Transcripts For BBCNEWS Victoria Derbyshire 20240713

With just hours to go before that crucial eu summit begins, can Boris Johnson deliver a brexit deal in time . The dup say no to borisjohnsons brexit deal, are we heading for another lengthy delay . Also, a headteacher who was convicted last month of running an Illegal School has told this programme she is determined to keep it open. I have been teaching for 15 years, andl i have been teaching for 15 years, and i have seen how children may be need a different approach, and that is what we are trying to do at ambassadors, and this is why i believe in what we are trying to do, because we have seen a lot of results within our children. They are happy. This is the chief inspector of schools, why cant she shut down the Illegal School . We will ask her. Hello, welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. Later we will be speaking with Louise Ellman, the mp who has quit the labour party after 20. 22 yea rs the labour party after 20. 22 years as a labour mp. That is when she was first elected, in fact, back in1997, she was first elected, in fact, back in 1997, she has been a party member for 55 years. She isjewish, she has told us that anti semitism is mainstream in the party and it is no longer a safe place forjewish people. My interview with her will bejust after 10. 30. We will be speaking with Extinction Rebellion protesters in a moment and hopefully commuters as well. Do get in touch on all the stories were talking about use the hashtag victoria live. Good morning, everyone, Boris Johnson has suffered a blow to his proposed brexit deal as the Democratic Unionist Party says it cannot support plans as things stand. The backing of the Northern Irish party is seen as crucial, if the pm is to win parliamentary approvalfor the deal the pm is to win parliamentary approval for the deal in time for his 31st of october deadline. The dup said it would continue to work with the government to try to get a sensible deal. The Prime Minister will be heading to brussels later where he was hoping to sign off a deal with other eu leaders. Its understood other outstanding issues have largely been agreed between the uk, ireland and the eu, but the refusal of the dup to back the deal as it stands throws into jeopardy the planned coreography of todays summit. A headteacher prosecuted for running an Illegal School in south london has told this programme shes determined to keep it open. Ambassadors high school in streatham wasnt registered with the government and is only the Second School to be prosecuted. Headteacher nadia ali was also found by 0fsted to have wilfully neglected the safeguarding of pupils. In the next half hour, well be bringing you the headteachers first tv interview. Stay with us for that. Climate protesters have targeted londons transport system this morning, causing disruption at three tube stations in east london, and delays across the network. There were angry scenes as commuters dragged an Extinction Rebellion protester from atop a jubilee line train at canning town. Activists also glued themselves to train carriages at shadwell. British transport police say a number of arrests have been made. Extinction rebellion says the disruption was necessary to highlight the emergency knife crime offences recorded by police in England Wales have hit a new record high, according to new figures. In the 12 months to the end ofjune, there was a 7 increase. There was also a rise in gun crime and recorded robberies. But the office for National Statistics also says the number of murders involving knives has decreased by 14 . The veteran labour mp Louise Ellman has quit the party, saying Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to become Prime Minister. In a letter, the mp for liverpool riverside mp said shed been deeply troubled by the growth of anti semitism in labour in recent years. The party says itstaking robust action to root out anti semitism. And victoria will be hearing from Louise Ellman on the programme shortly. Stay with us for that. Passengers on a British Airways flight which filled with smoke mid air have told the bbc they are still experiencing breathing difficulties two months on. Ba said it was waiting for the outcome of a spanish air accident investigation, which is examining why the cabin of the flight from heathrow to valencia in august filled with smoke shortly before landing. 0ver the counter genetic tests can easily be misinterpreted and should not be relied on solely to make health decisions. Thats according to experts who say the dna tests, which promise insights into ancestry, disease risks and personality traits, commonly provide false results. The scientists from the university of southampton urge gps to put results in context for patients. So, Extinction Rebellion activists targeted the London Underground this morning with disruption at three stations in east london. Have a look at this, footage taken and shared by commuters show activists climbing on to a train at shadwell station, while commuters have been seen dragging protesters from the roof of a train at canning town. Police say arrests have already been made and officers are working quickly to resume services. Sadiq khan, the mayor of london, in a statement has strongly condemned the Extinction Rebellion protesters and called the illegal action extremely dangerous. This was the scene at shadwell station earlier where there were protesters both on top of a train and stuck to the platform. Some commuters were engaging with the protesters, urging them to try other methods to raise attention instead. We will talk to claire farrell, right here, spokesman for Extinction Rebellion, first, correspond and Richard Lister is at canning town. As it comes down . Is it still going on . It has calmed down, things running normally again but really there were very dramatic scenes as we saw this morning, when these protesters climbed on top of the train, that had pulled into the jubilee line platform, here at canning town. Above ground situation, they were not under the ground. So that made things a little easierfor the ground. So that made things a little easier for the protesters to get onto the top of the train. They u nfu rled onto the top of the train. They unfurled a banner, they were up there for 20 minutes or so, in that time, as more people came onto the platform, commuters on the train got out, and tensions started to considerably rise. People were throwing things at protesters from the platform, shouting abuse at them. People jumping up the platform, shouting abuse at them. Peoplejumping up trying to grab them by the legs and eventually one person grabbed one of the protesters by the leg and pulled him from the train. Another commuter got on top of the train and chased him along the roof of the train until eventually they were brought off as well. There was considerable disruption and once one of the protesters was on the ground, it looked as though some of the commuters were certainly abusing him verbally but also were attacking him physically. Station staff doing their best to calm things down. Pretty ugly scene for a while and i spoke to the young man who was filming and Live Streaming the incident for Extinction Rebellion, he described himself as an independent journalist asked to film this by the organisation. He says he, too, was attacked, lying on the ground, trying to protect himself for a good 25 seconds as people were kicking and punching him. Ugly scenes at canning town but things back to normal now. Lets s talk to Clare Farrell from Extinction Rebellion. This is dangerous what are you playing at . The people in danger are the protesters, the alarm was pulled, the people who have been harmed are the people who have been harmed are the protesters who made themselves vulnerable. By taking this act. The passengers were not in any danger, they were delayed however. I think people are doing this out of desperation because they understand we are so very vulnerable to the situation. If one of your members was injured in the course of a protest like that, you say it would bea protest like that, you say it would be a price worth paying . protest like that, you say it would be a price worth paying . I am not saying that, i did not do the action, but i know that people have done these actions with absolute attention to make sure that the public are safe, and people who do them are willing to put themselves in those positions. The public arent safe, if someone is on top of arent safe, if someone is on top of a tube train, the public are not safe. Why not . How can they be, the train does not usually drive around with people on top of it. Its not going to move, they have pulled the alarm. They did a very similar action in april, with the dlr train, with a man in his 80s, sat on top of the dlr, eating his sandwiches. Peaceful, calm, non violent. Iwould say that this has been the same process that Extinction Rebellion activists have gone through, it is no different to the action. But what has happened is that the anger has ensued with the public, and, i mean, when people talk to us about civilisational collapse, which we all have heard this, from many experts, i wonder what people think civilisational collapse looks and feels like . I dont think it is going to be a calm situation for people to live through. That is clearly what we are facing. The imf, mark carney, credible people. We do not have a fringe opinion here. You have a lot of support from people up and down the country, one commuter we have spoken with support you, but does not support that kind of protest, because they think it is dangerous, and disrupting peoples lives too much, and drawing in Police Officers who probably have Better Things to do. Yes, and we have been disrupting people now for nearly two weeks. This is what you do when you think that absolutely everything is at stake. What would you do if you knew that your children were in a burning building . You would break down the door. It would not be pretty, he would not be able to do it in a way that everybody thought was nice and calm, this is an emergency. We have seen no sense of the emergency in this country since the government admitted there was one in may. Zero action, zero recognition of the fact that we are facing a total disaster. Sadiq khan says the action is illegal, for a start. Extremely dangerous. Counter productive, and causing unacceptable destruction to londoners using public transport to get to work. We understand that. The tactics we have chosen to use our peaceful, non violent and disruptive. That is exactly what these people have done today. They are illegal, he is urging you to protest within the boundaries of the law. The people who take actions on protests are willing and ready to be arrested, they will face the consequences, they do not run away or cover their faces consequences, they do not run away or cover theirfaces or consequences, they do not run away or cover their faces or try to get away with something. The point is, these people are willing to put themselves out there in harms way, because we know that we are all in a grave risk. Nobody is engaging with, emotionally, what that really means. Some politicians would say they are, and would wholeheartedly support what you are doing but with these particular demonstrations, do you think somebody will get hurt . |j particular demonstrations, do you think somebody will get hurt . I hope not, clearly somebody has been heard, people have been kicked and punched on a train platform. We understand putting ourselves in these positions and putting ourselves out there are spokespeople is potentially dangerous for us. But, what else can we do, really. We have been out on the streets for 11 days, there has been no response from the government apart from to put a section 1a blanket ban on members of our Group Standing in any public space, as two or more people, as an assembly, is classed as illegal. Police have arrested a 17 year old the other day, stopped and searched and arrested for carrying some stickers in his bag. This is a very serious situation and we are seeing a serious response. Thank you very much. Your views are welcome. Get in touch by e mail. Borisjohnson has suffered a blow to his proposed brexit deal as the Democratic Unionist Party said it cannot support plans as things stand. Lets talk to norman. What is the spanner in the works . All mighty big spanner, i have to say, borisjohnson all mighty big spanner, i have to say, Boris Johnson is all mighty big spanner, i have to say, borisjohnson is going to brussels today, all the signs where he was going to get the deal. Now, thatis he was going to get the deal. Now, that is off the agenda, the dup has said, we are not up for this. If the dup are not up for customs proposals that they are talking about, then they will not be able to sign off on them. More than that, it raises the question about whether this special saturday sitting of the commons will be going ahead, if he does not have the dup on board, he does not have the dup on board, he does not have the numbers to get a commons majority. I would doubt very much thatis majority. I would doubt very much that is going to happen either. And, it is not just that is going to happen either. And, it is notjust a minor technical discomfort for the dup, it is a profound issue for them. It centres on this question of, can the Northern Ireland assembly, stormont, which isnt yet up and running again after more than two years, can they have a say, a cheque, over the new arrangements. The eu have said, ok, we will let the Northern Ireland assembly have a cheque. The way they ought to do it is through a simple majority. If members of the Northern Ireland Assembly Vote in favour of the arrangements and vote to roll them over every four years, fine. That is all you need. Not fine for the dup, their concern is that you could get a majority of nationalist members of the assembly working with smaller parties, in other words, they could form a majority, and the unionists, even if they were unhappy with the arrangements, could not do anything about it. What they are suggesting is getting a majority, both nationalist community and unionist community. Why it matters is, for them, this is about the union, they are a great fear is they are locked in an arrangement they cannot get out of it and they are sucked ever closer to brussels and dublin and ever further away from. Can it be resolved in the timescale . Well, what we do not know is whether the dup are just playing hardball well, what we do not know is whether the dup arejust playing hardball or whether this is a red line. We know they are incredibly tough negotiators, is thisjust they are incredibly tough negotiators, is this just another little twist to crank up the pressure on Boris Johnson, little twist to crank up the pressure on borisjohnson, and the eu, to eke out more concessions . Is this for them a no go area, they are simply not prepared to put at risk the union, generally, we do not know, because none of them are answering their phones, talking to people, they have gone into complete lockdown at the moment. As things stand, unless they do a sudden about turn in the next 48 hours, it does not look like borisjohnson will get a deal or the vote in parliament will go ahead. Conservative mp Geoffrey Clifton brown joins us now from westmisnter. Westminster. Will borisjohnson have to be ready with another billion pounds for the dup . What do you reckon . It is hard to know exactly how things are going to pan out today. Clearly, negotiations have been going on all night, and the dup have concerns about the consent issue, which norman was talking about, and the vat issue. Hard to know whether these are just negotiating ploy is, as he says, or whether they are deep seated concerns that the dup are prepared to scupper a deal, at least in the short term, about. Nobody knows that. Other than the negotiating parties. Do you have an instant . My instinct is, given that we may not get this thing done as has been said, by the time of this summit, we may have to come up with some other arrangement to get it done by the sist arrangement to get it done by the 31st of october, to give everybody time to sort out this very tricky Northern Ireland boulder problem. There are solutions, i think, it may not be that we can do them in the Time Available. You feel that with more time, the dup could be persuaded on this consent issue . believe they could, because i dont think the dup, at the end of the day, are going to want to end up com pletely day, are going to want to end up completely scuppering this deal. Well they have done it before, so why not . They have, but with goodwill and particularly with a Prime Minister that is genuinely trying to bring them on board, and has their concerns at heart, i think they have the best chance, they are likely to get, with coming up with a deal that is satisfactory to them. If they get an alternative political solution, they may find a deal that suits them far less than the one available on the table. Could you vote for the deal . It is very difficult, we need to see the detail. No one outside the negotiating team has seen the text, so it is difficult to comment. You are not going to vote against whatever the deal is, with Boris Johnson at this late stage, for the reasons you have outlined regarding the dup. I have always been, my sta nce the dup. I have always been, my stance on this matter has been it is infinitely preferable to leave with a deal than without one, my instincts are more than likely that i would but nevertheless, you cannot make a responsible decision of 1s constituents, until one has seen an actual text of what one is voting. What if the dup are not on board, dont get on board, then we may see other colleagues of yours, other conservative colleagues, particularly in the European Research group, peeling away from this deal, do you worry about that . Ido,i this deal, do you worry about that . I do, i talk to all my colleagues all the time, there are a significant number in the er g who have said that they will vote for a deal if the dup are happy about it, and therefore, the dup carries not only themselves but a number of conservative mps as well. Erg. That is why this issue must be resolved and why it may take a little longer than the Time Available for this particular european summit. Back to our viewers this morning you would say, we are unlikely to leave, we are not leaving on october 31, despite the do ordie leaving on october 31, despite the do or die promises . Im not saying that at all, the zeitgeist on the other side of the channel has changed from what it was, they are now keen to do a deal if it can be possibly done because they think thatis possibly done because they think that is infinitely preferable to the uk crashing out without a deal. Mechanisms may well be found for us to leave with a deal before the 31st of october. Thank you very much for your time. Tony lloyd is labours shadow Northern Ireland secretary i asked him if he thought his party would be likely to vote in favour of the deal from what we know so far. 0nce Prime Minister borisjohnson has seemingly shared with the dup, and, of course, with the european union, what the deal is, and the fine print in that, we have not seen that. Now, what, clearly, is the fundamental flaw, is there can be that. Now, what, clearly, is the fundamentalflaw, is there can be no return to a hard border across the island of ireland. Sounds like they have sorted out, backstop has gone. It is good that Boris Johnson has had to accept that the eu would not allow the return of the hard border, with all the danger is that house to the continuation of the peace process. But i am bound to say, as an mp for a northern english seed, there are issues that affect Great Britain and Northern Ireland, issues like, for example, respect for environmental standards, are we going to see corporations moving in and thinking they can pollute our environment . Will we see food standards maintained . Environment . Will we see food standards maintained . Will we see chlorinated chicken coming in from the United States . Are we going to see employment standards that we have taken for granted in the workplace, enshrined by eu law, are those going to be eroded . Eye shadow Northern Ireland secretary, do you understand the concerns of the dup, worrying potentially that nationalists would have too much power on whether Northern Ireland would be continue to be aligned with the eu. That is an issue that we have to see what that looks like in good time. The dup preoccupation about the dup having a veto is not one, clearly, that others would share. What is true is that the Prime Minister can only get his deal through parliament with the next president s arithmetic if the dup and those closest to them, in the conservative party, on board. Very briefly, whatever the deal is, would labour only vote for it if there was a confirmatory referendum attached . Now we have made it quite clear that any deal has to go back to the public for a confirmatory vote, a peoples vote, to say, yes, i think it isa peoples vote, to say, yes, i think it is a good deal, or, a peoples vote that says, no, we reject it. The labour party has always said, any deal has to come from that confirmatory vote. A headteacher prosecuted last month for running an Illegal School has said she is determined to keep it open. Ambassadors high school in south london was found to be operating illegally because it wasnt registered with the government. Its only the Second School to be prosecuted. Nadia ali, who runs the school in streatham, south london, was also found by 0fsted to have wilfully neglected safeguarding the children. Despite the prosecution, neither 0fsted, the local authority nor the court have the power to close it. 0fsted estimates that as many as 6,000 children are currently being educated in illegal unregistered schools. Nadia ali has given her first interview to our reporter zoe conway. At the end of a row of shops in streatham, south london, a School Hidden from view, the only clue it is there is the sound of children playing in the back garden. Ambassadors hire is not registered with the government, it has been operating illegally, its head teacher was prosecuted last month but this private Muslim School is still open. This is the head teacher and this is herfirst still open. This is the head teacher and this is her first interview. Nadia, you have been prosecuted, some people would say, ok, time to close. Why have you decided to stay open . When it comes to the children, the work we have put in place is quite unique, i have been teaching for 15 years, and i have seen how children may be need a different approach. That is what we are trying to do here. That is why i believe in what were trying do, they are happy wearers. Nadia does not normally wearers. Nadia does not normally wear the niqab, she says she wants to keep a low profile. She was sentenced to community service, last month, but the court could not order the school to close, neither could 0fsted or the local authority. The school which caters for four to 14 year olds has twice applied to be government registered. Twice, it has been rejected by 0fsted for not meeting the Independent Schools standards. In february this year, 0fsted inspectors found there was no plan in place to actively promote fundamental British Values. They said the head teacher, nadia ali, had wilfully neglected to meet some basic crucial safeguarding responsibilities. They found six out of 11 teachers had not been criminal record checked. They said teachers do not have the skills to help pupils progress. They concluded there was no capacity for improvement at the school. Nadia rejects the findings by 0fsted. The time, when we had the inspection, all members of staff that were working at ambassadors we re that were working at ambassadors were checked thoroughly. Why did they think six have not been checked . At that time we only had four members of staff at school, the staff that had left, they were still on the central record. I dont know, i dont know what happened. We tried to explain it to the inspector. What number is it . Number ten . To explain it to the inspector. What number is it . Numberten . What to explain it to the inspector. What number is it . Number ten . What does numberten mean . Well done. Your turn, now. Last year, inspectors found books in the staff room encouraged parents to hit their children, if they do not pray. They also found books that said that a wife does not have the right to deny her husband. But, they did not find evidence that children had access to these books. Do those books still exist . No, no, basically, we had loads of books donated to us and we were in the progress of getting the Building Works done to prepare this building for registration as a school. Everything was kept in the office, and it was locked. I did not have a chance to do quota cheques, go through every single thing, to see which is suitable and which is not for the school. You would accept thatis for the school. You would accept that is not suitable . Of course. The reason im talking about this, it feeds into this idea that, actually, you do not want this school to be pa rt you do not want this school to be part of modern british society. dont believe that, just by finding some books or a paragraph from a book like that, makes us go against the fundamental British Values. We are not. We are part of the society. There is nothing in the British Values that goes against the teachings of this this religion, respecting democracy. Talk about that, we have taken the children to the parliament. We have spoken about politics, we have talked about the recent political issues that happen. I dont really believe that is what we wa nt i dont really believe that is what we want to do. One parent told us, off camera, that one reason she did not want her child to go to a Mainstream School is because they promote homosexuality. So, how can this school stay open. It argues it is not breaking the law, because it operates part time, for 18 hours a week only, and so does not have to register with the government. Pa rents told register with the government. Parents told us they like this flexible approach, they like feeling in control of what their children are learning. This is the only pa rent are learning. This is the only parent that would talk to us on camera. The closest school for me was streatham, here, when i found out about it, i thought, that is great, ican out about it, i thought, that is great, i can do the home aired, he gets to socialise, come to school. Its i believe he is not missing out on anything. It solves everything for me. I can do the home ed. These pupils used to learn the koran, in school, now they are taught at the mosque opposite, nadia says these classes are led by pa rents says these classes are led by parents but the School Website asks pa rents to parents but the School Website asks parents to pay £80 a month for these lessons. It is not clear how many hours a week this school is operating. 0ver hours a week this school is operating. Over the road at the mosque, pupils are getting two hours of religious instruction every day. Two doors down, behind this red glass, parents say they are running a Home School Tuition club. And then, there is this timetable. For pupils aged between 11 and 14. It adds up to 21 hours a week. 0n the wall is a timetable and its very clear how many hours each day they do, and it adds up to 21 hours. How does it add up to 21 hours . Because it says monday, ten until one, tencel three for three days, and then friday. Thats strange, because they dont come in on friday. So there is no one student doing those hours in the school . At the moment the school does not open over 18 hours at all. Nadia is determined to keep the school open. She says she is getting her paperwork in order. She is applying, once again to register the school in a few weeks time. Lets speak now to 0fsteds chief inspector amanda spielman. Good morning to you. How can that head teacher get away with running an Illegal School . Isnt itjust staggering . Here is a school that has failed twice to come anywhere near meeting the Independent School standards. 0ur reports are a litany of failure on almost every front on the head has been prosecuted for operating an Illegal School and is looking for legal quibbles to claim its not still running as a school and its worth remembering that the chief magistrate in the prosecution of the school found the evidence was unreliable and that she was an evasive witness and now she says she is going to apply again. I think it is going to apply again. I think it is something we should be so concerned about, that people like this think they are entitled to defy the law. Extraordinary. Do you believe her when she says the timetable is not 21 hours, it is under 18 hours. Timetable is not 21 hours, it is under18 hours. I dont timetable is not 21 hours, it is under 18 hours. I dont have any direct evidence but what we have seen so far, and the evidence given, the case bought by is something we should not be uncomfortable about here. Close it down then. I wish we could. The one thing is that the law never contemplated people deliberately keeping schools open in breach of the law. What we can do is issue a warning notice and the expectation when the mechanism was created was that, that people would wa nt to created was that, that people would want to bring the school back into compliance but the reality is we have schools like this that dont wa nt to have schools like this that dont want to operate within the law and nobody has the power to close them. Neither of us, nor the department of educational local authorities. So the government cannot even close down on Illegal School . There is no general power to close down something not registered as a school. If it claims it is not a school, nobody has that power. And when the head teacher says, look, we are trying a different approach with our kids and the children are responding, you say what . We found that the teachers there were unskilled when we had inspected and we found the most basic checks were not being done and anybody who works in the school will know that one of the things you are required to do is collect a cv for every teacher and check references and this has not been done according to our inspection for a single teacher in the school. The most basic things that anybody taking responsibility for children should know and understand are not taken care of. So the law has to change, is that what you are calling for . We need several things. We need a better definition ofa things. We need a better definition of a school and ive been saying this for some time, its just too easy to fiddle around at the margins and claim something is not a school when it is plainly the main place that children are getting educated. If it is the main place of education, its a school and we should be able to proceed on that line. The second thing is, clearly, when people are operating illegally and threatening child rens when people are operating illegally and threatening Childrens Health or safety or welfare in some way, as we found here there should be somebody who needs to have powers to make it loads, and thirdly i think we should have serious consideration for people who are carrying on operating an Illegal School and convicted of doing so. How can they be suitable people to run a school . Bizarre. The department for education said 0fsted had been given £3 million to look at unregulated schools and make sure justice is delivered. Are you not losing using the money effectively or smartly enough . We absolutely are but the lack of power is in the law. We reviewing 500 establishments and visited 250 and we issued 70 warning notices and we have got the cps to take prosecutions forward. We have had three sets of prosecutions and convictions, so this is coming more to the attention of different authorities but we are still handicapped by the inability to protect children by closing these establishments. What is the motivation of this head teacher to wa nt to motivation of this head teacher to want to keep running it . What is the motivation of parents who send their children there . Its a complex mixture of things. Its very hard to say. Sometimes i think there are pressures within communities and sometimes there are concerns about other schools and there can be a whole range of things, but at the end of the day, nobody should be fooled into thinking a place that is clearly not educating children properly and not looking after them properly and not looking after them properly is a sensible place to entrust their children. And who to blame for the fact that a woman convicted of running an Illegal School is to all intents and purposes continuing to run an Illegal School . Where does the responsible itty lie . Blame is not the right work but the Legal Framework has to reflect the world as it now is not the world when this set of laws was created. Thanks for coming on the programme. Amanda spielman, the chief inspector of schools and head of 0fsted. Thank you for your comments, especially on Extinction Rebellion, and theres a number of you who support Extinction Rebellion but you think what happened this morning was a really stupid thing to do and im quoting nathan here. We will show you the pictures again of people on top of tube trains, three east london tube stations were targeted on various Extinction Rebellion protesters were on the top and as we will show you any second now commuters were pulling the demonstrators off the roofs. Nathan says, im part of Extinction Rebellion but this was a really stupid thing to do. From the start most of us were opposed to it but it somehow went ahead anyway. So hopefully those responsible will learn their lesson. There is clearly a split within Extinction Rebellion. Josh says, i am an avid supporter of Extinction Rebellion but this is just stupid. We are going to lose a lot of support. Somebody who does not leave their name says, attacked for protecting the planet . Attack because commuters will be late for work . There wont be work to go to when life ends. Bertie says, im a gardener, and normally i would support Extinction Rebellion but protesting on the top of trains seems really stupid. It is the green option. Go in protest at a truck stop. Breaking news in from the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, stop. Breaking news in from the Prime Minister, borisjohnson, who has tweeted this, we have got a great new deal that takes back control. Now parliament should get brexit done on saturday so we can move brexit done on saturday so we can m ove o nto brexit done on saturday so we can move onto other priorities like the cost of living, the nhs, Violent Crime and our environment. That justin, the Prime Minister has announced on twitter that he has got his brexit deal which is interesting, because only moments ago we were talking to a senior conservative who was worried about the dup not being on board but Boris Johnson has said on twitter in the last few seconds that we have a great new deal that takes back control and now parliament should get brexit done on saturday so we can move onto other priorities like the cost of living, the nhs, Violent Crime our environment. And i will give you reaction. Hopefully norman will be coming up any second now and i will review some messages from you on brexit. This text says and it came in before the announcement from borisjohnson, well done, came in before the announcement from Boris Johnson, well done, the came in before the announcement from borisjohnson, well done, the dup, they are defending the good friday agreement. Gordon says this, ireland and Northern Ireland are and have a lwa ys and Northern Ireland are and have always been a stumbling block or we would have been out of the eu by now. Trying to satisfy the Northern Irish needs while trying not to upset irelands needs is extremely difficult and fragile. The good friday agreement has to be maintained to reduce the risk of returning Northern Ireland back to the barricades and it must be avoided at all cost for the sake of the Northern Irish people who voted to remain in the eu. Leaving on the 3ist to remain in the eu. Leaving on the 31st with no deal is not a solution and will see the return of borders and will see the return of borders and therefore the potential to reignite the troubles. Lets talk to norman. Wright, the deal is now done, norman. Ten minutes ago we thought the deal was in the wastepaper basket, but now it looks like it is on. Borisjohnson has said in the last few seconds tweeting that we have a great new deal that takes back control. Jean Claude Juncker says where there isa jean Claude Juncker says where there is a will there is a deal. So game on, it seems, and somehow, despite the dup this morning at 6 50am saying they could not put up with it, here we are, 10 40am and somehow their concerns would seem to have been addressed. We are slightly in limbo land because no one has heard yet from the dup. So either the dup have been squared and borisjohnson has met the concerns over issues of consent. For Boris Johnson has met the concerns over issues of consent. For borisjohnson and the eu are trying to strong arm the dup into backing an agreement, saying theyve agreed this and we are all happy, its all signed off, almost trying to stampede them into backing it. The short answer is we do not know which is to true because we havent heard from the dup but where we we re havent heard from the dup but where we were just havent heard from the dup but where we werejust ten havent heard from the dup but where we were just ten or 15 minutes ago where it seemed like it was game over and the deal was not happening and the saturday sitting not happening now, crikey, its all on again. Lets assume the dup are on board, somehow, because the Prime Minister says we have a great new deal that takes back control. What does it mean on saturday . It will mean if Boris Johnson does it mean on saturday . It will mean if borisjohnson has got a deal, he will bring it back to the commons and heading to showtime. There will be a lot of mps who will be unhappy when they have an added text in parliament to study and the mps dont know what they are voting for. They also see another emerging battle coming on saturday and that is because this morning we learnt that the labour party are increasingly likely to back a confirmatory referendum, which means they would only give the approval to Boris Johnsons they would only give the approval to borisjohnsons deal they would only give the approval to Boris Johnsons deal if they would only give the approval to borisjohnsons deal if he put it out for a referendum on why this matters is that the chances of that getting a parliamentary majority would be pretty minimal. With official labour party backing, and if the labour party whips its mps to support it, it becomes much more of a knife edge vote, so it is possible that you could have the Super Saturday clash and Opposition Mps could, its still a reach, could tag ona could, its still a reach, could tag on a referendum to any borisjohnson deal. So we are heading for one humongous showdown on saturday it seems. Stay with us, because i am just getting this from the dup. They say our earlier statement still stands in response to news that a deal has been done. I was a bit perplexed about how the dup could do the somersault. These are not minor concerns, these are hulking great reservations they have about their future in the uk, and the idea that ina future in the uk, and the idea that in a couple of phone calls that they would be bowled over was curious. We will unpick that, because we also have this letter from jean Claude Juncker which i can show you, and he has tweeted, and i cannot read the writing, but the tweet says, where there is a will, there is a deal. We have one. Its a fair and balanced agreement for the eu and uk and it is testament to our commitment to find solutions. I recommend that we endorse this deal. So, brussels is happy, Boris Johnson is endorse this deal. So, brussels is happy, borisjohnson is happy, but the dup are not. Therefore there is no deal. I question, buti the dup are not. Therefore there is no deal. I question, but i dont know, whether this is a bit of gamesmanship on the part of Boris Johnson to try and bulldoze the dup back on board, in other words to say, brussels is happy, they are prepared to sign off on it. Im prepared to sign off on it. Im prepared to sign off on it. Im prepared to sign off on it. The only problem is you guys. In other words, massively cranking up the pressure on the dup to back down. As things stand they are not yet on board, and i surmise, just to really turn up the heat on the dup to try and get them on board because everyone else is on board. But from what we know of the dup and from what we know of Arlene Foster, she plays hardball as well. Theresa may was faced down by Arlene Foster and Boris Johnson well. Theresa may was faced down by Arlene Foster and borisjohnson has been having talks with Arlene Foster on monday and tuesday and wednesday and he still has not managed to get her to back off and we come back to the point that for the dup this is not just another negotiation. The point that for the dup this is notjust another negotiation. This is their lifeblood. This is the lifeblood and where they stand so they are not going to be rushed into backing something they believe threatens their fundamental purpose, which is to ensure that Northern Ireland remains part of the union. And if they think this deal threatens that, they will not sign up, and it doesnt matter how hard borisjohnson tries to push them into it, so my guess is he will have to come up with some kind of significant shift to meet their concerns, but the danger is you lose brussels and dublin. I would urge a bit of caution despite every body saying its a deal. Im getting notifications on my phone saying a brexit deal has been agreed between the eu and the uk. For those tuning injust now, the eu and the uk. For those tuning in just now, its worth going over what has happened in the last few minutes. Borisjohnson what has happened in the last few minutes. Boris johnson has what has happened in the last few minutes. Borisjohnson has tweeted, and we can show that tweet, we got a great new deal that takes back control. Now parliament should get brexit done on saturday so we can move brexit done on saturday so we can m ove o nto brexit done on saturday so we can move onto other priorities like the cost of living, the nhs, Violent Crime and our environment. And then about five minutes later, we get this from the dup and we knew they we re this from the dup and we knew they were the spanner in the works, if i can put it like that and had serious issues of consent. The dup says, our earlier statement still stands in response to news that a deal has been re reach. Then a tweet from jean Claude Juncker which i hope been re reach. Then a tweet from jean claudejuncker which i hope we can show you because i havent got that in front of me, suggesting where there is a wheel a will, there is a deal. Its a fair and balanced agreement for the uk are and uk and its a testament to our commitment to find solutions. Words from borisjohnson commitment to find solutions. Words from Boris Johnson and jean Claude Juncker saying a deal has been done, but not so according to the dup. Norman, you are suggesting that borisjohnson is norman, you are suggesting that Boris Johnson is kind norman, you are suggesting that borisjohnson is kind of twisting the arm behind the back of Arlene Foster, the leader of the dup, and we we re foster, the leader of the dup, and we were discussing whether in fact she was the sort of person who could succumb to such pressure. You know, i would suggest this was back backfire spectacularly, because knowing the dup, i dont think they will take kindly to an attempt to bounce them into sign up to something which, as i say, they have profound reservations over, because asi profound reservations over, because as i said, it cuts to the core of what are about. I just wonder if the strategist in downing street have actually called this right, because i think there is every chance, far from getting the dup to blink, they will dig from getting the dup to blink, they willdig in from getting the dup to blink, they will dig in even harder which will make the prospect of a deal even less likely, because lets be clear about this, there will not be a deal u nless about this, there will not be a deal unless the dup support it. That is just an arithmetical fact. Boris johnson will not get the numbers to get a deal, unless he has the dup on board. So there would be no point putting this deal before the house on saturday . The only way he could conceivably get it through is if you suddenly saw a whole load of labour mps coming on board, and that has a lwa ys mps coming on board, and that has always been a wish for borisjohnson and theresa may, that labour mps in lead constituencies would support thejohnson deal lead constituencies would support the johnson deal and get lead constituencies would support thejohnson deal and get out. And they would do that if they thought there was a chance of getting the deal through. They will not throw themselves off the parapet if there is no chance of getting the deal through and i dont see theres any chance of getting the deal through without the backing of the dup. This seems to be an attempt to try and muscle the dup on board by saying, brussels are happy with the deal, we are happy with the deal, the whole world is happy with the deal, why are you not happy with the deal, all in an attempt to get them on board, but, you know, everything we know about the dup is that is not how they operate. They are not the kind of people who are cowed by people shouting at them. They are quite happy to be unpopular, quite happy to receive brickbats and stones. And on an issue like this, as i say, which for them is about the union, they are not going to back off easily. And i think there is a real dangerfrom downing easily. And i think there is a real danger from downing streets easily. And i think there is a real dangerfrom downing streets point of view that this actually backfires and reinforces their determination to make a stand. So who is caught is the ball in right now . to make a stand. So who is caught is the ball in right now . I would say it must surely be in Boris Johnsons, because brussels have what they believe is a deal after all this torturous negotiation. They have moved, and they have moved, theyve accepted the idea of consent and moved on the backstop and the withdrawal agreement, so they will not see it as theirjob to get the dup on board. The task of getting the dup on board is borisjohnsons job, so he, somehow has to do something, come up with some sort of proposal which will allay their concerns. Instead, he seems to be going down a different avenue which is metaphorically to shout at them to pull themselves together stop and i dont think that is really going to work with the dup. So the issue is over consent. Can you explain for our viewers why the dup are not on board with this deal . Its complicated, but its also very, very simple. The dup want stormont, the Northern Ireland assembly which has been suspended for the past two or three years, to have a say on these new customs arrangements, which theyre not very happy about, but which they are kind of prepared to live with. They say they have to have the right to get out of the arrangements if they dont like them. In other words, they dont wa nt to them. In other words, they dont want to be trapped in them indefinitely. The eu said initially they were not having that because we decide what our rules and regulations are. Theyve made the concession to say, ok, we will let stormont have a say and it will have to give its consent. But the way they say stormont should give its consent is through a simple majority vote in the assembly. That might see more fairand vote in the assembly. That might see more fair and dandy but the problem with the dup is that it would enable the nationalist parties working with some of the smaller parties to get a majority, and that means the nationalists could vote to keep Northern Ireland in this customs arrangement with the eu, forever nda, and theres nothing the dup could do about it. Thats the complicated part forever and a day. The easy part from the point of view of the dup is they would be trapped in an arrangement that over time, they fear, in terms of political and economic gravity, that would increasingly pull them towards brussels and dublin and away from london. In other words, brussels and dublin and away from london. In otherwords, it brussels and dublin and away from london. In other words, it would threaten, potentially, Northern Irelands place in the united kingdom, and that, for them, is a blood red line. Brilliantly explain, norman. Stay there and we will have a quick word with adam fleming who is in a quick word with adam fleming who isina a quick word with adam fleming who is in a taxi in brussels, i think. Adam, hello. Hi, victoria. We thought the announcement might come a bit later in the day and the whole thing is around the dup made people in brussels think there would be a deal at all today, but the Prime Minister has honestly decided to press the button regardless. But the dup are not on board. You brussels know that . Yes, they do. They went through this with theresa may in december 2017, so theyve had experience of this before and they knew that parliamentary consent in the uk is not guaranteed, which is why yesterday some Member States we re why yesterday some Member States were saying, hang on, should the eu hold back and wait for the vote in parliament on saturday to see if the deal gets through and i spoke to a diplomatic couple of minutes ago who said that today does not really matter. Its what happens at westminster on saturday will stop 0k. 0k, ok, if the deal is not backed on saturday, then what, from the point of view of the eu . The first thing to say is i dont think there will be any further concessions from the eu andl be any further concessions from the eu and i dont think they will come back to the negotiating table for a fifth or sixth time and this is the la st fifth or sixth time and this is the last deal they are prepared to offer and then they would either be preparing for no deal or considering the extension Boris Johnson preparing for no deal or considering the extension borisjohnson would be compelled to send to brussels under the so called ben act which was passed by mps a few weeks ago to prevent no deal happening. Where are you going now, adam . The bbc office so you going now, adam . The bbc office sol you going now, adam . The bbc office so i can go and be on more programmes. Hurray, thank you, we need you, all day. Thank you for joining us. Norman, there will be some who suggest that the dup are effectively holding the country to ransom and that people who really wa nt to ransom and that people who really want to deal and leave with a deal, they have a lot of power. What is they have a lot of power. What is the ardent against that . Well, they are right what is the argument against that. The dup will absolutely face a backlash i suspect in their own community from some businesses and farmers who are worried about the possibility of a ha rd worried about the possibility of a hard border and would rather like to have an orderly exit but it comes back to this fact that for the dup, this is what they are about. Its not an appropriate analogy, but its like the Catholic Church not having a pope, it isjust where like the Catholic Church not having a pope, it is just where they are and they are not going to budge on anything which they think in any way threatens the union, and what makes it harder still for Boris Johnson threatens the union, and what makes it harder still for borisjohnson is that there are people in the erg, brexiteers, who will take their lead from the dup and say, ok if the dup are worried it threatens the union, we are worried as well, so the numbers begin to slide against Boris Johnson, and if it wasnt already pretty much impossible, once you put ona pretty much impossible, once you put on a few brexiteers voting against them, i cant see how it gets through. And its ok for Boris Johnson to say weve got a deal and we will press on to saturday, but it kind of falls into the category of boris saying we are living on 0ctober boris saying we are living on october the 31st even if i have to signa october the 31st even if i have to sign a letter saying were staying untiljanuary sign a letter saying were staying until january the 31st. Sign a letter saying were staying untiljanuary the 31st. Its not clear how and if he will do this and i suspect that this is kind of what he would like to happen and whether it is what actually happens is altogether more questionable because one thing i have been told is that borisjohnson will not hold a vote u nless borisjohnson will not hold a vote unless he is confident of winning it andi unless he is confident of winning it and i do not see how he can be confident of winning it unless he has got the dup on board. And whether saturday goes ahead is still very much up in the air. Ok. Im just getting more statements here and there is one from jo swinson and i got the e mail that theres no statement and here it is the leader of the liberal democrats, and she wa nts to of the liberal democrats, and she wants to stop brexit and says the fight to stop brexit is far from over and Boris Johnsons deal would be bad for our economy, Public Services and environment. The next few days will set the direction of our country for generations and i am more determined than ever to stop brexit. When this deal comes to parliament, we will use every possible opportunity to give the public a peoples vote on the brexit deal that includes the option to remain in the european union. A fairly predictable statement from the leader of the lib dems, continuing with their campaign to get some sort of referendum attached to any deal, but the way we are talking at the moment, a deal will not get passed on saturday anyway. No, and the other thing to say is that the momentum building behind a referendum is beginning to gather a bit of steam, notjust because labour look like they will now back this so full so called confirmatory referendum, but crucially there are those 21 tory mps who were hooked out of the tory party, a lot of them, now, have come round to the idea that actually the only way to resolve this is to have another referendum, so much so that even a figure like ken clarke, who his whole political life has argued against referendums because he thinks thejob of against referendums because he thinks the job of mps is to make decisions and for parliament to make decisions, not to hand everything over to popular votes, even he has now come round to the idea of a referendum, so when you have labour plus, probably, quite a significant number of those former tories backing another referendum and you have the snp and the liberal democrats, that vote becomes very, very close indeed and so the calculations borisjohnson now has to make is notjust if he goes for the saturday sitting and if hes going to lose, but whether he will end up with a referendum as well, so you know, the stakes are colossal, and even all that, i would not be at all surprised if borisjohnson decides to pull back, regroup, have a bit more time, a few more days, get back to westminster, talk to the dup then go back to brussels with some sort of revised package and try again, because if he goes for the saturday sitting, he could go down in flames saturday sitting, he could go down inflames and saturday sitting, he could go down in flames and lose his deal and for the brexit deal to go down for a fourth time could potentially be a game over moment. More than that, he could find himself facing Parliament Backing another referendum, so, you know, jo swinson is right in that sense, if saturday goes ahead, it is going to be a massive moment in the history of this country. Wow. Weve had a few of those in the last few yea rs, had a few of those in the last few years, but this is the second conservative Prime Minister who at the final moment and weve only got a few seconds left, norman, has been hobbled by the dup. Yes. What does it tell us . I mean, it tells us firstly, never ever take the dup for granted. Boris johnson is, firstly, never ever take the dup for granted. Borisjohnson is, ithink, trying his best not to do that and has had endless talks with Arlene Foster over the past few days, but surely what underpins all this is that we have a profoundly divided parliament and that is why this is still on a knife edge. Thank you, norman. Lets go live to brussels. Im nuala mcgovern, in brussels, where the breaking news this hour is the eu and the uk say theyve agreed a new brexit deal. The Prime Minister says hes got a great new deal that takes back control and he urges parliament to back it. The president of the european commission, jean Claude Juncker, hails the deal as a fair and balanced agreement but in the last few minutes, Northern Irelands Democratic Unionist Party has said it still cant back the deal as things stand