Nowadays. The ayes to the road, 308, the noes and we have run out of time. Youre up to date dont tell me that with the headlines. So we have to end right there. Now on bbc news its hardtalk. To the left, 322. Does mike to the dont tell me that. Alfred bosch, its been a pleasure to have you in hardtalk. Right. The uk is set for another brexit thank you very much. Delay after Boris Johnson loses a vote to rush his deal welcome to hardtalk, im stephen through parliament. Sackur. Last week, the whole of i will speak to a Member States about their intentions until they europe heard a howl of rage coming from catalonia. Since spains has have reached a decision. Until we have reached a decision. Until we have reached a decision, i must say, scored sentence nine we will pause this legislation. Pro independence politicians to a americas top diplomat in ukraine gives damaging testimony collective 100 years in prison, about Donald Trumps dealings with the countrys president. There have been mass, sometimes turkey and russia strike a new agreement to force kurdish violent protests there have been mass, sometimes viole nt protests across there have been mass, sometimes violent protests across the region, which have left hundreds injured. Madrid says there can be no political dialogue into catalan hello there. Tuesday was a fine day up hello there. Tuesday was a fine day up and down the country with plenty politicians condemned the violence of sunshine around and a bit warmer and rain in the militants. My guess early in the south, thanks to a todayis and rain in the militants. My guess ridge of High Pressure that will be today is senior catalan minister, alfred bosch. Where does the co with us on wednesday morning that we have a weather system to the north west of the country and a Independence Movement go from here . Weather front across the south east. Rain and strong wind across the north west to begin wednesday, perhaps a couple of showers in the south east elsewhere a dry start to the day with mist and fog around. A chilly start temperatures will rise as we head through the morning as we see sunshine around. Best of sunshine into the afternoon across the midlands and south west with more cloud and you showers in the south east, increasingly wet and windy across the north and west and alfred bosch, welcome to hardtalk. That applies for Northern Ireland. Temperatures 13 15. Through wednesday night it turns wet across thank you. In the past few days we the eastern side of england and the have seen sustained violence on the streets of barcelona and some other weather front across the west slide cata la n streets of barcelona and some other catalan towns and cities as well. South east woods and merge with the would you accept the last week or so other one so it will be damp and cloudy for england and wales on thursday morning. With a milder has actually been a negative for start to the day. But windy and your cause, the cause of catalan clear for the north west. Low independence . Well, its been negative for everybody. Nobody pressure anchored to the north of the uk but it looks like it would even through the day turning windy upper parts of scotland and northern well, it has been ireland. Gale is developing. Of negative for everybody. Nobody likes clashes. Showers which may be heavy and thundery to the day. Further south in that will be a weather front sliding eastward taking the cloud and rain with it, even in its wake, nobody likes to see these images in the streets of barcelona sunshine and couple of showers. The or other cities. Nobody likes it. But at the same time, wind picking up across northern western scotland at 16 mile an hour it has been extremely negative because what unfurled, what provoked all this was the jail dust to temperatures of 111 15 in the sentences for nine people who were sentenced to a hundred years injailfor organising a vote. South. It starts to look like we that is something that i call negative in the 21st century europe. Will see colder air invading the its not acceptable. Northern half of the country as we its completely unacceptable. So there is outrage. Head on into friday. A bit milder in it did not come as a shock, the south where we will have this feature running up the atlantic in surely not come as a shock. The south west, an area of low 0sha, and an weather that will leave quite the court clearly ruled and an weather that will leave quite a bit of rain in places. Windy that the independence referendum held in 2017 was illegal and the declaration of independence across north of the country with low from the Regional Government that followed soon after was both illegal pressure nearby so scales and and deeply offensive showers. After a dry start for the of the country looks like it will to the spanish democratic system. Turn much wetter and the rain will be quite heavy across northern who can say that voting is a crime . Western areas of the bumps cool air across scotland and Northern Ireland there will be sleet and snow over who can say that . There will be sleet and snow over the high ground to again, another the courts ultimately can say it. Mild day in the south east. Still in a democracy you have to accept the judgement of the highest court wait as we head into saturday, in the land. Particularly across parts of england and wales are mainly over the hills but then it turns dry to sunday then im sorry, stephen, but the courts are twisting around the law. Turns cold for all areas. With the rain through friday and saturday to kill across the high ground and voting cannot be considered illegal in a democracy. Could lead to localised flooding and 00 04 09,817 4294966103 13 29,430 travel disruption. Voting about the political future of a community cannot be possibly seen like that. Isnt this we in the first few minutes of the conversation, have laid out the fundamental problem. You do not accept the legitimacy of the spanish constitution, the spanish courts and the rule of law. Look, there is the act of union in the uk of 1707 that says england and scotland will remain united for ever after. It says that. Now that is like the grand of the united kingdom. It gives rise to the united kingdom. And despite that, politicians, when there is a clamour, a demand, a massive demand from millions of people to vote about the future, in this case about a catalan republic, then politicians have to respond. And they have to find a way, like they did in scotland, like they did in quebec. Because. Lets not get too tied into other comparisons. Lets. The truth is, if one wants to gets to this point quickly, the Scottish Referendum only took place after the British Government had sanctioned it and, indeed it is interesting that in the last few days, the leader of the Scottish National party, nicola sturgeon, the first minister in scotland, has made it quite plain that she will never call a referendum without the sanction, the authorisation of the British Government. I dont know. Alex salmond said other things. The fact is that scotland voted, quebec voted, despite whatever rulings the Supreme Court did in canada. So you are not. . Sorry, stephen, if i could talk. I am sure you will counter my arguments better if i can talk a little bit. In catalonia, the problem is that the Spanish Government has never, never ever agreed to hold dialogue on this. Not before the referendum, not during the referendum, not after the referendum. Not now. And were asking for them to sit and talk. And thats basic. Of course we want to talk with the spanish governmen but they are refusing any dialogue on this. And instead of that they are sending people to jail, they repress the people, they crack down on Police Brutality and send people into exile. They suspend the Catalan Government, they dissolve the Catalan Government. Is that legal . Do you think that is something that should be accepted in constitutional law of the 21st century in europe . Do you think its proper . Many people in spain and beyond will think it is perfectly proper for the Spanish Government to say that they will not be intimidated into a dialogue. And if one looks at what has happened in recent days, 288 Police Officers have been injured in clashes. Of course hundreds of civilians in catalonia have been injured too. Two people are in a gravely Critical Condition as a result of the violence. I have seen it myself, and you have on television, the masked demonstrators hurling rocks and molotov cocktails and other makeshift missiles at police lines. This is what has been happening, which again it suggests you do not respect the rule of law. You may interpret this but thats your opinion. Now, yes, there have been serious clashes. Almost as serious as, for instance, the england riots of 2011 when a young man was killed and the whole country erupted and buildings were set on fire. That has not happened. You are talking about dialogue. We are talking, this is dialogue. This is intimidation. Intimidation is the opposite. Intimidation is refusing to talk. To sit and talk, something as simple as that. Because dialogue is the best way to quieten and cool down spirits. Ifi if i may, i want to ask a simple question. And not doing it is the best way to inflame spirits. Simple questions and answers. Lets try that. Why did it take leader of the catalan Regional Government three days to come out and specifically condemn the violence that had been raging for three days on the streets of catalonia . The first clashes took place on monday evening. He came out on tuesday evening. His definitive denunciation actually took more than 48 hours. We are against the violence. And we condemn all violence, wherever it might come from. And i am a member of the government and i tell you we have condemned it because it does not favour our cause, as you were saying at the beginning. It does not favour anybodys cause. We have always condemned violence. And let me tell you one thing, because i think its useful to understand what is going on. Friday night and saturday night you had potential clashes with radicals and the police. And thousands of people, ordinary citizens, risked their bodies to get in between, thousands of people. That is catalonia. That is the country i am proud of. That is the people i am proud of. That is what we have been doing for years despite the provocations. We have peacefully demonstrated. Thats my country. And ifeel proud of my country and so moved. And what do you say a is what say to the thousands of catalans who have actuallyjoined a demonstration saying enough is enough. We want this to stop. Have lost their ability to go to work because the transport system has been shot to pieces in recent days, they have seen their business lose money, to recite close, visitors staying away. This is costing catalonia millions of euro. What do you say to all of your people who are materially losing . You want to talk about the economy . Lets talk about the economy. In the last seven years, this independence process, this democratic process, because we want to vote about this and not impose it upon anybody. We want to vote, that is not difficult to understand. In seven years there has been an economic boom in catalonia and the economy has gone up. Unemployment has dropped below the spanish average and the airport has been booming, the tourist industry has been booming so dont establish a relation between a political general claim for voting about the future and the economy. Because both things have been prospering at the same time. What i am getting to, i suppose, is that right now catalonia is a deeply divided and polarised society. Would you accept that . There are differences and that is precisely why we should vote. When everybody agrees 100 . Sorry . Let me finish. When everyone agrees 100 , you dont need to vote. When there is a difference, that is when you need most the vote. And that is what democracy is about. Solving difference with a vote through a clash. I wonder if you have learnt any lessons from 2017. The point of a referendum in 2017 is that you need to turn out of 43 . Most potential voters in catalonia the catalonian people, they did not accept the legitimacy of your vote. So an illegal vote is surely no expression of true democracy. The law as being twisted around all the time. People who enabled other people to vote. My predecessors in the Catalan Government theyre being dealt with as criminals. But in the 57 of catalans who refused to vote in that poll in 2017 . What say to them . Come on, come on, come on, stephen. Usually there is 30 of people who dont turn out at any election. So lets be fair about this. The turnout was under what we would have liked, obviously. But remember, a referendum was disrupted by Spanish Police troops. 15,000 Police Troops were sent to disrupt the referendum. And now saying when that referendum was disrupted by police, that it is not valid because it was disrupted by those who did not want it to be valid, i think that could be even a little bit cynical. Just a little cynical. If you are interested in building bridges with the National Government in madrid, i wonder if you are prepared to listen to the words of the Prime MinisterPedro Sanchez. Mr sanchez is not regarded as a militant nationalist. And in many ways he is seen as a moderate when it comes to dealing with catalonia. He said this in the wake of the violence. He said what is needed before dialogue between us and the catalans is dialogue and healing within catalonia itself. Catalonia must enter a dialogue with catalonia and what is now at stake is not the territorial integrity of spain, but coexistence within catalonia. 80 of the people in catalonia want to vote. 80 of the people in catalonia think it is unfair to put people injail for their ideas and political actions. We have Political Prisoners in spain and that has been denounced by the United Nations through the working group of arbitrary sanctions. They say release the Political Prisoners, pay compensation and initiate an independent investigation. Civil rights are being seriously violated. Seriously, is that moderate . Do you think that preventing people from voting for the future, do you think that refusing to sit at a table to talk, do you think that is moderate . Let me Say Something about Pedro Sanchez. He gave us some hope. Yes, even in the spanish parliament. We contributed decisively with our parties to change for mr sanchez. Because we thought we had to give him a chance. Now sometime after that we feel frustrated because mr sanchez kept the government prosecutor in the trial, accusing these nine prisoners of crimes which are not acceptable in the modern world and which asked for charges which are strikingly similar strikingly similar to the final sentences. Do you see Prime Minister sanchez as an enemy now . Well, he has certainly deceived us, but he can correct his course, obviously, he can sit down like were sitting here and Start Talking about the future and how we can get a democratic solution to this instead of keeping people injail. And as i was saying, of giving direct orders to the government prosecutor which is given orders and instructions by the government and telling him to ask for very severe penalties which finally have been the ones imposed on these people. It is a shame in modern europe. Let me shift focus for a moment away from your relationship with madrid to the wider context. I know Pedro Sanchez myself. I was sitting next to him in spanish congress. We may return to him, but lets now. I know he can be very brave and pragmatic but hes not doing it, hes not delivering it right now. Lets talk about other leaders in europe. You are the minster for foreign action, as its known in the catalan Regional Government. Youre in a good position then to tell me why youve had so little support from leaders across europe, since the sentencing and since the violence of the last few days. Hardly anybody amongst european leaders expressed any sympathy at all for catalan independence. Well, the other day i was in slovakia, and the people in the parliament there expressed support, mr milan kucan, first president of slovenia. I pointedly said leaders. Milan kucan, first president of slovenia. Crosstalk. Stjepan mesic, well known president of croatia, 41 senators in france, 52, and you know france is not very much for independence. Foreign in the Catalan Government why have crosstalk. If i may say so, youre cherrypicking. Heres the Eu Commission official response. If fully respects the spanish Constitutional Order including, crucially, the decisions of the spanish judiciary. 0ur position has not changed. This is and remains an internal matter for spain, and if you want to talk about the uk, well, youve obviously just been because here you are in london, you will know the europe minister says that, her majestys government here in the uk, our position on catalonia is clear, this is a matterfor spain. The uk strongly supports the rule of law and it remains clear that political leaders, like anyone else, have to abide by the law. The spanish courts. I would love to reply to this. Well, you will. The spanish courts, he says, are transparent and robust. Eventually, when you give me the chance dont you want to hear . This is what european governments are saying thats why i would like to reply to it. Spanish courts are transparent and robust and they have handed down these penalties according to spanish law. Governments tend to stick together, thats a universal rule. The European Commission is a Government Club. Now, ijust was in westminster right now. People from all Major Political parties in britain were there. I spoke to them, and they all think this is a shame. They all think, and they conveyed me their opinion, that this is unacceptable. And these sentences, i can tell you, we can feel that, just look at the editorials. Financial times, washington post, le monde, they say that spain, the kingdom of spain, the Spanish Government and the powers of state in spain, should correct the course. First because its unacceptable morally, but second, because its a huge mistake for spain itself. It does not help. It can just makes things worse. And we dont want to make things worse we want to make them better itjust seems to me, if i may say so, that you are seeing enemies in madrid, youre seeing enemies amongst what you call the Government Club in europe and maybe its time for self reflection and to recognise that you in the catalan Political Leadership have made some serious mistakes and i would therefore point you to the words earlier this week from the former catalan leader, highly respected in catalonia, artur mas, who said, i accept we have made three key mistakes in the Independence Movement. He said, we were in too much of a hurry without timeframes, we lacked internal unity in catalonia and we underestimated the strength and resolve of the Spanish Government. Do you accept artur mas analysis of where youve gone wrong . We did one mistake. Believing that democracy was enough. And that if we got the people to vote, that would be respected. And that would take the Spanish Government to the negotiating table to talk about the future. We did that mistake. Now, how any mistakes can you. I would like you to engage with what artur. Crosstalk. Please, stephen, stephen. No, i would really like you. Let me talk for years, artur mas said your movement. The thing is, this might be hardtalk, 0k . But trying to talk to the Spanish Government is not even hard talk, its hard without the talking, because they dont want to talk. So there you can see a huge historical mistake because if they resort to repression, to cracking down on the people when theyre in the act of voting, when they resort to putting people injail, pushing them into exile instead of dialogue, theyre making a huge mistake. That doesnt help. And that doesnt help to quieten down the spirits of the people. That doesnt calm down or cool down whoever is frustrated, whoever is outraged. It goes in the different and in the wrong direction. And that is what people all over europe and the world are saying right now. So when artur mas makes some space for catalonian self reflection and maybe even an extent of self criticism, youre not interested in going there . Well, look. The blame is all for others, not at all for you . I have my own opinion which coincides with the opinion of the present government of catalonia. So what i think is that whatever mistakes we did, and everybodys human, now we must proceed and we must go forward. And the best way to proceed is, and the best way to keep spirits calm, which is what we want, because this is a movement which has been peaceful during seven years, and it has to be like that and we want it like that and were peaceful, hard working people, weve proven it the best way to do that is to talk. Crosstalk. Can, can. May i ask a question . And to talk about. We have a proposal. We are sitting at the table waiting for somebody else but theres an empty chair. And we have a proposal on the table and its quite clear. Now, theres nobody on the other side and theres no proposal which is even worse, which is even more serious. Whats the proposal of the Spanish Government . What are they suggesting . What is the project for catalonia and for spain . Crosstalk. They dont have one, ask them, ask them. Lets see what you get from them. Well, of course we interview the Spanish Government, too, but ive got you in the studios so im going to ask you. Given that the opinion polls through the course of the summer show a decline in support from independence, youve never been over 50 but now youre substantially below 50 . That depends on the polls. 44 in the most recentjuly poll, as reported by reuters, 44 of catalans in favour of independence. In that context, why is it that your leaders, including mr torra and maybe yourself too, are saying that there may have to be another democratic exercise . I guess you mean another referendum on independence when you know madrid will regarded it as illegal and when you clearly are running against opinion in your own region . Because thats the only sensible reasonable way to find a solution. So is that your proposal . Another referendum . Of course, an agreed referendum with international validation. And youre saying that were not enough. Um. If thats the case, which i dont know because we didnt have a referendum without disruption, which is what we want, now, if that is the case, what is the problem . What is the problem for the Spanish Government who doesnt want independence . If were really under 50 , theyre going to win. So let them grab the chance, let them go for it. Its their chance in history to win this and get it done forever. But isnt the onus upon you as the leadership in catalonia, to be a little bit more creative than that . You know madrid is not going to authorise another referendum. No, we dont know that. With respect, there is nothing that has happened or being said in madrid that would give any indication. Stephen, neversay never, neversay never, in politics or love. Its a mistake. Do you not fear that your movement is going to get stuck . That you are going round the same argument, you are not winning friends or new advocates in madrid, youre winning no new friends in europe or indeed across the world. You, right now, with this attitude of yours that we must have another referendum, we must push for independence again, 00 23 32,382 4294966103 13 29,430 you are stuck