my question. I was coming to that. If people want to see brexit delivered, they will vote the deal and if they dont, they wont. You can go into the deal a hundred different ways and you would change but my strong is that 28 states have, for the second time, agreed a deal for the United Kingdom to leave the eu and if parliament overturns that, what on earth is it looking for . You get to the next stage, there is much to be negotiated and that will really determine whether it isa that will really determine whether it is a good deal or not for the uk as you go forward. Quick final word. We have been consistent in our opposition, scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain and it is reasonable to do what we can to make sure scotland because my voice is heard in this regard. Thank you, if you see clive lewis on the way out, tell him we are appear. Missed his chance. I have just tell him we are appear. Missed his chance. I havejust been tell him we are appear. Missed his chance. I have just been told it was ourfault, mr lewis, it was nothing to do with you. And to be our fault thank you very much all of you for coming. Lets get more on the breaking news that 39 bodies have been found in lorry container in grays in essex. The Prime Minister says he is appalled by this tragic incident and went on to say he is receiving regular updates from the home office and will work closely with essex police as they establish exactly what is happen. My thoughts are with all those who lost their lives and their loved ones. Ellis whitehouse is a reporter with the essex echo whos on the scene. Thank you for talking to us, what can you tell us . Essentially, we got the update from the police from their media centre this morning, 39 bodies being found, 38 adults, one of them a teenager, at the waterglade Industrial Park in grays in essex. I came down here immediately so as it stands, i am at the edge of the Police Cordon into where the crime scene has been discovered. There is a lot of activity. The police havejust moved some of their vehicles from the Eastern Avenue entrance and are moving down to another part of the site and i have been told we will be allowed access into the site at around 12 30pm to have a further look at what on earth is going on inside there, as it is very difficult to tell at the moment. You said one was a teenager, do you have any said one was a teenager, do you have a ny clearer said one was a teenager, do you have any clearer idea on how old . U nfortu nately, any clearer idea on how old . Unfortunately, no, the police have not yet disclosed the ages of any of the bodies that have been found. All we know is that one is in their teens and police will give us more information in about 15 minutes when they do everything at grays police station. We know the lorry is from bulgaria, do we know the nationalities of any of the 39 people who have died . Unfortunately, i dont think so, no, it is all. I wish i could be of more helper time given on what the police have been told can give us, but we know they are all adults apart from one teenager and a man from Northern Ireland has been arrested on suspicion of murder. We know the lorry came from bulgaria and it has now been discovered in tilbury, in essex, so my guess is they have come from the channel but i cant make any guarantees, it is just my hypothesising. We are very grateful, thank you very much, ellis. Rules that mean some victims of childhood sexual abuse are denied compensation must be changed, mps have exclusively told this programme. Those with an unspent criminal conviction thats a conviction thats still on your record or victims deemed to have consented to abuse, despite being a child at the time, are among those denied payouts. Also exempt from the governments Compensation Scheme are those whove suffered non contact forms of abuse for example children who are groomed into performing sexual acts online. And victims only have two years to claim after reporting their abuse, which mps say is an unrealistic timeframe. In a moment, well talk to sammy woodhouse, who was groomed by a gang from the age of 1a, and raped, but was initially denied full compensation. Lets hear davids story first. He and his younger brother were both abused by their older half sibling when they were children. Davids younger brother was awarded £11,000 compensation, but david was refused it because of a decades old conviction for conspiracy to commit robbery. We have changed his name and, just to let you know, his story is upsetting. He would abuse us physically and mentally, and he worked his way up to abusing us sexually. He would sort of get in bed at the side of me, and then cuddle up. And then he would start. Abusing me. He was like a bogeyman in your childhood, nightmarish dreams. As i got older, the abuse made me feel quite worthless and dirty, in a way. I didnt feel like normal kids did. In a way, i think i tried to sort destroying myself as well by getting of destroy myself as well by getting in trouble with police. I felt bit like vermin, really, like people see rats. A lot of times, most nights i drift off to sleep thinking about my childhood and it led to being where i was in that prison cell. That seemed to be where my life was heading. I did turn my life around when i came out. I got two lovely kids. Im so proud of them. Youve got me crying now. One evening, my younger brother came to see me at my house and he just came out with im gonna go and see the police. And i asked him why. And he said its because his elder brother had abused him as a kid. And i knew nothing about that. Ijust thought hed abused me. But when i found out hed been abusing my younger brother. It destroyed me. Right there. Well never forget what he did to us, well be living with that for the rest of our lives untilwe die. Money, no matter how much money they give me, will never take my thoughts and nightmares out of my head during the day and the night. Itd help. But in a way, more than the money, it will signify that the actual government are accepting that the way it turned out is the way it was set all them years ago that you had no control over it. You will end up in prison. Youll end up getting into the place. Into trouble with the police. Youll end up how a lot of people do whove been abused. Thank you for your messages. This person who doesnt leave their name on twitter says it is ridiculous, how can a child consented things they see as normal . I was sexually abused as a child but i didnt realise this until adulthood. People sometimes commit crimes as a result of the abuse they have suffered. This viewer says i was abused for four years as a child, i am not a victim, i do not give my abuser that neither do i need financial compensation. That would not bring back my childhood nor enrich my adulthood. Gary said there is an urgent need to change, survivors of abuse need justice, not to be penalised against even more. We will talk to Sarah Champion in a moment, a labourmp, who talk to Sarah Champion in a moment, a labour mp, who has led this report from a group of mps across different parties. Lets speak to sammy woodhouse, a survivor of the rotherham grooming scandal. She was just 1a when she met a man called arshid hussain, who was ten years older than her and the ringleader of a child sex abuse gang. She was raped by him scores of times and was 15 when she had his child. He was eventuallyjailed for 35 years along with his brothers after being convicted of multiple offences including rape, abduction and indecent assault. Thank you for talking to us. What happened when you applied for compensation as a victim of arshid hussains crimes . Well, i applied for compensation after the court case so, at this point, i had proven ina court case so, at this point, i had proven in a court of law what he had done and, as you said, he was sentenced to 35 years so i applied for compensation and received a letter back and the letter basically said that i had consented to my own abuse and rape and that they didnt see it as being anything wrong. Can i quote from that letter . I think our viewers will be pretty shocked to hear what was written. You were given compensation for one incident of nonconsensual. This is graphic language for anyone who has got children around. You are given compensation for one incident of nonconsensual penile entrance to the anus. They were not satisfied that your consent was falsely given as a result of being groomed by the offender, the evidence does not suggest you were manipulated or progressively lurid into a false relationship. How did you feel when you read that . I felt like i had been kicked straight into the teeth. When i got this letter, i was probably in what i can describe as a sta ble probably in what i can describe as a stable place compared to times when i had depression and i was suicidal and it made me think, if i had got that letter when i was still suffering from depression and was suicidal, would i have taken my own life and the answer is, yes, i probably would have. It is such a damaging thing to do, to actually send a letter saying, actually, it is your fault. You send a letter saying, actually, it is yourfault. You know, it could have had massive consequences. But also, they were wrong, whoever looked at your application actually thought that you are responsible and therefore they didnt understand the law, which is if you are under 16, in the eyes of the law, you cannot consent to sex with an adult, it is legally impossible. And it actually states in the letter, they were going against what the law clearly states. Let me read the statement from the ministry ofjustice, they say victims of child sexual abuse showed immense bravery coming forward and it is vital they receive every support possible to recover from their ordeal. That is why we have increased funding for emotional and practical support twice this year and the total amount for victims is nearly double since 2013. Through the victim strategy, we are making improvements at every stage of the process including reviewing eligibility for compensation and improving the court experience. Do things have to change now, today . Yes, they do and it is not good enough. I hear all the yes, they do and it is not good enough. I hearall the time yes, they do and it is not good enough. I hear all the time how things are improving and getting better. No, it is not, they arejust telling people that to save face. I have been campaigning around that for two years have been campaigning around that for two yea rs now have been campaigning around that for two years now and we are at the exact same stage, they are co nsta ntly exact same stage, they are constantly punishing and blaming victims and children are still being criminalised when they are being exploited. Why is it always the victims fold . I dont understand why we are in a country that co nsta ntly wa nts to bla me ra pe victims and protect rapists and paedophiles. Thank you very much for talking to us, we appreciate your time. Here now is Sarah Champion, the labour mp for rotherham who has led this report by a group of mps from across different parties looking at the experiences of survivors of childhood sexual abuse. And Natalie Marrison is here, head of abuse and personal injury at ramsdens solicitors. Welcome, both of you. The ministry ofjustice are reviewing this now, do you welcome that . Of course i welcome it because the system is totally broken but i have been raising this for years and years and they are constantly about to do something. The changes we are looking for a really simple. They could implement them immediately, they dont need to change the law, they dont need to change the law, they just need to they dont need to change the law, theyjust need to change the guidance and give a really clear indication that we need to be doing support survivors of sexual abuse. And change the guidance to what . There has been a ruling by a judge, therefore you should automatically be entitled to apply to the criminal injuries body to get the compensation. Ajudge injuries body to get the compensation. A judge has injuries body to get the compensation. Ajudge has ruled in your favour so why are you having to give the same evidence over again . It is all there in the court files and basically it is a psychological change, these people have been damaged by the system and it is our duty to enable them to rebuild their lives, whereas, at the moment, it seems really adversarial. It is almost as though they are trying to steal money off the government from the very agency set up to help them rebuild their lives. How often you see people being rejected and for what reasons . We see them rejected monthly. The survivors we represent have a real challenges and they face those challenges due to the time limits. We often get rejection saying they are out of time in their applications, unspent convictions, nothing linked to this at all, or it could be a catalyst of this. The mha tells us, in terms of the unspent criminal convictions, ie one is still on their record the ministry ofjustice. The government says the rules exist to show the applicant may themselves have caused distress, loss or injury to another person through the offence or offences for which they were convicted. Does that make sense . Offences for which they were convicted. Does that make sense7m relation to child sexual abuse, no, it doesnt. These people have been abused as children and as a result of that, there is real trauma that will continue through their lives. Are you saying it is an explanation for those offences . It often is and we see it in a large proportion of cases. The other thing that frustrates me about that particular case is it is well documented that pa rt case is it is well documented that part of the grooming process, when you are going to exploit children sexually or for running drugs you are going to exploit children sexually orfor running drugs is you are going to exploit children sexually or for running drugs is to make them have a criminal record, so they are less credible for the police and less likely to go to the police and less likely to go to the police and less likely to go to the police and report on their abusers. So to use that well documented, acknowledged technique by abusers, to then have it against the victim when they are trying to get compensation, it is obscene. Especially when they are encouraged to report as early as possible, so they will be down on their record as unspent convictions. If a victim of sexual abuse themselves commits a sexual abuse themselves commits a sexual offence, should they still qualify for compensation . Sexual offence, should they still qualify for compensation7m sexual offence, should they still qualify for compensation . It is really difficult. What i would like is rather than a Government Agency making that decision, i would like there to be an independent panel so someone can there to be an independent panel so someone can look at the case holistically and make that decision. What we are really seeing is somebody who has a shoplifting offence, something entirely unrelated, that they then seize on to not pay and can i say about the compensation, the people who have been through a court case, they have had to take time off work and it is well documented, we did a big inquiry early in the year, the abuse affects you psychologically, it affects you psychologically, it affects your relationships, your education, your employability, Major Mental Health issues and these people have had to pay to deal with that and the state should compensate. And the cica is lumped together, so child sexual abuse is lumped in with all of the other criminal offences, there is no distinction. Thank you. I want to ask you about brexit, you are one of the 19 labourmp ask you about brexit, you are one of the 19 labour mp rebels who backed Boris Johnsons the 19 labour mp rebels who backed borisjohnsons legislation in principle, although you voted against the timetable. Why are you voting for legislation that will make your constituents poorer . dont know that it well, we are speculating on what will happen and we dont know what the future will do. What im trying to do is give as much certainty as i can. So having a deal in place gives a degree of certainty but, also, im employed by my constituents to represent them and, overwhelmingly, 68 , they voted to leave and i have seen no change, so to leave and i have seen no change, so my personal views are kind of influencing what i do, but im employed by rotherham and im there to respect what rotherham ones. Government analysis found from earlier this year, yorkshire and humber, with the kind of Free Trade Agreement that Boris Johnson humber, with the kind of Free Trade Agreement that borisjohnson says hes hoping to get, there would be a a. 5 drop in Economic Activity in your area. I have said all along, i dont see a positive coming out of this. What i am trying to do is mitigate the damage. The other thing is. Although you did suggest in the summer that you would rather go for no deal than losing brexit. will but what it is implying, you arejust will but what it is implying, you are just talking about economics, thatis are just talking about economics, that is not why everybody voted to leave. Everybody had a range of reasons. Economic is one, but it is not for everybody. Have you been abused and bullied for the way you voted . Abused and bullied for the way you voted . From the very, very start of this process. By colleagues . By all sides of the house . Including your own labour colleagues . Yes, people have very, very high blood at the moment and they are venting it and it is not helpful. What we need to be doing is working cross party to get the dealfor this be doing is working cross party to get the deal for this country. Thank you both very much for coming on the programme. If you have been affected by the issues in our discussion about being a victim of child sexual abuse, do go to the action line website because there are loads of organisations that can help you. Lets get more on the breaking news that 39 bodies have been found in lorry container at an Industrial Park in grays. Police believe the lorry is from bulgaria and entered the country at holyhead on saturday. Early indications suggest that 38 of the victims are adults and one is a teenager. Prime minister borisjohnson has said, im appalled by this tragic incident in essex, i am receiving regular updates from the home office and will work closely with essex police as we establish exactly what has happened. My thoughts are with all those who lost their lives and their loved ones. Priti patel has tweeted that essex police has arrested an individual and we must give them the space to conduct their investigations. Home Office Immigration officials will be working closely alongside them to establish how this horrific event came to happen. There will be a News Conference by essex police, we are told, at 11 30am and obviously we will bring you that on the bbc news channel and the home secretary will make a statement at the pm cues at 12 30pm after Prime Ministers questions. Damian green a former minister, was speaking to us earlier and he gave his reaction to the news of those 39 bodies found. My my first reaction is a human reaction, it is absolutely terrible, horrible tragedy and it shows how important it is to try and make sure we discourage people from what sounds like people trafficking. It asa sounds like people trafficking. It as a former police minister, i know that if there is a Live Police Investigation, you shouldnt say very much so i will not go any further than that. I think we can talk to pete walker, who is at the scene. Talk to pete walker, who is at the scene. What can you tell us . Hello, victoria. I am standing at the entrance of a Logistics Company of the watergate Industrial Estate. There is accordion, not only the blue and white police tape but also green cord and, like baked big trampolines that have in place, so we can barely see inside where the activities, although a few cameramen are climbing up and poking their lens through the gaps in the fence. There is a helicopter above, i know the bbc copter was dispatched at some point this morning but the drone overhead which might be part of the Police Forensic work, i can see a flat tent up as well and police activity. Im going to have to leave you there, we are coming to the end of the programme. Good morning, we have had some fog across central and southern areas this morning. A bit of fog and mist developing further north across england as well but, for many northern and western areas, we have some sunshine at the moment. This is the scene in peterborough where we have some sunshine but the cloud is increasing across east anglia and cloud will further increase across the midlands and into the afternoon, some outbreaks of rain in the south east of england. Further west and north, outbreaks of rain across western scotland and Northern Ireland which will move eastwards. Maximum temperatures this afternoon getting up to 13 16 but you notice the rain in the south east will become a bit heavier and more persistent for a time as this band of rain moves eastwards. Quite a messy picture into thursday morning, lots of cloud around, some rain, not as cold as last night. Temperature is about 6 11dc but throughout thursday, rain will be around central and eastern parts, lingering on in the south east into the afternoon, further north and west some sunny afternoon, further north and west some sunny spells, also some sunny showers and some gales in western scotland. Goodbye for now. Youre watching bbc newsroom live its11am and these are the main stories this morning. Police say 39 bodies have been found in a lorry container in essex the driver, a 25 year old man from Northern Ireland, has been arrested on suspicion of murder. Police believe the lorry is from bulgaria and entered the country at holyhead on saturday. Borisjohnson is understood to be pushing for a general election if the eu agrees a three month brexit extension after mps rejected his fast track commons timetable. We want to crack on, and if we cant crack on then, you know, regrettably, it does seem that a general election is the only way to sort this impasse out. Labour will be calling for a general election one is no deal is on the table. And ill be at westminster, bringing you all the updates from here throughout the morning